Modern day trainers worth their weight in salt denounce any training methods that use hitting, kicking, closeting, etc.
It's been proven that hitting an animal teaches obedience only when the trainer is around.. It's also been proven that the animals who were hit are no good for things like police work, rescue or companion animals...because they eventually turn.
I used the "wooden spoon" on my daughter twice on her calf as recommended by twi according to the word, ya know spare the rod deal... she was so terrified even if i gestured to the drawer 'it' was kept in... i finally took 'it' out and told her "...no more wooden spoon" and broke it in half and tossed the god damned thing in the trash can!!!
oh yeah... and her response was a hug around my legs
I will never forget that day EVER!!!
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on February 05, 2004 at 13:45.]
I have been a dog breeder and trainer for many years... and my mother was an obedience instructor. Modern dog training methods are based on positive reinforcement, with the rare mild punishment when truly necessary.
However... that said, and my two kids grown, I see how the Lord raises His children - the Law is for the unruly, my flesh is overlooked, except when it joins with spirit in rebellion, then He speaks. Today I would want to bring the same freedom and love to my children (and now grandchild) that the Lord has shown me. He does not punish me for being human or foolish, He corrects me (as you correct the course of a boat) when I stray from the things He has given me. His corrections always bring me greater peace and freedom, they are not to put me into bondage.
The only way I would be under death or bondage is if I truly turned away from Him in my heart and chose that for myself, knowing what I was doing... I pray that I am never that crazy.
My salvation and my shaping by the Lord are a thing of joy, of love, He doesn't beat me, why would I want to beat those I love? I read the things posted about TWI and I am appalled at the way they treat people. That is not God.
I have never heard of or seen anyone spanking a child on the calf!!
Also I have never seen anyone spank someone elses child (SHAME on Bob M.)
I myself would spank my child if he was extremely stubborn, but usually he would do what I said after I said it two or three times and just show him the wooden spoon. I would also spank my nephew if I was babysitting him and would recommend that my sister do so, but I never spanked him with the wooden spoon if my sister was present. SHAME on the people who beat their children to the point of bruising and bleeding!!!!I used to take offense at believers spanking their child if their child disobeyed after being told something once. I was always more lenient, but I feel somewhat guilty at using the spoon at all.
quote:VP gave such a demonstration to the 6th Corps. Showed how he trained his dog to obey immediately on the first command and said most people's dogs are better trained than their children. Suggested the same principles in raising kids. Tell them once and if they disobey, smack 'em with a wooden spoon.
And then, on the other hand, there Was Joanne Anderson. . .
I had this kid in childrens fellowship who was Really a tough one. . . and I needed to go see Joanne for something (we were in Sacramento at the time, and Joanne lived in Oakland). . .
So I asked the mom if she and xxxx would like to ride down with me and meet Joanne.
Mom said yes. . .
When we got to Joanne's house the kid was screaming. . .
I looked helplessly at Joanne, and she said to the kid, come here, you look like you need a good....
(scroll down)
Hug.
Which she gave him, and an extra long time on her kind loving lap. . .
And I don't know what Joanne did, but the kid was never the same. . .
I work with kids that have been treated like animals. Let me tell you what becomes of their lives.
1. When a child is not nurtured well and is emotionally and phisically neglected,and or abused (he/she) go into survival mode. This causes a whole slue of cemistry embalances in the brain. IRREVERSABLE
2. When that child starts to devolope mentally, there is a level of fight or flight that happens 24-7. Part anxiety, part anger. Anxiety steaming from the next moment of neglect or bout of violence. Anger because the child is helpless and is continually fustrated about his/her condition.
3. By the time this child this child is 5-6, there is no human bonding(lacks any kind of trust), lack social skill, is uncontrolably angry and is still in a survival mode. Also is not sad for someone elses misfortune. Little or no remorse.
4. Usually this child is so disruptive they cannot attend public school. He/She take delight in provoking peers and learns real quick the can do about anything they want. They become very edepth at not getting caught at minor offense.
4. By the time they are adults if there has been no intervention, they become criminal in there lifestyle and or addicts which leads to criminal behavior. Prognosis is incarceration or death by cicumstances.
The best we can do on a social level is give them Meds to augment the chemical embalance, provide a safe enviorment to live in and do some intensive behavior modification. But unfortunatly some residential are abusive in there management of these kids too.
Train your child like a dog? VePeW thank God your wife raised your kids. While you were to busy "Working the Word" your kids escaped the best of your training. If I was your child I would be totally embarrased by you
I know of a child, when I was in grade school, who was so quiet that he refused to talk to anyone unless he was spoken to, and then only to answer the question. He rarely caused any trouble at all, and when he was involved in some sort of row, he would apologize profusely even if it wasn't his fault. This boy hated kneeling, and when he was young would cry whenever he saw a cross with Jesus' body on it. Even at school, he would NOT defend himself from even the smallest of bullies. Because of this, he would often come home bruised or desheveled in some way, and sometimes out of breath from having been chased home by some bully or group of harassers.
As I understand it, his father was a strict Catholic, and his mother was a Southern Baptist that had converted to Catholicism when they were married. They didn't believe in spanking except in the most extreme of cases. Whenever he got into something or did something that he wasn't supposed to do, his father would make him kneel in front of the household cross and say 1 to 15 decades of the Rosary out loud for each offense. When Dad wasn't around, Mom would stand him in a corner and dare him to even so much as turn his head under the threat that Dad would be told and would punish him further if he did so.
Whenever he struck back at any of his siblings, whether he was at fault or not, he (he was the oldest) and the sibling would be punished together and would be told to turn the other cheek rather than fight. Try as they might, the teachers at the Catholic school he went to were at a loss to explain why he was always in his own little world, and would balk at answering questions in front of his classmates. One of his younger brothers failed the first grade for this very same reason, he wouldn't participate in class.
Then came that day when a young man at school took his bike from him, and rode it around him taunting him that he was going to keep it and that he knew he would do nothing about it. The young man was wrong. The boy suddenly became enraged and almost killed the young man. It took 3 teenagers to pull him off of the young man and hold him until he calmed down. The young man was sent to the hospital, and thank God he lived.
After that, the boy became increasingly hostile to most everyone who had abused him. He even threatened to beat up his own mother at one point. He may have become a criminal, but he had seen his rebellious younger brother (not the one who failed the first grade) who was running with the street gangs and doing drugs and alcohol, getting into so much trouble that he decided not to go that way. He finally moved out of his parents home at the age of 19 (6 months after graduating High School) when he was drafted into the US Army.
I have seen him since then, when he comes home to visit. He's married, but hasn't set foot in a church since that time, except for his daughter's baptism and first holy communion, and an occasional wedding or funeral.
I know what you mean Imbus, although he told me that he has never been to any kind of therapy about it. He simply learned how to deal with it on his own.
My point, though, is that some abused people become unusually quiet and overly cooperative instead of being unruly, mean, and nasty. Kinda like the guy Kenny Rogers sang about in the song "Coward of the County". He held it all in until one day he just exploaded (although the circumstances of the abuse in that song were quite a bit different).
I cringe to think/type this..but I too swallowed the junk--"Obey first time. If we don't train our children to obey first time then they won't hear God when He tells them to do something."
I have repeated this when disciplining children. I would think it could cause them to resent God since that is why their parents are forcing them to obey immediately.
When I've been involved in training my dogs, I spent time with concentrated focus on the behavior I was trying to elicit. that means that I would give a word or command, watch, repeat, watch, repeat, reward, repeat, watch, repeat, and reward!
There is a lot of repeating that goes on until the good behavior becomes second nature. That takes time and it takes as long as it takes. And there is a lot of reward too. A tug on the leash is about as heavy handed as I got, but that tug plus the command would give him the direction with reinforcement.
Most people, when they "spank" usually do it in a REactive mode with anger. Training or raising children or animals is in a PROactive mode. You should be training in a positive approach, rather than an approach where you lie in wait just to strike them and get them to submit in fear.
I used to think that VP should feel the whack(s) of a wooden spoon on his bare hiney! And, a spoon with holes in so that there would be no wind resistance!
I once saw WC grads beat their 1-year-old daughter repeatedly with a spoon because she wouldn't apologize for throwing pebbles.
WG I have a problem believing this as a one year old does not talk and they would never understand what apologize even means. Sorry but this one is over the top.
I've raised exactly one kid and trained exactly one dog.
We never physically punished the girl until she was 2 or 3 and then only 4 or 5 times. We didn't need to. Now I've seen kids that probably needed way more than that, but not ours. BTW, the girl didn't have much of a clue as to what a good kid she was and what good parents we were until she worked in a toy store for a year.
As to the dog, we never hit him as a puppy. He was a working terrier and was expected to hunt and patrol by himself. We were warned that we could loose his trust forever by striking him. A loud scolding was enough to get an intense reaction from him. As he got older and quite a bit more stubborn, a little tap on his butt was occasionally needed to get him going in the right direction, but I wouldn't call that hitting him.
I really don't understand the instant response thing about training dogs. To me, one of the great pleasures of having a dog is walking with him and watching him respond to the things that I can't hear or smell. That sorta implies that the dog can think for himself.
The little girl was actually close to 2 years of age. I think her birthday was in September. Her mother is a graduate of the 6th Way Corps, her father is a graduate of spouse corps. They were twig coordinators in Everett Washington. This happened at ROA 1993. A** had thrown some of those tiny white pebbles they put around the electrical outlet posts at my son. He asked her to stop after the second time. She did it again. Her mother told her to stop, made her put the pebbles she still had in her hand back, and told her to apologize to my son. She whacked her several times on the calf with her spoon. She cried but refused to apologize. The father took over. He beat the crap out of that kid. Her mother later privately showed me her legs, which is when I could see the swollen flesh, early bruising and blood running under the skin. She asked me if I thought V***, her husband, might have hit A** a bit too hard. I told her she was going to bruise pretty good and she might want to put long pants on her on the drive back to WA so outsiders wouldn't see the kid's legs and call the authorities.
I had know this couple since 1978, when they met in a college town in Ohio, and eventually got married. Mrs. R**** was thought of as a most exceedingly great and mighty woman of God. Her husband was a very strict disciplinarian. Once I saw him make their oldest boy, 9 at the time, bend over in front of him then he kicked him hard in the buttocks, sending him stumbling across the room. The child gave his father a look of pure hatred for a second, which fortunately his father didn't see.
I'm sorry if you find this hard to believe. I choose to not think you are calling me a liar. However, you were not there, and I saw it happen. Children were required to LISTEN, REMEMBER, OBEY from a very young age, less than a year, usually. First time, no questions asked. If you want to PT or e-mail me, assuming you still think t his is "over the top" I will tell you who they are, but not on an open forum like this.
I did not use their names. They are still standing boldly and fearlessly with TWI, poor fools.
WG
Oh, PS: Whacking the child on the calf, thigh or upper arm, and NOT the buttocks was recommended by DLM, who said hitting the buttocks "makes for bad backs."
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VP gave such a demonstration to the 6th Corps. Showed how he trained his dog to obey immediately on the first command and said most people's dogs are better trained than their children. Suggested th
papajohn
you raise a child, you train a dog.
I don't hit my kid, I don't hit my dog.
my kid loves me and shows me respect. my dog will do anything for me that he's been trained to do.
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CoolWaters
Modern day trainers worth their weight in salt denounce any training methods that use hitting, kicking, closeting, etc.
It's been proven that hitting an animal teaches obedience only when the trainer is around.. It's also been proven that the animals who were hit are no good for things like police work, rescue or companion animals...because they eventually turn.
?????????????
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I used the "wooden spoon" on my daughter twice on her calf as recommended by twi according to the word, ya know spare the rod deal... she was so terrified even if i gestured to the drawer 'it' was kept in... i finally took 'it' out and told her "...no more wooden spoon" and broke it in half and tossed the god damned thing in the trash can!!!
oh yeah... and her response was a hug around my legs
I will never forget that day EVER!!!
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on February 05, 2004 at 13:45.]
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Clicker
I have been a dog breeder and trainer for many years... and my mother was an obedience instructor. Modern dog training methods are based on positive reinforcement, with the rare mild punishment when truly necessary.
However... that said, and my two kids grown, I see how the Lord raises His children - the Law is for the unruly, my flesh is overlooked, except when it joins with spirit in rebellion, then He speaks. Today I would want to bring the same freedom and love to my children (and now grandchild) that the Lord has shown me. He does not punish me for being human or foolish, He corrects me (as you correct the course of a boat) when I stray from the things He has given me. His corrections always bring me greater peace and freedom, they are not to put me into bondage.
The only way I would be under death or bondage is if I truly turned away from Him in my heart and chose that for myself, knowing what I was doing... I pray that I am never that crazy.
My salvation and my shaping by the Lord are a thing of joy, of love, He doesn't beat me, why would I want to beat those I love? I read the things posted about TWI and I am appalled at the way they treat people. That is not God.
Carol
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
To hell with the 'wooden spoon' ... what was i thinking.... a bag of 'switches' for Xmas for my daughter...
just a thot
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CircleGame
I have never heard of or seen anyone spanking a child on the calf!!
Also I have never seen anyone spank someone elses child (SHAME on Bob M.)
I myself would spank my child if he was extremely stubborn, but usually he would do what I said after I said it two or three times and just show him the wooden spoon. I would also spank my nephew if I was babysitting him and would recommend that my sister do so, but I never spanked him with the wooden spoon if my sister was present. SHAME on the people who beat their children to the point of bruising and bleeding!!!!I used to take offense at believers spanking their child if their child disobeyed after being told something once. I was always more lenient, but I feel somewhat guilty at using the spoon at all.
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WordWolf
Bumping this back to the top to accompany
the Child Abuse thread.
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excathedra
?
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Tom Strange
WOOF!
I bet Teeks 1&2 kicked his a$$ now and then!
Of course, most of the time they didn't look like they could be bothered by anything... much less the mogfodat
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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Tom Strange
Do you think veepee ever used Teek as a "wingdog"?
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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WordWolf
Clicking this up to join its friends...
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Kit Sober
And then, on the other hand, there Was Joanne Anderson. . .
I had this kid in childrens fellowship who was Really a tough one. . . and I needed to go see Joanne for something (we were in Sacramento at the time, and Joanne lived in Oakland). . .
So I asked the mom if she and xxxx would like to ride down with me and meet Joanne.
Mom said yes. . .
When we got to Joanne's house the kid was screaming. . .
I looked helplessly at Joanne, and she said to the kid, come here, you look like you need a good....
(scroll down)
Hug.
Which she gave him, and an extra long time on her kind loving lap. . .
And I don't know what Joanne did, but the kid was never the same. . .
Hopefully,
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imbus
I work with kids that have been treated like animals. Let me tell you what becomes of their lives.
1. When a child is not nurtured well and is emotionally and phisically neglected,and or abused (he/she) go into survival mode. This causes a whole slue of cemistry embalances in the brain. IRREVERSABLE
2. When that child starts to devolope mentally, there is a level of fight or flight that happens 24-7. Part anxiety, part anger. Anxiety steaming from the next moment of neglect or bout of violence. Anger because the child is helpless and is continually fustrated about his/her condition.
3. By the time this child this child is 5-6, there is no human bonding(lacks any kind of trust), lack social skill, is uncontrolably angry and is still in a survival mode. Also is not sad for someone elses misfortune. Little or no remorse.
4. Usually this child is so disruptive they cannot attend public school. He/She take delight in provoking peers and learns real quick the can do about anything they want. They become very edepth at not getting caught at minor offense.
4. By the time they are adults if there has been no intervention, they become criminal in there lifestyle and or addicts which leads to criminal behavior. Prognosis is incarceration or death by cicumstances.
The best we can do on a social level is give them Meds to augment the chemical embalance, provide a safe enviorment to live in and do some intensive behavior modification. But unfortunatly some residential are abusive in there management of these kids too.
Train your child like a dog? VePeW thank God your wife raised your kids. While you were to busy "Working the Word" your kids escaped the best of your training. If I was your child I would be totally embarrased by you
and your lunatic methods.
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Nomad888
Try this one on for size...
I know of a child, when I was in grade school, who was so quiet that he refused to talk to anyone unless he was spoken to, and then only to answer the question. He rarely caused any trouble at all, and when he was involved in some sort of row, he would apologize profusely even if it wasn't his fault. This boy hated kneeling, and when he was young would cry whenever he saw a cross with Jesus' body on it. Even at school, he would NOT defend himself from even the smallest of bullies. Because of this, he would often come home bruised or desheveled in some way, and sometimes out of breath from having been chased home by some bully or group of harassers.
As I understand it, his father was a strict Catholic, and his mother was a Southern Baptist that had converted to Catholicism when they were married. They didn't believe in spanking except in the most extreme of cases. Whenever he got into something or did something that he wasn't supposed to do, his father would make him kneel in front of the household cross and say 1 to 15 decades of the Rosary out loud for each offense. When Dad wasn't around, Mom would stand him in a corner and dare him to even so much as turn his head under the threat that Dad would be told and would punish him further if he did so.
Whenever he struck back at any of his siblings, whether he was at fault or not, he (he was the oldest) and the sibling would be punished together and would be told to turn the other cheek rather than fight. Try as they might, the teachers at the Catholic school he went to were at a loss to explain why he was always in his own little world, and would balk at answering questions in front of his classmates. One of his younger brothers failed the first grade for this very same reason, he wouldn't participate in class.
Then came that day when a young man at school took his bike from him, and rode it around him taunting him that he was going to keep it and that he knew he would do nothing about it. The young man was wrong. The boy suddenly became enraged and almost killed the young man. It took 3 teenagers to pull him off of the young man and hold him until he calmed down. The young man was sent to the hospital, and thank God he lived.
After that, the boy became increasingly hostile to most everyone who had abused him. He even threatened to beat up his own mother at one point. He may have become a criminal, but he had seen his rebellious younger brother (not the one who failed the first grade) who was running with the street gangs and doing drugs and alcohol, getting into so much trouble that he decided not to go that way. He finally moved out of his parents home at the age of 19 (6 months after graduating High School) when he was drafted into the US Army.
I have seen him since then, when he comes home to visit. He's married, but hasn't set foot in a church since that time, except for his daughter's baptism and first holy communion, and an occasional wedding or funeral.
My 2 cents...
Nomad888
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imbus
NOMAD888, Boy am I glad this kid turned out o.k.
I fear to think what could happen if this man's anger was not theraputiclly handled. I really hope he is truly healed up amotionally.
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Nomad888
I know what you mean Imbus, although he told me that he has never been to any kind of therapy about it. He simply learned how to deal with it on his own.
My point, though, is that some abused people become unusually quiet and overly cooperative instead of being unruly, mean, and nasty. Kinda like the guy Kenny Rogers sang about in the song "Coward of the County". He held it all in until one day he just exploaded (although the circumstances of the abuse in that song were quite a bit different).
My 2 cents...
Nomad888
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WordWolf
By request,
clicking this to the top.
I left the child abuse thread where it was.
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WordWolf
A lot of people never heard of this book,
or forgot about this book.
Here's a reminder.
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penguin
Ok Here's my two cents...
I cringe to think/type this..but I too swallowed the junk--"Obey first time. If we don't train our children to obey first time then they won't hear God when He tells them to do something."
I have repeated this when disciplining children. I would think it could cause them to resent God since that is why their parents are forcing them to obey immediately.
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ChasUFarley
I knew someone who hunted with VPW on several occasions over many years and complained about how badly VPW's dogs behaved - especially Tick!
(Besides, VPW didn't really train his own dogs - he had WC to kennel them and keep them for him!)
Again, a lot of preachin' and no practice!
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Rejoice
When I've been involved in training my dogs, I spent time with concentrated focus on the behavior I was trying to elicit. that means that I would give a word or command, watch, repeat, watch, repeat, reward, repeat, watch, repeat, and reward!
There is a lot of repeating that goes on until the good behavior becomes second nature. That takes time and it takes as long as it takes. And there is a lot of reward too. A tug on the leash is about as heavy handed as I got, but that tug plus the command would give him the direction with reinforcement.
Most people, when they "spank" usually do it in a REactive mode with anger. Training or raising children or animals is in a PROactive mode. You should be training in a positive approach, rather than an approach where you lie in wait just to strike them and get them to submit in fear.
I used to think that VP should feel the whack(s) of a wooden spoon on his bare hiney! And, a spoon with holes in so that there would be no wind resistance!
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LornaDoone
WG I have a problem believing this as a one year old does not talk and they would never understand what apologize even means. Sorry but this one is over the top.
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Jim
What a sad, sad thread.
I've raised exactly one kid and trained exactly one dog.
We never physically punished the girl until she was 2 or 3 and then only 4 or 5 times. We didn't need to. Now I've seen kids that probably needed way more than that, but not ours. BTW, the girl didn't have much of a clue as to what a good kid she was and what good parents we were until she worked in a toy store for a year.
As to the dog, we never hit him as a puppy. He was a working terrier and was expected to hunt and patrol by himself. We were warned that we could loose his trust forever by striking him. A loud scolding was enough to get an intense reaction from him. As he got older and quite a bit more stubborn, a little tap on his butt was occasionally needed to get him going in the right direction, but I wouldn't call that hitting him.
I really don't understand the instant response thing about training dogs. To me, one of the great pleasures of having a dog is walking with him and watching him respond to the things that I can't hear or smell. That sorta implies that the dog can think for himself.
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Watered Garden
for Lorna Doone:
The little girl was actually close to 2 years of age. I think her birthday was in September. Her mother is a graduate of the 6th Way Corps, her father is a graduate of spouse corps. They were twig coordinators in Everett Washington. This happened at ROA 1993. A** had thrown some of those tiny white pebbles they put around the electrical outlet posts at my son. He asked her to stop after the second time. She did it again. Her mother told her to stop, made her put the pebbles she still had in her hand back, and told her to apologize to my son. She whacked her several times on the calf with her spoon. She cried but refused to apologize. The father took over. He beat the crap out of that kid. Her mother later privately showed me her legs, which is when I could see the swollen flesh, early bruising and blood running under the skin. She asked me if I thought V***, her husband, might have hit A** a bit too hard. I told her she was going to bruise pretty good and she might want to put long pants on her on the drive back to WA so outsiders wouldn't see the kid's legs and call the authorities.
I had know this couple since 1978, when they met in a college town in Ohio, and eventually got married. Mrs. R**** was thought of as a most exceedingly great and mighty woman of God. Her husband was a very strict disciplinarian. Once I saw him make their oldest boy, 9 at the time, bend over in front of him then he kicked him hard in the buttocks, sending him stumbling across the room. The child gave his father a look of pure hatred for a second, which fortunately his father didn't see.
I'm sorry if you find this hard to believe. I choose to not think you are calling me a liar. However, you were not there, and I saw it happen. Children were required to LISTEN, REMEMBER, OBEY from a very young age, less than a year, usually. First time, no questions asked. If you want to PT or e-mail me, assuming you still think t his is "over the top" I will tell you who they are, but not on an open forum like this.
I did not use their names. They are still standing boldly and fearlessly with TWI, poor fools.
WG
Oh, PS: Whacking the child on the calf, thigh or upper arm, and NOT the buttocks was recommended by DLM, who said hitting the buttocks "makes for bad backs."
WG
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