I know a dog trainer who fully believes that parents ought to implement her training techniques into the raising of their children. She also uses the techniques on her husband.
Two things come to mind when I think about this...
They don't have any children (by choice...because they didn't want to screw them up...a legitimate concern in their lives). They aren't allowed to babysit their nieces and nephews...or anyone else...anymore. (They watched my son once for 2 hours. He was 8yo at the time. When my hubs and I arrived to pick up my son, they were oh so excited because they had taken pictures of him locked in a dog kennel and were going to put them up on the internet for him...!)
If I remember the book correctly, it basically espouses the idea of beating the hell out of your dog whenever he misbehaves and throwing him a tidbit when he responds in EXACTLY the manner that you desire.
VP gave such a demonstration to the 6th Corps. Showed how he trained his dog to obey immediately on the first command and said most people's dogs are better trained than their children. Suggested the same principles in raising kids. Tell them once and if they disobey, smack 'em with a wooden spoon.
I'll never forget the strange display down in Florida in the home of Bxx and Dxxxxx Mxxxxxxx when their limb secretary's little daughter failed to acknowledge my greeting when I said hello to her.
Literally no one was allowed to move until this child said hello to me. I had to stay there and watch while Bxx knelt in front of this kid and smacked her bottom until she finally said hello. We were there at least 45 minutes, no exaggeration. He would tell her to say hello, she would refuse, and he would smack her. Repeated God knows how many times. Tedious. Succeeded in getting the child to say hello, but more importantly, it did NOT change the child's attitude.
In raising children, we are after their hearts, not just the outward expressions.
Typical for TWI to have it so backward.
Treat the kid like a dog, get someone who will bite the hand that feeds it, IMHO.
The last "service" we attended at an offshoot...the "ministers" humiliated one of their daughters for being too ill to perform that morning. Took her out on the porch and verbally assaulted her...loud enough that we could all hear...then brought her in and made her apologize to us...and perform.
I sat there humiliated that I was doing nothing...not speaking up...not telling her or any of the children there that this is unacceptable behaviour from parents towards children...couldn't even say it for the benefit of my own son.
That was the last straw for me. It was too close to what happened in Alaska...
Gawd - do you remember that painting called "The Trainer"? It looks just like the cover of that book, except it's VP and one of his dogs! Another TWI rip-off of someone else's original idea!
Hope R. color>size>face>
...I don't know who I am but life is for learning... we are stardust...size>face>color>
I once saw WC grads beat their 1-year-old daughter repeatedly with a spoon because she wouldn't apologize for throwing pebbles. When the dad was finished, you could see blood running under the skin of her calves and thighs.
This was at the ROA and I could see 2 sheriff's cars from where I stood, horrified. I wanted to run over there screaming, but I was rooted to the spot and to the notion that this awful man had the God-given right to beat the he11 out of his child. It about half an hour to get her to apologize.
I wondered if they'd taught her not to lie, and were forcing her to do it anyway - she obviously wasn't nearly as sorry for tossing pebbles as she was for getting thrashed like that.
Wonder if explaining to her whyshe shouldn't throw pebbles would've helped?
We have "The Trainer" hanging in our lovely new home! My husband loves that print. However, the good news is that it is hanging where the summer sun will hopefully fade it away to nothing!
You're right! I remember that. It is very similar. Didn't it have a caption at the bottom? Something about "loving obedience." I don't remember anything about "beat the s*** out of 'em till they cry uncle." That version must have been for people "spiritually mature" enough to handle it. ;-)
That's what it says at the bottom of the picture "The Trainer." too bad nobody there believed it. Training with love does not equal beatings of dog or kid.
I suppose my problem with the whole idea (even if you leave out the physical hitting of a child) is that you don't train a dog to be anything more than an obedient dog. You train a child to be an adult which means he has to be able to think and make decision on his own.
Beating a one year old? A 1 year old can barely talk, so how much damage could a 1 year old do to get a beating like that.
He should have been arrested for child abuse. I bet that kid will run away as soon as she is old enough.
I once saw a man beating a baby 6-8 mo. old. I walked up to him and told him if he didn't stop I would call the police and report him, the poor baby's hand looked like it went thru a meat grinder. The mother came up as I was holding the baby who by the way was soaking wet and filthy, she started to rile on me and I just said maybe I should take this baby to leaders and call the police. She shut up and let me change the baby and clean her up a bit, she had a terrible diaper rash. It was all I could do not to smack the both of them. I won't shut up I'll put up the dukes if neccessary.
Is that the 'best' way to raise children? I dont know.
I have been through many courses on handling children (as required to be a state-licensed foster parent). I still beleive in spanking on occassion, but now I also understand a far-wider array of options. I am tired of wall-charts of privledges, weekly lists of chores, getting calls from the school every week, weekly trips to therapists and monthly visits by social workers.
A couple of times after we had left foster children at home with our eldest son, he thanked us for spanking him when he was smaller; he insisted that children raised entirely without it, run out of control.
The children we have now, were neglected, and largely had to raise themselves. When we got them, they (8,7 and 6) did not know how to use a fork. They could however feed themselves on cold cans of olives, or tuna. Thye have had a very difficult time getting used to the idea that a dining room is for eating in, and that everyone can eat at the same time around a common meal or dinner. We have came a long way in domesticating these children and in showing them the value of an education. But still if let out of our eye-sight for a minute they run completely out of control.
They are not allowed to go into any grocery store or any store as a group, we keep them at home and one adult can take one child to a store at a time. Otherwise they run lose, pulling things off shelves, sprinting up and down the aisles, knocking into carts, sampling any food they find, and stuffing their pockets.
On the other hand, I was raised by fairly authoritarian parents. My earliest memory is being 'spanked' with a shovel when I was 4. I have always resented my father, because he had always beaten me with implements (shovel, hoe, horse-whip, block and tackle, cattle-prod, etc). I remember only one time when he did hit me with his fist, it was because he caught me hiding from him, but that was the only time he ever hit me with his hands. He did kick me and stomp on me a few times. I saw him this past summer and asked him about those times. He said that he had to do those things because he had to 'get your attention'. He did not think that he could get my attention or that I could focus on him, without first exhausting himself beating me with an implement.
I remember during the Vietnam War, one of my brothers came home in his army uniform and went out on our tractor and disced an orchard for our father. When our father came home and inspected the orchard he found that the disc had not been set deep enough, so our father went out to my brother, pulled him down off of the tractor, beat him with a cattle-prod and stomped on him. Looking back now, I realize that in my father's eyes he needed to do this before he could explain that the disc had to be set deeper into the ground, as it was his method of 'getting my brother's attention'.
Today I see a possible need at times, for spanking but not all of the time, and not as the only method of disciplining a child. Without any threat of spanking at all, a parent may not carry the authority with a child. I think that the 'threat' of the spanking is enough most times, even when removing a privledge or performing a time-out.
Bless you, May our Heavenly Father bless you in everyway, in the wonderful name of His son and our brother Jesus.
Galen
ET1 SS - USN Retired,
Pilgrim of the Ancient Arabic Order Nobles of the mystic shrine.
and
'University of Life' Alumni
"I live in the spirit of prayer. I pray as I walk, when I lie down, and when I rise. And the answers are always coming. Tens of thousands of times have my prayers been answered. When once I am persuaded that a thing is right, I go on praying for it. the great point is never to give up till the answer comes. The great fault of the children of God is, they do not continue in prayer, they do not persevere. If they desire anything for God's glory, they should pray until they get it." - George Mueller
I just don't know what to say. You got a lotta love, courage, and conviction. We were foster parents too. It isn't easy, forks they don't know and even more importantly, they have no clue what love is.
It makes perfectly good sense to me. Kids are just dogs on two legs - there for the purpose of serving their master (I mean parents) right?
And it fits with the word because we are here to serve our master and father, God. So it's biblical too. Of course, since it's the grace period (or is that grace semi-colon?) God doesn't beat us if we misbehave. But it still makes sense for us to beat our kids and dogs, because it says so in some book.
It's been a long time since I left TWI but the logic is still there.
We had similar experiences being foster parents. It's hard for someone who hasn't been there the challenge of teaching an older child the things many take for granted. Seeing a child who uses a fork like a shovel, poor hygiene, etc. can be very disheartening. It never did and never would occur to me to beat a child. For that matter, making everyone stand around while a forced my daughter to perform like a circus monkey wouldn't either. (As in Catcup's post)
Catcup,
Those parents better hope that kid doesn't come back with a gun in her later years.
Or, worse, treat her kids the same way. LCM used to talk about how we would have to face Jesus at the bema to answer for what we'd done, if it hadn't been forgiven. If that corps couple believed that, imagine the conversation about THAT incident! Hate to be them.
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Catcup
VP gave such a demonstration to the 6th Corps. Showed how he trained his dog to obey immediately on the first command and said most people's dogs are better trained than their children. Suggested th
excathedra
laughing my a.ss off roy
let me think about this a while before i respond
but you are quite perceptive
and funny
?
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CoolWaters
ExC,
I know a dog trainer who fully believes that parents ought to implement her training techniques into the raising of their children. She also uses the techniques on her husband.
Two things come to mind when I think about this...
They don't have any children (by choice...because they didn't want to screw them up...a legitimate concern in their lives). They aren't allowed to babysit their nieces and nephews...or anyone else...anymore. (They watched my son once for 2 hours. He was 8yo at the time. When my hubs and I arrived to pick up my son, they were oh so excited because they had taken pictures of him locked in a dog kennel and were going to put them up on the internet for him...!)
Kids and animals...same diff...right?
Excuse me while I go barf.
?????????????
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George Aar
If I remember the book correctly, it basically espouses the idea of beating the hell out of your dog whenever he misbehaves and throwing him a tidbit when he responds in EXACTLY the manner that you desire.
I guess it works for dogs...
geo.
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Catcup
VP gave such a demonstration to the 6th Corps. Showed how he trained his dog to obey immediately on the first command and said most people's dogs are better trained than their children. Suggested the same principles in raising kids. Tell them once and if they disobey, smack 'em with a wooden spoon.
I'll never forget the strange display down in Florida in the home of Bxx and Dxxxxx Mxxxxxxx when their limb secretary's little daughter failed to acknowledge my greeting when I said hello to her.
Literally no one was allowed to move until this child said hello to me. I had to stay there and watch while Bxx knelt in front of this kid and smacked her bottom until she finally said hello. We were there at least 45 minutes, no exaggeration. He would tell her to say hello, she would refuse, and he would smack her. Repeated God knows how many times. Tedious. Succeeded in getting the child to say hello, but more importantly, it did NOT change the child's attitude.
In raising children, we are after their hearts, not just the outward expressions.
Typical for TWI to have it so backward.
Treat the kid like a dog, get someone who will bite the hand that feeds it, IMHO.
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CoolWaters
Catcup,
45 mins???!!!!??? There must have been bruises!
The last "service" we attended at an offshoot...the "ministers" humiliated one of their daughters for being too ill to perform that morning. Took her out on the porch and verbally assaulted her...loud enough that we could all hear...then brought her in and made her apologize to us...and perform.
I sat there humiliated that I was doing nothing...not speaking up...not telling her or any of the children there that this is unacceptable behaviour from parents towards children...couldn't even say it for the benefit of my own son.
That was the last straw for me. It was too close to what happened in Alaska...
?????????????
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sadie
Damn SOB"S
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Hope R.
Gawd - do you remember that painting called "The Trainer"? It looks just like the cover of that book, except it's VP and one of his dogs! Another TWI rip-off of someone else's original idea!
Hope R. color>size>face>
...I don't know who I am but life is for learning... we are stardust...size>face>color>
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Watered Garden
I once saw WC grads beat their 1-year-old daughter repeatedly with a spoon because she wouldn't apologize for throwing pebbles. When the dad was finished, you could see blood running under the skin of her calves and thighs.
This was at the ROA and I could see 2 sheriff's cars from where I stood, horrified. I wanted to run over there screaming, but I was rooted to the spot and to the notion that this awful man had the God-given right to beat the he11 out of his child. It about half an hour to get her to apologize.
I wondered if they'd taught her not to lie, and were forcing her to do it anyway - she obviously wasn't nearly as sorry for tossing pebbles as she was for getting thrashed like that.
Wonder if explaining to her whyshe shouldn't throw pebbles would've helped?
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Watered Garden
Hope,
We have "The Trainer" hanging in our lovely new home! My husband loves that print. However, the good news is that it is hanging where the summer sun will hopefully fade it away to nothing!
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JustThinking
Hope,
You're right! I remember that. It is very similar. Didn't it have a caption at the bottom? Something about "loving obedience." I don't remember anything about "beat the s*** out of 'em till they cry uncle." That version must have been for people "spiritually mature" enough to handle it. ;-)
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Watered Garden
"Training with love breeds loving obedience."
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CoolWaters
WG...mind if I use that quote in my "Broken logic?" thread?
?????????????
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Watered Garden
That's what it says at the bottom of the picture "The Trainer." too bad nobody there believed it. Training with love does not equal beatings of dog or kid.
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CoolWaters
OK. Thanks.
?????????????
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excathedra
of course i ran (in awe) and got the book ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
i remember reading it looking for special hidden (spiritual) lessons of how this hunting dog book could apply to raising a child
fortunately by the time i had a baby, i had completely forgotton about the book and was far removed from the "father" who recommended it to his "kids"
?
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JustThinking
I suppose my problem with the whole idea (even if you leave out the physical hitting of a child) is that you don't train a dog to be anything more than an obedient dog. You train a child to be an adult which means he has to be able to think and make decision on his own.
Uh oh, now I see why this book was suggested.
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Hope R.
WG - our print is up in the attic. I couldn't toss it because I paid a lot for the frame and figure I can reuse it someday.
Hope R. color>size>face>
...I don't know who I am but life is for learning... we are stardust...size>face>color>
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wyteduv58
Beating a one year old? A 1 year old can barely talk, so how much damage could a 1 year old do to get a beating like that.
He should have been arrested for child abuse. I bet that kid will run away as soon as she is old enough.
I once saw a man beating a baby 6-8 mo. old. I walked up to him and told him if he didn't stop I would call the police and report him, the poor baby's hand looked like it went thru a meat grinder. The mother came up as I was holding the baby who by the way was soaking wet and filthy, she started to rile on me and I just said maybe I should take this baby to leaders and call the police. She shut up and let me change the baby and clean her up a bit, she had a terrible diaper rash. It was all I could do not to smack the both of them. I won't shut up I'll put up the dukes if neccessary.
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... too dumb to post pics http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?s=9716057...a&ul=4846073735
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Galen
Is that the 'best' way to raise children? I dont know.
I have been through many courses on handling children (as required to be a state-licensed foster parent). I still beleive in spanking on occassion, but now I also understand a far-wider array of options. I am tired of wall-charts of privledges, weekly lists of chores, getting calls from the school every week, weekly trips to therapists and monthly visits by social workers.
A couple of times after we had left foster children at home with our eldest son, he thanked us for spanking him when he was smaller; he insisted that children raised entirely without it, run out of control.
The children we have now, were neglected, and largely had to raise themselves. When we got them, they (8,7 and 6) did not know how to use a fork. They could however feed themselves on cold cans of olives, or tuna. Thye have had a very difficult time getting used to the idea that a dining room is for eating in, and that everyone can eat at the same time around a common meal or dinner. We have came a long way in domesticating these children and in showing them the value of an education. But still if let out of our eye-sight for a minute they run completely out of control.
They are not allowed to go into any grocery store or any store as a group, we keep them at home and one adult can take one child to a store at a time. Otherwise they run lose, pulling things off shelves, sprinting up and down the aisles, knocking into carts, sampling any food they find, and stuffing their pockets.
On the other hand, I was raised by fairly authoritarian parents. My earliest memory is being 'spanked' with a shovel when I was 4. I have always resented my father, because he had always beaten me with implements (shovel, hoe, horse-whip, block and tackle, cattle-prod, etc). I remember only one time when he did hit me with his fist, it was because he caught me hiding from him, but that was the only time he ever hit me with his hands. He did kick me and stomp on me a few times. I saw him this past summer and asked him about those times. He said that he had to do those things because he had to 'get your attention'. He did not think that he could get my attention or that I could focus on him, without first exhausting himself beating me with an implement.
I remember during the Vietnam War, one of my brothers came home in his army uniform and went out on our tractor and disced an orchard for our father. When our father came home and inspected the orchard he found that the disc had not been set deep enough, so our father went out to my brother, pulled him down off of the tractor, beat him with a cattle-prod and stomped on him. Looking back now, I realize that in my father's eyes he needed to do this before he could explain that the disc had to be set deeper into the ground, as it was his method of 'getting my brother's attention'.
Today I see a possible need at times, for spanking but not all of the time, and not as the only method of disciplining a child. Without any threat of spanking at all, a parent may not carry the authority with a child. I think that the 'threat' of the spanking is enough most times, even when removing a privledge or performing a time-out.
Bless you, May our Heavenly Father bless you in everyway, in the wonderful name of His son and our brother Jesus.
Galen
ET1 SS - USN Retired,
Pilgrim of the Ancient Arabic Order Nobles of the mystic shrine.
and
'University of Life' Alumni
"I live in the spirit of prayer. I pray as I walk, when I lie down, and when I rise. And the answers are always coming. Tens of thousands of times have my prayers been answered. When once I am persuaded that a thing is right, I go on praying for it. the great point is never to give up till the answer comes. The great fault of the children of God is, they do not continue in prayer, they do not persevere. If they desire anything for God's glory, they should pray until they get it." - George Mueller
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excathedra
oh gosh galen, i know you don't treat your children like dogs
much love,
e
?
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dmiller
Geo yep. If it works for dogs, it should work on twi folk too
:(-->
Just Thinking --->> great point
:D--> you hit the nail on the head.
Ex -- I never read the book,
--> but am willing to bet vpw read it to lcm at bedtime and got the message thru, loud and clear!!!
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Watered Garden
WhyteDove,
Were these people in TWI? Holy Cow!
Galen,
I just don't know what to say. You got a lotta love, courage, and conviction. We were foster parents too. It isn't easy, forks they don't know and even more importantly, they have no clue what love is.
God bless you.
WG
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My3Cents
It makes perfectly good sense to me. Kids are just dogs on two legs - there for the purpose of serving their master (I mean parents) right?
And it fits with the word because we are here to serve our master and father, God. So it's biblical too. Of course, since it's the grace period (or is that grace semi-colon?) God doesn't beat us if we misbehave. But it still makes sense for us to beat our kids and dogs, because it says so in some book.
It's been a long time since I left TWI but the logic is still there.
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JustThinking
Galen,
We had similar experiences being foster parents. It's hard for someone who hasn't been there the challenge of teaching an older child the things many take for granted. Seeing a child who uses a fork like a shovel, poor hygiene, etc. can be very disheartening. It never did and never would occur to me to beat a child. For that matter, making everyone stand around while a forced my daughter to perform like a circus monkey wouldn't either. (As in Catcup's post)
Catcup,
Those parents better hope that kid doesn't come back with a gun in her later years.
Or, worse, treat her kids the same way. LCM used to talk about how we would have to face Jesus at the bema to answer for what we'd done, if it hadn't been forgiven. If that corps couple believed that, imagine the conversation about THAT incident! Hate to be them.
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