Why would ANYone think/believe/act as if anything Victor Wierwille said or wrote matters today even as much as when he said or wrote any of it?
There are some eternal truths that would be true, whether said decades ago, or now. And whether VPW said them, or someone else did.
He himself was the one who said that "every generation needs to make the Word its own," ie, learns to apply Biblical principles in their generation and circumstances. Hmmm. Did he mean that (for example) "kindness" changes?
However, I don't trust what he said or wrote. Wasn't too sure about some things when first heard in PFAL; definitely am not sure now. Everything he said or wrote needs confirmation from some other source(s), sources that are in no way Way related.
“I see a massive number of massively blessed for all eternity people. They keep popping up everywhere”.
The largest number of people I have ever heard remotely involved with TWI in numbers was someone said one time maybe 100,000 people took PFAL and had their names in “the book of life” TWIs membership computer named egocentric resource.
Realistic resources place numbers more around the 10,000 number for the US and scarce pockets outside of this. That’s probably generous counting the number who regularly attend and subscribe to tapes and magazines.
Compared to this, Mormons spout off an 18 million person membership. That’s probably high as they count non attending members. The Jehovahs Witness group claims maybe half that amount and that’s who they have doing “pioneering” or D2D witnessing and cart work.
There were never “massive amounts of people” anywhere anytime ever in TWI. It is and always has been a small nondescript cult in rural Ohio. Local churches have memberships in the same numbers as the whole entire TWI in all of its 1,2,3,4 glory. Actually in numbers between 1 and 2 they lost 80% of followers and have never returned to anything near those TWI - 1 numbers. They survive off an excess from that time once shown as $65 million. They never publish finances so who knows what shenanigans go on there. People don’t hide things they are proud of though.
This fictional “massive amounts of people” is wishful thinking. There are Facebook groups with maybe 1000 members. But mostly it is a small group in every state or nation and unknown to the local Christian community in any sense. Except some still remember Wierwille and react extremely negatively to his name or any associated with his group.
This group of 10 to 20 active posters is also a very very small group. GSC has a reach even more minuscule than TWI.
Interesting point and it explains the way international's latest move to pump their pathetically low numbers in the US by now including the so called "over thirty international countries"....not sure what an international country is exactly but you get the point. Check the webiste. They make themselves seem like they are so vibrant, growing, and moving the word all over the world but all the did was start showcasing other countries because Rosalie and other rocket scientists at the director level, in all of their accumulated wisdom have marked and avoided most of the way of the USA....comedy at its finest...they kick most followers out and then ask them to come back.
Thank you, socks. I miss your presence here, and am glad to see you check in some.
I have had a few people contact me after they tried here and which I didn’t see till much later, regarding music. I don’t really browse the topics, but I did get a chuckle out of this thread being rekindled.
I will say - I’ve explained to a few people about that “moderation” thing - I’m not and I don’t seek that out as a means to learn and experience - well, “ more or less”. I’m much more interested in process and methodology and understanding shared principled approaches.
But I have no moderation for, say, my story or what I know to be true, such as that is. I don’t expect others to be about themselves either nor should they be. We all own our own stories, our life’s work and our gift of life and our choices. I’m actually - well I try to be - disciplined on how I think and in how I think about how I think. I work with binomial probability theorems and outcomes and distributions. I do try to be gentle with others but that’s “primum non nocere”.
I can always exhort, encourage, support and try to understand, with Gods mercy and allowance and o try to do that. To me there’s no grand outcome in knowledge or even actions in and of themselves until there is a heart of humanity in them, just as “God so loved”, that He gave.
If one expects victor paul wierwille, charlatan, to have a modicum of honesty the size of a glass eyeball glint, one might expect victor paul wierwille’s last teaching to be an exhortation to track down the guy who “taught” him the bastard Jew bar mitzvah story, since victor, in spite of his throughly renewed mind, just could not remember where he got it.
Once Victor got it, he knew what to do with it. That’s riiiight! You’ve got to know what’s available and how (H-O-W) to get it.
This is a class on how (H-O-W).
Only then, Then, THEN will you know what (W-H-A-T) to do with it.
If one expects victor paul wierwille, charlatan, to have a modicum of honesty the size of a glass eyeball glint, one might expect victor paul wierwille’s last teaching to be an exhortation to track down the guy who “taught” him the bastard Jew bar mitzvah story, since victor, in spite of his throughly renewed mind, just could not remember where he got it.
Once Victor got it, he knew what to do with it. That’s riiiight! You’ve got to know what’s available and how (H-O-W) to get it.
This is a class on how (H-O-W).
Only then, Then, THEN will you know what (W-H-A-T) to do with it.
Hey! I didn’t write the book.
Then you could correct the source of the 12-year-old Bar Mitzvah story since, as Raf pointed out, even if true, it's completely irrelevant to the finding in the temple at age 12 since they were there for the feast and not for a Bar Mitzvah.
Then you could correct the source of the 12-year-old Bar Mitzvah story since, as Raf pointed out, even if true, it's completely irrelevant to the finding in the temple at age 12 since they were there for the feast and not for a Bar Mitzvah.
This man died nearly 40 years ago. Of what possible relevance to this day and time is his "last teaching"? What can this Biblically illiterate bombast have to say that is relevant to now? [One could ask, was it ever relevant? But that's another issue.]
Without doubt, there are real ministers of the church of Jesus Christ that do have something relevant to say to today's generations. It might be more worthwhile (much more worthwhile) to spend time pondering what they have to say.
This man died nearly 40 years ago. Of what possible relevance to this day and time is his "last teaching"? What can this Biblically illiterate bombast have to say that is relevant to now? [One could ask, was it ever relevant? But that's another issue.]
Without doubt, there are real ministers of the church of Jesus Christ that do have something relevant to say to today's generations. It might be more worthwhile (much more worthwhile) to spend time pondering what they have to say.
Not sure if it is discussed anywhere within these 44 exhausting pages, but it’s worth repeating.
Victor’s “lost teaching” exhorts duped sycophants to master the written, scrubbed edition of PFAL and the collaterals - the foundational fundamentals.
BUT the Advanced Class is conspicuously missing from the list of materials to be mastered. Could it be because the AC is a self indictment? VP teaches in the AC that cancer is devil spirit possession. Victor paul wierwille himself died of cancer, a devil spirit possession he did not know how (H-O-W) to cast out.
He was unwilling to cast out any of his devil spirit possessions because he was unable - ability=willingness.
If only he could have rightly beleeeved big enough…
If “Drs Last Teaching” were lost for another 17 years what’s the probability that anyone except the thread starter here will actually give a shiz?
Low. Very low.
It's been about 20 years since the original was posted. During the discussions some things have been been clarified - no "last teaching" was actually "lost", and any case made to contend that it was willfully hidden or denied access to is unproven and factually untrue - I had heard that teaching. Copies circulated later amongst some of the WC and other members, as so much of what he'd said and written did. In that teaching VPW delivered parts of the core message he'd taught many many times before. The significance at the time was clear to many, in the context of his age and how the organization he'd started was already going under and had been, due in no small part to his own decisions, actions and intent. ("the Word of God", the Logos, is however still just that and as life goes on in our lives it will continue to "live" - no one's going to quench that)
Then as now Mike says he's covered more "data than most of you, and after having more time to sift through it all than most of you", with no wife or children, he's had plenty of time to immerse himself in this, his chosen interest. And he's willing to share it. Here.
So - Mike, to be clear, I'm not interested and won't be getting into this cycle of interest, beyond what I've written in these last three comments. I'm not a voice of moderation that will bridge any gap between extremes, in the context of this and the related discussions. GreaseSpot Cafe has been established as a place where "the other side of the story" can be told and it's been seen that there are as many sides as there are people, and all can speak to theirs. You too.
Years ago at some point and for a time, your threads were being put in the Doctrinal section, as they actually deal with a topic that works from one or more doctrinal premises - well, that should, anyway. You balked at being restricted to what I think you called the "basement" - you wanted top level views where everyone could see what you wrote and you felt it wouldn't get attention there. (I'd actually suggested you be suspended or banned for a time, but that's not my decision and you never were, that I knew of, which I accepted and moved on.)
Be that as it may or was or is or will be, your opinions are allowed here and others respond. I wish you no ill. I would still suggest you take a path of establishing your own online platform and repository where you can speak your mind and message and collaborate in a public setting with those of like mind, perhaps ask one of the many people that no doubt support what you're doing to assist with the tasks of doing so if you're unable to. You've been at this for many years now, surely there are others ready to move forward with you, making the way for others to follow. Right?
Peace homeez! Love y'all!
Edited by socks Something's going to happen...Something wonderful. And it's going to involve bacon.
Then as now Mike says he's covered more "data than most of you, and after having more time to sift through it all than most of you", with no wife or children, he's had plenty of time to immerse himself in this, his chosen interest. And he's willing to share it. Here.
Ya, hes a legend in his own mind. If anyone dare disagree with Mike then they just havent studied pflappy enough times to get it! Personally, I studied everything TWI including PLAFFY ad nauseum and there's just not lot of depth or truth to any of it. wierwilles writings are elementary at best and the only books put out by the way international that were done properly and by actual researchers was Jesus Christ our Promised Seed and Jesus Christ our Passover...both works written by those staffing the research department at the time and both works had wierwille's name slapped across the covers that he didn't actually write. But hey...steal your works from other ministers or steal your works from those you hired...plagiarism is plagiarism.
But what do I know...I probably need to go read plaps again....brb....
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T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
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Twinky
There are some eternal truths that would be true, whether said decades ago, or now. And whether VPW said them, or someone else did.
He himself was the one who said that "every generation needs to make the Word its own," ie, learns to apply Biblical principles in their generation and circumstances. Hmmm. Did he mean that (for example) "kindness" changes?
However, I don't trust what he said or wrote. Wasn't too sure about some things when first heard in PFAL; definitely am not sure now. Everything he said or wrote needs confirmation from some other source(s), sources that are in no way Way related.
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chockfull
“I see a massive number of massively blessed for all eternity people. They keep popping up everywhere”.
The largest number of people I have ever heard remotely involved with TWI in numbers was someone said one time maybe 100,000 people took PFAL and had their names in “the book of life” TWIs membership computer named egocentric resource.
Realistic resources place numbers more around the 10,000 number for the US and scarce pockets outside of this. That’s probably generous counting the number who regularly attend and subscribe to tapes and magazines.
Compared to this, Mormons spout off an 18 million person membership. That’s probably high as they count non attending members. The Jehovahs Witness group claims maybe half that amount and that’s who they have doing “pioneering” or D2D witnessing and cart work.
There were never “massive amounts of people” anywhere anytime ever in TWI. It is and always has been a small nondescript cult in rural Ohio. Local churches have memberships in the same numbers as the whole entire TWI in all of its 1,2,3,4 glory. Actually in numbers between 1 and 2 they lost 80% of followers and have never returned to anything near those TWI - 1 numbers. They survive off an excess from that time once shown as $65 million. They never publish finances so who knows what shenanigans go on there. People don’t hide things they are proud of though.
This fictional “massive amounts of people” is wishful thinking. There are Facebook groups with maybe 1000 members. But mostly it is a small group in every state or nation and unknown to the local Christian community in any sense. Except some still remember Wierwille and react extremely negatively to his name or any associated with his group.
This group of 10 to 20 active posters is also a very very small group. GSC has a reach even more minuscule than TWI.
Cults always want to appear larger than they are.
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OldSkool
Interesting point and it explains the way international's latest move to pump their pathetically low numbers in the US by now including the so called "over thirty international countries"....not sure what an international country is exactly but you get the point. Check the webiste. They make themselves seem like they are so vibrant, growing, and moving the word all over the world but all the did was start showcasing other countries because Rosalie and other rocket scientists at the director level, in all of their accumulated wisdom have marked and avoided most of the way of the USA....comedy at its finest...they kick most followers out and then ask them to come back.
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socks
I have had a few people contact me after they tried here and which I didn’t see till much later, regarding music. I don’t really browse the topics, but I did get a chuckle out of this thread being rekindled.
I will say - I’ve explained to a few people about that “moderation” thing - I’m not and I don’t seek that out as a means to learn and experience - well, “ more or less”. I’m much more interested in process and methodology and understanding shared principled approaches.
But I have no moderation for, say, my story or what I know to be true, such as that is. I don’t expect others to be about themselves either nor should they be. We all own our own stories, our life’s work and our gift of life and our choices. I’m actually - well I try to be - disciplined on how I think and in how I think about how I think. I work with binomial probability theorems and outcomes and distributions. I do try to be gentle with others but that’s “primum non nocere”.
I can always exhort, encourage, support and try to understand, with Gods mercy and allowance and o try to do that. To me there’s no grand outcome in knowledge or even actions in and of themselves until there is a heart of humanity in them, just as “God so loved”, that He gave.
Edited by socks^
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chockfull
If “Drs Last Teaching” were lost for another 17 years what’s the probability that anyone except the thread starter here will actually give a shiz?
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Nathan_Jr
If one expects victor paul wierwille, charlatan, to have a modicum of honesty the size of a glass eyeball glint, one might expect victor paul wierwille’s last teaching to be an exhortation to track down the guy who “taught” him the bastard Jew bar mitzvah story, since victor, in spite of his throughly renewed mind, just could not remember where he got it.
Once Victor got it, he knew what to do with it. That’s riiiight! You’ve got to know what’s available and how (H-O-W) to get it.
This is a class on how (H-O-W).
Only then, Then, THEN will you know what (W-H-A-T) to do with it.
Hey! I didn’t write the book.
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WordWolf
Then you could correct the source of the 12-year-old Bar Mitzvah story since, as Raf pointed out, even if true, it's completely irrelevant to the finding in the temple at age 12 since they were there for the feast and not for a Bar Mitzvah.
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Nathan_Jr
Yep and yep.
Not even a chance it’s true.
ABC…. Accuracy!
Hey! I didn’t right the book.
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Nathan_Jr
I’ve been thinking about it for days.
It seems to me only three types of people think/believe/act as if anything victor said or wrote matters:
1. The naive
2. The confused, delusional
3. The willfully ignorant
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Twinky
This man died nearly 40 years ago. Of what possible relevance to this day and time is his "last teaching"? What can this Biblically illiterate bombast have to say that is relevant to now? [One could ask, was it ever relevant? But that's another issue.]
Without doubt, there are real ministers of the church of Jesus Christ that do have something relevant to say to today's generations. It might be more worthwhile (much more worthwhile) to spend time pondering what they have to say.
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Rocky
Wonderfully salient questions!
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Nathan_Jr
Not sure if it is discussed anywhere within these 44 exhausting pages, but it’s worth repeating.
Victor’s “lost teaching” exhorts duped sycophants to master the written, scrubbed edition of PFAL and the collaterals - the foundational fundamentals.
BUT the Advanced Class is conspicuously missing from the list of materials to be mastered. Could it be because the AC is a self indictment? VP teaches in the AC that cancer is devil spirit possession. Victor paul wierwille himself died of cancer, a devil spirit possession he did not know how (H-O-W) to cast out.
He was unwilling to cast out any of his devil spirit possessions because he was unable - ability=willingness.
If only he could have rightly beleeeved big enough…
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socks
Low.
Very low.
It's been about 20 years since the original was posted. During the discussions some things have been been clarified - no "last teaching" was actually "lost", and any case made to contend that it was willfully hidden or denied access to is unproven and factually untrue - I had heard that teaching. Copies circulated later amongst some of the WC and other members, as so much of what he'd said and written did. In that teaching VPW delivered parts of the core message he'd taught many many times before. The significance at the time was clear to many, in the context of his age and how the organization he'd started was already going under and had been, due in no small part to his own decisions, actions and intent. ("the Word of God", the Logos, is however still just that and as life goes on in our lives it will continue to "live" - no one's going to quench that)
Then as now Mike says he's covered more "data than most of you, and after having more time to sift through it all than most of you", with no wife or children, he's had plenty of time to immerse himself in this, his chosen interest. And he's willing to share it. Here.
So - Mike, to be clear, I'm not interested and won't be getting into this cycle of interest, beyond what I've written in these last three comments. I'm not a voice of moderation that will bridge any gap between extremes, in the context of this and the related discussions. GreaseSpot Cafe has been established as a place where "the other side of the story" can be told and it's been seen that there are as many sides as there are people, and all can speak to theirs. You too.
Years ago at some point and for a time, your threads were being put in the Doctrinal section, as they actually deal with a topic that works from one or more doctrinal premises - well, that should, anyway. You balked at being restricted to what I think you called the "basement" - you wanted top level views where everyone could see what you wrote and you felt it wouldn't get attention there. (I'd actually suggested you be suspended or banned for a time, but that's not my decision and you never were, that I knew of, which I accepted and moved on.)
Be that as it may or was or is or will be, your opinions are allowed here and others respond. I wish you no ill. I would still suggest you take a path of establishing your own online platform and repository where you can speak your mind and message and collaborate in a public setting with those of like mind, perhaps ask one of the many people that no doubt support what you're doing to assist with the tasks of doing so if you're unable to. You've been at this for many years now, surely there are others ready to move forward with you, making the way for others to follow. Right?
Peace homeez! Love y'all!
Edited by socksSomething's going to happen...Something wonderful. And it's going to involve bacon.
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OldSkool
Ya, hes a legend in his own mind. If anyone dare disagree with Mike then they just havent studied pflappy enough times to get it! Personally, I studied everything TWI including PLAFFY ad nauseum and there's just not lot of depth or truth to any of it. wierwilles writings are elementary at best and the only books put out by the way international that were done properly and by actual researchers was Jesus Christ our Promised Seed and Jesus Christ our Passover...both works written by those staffing the research department at the time and both works had wierwille's name slapped across the covers that he didn't actually write. But hey...steal your works from other ministers or steal your works from those you hired...plagiarism is plagiarism.
But what do I know...I probably need to go read plaps again....brb....
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Bolshevik
"Wife swapping" would imply there is a husband that will be held responsible for this behavior. She is legally and socially protected.
"Husband swapping" obviously sounds anemic. She's admitting she desires this and may be considered by some to be responsible for her own decision.
"Partner Swapping" why bother knowing each other's name? Nobody is going to be around for the pregnancy.
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