Dr's Last Teaching - LOST for 17 Years!

[Mike]

oldiesman,

Shazdancer wrote to me:

“...How do you tithe to Christ himself? Do you throw it up in the air, and what he catches he keeps??”

And I responded with:

“No, it’s obey the man of God and master the PFAL books so he can be seen.”

So then shaz retorted with:

“Your statement that tithing today is studying PFAL is just absurd.

***********************************************************

Oldiesman, you then repeated her retort to open your post to me and followed with:

“Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and if you really believe this, that's your option. However, since Dr. Wierwille taught that tithing was something entirely different in CSBP, and you have taught us that we should get back to the original Wierwille writings, well ... do you see the apparent problem ?”

First I want to show YOU a problem.

What does “this” refer to in your post? It refers to your pasted repetition of shaz’s retort, not my position, but shaz’s representation of my position.

So, you bring up the idea of going back to the originals of Dr’s material, yet you didn’t do the same with my material. You took her words to adequately represent my position. They do not.

You based your post on a misrepresentation of me. Do you see how she misrepresented me?

I said: “...master the PFAL books so he can be seen.”

Shaz said: “...studying PFAL...”

She changed master to study, and she omitted “so he can be seen”

You have, on a number of threads, accurately pointed out that Dr taught that the “absent Christ” in no way means a disconnected Christ, but one that can’t be PHYSICALLY seen, yet is spiritually well connected.

I pointed out that by mastering PFAL we can learn to see him spiritually. As this is being accomplished he can show you where and how to tithe.

In the class Dr taught us that we should give to where the integrity and accuracy of God’s Word is being upheld. He taught that we should give to where is can do the most good, to sow on fertile ground. As we learn to see Christ, this problem of where to give money becomes very easy. As we develop this spiritual understanding of things MANY conundrums of this world vanish.

***

Now, last time we talked about tithing and CSBP I had brought up a few challenges to you.

On this board, time and time again I have seen you bring up CSBP as if it was a real thorn in your side. The other day you brought it up while a very intense discussion was going on about something totally unrelated to tithing. I have seen this before in your posting.

You have pointed out that you checked out CSBP and that you find it unscriptural. You can’t see it backed up in the Bible, so you reject it as not God’s word and will.

In my challenge to you the other day I asked if you could give me the scriptural basis for God’s detailed absolute foreknowledge and for our free will being a reality as opposed to determinism.

I will assume you do believe these two tenets. If not, then this will still apply to those who do.

Now I ask you, are these two tenets scriptural? If you believe them, surely you long ago checked them out like you did tithing, right? So, surely now, after two days you must have found or remembered the verses you based your belief in these two tenets, right?

Or, maybe you didn’t happen to research out these two tenets, but in the past two days surely you went and found a few verses, right?

Can you produce your basis for believing in these things?

If you have, I am HUNGRY to see them, because in 35 years I have never been able to find much to satisfy myself.

The reason CES dumped their belief in God’s detailed, specific, total, absolute foreknowledge is because THEY TOO can’t find adequate scriptural basis for it.

The reason Calvinists dumped the idea of total free will believing unto salvation, at man’s prerogative, is because THEY TOO can’t find adequate proof of it in their Bible.

So here you are suspended in mid-air believing in both but you can’t prove them with verses.

Why can’t you believe the revelation God gave Dr in CSBP in spite of your inability to back it up in your Bible.

As you understand what I have pointed out so far, I’ll try to explain why ALL THREE of these tenets are so hard to find in your Bible.

.

.

.

.

Thanks to WordWolf for a spelling correction.

[This message was edited by Mike on March 10, 2004 at 13:45.]

Edited March 10, 2004 by Guest

[Tom Strange]

quote:

---

Tom,

How does God feel about all the other posters here?

Can you give us ALL our report cards, and not just me?

---

I don't know Mike... I just know that He's not pleased with your delivery.

It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.

To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?

Edited March 10, 2004 by Guest

[Mike]

I assume you asked Him.

Can't you ask about all the others here?

Or don't you care if they displease God?

[Tom Strange]

You started it.

God is not happy with the job your doing. He doesn't approve of your behavior.

It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.

To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?

[WordWolf]

Mike,

The subject of God's foreknowledge, free-will and

determinism have been the subject of many rather

intelligent discussions, some of which were online,

some of which I've been a party to, and most of which

were NOT ones were ex-twi'ers were involved.

If you REALLY have trouble with this issue, it would

serve you well to drop all the insults and ego you

reserve when dealing with non-twi Christians, and

get in there amongst them. This is the silcon age-

you can do that without leaving your armchair.

God's detailed foreknowledge? Yes, old news.

Our freewill? Yes, old news.

I'd share, but I think you'd benefit more from getting

the answers from some of those uneducated idiots out

there you spurn.

BTW, some of us found proof of this before we met some

of the other Christians. (Myself included.)

If you really are hungry to find the answers, they are

out there as we speak.

I'm curious how you know for a fact that Oldiesman is

NOT aware of this-I certainly don't know, since he

never told me. So, I do not know he can't prove them

with verses. Me, I can name at least 2 posters here

who CAN.

It's "tenets", not "tenants". They don't live here.

Honestly, Mike,

some of us have said it before, and you didn't see a

reason to THEN. Spend some time with other Christians.

Sure, you'll find some error. You'll also find some

surprising answers. In this case, you said this one's

bugged you for 35 years. Wouldn't you honestly like to

close the case on it? I sure would if it was me. I'd

like to clear my list of unanswered questions if I

could (and sometimes I DO get to cross one off.)

If you DO agree that revelation can come at unlikely

places and times, might you consider putting yourself

where you're more likely to run across it?

Or, you could let pride forbid you from looking, even.

Your choice.

[WordWolf]

Tom,

feel free to give me my report card in private.

Whenever it's convenient.

[Tom Strange]

WW... I got no report cards man! That's something Mike brought up....

It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.

To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?

[Mike]

Tom,

I could swear you gave me my report card unsolicited.

Either way, I do not recognize you as an unbiased judge of my behavior. Like other biased posters who have singled me out and ignored the most egregious behavior of many others here, you have disqualified yourself from sitting on that bench.

This egregious behavior of many others here I cite HAS been bemoaned by a FEW other posters here. I mentioned Abigail, and Ginger Tea before as such, SPECIFICALLY mentioning this horrendous behavior as it is aimed at me. It’s also the case that Research Geek complained about it in a more general sense, and one or two that escape my memory now did simnilarly.

I’m walking out your courtroom with impunity. See if you can stop me!

Edited March 10, 2004 by Guest

[Mike]

WordWolf,

Thanks for the spelling correction.

I assumed oldiesman’s situation, but left the door open that my post might not apply to him, hoping others in the assumed situation would still benefit.

I said that I was not satisfied with what I could find on those two topics. I did find some, but it was not adequate in my mind. In many previous posts I mentioned that in my first 27 years I frequented many other churches and theologians, not being insular like many of my fellow grads at the time.

Edited March 10, 2004 by Guest

[mj412]

Mike

I feel I have to metion to you .

this is only a internet site .

Life is bigger than a book by VPW.

your not changing much with your postings. Do you have the ability to live the life full of happiness and Joy the good Lord wants for you? Do you think this is life changing or are you stuck with no where to go and nothing eles to do?

your feelings and comments sound as if your out of control and unable to have a sane mind concerning these areas...

You may in a depressed state of mind and unable to clearly define life and boundaries in a positive manner.

Will you please seek consel other than this site and other posters, and those who have said what you want to hear?

[oldiesman]

quote:

---

I pointed out that by mastering PFAL we can learn to see him spiritually. As this is being accomplished he can show you where and how to tithe.

...

You have pointed out that you checked out CSBP and that you find it unscriptural. You can’t see it backed up in the Bible, so you reject it as not God’s word and will.

Why can’t you believe the revelation God gave Dr in CSBP in spite of your inability to back it up in your Bible.

So here you are suspended in mid-air believing in both but you can’t prove them with verses.

Why can’t you believe the revelation God gave Dr in CSBP in spite of your inability to back it up in your Bible.

.

.

---

Hi Mike, I will accept your definition of tithing, although I don't agree with it.

I don't think I ever said tithing was unscriptural. All I said was, it doesn't work like an immutable law should, like Dr. Wierwille said it was supposed to work. I tried it -- it doesn't work like he said it was supposed to work. That's why I don't practice it anymore, and haven't for years and years, even in TWI-1. Tithing is NOT the key to material prosperity. Never was, never will be.

[herbiejuan]

What would happen if Drs last teaching wasn't really his last?

[Tom Strange]

Mike...

I have no courtroom... I'm not a judge...

I have no report card... I'm not a teacher...

God is not happy with the job your doing. He doesn't approve of your behavior.

It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.

To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?

[Steve!]

So, Mike, were you born stupid or did you have to take lessons?

Of course, you must be at least 80 years old, because no one could POSSIBLY get as stupid as you in any shorter time than that.

[Zixar]

Herbie: Ooh, you mean we've been falsely mastering Doctor's PENULTIMATE teaching instead of the True Lost Last Lost Ubiquitous Teaching™?????

I think I'm going to be sick...

[Mike]

Zixar,

You wrote: “I think I'm going to be sick...”

I think you’re just realizing that you’ve been sick for a long, long time. Come back to PFAL and get healed.

[Mike]

Tom Strange,

If you were to think from within my paradigm you’d think different about my supposedly inadequate etiquette.

If I’m right about PFAL being of God, then your complaint of me is like someone in a movie theatre telling me it’s rude to say “Fire!” while the movie is playing and interrupting. If you could see the catastrophic proportions of your stand against this Word, you’d know that my toughness is done in total love.

Edited March 10, 2004 by Guest

[Mike]

herbiejuan,

You wrote: “What would happen if Drs last teaching wasn't really his last?”

The theme of “The Joy of Serving” was the same as his theme in his last teaching at Emporia (reported here) and his last Limb meeting (reported here) and his last encounters with several individuals I know. This theme is: master PFAL and love.

If your scenario should someday prove factual, the truth of our need to master PFAL still stands. He even told us we needed to master these things in 1979 in the AC, and as early as 1975 in the Ephesians Corps tapes.

That “The Joy of Serving” is the last recorded teaching to surface, and in the magazine it twice mentions it as his last public teaching pretty well seals it up.

The magazine mentions it in a tiny muted editor’s note with fine italic print just before the teaching, and also in the table of contents. Craig also mentions it is his last in the Corps tape that went out two days after Dr died. Many have testified that when Dr had returned from Scottland he was visibly worse off health wise, and he rapidly deteriorated then. Dr says in the POP that it was to be his last.

Nice try.

Edited March 10, 2004 by Guest

[Mike]

oldiesman,

You wrote: “I don't think I ever said tithing was unscriptural.”

I'm pretty sure that in some of the places where you brought up CSBP, and they were many, you indicated that you thought Dr failed to properly extract that treatise from scripture.

You then wrote: “All I said was, it doesn't work like an immutable law should, like Dr. Wierwille said it was supposed to work. I tried it -- it doesn't work like he said it was supposed to work. That's why I don't practice it anymore, and haven't for years and years, even in TWI-1. Tithing is NOT the key to material prosperity. Never was, never will be.”

Here you are saying that it is your experiences that prove CSBP wrong.

Might you consider that IF you had understood that CSBP was given by revelation, then your attempts to work it would have been more energetic and when you hit a challenge to your believing in it you would have overcome it and thus seen it work?

Thinking from within the paradigm I have presented changes things a lot.

I still haven’t explained how CSBP and Grace Administration tithing, plus free will, plus God’s foreknowledge are difficult to see in scripture in this modern world. Maybe when you see this truth you’ll reconsider, and think it through more thoroughly.

Edited March 10, 2004 by Guest

[Mike]

mj412,

You wrote: “Will you please seek consel other than this site and other posters, and those who have said what you want to hear?

As for me seeking counsel, I do, mostly from those who obey the man of God and endeavor to master God’s Word by mastering PFAL. If you know any, please let me know.

Edited March 10, 2004 by Guest

[Tom Strange]

Mike said:

quote:

---

If you could see the catastrophic proportions of your stand against this Word, you’d know that my toughness is done in total love.

---

Mike, God is not happy with the job your doing. He doesn't approve of your behavior.

It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.

To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?

[Mike]

I'm not interested in your god, Tom. Tell him to stick it!

[herbiejuan]

Zix I have it on Beta you can take my word on it :D-->

[Pirate1974]

Hey Mike,

It's been a long, long time ago, but I seem to remember hearing in the way that if people don't want to hear your message, you should shake the dust off your feet and move on down the road.

How are your feet? Getting pretty dusty, I'll bet.

[shazdancer]

Mike,

How dishonest!

You said, speaking to Oldiesman...

quote:

---

Shazdancer wrote to me:

“...How do you tithe to Christ himself? Do you throw it up in the air, and what he catches he keeps??”

And I responded with:

“No, it’s obey the man of God and master the PFAL books so he can be seen.”

So then shaz retorted with:

“Your statement that tithing today is studying PFAL is just absurd.

You based your post on a misrepresentation of me. Do you see how she misrepresented me?

I said: “...master the PFAL books so he can be seen.”

Shaz said: “...studying PFAL...”

She changed master to study, and she omitted “so he can be seen”

---

Mike, just so I am sure that you understand what I meant (and I think you understood me perfectly well the first time!), I will restate my position:

Mike, your statement that tithing today is mastering the PFAL books is absurd, if you believe VPW's writings to be true, as your belief is contrary to what VPW wrote in CSBP.

And if you want to split hairs, your phrase "so he can be seen" grammatically refers to Wierwille, the last person you spoke of by name. I don't think you meant to say, "Master PFAL so WIERWILLE can be seen," so I didn't include that in the discussion. It would have been a red herring. You, on the other hand, LOVED to throw in the red herrings and the long-winded reply, and avoid facing the point.

Shaz