You wrote: “My analogy was simply descriptive and was offered to show by example why reading your every word is not necessary to see the folly of your position(s).â€
Thank you for admitting to your analogy.
***
You wrote: “The Burden of Proof rests upon the one making the initial claim or statement...â€
Yes, that’s God. I’m simply announcing His position. He can shoulder the burden of proof, but you must go to Him and His recently re-issued Authoritative Word to see it. You must master it to see it.
***
Let’s look at your new analogy:
-----------------------------------------
"I believe that Bigfoot exists".
"That's absurd. Where is your proof?
"The truth needs no proof, I am just here to declare it. Where is your proof that that he doesn't exist ? No one on earth can prove that he doesn't exist ..."
----------------------------------------
Ok, I’ll buy this, but also add a line IN THE ANALOGY.
“Bigfoot wrote a book that has his telephone number and address in it. Here’s the book. Find them for yourself.â€
I put “IN THE ANALOGY†in all-caps in case some form bound idiot will try to quote me that I believe in Bigfoot and his/its literacy.
Still you confuse the written Word with the spiritual Word of God. It’s the spiritual that’s totally perfect. Flaws always creep into the written as soon as it’s copied. They can usually be found and fixed if the period of time and the number of middlemen isn't too large. With the critical Greek texts it’s 1500+ years,, and thousands of middlemen. With PFAL it 15+ years and a small few middlemen.
You also still confuse your method of reading to be the exhaustive way. It is not. You avoid the attitude of meekness and the different results it yields when reading and especially when mastering. You assume you have the correct story (when you don’t) with a defective reading attitude, and THEN you see contradictions in that story. You blame the author for a mistake in writing, when it’s you who have been mistaken due to your reading techniques.
Have you read I Cor.7 to see the context of a verse I will someday use to show how this attitude makes a HUGE difference?
[This message was edited by Mike on March 09, 2004 at 15:10.]
You're no longer worth arguing with. Your crackpot conclusions are exposed to all but the willingly idolatrous. Your methods are dishonest, your reading comprehension non-existent, and your reasonings ludicrous. Watching you and those who would encourage you discuss The Word of God is like watching Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles compete at a game of darts.
Now, now, Raf. I'm surprised that you can't put it all together any better.
Wierwille only made those mistakes you keep harping on because he was a flawed individual who only WISHED he were the man he knew to be. Sadly, not even he was able to truly spiritually MASTER the intricacies of PFAL. He was but a willing conduit, weaving the whole mystery of all time subtly into a little orange book without even seeing the forest he was planting the trees for. Imagine what he could have accomplished if not for human frailty! He was but our Moses, leading us to the sight of the Jordan of PFAL Mastery, but fated to die for his sins of the flesh before he reached the shore. Why do you resist Mike, our true Joshua, in his efforts to reclaim the Promised Land from the Philistines of the WayGB, the Amalekites of the OLGs, and the cruel yoke of the TVT?
Oh, yeah. It's because it's all idolatrous pigswill. Right.
Oh, don't sell yourself short, Mike. You've obviously taken PFAL to a degree never dreamed of by VPW. The only conclusion one can reach is that you're onto something even the Teacher couldn't see.
quote:Still you confuse the written Word with the spiritual Word of God. It’s the spiritual that’s totally perfect. Flaws always creep into the written as soon as it’s copied. They can usually be found and fixed if the period of time and the number of middlemen isn't too large. With the critical Greek texts it’s 1500+ years,, and thousands of middlemen. With PFAL it 15+ years and a small few middlemen.
You also still confuse your method of reading to be the exhaustive way. It is not. You avoid the attitude of meekness and the different results it yields when reading and especially when mastering.
Mike,
You are in error, once again, in divining my attitude toward PFAL and my attitude toward the scriptures. This doesn't surprise me, as your idolatry blinds you to the truth in so many areas. But let me make something clear:
PFAL has indisputable errors that are not attributable to copyists, as you laughably insist (dodge, distract, whatever). We were able to compile a pretty decent list of errors that are not open to dispute or interpretation. You respond by rewriting PFAL, claiming it doesn't say what it says about the perfection of the written word. Fine, be my guest. But your big mistake is in thinking that PFAL's errors are limited to the indisputable.
PFAL is wrong about the law of believing. It's wrong about the abundant life. It's wrong about the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven. It's wrong about the nature of faith. It is meekness to God's Word, not antipathy toward it, that led me to these conclusions. It was the willingness to admit I was wrong, not a stubborn refusal to consider the other side of an argument, that led me to these conclusions. So you accuse me of not being meek or willing to consider an alternative point of view. It's rank hypocrisy.
In the meantime your claims have become increasingly hysterical. Jesus didn't have faith (pistis) because faith (pistis) wasn't available yet. He COULD have believing (pistis) because believing (pistis) WAS available. But he couldn't have faith (pistis).
Do you have any idea how much damage you are doing to the legacy of Victor Paul Wierwille by insisting on this garbage? You claim to revere PFAL, but speaking as someone who got a lot out of that class and those books, I consider your ludicrous thesis (and it is YOUR THESIS, not God's) to be an insult to PFAL and to everyone who took it.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on March 09, 2004 at 17:37.]
You wrote: “The Burden of Proof rests upon the one making the initial claim or statement...â€
Yes, that’s God. I’m simply announcing His position. He can shoulder the burden of proof, but you must go to Him and His recently re-issued Authoritative Word to see it. You must master it to see it.
Wrong Mike, and another disingenous dodge. God has not stated that PFAL is God-breathed (unless you are God). YOU have made these claims and only you that I can tell so far. Show me where "God" has made this claim? You can't - not without circular reasoning.
By your method and reasoning, one could make any number of unsupportable statements and then when challenged delcare, "I’m simply announcing His [God's] position. He [God] can shoulder the burden of proof ..." -- A neat little cop out typically used by religious fanatics and wannabe prophets/cultists.
Your whole spiel boils down to nothing more than 'God told me to tell you .. blah blah blah'. It lacks any substance.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
Mike, Mike, Mike...-- I have studied the "unreliable tatters and remnants" concerning the methods and tactics of LJC and his communication unto men. I do not see your methods as lining up with his...sorry, your message and methods just do not line up...I suppose you will blame that on my immaturity, my reliance on "tatters and remnants", my ego, my old nature, my failure to get "born-again" of Christ-formed-in-you" or some other of a thousand and one excuses,er, reasons...
I would say you have failed here, Mike---- after a year and 4 months and 2700 or so interminably long posts---it Just is NOt working....no crowds of enraptured followers, no disciples, no apostles, none of it.....WHY????????
ps that question was RHETORICAL...no answer expected....
You say you see (to paraphrase) 'People like me coming in here and dragging others away from your message, preventing them from receiving it'... (again, that was paraphrased)...
Michael, we're dragging away the crippled and maimed bodies that are lieing all about after you machine gun them down with your viscious, hateful, condescending attacks... that's all...
You may think it's "us" that are keeping your message from being delivered... it's not.
It's you. Why do you think very few bother to read your posts? They're turned off by your manner. I'll repeat what I said at the end of my earlier post:
quote:Why be so defensive?
Why be so condescending?
Why be so mean to people?
Do you really think that will "get your message across"?
Do you think that's how God wants his message delivered?
....
I don't think God likes it when you to behave like that. He doesn't approve of that kind of behavior.
If you want to be mad at someone for slowing down your mission... look in the mirror.
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
quote:I was just thinking that! Wouldn’t it be pleasant to have the worst name-callers banned! Pleasaant yes, but then they wouldn’t get to say even the little thoughts they have.
Now read your last couple of dozen posts and tell me who is name calling.
God is not happy with the job your doing. He doesn't approve of your behavior.
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
There’s a difference between vicious name calling and poorly fitting the names to the individual. Jesus called a few some names who deserved it. The Pharisees he called hypocrites and Peter, at one point, he called Satan. Paul too called someone a whited sepulcher.
There’s no viciousness in my heart, although I can be angry at times and righteously angry at that. I try to sternly deal with heavy error and those in deep error sometimes need such sternness, as well do their audiences.
***
As for your dragging bodies, because of two poignant posts by shazdancer and Oakspear on the poll thread, I am re-thinking my desire to stay here on About the Way.
I’m ready and willing to go to jail... er...uh... the Doctrinal Forum to keep the peace. Shaz and Oak showed me an angle I hadn’t considered much before.
.... huh? What’s that music I hear...? Oh Yeah! I remember that golden oldie: They’re coming to take me away ha ha! They’re coming to take me away. To the doctrinal Forum, where life is...
Righteously angry....the ace up the sleeve people pull out when they know their speech and actions are contrary to any religious doctrine they believe...
The only time they can act unloving, unkind and judgemental...and still think they are in "fellowship"...whatever the heck that means..
I agree with you that the idea of righteous anger grew to an abomination. I’ve posted on that here, that tough love is cheap and easy for those who want to skip around gentle love and loving enemies.
But don’t forget that Jesus Christ, who was all love, DID get angry at times and tough at times. That’s where the description of Jesus as the “man of steel and velvet†came from.
One of his tough guy times was when Peter was getting into false, religious humility.
Mark 8:33
But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples,
he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan:
quote:Your statement that tithing today is studying PFAL is just absurd.
Hi Mike,
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and if you really believe this, that's your option. However, since Dr. Wierwille taught that tithing was something entirely different in CSBP, and you have taught us that we should get back to the original Wierwille writings, well ... do you see the apparent problem ?
quote:But don’t forget that Jesus Christ, who was all love, DID get angry at times and tough at times. That’s where the description of Jesus as the “man of steel and velvet†came from.
Sure he did... but very seldomly... and not at the drop of a hat whenever someone disagreed with him...
God is not happy with the job you're doing. He doesn't approve of your approach or delivery.
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
58
236
44
53
Popular Days
Dec 29
100
Mar 8
77
Jan 5
74
Dec 27
59
Top Posters In This Topic
Raf 58 posts
Mike 236 posts
Tom Strange 44 posts
OldSkool 53 posts
Popular Days
Dec 29 2022
100 posts
Mar 8 2004
77 posts
Jan 5 2003
74 posts
Dec 27 2002
59 posts
Popular Posts
T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
Posted Images
Mike
def59,
Start a thread... or three.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Goey
You wrote: “My analogy was simply descriptive and was offered to show by example why reading your every word is not necessary to see the folly of your position(s).â€
Thank you for admitting to your analogy.
***
You wrote: “The Burden of Proof rests upon the one making the initial claim or statement...â€
Yes, that’s God. I’m simply announcing His position. He can shoulder the burden of proof, but you must go to Him and His recently re-issued Authoritative Word to see it. You must master it to see it.
***
Let’s look at your new analogy:
-----------------------------------------
"I believe that Bigfoot exists".
"That's absurd. Where is your proof?
"The truth needs no proof, I am just here to declare it. Where is your proof that that he doesn't exist ? No one on earth can prove that he doesn't exist ..."
----------------------------------------
Ok, I’ll buy this, but also add a line IN THE ANALOGY.
“Bigfoot wrote a book that has his telephone number and address in it. Here’s the book. Find them for yourself.â€
I put “IN THE ANALOGY†in all-caps in case some form bound idiot will try to quote me that I believe in Bigfoot and his/its literacy.
I have enough of a burden being a messenger.
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Rafael 1969
Still you confuse the written Word with the spiritual Word of God. It’s the spiritual that’s totally perfect. Flaws always creep into the written as soon as it’s copied. They can usually be found and fixed if the period of time and the number of middlemen isn't too large. With the critical Greek texts it’s 1500+ years,, and thousands of middlemen. With PFAL it 15+ years and a small few middlemen.
You also still confuse your method of reading to be the exhaustive way. It is not. You avoid the attitude of meekness and the different results it yields when reading and especially when mastering. You assume you have the correct story (when you don’t) with a defective reading attitude, and THEN you see contradictions in that story. You blame the author for a mistake in writing, when it’s you who have been mistaken due to your reading techniques.
Have you read I Cor.7 to see the context of a verse I will someday use to show how this attitude makes a HUGE difference?
[This message was edited by Mike on March 09, 2004 at 15:10.]
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Mike,
You're no longer worth arguing with. Your crackpot conclusions are exposed to all but the willingly idolatrous. Your methods are dishonest, your reading comprehension non-existent, and your reasonings ludicrous. Watching you and those who would encourage you discuss The Word of God is like watching Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles compete at a game of darts.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Zixar
Now, now, Raf. I'm surprised that you can't put it all together any better.
Wierwille only made those mistakes you keep harping on because he was a flawed individual who only WISHED he were the man he knew to be. Sadly, not even he was able to truly spiritually MASTER the intricacies of PFAL. He was but a willing conduit, weaving the whole mystery of all time subtly into a little orange book without even seeing the forest he was planting the trees for. Imagine what he could have accomplished if not for human frailty! He was but our Moses, leading us to the sight of the Jordan of PFAL Mastery, but fated to die for his sins of the flesh before he reached the shore. Why do you resist Mike, our true Joshua, in his efforts to reclaim the Promised Land from the Philistines of the WayGB, the Amalekites of the OLGs, and the cruel yoke of the TVT?
Oh, yeah. It's because it's all idolatrous pigswill. Right.
Sorry, I forgot there for a moment.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Zixar,
I'm only announcing Our Joshua, I'm not him in the flesh.
BTW, isn't the name "Joshua" the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek name "Jesus" ?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
I know Jesus. I've talked to Jesus. Jesus is my savior.
Smikeol, you're no Jesus.
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
I just said that very thing!
I'm not him!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Zixar
Oh, don't sell yourself short, Mike. You've obviously taken PFAL to a degree never dreamed of by VPW. The only conclusion one can reach is that you're onto something even the Teacher couldn't see.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Zixar,
Because you rest on your partial and leaking memory, you are in a very bad position to say what Dr saw.
You see what you see, and that's about all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Mike,
You are in error, once again, in divining my attitude toward PFAL and my attitude toward the scriptures. This doesn't surprise me, as your idolatry blinds you to the truth in so many areas. But let me make something clear:
PFAL has indisputable errors that are not attributable to copyists, as you laughably insist (dodge, distract, whatever). We were able to compile a pretty decent list of errors that are not open to dispute or interpretation. You respond by rewriting PFAL, claiming it doesn't say what it says about the perfection of the written word. Fine, be my guest. But your big mistake is in thinking that PFAL's errors are limited to the indisputable.
PFAL is wrong about the law of believing. It's wrong about the abundant life. It's wrong about the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven. It's wrong about the nature of faith. It is meekness to God's Word, not antipathy toward it, that led me to these conclusions. It was the willingness to admit I was wrong, not a stubborn refusal to consider the other side of an argument, that led me to these conclusions. So you accuse me of not being meek or willing to consider an alternative point of view. It's rank hypocrisy.
In the meantime your claims have become increasingly hysterical. Jesus didn't have faith (pistis) because faith (pistis) wasn't available yet. He COULD have believing (pistis) because believing (pistis) WAS available. But he couldn't have faith (pistis).
Do you have any idea how much damage you are doing to the legacy of Victor Paul Wierwille by insisting on this garbage? You claim to revere PFAL, but speaking as someone who got a lot out of that class and those books, I consider your ludicrous thesis (and it is YOUR THESIS, not God's) to be an insult to PFAL and to everyone who took it.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on March 09, 2004 at 17:37.]
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
Mike Posted:
Wrong Mike, and another disingenous dodge. God has not stated that PFAL is God-breathed (unless you are God). YOU have made these claims and only you that I can tell so far. Show me where "God" has made this claim? You can't - not without circular reasoning.By your method and reasoning, one could make any number of unsupportable statements and then when challenged delcare, "I’m simply announcing His [God's] position. He [God] can shoulder the burden of proof ..." -- A neat little cop out typically used by religious fanatics and wannabe prophets/cultists.
Your whole spiel boils down to nothing more than 'God told me to tell you .. blah blah blah'. It lacks any substance.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
alfakat
Mike, Mike, Mike...-- I have studied the "unreliable tatters and remnants" concerning the methods and tactics of LJC and his communication unto men. I do not see your methods as lining up with his...sorry, your message and methods just do not line up...I suppose you will blame that on my immaturity, my reliance on "tatters and remnants", my ego, my old nature, my failure to get "born-again" of Christ-formed-in-you" or some other of a thousand and one excuses,er, reasons...
I would say you have failed here, Mike---- after a year and 4 months and 2700 or so interminably long posts---it Just is NOt working....no crowds of enraptured followers, no disciples, no apostles, none of it.....WHY????????
ps that question was RHETORICAL...no answer expected....
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Mike... you have a message you want to deliver.
You say you see (to paraphrase) 'People like me coming in here and dragging others away from your message, preventing them from receiving it'... (again, that was paraphrased)...
Michael, we're dragging away the crippled and maimed bodies that are lieing all about after you machine gun them down with your viscious, hateful, condescending attacks... that's all...
You may think it's "us" that are keeping your message from being delivered... it's not.
It's you. Why do you think very few bother to read your posts? They're turned off by your manner. I'll repeat what I said at the end of my earlier post:
If you want to be mad at someone for slowing down your mission... look in the mirror.It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Mike, you posted over on the poll thread:
Now read your last couple of dozen posts and tell me who is name calling.God is not happy with the job your doing. He doesn't approve of your behavior.
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Tom,
There’s a difference between vicious name calling and poorly fitting the names to the individual. Jesus called a few some names who deserved it. The Pharisees he called hypocrites and Peter, at one point, he called Satan. Paul too called someone a whited sepulcher.
There’s no viciousness in my heart, although I can be angry at times and righteously angry at that. I try to sternly deal with heavy error and those in deep error sometimes need such sternness, as well do their audiences.
***
As for your dragging bodies, because of two poignant posts by shazdancer and Oakspear on the poll thread, I am re-thinking my desire to stay here on About the Way.
I’m ready and willing to go to jail... er...uh... the Doctrinal Forum to keep the peace. Shaz and Oak showed me an angle I hadn’t considered much before.
.... huh? What’s that music I hear...? Oh Yeah! I remember that golden oldie: They’re coming to take me away ha ha! They’re coming to take me away. To the doctrinal Forum, where life is...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
karmicdebt
Righteously angry....the ace up the sleeve people pull out when they know their speech and actions are contrary to any religious doctrine they believe...
The only time they can act unloving, unkind and judgemental...and still think they are in "fellowship"...whatever the heck that means..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
karmicdebt
uh...I believe Jesus called Satan - Satan...but what do I know...I follow the middle path...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Thank you, Mike.
(Especially good of you to reconsider, since Paw already told you he was going to put you there in the future anyway....)
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
shaz,
To mangle a quote from someone a hundred years ago, when someone buys their cyber ink by the barrel, you gotta respect them.
And really, who am I to complain to someone who gave me a soapbox.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
karmicdebt,
I agree with you that the idea of righteous anger grew to an abomination. I’ve posted on that here, that tough love is cheap and easy for those who want to skip around gentle love and loving enemies.
But don’t forget that Jesus Christ, who was all love, DID get angry at times and tough at times. That’s where the description of Jesus as the “man of steel and velvet†came from.
One of his tough guy times was when Peter was getting into false, religious humility.
Mark 8:33
But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples,
he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan:
for thou savourest not the things that be of God,
but the things that be of men.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Hi Mike,
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and if you really believe this, that's your option. However, since Dr. Wierwille taught that tithing was something entirely different in CSBP, and you have taught us that we should get back to the original Wierwille writings, well ... do you see the apparent problem ?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Mike said:
Sure he did... but very seldomly... and not at the drop of a hat whenever someone disagreed with him...God is not happy with the job you're doing. He doesn't approve of your approach or delivery.
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Tom,
How does God feel about all the other posters here?
Can you give us ALL our report cards, and not just me?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.