quote:You didn't see my response to you several days ago, because you aren't reading all that I post. You sample it only, and then shoot from the hip of only having partial knowledge of my position.
Partial knowledge of your "position" is quite enough to reject it.
It's kinda like trying to get a patent on a perpetual motion device. The US Patent Office will not consider a patent on any device that claims perpetual motion. Just the claim of perpetual motion is sufficient to reject the patent application, regardless of any other redeeming features of the device. Once they see "perpetual motion" or "free energy" in the application, it is rejected. They do not even look a the rest of the claims or the specifics. There is no need to.
Your "position" rests on the premises that PFAL is God-breathed and that Wierwille's "final last lost teaching" is also God-breathed and worthy of obedience. Both are false premises.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
Hmm, the Home Depot's here have them Tom. I've been able to navigate that process uccessfully a couple times. People there are usually helpful. Supermarkets have the Power Shoppers, the true Hunter/Gatherer types. Vicious stuff. You fall behind, do a price check or even just look like you're a newbie and you're gonna get trampled under some Mom's Addidas and shuffled off to the "back" of the store through those plastic door thingies back by the coolers, for some remedial Shopping Training. I've heard stories...it's a hard way to go. I don't even try to to go food shopping in those places unless I'm fully rested and warmed up and then only when I have a Guide, someone who knows local custom, store layout and can speak the language.
I was standing all alone against the world outside. You were searching for a place to hide....
Now I've found you, there's no more emptiness inside. When we're hungry love will keep us alive.
Okay, 4 pages of posts since I last looked have yielded some, er, weird moments, to say the least...
quote:You are assuming that event (1){Christ's appearing for his saints} takes no time. But this event is our transformation from the senses to the spiritual. It takes time for a human mind to learn these things.
I no longer believe we are zapped with a perfectly renewed mind at the Gathering, but that we are TAUGHT it, and that some may learn faster or slower than others, depending mostly on desire (and not so much on intelligence).
Far from seeing this process a quick zapping (which would violate all we were taught about God not possessing anyone’s mind), I see it taking a significant amount of time...years for most. During this time Jesus Christ teaches us, and this is why we have the PFAL books.
Before I comment, let me say that I have not a shred of "residual trinitarianism," as you call it. I left the organized church when I was 10 years old, having never received any schooling in the Trinity. I had no big problem accepting Jesus Christ as not being God, although I have entertained discussions over the years as to the veracity of my view. I have noted that many church-going Christians do not believe in it, either. However, your view that Christ will be teaching us out of the PFAL book during he Appearing Administration has no basis in scripture OR in PFAL. VPW's quote about a "series of events" during that time are exactly the ones he then lists: the appearing for his saints, the events of Revelation, and the appearing with his saints. THAT is a series of events. Anything else is just conjecture.
Mike on Jesus being born again...
quote:He did get spirit UPON him, like all the prophets, but he never got it as SEED within because that wasn't available until Pentecost.
He had God's seed PHYSICALLY, in his body and soul, but not spiritually.
WHEN did he get it? HOW did he get it?
The trinitarian notions you cary are that he didn't need to get it and that he already knows everything.
I don't know what he knows or doesn't know -- I would think that if he doesn't know something, he asks the guy on his left, GOD! I also recall that the Bible AND PFAL both taught us that the new birth was a spiritual birth, the giving of holy spirit, and that was meant to be a token of the better thing (Eph. 1:13-14). Jesus already got the better thing, having already been raised, our firstfruits, as Tom said (and you disparaged).
Mike on lying...
quote:Have you ever wondered why politicians are so stingy with their words? It’s because they do not have a coherent story to tell, and they dare not tell the truth, so they feed only a tiny stream of info out to people. They have to keep serious track of any lies they tell so as not to trip up in a contradiction.
Have you ever wondered why I am confident enough to post thousands of times here? It’s because I am being honest and I am simply referring to what I’ve been taught, both by Dr and by Jesus Christ.
Frankly, Mike, your lengthy and superfluous posts have led me to believe that YOU do not have a coherent story to tell. Your quote above sounds like YOU. Then you add in that both VPW and Jesus Chris taught you. So PFAL is only a jumping off point for what you want to tell people? You want to impart the personal revelations that Christ gave you?
Mike on ABS...
quote:For many years, after the meltdown, I refused to give to any splinter groups because, like politicians, they were so stingy with conversation with me.
Methinks they cut you short, because they didn't want to go around and around with you on the very doctrines you have been trying to espouse on GSpot.
quote:Instead, I’d give waitresses bigger tips, or I’d occasionally give a $20 bill to a homeless person. For years I did alternate ways of giving like that constantly, because I knew the law of giving was real. I realized it wasn’t the BEST way to give, but it was worse giving it to reprobate Corpse Nazis. When I finally learned how to tithe to Jesus Christ himself, I felt much better.
Okay, I'll bite. How do you tithe to Christ himself? Do you throw it up in the air, and what he catches he keeps??
Mike on Tom...
quote:poster boy of "Blind Reading"...Careful readers of my posts will come across your badgering and say to themselves, "That Tom Strange is pretty stupid."....obsessed with contradicting Mike...tag along my threads and try to do nothing but cause confusion...You are lazy...shooting off your ignorant mouth...pranky posts...
Nice, Mike -- exactly the sort of thing you say you hate in others, you do yourself. I actually find Tom to be a poster who likes to diffuse tensions when they get out of bounds. And when he decides to say something of substance, he often reveals that he knows precisely what is being talked about.
For me, Mike, I care little about what the next administration is going to be like. It is my hope that there will be one, on the order of that predicted in the Bible. Meantime, I am concentrating on improving the quality of what I do in THIS life, because it is the only one of this life that I get, and time is short. And the greatest thing that will continue in this life AND the next is love. Check this out, Mike -- VPW quoted it, so you gotta respect it (!), "Charity never faileth, but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail, whether there be tongues, they shall cease...but when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away...then I shall know even as also I am known...." That is plenty for me to work on.
I’m back from work, and I will address your question. But first I have a few little questions for you.
My first question to you is WHY?
Why are you asking that question?
What are you going to do with the answer?
Don't try to bs me that you want to learn, because if that was your intent, you’d go back and simply search my posts, OR you would have been a little sharper in reading them as I wrote them and you’d already have the answser.
The fact that you didn’t do that tells me you question falls into a category of idle curiosity, OR a mild desire to trip me up or for new material to razz me on.
I say “mild†desire because someone like WordWolf has a raging desire to shut me up, and he proves it by reading a little closer.
So, Tom, part of my reason for this righteous dodge is to prove you. I’m putting you through some paces, and I’m learning a little about you as you reveal more of your hand.
Well Mike... it's a very simple answer. I just want to know if that's what you believe. That's all. No hidden agenda, no tricks, no search for new material... where our "conversations" go in the future, I don't know... but as of this moment, and through these posts where I've posed the question, I just simply want to know your answer...
Don't be so paranoid dude... there's nobody following you!
Now... do you believe that Jesus Christ will be teaching from the PFAL books?
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
You didn’t answer that question very well at all. I ask WHY and you say BECAUSE.
That’s lame. You have your reasons, but now it’s YOU that’s dodging. Is this a righteous dodge, the kind Jesus was an expert at and that the Bible tells us we should do, or are you just hiding your real motive? Or is it just an idle curiosity?
What about my question of what are you going to do with after you’ve got it? You didn’t even attempt to answer that one.
You see, when this issue of dodging dumb questions arose long ago here I pointed out among other things, that EVERYONE dodges questions; it’s just a matter of degree and justification.
How much and how well and how quickly a questions are dodged is the degree part.
Justification relates to is the answer anyone’s business?
or will the answer be used for the wrong purposes,
or whether answering the question will help or hinder learning.
A good teacher will dodge a question
if he knows a student will learn more
by seeking the answer on his own
or by thinking it through from what he already knows.
Like Tom you are revealing your hand more, so I can know whether or not spending much time on you is a worthwhile thing to do.
You wrote: “Partial knowledge of your "position" is quite enough to reject it.â€
You didn’t have to confirm that, but thanks for making it easier for me. I could easily tell you were only skimming my posts the way you crying about me not responding to you, even though I had, it was just buried in a post mass addressed to several people. It seems your desire to trip me up might be a little stronger that Tom’s, because you probably did search for posts that said “Goey,†at the top before you moaned to me that I had ignored you.
***
You wrote: “It's kinda like trying to get a patent on a perpetual motion device. The US Patent Office will not consider a patent on any device that claims perpetual motion. Just the claim of perpetual motion is sufficient to reject the patent application, regardless of any other redeeming features of the device. Once they see "perpetual motion" or "free energy" in the application, it is rejected. They do not even look a the rest of the claims or the specifics. There is no need to.â€
I disagree that it’s “kinda like†that really. It just looks like that to your simpleton sight.
Physics is a very exact science because it only deals with very simple concise ideas. In doing so, the concept of energy was very well understood over 100 years ago. The idea of a perpetual motion machine is very simple to prove false from the beginning. NOT SO with the very complex arena of human affairs on earth and the two Gods that are warring over it.
God’s truth is simple, but the error that has saturated His creation is very complex.
Your hunch that I’m wrong about God re-issuing His Word to us in PFAL has nothing even closely resembling a proof behind it.
That He can’t or didn’t really do it is no where near proved anywhere on earth.
The proof of the impossibility of perpetual motion is simple and totally accomplished.
The proof that God didn’t reissue His Word in PFAL totally non-existent.
Well Mikey, you could take a poll to see if anyone else thinks I dodged your questions.
Let me see if I understand you Mikey...
You ask me "why do I ask?"
I tell you "it's a very simple answer. I just want to know if that's what you believe. That's all."
You ask me "what are you going to do with it?"
I tell you "No hidden agenda, no tricks, no search for new material... where our "conversations" go in the future, I don't know... but as of this moment, and through these posts where I've posed the question, I just simply want to know your answer..."
I'm pretty sure the rest of your post was filled with statements of assumption and accusations. Those were the only two questions you asked.
Now, do you think you can answer my simple, straightforward question without resorting to name calling and accusations? Or will you simply "address" it again?
What are you afraid of? If it's what you believe, it's what you believe. Are you a man of your convictions?
I simply want to know the answer. "yes" or "no"
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
Have you noticed the similarities between Jesus’ last words, Paul’s last words, Peter’s last words, and Dr’s last words?
Yes to Jesus, Paul and Peter, but no to VPW. VP cannot be compared with or even named in the same sentence with Jesus, Paul, or Peter.
A long time ago I got a magazine from a guy named Armstrong. He asked, "When did Jesus get born again?" His answer was, "When God raised Him from the dead." That made sense to me. Romans 1:4 says so. I do not see any reason to argue about it.
Mike... are you a man of your convictions? I only want "yes" or "no"... I didn't ask you why... I wouldn't think it would take so long to answer a simple question... I'll have to read your answer in the morning... I'm going to sleep...
...what are you afraid of?
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
[This message was edited by Tom Strange on March 09, 2004 at 1:08.]
Egads! I was working on a response to shaz and now all these additional posts! Don't you people ever sleep? I could understand it if you were all on the West Coast.
Ok, I'll post to shaz and they start again on you others.
You wrote: “Before I comment, let me say that I have not a shred of "residual trinitarianism," as you call it. I left the organized church when I was 10 years old, having never received any schooling in the Trinity. I had no big problem accepting Jesus Christ as not being God, although I have entertained discussions over the years as to the veracity of my view.â€
You were in an organized church for YEARS, and a corrupt one at that, the First Church of TVT. There was lots of residual trinitarianism in TWI, where God-like properties are thought to be present in Jesus Christ. The idea of Jesus’ omniscience was rampant in the TVT. The idea of Jesus being excepted or having a waiver from the need to be born again was there too, as well as in some posts on this page. Plus you grew up in Western civilization, where it is saturated with full-on trinitarianism, as well as the more subtle traces like I just mentioned.
I don’t buy your immunity to residual trinitarianism at all, but I’d love to be proved wrong. You simple claim doesn’t do it for me.
***
You wrote: “However, your view that Christ will be teaching us out of the PFAL book during he Appearing Administration has no basis in scripture OR in PFAL.â€
How long did you look for it in the scriptures and in PFAL? A few seconds? A minute? All day? Try spending 6 years, and I’ll respect your opinion here a little more.
***
You wrote: “VPW's quote about a "series of events" during that time are exactly the ones he then lists: the appearing for his saints, the events of Revelation, and the appearing with his saints. THAT is a series of events. Anything else is just conjecture.â€
Again, with less than a day’s thought on what I said, I’d say it’s you who are in conjecture.
I know that a process must take place where we receive the perfectly renewed mind. I know Dr taught than minds change slowly. I know God does not posses minds or zap them. He tried to teach the mystery to Peter, but Peter wasn’t big enough then to receive it. Tradition meant too much to him, and even a thrice repeated vision plus an angelic coincidence only had a partial and temporary effect on him.
Let’s look at that page 227 in GMWD again.
The record begins with:
“The great hope of the Christian Church is the return of Christ and our gathering together unto him. There are aspects of Christ’s return which we find most clearly explained by God’s rightly-divided Word. In order to understand the coming of Christ, we must also understand “the mechanics†of his coming. Jesus’ first coming began with his conception and birth and ended with his ascension, over thirty years later. There were many significant phases and events during this time.â€
So there are MANY “significant phases and events†in the mechanics of Christ’s first coming, and this will help us understand his second coming, as the next sentence will say with the use of the word “similar.â€
The record continues:
“In this, the second coming is similar: it will also cover a period of time and encompass several significant phases and events.â€
So SEVERAL “significant phases and events†are associated with his second coming.
Note also that a “period of time†is mentioned. I know you, shaz, are not under this misimpression, but many think that the whole shooting match is a “moment in time.†This should dispel that notion.
The record continues:
“There are four basic events included in the times of the end, when Christ returns. This is their order: (1) Christ’s coming for the Church, the Body of Christ, to gather them together and meet them in the air; (2) the events of the Book of Revelation with Christ’s coming with the Church; (3) the first and second resurrections; and finally, (4) the very end, the final point [telos], when death is destroyed and all things are subdued to God.â€
In event (4) is the destruction of death, as I Corinthians 15 talks about, as well as the “moment in time.†HERE it’s quick and fast, the way we receive our new body.
But what happened to the PHASES?
We just saw “significant phases and events†repeated twice above, but now “phases†are missing. These 4 items are events only. The phases are conspicuously missing. They are in addition to the events, simply not mentioned here, but clearly implied.
AND we have another word to consider. These aren’t just “events†but “BASIC events†that are listed. So there are be some not-so-basic events not mentioned, but implied.
See what happens when you use conjecture to guide your thinking? You didn’t read it carefully. There are lots of things that need to happen, and receiving the perfectly renewed mind is one, and that’s a slow deal.
Jesus Christ is going to have to teach us.
Remember how Dr used to say at the Rock of Ages that it was a dress rehearsal for the Gathering Together? Dr also likened the twig fellowship to the Gathering Together. What happens in a twig and at the Rock? TEACHING. Does that teaching take time? Does everyone learn it all at once in sync? Does everyone learn at a pace related to their desire? Yes, No, Yes.
What's the difference between a dress rehearsal and the real thing?
In the theatre a dress rehearsal is one where it's ALMOST the same as the real show, all the props and costumes are in place, and there are no interruptions or re-takes. In theatre the only difference is in one single area: the audience is not the normal paying customers, but friends, relatives and reviewers.
The one essential difference between the dress rehearsal of our Gathering, the Rock of Ages, and the real thing is not the supposed astronautics, but the teacher. In the dress rehearsal we got VPW, in the real thing we get the Lord Jesus Christ.
***
You wrote: “I don't know what he knows or doesn't know -- I would think that if he doesn't know something, he asks the guy on his left, GOD!â€
If the seating scene were a 5-senses situation, yes, but it’s not. We are told that it’s spiritual. If we try to reason it out by the senses we can miss it.
From the revelation we have, Jesus Christ is one of the flock. He’s one of us, not an exceptional dude like John the Baptist who had spirit at birth. Jesus could have just as easily, according to your reasoning, asked God for spirit long before he was thirty years old, but he didn’t and God didn’t tell him to.
Jesus had to struggle through all that we struggle through. He had to read the scriptures when he was young, just like us. He has to be born again just like us, still, even after Pentecost. He still has to learn about the next administration just like us, from the written Word first, and then he can get specifics by revelation when and if necessary. Remeber, he’s still a man, just like us.
***
You wrote: “I also recall that the Bible AND PFAL both taught us that the new birth was a spiritual birth...â€
The whole point of Dr’s last teaching was to get us who knew a lot to come back to PFAL and master the texts, not simply “recall†them.
As I said well above, earlier today, our whole point of view on the first birth and the second birth is at a kindergarten level unless we closely scrutinize the texts.
Dr made a big deal out of viewpoints: God’s versus man’s, the spiritual viewpoint versus the natural. I made a bid deal out of it too with two big threads “The Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching of VPW†and it’s sequel “The Spiritually Divine over the Naturally Factual.â€
I posted that our kindergarten natural point of view doesn’t jive with God’s view on what is the spiritual new birth and what is the natural birth.
In your “recall†you are working the natural point of view where receiving pneuma hagion is the ultimate end all. But from God’s point of view this is only the first birth. The second is when we get Christ formed in our soul.
This is very new stuff to you. You’ve only heard it for one day. I spent 6 years going over these things. Please think about it a long while with your books open. There is something very big here. This Christ Formed material is very obscure, even though Dr taught it at least three times. Hardly any grads have ever pondered it.
***
You wrote: “Frankly, Mike, your lengthy and superfluous posts have led me to believe that YOU do not have a coherent story to tell. Your quote above sounds like YOU. Then you add in that both VPW and Jesus Chris taught you. So PFAL is only a jumping off point for what you want to tell people? You want to impart the personal revelations that Christ gave you?â€
No. I want people to have personal revelations of Jesus Christ themselves. There’s no way to recognize Jesus Christ physically. We must rise to his level and see him spiritually. The KJV won’t do that. Researching the critical Greeks wont do that. God provided a way for us to rise and see Christ and that’s by mastering His written Word as He gave it in PFAL.
***
I had mentioned that splinter groups leaders were like politicians and stingy with conversation with me, to which you wrote: “Methinks they cut you short, because they didn't want to go around and around with you on the very doctrines you have been trying to espouse on GSpot.â€
You got your timing wrong. The splinter stingies were before 1998 when I came into a new set of things to learn. I was talking about asking leaders what was going on in 1987 and ’88 and ’89 and ’90. I tried to ask details concerning THEIR message and they shined me on. With one leader I counted either 6 or 10 (I forget) completel different dodging techniques before I got into an outright confrontation with him on his stinginess. These were not righteous dodges; he was hiding his ignorance and sloppiness and had great disdain for me, a lowly non-Corps. In those days their modus operundi was “Follow us and don’t ask questions.†I’m talking TWI, CES, and GRR.
***
You wrote: “Okay, I'll bite. How do you tithe to Christ himself? Do you throw it up in the air, and what he catches he keeps??â€
No, it’s obey the man of God and master the PFAL books so he can be seen.
***
You wrote: “..the sort of thing you say you hate in others, you do yourself.â€
I hate to see anger and jeering for no reason other than something new is being said. I don’t enter other people’s threads and jeer at them or get angry at what they are doing that thread. I almost did this on the Brady thread, but not quite. That was an exception.
When others poke at me I can poke back.
Jesus Christ had anger when he saw others doing wrong or trying to obstruct his mission. I reserve the right to get in someone’s face twice the strength they come at me with. I don’t always exercise that right, but be warned, not just you shaz but everyone, I don’t have to take anyone’s $hit. I’m know where the line is, and once in a while I may slip up and cross it. When I do, I usually recognize it and retreat.
I will fight back when people try to obstruct me.
Nor will I submit to you, shaz, as my judge in handling matters with others.
If you want to be a judge, why are you leaving undone all the injustices perpetrated on me. A small few other posters here, NOT IN AGREEMENT WITH MY POSTS, have spoken up against the outlandish treatment afforded me. You, shaz, have disqualified yourself from even being a counselor of mine as to my line crossings by your silence on the many more line crossings of others against me.
If Ginger Tea or Abigail say something to me on this subject I listen, but you shaz, might as well save your cyber ink for something I will listen to.
***
You wrote: "For me, Mike, I care little about what the next administration is going to be like. It is my hope that there will be one, on the order of that predicted in the Bible. Meantime..."
Meanwhile? It’s HERE NOW! We are at the end of time. This life is over. The reason God’s 1942 promise gave rise to the PFAL writings was to give rise to US. Only a careful mastery of the texts will reveal this. Obey and see.
***
"Charity never faileth, but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail, whether there be tongues, they shall cease...but when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away...then I shall know even as also I am known...."
Amen to love. Why do you think I endure the crap here? I care about my family.
[This message was edited by Mike on March 09, 2004 at 2:05.]
You wrote: “Well Mikey, you could take a poll to see if anyone else thinks I dodged your questions.â€
I operate by principle not polls. If majority opinion meant anything to me I’d be long gone.
***
You wrote: “I tell you "it's a very simple answer. I just want to know if that's what you believe. That's all."â€
That answer is a tautology. It’s not an answer just a statement of the obvious. I already knew you “just want to know if that's what I believe†other wise you wouldn’t have asked it. If I take your “just want†and “That’s all†as the total answer then it looks like idle curiosity. But if it’s idle curiosity, then why ask it so often? Something more than idle curiosity looks like it’s driving your desire. What is that something else is another way to phrase my original question that you so far have dodged. Unless you’re just really into idle curiosity. But if that’s the case, why should I bother with such an idle thinker?
***
To my question of "what are you going to do with it?" you answer:
"No hidden agenda, no tricks, no search for new material...â€
This is not an answer of why, but why not. Still no answer of why.
This does slightly eliminate the range of possible “whys†but not much.
You went on with your answer: “where our "conversations" go in the future, I don't know...â€
Another “almost answer†but then you cast doubt on it with “I don’t know...â€
You went on with “...but as of this moment, and through these posts where I've posed the question, I just simply want to know your answer..."
This is just a repetition of the above idle question semi-answer.
Tom welcome to the dodgers club. Now all you got to do is get righteous about it.
***
Now, do you think you can answer my simple, straightforward question without resorting to name calling and accusations? Or will you simply "address" it again?
Not so much fun getting called names and accused is it?
***
You wrote: “What are you afraid of? If it's what you believe, it's what you believe. Are you a man of your convictions?â€
If I posted it before, was I afraid then? Was I afraid to challenge you to search out my posting of it?
***
Here is the next question I want you to answer. Try not to dodge.
If the PFAL texts are REALLY God-breathed, would you be interested in it?
Here’s a variation on the same question:
If the PFAL texts are REALLY God-breathed, would Jesus Christ want you to interested in it?
Another:
If the PFAL texts are REALLY God-breathed, would Jesus Christ want to help you really, truly, spiritually understand it?
Another:
If the PFAL texts are REALLY God-breathed, would Jesus Christ take action to help you understand it?
Another:
If the PFAL texts are REALLY God-breathed, would that action Jesus Christ takes to help you understand it be in the form of possessing your mind and re-wiring it to understand?
Do you see where I am going with this?
I am SO tired of people like you (you are not alone) merely looking at the form of my words and not the content.
If you had been thinking through, FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, the things I post, then the answer to your question should be totally obvious.
The fact that you ask this question reveals much more to me than you simply missing my posts where I say these exact same things.
The fact that you ask this question reveals to me than you simply don’t think about what I’m saying any more than what you need for more fodder for your confusion machine.
Your question proves to me that you haven’t heard a single thing I’ve said about how I REALLY believe that PFAL was given by revelation.
I have another question:
If you said something about 2000 times and had proof that the most important and often repeated thing was NOT pondered in any significant way by someone, would you want to pay much attention to a dumb question with an obvious answer from such a someone?
Let me say this:
That the most important and often repeated thing I’ve said some 2000 times here is that PFAL was given by revelation to Dr, not always in the divine dictation way, but in a SOMETIMES roundabout way like through Kenyon and so on, but also in a very direct way of general guidance through senses research.
Now having that, that I do definitely and totally believe PFAL is God-breathed, and given the exercises above, do you still have to ask the question of me?
After all this, do you still want me to answer you ?
Is there ANY doubt in your mind that the answer is YES I believe that?
Some posters have come lately to the "Mike Wars" and haven't seen your opinions/beliefs posted previously.
A question about your beliefs might be a desire to be sure that your sincere, serious statement is not mistaken for sarcasm or humor, or that those of us who disagree with you haven't misrepresented you.
Pour a little ice water on your head, man.
Ya' know...cool off
It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight
are you going to explain how "burden of proof" works to our
erstwhile scientist, or shall I?
Ok. I'll do it, but as you know Mike operates by his own rules which he makes up as he goes. So it is doubtful that it will make any impact on Mike.
Mike posted:
quote:Your hunch that I’m wrong about God re-issuing His Word to us in PFAL has nothing even closely resembling a proof behind it.
That He can’t or didn’t really do it is no where near proved anywhere on earth.
The proof of the impossibility of perpetual motion is simple and totally accomplished.
The proof that God didn’t reissue His Word in PFAL totally non-existent.
You are reasoning by analogy, sir!
My analogy was simply descriptive and was offered to show by example why reading your every word is not necessary to see the folly of your position(s).
However, you are reasoning by the logical fallacy of Burden of Proof.
The Burden of Proof rests upon the one making the initial claim or statement - which would be you, since you are the one who has declared PFAL to be the God-breathed reissuance of His written Word. The fallacy is to attempt shift the burden of proof against that statement to the other side.
A good definition is: "Burden of proof is a fallacy where a claimant asserts that he does not have to prove his claim, but that his opponent has to disprove it."
"The truth needs no proof, I am just here to declare it. Where is your proof that that he doesn't exist ? No one on earth can prove that he doesn't exist ..."
-------------------------------
The fallacy of burden of proof is usually used when someone has a very weak position with little or no facts or evidence with which to support it. Short of relevant facts and evidence, they will shift the burden of proof to their opponent(s), errantly thinking that it somehow supports their position. At best it is a dodge.
Mike, the burden of proof is on you and has been on you since you have made you assertations. You can deny this all you want, but it still remains.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
quote:The proof that God didn’t reissue His Word in PFAL totally non-existent.
IF PFAL is God-breathed, THEN PFAL is correct about the characteristics of written work that is God-breathed.
IF PFAL is correct about the characteristics of written work that is God-breathed, THEN written work that is God-breathed will contain no errors or contradictions.
IF PFAL is God-breathed, THEN PFAL will contain no errors or contradictions.
PFAL contains errors and contradictions.
One example of a blatant error: "There was no pronounceable name for the true God, in contrast to pagan gods who were always called by name." (from Jesus Christ is Not God). That statement is plain wrong. Period. The true God was called by name, often. Out loud. Which means it was pronounceable. Wierwille was wrong.
Contradiction: "All without distinction means all within a certain category." (PFAL)
"All WITH distinction means all within a certain category." (Jesus Christ is Not God).
SINCE PFAL contains both an error and a contradiction (neither of which is a typo), THEN PFAL is not God-breathed.
Dodge, distract, witness if you can but never admit an error or a contradiction is an error or a contradiction.
xxxxxx
After I posted this, I've been reading some of the items you posted this weekend, Mike. Umm, they're stupid. I mean flat out stupid. Not worthy of the time or effort you're putting into them.
How did Jesus get born again? When did he get faith since it wasn't available until after Pentecost (news flash: faith was available before Pentecost. Difficult verses in light of the clear, remember?) Jesus teaching out of a PFAL book?
This is madness, Mike. Not worthy of debate. Sheer and utter stupidity.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on March 09, 2004 at 11:56.]
The scriptures state that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God. Obviously a figure of speech indicating a closeness and a preferred relationship. My Bible says (and VPW quotes) that Jesus always did his Father's will. Is that a perfectly renewed mind? If Jesus needs to know anything, can't he ask God?
You said, "Remember how Dr used to say at the Rock of Ages that it was a dress rehearsal for the Gathering Together?" Yes, I do. He said it was because of the love that was shared, not the teachings. We also had refreshments, entertainment, the book store, and Bless Patrol, but I don't think you mean to imply that those will be a part of the Appearing Administration also!
You also said...
quote:From the revelation we have, Jesus Christ is one of the flock. He’s one of us, not an exceptional dude like John the Baptist who had spirit at birth. Jesus could have just as easily, according to your reasoning, asked God for spirit long before he was thirty years old, but he didn’t and God didn’t tell him to.
Jesus had to struggle through all that we struggle through. He had to read the scriptures when he was young, just like us. He has to be born again just like us, still, even after Pentecost. He still has to learn about the next administration just like us, from the written Word first, and then he can get specifics by revelation when and if necessary. Remember, he’s still a man, just like us.
Uh, didn't God give him a name, didn't he earn a name, etc. etc.? And who says he "has to be" born again? You do -- I don't see it in scripture, nor in PFAL. There are a couple of areas in which he is obviously NOT like us, and I don't have to have "residual trinitarianism" or TVT brainwashing OR cultural inundation to see it. Jesus was born divinely -- I wasn't. Jesus always did the Father's will. I don't. Jesus was raised bodily, and resurrected. I wasn't, or at least, not yet. Jesus sits at God's right hand -- I do through him, he doesn't through me.
You said...
quote:The whole point of Dr’s last teaching was to get us who knew a lot to come back to PFAL and master the texts, not simply "recall" them.
Sorry, don't have the books in front of me any more, nor do I want to. Yet for all that, my "recall" hasn't been too shabby, by your own admission.
You said...
quote:In your "recall" you are working the natural point of view where receiving pneuma hagion is the ultimate end all.
Nope, I never said that receiving pneuma hagion was the ultimate end all. Yet you were the one who said that Jesus needed to get born again à la Pentecost.
Your statement that tithing today is studying PFAL is just absurd.
You also said...
I hate to see anger and jeering for no reason other than something new is being said. I don’t enter other people’s threads and jeer at them or get angry at what they are doing that thread.
Yet you entered one of my threads on a completely different subject (narcissism) and made a sarcastic remark. I'm sure you remember.
I am not your judge, Mike. I don't know you. I only know what you say on these forums. And what you say you believe in does not line up with your behavior here (not to mention that your views are often without basis other than your own opinion), and that is what I have called into question. If you don't want to hear loud protests on your pro-PFAL views, then don't post on a discussion forum full of ex-Wayfers. No one has stopped you from opening your own website (people do it all the time, including ex-Way) and posting whatever you please without rebuttal. And frankly, you give as much or more than you get, so don't whine when you get.
I’ve calmed down. My rage was not MERELY against you but against the pattern you were the latest participant in, and that’s not paying attention to the heart or the details of my posts, but the outward form only, and for purposes that thwart understanding, even in other readers, in what I post. I wanted to let you, but even more to let others know that I’m hip to this diversion and that it won’t stop me.
***
You wrote: “Why are you ....ed?â€
I WAS ....ed because I see my family drowning and the life guards are dragging people farther out to sea.
***
You wrote: “It's like Oak said above, I just wanted to be sure that I wasn't reading something into your posts that wasn't really there.â€
What Oak said struck me deep because I was forgetting that there are always VERY new people to come late into this discussion. I don’t think you are one of them, though. If you really wanted to know what I said, why didn’t you see it where I answered much the same question before, and in amazement that people hadn’t seen the obvious connection that IFFF the texts we have been given are God-breathed, then SURELY Jesus Christ would be into them bigtime.
That you, and the questioners/mockers before you with that same question, didn’t see this obvious connection and had to question mo on it, told me that you weren’t thinking through, even for the slightest duration, my position.
Part of an intelligent discussion is being able to TEMPORARILY put yourself into the shoes of your opponent and thinking like he thinks, assuming what he assumes, and cranking through the logic FROM HIS point of view. This is the process I dragged you through in my last post to you last night.
Do you see now? Do you see now how it’s totally obvious that IF my assumption of PFAL being of God is set in cement, then it’s a very small step to see that Jesus Christ will be totally involved with it too?
Maybe you couldn’t buy that I was serious about PFAL being God-breathed in the first place, but that too implies that you weren’t paying any attention to all my posting for a year. I just don’t have time for gadflies who only want to poke fun or derision at the outward form of my posts.
This ability to TEMPORARILY put yourself into the shoes of your opponent and think like he thinks is crucial to any deep discussion, but it does require work. It also requires fearlessness.
I’ve seen MANY trinitarians, the full-on kind, who would sit down with me and our Bibles open and the more verses I put on the table for thought, the more they withdrew. They were afraid to consider, even for a moment, even for the rhetoric richness, even for a second they were afraid to think things through from my point of view.
I OFTEN have seen this same face of fear come on grads when I suggest that God really did re-issue His Word in PFAL, because like trinitarians, there are certain cherished traditions grads embrace, and challenging them is terrifying. I can show them that we were taught in RHST’s “Introduction to the Appendixes,†and in Jeramiah 36, and in the grand re-issue from the stars to stone and parchment, that God can and has done this before, but when fear grips a man, rational thought is impossible.
So, Tom, I figured you were tough enough to serve temporarily as an example for how others CAN be treated it they too try to interrupt me with poorly thought through distractions.
I did the same thing with E.W. Bullinger not long ago when he privately e-mailed me last year with an elaborate scheme to tug me off my position, and when it didn’t work he recently splashed it in public as if I had done something bad to him. When I rubbed his shiney little nose into his own $hit he protested that it would send a chilling effect to others, and he was right! That’s what I wanted to do, make him an example, that if you mess with me there MAY be consequences. I do have mercy and grace also, because I see My Daddy and my big Brother operate that was as well.
[This message was edited by Mike on March 09, 2004 at 14:09.]
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T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
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Goey
Mike,
Partial knowledge of your "position" is quite enough to reject it.
It's kinda like trying to get a patent on a perpetual motion device. The US Patent Office will not consider a patent on any device that claims perpetual motion. Just the claim of perpetual motion is sufficient to reject the patent application, regardless of any other redeeming features of the device. Once they see "perpetual motion" or "free energy" in the application, it is rejected. They do not even look a the rest of the claims or the specifics. There is no need to.
Your "position" rests on the premises that PFAL is God-breathed and that Wierwille's "final last lost teaching" is also God-breathed and worthy of obedience. Both are false premises.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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socks
Hmm, the Home Depot's here have them Tom. I've been able to navigate that process uccessfully a couple times. People there are usually helpful. Supermarkets have the Power Shoppers, the true Hunter/Gatherer types. Vicious stuff. You fall behind, do a price check or even just look like you're a newbie and you're gonna get trampled under some Mom's Addidas and shuffled off to the "back" of the store through those plastic door thingies back by the coolers, for some remedial Shopping Training. I've heard stories...it's a hard way to go. I don't even try to to go food shopping in those places unless I'm fully rested and warmed up and then only when I have a Guide, someone who knows local custom, store layout and can speak the language.
I was standing all alone against the world outside. You were searching for a place to hide....
Now I've found you, there's no more emptiness inside. When we're hungry love will keep us alive.
The Eagles
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shazdancer
Mike,
Okay, 4 pages of posts since I last looked have yielded some, er, weird moments, to say the least...
Before I comment, let me say that I have not a shred of "residual trinitarianism," as you call it. I left the organized church when I was 10 years old, having never received any schooling in the Trinity. I had no big problem accepting Jesus Christ as not being God, although I have entertained discussions over the years as to the veracity of my view. I have noted that many church-going Christians do not believe in it, either. However, your view that Christ will be teaching us out of the PFAL book during he Appearing Administration has no basis in scripture OR in PFAL. VPW's quote about a "series of events" during that time are exactly the ones he then lists: the appearing for his saints, the events of Revelation, and the appearing with his saints. THAT is a series of events. Anything else is just conjecture.Mike on Jesus being born again...
I don't know what he knows or doesn't know -- I would think that if he doesn't know something, he asks the guy on his left, GOD! I also recall that the Bible AND PFAL both taught us that the new birth was a spiritual birth, the giving of holy spirit, and that was meant to be a token of the better thing (Eph. 1:13-14). Jesus already got the better thing, having already been raised, our firstfruits, as Tom said (and you disparaged).Mike on lying...
Frankly, Mike, your lengthy and superfluous posts have led me to believe that YOU do not have a coherent story to tell. Your quote above sounds like YOU. Then you add in that both VPW and Jesus Chris taught you. So PFAL is only a jumping off point for what you want to tell people? You want to impart the personal revelations that Christ gave you?Mike on ABS...
Methinks they cut you short, because they didn't want to go around and around with you on the very doctrines you have been trying to espouse on GSpot.Okay, I'll bite. How do you tithe to Christ himself? Do you throw it up in the air, and what he catches he keeps??Mike on Tom...
Nice, Mike -- exactly the sort of thing you say you hate in others, you do yourself. I actually find Tom to be a poster who likes to diffuse tensions when they get out of bounds. And when he decides to say something of substance, he often reveals that he knows precisely what is being talked about.For me, Mike, I care little about what the next administration is going to be like. It is my hope that there will be one, on the order of that predicted in the Bible. Meantime, I am concentrating on improving the quality of what I do in THIS life, because it is the only one of this life that I get, and time is short. And the greatest thing that will continue in this life AND the next is love. Check this out, Mike -- VPW quoted it, so you gotta respect it (!), "Charity never faileth, but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail, whether there be tongues, they shall cease...but when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away...then I shall know even as also I am known...." That is plenty for me to work on.
Shaz
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Mike
Tom Strange,
I’m back from work, and I will address your question. But first I have a few little questions for you.
My first question to you is WHY?
Why are you asking that question?
What are you going to do with the answer?
Don't try to bs me that you want to learn, because if that was your intent, you’d go back and simply search my posts, OR you would have been a little sharper in reading them as I wrote them and you’d already have the answser.
The fact that you didn’t do that tells me you question falls into a category of idle curiosity, OR a mild desire to trip me up or for new material to razz me on.
I say “mild†desire because someone like WordWolf has a raging desire to shut me up, and he proves it by reading a little closer.
So, Tom, part of my reason for this righteous dodge is to prove you. I’m putting you through some paces, and I’m learning a little about you as you reveal more of your hand.
I have other reasons too.
So, WHY do you ask, Tom?
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Tom Strange
Well Mike... it's a very simple answer. I just want to know if that's what you believe. That's all. No hidden agenda, no tricks, no search for new material... where our "conversations" go in the future, I don't know... but as of this moment, and through these posts where I've posed the question, I just simply want to know your answer...
Don't be so paranoid dude... there's nobody following you!
Now... do you believe that Jesus Christ will be teaching from the PFAL books?
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
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Mike
Tom,
You didn’t answer that question very well at all. I ask WHY and you say BECAUSE.
That’s lame. You have your reasons, but now it’s YOU that’s dodging. Is this a righteous dodge, the kind Jesus was an expert at and that the Bible tells us we should do, or are you just hiding your real motive? Or is it just an idle curiosity?
What about my question of what are you going to do with after you’ve got it? You didn’t even attempt to answer that one.
You see, when this issue of dodging dumb questions arose long ago here I pointed out among other things, that EVERYONE dodges questions; it’s just a matter of degree and justification.
How much and how well and how quickly a questions are dodged is the degree part.
Justification relates to is the answer anyone’s business?
or will the answer be used for the wrong purposes,
or whether answering the question will help or hinder learning.
A good teacher will dodge a question
if he knows a student will learn more
by seeking the answer on his own
or by thinking it through from what he already knows.
So, Tom, how does it feel to be a dodger like me?
You just dodged a few of my questions.
I have another question.
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Mike
Goey,
Like Tom you are revealing your hand more, so I can know whether or not spending much time on you is a worthwhile thing to do.
You wrote: “Partial knowledge of your "position" is quite enough to reject it.â€
You didn’t have to confirm that, but thanks for making it easier for me. I could easily tell you were only skimming my posts the way you crying about me not responding to you, even though I had, it was just buried in a post mass addressed to several people. It seems your desire to trip me up might be a little stronger that Tom’s, because you probably did search for posts that said “Goey,†at the top before you moaned to me that I had ignored you.
***
You wrote: “It's kinda like trying to get a patent on a perpetual motion device. The US Patent Office will not consider a patent on any device that claims perpetual motion. Just the claim of perpetual motion is sufficient to reject the patent application, regardless of any other redeeming features of the device. Once they see "perpetual motion" or "free energy" in the application, it is rejected. They do not even look a the rest of the claims or the specifics. There is no need to.â€
I disagree that it’s “kinda like†that really. It just looks like that to your simpleton sight.
Physics is a very exact science because it only deals with very simple concise ideas. In doing so, the concept of energy was very well understood over 100 years ago. The idea of a perpetual motion machine is very simple to prove false from the beginning. NOT SO with the very complex arena of human affairs on earth and the two Gods that are warring over it.
God’s truth is simple, but the error that has saturated His creation is very complex.
Your hunch that I’m wrong about God re-issuing His Word to us in PFAL has nothing even closely resembling a proof behind it.
That He can’t or didn’t really do it is no where near proved anywhere on earth.
The proof of the impossibility of perpetual motion is simple and totally accomplished.
The proof that God didn’t reissue His Word in PFAL totally non-existent.
You are reasoning by analogy, sir!
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WordWolf
Mike,
if I actually had a "raging desire" to shut you up, I'd give you
my BEST effort, and not my second-best, as I specified once.
At least you're giving me a lesser insult of saying I read a
little closer, which is not what you used to say.
(This contrasts me with the other people you claim don't read
you correctly.)
Will you ever learn that all these circumlocuitous refusals to
speak plainly make it look as if you don't have a good answer
to anything, ever? Most of the time, my answers are either
brief, or detailed, but clear and precise (not jargon, but
plain answers.)
Actually, when I honestly asked something, and you asked why I
want to know, and I said, honestly, so I could consider it,
you STILL dodged. So, this non-linear approach really seems
ingrained. You know, eventually, even your staunchest
supporters (if and when you get them) will eventually get tired
of NEVER getting a straight answer.
Tom, your patience is admirable. I certainly don't have it.
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WordWolf
Goey,
are you going to explain how "burden of proof" works to our
erstwhile scientist, or shall I?
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Tom Strange
Well Mikey, you could take a poll to see if anyone else thinks I dodged your questions.
Let me see if I understand you Mikey...
You ask me "why do I ask?"
I tell you "it's a very simple answer. I just want to know if that's what you believe. That's all."
You ask me "what are you going to do with it?"
I tell you "No hidden agenda, no tricks, no search for new material... where our "conversations" go in the future, I don't know... but as of this moment, and through these posts where I've posed the question, I just simply want to know your answer..."
I'm pretty sure the rest of your post was filled with statements of assumption and accusations. Those were the only two questions you asked.
Now, do you think you can answer my simple, straightforward question without resorting to name calling and accusations? Or will you simply "address" it again?
What are you afraid of? If it's what you believe, it's what you believe. Are you a man of your convictions?
I simply want to know the answer. "yes" or "no"
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
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Golfie
Mike quote:
Have you noticed the similarities between Jesus’ last words, Paul’s last words, Peter’s last words, and Dr’s last words?
Yes to Jesus, Paul and Peter, but no to VPW. VP cannot be compared with or even named in the same sentence with Jesus, Paul, or Peter.
A long time ago I got a magazine from a guy named Armstrong. He asked, "When did Jesus get born again?" His answer was, "When God raised Him from the dead." That made sense to me. Romans 1:4 says so. I do not see any reason to argue about it.
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dmiller
"CIRCUMLOCUITOUS"??
Getting out my Funk and Wagnall's right now!
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
Never thought I would hear something new from a Mike thread.
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Tom Strange
Mike... are you a man of your convictions? I only want "yes" or "no"... I didn't ask you why... I wouldn't think it would take so long to answer a simple question... I'll have to read your answer in the morning... I'm going to sleep...
...what are you afraid of?
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
[This message was edited by Tom Strange on March 09, 2004 at 1:08.]
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Mike
Egads! I was working on a response to shaz and now all these additional posts! Don't you people ever sleep? I could understand it if you were all on the West Coast.
Ok, I'll post to shaz and they start again on you others.
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Mike
shazdancer,
You wrote: “Before I comment, let me say that I have not a shred of "residual trinitarianism," as you call it. I left the organized church when I was 10 years old, having never received any schooling in the Trinity. I had no big problem accepting Jesus Christ as not being God, although I have entertained discussions over the years as to the veracity of my view.â€
You were in an organized church for YEARS, and a corrupt one at that, the First Church of TVT. There was lots of residual trinitarianism in TWI, where God-like properties are thought to be present in Jesus Christ. The idea of Jesus’ omniscience was rampant in the TVT. The idea of Jesus being excepted or having a waiver from the need to be born again was there too, as well as in some posts on this page. Plus you grew up in Western civilization, where it is saturated with full-on trinitarianism, as well as the more subtle traces like I just mentioned.
I don’t buy your immunity to residual trinitarianism at all, but I’d love to be proved wrong. You simple claim doesn’t do it for me.
***
You wrote: “However, your view that Christ will be teaching us out of the PFAL book during he Appearing Administration has no basis in scripture OR in PFAL.â€
How long did you look for it in the scriptures and in PFAL? A few seconds? A minute? All day? Try spending 6 years, and I’ll respect your opinion here a little more.
***
You wrote: “VPW's quote about a "series of events" during that time are exactly the ones he then lists: the appearing for his saints, the events of Revelation, and the appearing with his saints. THAT is a series of events. Anything else is just conjecture.â€
Again, with less than a day’s thought on what I said, I’d say it’s you who are in conjecture.
I know that a process must take place where we receive the perfectly renewed mind. I know Dr taught than minds change slowly. I know God does not posses minds or zap them. He tried to teach the mystery to Peter, but Peter wasn’t big enough then to receive it. Tradition meant too much to him, and even a thrice repeated vision plus an angelic coincidence only had a partial and temporary effect on him.
Let’s look at that page 227 in GMWD again.
The record begins with:
“The great hope of the Christian Church is the return of Christ and our gathering together unto him. There are aspects of Christ’s return which we find most clearly explained by God’s rightly-divided Word. In order to understand the coming of Christ, we must also understand “the mechanics†of his coming. Jesus’ first coming began with his conception and birth and ended with his ascension, over thirty years later. There were many significant phases and events during this time.â€
So there are MANY “significant phases and events†in the mechanics of Christ’s first coming, and this will help us understand his second coming, as the next sentence will say with the use of the word “similar.â€
The record continues:
“In this, the second coming is similar: it will also cover a period of time and encompass several significant phases and events.â€
So SEVERAL “significant phases and events†are associated with his second coming.
Note also that a “period of time†is mentioned. I know you, shaz, are not under this misimpression, but many think that the whole shooting match is a “moment in time.†This should dispel that notion.
The record continues:
“There are four basic events included in the times of the end, when Christ returns. This is their order: (1) Christ’s coming for the Church, the Body of Christ, to gather them together and meet them in the air; (2) the events of the Book of Revelation with Christ’s coming with the Church; (3) the first and second resurrections; and finally, (4) the very end, the final point [telos], when death is destroyed and all things are subdued to God.â€
In event (4) is the destruction of death, as I Corinthians 15 talks about, as well as the “moment in time.†HERE it’s quick and fast, the way we receive our new body.
But what happened to the PHASES?
We just saw “significant phases and events†repeated twice above, but now “phases†are missing. These 4 items are events only. The phases are conspicuously missing. They are in addition to the events, simply not mentioned here, but clearly implied.
AND we have another word to consider. These aren’t just “events†but “BASIC events†that are listed. So there are be some not-so-basic events not mentioned, but implied.
See what happens when you use conjecture to guide your thinking? You didn’t read it carefully. There are lots of things that need to happen, and receiving the perfectly renewed mind is one, and that’s a slow deal.
Jesus Christ is going to have to teach us.
Remember how Dr used to say at the Rock of Ages that it was a dress rehearsal for the Gathering Together? Dr also likened the twig fellowship to the Gathering Together. What happens in a twig and at the Rock? TEACHING. Does that teaching take time? Does everyone learn it all at once in sync? Does everyone learn at a pace related to their desire? Yes, No, Yes.
What's the difference between a dress rehearsal and the real thing?
In the theatre a dress rehearsal is one where it's ALMOST the same as the real show, all the props and costumes are in place, and there are no interruptions or re-takes. In theatre the only difference is in one single area: the audience is not the normal paying customers, but friends, relatives and reviewers.
The one essential difference between the dress rehearsal of our Gathering, the Rock of Ages, and the real thing is not the supposed astronautics, but the teacher. In the dress rehearsal we got VPW, in the real thing we get the Lord Jesus Christ.
***
You wrote: “I don't know what he knows or doesn't know -- I would think that if he doesn't know something, he asks the guy on his left, GOD!â€
If the seating scene were a 5-senses situation, yes, but it’s not. We are told that it’s spiritual. If we try to reason it out by the senses we can miss it.
From the revelation we have, Jesus Christ is one of the flock. He’s one of us, not an exceptional dude like John the Baptist who had spirit at birth. Jesus could have just as easily, according to your reasoning, asked God for spirit long before he was thirty years old, but he didn’t and God didn’t tell him to.
Jesus had to struggle through all that we struggle through. He had to read the scriptures when he was young, just like us. He has to be born again just like us, still, even after Pentecost. He still has to learn about the next administration just like us, from the written Word first, and then he can get specifics by revelation when and if necessary. Remeber, he’s still a man, just like us.
***
You wrote: “I also recall that the Bible AND PFAL both taught us that the new birth was a spiritual birth...â€
The whole point of Dr’s last teaching was to get us who knew a lot to come back to PFAL and master the texts, not simply “recall†them.
As I said well above, earlier today, our whole point of view on the first birth and the second birth is at a kindergarten level unless we closely scrutinize the texts.
Dr made a big deal out of viewpoints: God’s versus man’s, the spiritual viewpoint versus the natural. I made a bid deal out of it too with two big threads “The Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching of VPW†and it’s sequel “The Spiritually Divine over the Naturally Factual.â€
I posted that our kindergarten natural point of view doesn’t jive with God’s view on what is the spiritual new birth and what is the natural birth.
In your “recall†you are working the natural point of view where receiving pneuma hagion is the ultimate end all. But from God’s point of view this is only the first birth. The second is when we get Christ formed in our soul.
This is very new stuff to you. You’ve only heard it for one day. I spent 6 years going over these things. Please think about it a long while with your books open. There is something very big here. This Christ Formed material is very obscure, even though Dr taught it at least three times. Hardly any grads have ever pondered it.
***
You wrote: “Frankly, Mike, your lengthy and superfluous posts have led me to believe that YOU do not have a coherent story to tell. Your quote above sounds like YOU. Then you add in that both VPW and Jesus Chris taught you. So PFAL is only a jumping off point for what you want to tell people? You want to impart the personal revelations that Christ gave you?â€
No. I want people to have personal revelations of Jesus Christ themselves. There’s no way to recognize Jesus Christ physically. We must rise to his level and see him spiritually. The KJV won’t do that. Researching the critical Greeks wont do that. God provided a way for us to rise and see Christ and that’s by mastering His written Word as He gave it in PFAL.
***
I had mentioned that splinter groups leaders were like politicians and stingy with conversation with me, to which you wrote: “Methinks they cut you short, because they didn't want to go around and around with you on the very doctrines you have been trying to espouse on GSpot.â€
You got your timing wrong. The splinter stingies were before 1998 when I came into a new set of things to learn. I was talking about asking leaders what was going on in 1987 and ’88 and ’89 and ’90. I tried to ask details concerning THEIR message and they shined me on. With one leader I counted either 6 or 10 (I forget) completel different dodging techniques before I got into an outright confrontation with him on his stinginess. These were not righteous dodges; he was hiding his ignorance and sloppiness and had great disdain for me, a lowly non-Corps. In those days their modus operundi was “Follow us and don’t ask questions.†I’m talking TWI, CES, and GRR.
***
You wrote: “Okay, I'll bite. How do you tithe to Christ himself? Do you throw it up in the air, and what he catches he keeps??â€
No, it’s obey the man of God and master the PFAL books so he can be seen.
***
You wrote: “..the sort of thing you say you hate in others, you do yourself.â€
I hate to see anger and jeering for no reason other than something new is being said. I don’t enter other people’s threads and jeer at them or get angry at what they are doing that thread. I almost did this on the Brady thread, but not quite. That was an exception.
When others poke at me I can poke back.
Jesus Christ had anger when he saw others doing wrong or trying to obstruct his mission. I reserve the right to get in someone’s face twice the strength they come at me with. I don’t always exercise that right, but be warned, not just you shaz but everyone, I don’t have to take anyone’s $hit. I’m know where the line is, and once in a while I may slip up and cross it. When I do, I usually recognize it and retreat.
I will fight back when people try to obstruct me.
Nor will I submit to you, shaz, as my judge in handling matters with others.
If you want to be a judge, why are you leaving undone all the injustices perpetrated on me. A small few other posters here, NOT IN AGREEMENT WITH MY POSTS, have spoken up against the outlandish treatment afforded me. You, shaz, have disqualified yourself from even being a counselor of mine as to my line crossings by your silence on the many more line crossings of others against me.
If Ginger Tea or Abigail say something to me on this subject I listen, but you shaz, might as well save your cyber ink for something I will listen to.
***
You wrote: "For me, Mike, I care little about what the next administration is going to be like. It is my hope that there will be one, on the order of that predicted in the Bible. Meantime..."
Meanwhile? It’s HERE NOW! We are at the end of time. This life is over. The reason God’s 1942 promise gave rise to the PFAL writings was to give rise to US. Only a careful mastery of the texts will reveal this. Obey and see.
***
"Charity never faileth, but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail, whether there be tongues, they shall cease...but when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away...then I shall know even as also I am known...."
Amen to love. Why do you think I endure the crap here? I care about my family.
[This message was edited by Mike on March 09, 2004 at 2:05.]
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Mike
Tom Strange,
You wrote: “Well Mikey, you could take a poll to see if anyone else thinks I dodged your questions.â€
I operate by principle not polls. If majority opinion meant anything to me I’d be long gone.
***
You wrote: “I tell you "it's a very simple answer. I just want to know if that's what you believe. That's all."â€
That answer is a tautology. It’s not an answer just a statement of the obvious. I already knew you “just want to know if that's what I believe†other wise you wouldn’t have asked it. If I take your “just want†and “That’s all†as the total answer then it looks like idle curiosity. But if it’s idle curiosity, then why ask it so often? Something more than idle curiosity looks like it’s driving your desire. What is that something else is another way to phrase my original question that you so far have dodged. Unless you’re just really into idle curiosity. But if that’s the case, why should I bother with such an idle thinker?
***
To my question of "what are you going to do with it?" you answer:
"No hidden agenda, no tricks, no search for new material...â€
This is not an answer of why, but why not. Still no answer of why.
This does slightly eliminate the range of possible “whys†but not much.
You went on with your answer: “where our "conversations" go in the future, I don't know...â€
Another “almost answer†but then you cast doubt on it with “I don’t know...â€
You went on with “...but as of this moment, and through these posts where I've posed the question, I just simply want to know your answer..."
This is just a repetition of the above idle question semi-answer.
Tom welcome to the dodgers club. Now all you got to do is get righteous about it.
***
Now, do you think you can answer my simple, straightforward question without resorting to name calling and accusations? Or will you simply "address" it again?
Not so much fun getting called names and accused is it?
***
You wrote: “What are you afraid of? If it's what you believe, it's what you believe. Are you a man of your convictions?â€
If I posted it before, was I afraid then? Was I afraid to challenge you to search out my posting of it?
***
Here is the next question I want you to answer. Try not to dodge.
If the PFAL texts are REALLY God-breathed, would you be interested in it?
Here’s a variation on the same question:
If the PFAL texts are REALLY God-breathed, would Jesus Christ want you to interested in it?
Another:
If the PFAL texts are REALLY God-breathed, would Jesus Christ want to help you really, truly, spiritually understand it?
Another:
If the PFAL texts are REALLY God-breathed, would Jesus Christ take action to help you understand it?
Another:
If the PFAL texts are REALLY God-breathed, would that action Jesus Christ takes to help you understand it be in the form of possessing your mind and re-wiring it to understand?
Do you see where I am going with this?
I am SO tired of people like you (you are not alone) merely looking at the form of my words and not the content.
If you had been thinking through, FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, the things I post, then the answer to your question should be totally obvious.
The fact that you ask this question reveals much more to me than you simply missing my posts where I say these exact same things.
The fact that you ask this question reveals to me than you simply don’t think about what I’m saying any more than what you need for more fodder for your confusion machine.
Your question proves to me that you haven’t heard a single thing I’ve said about how I REALLY believe that PFAL was given by revelation.
I have another question:
If you said something about 2000 times and had proof that the most important and often repeated thing was NOT pondered in any significant way by someone, would you want to pay much attention to a dumb question with an obvious answer from such a someone?
Let me say this:
That the most important and often repeated thing I’ve said some 2000 times here is that PFAL was given by revelation to Dr, not always in the divine dictation way, but in a SOMETIMES roundabout way like through Kenyon and so on, but also in a very direct way of general guidance through senses research.
Now having that, that I do definitely and totally believe PFAL is God-breathed, and given the exercises above, do you still have to ask the question of me?
After all this, do you still want me to answer you ?
Is there ANY doubt in your mind that the answer is YES I believe that?
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Oakspear
Mike:
Some posters have come lately to the "Mike Wars" and haven't seen your opinions/beliefs posted previously.
A question about your beliefs might be a desire to be sure that your sincere, serious statement is not mistaken for sarcasm or humor, or that those of us who disagree with you haven't misrepresented you.
Pour a little ice water on your head, man.
Ya' know...cool off
It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight
Oakspear
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Mike
Oaky,
Maybe I should add you to that list with Abigail and Ginger.
I am ....ed.
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Mike
Oaky,
The water helped. And the rug will dry out.
Thanks for the advice.
:)-->
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Goey
Wordwolf Posted:
Ok. I'll do it, but as you know Mike operates by his own rules which he makes up as he goes. So it is doubtful that it will make any impact on Mike.
Mike posted:
My analogy was simply descriptive and was offered to show by example why reading your every word is not necessary to see the folly of your position(s).However, you are reasoning by the logical fallacy of Burden of Proof.
The Burden of Proof rests upon the one making the initial claim or statement - which would be you, since you are the one who has declared PFAL to be the God-breathed reissuance of His written Word. The fallacy is to attempt shift the burden of proof against that statement to the other side.
A good definition is: "Burden of proof is a fallacy where a claimant asserts that he does not have to prove his claim, but that his opponent has to disprove it."
(http://seercom.com/bcs/resources/criticalt...irf.burden.html)
Example:
"I believe that Bigfoot exists".
"That's absurd. Where is your proof?
"The truth needs no proof, I am just here to declare it. Where is your proof that that he doesn't exist ? No one on earth can prove that he doesn't exist ..."
-------------------------------
The fallacy of burden of proof is usually used when someone has a very weak position with little or no facts or evidence with which to support it. Short of relevant facts and evidence, they will shift the burden of proof to their opponent(s), errantly thinking that it somehow supports their position. At best it is a dodge.
Mike, the burden of proof is on you and has been on you since you have made you assertations. You can deny this all you want, but it still remains.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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Raf
IF PFAL is God-breathed, THEN PFAL is correct about the characteristics of written work that is God-breathed.
IF PFAL is correct about the characteristics of written work that is God-breathed, THEN written work that is God-breathed will contain no errors or contradictions.
IF PFAL is God-breathed, THEN PFAL will contain no errors or contradictions.
PFAL contains errors and contradictions.
One example of a blatant error: "There was no pronounceable name for the true God, in contrast to pagan gods who were always called by name." (from Jesus Christ is Not God). That statement is plain wrong. Period. The true God was called by name, often. Out loud. Which means it was pronounceable. Wierwille was wrong.
Contradiction: "All without distinction means all within a certain category." (PFAL)
"All WITH distinction means all within a certain category." (Jesus Christ is Not God).
SINCE PFAL contains both an error and a contradiction (neither of which is a typo), THEN PFAL is not God-breathed.
Dodge, distract, witness if you can but never admit an error or a contradiction is an error or a contradiction.
xxxxxx
After I posted this, I've been reading some of the items you posted this weekend, Mike. Umm, they're stupid. I mean flat out stupid. Not worthy of the time or effort you're putting into them.
How did Jesus get born again? When did he get faith since it wasn't available until after Pentecost (news flash: faith was available before Pentecost. Difficult verses in light of the clear, remember?) Jesus teaching out of a PFAL book?
This is madness, Mike. Not worthy of debate. Sheer and utter stupidity.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on March 09, 2004 at 11:56.]
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shazdancer
Mike,
You said, "See what happens when you use conjecture to guide your thinking? You didn’t read it carefully. There are lots of things that need to happen, and receiving the perfectly renewed mind is one, and that’s a slow deal." Says you, based on conjecture. Who says a perfectly renewed mind is a requirement? You do. Who says that "phases" are not implied in the list of end time events given by VP? You do. Who says that Jesus will use a PFAL book to teach from at the gathering together? You do. I simply don't see the same things you took 6 years to wrench out of that passage of PFAL, and it obviously isn't in the Bible. I also don't see proof of Sun Myung Moon being the Second Coming based on a few passages of scripture, but his followers do, based on their many years of wrenching scripture. So sorry, but your 6-year resumé doesn't impress me. Your logic is just flawed, based on conjecture and personal revelation.
The scriptures state that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God. Obviously a figure of speech indicating a closeness and a preferred relationship. My Bible says (and VPW quotes) that Jesus always did his Father's will. Is that a perfectly renewed mind? If Jesus needs to know anything, can't he ask God?
You said, "Remember how Dr used to say at the Rock of Ages that it was a dress rehearsal for the Gathering Together?" Yes, I do. He said it was because of the love that was shared, not the teachings. We also had refreshments, entertainment, the book store, and Bless Patrol, but I don't think you mean to imply that those will be a part of the Appearing Administration also!
You also said...
Uh, didn't God give him a name, didn't he earn a name, etc. etc.? And who says he "has to be" born again? You do -- I don't see it in scripture, nor in PFAL. There are a couple of areas in which he is obviously NOT like us, and I don't have to have "residual trinitarianism" or TVT brainwashing OR cultural inundation to see it. Jesus was born divinely -- I wasn't. Jesus always did the Father's will. I don't. Jesus was raised bodily, and resurrected. I wasn't, or at least, not yet. Jesus sits at God's right hand -- I do through him, he doesn't through me.You said...
Sorry, don't have the books in front of me any more, nor do I want to. Yet for all that, my "recall" hasn't been too shabby, by your own admission.You said...
Nope, I never said that receiving pneuma hagion was the ultimate end all. Yet you were the one who said that Jesus needed to get born again à la Pentecost.Your statement that tithing today is studying PFAL is just absurd.
You also said...
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Tom Strange
Well Mikalito...
Why are you ....ed? Why do you think I'm poking at you? If I was poking at you I'd tell you, I've got nothing to hide. There's no hidden agenda.
It's like Oak said above, I just wanted to be sure that I wasn't reading something into your posts that wasn't really there.
So... you go on a tirade... dreaming up all sorts of devious scenarios... you attempt to make me look one way or another by trying to belittle me...
Too bad you didn't succeed in doing anything but showing people just how 'Christian' you are... again.
You post a zillion lines filled with innuendo, assumption and, MOST OF ALL PARANOIA, to answer a simple yes or no question.
Then after you've 'vented' and 'put me in my place' you type:
Could've saved yourself a lot of typing and not gotten so worked up about it.When I'm poking at you, you'll know it.
There won't be any doubt in your mind.
But when you react this way to a simple question...
why on earth would I, or anyone, need to poke?
Why be so defensive?
Why be so condescending?
Why be so mean to people?
Do you really think that will "get your message across"?
Do you think that's how God wants his message delivered?
See, I haven't commented on or about your answer at all, just the manner in which you answered.
I don't think God likes it when you to behave like that. He doesn't approve of that kind of behavior.
It's hard to make that change, When life and love turns strange. And old.
To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of". When will I see you again?
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Mike
Tom Strange,
I’ve calmed down. My rage was not MERELY against you but against the pattern you were the latest participant in, and that’s not paying attention to the heart or the details of my posts, but the outward form only, and for purposes that thwart understanding, even in other readers, in what I post. I wanted to let you, but even more to let others know that I’m hip to this diversion and that it won’t stop me.
***
You wrote: “Why are you ....ed?â€
I WAS ....ed because I see my family drowning and the life guards are dragging people farther out to sea.
***
You wrote: “It's like Oak said above, I just wanted to be sure that I wasn't reading something into your posts that wasn't really there.â€
What Oak said struck me deep because I was forgetting that there are always VERY new people to come late into this discussion. I don’t think you are one of them, though. If you really wanted to know what I said, why didn’t you see it where I answered much the same question before, and in amazement that people hadn’t seen the obvious connection that IFFF the texts we have been given are God-breathed, then SURELY Jesus Christ would be into them bigtime.
That you, and the questioners/mockers before you with that same question, didn’t see this obvious connection and had to question mo on it, told me that you weren’t thinking through, even for the slightest duration, my position.
Part of an intelligent discussion is being able to TEMPORARILY put yourself into the shoes of your opponent and thinking like he thinks, assuming what he assumes, and cranking through the logic FROM HIS point of view. This is the process I dragged you through in my last post to you last night.
Do you see now? Do you see now how it’s totally obvious that IF my assumption of PFAL being of God is set in cement, then it’s a very small step to see that Jesus Christ will be totally involved with it too?
Maybe you couldn’t buy that I was serious about PFAL being God-breathed in the first place, but that too implies that you weren’t paying any attention to all my posting for a year. I just don’t have time for gadflies who only want to poke fun or derision at the outward form of my posts.
This ability to TEMPORARILY put yourself into the shoes of your opponent and think like he thinks is crucial to any deep discussion, but it does require work. It also requires fearlessness.
I’ve seen MANY trinitarians, the full-on kind, who would sit down with me and our Bibles open and the more verses I put on the table for thought, the more they withdrew. They were afraid to consider, even for a moment, even for the rhetoric richness, even for a second they were afraid to think things through from my point of view.
I OFTEN have seen this same face of fear come on grads when I suggest that God really did re-issue His Word in PFAL, because like trinitarians, there are certain cherished traditions grads embrace, and challenging them is terrifying. I can show them that we were taught in RHST’s “Introduction to the Appendixes,†and in Jeramiah 36, and in the grand re-issue from the stars to stone and parchment, that God can and has done this before, but when fear grips a man, rational thought is impossible.
So, Tom, I figured you were tough enough to serve temporarily as an example for how others CAN be treated it they too try to interrupt me with poorly thought through distractions.
I did the same thing with E.W. Bullinger not long ago when he privately e-mailed me last year with an elaborate scheme to tug me off my position, and when it didn’t work he recently splashed it in public as if I had done something bad to him. When I rubbed his shiney little nose into his own $hit he protested that it would send a chilling effect to others, and he was right! That’s what I wanted to do, make him an example, that if you mess with me there MAY be consequences. I do have mercy and grace also, because I see My Daddy and my big Brother operate that was as well.
[This message was edited by Mike on March 09, 2004 at 14:09.]
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