You wrote: “If we (dissenters) do not accept your basic proposition regarding PFAL being the inerrant/inherent "Word of God" then we therfore are considered unworthy or unlearned in it's mastery...â€
This is not my position. You are misunderstanding some subtle points.
I have posted many times now that I have a verse that will show how attitude is MOST important in working AEs and in mastering PFAL the way we need to. YET, no one has expressed the slightest desire to hear the verse.
Without the attitude of meekness toward the material, many things will slip by unattended to.
Here’s one such subtle point: It’s not the unworthiness of the researcher that I emphasize, it’s the unworthiness of the TECHNIQUE non-meek researchers use that is deficient.
Heck, I can hang out with people who aren’t meek to PFAL and like them. I did so last night with three GreaseSpot posters from this board. We had pizza and beer by the beach and had a WONDERFUL time. It was difficult to leave their presence. I was privileged to be in their company.
They understand that I consider them PLENTY worthy to hang out with and enjoy. They know it’s their techniques for examining the details of PFAL that I distance myself from. Why can’t you see it this way too?
***
You wrote: “There are many here who are your equal in debating these issues (and I am not one of them)...it is you who use distraction, by dismissing their arguments out of hand because of their insistance on scrutinizing the writings of Victor Paul Wierwille.â€
I’m not here to debate, but to simply deliver the message. I also engage in a LIMITED amount of discussion about what I post, and I try to include logic and reason in those discussions. But as for a full blown logical proof, that can only be transmitted from the Author of the books to the mastering reader of the books.
It’s only when people insist on such a full blown proof, or that I submit to THEIR full blown dis-proof that I will employ methods that are Biblical (dodge, distract, etc) but that really rile those who insist I engage using their ground rules. Sorry it’s MY rules as I received from God that I employ here regarding my message, not yours or anyone else’s.
You and Rafael and an army here can cry, and stamp your feet, and call me an idolater all you want. You are just painting yourselves into a corner that will be very shameful when you finally do see Jesus Christ teaching out of a orange PFAL book. I have already seen him this way, so I know you will too.
Mike it is a good thing your a single lonely man with plenty of time for the internet posting a couple of kids might throw your butt off the throne of abudance.
till then brag all you want . I think you need a wife and a family but God truly blesed your life with that absence? Im sorry if that feels personal but your the one bragging.
Im not one to put someones failing in their face but stop the illusion you said your wife left you hmmm where was the heavy revelation to fix that MESS? hmmm? didnt happen because it was an attack from the adversary oh I know I know we all know the routine of how powerful God is in your life till your attacked and lose.
What is a kings life without an heir to the throne or a plenty of love love from the Queen?
Mike -- I'm sorry, but I gotta say it, The "lost teachings" are no different then the stuff I find in my fridge, that I have forgotten about for 2 or 3 months.
I "master" that which is rotten, and stinking in my fridge, by throwing it out in the trash. Sorry I can't give the "lost teaching" a better comparision, but that is how it is with me, and my house.
The hymn you quoted was great, and you also said:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Outside of this ministry I've seen very few answers. If we knew where there were more, we'd go get them! That's right."
It is OUTSIDE of this ministry that we find the answers, and the answers are found in THE BIBLE, not the books by vpw. As Vickles said, "it sounds like a lot of controlling to me", concerning vpw and his books.
I've got to agree with her, and I will go back to the "lost food" in the fridge analogy as a closing statement.
Mike, no it is not tvt. How things are written and how vpw carried them out are how you get the control. You don't go find out what the needs are. You live and love God and His people and when there are needs from the believer they will have love, trust, and respect and they will come to you. Its a matter of their will not yours as a leader to go find everything. This is where it is wrong.
If I need prayer or help I will ask for it. I don't want anyone coming to me as 'spiritual' and telling me what I need.
About a child's believing. Are you telling me that they have to be an adult to have the law of believing? At what age does that start? So we teach our children your principles but tell them oh but since your a kid it doesn't start until your an adult? And where in your bible does it say that? Does that mean that Jesus wasn't able to walk on your Word until he was considered an adult? Which during that time would have been when he was 30 years old?
In the class vpw himself talks about believing equal receiving and uses the example of red drapes. So in his own usages of the five senses of beleiving equals receiving you are saying this is false. So what you are doing is contridicting what you yourself believe.
So about the spirits thing. Ok so your not saying we are possessed persay but your saying that we have a spirit of oppression or spirits hanging around us to make us not listen to you. What your saying is some kind of spirit is doing this to us. I really believed that crap for many years, I don't need to believe it anymore. As I said before I sure wouldn't want to live in your shoes. Always trying to achieve something in your life as in your mastering and never getting there because it is unattainable.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
You wrote: “If we (dissenters) do not accept your basic proposition regarding PFAL being the inerrant/inherent "Word of God" then we therfore are considered unworthy or unlearned in it's mastery...â€
This is not my position. You are misunderstanding some subtle points.
I have posted many times now that I have a verse that will show how attitude is MOST important in working AEs and in mastering PFAL the way we need to. YET, no one has expressed the slightest desire to hear the verse.
Without the attitude of meekness toward the material, many things will slip by unattended to.
Here’s one such subtle point: It’s not the unworthiness of the researcher that I emphasize, it’s the unworthiness of the TECHNIQUE non-meek researchers use that is deficient.
Heck, I can hang out with people who aren’t meek to PFAL and like them. I did so last night with three GreaseSpot posters from this board. We had pizza and beer by the beach and had a WONDERFUL time. It was difficult to leave their presence. I was privileged to be in their company.
They understand that I consider them PLENTY worthy to hang out with and enjoy. They know it’s their techniques for examining the details of PFAL that I distance myself from. Why can’t you see it this way too?
Mike Mike Mike~In the past many here approached VPW's writings with same meekness as you. If we did not fully understand or comprehend we followed his instructions and held it in abeyence until could comprehend. Problem was he as our "teacher" did not allow his propositions to be questioned by us. Despite of the fact that he stated we could if through diligent research with meekness proved otherwise. He said it, but did not mean it. He sacked researchers on his own research staff that challenged any tenet of PFAL. It was he who was not meek. His insecurties did not allow him to operate in a new dynamic church.
***
You wrote: “There are many here who are your equal in debating these issues (and I am not one of them)...it is you who use distraction, by dismissing their arguments out of hand because of their insistance on scrutinizing the writings of Victor Paul Wierwille.â€
I’m not here to debate, but to simply deliver the message. I also engage in a LIMITED amount of discussion about what I post, and I try to include logic and reason in those discussions. But as for a full blown logical proof, that can only be transmitted from the Author of the books to the mastering reader of the books.
It’s only when people insist on such a full blown proof, or that I submit to THEIR full blown dis-proof that I will employ methods that are Biblical (dodge, distract, etc) but that really rile those who insist I engage using their ground rules. Sorry it’s MY rules as I received from God that I employ here regarding my message, not yours or anyone else’s.
It is you sir who brought up rules of debate, rhetoric and logic. Your even referenced other sources now only to say you are playing by a different set of rules (namely yours/save the bs on receiving them from God). You mean all I have to do is to but God's signiture on any ridiculous thing I say, thus declaring it unchallengable.
You and Rafael and an army here can cry, and stamp your feet, and call me an idolater all you want. You are just painting yourselves into a corner that will be very shameful when you finally do see Jesus Christ teaching out of a orange PFAL book. I have already seen him this way, so I know you will too.
This is even more preposterous Mike. I do not cry or stamp my feet nor have I called you an idolater. I do think it is blasphemous to say Jesus Christ will be teaching out of the orange PFAL book. My guess is that even VPW himself would agree. After the return of Christ there will be no need to teach out of a book containing limited knowledge that will be obsolete compared to what will be available to us then. I haven't painted myself into a corner, that would be you in the corner Mike.
You attempted to discuss "abundance" as meaning spiritual abundance. But that is not all of what VPW taught. He also taught that material abundance was part of the package. I agree with Socks' post on the "Masters of the Word" thread on what was taught in the beginning of PFAL.
Wierwille taught that God was gonna meet your need (not greed) when you believe, right down to the itty-bitty details (red drapes). It was a law, worked for saint and sinner, mathematical exactness, yada yada. Then he goes on to teach that our greatest need is a spiritual one, that we have no holy spirit, and are incomplete, cut off from God, no eternal life. But that DOESN'T negate that he teaches material abundance. One of the Corps principles (the old ones that VP espoused and we were to memorize) was "Practice believing to bring material abundance to you and the ministry."
So now you want to say that you REALLY meant that you have you are free from fear, unlike kings? Sorry Mike, I also work for many very wealthy people who are doing just fine in the freedom-from-fear department. I would be quite content to have their money and show how I can handle it! ;)-->
Do some of those rich people have troubles in their lives? Yes, as do we all, saint and sinner alike.
So now you have been reading and studying PFAL as if it was Holy Writ for at least six years. One would think you would have something to show for it -- after all, it didn't take Paul six years to get from being a Christian-killer to doing some pretty mighty works. Picked any winning horses lately? ;)--> (Ya gotta love that analogy of VPW's -- it goes so against the grain of everything he taught about when revelation is given.)
I haven't exhausted any supply of debate against your points, Mike. I just think that when a blind man says, "Walk in here, you will get perfect 20/20 vision," I gotta question that statement, since the blind man hasn't received the gift himself. Life is short, I'm not going to waste it chasing a carrot on a stick.
Why do I post on your threads? Simple -- I hate rotten carrots, and I'd hate to think that someone else would go after one without first being warned that the carrot is rancid, and on a stick.
Really for me the idea that God is alive for our benefit and surplus is just wrong.
the Way taught that "God wanted a family" well like so many spoiled brats in our world that turned into the idea that give me or you do not really care give give give memememem ME. or Im going to have a tantrum and blame my brother and sister for my errors and problems in life!
God wants obedience , worship, fear and a great many other huge details the way forgot to metion in the road to the do not worry be happy with what you have or do not (it is all your weakiness) life of a believer.
But the idea sold well, a free ride in life by believing a invisable source of endless what ever we want in life looks good for a sale. We even had songs about Gods spoiled KIDS remember?
Problem is the real DEAL and paper work contract that is written by HOLY scriptures on how to gain abundance and Godly life has a TON of small print involved that was never ever metioned in twi.
quote:Besides you have hardly had an opportunity to measure my character.
No need to Mike, as you have already 'measured' it for us, all by pert near everything you say and do on this board. And, to paraphrase from the Bible, 'it has been found wanting'.
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
The ideas and beliefs that you have mike is all about me. Me and what am I going to get from God. I believe positively and I have MY needs and wants parallel. I do it all. It is because of MY believing that anything comes to pass because I did it. Your not allowing God into your life. Its like a spoiled child demanding of God.
God wants to have a relationship with us. He wants us to be his child and friend. Do we demand of our parents and friends? Oh I see something and we go and demand it because we believe its our right? No. It doesn't sound like a good relationship to me.
By us demanding and doing what we feel is right trying to attain 'all 9 all the time' we end up missing the whole picture of what God and ourselves are all about. By mastering what vpw wrote misses the whole boat on being in a family of believers and experiencing the love that we all have to offer for each other.
You or I are not all powerful than another believer. Because you believe what you believe does not mean that you are The one that has all the answers. In a family we all have something to contribute. We all can learn from each other. We don't have to have ourselves all puffed up in our thinking.
God wants us to meek in our lives. How are we going to learn anything if we are not meek? We can learn from God and His family not only by studying but by doing and being with His family. By you not believing that anyone has anything to offer or contribute to this is by yourself making a statement that we can only learn from you because you are mastering PFAL.
You spend all these hours putting together the works of vpw. What about the works of Jesus Christ? I would rather learn of His works than someone like vpw. That is what is missing from all of this.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
quote:You and Rafael and an army here can cry, and stamp your feet, and call me an idolater all you want. You are just painting yourselves into a corner that will be very shameful when you finally do see Jesus Christ teaching out of a orange PFAL book. I have already seen him this way, so I know you will too.
Mike,
No one's crying. No one's stomping their feet. You're an idolater. I feel sorry for you. You're missing out on so much by cluthing to your little orange idol. Jesus will be teaching out of PFAL? You've seen this? Yeah, right. David Berkowitz saw his dog talking to him. Doesn't make it true.
You can cry all you want, insist the earth shook where Wierwille walked, that he told the truth about snowstorms that didn't happen, that he was a paragon of brains (yeah right) and brawn (yeah right). You can insist that there are no errors in the PFAL materials, and dodge, distract and deny when they are pointed out to you in black and white. Doesn't make it true.
You've wasted your life. You're a sad parody of a believer. You've built a house on sinking sand and you're trying to get us to rent a room.
... and no doubt will charge premium $$$ for rent as well.
quote: ... You are just painting yourselves into a corner that will be very shameful when you finally do see Jesus Christ teaching out of a orange PFAL book. I have already seen him this way, so I know you will too.
If this account actually did happen (which I don't believe will happen), I for one wouldn't be shameful. After seeing 'him' teaching out of the PFAL book, I'd turn around, head on back to earth, throwing back a "Ya know, the unbelievers were right after all! ... See ya!!"
:P-->
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
why is it, with all your capacity to analize(not a mis-spelling) data you cannot come to the same conclusion as others, who you deem below your intelligence level?
seared conscience?
spirit of slumber?
your pride?
birds?
if you are soooooo certain that PFAL was the god breathed word then why did you not commit and go all the way,go corps?
put your commitment to the "word" where your mouth is?
i was at one point! until i came to my senses!
mike can you say "jesus christ is my lord and saviour and i believe in my heart that god has raised him from the dead"
can you?
are you a christian mike?
btw, you never did answer my other questions in my post about your "abundant life" your highness.
quite rude.
a weirwille groupie you are, and a weirwille groupie you will remain 'til the end.
pathetic.
too bad you dont know christ mike. he sets captives free.
"he's an ooooold HIPPIE! an' he don' know what to do.
should he let go of the old,should he grab on to the new....."
quote:You are just painting yourselves into a corner that will be very shameful when you finally do see Jesus Christ teaching out of a orange PFAL book. I have already seen him this way, so I know you will too.
Oh, I can see it now, Jesus holding up a PFAL book and saying, "The Word, The Word, and nothing but the Word!".
You wrote: “Mike, no it is not tvt. How things are written and how vpw carried them out are how you get the control.â€
Dr definitely did control the programs and the activities of his paid staff and the volunteers in the programs. This is right and proper. Control was needed. We were wild hippies or near that in the 70’s. In 1982 he relinquished all that control. That is a sign of someone who is not hungry to control people’s lives, only the machinery of the 5-senses corporation. Remember, we who were “controlled†in the way I’ve described all volunteered to work under his guidance, and remember that the vast majority of grads were NOT in this category.
Yes, when Craig and the Corpse Nazis took over after 1982 things got progressively worse and worse.
Now, when I declare that the books are from God, this should be good news, not smacking of even a hint of abusive control, because the control structure has been decimated. Even TWI-x is on their knees still reeling from Craig’s recent decapitation. Even they are far less controlling now, but the book situation is totally missing the control structure.
***
You wrote: “About a child's believing. Are you telling me that they have to be an adult to have the law of believing?â€
No, that’s NOT what I was saying. I meant that if a child (or if a childish adult grad) attempts to operate the law of believing willy nilly based on a mere desire, and not based on a promise of God, it ain’t gonna work! Please go back and read that post of mine and yours to see this.
***
You wrote: “So about the spirits thing. Ok so your not saying we are possessed persay but your saying that we have a spirit of oppression or spirits hanging around us to make us not listen to you. What your saying is some kind of spirit is doing this to us. I really believed that crap for many years, I don't need to believe it anymore.â€
Hey! Jesus Christ himself was oppressed by spirits at times. In the desert he heard a voice that was not from the senses, he had a hallucinatory false vision, and he was even physically abducted to a high place.
If someone is NOT affected by spirits and satan in this way they may very well be of little threat to the adversary. It’s no shame to be hounded by the adversary. It should be expected if you are walking with the True God.
Dr taught us that we are not responsible for thoughts that occur to us, but we are responsible if we “allow them to lodge in our hair.â€
***
You wrote: “As I said before I sure wouldn't want to live in your shoes. Always trying to achieve something in your life as in your mastering and never getting there because it is unattainable.â€
The books are an easy read. They are definitely masterable.
What’s NOT masterable is your KJV, as I pointed out in my fourth post on the first page of my “Masters of the Word – Mastering PFAL.†No scholar in the world has ever mastered the KJV, the critical Greek texts or the ancient fragments.
You wrote: “In the past many here approached VPW's writings with same meekness as you.â€
NO! Some here may have done a lot of study in their first exposure to the books, and I am included in this group. However this group (me included) never approached the books like I do now. I’m talking the same kind of meekness to the PFAL books that we used to do with the KJV and critical greeks. I’m talking about using the same kind of mastery techniques we used on the KJV now to be used on the PFAL writings, including word studies. Many did KJV based word studies back then, but no one did serious PFAL based word studies.
***
You wrote: “If we did not fully understand or comprehend we followed his instructions and held it in abeyence until could comprehend. Problem was he as our "teacher" did not allow his propositions to be questioned by us.â€
BS! I happened to park right next to Dr’s camper at the 1972 Rock and I had three pages of questions I got to ask him over the course of that Rock. He also invited us to write him in the class. I know many people who did. There’s one poster here who told me about a question she wrote to Dr near his death which he answered.
Maybe you didn’t know how to approach him, but he was approachable.
***
You wrote: “He sacked researchers on his own research staff that challenged any tenet of PFAL.â€
Yes, and this used to bother me to no end, until I realized why that department was there. If Craig had listened to Dr’s last advice as President at his installation in 1982, he would have phased out the research department, or radically changed it’s mission. Dr said that night that all the basic research was done, but no one heard it really. I posted the entire transcript of this here.
***
You wrote: “It is you sir who brought up rules of debate, rhetoric and logic. Your even referenced other sources now only to say you are playing by a different set of rules...â€
As for rules of debate, rhetoric and logic, I was very clear in my post what I meant. You read it wrong. Let me point it out again:
“I also engage in a LIMITED amount of discussion about what I post, and I try to include logic and reason in those discussions.â€
This sentence slipped by you, as did many things Dr wrote.
***
You wrote: “This is even more preposterous Mike. I do not cry or stamp my feet nor have I called you an idolater. I do think it is blasphemous to say Jesus Christ will be teaching out of the orange PFAL book.â€
Oh, so I’m not an idolater, just a blasphemer! Do you even read poorly what you write yourself?
Of course, the crying ans stamping of feet was a figure of speech, and appropriate to many here, maybe even you.
***
You wrote: “My guess is that even VPW himself would agree.â€
Your guess is not based on a careful scrutiny of what is written. You are loaded with TVT and very little of the Written Word we were given in the PFAL books. I found 90 places where he asserts that PFAL is the written Word of God.
Of course, most of these are very subtle and would not satisfy most here. There are two overt ones though on pages 32 and 116 of TNDC.
***
You wrote: “After the return of Christ there will be no need to teach out of a book containing limited knowledge that will be obsolete compared to what will be available to us then.â€
You know very little of the details of the Gathering. Yes it is true that AFTER the Gathering is all over we will have no need for physical books, but to GET US UP THERE Jesus Christ teaches us out of the written Word from his Father. It’s the written Word that teaches us how to distinguish the spiritual voice of the Father from the close counterfeit voice of the devil.
There are MANY details of the Gathering that we need to learn, and they are in the books.
You wrote: “You attempted to discuss "abundance" as meaning spiritual abundance. But that is not all of what VPW taught. He also taught that material abundance was part of the package.â€
Yes, I agree to this. I simply stated that we need to adopt God’s definition of abundance and not this world’s definition. The MAIN part of the abundance is spiritual, but material is also included. I’ve posted this in several spots lately. It’s too bad this abundance discussion is taking place on two threads at once.
***
Wierwille taught that God was gonna meet your need (not greed) when you believe, right down to the itty-bitty details (red drapes).â€
YES!
***
You wrote: “Then he goes on to teach that our greatest need is a spiritual one, that we have no holy spirit, and are incomplete, cut off from God, no eternal life.â€
YES!
***
You wrote: “But that DOESN'T negate that he teaches material abundance.â€
YES!
***
You wrote: “So now you want to say that you REALLY meant that you have you are free from fear, unlike kings?â€
Here I’d substitute “ALSO†for your use of “REALLY.â€
***
You wrote: “Sorry Mike, I also work for many very wealthy people who are doing just fine in the freedom-from-fear department.â€
Very few people are going to admit their fears to us. Only a very few of my 20 year customers have done this with me. I work in people’s homes, where I see their living procedures, their locks, their alarm systems, their watch dogs, their libraries. Some I’ve been working for over 20 years. I see some of their fears even though they put on a face of fearlessness. It also may be that in the area where you are there are less of the stresses that occur in some of the bigger cities. The coastal cities are far more devilish that the interior of the country. Plus, it is commonly reported that when people win the lottery or suddenly acquire great riches, the stresses hurt them greatly, and in many ways unimaginable to us who have a more balanced form of material abundance like I’ve already discussed.
***
You wrote: “So now you have been reading and studying PFAL as if it was Holy Writ for at least six years. One would think you would have something to show for itâ€
I do have. But do you really think my description of my abundance is going to mean anything to anyone here?
Suppose one of my rewards for my study was to have a mansion and many cars and a staff of helpers. Would I want to spend time with a grad who decides to come back to PFAL for such a shallow reason as gaining material over-abundance? I think not. I’m GLAD that I don’t have such false powers of persuasion, because I only want to work closely with those grads who want to come back to PFAL out of a love for God and an thankfulness for what great things they learned in their first exposure. I’m glad that the level of worldly riches I enjoy filters out air-head grads, because I don’t have time to wait for them to mature.
***
You wrote: “...after all, it didn't take Paul six years to get from being a Christian-killer to doing some pretty mighty works.â€
Actually you might want to research this out, but my impression is that Paul spent 7 years in the desert first, checking it all out after the Road to Damascus incident, and then it was an additional 14 years before he really got cooking with the mystery. I could be wrong about this, but I know I don’t feel bad about how slow it may look I’m progressing. I know that in my heart is there is an exciting adventure in learning taking place every day. I don’t think I could handle a faster pace.
***
You wrote: “Picked any winning horses lately? (Ya gotta love that analogy of VPW's -- it goes so against the grain of everything he taught about when revelation is given.)â€
You are forgetting some of the details of the horses. He himself admitted that the horses thing was “against the grain.†He told us that he was simply LEARNING how get revelation then.
Just to refresh your memory, here is a portion of segment 9 of the ’79 AC:
“A great many of these things, regarding the revelation
manifestations, I learned because, I believe, of God's abundant grace.
When I think about that tonight, while I - er this session, while I'm
teaching you, I get chills running up and down my spine by what I'm
saying. 'Cause today, I would never, quote "tempt" end of quote, God
like I did once. I didn't know, nobody'd taught me like I'm teaching
you, I just didn't know! So I was "stupid"! And God, in His infinite
mercy and grace, Gosh He was just so fantastic. Ha-ha!
“I remember the time that, what's that street called, past Marshal
Fields {store} in Chicago? Michigan avenue, I think. Goes past Marshal
Fields in Chicago. I wa- what? Michigan? What ever they said, is
right. O.K.? You know, I was too embarrassed to do it in Van Wert,
{Ohio} 'cause everybody knew me in Van Wert. So I couldn't work in Van
Wert, I was too embarrassed to try it. So, I went some place were
nobody would know me, ya know, just nobody. And I did it at an hour, on
that street where Marshal Fields, in Chicago goes, when they go out for
lunch and there's just thousands of people go by, you know, and nobody
knows me. So, I thought, boy, that's a real way to learn.
“So I, hah, I did that, ha-hah, really somethin'. And I walked down
that street and here were all these people coming out for lunch and I'd
say: "Father, is that one a Christian or not a Christian?" Then God
would show me a Big white heart, and I'd walk by and I'd say "Pardon me,
but are you a Christian?" and they'd say "Yeah", wonderful! I'd say;
"Thank-you", I'd keep going, see? Ha-ha-hah! Then I'd keep on walking,
you know, and I'd say: "Father, how about that one, is that one a
Christian?" and God would show me a big old black rotten heart. And I'd
say to him: "Sir, pardon me, but are you a Christian?" . . . "Hell, no!"
Whew, I'd say "Thank-you, Lord!" Ha-ha-ha! - That's how I learned a lot
of this stuff."
“Today, when I think about it, I get chills running up and down my
spine. But I had nobody to teach me like I'm teaching you, and going to
teach you. Nobody unfolded - there just wasn't any Word that was
unfolded to me along these lines, I did not know! And that's why, I
think, God leaned over backwards, as I told you, to teach me a lot of
these things, so that I can teach it to you, I guess. Ha-hah, yeah.
“This week, while the great runners were running from Rome City to
Athens here, and I think that was significant to run from Rome to Athens
with light. (laughter) They stopped in Van Wert, and I took a lot of
our people to the Van Wert county fair grounds. Mrs. Wierwille and I,
we rode our motor cycles, our motor cycle to Payne, and met 'em there,
then we went on to Van Wert and met 'em there. Then I took a lot of our
people that - all-all of them that weren't running, we went over to the
Van Wert county fair grounds, showed them where we used to have our Van
Wert Gospel Gift Shop and other things.
“Then I showed 'em the old fence up there - it's still there, same
place, where I picked out all the winners that day for every race. And
I don't know a lousy thing about horses, except I know the rear end is
where the tail is and the head is where that elongated rectangular thing
is-that's all I know about race horses. I- you know, I just went to the
Kentucky derby by Mr. Reynolds up at Reynolds Tobacco Company or
Reynolds Aluminum, this year, by His grace and mercy. I don't know
anything about horses. Betting on a horse would be about like, I don't
know what, it's stupid for me, I don't know anything about it. So, I
said; "Hey, Father, which one's gonna win this race?" and He said
"Number seven." so, I'd write down number 7. Second race, who's gonna
win it? He said number 3, so I write down 3.
“Next to me I had a man who knew horses inside and out who was an
official man betting on horses all the time. That afternoon, he never
won one race, I won every one of them. And I didn't bet, but I won
every one of them, by picking them ahead of time. You talk about God's
mercy and grace, you see why I sit with fear and trembling when I even
tell you these things 'cause God just leaned over backwards to teach me
- He knew all the time which dumb horse was gonna win. And He was just
teaching me that He was God and revelation isn't stupid.
“Now I'm not advocating you go out and bet at the Kentucky derby, ya
might flup-yer-dub or something, but He was teaching me and that's the
love and the mercy of God, and the grace of God that, class, I cannot
tell you how thankful I am to God for His love, and mercy, and grace. I
don't think there's any other man living that loves God any more than I
love Him today. And no one who's more thankful to God for His grace and
mercy. And I was so blessed when Vince taught you the greatness of
grace, today and believing. That was absolutely exquisite. And, I just
so thankful, but that's how He had to teach me, simple little things
like that. That's how I learned. Really somethin'. Heh-heh.â€
***
You wrote: “I haven't exhausted any supply of debate against your points, Mike. I just think that when a blind man says, "Walk in here, you will get perfect 20/20 vision," I gotta question that statement, since the blind man hasn't received the gift himself. Life is short, I'm not going to waste it chasing a carrot on a stick.â€
You have a good point here.
I’m still trying to track this down, and so far I only found one person who remembers this, but Dr taught in an earlier AC that when Naaman went to Elisha for healing, Elisha was blind!
It’s not in the ’79 AC and I can’t find it in my KJV, but this would explain why Elisha didn’t go out to meet Naaman. Naaman had a hard enough time believing anyway, and God protected him from seeing Elisha blind.
Now Elisha’s blindness didn’t prevent him from operating the power of God, but like Jesus in his home town, the believing of others must be in operation.
So, you can operate your life like the natural man Naaman and fail to see what I’m saying is true because of your reliance on your senses. OR, you can listen to God.
[This message was edited by Mike on March 07, 2004 at 15:33.]
quote:You are just painting yourselves into a corner that will be very shameful when you finally do see Jesus Christ teaching out of a orange PFAL book. I have already seen him this way, so I know you will too.
Thanks for your insights Mike. It so simply and concisely exhibits the state of mind of a true worshipper of religious doctrine. I was right after all. You truly are the Grease Spot Cafe poster child for where PFAL worship will lead you. The really funny yet sad thing though is that it appears that you actually believe this.
My advise for you? If the voices or visions tell you to strap something heavy around your waste that looks suspicious and has a detonation devise please reconsider.
I will get to it soon. I did mention that it is in I Cor. 7 so you can start looking there for it, and getting familiar with the context. I will get to it soon, but I’m almost out of time right now.
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T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
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Mike
Doze,
You wrote: “If we (dissenters) do not accept your basic proposition regarding PFAL being the inerrant/inherent "Word of God" then we therfore are considered unworthy or unlearned in it's mastery...â€
This is not my position. You are misunderstanding some subtle points.
I have posted many times now that I have a verse that will show how attitude is MOST important in working AEs and in mastering PFAL the way we need to. YET, no one has expressed the slightest desire to hear the verse.
Without the attitude of meekness toward the material, many things will slip by unattended to.
Here’s one such subtle point: It’s not the unworthiness of the researcher that I emphasize, it’s the unworthiness of the TECHNIQUE non-meek researchers use that is deficient.
Heck, I can hang out with people who aren’t meek to PFAL and like them. I did so last night with three GreaseSpot posters from this board. We had pizza and beer by the beach and had a WONDERFUL time. It was difficult to leave their presence. I was privileged to be in their company.
They understand that I consider them PLENTY worthy to hang out with and enjoy. They know it’s their techniques for examining the details of PFAL that I distance myself from. Why can’t you see it this way too?
***
You wrote: “There are many here who are your equal in debating these issues (and I am not one of them)...it is you who use distraction, by dismissing their arguments out of hand because of their insistance on scrutinizing the writings of Victor Paul Wierwille.â€
I’m not here to debate, but to simply deliver the message. I also engage in a LIMITED amount of discussion about what I post, and I try to include logic and reason in those discussions. But as for a full blown logical proof, that can only be transmitted from the Author of the books to the mastering reader of the books.
It’s only when people insist on such a full blown proof, or that I submit to THEIR full blown dis-proof that I will employ methods that are Biblical (dodge, distract, etc) but that really rile those who insist I engage using their ground rules. Sorry it’s MY rules as I received from God that I employ here regarding my message, not yours or anyone else’s.
You and Rafael and an army here can cry, and stamp your feet, and call me an idolater all you want. You are just painting yourselves into a corner that will be very shameful when you finally do see Jesus Christ teaching out of a orange PFAL book. I have already seen him this way, so I know you will too.
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mj412
Mike it is a good thing your a single lonely man with plenty of time for the internet posting a couple of kids might throw your butt off the throne of abudance.
till then brag all you want . I think you need a wife and a family but God truly blesed your life with that absence? Im sorry if that feels personal but your the one bragging.
Im not one to put someones failing in their face but stop the illusion you said your wife left you hmmm where was the heavy revelation to fix that MESS? hmmm? didnt happen because it was an attack from the adversary oh I know I know we all know the routine of how powerful God is in your life till your attacked and lose.
What is a kings life without an heir to the throne or a plenty of love love from the Queen?
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dmiller
Mike -- I'm sorry, but I gotta say it, The "lost teachings" are no different then the stuff I find in my fridge, that I have forgotten about for 2 or 3 months.
I "master" that which is rotten, and stinking in my fridge, by throwing it out in the trash. Sorry I can't give the "lost teaching" a better comparision, but that is how it is with me, and my house.
The hymn you quoted was great, and you also said:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Outside of this ministry I've seen very few answers. If we knew where there were more, we'd go get them! That's right."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is OUTSIDE of this ministry that we find the answers, and the answers are found in THE BIBLE, not the books by vpw. As Vickles said, "it sounds like a lot of controlling to me", concerning vpw and his books.
I've got to agree with her, and I will go back to the "lost food" in the fridge analogy as a closing statement.
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Mike
dmiller,
You're confusing the PFAL books with the stinky TVT.
They are very different.
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Mike
mj412,
Bless you.
:)-->
[This message was edited by Mike on March 07, 2004 at 1:59.]
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vickles
Mike, no it is not tvt. How things are written and how vpw carried them out are how you get the control. You don't go find out what the needs are. You live and love God and His people and when there are needs from the believer they will have love, trust, and respect and they will come to you. Its a matter of their will not yours as a leader to go find everything. This is where it is wrong.
If I need prayer or help I will ask for it. I don't want anyone coming to me as 'spiritual' and telling me what I need.
About a child's believing. Are you telling me that they have to be an adult to have the law of believing? At what age does that start? So we teach our children your principles but tell them oh but since your a kid it doesn't start until your an adult? And where in your bible does it say that? Does that mean that Jesus wasn't able to walk on your Word until he was considered an adult? Which during that time would have been when he was 30 years old?
In the class vpw himself talks about believing equal receiving and uses the example of red drapes. So in his own usages of the five senses of beleiving equals receiving you are saying this is false. So what you are doing is contridicting what you yourself believe.
So about the spirits thing. Ok so your not saying we are possessed persay but your saying that we have a spirit of oppression or spirits hanging around us to make us not listen to you. What your saying is some kind of spirit is doing this to us. I really believed that crap for many years, I don't need to believe it anymore. As I said before I sure wouldn't want to live in your shoes. Always trying to achieve something in your life as in your mastering and never getting there because it is unattainable.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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Doze
This is even more preposterous Mike. I do not cry or stamp my feet nor have I called you an idolater. I do think it is blasphemous to say Jesus Christ will be teaching out of the orange PFAL book. My guess is that even VPW himself would agree. After the return of Christ there will be no need to teach out of a book containing limited knowledge that will be obsolete compared to what will be available to us then. I haven't painted myself into a corner, that would be you in the corner Mike.
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shazdancer
Mike,
You attempted to discuss "abundance" as meaning spiritual abundance. But that is not all of what VPW taught. He also taught that material abundance was part of the package. I agree with Socks' post on the "Masters of the Word" thread on what was taught in the beginning of PFAL.
Wierwille taught that God was gonna meet your need (not greed) when you believe, right down to the itty-bitty details (red drapes). It was a law, worked for saint and sinner, mathematical exactness, yada yada. Then he goes on to teach that our greatest need is a spiritual one, that we have no holy spirit, and are incomplete, cut off from God, no eternal life. But that DOESN'T negate that he teaches material abundance. One of the Corps principles (the old ones that VP espoused and we were to memorize) was "Practice believing to bring material abundance to you and the ministry."
So now you want to say that you REALLY meant that you have you are free from fear, unlike kings? Sorry Mike, I also work for many very wealthy people who are doing just fine in the freedom-from-fear department. I would be quite content to have their money and show how I can handle it!
;)-->
Do some of those rich people have troubles in their lives? Yes, as do we all, saint and sinner alike.
So now you have been reading and studying PFAL as if it was Holy Writ for at least six years. One would think you would have something to show for it -- after all, it didn't take Paul six years to get from being a Christian-killer to doing some pretty mighty works. Picked any winning horses lately?
;)--> (Ya gotta love that analogy of VPW's -- it goes so against the grain of everything he taught about when revelation is given.)
I haven't exhausted any supply of debate against your points, Mike. I just think that when a blind man says, "Walk in here, you will get perfect 20/20 vision," I gotta question that statement, since the blind man hasn't received the gift himself. Life is short, I'm not going to waste it chasing a carrot on a stick.
Why do I post on your threads? Simple -- I hate rotten carrots, and I'd hate to think that someone else would go after one without first being warned that the carrot is rancid, and on a stick.
Shaz
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mj412
Really for me the idea that God is alive for our benefit and surplus is just wrong.
the Way taught that "God wanted a family" well like so many spoiled brats in our world that turned into the idea that give me or you do not really care give give give memememem ME. or Im going to have a tantrum and blame my brother and sister for my errors and problems in life!
God wants obedience , worship, fear and a great many other huge details the way forgot to metion in the road to the do not worry be happy with what you have or do not (it is all your weakiness) life of a believer.
But the idea sold well, a free ride in life by believing a invisable source of endless what ever we want in life looks good for a sale. We even had songs about Gods spoiled KIDS remember?
Problem is the real DEAL and paper work contract that is written by HOLY scriptures on how to gain abundance and Godly life has a TON of small print involved that was never ever metioned in twi.
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Oakspear
Mike:
Okay, what's the verse?
It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight
Oakspear
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GarthP2000
No need to Mike, as you have already 'measured' it for us, all by pert near everything you say and do on this board. And, to paraphrase from the Bible, 'it has been found wanting'.
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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vickles
The ideas and beliefs that you have mike is all about me. Me and what am I going to get from God. I believe positively and I have MY needs and wants parallel. I do it all. It is because of MY believing that anything comes to pass because I did it. Your not allowing God into your life. Its like a spoiled child demanding of God.
God wants to have a relationship with us. He wants us to be his child and friend. Do we demand of our parents and friends? Oh I see something and we go and demand it because we believe its our right? No. It doesn't sound like a good relationship to me.
By us demanding and doing what we feel is right trying to attain 'all 9 all the time' we end up missing the whole picture of what God and ourselves are all about. By mastering what vpw wrote misses the whole boat on being in a family of believers and experiencing the love that we all have to offer for each other.
You or I are not all powerful than another believer. Because you believe what you believe does not mean that you are The one that has all the answers. In a family we all have something to contribute. We all can learn from each other. We don't have to have ourselves all puffed up in our thinking.
God wants us to meek in our lives. How are we going to learn anything if we are not meek? We can learn from God and His family not only by studying but by doing and being with His family. By you not believing that anyone has anything to offer or contribute to this is by yourself making a statement that we can only learn from you because you are mastering PFAL.
You spend all these hours putting together the works of vpw. What about the works of Jesus Christ? I would rather learn of His works than someone like vpw. That is what is missing from all of this.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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Raf
Mike,
No one's crying. No one's stomping their feet. You're an idolater. I feel sorry for you. You're missing out on so much by cluthing to your little orange idol. Jesus will be teaching out of PFAL? You've seen this? Yeah, right. David Berkowitz saw his dog talking to him. Doesn't make it true.
You can cry all you want, insist the earth shook where Wierwille walked, that he told the truth about snowstorms that didn't happen, that he was a paragon of brains (yeah right) and brawn (yeah right). You can insist that there are no errors in the PFAL materials, and dodge, distract and deny when they are pointed out to you in black and white. Doesn't make it true.
You've wasted your life. You're a sad parody of a believer. You've built a house on sinking sand and you're trying to get us to rent a room.
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GarthP2000
... and no doubt will charge premium $$$ for rent as well.
If this account actually did happen (which I don't believe will happen), I for one wouldn't be shameful. After seeing 'him' teaching out of the PFAL book, I'd turn around, head on back to earth, throwing back a "Ya know, the unbelievers were right after all! ... See ya!!"
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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metastic&ocular
king mike, rafael is right.
you've wasted your life your majesty!
why is it, with all your capacity to analize(not a mis-spelling) data you cannot come to the same conclusion as others, who you deem below your intelligence level?
seared conscience?
spirit of slumber?
your pride?
birds?
if you are soooooo certain that PFAL was the god breathed word then why did you not commit and go all the way,go corps?
put your commitment to the "word" where your mouth is?
i was at one point! until i came to my senses!
mike can you say "jesus christ is my lord and saviour and i believe in my heart that god has raised him from the dead"
can you?
are you a christian mike?
btw, you never did answer my other questions in my post about your "abundant life" your highness.
quite rude.
a weirwille groupie you are, and a weirwille groupie you will remain 'til the end.
pathetic.
too bad you dont know christ mike. he sets captives free.
"he's an ooooold HIPPIE! an' he don' know what to do.
should he let go of the old,should he grab on to the new....."
a thing of beauty
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_DEATH.htm
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Goey
Posted by Mike:
Oh, I can see it now, Jesus holding up a PFAL book and saying, "The Word, The Word, and nothing but the Word!".
ROTFLMAO !!
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Mike
vickles,
You wrote: “Mike, no it is not tvt. How things are written and how vpw carried them out are how you get the control.â€
Dr definitely did control the programs and the activities of his paid staff and the volunteers in the programs. This is right and proper. Control was needed. We were wild hippies or near that in the 70’s. In 1982 he relinquished all that control. That is a sign of someone who is not hungry to control people’s lives, only the machinery of the 5-senses corporation. Remember, we who were “controlled†in the way I’ve described all volunteered to work under his guidance, and remember that the vast majority of grads were NOT in this category.
Yes, when Craig and the Corpse Nazis took over after 1982 things got progressively worse and worse.
Now, when I declare that the books are from God, this should be good news, not smacking of even a hint of abusive control, because the control structure has been decimated. Even TWI-x is on their knees still reeling from Craig’s recent decapitation. Even they are far less controlling now, but the book situation is totally missing the control structure.
***
You wrote: “About a child's believing. Are you telling me that they have to be an adult to have the law of believing?â€
No, that’s NOT what I was saying. I meant that if a child (or if a childish adult grad) attempts to operate the law of believing willy nilly based on a mere desire, and not based on a promise of God, it ain’t gonna work! Please go back and read that post of mine and yours to see this.
***
You wrote: “So about the spirits thing. Ok so your not saying we are possessed persay but your saying that we have a spirit of oppression or spirits hanging around us to make us not listen to you. What your saying is some kind of spirit is doing this to us. I really believed that crap for many years, I don't need to believe it anymore.â€
Hey! Jesus Christ himself was oppressed by spirits at times. In the desert he heard a voice that was not from the senses, he had a hallucinatory false vision, and he was even physically abducted to a high place.
If someone is NOT affected by spirits and satan in this way they may very well be of little threat to the adversary. It’s no shame to be hounded by the adversary. It should be expected if you are walking with the True God.
Dr taught us that we are not responsible for thoughts that occur to us, but we are responsible if we “allow them to lodge in our hair.â€
***
You wrote: “As I said before I sure wouldn't want to live in your shoes. Always trying to achieve something in your life as in your mastering and never getting there because it is unattainable.â€
The books are an easy read. They are definitely masterable.
What’s NOT masterable is your KJV, as I pointed out in my fourth post on the first page of my “Masters of the Word – Mastering PFAL.†No scholar in the world has ever mastered the KJV, the critical Greek texts or the ancient fragments.
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Mike
Doze,
You wrote: “In the past many here approached VPW's writings with same meekness as you.â€
NO! Some here may have done a lot of study in their first exposure to the books, and I am included in this group. However this group (me included) never approached the books like I do now. I’m talking the same kind of meekness to the PFAL books that we used to do with the KJV and critical greeks. I’m talking about using the same kind of mastery techniques we used on the KJV now to be used on the PFAL writings, including word studies. Many did KJV based word studies back then, but no one did serious PFAL based word studies.
***
You wrote: “If we did not fully understand or comprehend we followed his instructions and held it in abeyence until could comprehend. Problem was he as our "teacher" did not allow his propositions to be questioned by us.â€
BS! I happened to park right next to Dr’s camper at the 1972 Rock and I had three pages of questions I got to ask him over the course of that Rock. He also invited us to write him in the class. I know many people who did. There’s one poster here who told me about a question she wrote to Dr near his death which he answered.
Maybe you didn’t know how to approach him, but he was approachable.
***
You wrote: “He sacked researchers on his own research staff that challenged any tenet of PFAL.â€
Yes, and this used to bother me to no end, until I realized why that department was there. If Craig had listened to Dr’s last advice as President at his installation in 1982, he would have phased out the research department, or radically changed it’s mission. Dr said that night that all the basic research was done, but no one heard it really. I posted the entire transcript of this here.
***
You wrote: “It is you sir who brought up rules of debate, rhetoric and logic. Your even referenced other sources now only to say you are playing by a different set of rules...â€
As for rules of debate, rhetoric and logic, I was very clear in my post what I meant. You read it wrong. Let me point it out again:
“I also engage in a LIMITED amount of discussion about what I post, and I try to include logic and reason in those discussions.â€
This sentence slipped by you, as did many things Dr wrote.
***
You wrote: “This is even more preposterous Mike. I do not cry or stamp my feet nor have I called you an idolater. I do think it is blasphemous to say Jesus Christ will be teaching out of the orange PFAL book.â€
Oh, so I’m not an idolater, just a blasphemer! Do you even read poorly what you write yourself?
Of course, the crying ans stamping of feet was a figure of speech, and appropriate to many here, maybe even you.
***
You wrote: “My guess is that even VPW himself would agree.â€
Your guess is not based on a careful scrutiny of what is written. You are loaded with TVT and very little of the Written Word we were given in the PFAL books. I found 90 places where he asserts that PFAL is the written Word of God.
Of course, most of these are very subtle and would not satisfy most here. There are two overt ones though on pages 32 and 116 of TNDC.
***
You wrote: “After the return of Christ there will be no need to teach out of a book containing limited knowledge that will be obsolete compared to what will be available to us then.â€
You know very little of the details of the Gathering. Yes it is true that AFTER the Gathering is all over we will have no need for physical books, but to GET US UP THERE Jesus Christ teaches us out of the written Word from his Father. It’s the written Word that teaches us how to distinguish the spiritual voice of the Father from the close counterfeit voice of the devil.
There are MANY details of the Gathering that we need to learn, and they are in the books.
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Mike
shazdancer,
You wrote: “You attempted to discuss "abundance" as meaning spiritual abundance. But that is not all of what VPW taught. He also taught that material abundance was part of the package.â€
Yes, I agree to this. I simply stated that we need to adopt God’s definition of abundance and not this world’s definition. The MAIN part of the abundance is spiritual, but material is also included. I’ve posted this in several spots lately. It’s too bad this abundance discussion is taking place on two threads at once.
***
Wierwille taught that God was gonna meet your need (not greed) when you believe, right down to the itty-bitty details (red drapes).â€
YES!
***
You wrote: “Then he goes on to teach that our greatest need is a spiritual one, that we have no holy spirit, and are incomplete, cut off from God, no eternal life.â€
YES!
***
You wrote: “But that DOESN'T negate that he teaches material abundance.â€
YES!
***
You wrote: “So now you want to say that you REALLY meant that you have you are free from fear, unlike kings?â€
Here I’d substitute “ALSO†for your use of “REALLY.â€
***
You wrote: “Sorry Mike, I also work for many very wealthy people who are doing just fine in the freedom-from-fear department.â€
Very few people are going to admit their fears to us. Only a very few of my 20 year customers have done this with me. I work in people’s homes, where I see their living procedures, their locks, their alarm systems, their watch dogs, their libraries. Some I’ve been working for over 20 years. I see some of their fears even though they put on a face of fearlessness. It also may be that in the area where you are there are less of the stresses that occur in some of the bigger cities. The coastal cities are far more devilish that the interior of the country. Plus, it is commonly reported that when people win the lottery or suddenly acquire great riches, the stresses hurt them greatly, and in many ways unimaginable to us who have a more balanced form of material abundance like I’ve already discussed.
***
You wrote: “So now you have been reading and studying PFAL as if it was Holy Writ for at least six years. One would think you would have something to show for itâ€
I do have. But do you really think my description of my abundance is going to mean anything to anyone here?
Suppose one of my rewards for my study was to have a mansion and many cars and a staff of helpers. Would I want to spend time with a grad who decides to come back to PFAL for such a shallow reason as gaining material over-abundance? I think not. I’m GLAD that I don’t have such false powers of persuasion, because I only want to work closely with those grads who want to come back to PFAL out of a love for God and an thankfulness for what great things they learned in their first exposure. I’m glad that the level of worldly riches I enjoy filters out air-head grads, because I don’t have time to wait for them to mature.
***
You wrote: “...after all, it didn't take Paul six years to get from being a Christian-killer to doing some pretty mighty works.â€
Actually you might want to research this out, but my impression is that Paul spent 7 years in the desert first, checking it all out after the Road to Damascus incident, and then it was an additional 14 years before he really got cooking with the mystery. I could be wrong about this, but I know I don’t feel bad about how slow it may look I’m progressing. I know that in my heart is there is an exciting adventure in learning taking place every day. I don’t think I could handle a faster pace.
***
You wrote: “Picked any winning horses lately? (Ya gotta love that analogy of VPW's -- it goes so against the grain of everything he taught about when revelation is given.)â€
You are forgetting some of the details of the horses. He himself admitted that the horses thing was “against the grain.†He told us that he was simply LEARNING how get revelation then.
Just to refresh your memory, here is a portion of segment 9 of the ’79 AC:
“A great many of these things, regarding the revelation
manifestations, I learned because, I believe, of God's abundant grace.
When I think about that tonight, while I - er this session, while I'm
teaching you, I get chills running up and down my spine by what I'm
saying. 'Cause today, I would never, quote "tempt" end of quote, God
like I did once. I didn't know, nobody'd taught me like I'm teaching
you, I just didn't know! So I was "stupid"! And God, in His infinite
mercy and grace, Gosh He was just so fantastic. Ha-ha!
“I remember the time that, what's that street called, past Marshal
Fields {store} in Chicago? Michigan avenue, I think. Goes past Marshal
Fields in Chicago. I wa- what? Michigan? What ever they said, is
right. O.K.? You know, I was too embarrassed to do it in Van Wert,
{Ohio} 'cause everybody knew me in Van Wert. So I couldn't work in Van
Wert, I was too embarrassed to try it. So, I went some place were
nobody would know me, ya know, just nobody. And I did it at an hour, on
that street where Marshal Fields, in Chicago goes, when they go out for
lunch and there's just thousands of people go by, you know, and nobody
knows me. So, I thought, boy, that's a real way to learn.
“So I, hah, I did that, ha-hah, really somethin'. And I walked down
that street and here were all these people coming out for lunch and I'd
say: "Father, is that one a Christian or not a Christian?" Then God
would show me a Big white heart, and I'd walk by and I'd say "Pardon me,
but are you a Christian?" and they'd say "Yeah", wonderful! I'd say;
"Thank-you", I'd keep going, see? Ha-ha-hah! Then I'd keep on walking,
you know, and I'd say: "Father, how about that one, is that one a
Christian?" and God would show me a big old black rotten heart. And I'd
say to him: "Sir, pardon me, but are you a Christian?" . . . "Hell, no!"
Whew, I'd say "Thank-you, Lord!" Ha-ha-ha! - That's how I learned a lot
of this stuff."
“Today, when I think about it, I get chills running up and down my
spine. But I had nobody to teach me like I'm teaching you, and going to
teach you. Nobody unfolded - there just wasn't any Word that was
unfolded to me along these lines, I did not know! And that's why, I
think, God leaned over backwards, as I told you, to teach me a lot of
these things, so that I can teach it to you, I guess. Ha-hah, yeah.
“This week, while the great runners were running from Rome City to
Athens here, and I think that was significant to run from Rome to Athens
with light. (laughter) They stopped in Van Wert, and I took a lot of
our people to the Van Wert county fair grounds. Mrs. Wierwille and I,
we rode our motor cycles, our motor cycle to Payne, and met 'em there,
then we went on to Van Wert and met 'em there. Then I took a lot of our
people that - all-all of them that weren't running, we went over to the
Van Wert county fair grounds, showed them where we used to have our Van
Wert Gospel Gift Shop and other things.
“Then I showed 'em the old fence up there - it's still there, same
place, where I picked out all the winners that day for every race. And
I don't know a lousy thing about horses, except I know the rear end is
where the tail is and the head is where that elongated rectangular thing
is-that's all I know about race horses. I- you know, I just went to the
Kentucky derby by Mr. Reynolds up at Reynolds Tobacco Company or
Reynolds Aluminum, this year, by His grace and mercy. I don't know
anything about horses. Betting on a horse would be about like, I don't
know what, it's stupid for me, I don't know anything about it. So, I
said; "Hey, Father, which one's gonna win this race?" and He said
"Number seven." so, I'd write down number 7. Second race, who's gonna
win it? He said number 3, so I write down 3.
“Next to me I had a man who knew horses inside and out who was an
official man betting on horses all the time. That afternoon, he never
won one race, I won every one of them. And I didn't bet, but I won
every one of them, by picking them ahead of time. You talk about God's
mercy and grace, you see why I sit with fear and trembling when I even
tell you these things 'cause God just leaned over backwards to teach me
- He knew all the time which dumb horse was gonna win. And He was just
teaching me that He was God and revelation isn't stupid.
“Now I'm not advocating you go out and bet at the Kentucky derby, ya
might flup-yer-dub or something, but He was teaching me and that's the
love and the mercy of God, and the grace of God that, class, I cannot
tell you how thankful I am to God for His love, and mercy, and grace. I
don't think there's any other man living that loves God any more than I
love Him today. And no one who's more thankful to God for His grace and
mercy. And I was so blessed when Vince taught you the greatness of
grace, today and believing. That was absolutely exquisite. And, I just
so thankful, but that's how He had to teach me, simple little things
like that. That's how I learned. Really somethin'. Heh-heh.â€
***
You wrote: “I haven't exhausted any supply of debate against your points, Mike. I just think that when a blind man says, "Walk in here, you will get perfect 20/20 vision," I gotta question that statement, since the blind man hasn't received the gift himself. Life is short, I'm not going to waste it chasing a carrot on a stick.â€
You have a good point here.
I’m still trying to track this down, and so far I only found one person who remembers this, but Dr taught in an earlier AC that when Naaman went to Elisha for healing, Elisha was blind!
It’s not in the ’79 AC and I can’t find it in my KJV, but this would explain why Elisha didn’t go out to meet Naaman. Naaman had a hard enough time believing anyway, and God protected him from seeing Elisha blind.
Now Elisha’s blindness didn’t prevent him from operating the power of God, but like Jesus in his home town, the believing of others must be in operation.
So, you can operate your life like the natural man Naaman and fail to see what I’m saying is true because of your reliance on your senses. OR, you can listen to God.
[This message was edited by Mike on March 07, 2004 at 15:33.]
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Mark Sanguinetti
Mike says,
Thanks for your insights Mike. It so simply and concisely exhibits the state of mind of a true worshipper of religious doctrine. I was right after all. You truly are the Grease Spot Cafe poster child for where PFAL worship will lead you. The really funny yet sad thing though is that it appears that you actually believe this.
My advise for you? If the voices or visions tell you to strap something heavy around your waste that looks suspicious and has a detonation devise please reconsider.
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metastic&ocular
mikeelezebub.
are you going to address my post?
a thing of beauty
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_DEATH.htm
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Mike
When you start reading my posts better.
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Mike
Oakspear,
You wrote: “Okay, what's the verse?
FINALLY! Someone finally asks!
I will get to it soon. I did mention that it is in I Cor. 7 so you can start looking there for it, and getting familiar with the context. I will get to it soon, but I’m almost out of time right now.
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metastic&ocular
mikeelezebub.
that's a crude dodge mike
do you think everyone here does not see that?
mike can you say: "jesus christ is my lord and saviour and i believe that God has raised him from the dead"
can you say that?
can you write it? will the birds let you?
prove me wrong for once.
a thing of beauty
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_DEATH.htm
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