Someday every tear shall be wiped away by him who bled his heart out for us, our brother the lord Jesus Christ. Until that day we can pray for each other when things go wrong. Someday everything will be right.
PFAL was a class. It should have been periodically reviewed. If errors were found of any kind, especially doctrinally, it should have been redone one segment at a time. TWI had the resources to do this. The reason why this was not done is that Victor Wierwille was not meek enough. The most important thing to him was maintaining his aura of teaching perfection. He was the pope of TWI. What he spoke doctrinally as president of TWI was some how perfect just like the pope in the Roman Catholic Church speaking to Roman Catholics. Later Victor passed on his religious title and prestige to the most loyal yes man that he had, Craig Martindale.
Victor, in spite of his ego, at least seemed to have some respect for the scriptures. When it comes right down to it you seem to have very little respect for the scriptures. Personally, I don't think you are a threat at all on Grease Spot Cafe. I think you are living proof that the religion of TWI and PFAL, taken to an extreme and out of the context of a class that needed to be improved and periodically revised, did not and does not work. Furthermore, everyone on Grease Spot Cafe seems to know this. Even the Victor Wierwille apologists, some of whom have posted for a number of months here know this. Everyone seems to know this except you Mike. Are you trying to con us or are you really that dense?
[This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on January 05, 2003 at 0:33.]
[This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on January 05, 2003 at 0:56.]
May I disagree with you, Mark? It was a class from God, and that’s why the adversary turned all his venom on everyone there when they let their guard down. Now I come here to express that opinion (sometimes opinions are correct) and the adversary turns his venom on me.
Just look at the above posts. Mark, can you with good conscience, as a writer on the Lordship of Jesus Christ, stand by and ignore those posts and simply write on about your theology?
I did my best to reach out to a girl who asked for my help, and look how it’s received. I’m dangerous?
It’s just as bad here as TWI-2. If someone doesn’t tow the official line, both here or twi, then unleash the dogs on him!
Maybe those posts will be gone when the administrators get back from their dates, or wake up tomorrow morning, but the venom wont be gone, will it linger until you responsible GreaseSpotters (RG where are you) figure out how it got here. It will grow and consume you all.
So venom at twi has no excuse, but it is ok here, because people had something happen to them? Is that how it works?
What if twi leaders had “something†happen to them, is their venom ok and understandable then? What if Dr had something happen to HIM, will you all give him a pass?
Does anyone here know Abigail and Vertical Limit. Are you ashamed of their twi like behavior? Are you going to confront venom here, or give it a pass, just like it got in twi?
Rafael, you said you attack the message, not the messenger. Do you stand by idle when someone attacks the messenger so flagrantly? Do you passively condone open NEAR threats? Nasty bully tactics? Will you stand up for me, and confront the evil that has crept in here? Or is evil only bad at twi, and cute here? It’s deja vu all over again. All you GreaseSpotters who think it’s ok for the children to shilt in your living room may get some on yourseves soon... not mine, from your own.
I have saved this page as evidence.
I do hope those posts are removed tomorrow, the offenders are confronted by ALL GreaseSpotters, especially their best friends here. Now we’ll find out just how many Greasspotters got away from twi with a genuine heart for God, and how many brought the devil with them to soil the carpets here.
I will accept an apology from the offenders if those of you with any integrity are successful in ministering to your own kin here. Let’s see how effective your religion is now.
Now that I’ve assisted some of you all in the derailment of my “own†thread, supposedly on Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching.
It’s time to pull in the reins and get back on the path.
Whohhhhh Betsy! Not that way, THIS Way.
>>>>>>
Come on old girl, I already told you I don’t listen to your Nay’s or your whining. Gidddy UP! Up where Christ sits on the right hand of the Father!
>>>>>
You can Do it, girl! Don’t be afraid. I’m right here for you.
I’ll sing to you, OK?
The Lord knows the Way through the wilderness,
All we have to do is follow.
The Lord knows the Way ......
Hey, what’s that on the horizon? Could that be....HIM!? Maybe!
Full speed, we’re flying IN THE AIR soon to meet HIM.
In studying Dr's Last/Lost Teaching we see that the word "master" comes up quite a bit. By looking at his previous usage of this word, how Dr used it in his vocabulary, we can really see some electrifying truths. The big key here is the word “master†and we will eventually see it much deeper than we ever dreamed.
Please let me tell you a story about PFAL'77. I worked at HQ from 1976 to 1978. In the weeks just prior to PFAL'77 an amazing event took place. All the staff got together for lunch every weekday in those days. There was one particular BRC lunch just one week before that class started where Dr's comments were so significant, that I feel a need to type them out.
I've related what I heard at this meeting to a number of people, but I've only run into one person who was actually in attendance, and that's Thomas B. A few months ago I was talking with him on the phone, and when the subject of those lunchroom comments of Dr's came up, he immediately launched into his remembrances of Dr's words. Thomas's recollections were almost exactly the same as mine, as well as his appreciation for the significance of them. This was very encouraging to me.
Thomas has been pretty busy lately, but someday I should call him to help me beef up this story with more detail. Reconstructing past events is no where near as accurate as printed materials or tapes. It's much more sure to consult the record and refresh memory for important things. I have strongly endeavored to not rely on memory as many have erroneously done, but the details of some unrecorded events might be made more solid by some round about ways. For one, an individual's memory may be checked by multiple witness testimony. Plus if there are some traces of the event on record, that can be some further confirmation. So I proceed, albeit on the shaky ground of mere human memory.
The grand purpose of this story is to illuminate some of the background for a teaching of Dr's that I will be talking about soon. This teaching has a rich history, so I'll confine myself here in this post to the topic of the teaching's origins. In my next post we can get into the teaching itself. In all there are four parts to this very important post.
In the early months of 1977 the staff at HQ began to work on various projects to prepare for the PFAL '77 class coming up that summer. Different departments had different items to deal with at differing times. As the class date approached almost all departments had so many extra duties that everyone was expected to work an hour overtime each day, and at no extra pay, of course. We were happy to participate.
It was fun to think we were taking part in the production of a "superior" version of the PFAL class. I had been on staff for about a year by then, and the PFAL'77 prep seemed to me to be somewhat like the Rock of Ages in importance. It was a very big deal to everyone. I especially was looking froward to seeing exactly what Dr might add or change. In those days I thought that there were some non-fatal errors in PFAL, and I wanted to see them corrected in an even better class.
The appearance of 1967 film class, juxtaposed with the disco styles of the day, was becoming embarrassingly obsolete to some. In addition to the often discussed tie-width and hair-wetness fashion factors that seemed to necessitate a redoing of the PFAL film, the newly available medium of video tape was far superior to 16 mm film class in quality. We also figured that new Biblical research to upgrade the class would be a significant step ahead, since ten years of additional learning had taken place since the '67 filming. It was an exciting time to work on staff, as PFAL '77 got closer.
Several weeks before the class our daily overtime grew to two and three hours per day at times. Some people were putting in near 80 hour weeks, depending on their responsibilities.
At lunch one day, in the BRC basement, Dr announced that as part of his preparation for the class he was going to "take" the class for the first time. At that time he had only seen the first half hour of the '67 film class, so in order to prepare for teaching the same material again, Dr set up a schedule to watch the entire film/video class. Every day he'd show up at lunch and tell us which session he was in as he progressed through the class. Some days he did only one session, other days he did only a part.
When Dr completed Session Five he reported to us that he had Christ in him, "the hope of glory" and we all cheered. Word went around that some staffers were doing up a PFAL diploma for Dr, so that he could become an official "PFAL Grad." Everyone was quite excited to see Dr take the class this way. It was a wonderful touch to see this as we all worked hard to prepare for PFAL'77.
Then one day Dr showed up at lunch with a glum face.
I'll do my best here to paraphrase what he said, but I have no direct quotes. I’ll use double-double quotes to indicate this. For a few of Dr's words I can distinctly remember his exact phraseology. For some words I can only remember the gist or the punch his words carried. But his overall mood and message at that pre-PFAL'77 lunchroom talk made such an impression that today it is quite memorable.
The mood Dr conveyed in facial expressions, vocal inflection, body language, and exact spoken words was a huge downer. I had never before seen Dr look or speak so negative. Later that year I saw Dr pretty down one day after Uncle Harry went into the hospital for the second time, just days before his death. That was the only other time I ever saw Dr exhibit such negativity of heart. Oh sure I saw him blow his stack plenty of times, but I mean discouraged or hurt negativity. This lunchroom announcement was drastically different from the previous days of fun PFAL review announcements from Dr.
Dr said something like:
““I have something to say that probably will not please some people, but that they can just renew their minds to it, and learn to live with it.â€â€
I think he even said, or indicated that God had just told him something, and he was not too happy about it. Then he said something like:
““Sorry, but we're going to have to cancel the PFAL'77 class!â€â€
Yikes! Everyone froze in the lunchroom. Did he really say that? This was the question many of us were thinking. How could this be? How could such a great undertaking be scuttled? Was Dr just testing us? Was this something like the way Dr canceled the very first Way Corps, the zero-th Corps? Is Dr punishing us for something we did to fail him in preparation for this class? How could such an investment in people's abundant sharing be thrown away? All these went through my mind, and I think many others too.
So, with that opening statement, Dr REALLY got our attention. He then went on to explain. He said he was in something like session 8 or 9 and that it just hit him like a ton of bricks, that he could never teach that class again!
One near quote I remember is: “That thing moves like greased lightning and I could never keep up with that pace,†he said looking down and shaking his head from side to side saying silently "No, no, no"
He also went on to say that God had taught him some very special things as he was teaching that film class, and that there was no way anyone could replace it or duplicate it. The old film class would just have to do the job.
He said some things about the '67 film class filming as being done by revelation from God, and that there just was no revelation in 1977 from God to try and do it again. Dr left the distinct impression that the whole idea for doing PFAL'77 was of man, and not of God, whereas the '67 class was of God.
Dr basically told us that some people had talked him into doing up a replacement for the film class and that it was not God's idea at all. This was a bit of a shocker to me. I had assumed that it was being done by revelation, and here was Dr saying no, it wasn't.
I know that prior to 1982 when Dr stepped down as president, lots of Dr's top men would at times talk him into things he really didn't want to do. At this BRC lunch I heard him complain of this. Dr's top men had talked him into committing the resources of the ministry for PFAL '77 being a video replacement for the '67 film class.
You could hear a pin drop in that room as Dr related all these things.
Then he said:
““We can still go forth with the Muncie plans and do PFAL'77 as a supplement for grads, but there will never be a replacement for the original film class.â€â€
With these words there was an audible sigh of relief from just about everybody in the lunchroom. I think most of us were keyed in on the first half of that sentence, and we only faintly heard the last half.
An interesting side note: the video tapes they made of PFAL'77 seem to have never surfaced. Just last year MG told me that the only tapes he still wanted for his collection were those PFAL'77 videos. After 1988 I went headlong into intense bootleg tape activity for a full ten years, but the PFAL'77 tapes seemed to have disappeared! Dr gave MG all sorts of access to tapes, more than anyone else, yet he doesn't have these.
So, Dr changed the course of the ship, right there in that lunchroom meeting. He also announced this change in a very dramatic and memorable way. In so doing he highlighted some key remarks of his about that original film class that are useful to our learning today. Specifically, CLONE CLASSES CAN'T CUT IT!
It’s only by mastering what God taught Dr and Dr taught us in writing that we will be able to serve God's Word to others. All attempts I’ve seen or heard of in splinter groups and in the big stump have had relatively minor results. Minor compared to the “good old days.â€
I could be wrong about this world-wide, but in my sphere of awareness, there has not been a single grad of any clone classes to rise up to the level of a WOW or a Corps candidate or a committed, serving clergy. All the big leaders are old PFAL grads, the clone grads are not inspired to drop everything and move the Word like Dr inspired his grads. If you know of ONE, please e-mail me..... in a couple years, and tell me your favorite clone grad is still cooking. I’d like to meet him or her.
Back to my story:
A few days later, after the lunchroom announcement, at the next Sunday night service, Dr repeated a few of those same remarks he had made in the BRC lunchroom. For one, he says on tape that re-teaching PFAL is impossible. Those remarks appear in a couple of places on the SNS tape from that evening mixed in with the announcements and in the teaching. It was a great SNS teaching. It is SNS tape #865 from June 12, 1977.
Two years after the lunchroom incident that same SNS teaching was presented in its final written form in the May/June 1979 Way Magazine. It is this magazine article, and it's connections to those lunchroom comments by Dr, and it's connections to Dr's final instructions to master PFAL that I want to bring to your attention. Next, I'll send the teaching.
The title of the teaching is "Masters of the Word."
Your last post is to long for me to read. I have told you politely that you should shorten them. My beliefs, unlike yours, are not set in concrete. I learn new things from the bible almost every day. When I learn new things that contradict what I have previously believed I change what I teach.
You are very fortunate that I shared my paper on the Lordship of Jesus Christ with you. Although, I worked a number of years on that one I am always open to reasonable feed back. I also wrote it with the intent that people can learn the knowledge that I have to offer in it with as little time and effort as possible. If you want me to read your posts you will have to shorten them just like everyone else. It is nothing personal. I am just to busy. However, thank you for at least addressing what you had to say to me at the beginning of your last post.
[This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on January 05, 2003 at 0:57.]
Mark, I'm talking about the way I was treated above. Your head is so stuck in theology you can't see anything practical, like the adversary infecting yout family. Read the OTHER people's posts above, not mine. Read them and weep. The same thing that happened at twi is happening right here before your very eyse, and you want to talk SOUND BITE theology!
I have read posts on Grease Spot Cafe for many months now. I have helped a number of people here. Grease Spot Cafe is an internet community. It is a team. When I am able to help an individual I do so. However, every believer has their gift of service to the body of Christ. When I see an opportunity to help I do so. Others are able ministers also. Even people who don't call themselves Christians can be very helpful.
Perhaps I missread your post above. Are you complaining about the way that you have been treated on Grease Spot Cafe? I and others don't mean to mistreat you. However, your posts perhaps seem judgemental to others. Perhaps, you should change your message. Perhaps, you are the one that needs to be more practical with your religious advice. Perhaps, you should try to help others instead of constantly preaching the word of Victor Wierwille to everyone.
Man, I don't know where to put this, so here goes.
There's been a lot of discussion about 1942, the snowstorm, and the promise to VP that if he'd teach it, God would teach the Word to him like it hadn't been known since long time gone. That's actually kind of neat taken on just face value...A message that has been lost and a requirement that to have it shown to you will be you have to share it with others.
Can anyone document where and when God told VP to put it in to a class and sell it for money?
Venom? No I don't think so. I've seen others get worse here and not cry about it like you do.
I suspect you post here because no one else would listen to what you are trying to promote.
Speaking of which I think vpw would even tell you to knock it off.
You've been given room for doubt that possibly what was said is not true.
What I think I see is a predator at work and I think maybe Abigail sees it too-maybe not-but you certainly picked the right doctrine for abuse to follow. You don't seem to see it.
Like mj412 said
"you know Mike to your honest glory you have helped many many see the rabid senseless mind set of those involved in TWI and just how consuming and pathetic the end can be."
So you are doing some good here.
Why would you want to worship vp when there is so much more to life. I think you are taking the easy way out. Not thinking for yourself and applying your own mind to understanding the scripture. Instead you take vp's word for it.
A lot of things he taught I agree with and a lot of things I don't.
VL, you hit on something that deserves elaboration. For the most part a person who bases his knowledge of God & subsequent teaching on Wierwille will be limiting his audience mainly to those who think Wierwille is or was ever worth listening to. A small and shrinking group, wouldn't you say.
I refuse to listen to Wierwille, not because he never said anything true, but because his charater demands it. It's the same eason i wouldn't waste my time looking for truth with Jim Jones, David Koresh or the Baghwan Rajneesh.
Why would i waste my time with Wierwille when I can learn more from those of sterling character, who modeled a living faith? How about Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Augustine, Billy Graham?
I have seen some of those "streling character" people picked apart too. Sometimes it seems amazing what you can find with some simple web searches...not to mention some indirect personal experience. The point is, as for example I was trying to say on the Billy Graham thread, they (BG in this case), gain respect for what they speak and preach and teach about God, even if I do not agree with everything they do or understand.
anybody that get's any real trouble from "Mike", let me know
i have access to those with the skills who could end his "mission" and destroy his "data"
not a threat, Mike, just a warning :D-->
I have an EXTREME dislike for decievers and stalkers, as do those with the necessary skills!
I pray God will help you, Mike
next time your sweating your "hippie" a$$ off cleaning windows, look at the reflection and ask the man in the glass what he is REALLY doing with his life?
I'm going to write Pawtucket and ask him how to handle all this.
Seems SOME of you folks really don't want me here, and now I'm getting warned of a threat.
Very twi-like atmosphere.
I noticed no one took me up on my suggestion for a poll. Afraid of the results? I'm not. But then again, OCD#1 has the skills to throw it off. Maybe an open ballot.
I appeal to Caesar.... I mean Andy Kaufmann. If I'm legitimately voted off I'll take my ball and glove and leave.
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T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
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Mike
Dear mj412,
Someday every tear shall be wiped away by him who bled his heart out for us, our brother the lord Jesus Christ. Until that day we can pray for each other when things go wrong. Someday everything will be right.
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Abigail
deleted by Abigail
[This message was edited by Abigail on January 09, 2003 at 3:12.]
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Abigail
delted by Abigail
[This message was edited by Abigail on January 09, 2003 at 3:14.]
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Vertical Limit
I agree with you there Abigail
100%
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Mike
Looks to me like a classic case of "If you don't like the message, attack the messenger."
So, should I leave? Take a poll?
What's more, Abigail, I sent an e-mail TO YOU, responding to your post as to WHO DO I FELLOWSHIP WITH.
So, let me get this straight... you are trying to snoop around for info on me, you got my ISP and can hack your way to my true identity.
HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLP !!! Pawtucket! Mandii help me. Pamsandiego come home, quick.
[This message was edited by Mike on January 04, 2003 at 23:14.]
[This message was edited by Mike on January 04, 2003 at 23:16.]
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Vertical Limit
a dangerous person because of a dangerous doctrine apparantly believed and when it's applied it yields dangerous results
twi 1
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Vertical Limit
lcm and others pulled that "If you don't like the message, attack the messenger." gun out a lot too.
Your message is dangerous and if you believe it so are you.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Mike:
PFAL was a class. It should have been periodically reviewed. If errors were found of any kind, especially doctrinally, it should have been redone one segment at a time. TWI had the resources to do this. The reason why this was not done is that Victor Wierwille was not meek enough. The most important thing to him was maintaining his aura of teaching perfection. He was the pope of TWI. What he spoke doctrinally as president of TWI was some how perfect just like the pope in the Roman Catholic Church speaking to Roman Catholics. Later Victor passed on his religious title and prestige to the most loyal yes man that he had, Craig Martindale.
Victor, in spite of his ego, at least seemed to have some respect for the scriptures. When it comes right down to it you seem to have very little respect for the scriptures. Personally, I don't think you are a threat at all on Grease Spot Cafe. I think you are living proof that the religion of TWI and PFAL, taken to an extreme and out of the context of a class that needed to be improved and periodically revised, did not and does not work. Furthermore, everyone on Grease Spot Cafe seems to know this. Even the Victor Wierwille apologists, some of whom have posted for a number of months here know this. Everyone seems to know this except you Mike. Are you trying to con us or are you really that dense?
[This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on January 05, 2003 at 0:33.]
[This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on January 05, 2003 at 0:56.]
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Mike
May I disagree with you, Mark? It was a class from God, and that’s why the adversary turned all his venom on everyone there when they let their guard down. Now I come here to express that opinion (sometimes opinions are correct) and the adversary turns his venom on me.
Just look at the above posts. Mark, can you with good conscience, as a writer on the Lordship of Jesus Christ, stand by and ignore those posts and simply write on about your theology?
I did my best to reach out to a girl who asked for my help, and look how it’s received. I’m dangerous?
It’s just as bad here as TWI-2. If someone doesn’t tow the official line, both here or twi, then unleash the dogs on him!
Maybe those posts will be gone when the administrators get back from their dates, or wake up tomorrow morning, but the venom wont be gone, will it linger until you responsible GreaseSpotters (RG where are you) figure out how it got here. It will grow and consume you all.
So venom at twi has no excuse, but it is ok here, because people had something happen to them? Is that how it works?
What if twi leaders had “something†happen to them, is their venom ok and understandable then? What if Dr had something happen to HIM, will you all give him a pass?
Does anyone here know Abigail and Vertical Limit. Are you ashamed of their twi like behavior? Are you going to confront venom here, or give it a pass, just like it got in twi?
Rafael, you said you attack the message, not the messenger. Do you stand by idle when someone attacks the messenger so flagrantly? Do you passively condone open NEAR threats? Nasty bully tactics? Will you stand up for me, and confront the evil that has crept in here? Or is evil only bad at twi, and cute here? It’s deja vu all over again. All you GreaseSpotters who think it’s ok for the children to shilt in your living room may get some on yourseves soon... not mine, from your own.
I have saved this page as evidence.
I do hope those posts are removed tomorrow, the offenders are confronted by ALL GreaseSpotters, especially their best friends here. Now we’ll find out just how many Greasspotters got away from twi with a genuine heart for God, and how many brought the devil with them to soil the carpets here.
I will accept an apology from the offenders if those of you with any integrity are successful in ministering to your own kin here. Let’s see how effective your religion is now.
Now that I’ve assisted some of you all in the derailment of my “own†thread, supposedly on Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching.
It’s time to pull in the reins and get back on the path.
Whohhhhh Betsy! Not that way, THIS Way.
>>>>>>
Come on old girl, I already told you I don’t listen to your Nay’s or your whining. Gidddy UP! Up where Christ sits on the right hand of the Father!
>>>>>
You can Do it, girl! Don’t be afraid. I’m right here for you.
I’ll sing to you, OK?
The Lord knows the Way through the wilderness,
All we have to do is follow.
The Lord knows the Way ......
Hey, what’s that on the horizon? Could that be....HIM!? Maybe!
Full speed, we’re flying IN THE AIR soon to meet HIM.
High Yohhhhhhhhh MASTER A-WAY!!!!!!
***********************************************************
A PFAL’77 STORY
In studying Dr's Last/Lost Teaching we see that the word "master" comes up quite a bit. By looking at his previous usage of this word, how Dr used it in his vocabulary, we can really see some electrifying truths. The big key here is the word “master†and we will eventually see it much deeper than we ever dreamed.
Please let me tell you a story about PFAL'77. I worked at HQ from 1976 to 1978. In the weeks just prior to PFAL'77 an amazing event took place. All the staff got together for lunch every weekday in those days. There was one particular BRC lunch just one week before that class started where Dr's comments were so significant, that I feel a need to type them out.
I've related what I heard at this meeting to a number of people, but I've only run into one person who was actually in attendance, and that's Thomas B. A few months ago I was talking with him on the phone, and when the subject of those lunchroom comments of Dr's came up, he immediately launched into his remembrances of Dr's words. Thomas's recollections were almost exactly the same as mine, as well as his appreciation for the significance of them. This was very encouraging to me.
Thomas has been pretty busy lately, but someday I should call him to help me beef up this story with more detail. Reconstructing past events is no where near as accurate as printed materials or tapes. It's much more sure to consult the record and refresh memory for important things. I have strongly endeavored to not rely on memory as many have erroneously done, but the details of some unrecorded events might be made more solid by some round about ways. For one, an individual's memory may be checked by multiple witness testimony. Plus if there are some traces of the event on record, that can be some further confirmation. So I proceed, albeit on the shaky ground of mere human memory.
The grand purpose of this story is to illuminate some of the background for a teaching of Dr's that I will be talking about soon. This teaching has a rich history, so I'll confine myself here in this post to the topic of the teaching's origins. In my next post we can get into the teaching itself. In all there are four parts to this very important post.
In the early months of 1977 the staff at HQ began to work on various projects to prepare for the PFAL '77 class coming up that summer. Different departments had different items to deal with at differing times. As the class date approached almost all departments had so many extra duties that everyone was expected to work an hour overtime each day, and at no extra pay, of course. We were happy to participate.
It was fun to think we were taking part in the production of a "superior" version of the PFAL class. I had been on staff for about a year by then, and the PFAL'77 prep seemed to me to be somewhat like the Rock of Ages in importance. It was a very big deal to everyone. I especially was looking froward to seeing exactly what Dr might add or change. In those days I thought that there were some non-fatal errors in PFAL, and I wanted to see them corrected in an even better class.
The appearance of 1967 film class, juxtaposed with the disco styles of the day, was becoming embarrassingly obsolete to some. In addition to the often discussed tie-width and hair-wetness fashion factors that seemed to necessitate a redoing of the PFAL film, the newly available medium of video tape was far superior to 16 mm film class in quality. We also figured that new Biblical research to upgrade the class would be a significant step ahead, since ten years of additional learning had taken place since the '67 filming. It was an exciting time to work on staff, as PFAL '77 got closer.
Several weeks before the class our daily overtime grew to two and three hours per day at times. Some people were putting in near 80 hour weeks, depending on their responsibilities.
At lunch one day, in the BRC basement, Dr announced that as part of his preparation for the class he was going to "take" the class for the first time. At that time he had only seen the first half hour of the '67 film class, so in order to prepare for teaching the same material again, Dr set up a schedule to watch the entire film/video class. Every day he'd show up at lunch and tell us which session he was in as he progressed through the class. Some days he did only one session, other days he did only a part.
When Dr completed Session Five he reported to us that he had Christ in him, "the hope of glory" and we all cheered. Word went around that some staffers were doing up a PFAL diploma for Dr, so that he could become an official "PFAL Grad." Everyone was quite excited to see Dr take the class this way. It was a wonderful touch to see this as we all worked hard to prepare for PFAL'77.
Then one day Dr showed up at lunch with a glum face.
I'll do my best here to paraphrase what he said, but I have no direct quotes. I’ll use double-double quotes to indicate this. For a few of Dr's words I can distinctly remember his exact phraseology. For some words I can only remember the gist or the punch his words carried. But his overall mood and message at that pre-PFAL'77 lunchroom talk made such an impression that today it is quite memorable.
The mood Dr conveyed in facial expressions, vocal inflection, body language, and exact spoken words was a huge downer. I had never before seen Dr look or speak so negative. Later that year I saw Dr pretty down one day after Uncle Harry went into the hospital for the second time, just days before his death. That was the only other time I ever saw Dr exhibit such negativity of heart. Oh sure I saw him blow his stack plenty of times, but I mean discouraged or hurt negativity. This lunchroom announcement was drastically different from the previous days of fun PFAL review announcements from Dr.
Dr said something like:
““I have something to say that probably will not please some people, but that they can just renew their minds to it, and learn to live with it.â€â€
I think he even said, or indicated that God had just told him something, and he was not too happy about it. Then he said something like:
““Sorry, but we're going to have to cancel the PFAL'77 class!â€â€
Yikes! Everyone froze in the lunchroom. Did he really say that? This was the question many of us were thinking. How could this be? How could such a great undertaking be scuttled? Was Dr just testing us? Was this something like the way Dr canceled the very first Way Corps, the zero-th Corps? Is Dr punishing us for something we did to fail him in preparation for this class? How could such an investment in people's abundant sharing be thrown away? All these went through my mind, and I think many others too.
So, with that opening statement, Dr REALLY got our attention. He then went on to explain. He said he was in something like session 8 or 9 and that it just hit him like a ton of bricks, that he could never teach that class again!
One near quote I remember is: “That thing moves like greased lightning and I could never keep up with that pace,†he said looking down and shaking his head from side to side saying silently "No, no, no"
He also went on to say that God had taught him some very special things as he was teaching that film class, and that there was no way anyone could replace it or duplicate it. The old film class would just have to do the job.
He said some things about the '67 film class filming as being done by revelation from God, and that there just was no revelation in 1977 from God to try and do it again. Dr left the distinct impression that the whole idea for doing PFAL'77 was of man, and not of God, whereas the '67 class was of God.
Dr basically told us that some people had talked him into doing up a replacement for the film class and that it was not God's idea at all. This was a bit of a shocker to me. I had assumed that it was being done by revelation, and here was Dr saying no, it wasn't.
I know that prior to 1982 when Dr stepped down as president, lots of Dr's top men would at times talk him into things he really didn't want to do. At this BRC lunch I heard him complain of this. Dr's top men had talked him into committing the resources of the ministry for PFAL '77 being a video replacement for the '67 film class.
You could hear a pin drop in that room as Dr related all these things.
Then he said:
““We can still go forth with the Muncie plans and do PFAL'77 as a supplement for grads, but there will never be a replacement for the original film class.â€â€
With these words there was an audible sigh of relief from just about everybody in the lunchroom. I think most of us were keyed in on the first half of that sentence, and we only faintly heard the last half.
An interesting side note: the video tapes they made of PFAL'77 seem to have never surfaced. Just last year MG told me that the only tapes he still wanted for his collection were those PFAL'77 videos. After 1988 I went headlong into intense bootleg tape activity for a full ten years, but the PFAL'77 tapes seemed to have disappeared! Dr gave MG all sorts of access to tapes, more than anyone else, yet he doesn't have these.
So, Dr changed the course of the ship, right there in that lunchroom meeting. He also announced this change in a very dramatic and memorable way. In so doing he highlighted some key remarks of his about that original film class that are useful to our learning today. Specifically, CLONE CLASSES CAN'T CUT IT!
It’s only by mastering what God taught Dr and Dr taught us in writing that we will be able to serve God's Word to others. All attempts I’ve seen or heard of in splinter groups and in the big stump have had relatively minor results. Minor compared to the “good old days.â€
I could be wrong about this world-wide, but in my sphere of awareness, there has not been a single grad of any clone classes to rise up to the level of a WOW or a Corps candidate or a committed, serving clergy. All the big leaders are old PFAL grads, the clone grads are not inspired to drop everything and move the Word like Dr inspired his grads. If you know of ONE, please e-mail me..... in a couple years, and tell me your favorite clone grad is still cooking. I’d like to meet him or her.
Back to my story:
A few days later, after the lunchroom announcement, at the next Sunday night service, Dr repeated a few of those same remarks he had made in the BRC lunchroom. For one, he says on tape that re-teaching PFAL is impossible. Those remarks appear in a couple of places on the SNS tape from that evening mixed in with the announcements and in the teaching. It was a great SNS teaching. It is SNS tape #865 from June 12, 1977.
Two years after the lunchroom incident that same SNS teaching was presented in its final written form in the May/June 1979 Way Magazine. It is this magazine article, and it's connections to those lunchroom comments by Dr, and it's connections to Dr's final instructions to master PFAL that I want to bring to your attention. Next, I'll send the teaching.
The title of the teaching is "Masters of the Word."
Agape,
Mike
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Mark Sanguinetti
Mike:
Your last post is to long for me to read. I have told you politely that you should shorten them. My beliefs, unlike yours, are not set in concrete. I learn new things from the bible almost every day. When I learn new things that contradict what I have previously believed I change what I teach.
You are very fortunate that I shared my paper on the Lordship of Jesus Christ with you. Although, I worked a number of years on that one I am always open to reasonable feed back. I also wrote it with the intent that people can learn the knowledge that I have to offer in it with as little time and effort as possible. If you want me to read your posts you will have to shorten them just like everyone else. It is nothing personal. I am just to busy. However, thank you for at least addressing what you had to say to me at the beginning of your last post.
[This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on January 05, 2003 at 0:57.]
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Mike
Mark, I'm talking about the way I was treated above. Your head is so stuck in theology you can't see anything practical, like the adversary infecting yout family. Read the OTHER people's posts above, not mine. Read them and weep. The same thing that happened at twi is happening right here before your very eyse, and you want to talk SOUND BITE theology!
WAKE UP and SMELL THE SHILT!
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Mark Sanguinetti
Mike:
I have read posts on Grease Spot Cafe for many months now. I have helped a number of people here. Grease Spot Cafe is an internet community. It is a team. When I am able to help an individual I do so. However, every believer has their gift of service to the body of Christ. When I see an opportunity to help I do so. Others are able ministers also. Even people who don't call themselves Christians can be very helpful.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Mike:
Perhaps I missread your post above. Are you complaining about the way that you have been treated on Grease Spot Cafe? I and others don't mean to mistreat you. However, your posts perhaps seem judgemental to others. Perhaps, you should change your message. Perhaps, you are the one that needs to be more practical with your religious advice. Perhaps, you should try to help others instead of constantly preaching the word of Victor Wierwille to everyone.
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socks
Man, I don't know where to put this, so here goes.
There's been a lot of discussion about 1942, the snowstorm, and the promise to VP that if he'd teach it, God would teach the Word to him like it hadn't been known since long time gone. That's actually kind of neat taken on just face value...A message that has been lost and a requirement that to have it shown to you will be you have to share it with others.
Can anyone document where and when God told VP to put it in to a class and sell it for money?
-------------------
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TheEvan
socks...in a word, nope.
But it wasn't even his own invention. He "put together" (read 'copped') the class immediadetly upon returning from BG Leornard's in Calgary.
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WordWolf
Mike,
I've seen people been attacked online,
here & elsewhere.
I've been attacked online,
here & elsewhere.
You haven't been attacked.
The other posters believe you've provided
extensive evidence that you are trying to
subvert the body of Christ.
Considering that, they've been very nice to
you.
Unless you count disagreeing as 'persecution'.
Please stop playing 'poor persecuted one.'
Supposedly, your time is limited. However,
you've got plenty of time to complain. Whatever.
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Vertical Limit
Mike
Venom? No I don't think so. I've seen others get worse here and not cry about it like you do.
I suspect you post here because no one else would listen to what you are trying to promote.
Speaking of which I think vpw would even tell you to knock it off.
You've been given room for doubt that possibly what was said is not true.
What I think I see is a predator at work and I think maybe Abigail sees it too-maybe not-but you certainly picked the right doctrine for abuse to follow. You don't seem to see it.
Like mj412 said
"you know Mike to your honest glory you have helped many many see the rabid senseless mind set of those involved in TWI and just how consuming and pathetic the end can be."
So you are doing some good here.
Why would you want to worship vp when there is so much more to life. I think you are taking the easy way out. Not thinking for yourself and applying your own mind to understanding the scripture. Instead you take vp's word for it.
A lot of things he taught I agree with and a lot of things I don't.
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TheEvan
VL, you hit on something that deserves elaboration. For the most part a person who bases his knowledge of God & subsequent teaching on Wierwille will be limiting his audience mainly to those who think Wierwille is or was ever worth listening to. A small and shrinking group, wouldn't you say.
I refuse to listen to Wierwille, not because he never said anything true, but because his charater demands it. It's the same eason i wouldn't waste my time looking for truth with Jim Jones, David Koresh or the Baghwan Rajneesh.
Why would i waste my time with Wierwille when I can learn more from those of sterling character, who modeled a living faith? How about Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Augustine, Billy Graham?
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Lifted Up
I have seen some of those "streling character" people picked apart too. Sometimes it seems amazing what you can find with some simple web searches...not to mention some indirect personal experience. The point is, as for example I was trying to say on the Billy Graham thread, they (BG in this case), gain respect for what they speak and preach and teach about God, even if I do not agree with everything they do or understand.
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OCD #1
Mike's post to mj412 is VERY CREEPY!
about as creepy as his worship of VPeePee!
starting to sound like some Catmandoo stuff
Yo Mike......since departing from The Way, many of us are able to read between the lines and not ONLY what is written!
[This message was edited by OCD #1 on January 05, 2003 at 5:54.]
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Abigail
deleted by Abigail
[This message was edited by Abigail on January 09, 2003 at 3:13.]
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OCD #1
anybody that get's any real trouble from "Mike", let me know
i have access to those with the skills who could end his "mission" and destroy his "data"
not a threat, Mike, just a warning
:D-->
I have an EXTREME dislike for decievers and stalkers, as do those with the necessary skills!
I pray God will help you, Mike
next time your sweating your "hippie" a$$ off cleaning windows, look at the reflection and ask the man in the glass what he is REALLY doing with his life?
you're giving hippies a bad rep!
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OCD #1
right on! Abigail!
this guy has been full of crap from the start!
He has TOO much time
"idle hands are the devils workshop"
Mike reminds me of VP sitting around his "office" ...yup yup!
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Mike
Ok. I got some sleep.
I'm going to write Pawtucket and ask him how to handle all this.
Seems SOME of you folks really don't want me here, and now I'm getting warned of a threat.
Very twi-like atmosphere.
I noticed no one took me up on my suggestion for a poll. Afraid of the results? I'm not. But then again, OCD#1 has the skills to throw it off. Maybe an open ballot.
I appeal to Caesar.... I mean Andy Kaufmann. If I'm legitimately voted off I'll take my ball and glove and leave.
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