TheEvan wrote about 17 posts above on Jan 1, at 18:16 hours:
“Mike, one of your main premises, shared with Wierwille of course, is that the scriptures as we have them are notoriously unreliable. My, how convenient. They are unreliable and you need ME (hose-monster Wierwille) to tell you what theyr eally mean. This is the essence of it, isn't it?â€
No. First of all God gave the revelation to Dr who put it in plain English, thus freeing us plowboys of having to trust the scholarly world of Greek geeks.
TheEvan also wrote:
“First of all, Wierwille knew Nothing of what he spoke in Greek.
Second of all, Dr OFTEN admitted his lack of great Greek understanding. He had help from people and from God. This was never a secret.
TheEvan also wrote:
“Men like Tyndale (one of my personal heroes) gave their lives willingly so that "the ploughboy" could have the scriptures to understand for himself.â€
As for men like Tyndale and many others, I am extremely thankful. Mano of them their best and many profited, but not totally. Tyndale was near the beginning of a long Godly process, mixed in with setbacks from the devil, that finally ENDED with God’s revelations to Dr to put together what was in scattered pieces here and there. I also believe Dr got some standard, regular, classic, traditional type revelations. He also made some mistakes, but these were mostly purged by the time the ink was applied to the presses. I say “mostly’ because we were taught that “proofreaders’ oversights, and printers’ errors were to be expected, but not fatally.
TheEvan also wrote:
“This in an age when the scriptures were interpreted to the layman only by those qualified.â€
Sounds like today, in traditional churchianity. Sounds like what you WANT to be current: us non-Greek people totally dependant on Greek scholars.
Who do I choose? ONE of the reasons I easily choose to believe that it is Dr who God selected as middleman/spokesman is because he was so extremely successful in getting us ALL to SIT.
I’ve seen many charismatic churches where only a tiny fraction of the people SIT, and then it’s usually indecent and out of order, or they don’t know they have control over the on/off switch, or they do it without interpretation. Even if there were a group without these types of problems, you could bet money they would be crippled in some area: trinity, law, water baptism, praying to the dead, etc. Then, in some very, very rare cases, where ALL these problems were solved, such a group would be very small and never able to propagate their most pure doctrine. They’d die out long before WOW could become a reality.
The PFAL class was made available far and wide, and thousands were thus blessed. Yes, we died out, temporarily, but grads all over are getting sick of the past 20 years worth of broken cisterns, and are again seeking a solution. The answer is in coming back to this Word God taught Dr and Dr taught us.
TheEvan also wrote about 17 posts above on Jan 1, at 18:16 hours:
"Do you really believe there will ever be a man to do Jesus' works and greater in this world?"
I think the man who first spoke it. Jesus Christ, believed it, so I try my best to believe it too. This was a revelation from God to Jesus, so God “believed†it too.
However, the last word in your sentence is intriguing. That's why I'm posting this separate from the rest of my reply to your one post. From what I understand it IS available, yet we don't see anyone who has done it, not for two thousand years.
Dr often said that of this Word "someday SOMEBODY'S going to believe this." (my paraphrase) We also know that God waited patiently for 4000 years before somebody would believe, LITERALLY believe in the First Coming of His Son. Dr often longed out loud for someone who would finally LITERALLY believe what he was teaching. He stressed that mere agreeing, or mental assent was not what he longed for.
I see the great obstacles to us all IN THIS WORLD in believing this promise to do all that Jesus did. I also see the great hand of guidance God put into PFAL to bring us to the point of FINALLY believing to do this and greater.
This topic is verging on the great treasures someone yesterday challenged me to produce. This is it. As we master PFAL we are seeing great new dimensions to many aspects of the Return of Christ that we never, ever expected to see. There's a treasure in the unmastered PFAL books that teach us things about the Return that I want to get into. As we finish the God-breathed status of Dr's books, the next thing to ask ourselves is WHY? Why did God give these revelations to Dr at this time? What's so special about this time, above all other eras.
lindyhopper, a man many years your junior, has SO much more wisdom than you
count your blessings lindy
many others here with incredible insight, that's why i am reading your threads Mike, and thank you....you've helped solidify some things for me......not what you may have hoped, of course!
quote:And now we're participating in a conversation where one of the positions is that the "keys", and the conclusions reached by them, were given by revelation, and we know this because the guy who supposedly received the revelation told us he did.
LOL! I almost covered my monitor with coffee when I read that!
Great post, Oaks. It pretty much sums up my TWI experience.
Mike, I think I need to repeat what I said in my previous post. Perhaps, you did not catch this the first time.
"Well that is encouraging. So you realize that not all of what Victor Wierwille wrote and spoke was necessarily inspired or given by the holy spirit. You know you could have come to that conclusion without having to consult the PFAL book. Then I guess that means that we can't put Victor's writings with the same esteem as Paul's writings in the Church epistles."
Mike, I was clearly comparing Victor's writings in PFAL with Paul's writings in the seven church epistles. Victor's writings in PFAL are for the most part copied from other Christian teachers. Paul's writings on the other hand have a great deal of original thought and original spiritual wisdom and understanding. There is a huge difference between the writings of the two. It is like comparing the writings and explanation of someone who invented the silicon chip with the writings of someone who later found his writings and learned a small amount of what the original inventor developed and learned.
Mike, PFAL was a class. Nothing more and nothing less. It was not original God breathed scripture. Jesus gave gifts unto men. There are a number of teachers in the body of Christ. You are making a serious mistake in your biblical studies by limiting yourself to the works of one man, namely Victor Wierwille.
Mark, I read it, understood it, and disagreed with it. My limiting myself to just Dr is relatively recent, and it has been very invigorating, contrary to your theoretical, at-a-distance speculations about my life. I tried it your way for many years, and that method is over for me.
I started out thinking that Dr did not get this abundance of revelation. Many years of various types of evidence and guidance convinced me otherwise. The PFAL page 83 passage did not whittle down my expectations of the volume of Dr’s revelations, it limited it as it grew. It was not a conclusion as you make it out.
Therefore, I regarded the first part of your quote as not worthy of attention compared to the last sentence, which I focused on and tried to show you why I thought it was dead wrong.
You see, Mark, you are trusting in your own abilities. You trust in your ability to pick and choose from sources here, reject other things there. Much like the process that Dr did, except you do it with your 5-sense brain, Dr did it by believing God’s promise to him in 1942. That same promise is NOT addressed to me or to you or to anyone but Dr, because there’s no need for God to guide more than one into “My Word like it has not been known since the first century.†God did it once, and it’s done.
If a Bible student wants God’s Word this accurate, like it has not been known since the first century, yet rejects it when he comes across Dr’s written revelation of this abundance of truth, then he’d reject it if God revealed it to him directly. It shouldn’t matter HOW a student gets the revelation, whether via 5-senses reading of PFAL or by direct revelation. It’s the message that matters, not the delivery method. A true seeker will recognize God’s Word when he finally finds PFAL. He may get talked out of it, for a time, but if he keeps his desire for truth he will return.
Mark, I did the same thing: think I could be my own cosmic editor, and hash out the truth from my 5-senses ability. So have many over the centuries. No one has gone all the way with that attitude.
[This message was edited by Mike on January 02, 2003 at 9:30.]
yes that is exactly what happens people lose the ability to think they can be Gods creation and live a happy blessed life doing what makes them feel good.
oh my how selfish feelings and everything!!!
I believe in God and I think He knows who we are better than anyone and He puts it in the area of sinner .
Jesus christ was also a man created by God .
He knows the drauma and trauma we face everyday, yet God finished the plan to have us live forever.
Why does it get so complicated?
Because folks like mike what to be the top dog the best one ever it isnt anything but human .involved human competition of who is more educated, enlightened, powerful etc...
I believe this is the arena that Jesus Christ got erased out of the story in the way.
I think Jesus Christ is the key to being blessed today and tommorrow.
According to Mike, God made a covenant (promise) with VPW in 1942. This is based soley upon VPW's claim that God spoke to him and told him that, "I will teach you my Word like it hasn't been known since the first century, if you will teach it to others." Also according to Mike, the reason that he believes this is because "I, myself, was a beneficiary of the second half of the promise".
As a result of this promise the claim is made that PFAL is the Word of God, and mastery of it is the only way to know God. According to Mike, those who reject PFAL are rejecting God's Word as if it were given directly to them.
There were no witnesses present, VPW when VPW heard God's promise. This claim cannot be confirmed by what Mike calls five-senses knowledge. So this claim should be given no weight according to Mike's own methdology. To give it any credibility because it is in PFAL would make the argument circular. ie, It's true because it is in PFAL, and PFAL is true because God spoke to VPW. - Circular reasoning.
I think that few who took PFAL will deny that they benefited from it. I benefited from it. Yet the fact that I benefited, says nothing to actually confirm the veracity of VPW's claim of God's promise to him in 1942 or that PFAL is the Word of God. Why? Because it is like saying that because I benefited from the "revelations" of Ellen White or Anthony Robbins that they are therefore the Word of God. This is another logical fallacy. Furthermore "benefiting" is subjective.
Mike's theory also negates the scripture that many of us and most of Christiany believe to be reliable when "rightly-divided" as VPW taught - a teaching ot VPW's that Mike seems to have rejected. So this conviently absolves Mike from the duty and responsibility of verifying PFAL's teachings with scripture. In other words, according to Mike, the Bible can only be understood in light of PFAL - PFAL having the greater authority.
On top of all of this, Mike has encouraged everyone to reject historical data or eyewitness accounts that may paint VPW's moral character in a bad light, suggesting that these are all lies or that there are other explanations. Another logical fallacy. Honestly, I would not be suprised if Mike were to claim that VPW was the true Messiah and that the historical Jesus was a fraud. I did not say he said that - only that I would not be suprised.
Mike, some have suggested that you are mentally ill. Well I do not believe that at all. These folks are being nice. I think you are a deceiver and a pervert. If any spirit is guiding you, it is not of the true God. You are howling at the moon - a wolf.
I reject you and your message - It is evil. Consider yourself and your "gospel" rebuked - in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, God's Messiah.
Galatian's 1:8-9 ( KJV)
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
I've been reading this and all I can say is that I have nothing to say. Mike, if 27 years of studying PFAL have failed to reveal to you its internal inconsistencies and flat-out inaccuracies, then nothing I can say on this thread or any other will convince you otherwise.
You REJECT the Bible and EXALT PFAL. That makes you an idolater, period. You accuse me of being a prosecutor in the court of traditional Christianity, which proves to me you are as illiterate as you are delusional. I pity you.
I was away from my computer and could not reply to the snow storm post a kajillion posts ago. I will in due time. I'm just busy at the moment.
What are you claiming is God-breathed, or received by revelation, of VP's writings?
I think we can safely say that you don't think his grocery list, or his high school literature assignments or even love poems to Mrs. Wierwille are God-breathed! I don't believe anyone suggested that.
Are you saying anything that he wrote about the bible is God-breathed?
Are you saying anything he wrote after he started teaching PFAL?
Are you saying anything he wrote after PFAL was filmed?
Some other criteria that I have missed?
Whatever that criteria for "writings" turns out to be, you have claimed that VP's writings have the same authority as Paul's.
Just want to make sure that I understand what you're saying.
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
What weather reports? I have been staying out of this for some reasons, but I can't help being curious about that statement.
Just from a weather reporting point of view, a snow shower such as that in question would be unlikely to show up (or proof that it didn't happen) in any old weather reports, unless the point in question is precisely at an observing and reporting point for weather data. General conditions...the high and low temperature for that given day and whether or not there was precipitation...at even a very a nearby point...just will not tell you either way.
Lifted,
I'm just quoting part of your e-mail, for the sake of space.
Let's address the timeline of Wierwille's claim, and I'll ask people with a copy of The Way, Living in Love, to verify my facts and correct them if I am wrong.
Wierwille claims God spoke to him. He claims it snowed so heavily that he could not see the gas pumps that were so close to him. Then he claims that "approximately one month after" this incident, he starts his radio program.
We all know the date of the radio program, right? That's right, Oct. 3, 1942.
Do you want to tell me that a freak snowstorm in early September 1942 went unreported? That it sometimes snows in Ohio on the first day of school? Heavy enough that you can't see out your window?
Sorry, Wierwille lied.
I quote from Carol Van Drie:
quote:Well, I made a phone call to the Paulding County Library which is the county that Payne is in. I stayed on the long distance call quite awhile with the librarian, because she searched the microfiche files for any news whatsoever about any snowstorm happening in September. Such a freak storm would have had to been reported in the local papers. The fact is, this "miracle" never occurred. Dr. Wierwille lied.
I simply don't by the suggestion that a September snowstorm would be so localized that only Wierwille would notice it, and that no one would find this storm worthy of mention.
Wierwille lied about the snowstorm. Period.
And again, he didn't say it was a vision. A vision, we cannot disprove. September snowfall we can. And we have.
quote:Tyndale was near the beginning of a long Godly process, mixed in with setbacks from the devil, that finally ENDED with God’s revelations to Dr to put together what was in scattered pieces here
So, no further revelation is needed now that VP has "closed the book", huh?
quote:Hey, I don't mind if PART of the strategy God employed was to give Dr revelation to look at Bullinger (and not another researcher similar to Bullinger) and utilize this, this, and this passage, but NOT this passage. That's still legitimate revelation.
Part of the problem was that VP didn't always understand Bullinger. I could come up with a few examples if I was home with my Companion Bible, but I can recall one:
Bullinger came to a different conclusion than Wierwille did regarding the two geneologies of Jesus. Wierwille wrote that Matthew contained Mary's bloodline, putting forth that "Joseph, the husband of Mary" should have been translated, "Joseph, the father of Mary". He pointed out that the list was short a generation. Bullinger concluded that Matthew had Joseph's geneology and put forth something about Joseph being considered a legal son by Mary's father Heli because he married Mary and the missing generation being accounted for by David being listed twice. (take a moment to allow your head to stop spinning)
Both explanations always seemed a bit convoluted to me, but VP's seemed to make a little more sense.
Based on his belief that in Matthew, which documented the royal bloodline, was Joseph's geneology, (appdx 98)Bullinger makes a statement when discussing Jesus' brethren appdx 182). He discounts the theory that James, Joses, Simon, and Judas were Joseph's sons by a previous marriage (the Catholics used this one to maintain Mary's perpetual virginity) because, if Joseph had older sons, it would have invalidated Jesus' claim to the throne of David, since he would not have been the oldest son of Joseph.
VP, in his chapter in The Word's Way, "The Lord's Brethren", makes that same statement that Bullinger did about invalidating the claim to the davidic throne. But VP taught that Mary was of the royal bloodline of David through Solomon, not Joseph. What difference would it make if Joseph had previous children, as long as he was Mary's eldest?
He basically quotes Bullinger with attribution, without accepting Bullinger's premise.
Stuff like that, revelation or not?
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
[This message was edited by Oakspear on January 02, 2003 at 14:20.]
My original plans for today got snowed out, so I've spent the day reading Mike's threads here at Greasespot. Very thought provoking, to say the least.
I also, along with Oakspear, would like for you to clarify which writings of Wierwille you believe to be God-breathed, Mike. If I have understood the discussion so far, you said that some were, and some were not. When asked to indicate which were which, you mentioned "The Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India", "Victory in Christ(?)" and "The Gifts of the Spirit Class" as possibly representing material that was not God-breathed.
My question is this: do you believe that everything Wierwille committed to paper in the PFAL and collateral books is God-breathed?
Should I retract my objection to the snow story or not?
I have said all along that I do not have a copy of The Way: Living in Love. It has come to my attention that Wierwille's challenge to God was NOT (as I believed) "make it snow," but, rather, "Let me see it snow."
If that's the case, then God could have let HIM see it snow, and no one else (hence, a vision).
My problem is that a vision does little to verify a discussion with the Almighty, but since we're parsing words here, if one were to give VPW EVERY SINGLE benefit of the doubt, one would have to leave room for the "vision interpretation."
What's funny is, why didn't anyone (Mike) mention this before? It's not like I didn't ask.
Ok, so this particular derailment is back on track.
*******
Oldiesman: You mean, you don't believe what VPW wrote in Christians Should Be Prosperous?!?!
You and I gotta hang out and grab a beer one night.
********
Steve:
At the very least, Mike holds the PFAL book and Jesus Christ is Not God to be God-breathed. I come to this conclusion because in at least one case where they CLEARLY conflict with each other, Mike refers to the conflict as an "apparent contradiction" that needs to be resolved using the keys Wierwille taught for clearing up such matters in scripture.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on January 02, 2003 at 14:16.]
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T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
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Mike
TheEvan wrote about 17 posts above on Jan 1, at 18:16 hours:
“Mike, one of your main premises, shared with Wierwille of course, is that the scriptures as we have them are notoriously unreliable. My, how convenient. They are unreliable and you need ME (hose-monster Wierwille) to tell you what theyr eally mean. This is the essence of it, isn't it?â€
No. First of all God gave the revelation to Dr who put it in plain English, thus freeing us plowboys of having to trust the scholarly world of Greek geeks.
TheEvan also wrote:
“First of all, Wierwille knew Nothing of what he spoke in Greek.
Second of all, Dr OFTEN admitted his lack of great Greek understanding. He had help from people and from God. This was never a secret.
TheEvan also wrote:
“Men like Tyndale (one of my personal heroes) gave their lives willingly so that "the ploughboy" could have the scriptures to understand for himself.â€
As for men like Tyndale and many others, I am extremely thankful. Mano of them their best and many profited, but not totally. Tyndale was near the beginning of a long Godly process, mixed in with setbacks from the devil, that finally ENDED with God’s revelations to Dr to put together what was in scattered pieces here and there. I also believe Dr got some standard, regular, classic, traditional type revelations. He also made some mistakes, but these were mostly purged by the time the ink was applied to the presses. I say “mostly’ because we were taught that “proofreaders’ oversights, and printers’ errors were to be expected, but not fatally.
TheEvan also wrote:
“This in an age when the scriptures were interpreted to the layman only by those qualified.â€
Sounds like today, in traditional churchianity. Sounds like what you WANT to be current: us non-Greek people totally dependant on Greek scholars.
Who do I choose? ONE of the reasons I easily choose to believe that it is Dr who God selected as middleman/spokesman is because he was so extremely successful in getting us ALL to SIT.
I’ve seen many charismatic churches where only a tiny fraction of the people SIT, and then it’s usually indecent and out of order, or they don’t know they have control over the on/off switch, or they do it without interpretation. Even if there were a group without these types of problems, you could bet money they would be crippled in some area: trinity, law, water baptism, praying to the dead, etc. Then, in some very, very rare cases, where ALL these problems were solved, such a group would be very small and never able to propagate their most pure doctrine. They’d die out long before WOW could become a reality.
The PFAL class was made available far and wide, and thousands were thus blessed. Yes, we died out, temporarily, but grads all over are getting sick of the past 20 years worth of broken cisterns, and are again seeking a solution. The answer is in coming back to this Word God taught Dr and Dr taught us.
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A la prochaine
6 Words Mike ...
Too much time on your hands.
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OCD #1
MIKE!! all i wanna know is ...Have YOU mastered the bate?
it's a good alternative to these public ejaculations
The truth, Mike!!! DO YOU MASTURBATE???
i just can't follow anybody that doesn't or lies about it!
[This message was edited by OCD #1 on January 02, 2003 at 1:14.]
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OCD #1
LMAO!!
i was gonna say that and decided to expound!!
i was recieving revelation and transcribing it as you were posting!
;)-->
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Mike
TheEvan also wrote about 17 posts above on Jan 1, at 18:16 hours:
"Do you really believe there will ever be a man to do Jesus' works and greater in this world?"
I think the man who first spoke it. Jesus Christ, believed it, so I try my best to believe it too. This was a revelation from God to Jesus, so God “believed†it too.
However, the last word in your sentence is intriguing. That's why I'm posting this separate from the rest of my reply to your one post. From what I understand it IS available, yet we don't see anyone who has done it, not for two thousand years.
Dr often said that of this Word "someday SOMEBODY'S going to believe this." (my paraphrase) We also know that God waited patiently for 4000 years before somebody would believe, LITERALLY believe in the First Coming of His Son. Dr often longed out loud for someone who would finally LITERALLY believe what he was teaching. He stressed that mere agreeing, or mental assent was not what he longed for.
I see the great obstacles to us all IN THIS WORLD in believing this promise to do all that Jesus did. I also see the great hand of guidance God put into PFAL to bring us to the point of FINALLY believing to do this and greater.
This topic is verging on the great treasures someone yesterday challenged me to produce. This is it. As we master PFAL we are seeing great new dimensions to many aspects of the Return of Christ that we never, ever expected to see. There's a treasure in the unmastered PFAL books that teach us things about the Return that I want to get into. As we finish the God-breathed status of Dr's books, the next thing to ask ourselves is WHY? Why did God give these revelations to Dr at this time? What's so special about this time, above all other eras.
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OCD #1
Mike you should be ashamed
lindyhopper, a man many years your junior, has SO much more wisdom than you
count your blessings lindy
many others here with incredible insight, that's why i am reading your threads Mike, and thank you....you've helped solidify some things for me......not what you may have hoped, of course!
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JesseJoe
Oakspear wrote January 01, 2003 22:06,
LOL! I almost covered my monitor with coffee when I read that!
Great post, Oaks. It pretty much sums up my TWI experience.
Jesse
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OCD #1
my last post was at 4:20
Mike, I just realized you're counting back the number of posts.....it confused me for a few
you are definitely committed ......or should be!
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Mark Sanguinetti
Mike, I think I need to repeat what I said in my previous post. Perhaps, you did not catch this the first time.
"Well that is encouraging. So you realize that not all of what Victor Wierwille wrote and spoke was necessarily inspired or given by the holy spirit. You know you could have come to that conclusion without having to consult the PFAL book. Then I guess that means that we can't put Victor's writings with the same esteem as Paul's writings in the Church epistles."
Mike, I was clearly comparing Victor's writings in PFAL with Paul's writings in the seven church epistles. Victor's writings in PFAL are for the most part copied from other Christian teachers. Paul's writings on the other hand have a great deal of original thought and original spiritual wisdom and understanding. There is a huge difference between the writings of the two. It is like comparing the writings and explanation of someone who invented the silicon chip with the writings of someone who later found his writings and learned a small amount of what the original inventor developed and learned.
Mike, PFAL was a class. Nothing more and nothing less. It was not original God breathed scripture. Jesus gave gifts unto men. There are a number of teachers in the body of Christ. You are making a serious mistake in your biblical studies by limiting yourself to the works of one man, namely Victor Wierwille.
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Mike
Mark, I read it, understood it, and disagreed with it. My limiting myself to just Dr is relatively recent, and it has been very invigorating, contrary to your theoretical, at-a-distance speculations about my life. I tried it your way for many years, and that method is over for me.
I started out thinking that Dr did not get this abundance of revelation. Many years of various types of evidence and guidance convinced me otherwise. The PFAL page 83 passage did not whittle down my expectations of the volume of Dr’s revelations, it limited it as it grew. It was not a conclusion as you make it out.
Therefore, I regarded the first part of your quote as not worthy of attention compared to the last sentence, which I focused on and tried to show you why I thought it was dead wrong.
You see, Mark, you are trusting in your own abilities. You trust in your ability to pick and choose from sources here, reject other things there. Much like the process that Dr did, except you do it with your 5-sense brain, Dr did it by believing God’s promise to him in 1942. That same promise is NOT addressed to me or to you or to anyone but Dr, because there’s no need for God to guide more than one into “My Word like it has not been known since the first century.†God did it once, and it’s done.
If a Bible student wants God’s Word this accurate, like it has not been known since the first century, yet rejects it when he comes across Dr’s written revelation of this abundance of truth, then he’d reject it if God revealed it to him directly. It shouldn’t matter HOW a student gets the revelation, whether via 5-senses reading of PFAL or by direct revelation. It’s the message that matters, not the delivery method. A true seeker will recognize God’s Word when he finally finds PFAL. He may get talked out of it, for a time, but if he keeps his desire for truth he will return.
Mark, I did the same thing: think I could be my own cosmic editor, and hash out the truth from my 5-senses ability. So have many over the centuries. No one has gone all the way with that attitude.
[This message was edited by Mike on January 02, 2003 at 9:30.]
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Vertical Limit
vpw like you magnified his work above the scripture.
Does your walk glorify God?
And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done
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Abigail
"deleted by Abigail
[This message was edited by Abigail on January 09, 2003 at 3:16.]
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mj412
Mike
In the last sentence of the above post you said
"No one has gone all the way with that attitude".
Where do you think your going Mike?
Abigail
yes that is exactly what happens people lose the ability to think they can be Gods creation and live a happy blessed life doing what makes them feel good.
oh my how selfish feelings and everything!!!
I believe in God and I think He knows who we are better than anyone and He puts it in the area of sinner .
Jesus christ was also a man created by God .
He knows the drauma and trauma we face everyday, yet God finished the plan to have us live forever.
Why does it get so complicated?
Because folks like mike what to be the top dog the best one ever it isnt anything but human .involved human competition of who is more educated, enlightened, powerful etc...
I believe this is the arena that Jesus Christ got erased out of the story in the way.
I think Jesus Christ is the key to being blessed today and tommorrow.
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Goey
Some Thoughts
According to Mike, God made a covenant (promise) with VPW in 1942. This is based soley upon VPW's claim that God spoke to him and told him that, "I will teach you my Word like it hasn't been known since the first century, if you will teach it to others." Also according to Mike, the reason that he believes this is because "I, myself, was a beneficiary of the second half of the promise".
As a result of this promise the claim is made that PFAL is the Word of God, and mastery of it is the only way to know God. According to Mike, those who reject PFAL are rejecting God's Word as if it were given directly to them.
There were no witnesses present, VPW when VPW heard God's promise. This claim cannot be confirmed by what Mike calls five-senses knowledge. So this claim should be given no weight according to Mike's own methdology. To give it any credibility because it is in PFAL would make the argument circular. ie, It's true because it is in PFAL, and PFAL is true because God spoke to VPW. - Circular reasoning.
I think that few who took PFAL will deny that they benefited from it. I benefited from it. Yet the fact that I benefited, says nothing to actually confirm the veracity of VPW's claim of God's promise to him in 1942 or that PFAL is the Word of God. Why? Because it is like saying that because I benefited from the "revelations" of Ellen White or Anthony Robbins that they are therefore the Word of God. This is another logical fallacy. Furthermore "benefiting" is subjective.
Mike's theory also negates the scripture that many of us and most of Christiany believe to be reliable when "rightly-divided" as VPW taught - a teaching ot VPW's that Mike seems to have rejected. So this conviently absolves Mike from the duty and responsibility of verifying PFAL's teachings with scripture. In other words, according to Mike, the Bible can only be understood in light of PFAL - PFAL having the greater authority.
On top of all of this, Mike has encouraged everyone to reject historical data or eyewitness accounts that may paint VPW's moral character in a bad light, suggesting that these are all lies or that there are other explanations. Another logical fallacy. Honestly, I would not be suprised if Mike were to claim that VPW was the true Messiah and that the historical Jesus was a fraud. I did not say he said that - only that I would not be suprised.
Mike, some have suggested that you are mentally ill. Well I do not believe that at all. These folks are being nice. I think you are a deceiver and a pervert. If any spirit is guiding you, it is not of the true God. You are howling at the moon - a wolf.
I reject you and your message - It is evil. Consider yourself and your "gospel" rebuked - in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, God's Messiah.
Galatian's 1:8-9 ( KJV)
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Get it ?
Goey
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excathedra
mike, was that mantle really yours?
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Raf
I've been reading this and all I can say is that I have nothing to say. Mike, if 27 years of studying PFAL have failed to reveal to you its internal inconsistencies and flat-out inaccuracies, then nothing I can say on this thread or any other will convince you otherwise.
You REJECT the Bible and EXALT PFAL. That makes you an idolater, period. You accuse me of being a prosecutor in the court of traditional Christianity, which proves to me you are as illiterate as you are delusional. I pity you.
I was away from my computer and could not reply to the snow storm post a kajillion posts ago. I will in due time. I'm just busy at the moment.
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DATWAY
Anyone look at Mikes Email (IXPRES.COM) Come on LOY you can do better than that wimp.
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Oakspear
Mike:
Please clarify for me if you can:
What are you claiming is God-breathed, or received by revelation, of VP's writings?
I think we can safely say that you don't think his grocery list, or his high school literature assignments or even love poems to Mrs. Wierwille are God-breathed! I don't believe anyone suggested that.
Whatever that criteria for "writings" turns out to be, you have claimed that VP's writings have the same authority as Paul's.
Just want to make sure that I understand what you're saying.
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
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Raf
Lifted,
I'm just quoting part of your e-mail, for the sake of space.
Let's address the timeline of Wierwille's claim, and I'll ask people with a copy of The Way, Living in Love, to verify my facts and correct them if I am wrong.
Wierwille claims God spoke to him. He claims it snowed so heavily that he could not see the gas pumps that were so close to him. Then he claims that "approximately one month after" this incident, he starts his radio program.
We all know the date of the radio program, right? That's right, Oct. 3, 1942.
Do you want to tell me that a freak snowstorm in early September 1942 went unreported? That it sometimes snows in Ohio on the first day of school? Heavy enough that you can't see out your window?
Sorry, Wierwille lied.
I quote from Carol Van Drie:
I simply don't by the suggestion that a September snowstorm would be so localized that only Wierwille would notice it, and that no one would find this storm worthy of mention.
Wierwille lied about the snowstorm. Period.
And again, he didn't say it was a vision. A vision, we cannot disprove. September snowfall we can. And we have.
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Oakspear
Bullinger came to a different conclusion than Wierwille did regarding the two geneologies of Jesus. Wierwille wrote that Matthew contained Mary's bloodline, putting forth that "Joseph, the husband of Mary" should have been translated, "Joseph, the father of Mary". He pointed out that the list was short a generation. Bullinger concluded that Matthew had Joseph's geneology and put forth something about Joseph being considered a legal son by Mary's father Heli because he married Mary and the missing generation being accounted for by David being listed twice. (take a moment to allow your head to stop spinning)
Both explanations always seemed a bit convoluted to me, but VP's seemed to make a little more sense.
Based on his belief that in Matthew, which documented the royal bloodline, was Joseph's geneology, (appdx 98)Bullinger makes a statement when discussing Jesus' brethren appdx 182). He discounts the theory that James, Joses, Simon, and Judas were Joseph's sons by a previous marriage (the Catholics used this one to maintain Mary's perpetual virginity) because, if Joseph had older sons, it would have invalidated Jesus' claim to the throne of David, since he would not have been the oldest son of Joseph.
VP, in his chapter in The Word's Way, "The Lord's Brethren", makes that same statement that Bullinger did about invalidating the claim to the davidic throne. But VP taught that Mary was of the royal bloodline of David through Solomon, not Joseph. What difference would it make if Joseph had previous children, as long as he was Mary's eldest?
He basically quotes Bullinger with attribution, without accepting Bullinger's premise.
Stuff like that, revelation or not?
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
[This message was edited by Oakspear on January 02, 2003 at 14:20.]
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Steve Lortz
My original plans for today got snowed out, so I've spent the day reading Mike's threads here at Greasespot. Very thought provoking, to say the least.
I also, along with Oakspear, would like for you to clarify which writings of Wierwille you believe to be God-breathed, Mike. If I have understood the discussion so far, you said that some were, and some were not. When asked to indicate which were which, you mentioned "The Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India", "Victory in Christ(?)" and "The Gifts of the Spirit Class" as possibly representing material that was not God-breathed.
My question is this: do you believe that everything Wierwille committed to paper in the PFAL and collateral books is God-breathed?
Love,
Stev
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oldiesman
Mike,
Please don't say "Christians Believe The Preposterous" is God-Breathed.
I have serious issues with that...
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Raf
Hmmm. I'll leave this for others to decide:
Should I retract my objection to the snow story or not?
I have said all along that I do not have a copy of The Way: Living in Love. It has come to my attention that Wierwille's challenge to God was NOT (as I believed) "make it snow," but, rather, "Let me see it snow."
If that's the case, then God could have let HIM see it snow, and no one else (hence, a vision).
My problem is that a vision does little to verify a discussion with the Almighty, but since we're parsing words here, if one were to give VPW EVERY SINGLE benefit of the doubt, one would have to leave room for the "vision interpretation."
What's funny is, why didn't anyone (Mike) mention this before? It's not like I didn't ask.
Ok, so this particular derailment is back on track.
*******
Oldiesman: You mean, you don't believe what VPW wrote in Christians Should Be Prosperous?!?!
You and I gotta hang out and grab a beer one night.
********
Steve:
At the very least, Mike holds the PFAL book and Jesus Christ is Not God to be God-breathed. I come to this conclusion because in at least one case where they CLEARLY conflict with each other, Mike refers to the conflict as an "apparent contradiction" that needs to be resolved using the keys Wierwille taught for clearing up such matters in scripture.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on January 02, 2003 at 14:16.]
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lindyhopper
a few hundred posts ago....
OCD, Thank you. I think your #1.
...and I'm here with stupid as well. I think we all are here on this post.
As always, no offence, just kidding Mikey.
I remain your biggest fan.
Be Like Mike!
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