How do you help and assist those who are less fortunate than you, I mean outside of quoting scriptures and other general PFAL type stuff?
Have you fed any who are poor, housed any who are homeless, cared for any that may be dying?
It is good to see that you have the following: " My own life is wonderful: great family, fellowship ,great job. good surf and a God whose Word I understand. Love Ya' all"
Glad you are having a good life. Mine, likewise is very good, so why should I fix it if it isn't broken? Why should I change the way I am living my life now and master PFAL, if I am happy with my life the way it is?
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
"I see a greater risk in placing my bet on a churchianity tradition that has failed for 2000 years to produce even ONE Christian who can do ALL the things Jesus Christ did and greater, ..."
Have you actually looked? Or have you just taken VPW's word for it?
Oh and, how has VPW himself done all these things? Did all that Jesus Christ did and greater, that is.
Oh and since you bring up the point of the part of VPW receiving revelation from God that is the part that is God Breathed in what he wrote and spoke, ... well, can't the same thing be said about any other preacher/teacher/minister/believer who have served God over the years? Don't they have parts of what they wrote/spoke that were "given by inspiration of God", ie., by revelation?
So what makes V.P. Wierwille so special above them that his words are so important to be mastered and not the words of anybody else?
And how much "in tatters" are the words of God have VPW made because of his ((ahem)) '5 senses knowledge', hmmm?
Well. I did not mean to start a firestorm. "Like Mike" , several years ago I decided to apply the principals taught in the PFAL series such as "read what is written" (remember throughly vs. thoroughly);to whom it is written(paying attention to such things as personal pronouns, etc)where it is used before( tracing words through the series). My primary objective was to not do "pre-concieved research but instead to see what it actually said( which I never took the time to do in the Corps training). I was intrigued by what I saw and actually read quite a few statements that I had never seen before although they were always right there in the books.This has opened my eyes to some great understanding concerning "The Word of God" This is what brings me to realize that there is a difference between the five senses understanding and the spiritual understanding. So, I am not attempting to tell anybody what they should do,I would like to challenge people to try mastering The PFAL series this way and you will be surprised at what you will "see". If this does not interest you,then please disregard this posting .- God Bless ya"
Look into somebody's eyes, in there you may find a "soul" perhaps someone to hold.
Jesus was and is the Christ, and though I personally was not there in his time on earth, I would have to say that he looked (gazed) into the eyes of them he spoke with.
Not a passing glance or a "look over" that VP did so well. Jesus saw because he looked, not at the flesh and the inherent sin of it, he saw that there was sin in the flesh and tried to heal it. He gave his life for our sin and in doing so God was able through Christ to make recompense for the evil that Satan holds dear.
[This message was edited by firebee on January 01, 2003 at 18:10.]
Mike, one of your main premises, shared with Wierwille of course, is that the scriptures as we have them are notoriously unreliable. My, how convenient. They are unreliable and you need ME (hose-monster Wierwille) to tell you what theyr eally mean. This is the essence of it, isn't it?
First of all, Wierwille knew Nothing of what he spoke in Greek. And I will venture respectfully, neither do you. or you would have a great deal more respect for the Recieved text.
Men like Tyndale (one of my personal heroes) gave their lives willingly so that "the ploughboy" could have the scriptures to understand for himself. This in an age when the scriptures were interpreted to the layman only by those qualified. Wierwille and his text monsters have labored furiously to take us back to those dark days. Days when the common man could not read the Bible in his own language and understand for himself its clear & living message. When he needed to go to a professional MOG to tell him what it REALLY means.
My teenaged children will come away with truth merely by reading the KJV bible with a meek and open heart while you stumble at textual criticism, of which you know little to nothing.
Do you really believe there will ever be a man to do Jesus' works and greater in this world?
mike has been doing this for years personly I think he is un house arrest with a bracelet on his foot.
and he brings out the clones..... cy this.
Master what exactly? what the heck does that mean to master something? like we got a slave mentality
and yes cy you cetainly are like alot of the social worker I know holier than anyone and pushing blame with your answers for all of creation.
did ya get fired or just asked to leave?
WHY mike why do you think it is important for someone to master PFAL?
I know you and I do not give a rats *** who eles does your a man driven into a confused state by much more than what the way offered you are nuts have been nuts and you need attention like a disease.
Master this Mike
you may have the right to print here and I may get into trouble for making a personal attack
but call a spade a spade here
Im telling GS this guy has been doing this for a long time and plays alot of games with his lines of stuff and believe me you have not heard the half of it.
He is the reason I went to GS.
tell them mike or I will , I kept alot of the garbage you sent me how about the fact only those who master PFAL will have eternal life etc...
Well Mike. Is that true? Did you tell MJ12 that "only those who master PFAL will have eternal life?"
And really Mike, for argument's sake let's say that Victor Wierwille was a good bible teacher. Don't you think there are other good bible teachers that we can also learn from? Also in all the times you were in TWI didn't you notice that Victor Wierwille did not have a knowledge of Greek or Hebrew, the languages of the biblical texts? Then if he did not have a knowledge of Greek or Hebrew then why should we need his written works for textual clarifications?
One of the reasons that Paul wrote as many epistles as he did is because he was well educated. He could read and write. Yes, he also had a great heart and love for the Lord Jesus Christ, but he was also heads above the other apostles as far as education. Victor Wierwille was not very well educated regarding the biblical languages. However, he may have been a good preacher. This is possible, but he was not educated enough to make Greek textual clarifications. E.W. Bullinger on the other hand was. He even had a Greek lexicon. Through E.W. Bullinger and others Wierwille got all his best biblical material. This has been documented a number of times. Additionally, Paul said that he got his writings by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Do you see the difference?
Several paragraphs above you can find a little explanation of how Dr got
what he got on dechomai and lombano. He did not track down this information,
he got it by revelation. This information can't be figured out by scholars
or by 5-senses methods. Scholars who are meek can "quietly accept that which
is untraceable and cannot be explored or found out."
These appendixes have been added to this volume for those
who desire to search out and explore the deeper reason for the
way in which God has set truth in perfect order in His Word.
We desire this deeper, spiritual understanding of God's Word. A 5-senses
understanding is too limited to defeat the adversary. By meekly searching
out and systematically mastering the treasure God has provided in English
for us we will see "many difficulties disappear." We have the pure Word of God.
Agape,
Mike
HELLO GREASESPOT
these last two posts are copies of just some of the garbage Mike has sent me .
So he also believes DR. was getting revelation for his teachings in answer to your question about Pauls teaching in Mikes eyes Weirwille was a apostle.
Thank you Mike (via this latest post thru mj412), you have clarified a lot more what you are trying to communicate.
And now I am even more certain that what you are communicating is utter hogwash, and that you have indeed put PFAL above the Bible as the Word of God. And that what Raf said is right.
Apparently, you are quoting Mike from a letter written to you. You should clarify this in your post. You can edit your post and click the "..." icon. Thanks.
It's so great that we have examples of fanatical Wierwillism being posted here. Should make anybody who has checked this site after being witnessed to think twice.
Thanks for the info MJ
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
Yea, we are all learning. However, if you ever want to edit one of yours posts after you are logged in, you can click the pencil eraser at the bottom of one of your posts. Then your post will show up again. You can edit it and then click the Post Now button again. Pretty cool really. Don't be afraid to experiment with it. And by all means if you have a problem be sure to ask Garth. I think he might do web sites for a living. You can ask me also and I will try to figure it out.
Oakspear- Thank you for the dictionary def. I am sure that you are correct. My point,though, is that sometimes I have a tendency to read over things without paying close attention to what it says.I am sure that I am not alone in that respect. Hey!- I used to live in Omaha- sure was cold in the winter.
quote:My point,though, is that sometimes I have a tendency to read over things without paying close attention to what it says.I am sure that I am not alone in that respect.
No you're not alone. :D-->
As I recall, the point Wierwille was trying to make in the throughly/thoroughly example was to read what was written. I'm sure countless people looked at the word throughly and read thoroughly. If he would have stuck with that instead of giving an incorrect definition of throughly, he'd have been fine.
Through most of PFAL we are told that we would be taught keys to unlock the doors of the bible; that we would no longer have to depend on what man told us, we could compare what preachers and scholars said with what the bible actually said.
I thought that was pretty cool, it was part of what attracted me to twi in the first place.
What was practiced was in reality somewhat different: instead of working the Word on our own, Wierwille worked the Word and told us what he came up with. Any answers different than Wierwille's were considered wrong, no matter that we used the Keys" as well.
So, instead of utilizing the "keys to unlock the doors", we acted pretty much like the people in the denomination did, letting our leaders tell us what the bible said.
Oh sure, we were told that the denominational leaders didn't go to the Word, but I was amazed over the years at the number of ministers who "worked the Word" as thoroughly as Wiewrwille did, using some of the same verses and coming to different conclusions.
And now we're participating in a conversation where one of the positions is that the "keys", and the conclusions reached by them, were given by revelation, and we know this because the guy who supposedly received the revelation told us he did.
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
Mark Sanguinetti wrote about 40 posts above at 3:30am:
"Well that is encouraging. So you realize that not all of what Victor Wierwille wrote and spoke was necessarily inspired or given by the holy spirit... Then I guess that means that we can't put Victor's writings with the same esteem as Paul's writings in the Church epistles."
Mark, Let's examine your conclusion here. You're comparing ALL of VPW's writings with only SOME of Paul's writings, the ones that have survived the centuries.
There may very well have been writings of Paul, earlier in his ministry that were quite flawed. The surviving epistles came relatively late in his ministry, I THINK. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Even if I am wrong I know FOR SURE that any writings Paul did prior to meeting his master on the road to Damascus were not God-breathed, like his term papers for Gamaliel. Same with Dr's NON-God-breathed writings.
I remember Dr mentioning on two separate occasions that if he had his way we would never have a chance to read "The Dilemma of the Foreign Missions in India" and then he said much the same thing about a book from around 1952 called something like "Victory in Christ." I also remember seeing a class photo from a very early PFAL class before it had that name. There was a large banner stretched behind all the students proclaiming "The Gifts of the Spirit Class."
Both Paul and Dr wrote letters and memos and notes and grocery lists or such like that were of their own natural 5-senses understanding. I can say with total certainty that "Not all that Paul wrote was necessarily God-breathed." Thank God for those writings of his that WERE God breathed. Thank God for Dr's God-breathed writings as well. The former got relatively lost or buried or tattered. The later we have in relatively pristine pure form. Thank God!
Tell me honestly, if this were true, just IF it really is true.... can you imagine this? What if it were true that we were given not only a great way to cut through a lot of the 'tatterations" of Paul's writings with the PFAL keys, but also as a SURPRISE bonus, God slipped FRESH new perfect writings into our bookcases that are His reformatting of His own perfect Word? Come on now, wouldn't that be WONDERFUL!? If it were true? I'm not asking you to believe it. I'm asking you to IMAGINE it. Are you willing to even consider it long enough to see how wonderful it would be? I can.
Mark also wrote:
"Mike, in past years I studied Wierwille's written works very vigorously. You should see my bible. There are a few sections of scripture in my old bible that are filled with notes like you probably have never seen before."
The standard of mastery that Dr laid out in the tape/print record is very explicit. I'm saving that for a fresh thread later. Here's a preview from segment 5 of the '79 Advanced Class:
I have set for our people, and it's set in the book on
"Receiving the Holy Spirit Today," and people, when you
reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost
to quote this line for line. You should have mastered
this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class.
If you haven't, you better get busy and do it - work it
to where you understand the Word of God in every facet,
in every way of it's utilization regarding the holy
spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in
and out. But I've discovered as I've worked among my
people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class,
there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.
Mark also wrote:
"In studying and writing these notes I found that much of the technical biblical work of VP Wierwille actually came from E.W. Bullinger."
Hey, I don't mind if PART of the strategy God employed was to give Dr revelation to look at Bullinger (and not another researcher similar to Bullinger) and utilize this, this, and this passage, but NOT this passage. That's still legitimate revelation.
Written revelation doesn't have to be all divine dictation. In fact, in the Thessalonians University of Life, Dr TWICE mentions in covering verse 1:1 for both of these epistles, that there is a reason why there are three names mentioned as authors: Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. At these two points Dr teaches that written revelation is usually NOT divine dictation, but first the revelation to Paul was discussed between the three, and then later put into written form. In I Peter 1:20-21 we see the WRITTEN scripture mentioned in verse 20 as coming from a process where (next verse) holy men of God SPAKE.
It's easy to see that God could have utilized Bullinger’s work to get Dr to the point of hearing a revelation of “Vic, Bullinger got it right here.†Additionally, these selected passages of Bullinger may have ALSO been given by revelation, or maybe only portions of them. There's lots of permutations that can be involved.
To simply cite similarities, even CLOSE similarities between Dr's and Bullinger's writings on some points in no way disqualifies Dr's from being given by revelation.
Then Mark wrote:
"...and just go to the scriptures and let them speak for themselves."
We don't HAVE those scriptures to go to Mark, only scholar processed regurgitations. As I mentioned in my post "Feelings" these approximations of the original scriptures are ESSENTIAL for the beginning student, but if a PFAL student wants to go farther on to "all nine all the time" these approximations wont do it. They haven't worked for that kind the power, the full power of all the things Jesus Christ did, for anyone in 2000 years.
Unfortunately, it's also true that no PFAL grads have done it either. But not all the chips are in yet. PFAL is a very recent revelation. We grads have been stalled for some 20 years now. Hardly any PFAL grads ever heard of Dr's dying last words, his final instructions to master the PFAL books. Even the grads who did hear have been talked out of them, or have flagrantly disobeyed them, or have only done some dabbling. Some dabbled more than others, but NONE have mastered it according to Dr's use of the word "master." Soon we can see more of Dr's previous usages of this word and see what he meant by "master" better. From Dr's Advanced Class quote above, we see in the last sentence that in 1979 "even ALL the grads of the Advanced Class†had not mastered the "holy Spirit" book enough, even those who had lots of Bible notes and who had "studied Wierwille's written works very vigorously." It's both vigor AND rigor that are needed.
[This message was edited by Mike on January 02, 2003 at 0:02.]
[This message was edited by Mike on January 02, 2003 at 0:03.]
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T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
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firebee
Cy
Glad to hear all is peachy keen with you.
How do you help and assist those who are less fortunate than you, I mean outside of quoting scriptures and other general PFAL type stuff?
Have you fed any who are poor, housed any who are homeless, cared for any that may be dying?
It is good to see that you have the following: " My own life is wonderful: great family, fellowship ,great job. good surf and a God whose Word I understand. Love Ya' all"
God Bless indeed
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cyasurfin
firebee- yep, been there, done that-used to be a social worker-cya!
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Abigail
Cya,
Glad you are having a good life. Mine, likewise is very good, so why should I fix it if it isn't broken? Why should I change the way I am living my life now and master PFAL, if I am happy with my life the way it is?
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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firebee
CYA
been there, done that-used to be a social worker
Have you ever looked into a persons eyes, really looked deep inside? Have you felt the shame and sorrow of their torment?
Or the utter joy of their success?
[This message was edited by firebee on January 01, 2003 at 17:05.]
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GarthP2000
Mike,
"I see a greater risk in placing my bet on a churchianity tradition that has failed for 2000 years to produce even ONE Christian who can do ALL the things Jesus Christ did and greater, ..."
Have you actually looked? Or have you just taken VPW's word for it?
Oh and, how has VPW himself done all these things? Did all that Jesus Christ did and greater, that is.
Oh and since you bring up the point of the part of VPW receiving revelation from God that is the part that is God Breathed in what he wrote and spoke, ... well, can't the same thing be said about any other preacher/teacher/minister/believer who have served God over the years? Don't they have parts of what they wrote/spoke that were "given by inspiration of God", ie., by revelation?
So what makes V.P. Wierwille so special above them that his words are so important to be mastered and not the words of anybody else?
And how much "in tatters" are the words of God have VPW made because of his ((ahem)) '5 senses knowledge', hmmm?
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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cyasurfin
Well. I did not mean to start a firestorm. "Like Mike" , several years ago I decided to apply the principals taught in the PFAL series such as "read what is written" (remember throughly vs. thoroughly);to whom it is written(paying attention to such things as personal pronouns, etc)where it is used before( tracing words through the series). My primary objective was to not do "pre-concieved research but instead to see what it actually said( which I never took the time to do in the Corps training). I was intrigued by what I saw and actually read quite a few statements that I had never seen before although they were always right there in the books.This has opened my eyes to some great understanding concerning "The Word of God" This is what brings me to realize that there is a difference between the five senses understanding and the spiritual understanding. So, I am not attempting to tell anybody what they should do,I would like to challenge people to try mastering The PFAL series this way and you will be surprised at what you will "see". If this does not interest you,then please disregard this posting .- God Bless ya"
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firebee
Look into somebody's eyes, in there you may find a "soul" perhaps someone to hold.
Jesus was and is the Christ, and though I personally was not there in his time on earth, I would have to say that he looked (gazed) into the eyes of them he spoke with.
Not a passing glance or a "look over" that VP did so well. Jesus saw because he looked, not at the flesh and the inherent sin of it, he saw that there was sin in the flesh and tried to heal it. He gave his life for our sin and in doing so God was able through Christ to make recompense for the evil that Satan holds dear.
[This message was edited by firebee on January 01, 2003 at 18:10.]
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TheEvan
Mike, one of your main premises, shared with Wierwille of course, is that the scriptures as we have them are notoriously unreliable. My, how convenient. They are unreliable and you need ME (hose-monster Wierwille) to tell you what theyr eally mean. This is the essence of it, isn't it?
First of all, Wierwille knew Nothing of what he spoke in Greek. And I will venture respectfully, neither do you. or you would have a great deal more respect for the Recieved text.
Men like Tyndale (one of my personal heroes) gave their lives willingly so that "the ploughboy" could have the scriptures to understand for himself. This in an age when the scriptures were interpreted to the layman only by those qualified. Wierwille and his text monsters have labored furiously to take us back to those dark days. Days when the common man could not read the Bible in his own language and understand for himself its clear & living message. When he needed to go to a professional MOG to tell him what it REALLY means.
My teenaged children will come away with truth merely by reading the KJV bible with a meek and open heart while you stumble at textual criticism, of which you know little to nothing.
Do you really believe there will ever be a man to do Jesus' works and greater in this world?
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mj412
these nut cases make me nuts....
mike has been doing this for years personly I think he is un house arrest with a bracelet on his foot.
and he brings out the clones..... cy this.
Master what exactly? what the heck does that mean to master something? like we got a slave mentality
and yes cy you cetainly are like alot of the social worker I know holier than anyone and pushing blame with your answers for all of creation.
did ya get fired or just asked to leave?
WHY mike why do you think it is important for someone to master PFAL?
I know you and I do not give a rats *** who eles does your a man driven into a confused state by much more than what the way offered you are nuts have been nuts and you need attention like a disease.
Master this Mike
you may have the right to print here and I may get into trouble for making a personal attack
but call a spade a spade here
Im telling GS this guy has been doing this for a long time and plays alot of games with his lines of stuff and believe me you have not heard the half of it.
He is the reason I went to GS.
tell them mike or I will , I kept alot of the garbage you sent me how about the fact only those who master PFAL will have eternal life etc...
oh get me out of this
please go ahead GS folks you will find out .
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mj412
here is my honest thought.
and Im serious I think if anyone could be martindale it may be this guy mike.
hahahaha
seriously tho
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mj412
I think I mastered that .
ok?
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Mark Sanguinetti
Well Mike. Is that true? Did you tell MJ12 that "only those who master PFAL will have eternal life?"
And really Mike, for argument's sake let's say that Victor Wierwille was a good bible teacher. Don't you think there are other good bible teachers that we can also learn from? Also in all the times you were in TWI didn't you notice that Victor Wierwille did not have a knowledge of Greek or Hebrew, the languages of the biblical texts? Then if he did not have a knowledge of Greek or Hebrew then why should we need his written works for textual clarifications?
One of the reasons that Paul wrote as many epistles as he did is because he was well educated. He could read and write. Yes, he also had a great heart and love for the Lord Jesus Christ, but he was also heads above the other apostles as far as education. Victor Wierwille was not very well educated regarding the biblical languages. However, he may have been a good preacher. This is possible, but he was not educated enough to make Greek textual clarifications. E.W. Bullinger on the other hand was. He even had a Greek lexicon. Through E.W. Bullinger and others Wierwille got all his best biblical material. This has been documented a number of times. Additionally, Paul said that he got his writings by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Do you see the difference?
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mj412
It's obvious that I laid some pretty incredible ideas on you. These
things will become clearer as we obey Dr's final instructions and get down
to mastering those collateral books that came with the class. And who are
we to refuse Dr's dying last words to us?
The grand summary of all that I've attempted to communicate to you is
that those PFAL books are much bigger than we had ever dreamed, MUCH MUCH
bigger! They really are directly from God and far surpass what the King
James translation committee were able to come up with. That mere version,
and all versions are NOT really the Bible.
Versions can be close in some places, far in other places. Without PFAL,
the KJV and all man-made versions are powerless and flawed. Counterfeits
will, of necessity, contain some positive truths, but when the power is most
needed it will not be found. PFAL is God's way of making limp, opinionated
versions of the Bible come to life.
This same recognition of the man-made status of all versions applies to
translations as well, and even to the existing ancient manuscripts.
Remember that those manuscripts are not really copies of the the originals,
they're mis-copies. They were made and preserved mostly by a reprobate
church, having all forsaken Paul, and they were all made under very extreme
pressures of persecution. The reason for the "critical" texts is to sort
through the massive differences in all the ancient manuscripts.
Even if we had THE original manuscripts, we'd still be subject to the
massive satanic influences residing in the teachers and schools of the
ancient languages which we'd depend on. Add to that dilemma all the devilish
evolution of languages and idioms and cultual, plus the overwhelming
religious bias we are all born into.
So when Dr said in "The Way Living In Love" page 179 (right after the
page on the 1942 promise), that the Word is buried, he meant that the real
Bible is NOT available outside that audible promise from God. He uses that
word "buried" there THRICE. Other phrases in that section include phrases
like "terrific need" and "so far from hearing" and "no one around to teach."
It's believing an illusion to think that we have a choice between the
Bible and PFAL. We simply don't have the Bible, only counterfeits. Just
because a traditionally respected book has the label "Bible" on the outside,
that doesn't change the pickles on the inside. And we really are in a
pickle ourselves if we are immersed in existing man-made versions of the
Bible without prior PFAL mastery.
God saw fit to re-issue His Word, NOT as a translation better than KJV,
but in a completely different format: PFAL. God is allowed do this and He
did. See the "Introduction to the Appendixes" way in the back of "Receiving
the Holy Spirit Today."
One way God changed the format of His Word is by adding some needed
material such as the "mechanics of speech" in Session 12. God added to His
own Word before, as reported in Jeremiah 36 with the phrase "many words
added.". Another format change is ommisions. In Session One Dr says he's
not going to teach the entire Bible. God knows that some items in the
original Bible are no longer necessary for our learning. Ommisions such as
this also happened in the past, as there are a few books mentioned in the
Old Testament that are no longer in the canon or even in existence.
The warning in the third to the last verse in the book of Revelation
against adding and subtracting applies to men but not to God. God is allowed
to do things like this, and that is the reason Dr set this out in such
detail just before the appendixes in the Holy Spirit Book.
So, why PFAL? When circumstances change the revelation may change, and
it did. God is preparing us to see, REALLY see His Son as he returns... soon!
Agape,
Mike
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mj412
Several paragraphs above you can find a little explanation of how Dr got
what he got on dechomai and lombano. He did not track down this information,
he got it by revelation. This information can't be figured out by scholars
or by 5-senses methods. Scholars who are meek can "quietly accept that which
is untraceable and cannot be explored or found out."
These appendixes have been added to this volume for those
who desire to search out and explore the deeper reason for the
way in which God has set truth in perfect order in His Word.
We desire this deeper, spiritual understanding of God's Word. A 5-senses
understanding is too limited to defeat the adversary. By meekly searching
out and systematically mastering the treasure God has provided in English
for us we will see "many difficulties disappear." We have the pure Word of God.
Agape,
Mike
HELLO GREASESPOT
these last two posts are copies of just some of the garbage Mike has sent me .
So he also believes DR. was getting revelation for his teachings in answer to your question about Pauls teaching in Mikes eyes Weirwille was a apostle.
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GarthP2000
sorry. double post!
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GarthP2000
Thank you Mike (via this latest post thru mj412), you have clarified a lot more what you are trying to communicate.
And now I am even more certain that what you are communicating is utter hogwash, and that you have indeed put PFAL above the Bible as the Word of God. And that what Raf said is right.
Thank you for your 'thumbnail'.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hi MJ412:
Apparently, you are quoting Mike from a letter written to you. You should clarify this in your post. You can edit your post and click the "..." icon. Thanks.
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mj412
GEEZ
i AM THRILLED i WAS ABLE TO COPY AND PASTE KINDA PROUD OVER HERE THAT IT ACTUALY HAPPENED!!!
oop still working on the cap key getting stuck , mark well now do I really sound like someone who can figure out the " and the " where are they?
Your right they are parts of letters he sent me but not mj412 I was someone eles then.
But he has been playing for a long while.
My only input began with HELLO GGREASESPOT ...
I know it looks easy but I am still amazed when I push the reply button and it shows up !!
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Oakspear
throughly is an archaic form of thoroughly - they mean the same thing
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
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Oakspear
It's so great that we have examples of fanatical Wierwillism being posted here. Should make anybody who has checked this site after being witnessed to think twice.
Thanks for the info MJ
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hi MJ412:
Yea, we are all learning. However, if you ever want to edit one of yours posts after you are logged in, you can click the pencil eraser at the bottom of one of your posts. Then your post will show up again. You can edit it and then click the Post Now button again. Pretty cool really. Don't be afraid to experiment with it. And by all means if you have a problem be sure to ask Garth. I think he might do web sites for a living. You can ask me also and I will try to figure it out.
Happy posting.
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cyasurfin
Oakspear- Thank you for the dictionary def. I am sure that you are correct. My point,though, is that sometimes I have a tendency to read over things without paying close attention to what it says.I am sure that I am not alone in that respect. Hey!- I used to live in Omaha- sure was cold in the winter.
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Oakspear
No you're not alone.
:D-->
As I recall, the point Wierwille was trying to make in the throughly/thoroughly example was to read what was written. I'm sure countless people looked at the word throughly and read thoroughly. If he would have stuck with that instead of giving an incorrect definition of throughly, he'd have been fine.
Through most of PFAL we are told that we would be taught keys to unlock the doors of the bible; that we would no longer have to depend on what man told us, we could compare what preachers and scholars said with what the bible actually said.
I thought that was pretty cool, it was part of what attracted me to twi in the first place.
What was practiced was in reality somewhat different: instead of working the Word on our own, Wierwille worked the Word and told us what he came up with. Any answers different than Wierwille's were considered wrong, no matter that we used the Keys" as well.
So, instead of utilizing the "keys to unlock the doors", we acted pretty much like the people in the denomination did, letting our leaders tell us what the bible said.
Oh sure, we were told that the denominational leaders didn't go to the Word, but I was amazed over the years at the number of ministers who "worked the Word" as thoroughly as Wiewrwille did, using some of the same verses and coming to different conclusions.
And now we're participating in a conversation where one of the positions is that the "keys", and the conclusions reached by them, were given by revelation, and we know this because the guy who supposedly received the revelation told us he did.
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
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Mike
Mark Sanguinetti wrote about 40 posts above at 3:30am:
"Well that is encouraging. So you realize that not all of what Victor Wierwille wrote and spoke was necessarily inspired or given by the holy spirit... Then I guess that means that we can't put Victor's writings with the same esteem as Paul's writings in the Church epistles."
Mark, Let's examine your conclusion here. You're comparing ALL of VPW's writings with only SOME of Paul's writings, the ones that have survived the centuries.
There may very well have been writings of Paul, earlier in his ministry that were quite flawed. The surviving epistles came relatively late in his ministry, I THINK. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Even if I am wrong I know FOR SURE that any writings Paul did prior to meeting his master on the road to Damascus were not God-breathed, like his term papers for Gamaliel. Same with Dr's NON-God-breathed writings.
I remember Dr mentioning on two separate occasions that if he had his way we would never have a chance to read "The Dilemma of the Foreign Missions in India" and then he said much the same thing about a book from around 1952 called something like "Victory in Christ." I also remember seeing a class photo from a very early PFAL class before it had that name. There was a large banner stretched behind all the students proclaiming "The Gifts of the Spirit Class."
Both Paul and Dr wrote letters and memos and notes and grocery lists or such like that were of their own natural 5-senses understanding. I can say with total certainty that "Not all that Paul wrote was necessarily God-breathed." Thank God for those writings of his that WERE God breathed. Thank God for Dr's God-breathed writings as well. The former got relatively lost or buried or tattered. The later we have in relatively pristine pure form. Thank God!
Tell me honestly, if this were true, just IF it really is true.... can you imagine this? What if it were true that we were given not only a great way to cut through a lot of the 'tatterations" of Paul's writings with the PFAL keys, but also as a SURPRISE bonus, God slipped FRESH new perfect writings into our bookcases that are His reformatting of His own perfect Word? Come on now, wouldn't that be WONDERFUL!? If it were true? I'm not asking you to believe it. I'm asking you to IMAGINE it. Are you willing to even consider it long enough to see how wonderful it would be? I can.
Mark also wrote:
"Mike, in past years I studied Wierwille's written works very vigorously. You should see my bible. There are a few sections of scripture in my old bible that are filled with notes like you probably have never seen before."
The standard of mastery that Dr laid out in the tape/print record is very explicit. I'm saving that for a fresh thread later. Here's a preview from segment 5 of the '79 Advanced Class:
I have set for our people, and it's set in the book on
"Receiving the Holy Spirit Today," and people, when you
reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost
to quote this line for line. You should have mastered
this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class.
If you haven't, you better get busy and do it - work it
to where you understand the Word of God in every facet,
in every way of it's utilization regarding the holy
spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in
and out. But I've discovered as I've worked among my
people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class,
there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.
Mark also wrote:
"In studying and writing these notes I found that much of the technical biblical work of VP Wierwille actually came from E.W. Bullinger."
Hey, I don't mind if PART of the strategy God employed was to give Dr revelation to look at Bullinger (and not another researcher similar to Bullinger) and utilize this, this, and this passage, but NOT this passage. That's still legitimate revelation.
Written revelation doesn't have to be all divine dictation. In fact, in the Thessalonians University of Life, Dr TWICE mentions in covering verse 1:1 for both of these epistles, that there is a reason why there are three names mentioned as authors: Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. At these two points Dr teaches that written revelation is usually NOT divine dictation, but first the revelation to Paul was discussed between the three, and then later put into written form. In I Peter 1:20-21 we see the WRITTEN scripture mentioned in verse 20 as coming from a process where (next verse) holy men of God SPAKE.
It's easy to see that God could have utilized Bullinger’s work to get Dr to the point of hearing a revelation of “Vic, Bullinger got it right here.†Additionally, these selected passages of Bullinger may have ALSO been given by revelation, or maybe only portions of them. There's lots of permutations that can be involved.
To simply cite similarities, even CLOSE similarities between Dr's and Bullinger's writings on some points in no way disqualifies Dr's from being given by revelation.
Then Mark wrote:
"...and just go to the scriptures and let them speak for themselves."
We don't HAVE those scriptures to go to Mark, only scholar processed regurgitations. As I mentioned in my post "Feelings" these approximations of the original scriptures are ESSENTIAL for the beginning student, but if a PFAL student wants to go farther on to "all nine all the time" these approximations wont do it. They haven't worked for that kind the power, the full power of all the things Jesus Christ did, for anyone in 2000 years.
Unfortunately, it's also true that no PFAL grads have done it either. But not all the chips are in yet. PFAL is a very recent revelation. We grads have been stalled for some 20 years now. Hardly any PFAL grads ever heard of Dr's dying last words, his final instructions to master the PFAL books. Even the grads who did hear have been talked out of them, or have flagrantly disobeyed them, or have only done some dabbling. Some dabbled more than others, but NONE have mastered it according to Dr's use of the word "master." Soon we can see more of Dr's previous usages of this word and see what he meant by "master" better. From Dr's Advanced Class quote above, we see in the last sentence that in 1979 "even ALL the grads of the Advanced Class†had not mastered the "holy Spirit" book enough, even those who had lots of Bible notes and who had "studied Wierwille's written works very vigorously." It's both vigor AND rigor that are needed.
[This message was edited by Mike on January 02, 2003 at 0:02.]
[This message was edited by Mike on January 02, 2003 at 0:03.]
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