11 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
NIV
1 Cor 3:4-9
4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?
5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe-as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
NIV
It is clear from Mike's posts that he is saying we should primarily follow Victor Wierwille, specifically his teachings. The main thing I dislike about TWI doctrine is their sectarian gospel. When we follow men, or dead men as the case may be, or a particular denomination above the ministry of Jesus Christ we are walking in strife and spiritual blindness. In spite of Wierwillian reasoning Jesus Christ really does have a ministry today. He really does direct the church. Jesus does this through the holy spirit which he gave. The point I am making is that why would we ever want to exalt anyone's ministry above that of Jesus Christ's. The way that I read Mike's written work here this is primarily what he is doing in exalting the ministry of Victor Wierwille.
I always thought you must have the most awesome tape and record collection in the entire universe, but now I'm afraid of it. It seems to be fraught with VPWisms. But, at least YOU know the hoss is dead LOL."
Two things Ron. One.. you are right. I have (or can get my hands on right quick) a lot of sound files and two.. you're right again.. the hoss is real dead but then..you don't really need the word of an infidel like myself to confirm that. You're doing OK by yourself.
But while you're giving me kudos about my sound files I have yet another fer 'ya. It's the reason VPW thought so highly of Howard Allen. Think I'm joshing you? Nope.. I'm sure Herr Doktor thought he was being funny but by golly if he didn't have Howard's true talents pegged.. just click HERE! Hee-hee!
Over the years I've often been in witnessing situations with people who attended conventional churches. I would try to show them the greatness of the epistles of Paul and that the good news of God THERE is greater than in the Four Gospels where Jesus speaks with red letters.
In response these people would often question the appropriateness of my "obsession" with Paul, and tell me that I was placing him on a level above Jesus Christ. This happened often and I had to constantly stress that it is GOD Who is important to me and that Paul was merely a messenger for Him, and that God's had an even better message at Paul’s time than He did during Jesus’.
My focus on Dr. Wierwille's teachings is very similar. What I've seen is that the work God wrought in his ministry is greater that what God was ABLE to do with the translators and scholars who work with the ancient scripture remnants. God was able to partially assist them, but because of MANY factors that blessing was only partial. As a result there is no authoritative critical text, translation, or version that we can go to. They are all approximations from 5-senses efforts.
God was able to go much farther with Dr because he was willing to take the heat of defying tradition and believing the revelation. That was one of his strengths. Why focus on weaknesses? I refuse to; not any more.
It's the MESSAGE that God got through in Dr's ministry that is my focus, not Dr himself. Besides, he’s dead now, and hero worship of a dead man is pretty abstract. I'd have a hard time commiting that sin even if I wanted to. There were many times that Dr's temperment was quite annoying to me.
I worship the God who gave these revelations. Aside from the written record God worked with Dr, what is there to respect in Dr that could be stretched into idolatry?
Haven't you ever been falsly accused of being a worshiper of Paul because you read and talked about the epistles more than the gospels? How did you handle such accusations?
Goey, you asked for some simple specifics some time ago. Here’s what I do NOT believe: That Dr is above God, or that Dr is above Jesus Christ. For you all to accuse me of this says to me your reading skills are lacking.
If you are going to accuse me of something, let’s get it a LITTLE more accurate. Accuse me of thinking that Dr’s books to us are on the same level of PAUL’s. That’s something you can attack me on. It's very anti-tradition. I’ll admit to it, but I’ll deny that this stand of mine is wrong. Let’s debate this, and not something I didn’t say and don't believe.
But I still do think Vic's story about Howard running the table like that was bullsh!t. There's no record of it...anywhere! Besides, what the hell were they playin? What game shoots ALL the balls in?
Boy, I sure could smell the booze and smoke of a tavern in that story though.
quote:Accuse me of thinking that Dr’s books to us are on the same level of PAUL’s. That’s something you can attack me on
Okay, I will!
PAUL wrote down words that were God-breathed.
Victor Paul Wierwille wrote down words that
Were "borrowed" from others
Contained demonstrable errors
Changed from book to book or edition to edition
If you want to argue that it's not idolatry to equate man-breathed words with God-breathed words, fine, I don't have the patience to get into semantics.
Somewhere on one of these "Mike Threads" is a detailed beakdown of some inconsistancies between Wierwille's writings.
On many occassions VP realized that he had made an error and went back and corrected it. There's nothing wrong with that, it at least shows that he was at times willing to change when wrong. It also shows, because there were errors in what he wrote that what he wrote was not God-breathed!
What often contributed to the aura of near-perfection around Wierwille was that usually the mistakes were fixed very quietly, without admitting that there was ever a different version than the current one.
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
Thank you for the reply. I have enjoyed many of your views concerning TWI-1, as you call it. TWI was there for me too when I needed to hear things about God that made some sense. But if it hadn’t been TWI, it would have been from another source. God is not limited by organizations, or individuals. That’s all I was saying.
I heartily agree God works with all sorts of different folks in different ways.
However, when you say, "in a manner they will come to appreciate", are you speaking of TWI, as the manner used by God, that they will come to appreciate? Or are you referring to God’s very own manner of tenderness, grace and mercy? It makes a big difference on whether I agree with the second half of your statement or not.
As much as I want to be apart of your cult, I'm having a hard time with a number if things
You said
"Over the years I've often been in witnessing situations with people who attended conventional churches. I would try to show them the greatness of the epistles of Paul and that the good news of God THERE is greater than in the Four Gospels where Jesus speaks with red letters.
In response these people would often question the appropriateness of my "obsession" with Paul, and tell me that I was placing him on a level above Jesus Christ."
and
"That Dr is above God, or that Dr is above Jesus Christ. For you all to accuse me of this says to me your reading skills are lacking."
Sounds strangely familiar! Maybe it is not everyone else that is misunderstanding you. Maybe it is the way you are communicating your views. I'm not being a Mike hater, that is just honest (hopefully helpful) critisism.
you wrote
"Haven't you ever been falsly accused of being a worshiper of Paul because you read and talked about the epistles more than the gospels?"
Nope never. And I did that a lot. Maybe it is the communication issue again.
you said:
"If you are going to accuse me of something, let’s get it a LITTLE more accurate. Accuse me of thinking that Dr’s books to us are on the same level of PAUL’s. That’s something you can attack me on."
Unlike a lot of people hear I can't argue that one. Same level? Yes, I think it was the eighth grade reading level. So everyone could understand, right?
you wrote:
"For you all to accuse me of this says to me your reading skills are lacking."
Our reading skills? I'm sure that was much funnier than you intended. ROTFLMAO!
you wrote
"It's very anti-tradition. I’ll admit to it, but I’ll deny that this stand of mine is wrong. Let’s debate this, and not something I didn’t say and don't believe."
You should try this sometime. I think it could be very helpful. Go ahead debate something you don't believe. What do you have to lose. If your stand is the truth it stands on it's own right? Why not try and pick it apart from someone else's point of view? It will still be there when your done. Or will it?
Just some helpful hints. You are slowly getting me hooked. I know deep down that you are just like the cult I grew to know and love, and I have been dying to join another. We just have some communication problems that's all.
quote:"Goey, you asked for some simple specifics some time ago. Here’s what I do NOT believe: That Dr is above God, or that Dr is above Jesus Christ. For you all to accuse me of this says to me your reading skills are lacking"
I did not ask you to exlain what you don't believe. My question was to give specifics on what you do believe - "Whose reading skill is lacking?"
Lay it out in plain English - Point by point.
The problem I see is that you seem to be so caught up in the set-up, pre-defense, and pre-qualifying your beliefs, that you have made little effort to plainly lay them out.
So Mike, cut to the chase and tell us what the diamonds and treasures are.
quote:....God is not limited by organizations, or individuals. That’s all I was saying.
...
However, when you say, "in a manner they will come to appreciate", are you speaking of TWI, as the manner used by God, that they will come to appreciate? Or are you referring to God’s very own manner of tenderness, grace and mercy? It makes a big difference on whether I agree with the second half of your statement or not.
Hi JesseJoe,
I'm not sure what you mean about "God isn't limited by organizations or individuals". Isn't that the way people initially learn about and believe the gospel, through others preaching?
Consider these verses:
Rom 10:14 -- How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 -- And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
You said if TWI-1 wasn't around, there'd be others? Which ones? Jehovah's witnesses? Roman Catholic? others? These other groups didn't work for me; TWI-1 did.
I think what people are trying to say is that if not for TWI-1, God would have found another method to reach you. The problem, of course, is that such a statement is unprovable, unless you go back and change time (which is kind of what makes it unprovable).
The statement can only be proven by inference. God is resourceful. I have no trouble believing that if I never encountered TWI, God would have found some other way to reach me with the positive message I heard there. I think that is consistent with God's character and abilities.
So in that sense, God is not limited by people or organizations. TWI-1 fell. It no longer exists. So, is God's Word no longer available? Of course it is. God is resourceful. He can reach people, whether or not there's a TWI-1, a VPW, or even (gasp) an RAO!
But I still do think Vic's story about Howard running the table like that was bullsh!t. There's no record of it...anywhere! :)--> Besides, what the hell were they playin? What game shoots ALL the balls in?
Boy, I sure could smell the booze and smoke of a tavern in that story though.
(Thanks Sudo).
Um, Snooker, 9 ball, Rotation, those are a few that come to mind. :)-->
And I have never heard of a game where one wins by sinkin' all 15 balls. As soon as he missed, his opponent could sink one and neither would be able to win.
quote: I worship the God who gave these revelations. Aside from the written record God worked with Dr, what is there to respect in Dr that could be stretched into idolatry?
You're correct: Aside from the idol you're idolizing, I find no evidence of idolatry in your posts or positions.
But you see, that's the point. The idol which you idolize is the written word of VPW, which you equate to the Word of God. You idolize the written word of VPW, which is NOT "the Word of God," and for that, sir, you are an idolater.
quote:Haven't you ever been falsly accused of being a worshiper of Paul because you read and talked about the epistles more than the gospels? How did you handle such accusations?
First off, no one has ever accused me of worshipping Paul. Many people have been accused of exalting the epistles OVER the gospels, but the accusation was NOT that we were worshipping Paul. The accusation was that we were DIMINISHING the gospels and the other writings of scripture. So, if you want to talk about getting your accusations straight, you might want to start there.
Of course, if you were to do that, your straw man would have very little relevance to the discussion at hand.
quote:Goey, you asked for some simple specifics some time ago. Here’s what I do NOT believe: That Dr is above God, or that Dr is above Jesus Christ. For you all to accuse me of this says to me your reading skills are lacking.
I accuse you of holding the writings of VPW on par with the Bible itself, indeed ABOVE par with any version of the Bible we have available to us. I accuse you of exalting the words of VPW over the Word of God itself.
quote:If you are going to accuse me of something, let’s get it a LITTLE more accurate. Accuse me of thinking that Dr’s books to us are on the same level of PAUL’s.
Then you admit it. Fine.
The FACT that you are wrong about this is evidenced by the fact that NO ONE, not VPW, not LCM, not anyone else who ever knew or worked with VPW, has ever made the same claim. In other words, you are ascribing attributes to VPW's written works that exceed even the wildest egomaniacal rantings of VPW himself. You idolize his words. You worship the creation of a man. That is the textbook definition of idolatry.
quote:That’s something you can attack me on.
No, the attack is not on you. It is on your position, which is foolish, unbiblical and ungodly.
I really like getting the kudos but my thoughts were more along the lines that Herr Doktor was "exaggerating" about Howard Allen but I could be wrong.. could be that Howard had all the requisite skills necassary for being a BOT member by way of being able to hustle up a little game of pool on the side.
But do please do carry on.. I feel I'm intruding a little bit. maybe I ought to just keep my sound files to myself, huh?
I think you are right Sudo. First and foremost Victor Wierwille was a salesman. And thanks for the music. You know I still have on my computer desk top the music from the USC band that you provided.
THE COURT OF TRADITIONAL CHURCHIANITY IS NOW IN SESSION
ALL RISE
Prosecutor Rafael: I accuse you of holding the writings of VPW on par with the Bible itself, indeed ABOVE par with any version of the Bible we have available to us. I accuse you of exalting the words of VPW over the Word of God itself.
HOW DOES THE DEFENDANT PLEAD TO THESE CHARGES?
(A) HOLDING THE WRITINGS OF VPW ON PAR WITH THE BIBLE ITSELF:
Mike: Guilty Your DisHonor! But only SOME of his writings... and only if “the Bible itself†means as it was originally given by holy men of God as they spoke by the holy spirit. The “on par†I’m admitting to is in the sense that the same God REALLY authored both by giving revelation. In other words I believe that the giving of such revelation in written form did NOT die with the apostles as this court insists.
Prosecutor Rafael: Then you admit it. Fine.
HOW DO YOU PLEAD TO THE SECOND CHARGE?
(B) INDEED ABOVE PAR WITH ANY VERSION OF THE BIBLE WE HAVE AVAILABLE TO US
Mike: Guilty Your DisHonor! But I’m not alone in this. I’ll bet that almost every member of the jury here have “scratched out†sections in their versions of the Bible, and changed words that they know the translators botched, and other things that...
Mike: On this third charge I’m NOT Guilty Your DisHonor! I exalt “The Word of God†that He, God, revealed by VARIOUS methods to VPW over only the corrupted man-made versions, translations, modern critical compilations, and ancient fragments that this court is limited itself to. In respect to your thumbnail injunction I’ll explain what I mean by “VARIOUS†on another thread.
NO! WE WANT EVERYTHING NOW, FAST!
Mike: But your DisHonor, some of these traditions are complicated, and it takes lots time and lots of unscrambling to get my data presented. There are quite a few thumbnails that all fit together to make a consistent picture. If one thumbnail is objectionable, it’s thrown out of court, even though the objection will be satisfied by a later thumbnail. Then that later one needs the first thumbnail to deal with its new objections. All the thumbnails fit neatly together and need to be considered as a whole, but this court does not allow this.
YOU ARE TOO WORDY! I TOLD YOU TO BE BRIEF.
Mike: But Your DisHonor, you say you want me to lay it all out, everything, to bring it on. Then when I try, you demand brevity. How do I .....
EGO EGO EGO! YOU THINK YOU KNOW IT ALL, DON’T YOU?
Mike: No Your DisHonor. I just had a really great teacher, and he had the best teacher, God Almighty.
WE’VE HEARD ENOUGH. YOU’VE PLEADED GUILTY IN TWO OF THE CHARGES. THERE’S NO NEED TO HEAR ANY MORE. WE KNOW IT ALL. WE FIND YOU GUILTY ON THE THIRD CHARGE BECAUSE YOU’RE GUILTY ON THE FIRST TWO. WE CAN’T TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY.
Mike: I appeal to a higher court! My brother Jay is a defense attorney, and the judge of that court is my daddy. They’re going to straighten you out, and make some changes in the leadership around here.
“The FACT that you are wrong about this is evidenced by the fact that NO ONE, not VPW, not LCM, not anyone else who ever knew or worked with VPW, has ever made the same claim.â€
As RG posted months ago. I can document where VPW made MANY assertions that God taught him. Most are very subtle and hidden, some are more out in the open, and one is totally up front. This last one every grad here remembers, or will remember when I post it. I’ll get there soon as time permits. Meanwhile I want to thin out the number of threads I have to read and often respond to. You can ask RG if you want a preview. Maybe that’ll get him to look at them again and give them a little more thought than he did when I e-mailed him. There’s lots of data to get to.
I'm not much of a fan of the "what would Jesus do" people, but I would think he might kick your butt back to the scriptures.
JC didn't even allow himself to be so worshiped.
I think he said search the scriptures not the works of vpw.
Like you I've read and worked all those books more times then I care to count and Now I find them seriously lacking in truth. And the practical application of them simply do not work.
The fruit of vp's "the way ministry" or "the way international" is self evident.
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T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
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GarthP2000
"So why should he be expected to mention how great Jesus is? It's separate froim the point he is making."
More than he'll ever know.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Mark Sanguinetti
1 Cor 1:11-13
11 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
NIV
1 Cor 3:4-9
4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?
5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe-as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
NIV
It is clear from Mike's posts that he is saying we should primarily follow Victor Wierwille, specifically his teachings. The main thing I dislike about TWI doctrine is their sectarian gospel. When we follow men, or dead men as the case may be, or a particular denomination above the ministry of Jesus Christ we are walking in strife and spiritual blindness. In spite of Wierwillian reasoning Jesus Christ really does have a ministry today. He really does direct the church. Jesus does this through the holy spirit which he gave. The point I am making is that why would we ever want to exalt anyone's ministry above that of Jesus Christ's. The way that I read Mike's written work here this is primarily what he is doing in exalting the ministry of Victor Wierwille.
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firebee
Didn't VPW and TWI teach on numerous occaisions that putting anything before or in front of God was idolatry?
VP studied Stiles, Bullinger, etc. In his writings VP clearly used words written by others and placed them as his own (plagarism).
Does that mean that the words VP stole (borrowed) from others is also equally God-breathed?
By further extension, that has to mean that anyone speaking(using) Vp's words are also uttering divine truth.
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Sudo
Ron,
Re:"Sudo...
I always thought you must have the most awesome tape and record collection in the entire universe, but now I'm afraid of it. It seems to be fraught with VPWisms. But, at least YOU know the hoss is dead LOL."
Two things Ron. One.. you are right. I have (or can get my hands on right quick) a lot of sound files and two.. you're right again.. the hoss is real dead but then..you don't really need the word of an infidel like myself to confirm that. You're doing OK by yourself.
But while you're giving me kudos about my sound files I have yet another fer 'ya. It's the reason VPW thought so highly of Howard Allen. Think I'm joshing you? Nope.. I'm sure Herr Doktor thought he was being funny but by golly if he didn't have Howard's true talents pegged.. just click HERE! Hee-hee!
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GarthP2000
Looks like ol' VPW shoed Howard a few 'balls' of his own.
And it was all downhill for Howard from there on in.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Mike
Over the years I've often been in witnessing situations with people who attended conventional churches. I would try to show them the greatness of the epistles of Paul and that the good news of God THERE is greater than in the Four Gospels where Jesus speaks with red letters.
In response these people would often question the appropriateness of my "obsession" with Paul, and tell me that I was placing him on a level above Jesus Christ. This happened often and I had to constantly stress that it is GOD Who is important to me and that Paul was merely a messenger for Him, and that God's had an even better message at Paul’s time than He did during Jesus’.
My focus on Dr. Wierwille's teachings is very similar. What I've seen is that the work God wrought in his ministry is greater that what God was ABLE to do with the translators and scholars who work with the ancient scripture remnants. God was able to partially assist them, but because of MANY factors that blessing was only partial. As a result there is no authoritative critical text, translation, or version that we can go to. They are all approximations from 5-senses efforts.
God was able to go much farther with Dr because he was willing to take the heat of defying tradition and believing the revelation. That was one of his strengths. Why focus on weaknesses? I refuse to; not any more.
It's the MESSAGE that God got through in Dr's ministry that is my focus, not Dr himself. Besides, he’s dead now, and hero worship of a dead man is pretty abstract. I'd have a hard time commiting that sin even if I wanted to. There were many times that Dr's temperment was quite annoying to me.
I worship the God who gave these revelations. Aside from the written record God worked with Dr, what is there to respect in Dr that could be stretched into idolatry?
Haven't you ever been falsly accused of being a worshiper of Paul because you read and talked about the epistles more than the gospels? How did you handle such accusations?
Goey, you asked for some simple specifics some time ago. Here’s what I do NOT believe: That Dr is above God, or that Dr is above Jesus Christ. For you all to accuse me of this says to me your reading skills are lacking.
If you are going to accuse me of something, let’s get it a LITTLE more accurate. Accuse me of thinking that Dr’s books to us are on the same level of PAUL’s. That’s something you can attack me on. It's very anti-tradition. I’ll admit to it, but I’ll deny that this stand of mine is wrong. Let’s debate this, and not something I didn’t say and don't believe.
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sirguessalot
Well said, Mike.
But I still do think Vic's story about Howard running the table like that was bullsh!t. There's no record of it...anywhere! Besides, what the hell were they playin? What game shoots ALL the balls in?
Boy, I sure could smell the booze and smoke of a tavern in that story though.
(Thanks Sudo).
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Oakspear
Okay, I will!
PAUL wrote down words that were God-breathed.
Victor Paul Wierwille wrote down words that
If you want to argue that it's not idolatry to equate man-breathed words with God-breathed words, fine, I don't have the patience to get into semantics.
Somewhere on one of these "Mike Threads" is a detailed beakdown of some inconsistancies between Wierwille's writings.
On many occassions VP realized that he had made an error and went back and corrected it. There's nothing wrong with that, it at least shows that he was at times willing to change when wrong. It also shows, because there were errors in what he wrote that what he wrote was not God-breathed!
What often contributed to the aura of near-perfection around Wierwille was that usually the mistakes were fixed very quietly, without admitting that there was ever a different version than the current one.
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
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JesseJoe
Thank you for the reply. I have enjoyed many of your views concerning TWI-1, as you call it. TWI was there for me too when I needed to hear things about God that made some sense. But if it hadn’t been TWI, it would have been from another source. God is not limited by organizations, or individuals. That’s all I was saying.
I heartily agree God works with all sorts of different folks in different ways.
However, when you say, "in a manner they will come to appreciate", are you speaking of TWI, as the manner used by God, that they will come to appreciate? Or are you referring to God’s very own manner of tenderness, grace and mercy? It makes a big difference on whether I agree with the second half of your statement or not.
Jesse
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lindyhopper
As much as I want to be apart of your cult, I'm having a hard time with a number if things
You said
"Over the years I've often been in witnessing situations with people who attended conventional churches. I would try to show them the greatness of the epistles of Paul and that the good news of God THERE is greater than in the Four Gospels where Jesus speaks with red letters.
In response these people would often question the appropriateness of my "obsession" with Paul, and tell me that I was placing him on a level above Jesus Christ."
and
"That Dr is above God, or that Dr is above Jesus Christ. For you all to accuse me of this says to me your reading skills are lacking."
Sounds strangely familiar! Maybe it is not everyone else that is misunderstanding you. Maybe it is the way you are communicating your views. I'm not being a Mike hater, that is just honest (hopefully helpful) critisism.
you wrote
"Haven't you ever been falsly accused of being a worshiper of Paul because you read and talked about the epistles more than the gospels?"
Nope never. And I did that a lot. Maybe it is the communication issue again.
you said:
"If you are going to accuse me of something, let’s get it a LITTLE more accurate. Accuse me of thinking that Dr’s books to us are on the same level of PAUL’s. That’s something you can attack me on."
Unlike a lot of people hear I can't argue that one. Same level? Yes, I think it was the eighth grade reading level. So everyone could understand, right?
you wrote:
"For you all to accuse me of this says to me your reading skills are lacking."
Our reading skills? I'm sure that was much funnier than you intended. ROTFLMAO!
you wrote
"It's very anti-tradition. I’ll admit to it, but I’ll deny that this stand of mine is wrong. Let’s debate this, and not something I didn’t say and don't believe."
You should try this sometime. I think it could be very helpful. Go ahead debate something you don't believe. What do you have to lose. If your stand is the truth it stands on it's own right? Why not try and pick it apart from someone else's point of view? It will still be there when your done. Or will it?
Just some helpful hints. You are slowly getting me hooked. I know deep down that you are just like the cult I grew to know and love, and I have been dying to join another. We just have some communication problems that's all.
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Goey
Mike,
I did not ask you to exlain what you don't believe. My question was to give specifics on what you do believe - "Whose reading skill is lacking?"
Lay it out in plain English - Point by point.
The problem I see is that you seem to be so caught up in the set-up, pre-defense, and pre-qualifying your beliefs, that you have made little effort to plainly lay them out.
So Mike, cut to the chase and tell us what the diamonds and treasures are.
Goey
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Yanagisawa
I'll believe VP was the MOG when it's documented that Howard ran the table in a snowstorm while pumping gas.
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oldiesman
Hi JesseJoe,
I'm not sure what you mean about "God isn't limited by organizations or individuals". Isn't that the way people initially learn about and believe the gospel, through others preaching?
Consider these verses:
Rom 10:14 -- How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 -- And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
You said if TWI-1 wasn't around, there'd be others? Which ones? Jehovah's witnesses? Roman Catholic? others? These other groups didn't work for me; TWI-1 did.
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Raf
Oldies,
I think what people are trying to say is that if not for TWI-1, God would have found another method to reach you. The problem, of course, is that such a statement is unprovable, unless you go back and change time (which is kind of what makes it unprovable).
The statement can only be proven by inference. God is resourceful. I have no trouble believing that if I never encountered TWI, God would have found some other way to reach me with the positive message I heard there. I think that is consistent with God's character and abilities.
So in that sense, God is not limited by people or organizations. TWI-1 fell. It no longer exists. So, is God's Word no longer available? Of course it is. God is resourceful. He can reach people, whether or not there's a TWI-1, a VPW, or even (gasp) an RAO!
Happy New Year.
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Bluzeman
Um, Snooker, 9 ball, Rotation, those are a few that come to mind.
:)-->
OK, sorry for the derail!
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sirguessalot
He said "ran all 15 balls," didn't he?
I heard it clearly.
And I have never heard of a game where one wins by sinkin' all 15 balls. As soon as he missed, his opponent could sink one and neither would be able to win.
Therefore, such a game does not exist. ha!
snooker? how do ya play? (another thread, maybe?)
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Bluzeman
Guess I didn't listen closely enough...I just took it to mean he ran the table. Sorry, my bad!
Rick
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Raf
You're correct: Aside from the idol you're idolizing, I find no evidence of idolatry in your posts or positions.
But you see, that's the point. The idol which you idolize is the written word of VPW, which you equate to the Word of God. You idolize the written word of VPW, which is NOT "the Word of God," and for that, sir, you are an idolater.
First off, no one has ever accused me of worshipping Paul. Many people have been accused of exalting the epistles OVER the gospels, but the accusation was NOT that we were worshipping Paul. The accusation was that we were DIMINISHING the gospels and the other writings of scripture. So, if you want to talk about getting your accusations straight, you might want to start there.
Of course, if you were to do that, your straw man would have very little relevance to the discussion at hand.
I accuse you of holding the writings of VPW on par with the Bible itself, indeed ABOVE par with any version of the Bible we have available to us. I accuse you of exalting the words of VPW over the Word of God itself.
Then you admit it. Fine.
The FACT that you are wrong about this is evidenced by the fact that NO ONE, not VPW, not LCM, not anyone else who ever knew or worked with VPW, has ever made the same claim. In other words, you are ascribing attributes to VPW's written works that exceed even the wildest egomaniacal rantings of VPW himself. You idolize his words. You worship the creation of a man. That is the textbook definition of idolatry.
No, the attack is not on you. It is on your position, which is foolish, unbiblical and ungodly.
Anti-tradition. Anti-common-sense. Anti-Biblical. Anti-Christ.
Your denials are worth the paper on which they're printed. Think about it.
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Sudo
You know guys..
I really like getting the kudos but my thoughts were more along the lines that Herr Doktor was "exaggerating" about Howard Allen but I could be wrong.. could be that Howard had all the requisite skills necassary for being a BOT member by way of being able to hustle up a little game of pool on the side.
But do please do carry on.. I feel I'm intruding a little bit. maybe I ought to just keep my sound files to myself, huh?
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Mark Sanguinetti
I think you are right Sudo. First and foremost Victor Wierwille was a salesman. And thanks for the music. You know I still have on my computer desk top the music from the USC band that you provided.
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Mike
THE COURT OF TRADITIONAL CHURCHIANITY IS NOW IN SESSION
ALL RISE
Prosecutor Rafael: I accuse you of holding the writings of VPW on par with the Bible itself, indeed ABOVE par with any version of the Bible we have available to us. I accuse you of exalting the words of VPW over the Word of God itself.
HOW DOES THE DEFENDANT PLEAD TO THESE CHARGES?
(A) HOLDING THE WRITINGS OF VPW ON PAR WITH THE BIBLE ITSELF:
Mike: Guilty Your DisHonor! But only SOME of his writings... and only if “the Bible itself†means as it was originally given by holy men of God as they spoke by the holy spirit. The “on par†I’m admitting to is in the sense that the same God REALLY authored both by giving revelation. In other words I believe that the giving of such revelation in written form did NOT die with the apostles as this court insists.
Prosecutor Rafael: Then you admit it. Fine.
HOW DO YOU PLEAD TO THE SECOND CHARGE?
(B) INDEED ABOVE PAR WITH ANY VERSION OF THE BIBLE WE HAVE AVAILABLE TO US
Mike: Guilty Your DisHonor! But I’m not alone in this. I’ll bet that almost every member of the jury here have “scratched out†sections in their versions of the Bible, and changed words that they know the translators botched, and other things that...
WE DONT WANT TO BE PREACHED AT HERE!
KEEP YOUR RESPONSES DOWN TO A THUMBNAIL.
Mike: But your dishonor.....
HOW EGOTISTICAL OF YOU ! YOU NEED HELP BOY!
HOW DO YOU PLEAD TO THE THIRD CHARGE?
© EXALTING THE WORDS OF VPW OVER THE WORD OF GOD ITSELF
Mike: On this third charge I’m NOT Guilty Your DisHonor! I exalt “The Word of God†that He, God, revealed by VARIOUS methods to VPW over only the corrupted man-made versions, translations, modern critical compilations, and ancient fragments that this court is limited itself to. In respect to your thumbnail injunction I’ll explain what I mean by “VARIOUS†on another thread.
NO! WE WANT EVERYTHING NOW, FAST!
Mike: But your DisHonor, some of these traditions are complicated, and it takes lots time and lots of unscrambling to get my data presented. There are quite a few thumbnails that all fit together to make a consistent picture. If one thumbnail is objectionable, it’s thrown out of court, even though the objection will be satisfied by a later thumbnail. Then that later one needs the first thumbnail to deal with its new objections. All the thumbnails fit neatly together and need to be considered as a whole, but this court does not allow this.
YOU ARE TOO WORDY! I TOLD YOU TO BE BRIEF.
Mike: But Your DisHonor, you say you want me to lay it all out, everything, to bring it on. Then when I try, you demand brevity. How do I .....
EGO EGO EGO! YOU THINK YOU KNOW IT ALL, DON’T YOU?
Mike: No Your DisHonor. I just had a really great teacher, and he had the best teacher, God Almighty.
WE’VE HEARD ENOUGH. YOU’VE PLEADED GUILTY IN TWO OF THE CHARGES. THERE’S NO NEED TO HEAR ANY MORE. WE KNOW IT ALL. WE FIND YOU GUILTY ON THE THIRD CHARGE BECAUSE YOU’RE GUILTY ON THE FIRST TWO. WE CAN’T TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY.
Mike: I appeal to a higher court! My brother Jay is a defense attorney, and the judge of that court is my daddy. They’re going to straighten you out, and make some changes in the leadership around here.
(to be continued)
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Mike
On a more serious note.
Rafael, you wrote:
“The FACT that you are wrong about this is evidenced by the fact that NO ONE, not VPW, not LCM, not anyone else who ever knew or worked with VPW, has ever made the same claim.â€
As RG posted months ago. I can document where VPW made MANY assertions that God taught him. Most are very subtle and hidden, some are more out in the open, and one is totally up front. This last one every grad here remembers, or will remember when I post it. I’ll get there soon as time permits. Meanwhile I want to thin out the number of threads I have to read and often respond to. You can ask RG if you want a preview. Maybe that’ll get him to look at them again and give them a little more thought than he did when I e-mailed him. There’s lots of data to get to.
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Mark Sanguinetti
O.K. Mike. I think we all understand. You love the teachings of Victor Wierwille. However, are there any teachings of his that you find unscriptural?
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Vertical Limit
Yo Mike
I'm not much of a fan of the "what would Jesus do" people, but I would think he might kick your butt back to the scriptures.
JC didn't even allow himself to be so worshiped.
I think he said search the scriptures not the works of vpw.
Like you I've read and worked all those books more times then I care to count and Now I find them seriously lacking in truth. And the practical application of them simply do not work.
The fruit of vp's "the way ministry" or "the way international" is self evident.
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