Mike, you assume an awful lot about us Gsers. I did confront VPW, very politely, about his celebrity status. Although I was never molested (having a NYer hubby with tattoos might've helped me there!), he definitely treated me like "just a woman" on more than one occasion. Just like VPW does to another woman at the beginning of the "lost last teaching" you have so reverently transcribed for us.
I also stood up to "leadership," long before there was an Internet. Sometimes it was for myself, sometimes it was for my fellow believer. I didn't know anyone who had been sexually violated (at least they didn't tell me) or I'd have been a lot more vocal, even with my pro-TWI mindset at the time.
Perhaps you think that Leonard and Stiles and Wierwille were all inspired by God, hence the apparent plagiarisms -- they all got the words from God. Sorry, I don't buy it, having seen with my own eyes word-for-word plagiarism where other words would have been more suitable. Anyway, we were taught in PFAL (which you laud so highly) that God would reveal His Word to men, and they would write it down using their own vocabularies. Therefore, a word-for-word copy by different men should not occur if there is truly revelation from God.
VPW and I have different ideas about what "the joy of serving" is. He seems to think it is about teaching people the precepts of PFAL, and thereby meeting people's "needs." I think it is about meeting their needs (sick, poor, downtrodden) with what they NEED (healthcare, food, compassion), and being an open book about what I believe. Kinda like that guy Jesus. It brings me joy -- not the adrenaline rush of preaching at people (which is occasionally necessary also), but the joy of secretly helping someone else's life get better.
Below is a set of letters consisting of a short note from an old friend of mine, and my response to her. She's a Corps grad, but I've changed her name. This essay on Dr's writings picks up where an earlier essay (titled "Discovery") that appeared on this thread left off. This one deals with our proper response to the "discovery" of Dr's Last/Lost Teaching. Should we, or should we not obey Dr's instructions to master the PFAL books? That's what it all boils down to.
are doing with Dr. Wierwille's writings is shooting
darts, missing the main target. Get back to the
main focus, the Bible, and use Dr's books as he
originally intended, as aids to understanding the
Bible, not as bibles in themselves.
Much Love,
Linda
Dear Linda,
I hear you. I understand your feelings. I have felt them myself many times. When I look around at what everyone else is doing, there sometimes seems to be a ring of fringe wackiness in some of what I've said about Dr's books and the mastering of them. It is sometimes very uncomfortable to me as well as to you.
What you've said lines up well with everything we came to understand from our training in The Way, as well as with a time honored tradition of our modern culture of denominational churches. However, I believe what we originally received from our training was only partial. Our understanding still needs to mature and progress from a sense knowledge understanding to a spiritual understanding. This is what Dr's mandate to master the books is really all about.
One thing we were taught is that tradition is often engineered by the god of this world, and that any challenges to tradition with the truth of God's Word are met with retaliation by the adversary. Splitfoot has all sorts of methods to generate feelings of trepidation in the mind of a tradition challenger. That is why I'm bracing myself against these uncomfortable feelings and pressing on in the direction of PFAL book mastery. This is what we were instructed to do by Dr. Wierwille in his dying last words to us.
God has nine manifestations with which to interact with us, and there is nothing ever preventing God from saying to a believer "Take a note. Write this down." I think God did precisely that with Dr because Dr often said so, and we enjoyed the resultant profit immensely. How else are we to handle those statements of Dr's on pages 116 and 34 of the Green Book? On page 83 of the PFAL book he even uses the phrase "God-breathed" to describe SOME of his own writings, albeit well hidden in complicated grammar.
Such "given-by-revelation-from-God" kind of writings are WORTH mastering. That's what Dr. said we were to do in his dying last words to us: to master certain things which he (really God) wrote. I intend to obey, feelings or not.
Dr. said "Thus saith the Lord" on many occasions in his writings and tapes. I just mentioned three. There are many others. What are we to do with them? Ignore them? Not me! Not any longer.
At 10:02 AM 9/17/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Mike, I really think that going back to the original
>God-breathed Word is where to go.
This is impossible without PFAL. We don't HAVE the original God-breathed Word to go to. With the King James, a Concordance, Interlinear, etc. you can go only as far as the PFAL principles still residing in your mind will take you. How much has leaked out? How much of the total did you get in the first place? How much was actually mastered? A partial mastery of PFAL, partially leaked out over the years, means you can't make it all the way back to the original Word Of God. How far do you want to go?
I want to go all the way, so I must obey Dr's final instructions. I'm not happy with a partial access to the original Bible. I'm going to master the GOD-BREATHED teaching of the Bible we got in PFAL so that I am ABLE to feed from the original Bible in a God-designed way, not in a traditional way.
In the class (segment 16, page 127 in the book) Dr. says:
"No translation, no translation, and I want you to listen
very carefully; for no translation, and by the way that's
all we have today at best are translations. No translation
may properly be called The Word Of God... ..no translation!"
Then a minute later he repeats:
"Now I said that no translation, no translation, let alone
a version, no translation may properly be called The Word
Of God..."
Then several minutes later he hits it again:
"And in this class on Power For Abundant Living, when I
refer to The Word Of God I may hold the King James Version
or I may hold some other version and point to it; I do not
mean that version. I mean that Word of God which was
originally given when holy men of God spake as they were
moved by the Holy Spirit."
So to the opening of your letter: "I really think that going back to the original God-breathed Word is where to go" I must agree. That's where I want to go. That is the goal. However, the God provided method for accomplishing that goal (promised in 1942) is to take PFAL and then to master it as we were instructed.
The method which denominational tradition provides us for research is an assortment of various printed versions. But no translation may properly be called The Word Of God, let alone a version. That means translations and versions are counterfeits! They may be close at times, but counterfeits none the less!
This is such an important concept that Dr. says the phrase "no translation" a full 8 times in the first couple of minutes into that segment to drive it home. The adversary has had 2000 years to damage manuscripts, languages, traditions and cultural customs, thus rendering ALL versions horribly impotent. Good for beginner students, but lousy for learning the power.
We were taught that the moment we add a word, subtract a word, or change a word then we no longer have The Word left. The process of translating manuscripts and then producing a version involves MUCH addition, subtraction, and changing. In a translation almost ALL the words are changed!!!
Without the necessary revelation of PFAL all versions are counterfeits, and all students of such are doomed to mere churchianity with no real power to do all the things Jesus Christ did. An occasionally answered prayer does not compare to "all nine all the time."
Some versions of the Bible are useful and essential to beginning students of the scriptures, but we, mature PFAL grads, should be way past that stage of development. If God wanted us to be mastering some version, then why did Dr tell us to master something else? Do we want to bet everything that Dr's last words to us were worthless?
Oh sure, we grads can still get lots of warm feelings, and also some practical advice from the KJV or NIV, but the adversary's targets for damage in the text are where we might learn the full power. Plus, without PFAL mastery, our winging it in rightly dividing our KJV version may go into total error. We don't have that 1942 promise addressed to us like Dr did. What are we going to find in our own research that God didn't already show Dr in that 40 plus year project?
There's no way we would have ever gotten to SIT, Interpretation, and Prophecy without God's extra-biblical help via the revelation of PFAL. Likewise, there's no way we're ever going to master the other manifestations by mastering any English version. It's the PFAL books we were told to master.
I have to compare two feelings. Let's call them (A) and (B):
(A) The discomfort of not being able to do all the things Jesus Christ did and greater, but having the nice feelings of playing along with old denominational traditions and working primarily with culturally accepted "versions."
(B) The discomfort of defying tradition and following the instructions of my father in the Word, mastering PFAL, and THEN having a real mastery of the Bible along with the full power.
I'll take the latter (B); it's only temporarily uncomfortable.
To accept the former (A) means to ignore all those "Thus saith the Lord" statements of Dr's, and to ignore his dying last words to us. That is why I write these things. So that people can make this decision fully knowledgeable of the implications. If you study Dr's Last/Lost Teaching you will see he is saying "Pick (B)"
You also wrote:
>I feel what you are doing with Dr. Wierwille's writings is shooting
>darts, missing the main target. Get back to the main focus, the Bible, and
>use Dr's books as he originally intended, as aids to understanding the Bible
The use of these books as aids to understanding the Bible is almost exactly what I am doing in all my activities. The only difference is I'd rephrase your last line: "use Dr's books as He (God) originally intended." I'd stress that these aids are from God Himself (1942 audible promise) not merely VP Wierwille (Green Book p.116).
All versions are man-breathed aids to understand the original Bible. What we must get clear on is the difference between man-breathed aids to the Bible and God-breathed aids to the Bible. Which of those two would you choose? God has blessed us with the latter, PFAL. Because this aid is directly from God, it is pure, trustworthy, worth mastering, and irreplaceable. We must accept no substitutes.
But unfortunately, mere substitutes are exactly what almost the entire body of PFAL grads have been seduced into. Most have drifted into KJV idolatry, and alternative clone classes have abounded all over. We've all walked away from the loaf, and are picking at crumbs! I include myself in there, but I'm going back to the loaf, the bread of life from God, baked fresh in rather recent decades, and right before our very eyes. We just got talked out of it... temporarily.
Again quoting from your letter:
>Get back to the main focus, the Bible, and use Dr's books
>as he originally intended, as aids to understanding the Bible,
>not as bibles in themselves.
I agree that getting back to the Bible is the main focus. It's just that God's method, initiated in 1942, for doing this is PFAL. The God-breathed PFAL writings pave the way to the Bible like no mis-copies/translations/versions of men. We can't wing it on our own, merely with our English versions, concordances and interlinears, and then expect to manifest God's intended results of full power.
Even Bullinger missed SIT by miles and he worked deep into the Greek and Hebrew!
Partial PFAL mastery equals partial power. Full, spiritual PFAL mastery equals full power. I still want to raise the dead. Don't you?
When I returned to a serious study of Dr's books I found out very quickly that I had never come even close to really mastering them. This has been very humbling, but also very delightful. We are sitting on a diamond mine, just waiting to be worked... or should I say re-worked?
Thanks Mike. Now I have new incentive for getting the tripod for my telescope fixed. You are so far OUT THERE, it may take years to find you. Zixar! Where are you!? We need all availabe resources to search for Mike.
Maybe Mike is aboard the USS Enterprise. He has apparently gone where no man has gone before...
Next time Mike, tie a rope around your waist so we can pull you back before it's too late.
Didn't somebody post a picture of Mike in a thread called "Caption Contest"? I think it was the one of the man with his head up his a$$.
Steve! is partly right about "cognitive dissonance," and a little reading up will probably refresh his understanding. Although there are several more possible outcomes than the one he describes, he does the discussion a great service by introducing the concept.
Here is a snippet pulled from one of the many websites that offer information about this fascinating and relevant behavioral phenemonon:
quote: Cognitive dissonance was first investigated by Leon Festinger and associates, arising out of a participant observation study of a cult, which believed that the earth was going to be destroyed by a flood, and what happened to its members — particularly the really committed ones who had given up their homes and jobs to work for the cult — when the flood did not happen.
While fringe members were more inclined to recognise that they had made fools of themselves and to "put it down to experience", committed members were more likely to re-interpret the evidence to show that they were right all along (the earth was not destroyed because of the faithfulness of the cult members).
What would really be interesting to know is how some people reach the "level of commitment" that requires a rational mind to serve a delusion, despite a world of solid and contradictory evidence. Maybe Mike can fill us in. Was it the 'shrooms you did in '71?
"You don't really live until you find something worth dying for." - Jesus
[This message was edited by QamiQazi on December 28, 2002 at 10:18.]
I think Gods origional *command* (if you will) was for all men was to love Him with all their heart souls minds and strength and to love others as themselves (paraphrasing here, it's been a few years...).
It seems like vic missed the mark alot more than some folks want to discuss up front and that is sad.
But this in and of itself is not that horrible a thing (really and truly), because we are all sinners and are going to screw up a plenty.
But when you couple ol vics lack of mastery of basic Christian principles (such as honesty and self control) with the fact that ol vic was the *leader* (if you will) of a religious group that touted the *more than abundant life* and had great influence upon the minds and lives of thousands, then I am left puzzling to myself, was vic the *best* God found to promote his message to the world? And I have to say, no. Did God take any time at all making this decision or was it one of those off the top of his head thype deals? The reason I am saying this is because I fail to see the requisite good works and resultant good fruits that follow men of
God from ol vics message and ministry and am hard pressed to find a shred of genuine Christian character in his successor.
Sorry, not buying it Mike, it's over, we're just hanging around to hear the fat lady sing.
There's no way we would have ever gotten to SIT, Interpretation, and Prophecy without God's extra-biblical help via the revelation of PFAL. Likewise, there's no way we're ever going to master the other manifestations by mastering any English version. It's the PFAL books we were told to master.*
*italics for emphasis were added by Oakspear
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt up to this point Mike, but no longer.
There's no way we would have ever gotten to SIT, etc, without PFAL? Are you telling me that there is no one outside of those who learned about SIT etc from PFAL who can speak in tongues, or do it "accuractely"? What? The BIBLE isn't good enough? What about BG Leonard? What about Stiles, who taught VP!!!?, what about the first century Corinthians?
Now I happen to agree with you, and by extension VP, that no translation can properly be called The Word of God. Even well meaning people will insert their own views, however inadvertantly, into their translations. Add that to the differences among the oldest texts, and you have the element of doubt in there. VP articulated something that, although well known among translaters, etc, was not considered by regular folks: that the bible as originally written is different from the translations available today.
You say "there's no way we're ever going to master the other manifestations by mastering any English version...". I infer from that statement you believe that English translations are sufficiently flawed as to prevent mastering the bible, or any portion of it.
You then say "...It's the PFAL books we were told to master".
You've laid it out pretty clearly. Don't attempt to master the bible written in English, because it's flawed; master a class put together by VP Wierwille which is called by you "revelation". Since it is "revelation", and it exists pretty much in it's original form (the tapes and books are still available after all) it will of necessity be pure Word of God, as the bibles we have are not.
Am I misunderstanding anything?
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
bold type and italics within quotes are added by me for emphasis
quote:...there is nothing ever preventing God from saying to a believer "Take a note. Write this down." I think God did precisely that with Dr because Dr often said so...
Alright! VP received revelation because VP said that VP received revelation!
quote:How else are we to handle those statements of Dr's on pages 116 and 34 of the Green Book? On page 83 of the PFAL book he even uses the phrase "God-breathed" to describe SOME of his own writings, albeit well hidden in complicated grammar.
"How else are we to handle it?" How about He was wrong?! anyone with a copy of the "Green Book" want to post a the lines that Mike is referring to?
quote:Such "given-by-revelation-from-God" kind of writings are WORTH mastering. That's what Dr. said we were to do in his dying last words to us: to master certain things which he (really God) wrote. I intend to obey, feelings or not.
quote:Dr. said "Thus saith the Lord" on many occasions in his writings and tapes. I just mentioned three. There are many others. What are we to do with them? Ignore them? Not me! Not any longer.
Ignore them? Hardly. But VP's words must be given the scrutiny that everything else must. Some of what he taught was true, some was not. Someone can say "thus saith the Lord, if what they are saying is what the bible says, not otherwise
quote:"Dear Mike,
I really think that going back to the original God-breathed Word is where to go."
This is impossible without PFAL. Without the necessary revelation of PFAL all versions are counterfeits, and all students of such are doomed to mere churchianity with no real power to do all the things Jesus Christ did.
quote:If God wanted us to be mastering some version, then why did Dr tell us to master something else?
Oh, I don't know, because he craved power? Why did he tell us in PFAL about burning all his commentaries and criticize those who didn't go back to the bible, but read around it?
quote:We don't have that 1942 promise addressed to us like Dr did...
quote:...What are we going to find in our own research that God didn't already show Dr in that 40 plus year project?
What? Is it no longer possible to learn anything new? "Doctor's" works are the end of knowledge?
quote:All versions are man-breathed aids to understand the original Bible. What we must get clear on is the difference between man-breathed aids to the Bible and God-breathed aids to the Bible. Which of those two would you choose? God has blessed us with the latter, PFAL. Because this aid is directly from God
Holy idolatry Batman! If VP's "keys to understanding the bible" are "directly from God", why couldn't the translators be "tapped in" as well?
quote:...getting back to the Bible is the main focus. It's just that God's method, initiated in 1942, for doing this is PFAL. The God-breathed PFAL writings pave the way to the Bible like no mis-copies/translations/versions of men.
Need I say more?
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
...that VP Wierwille was receiving anything from God, other than his own word?
The evidence seems to point to him not having received PFAL by revelation, but by reading the works of others. What is there in PFAL that isn't already covered by B.G. Leonard's class or Bullinger's writings, or other sources? Some of his doctrinal conclusions certainly, but it seems to me that you are saying that what was God-breathed was the keys for getting to the original "Word of God" that Wierwille taught in PFAL.
So do you have any reason to believe that PFAL (and any other of Wierwille's works) is God-breathed other than Wierwille's word for it?
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Page 116 is in the chapter entitled "How to Speak in Tongues". To avoid reproducing verbatim and violating the copyright, I will paraphrase.
Start of paraphrase
VPW is about to lay out the keys to speaking in tongues. He states that nobody gets missed if they have heard, believes and acts upon the Word of God. He instructs them to do exactly to the most minute detail, what he is about to tell them.
He tells them that if they only think it is VPW speaking, then they are out of luck, but if they know the words he is saying are the words of God then they will speak in tongues.
End of paraphrase
If you follow the implications here, VPW is equating himself to God.
Page 34 is in the chapter "The Unqualified Commitment" and is dealing with how to renew the mind within the more broad topic of confessing Romans 10:9,10.
Here VPW challenges them to change what they are feeding their minds. He challenges them to renew their minds according to the Word. By doing this they will find everything he has expressed to be true.
We all know that the collaterals were the food to put into our minds. By putting VPW's words into our minds, we would find his words to be true. It is a vicious circle of logic.
There is a good chance I missed the point Mike was making, so my apologies to him if I did. The above are simply my observations of the pages he referenced.
Firebee, you may be right on that. I was not sure so I called work to check and two people confirmed it was the red pill. Anyway, red or blue, you get the point. A great movie to see again anyway regardless of the color of the pill that set him free of the Matrix. The whole concept of that film was mindblowing.
If you think about it, TWI is a lot like the Matrix. Also, that other movie staring Jim Carey where he was put in a make believe world.
I want to apologize for my attitude toward you. I am not normally that way. If you read all my posts, you will find this to be true. You are entitled to your opinion, just as much as anyone here is. I am sorry for turning it personal. You seem to have totally disregarded all the evidence to the contrary of your view and thus, my above comments.
What evidence do you have that the ideas so many of us have are wrong concerning VPW's plagarism, sexual misconduct, etc?
This whole site is full of the reasons we have of our opinions. Please share with us what made you draw your conclusions.
You do write very well, however you are a bit long winded.
quote:There's no way we would have ever gotten to SIT, etc, without PFAL? Are you telling me that there is no one outside of those who learned about SIT etc from PFAL who can speak in tongues, or do it "accuractely"? What? The BIBLE isn't good enough? What about BG Leonard? What about Stiles, who taught VP!!!?, what about the first century Corinthians?
If it hadn't been for VPW and TWI-1, I "probably" would never have even heard of folks like B.G. Leonard, Stiles, or Bullinger. It was because of my involvement with TWI-1 that I know about these folks, even though they existed all along.
Perhaps what Mike is trying to say (I don't know, I'm just speculating) is that TWI and VPW played a role in getting us the Word when we needed it, like no other group or person was able to do. For example, even though B.G. Leonard's class has been around for decades, how many of us were exposed to it or learned about it? I never heard of it or come in contact with it, even up until now.
Thank God TWI-1 was around when I (and lots of others) needed to hear the Word, otherwise I might very well still be waiting, all these years and years.
If it hadn't been for VPW and TWI-1, I "probably" would never have even heard of folks like B.G. Leonard, Stiles, or Bullinger. It was because of my involvement with TWI-1 that I know about these folks, even though they existed all along. Perhaps what Mike is trying to say (I don't know, I'm just speculating) is that TWI and VPW played a role in getting us the Word when we needed it, like no other group or person was able to do.
quote: by MIke
You also wrote:
>I feel what you are doing with Dr. Wierwille's writings is shooting
>darts, missing the main target. Get back to the main focus, the Bible, and
>use Dr's books as he originally intended, as aids to understanding the Bible
The use of these books as aids to understanding the Bible is almost exactly what I am doing in all my activities. The only difference is I'd rephrase your last line: "use Dr's books as He (God) originally intended." I'd stress that these aids are from God Himself (1942 audible promise) not merely VP Wierwille (Green Book p.116).
Oldies,
You and I have had many differences of opinion on these forums, but I've never seen you claim that PFAL was God-breathed, or superior than written versions of the bible. You have always emphasized the positive aspects of your time in TWI, which you refer to as TWI-1.
Go back and read Mike's post that I quote from. He's pretty up front about stating that PFAL and VP's other work is God-breathed, not "played a role in getting us the Word when we needed it, like no other group or person was able to do", but equal to God's Word. Come on Oldies, as great as your experiences were, and as much Word of God that you learned and applied, did you ever think that VP was claiming that his work was on par with the bible?
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oldiesman, I think you give TWI way too much credit. When I took the class I was hungering and thirsting for righteousness, like many others were. Yes, I am very thankful for many things I learned, saddened by others. But to say, if TWI wasn’t around, "... I might very well still be waiting, all these years and years" really doesn’t say much for God. I mean, He says if you hunger and thirst after righteousness you will be filled. There is no disclaimer attached saying, provided TWI is in existence. God is so much bigger than that.
Mike, glad you have something to pour your life into; sorry you picked the "god-breathed" works of VPW. Weren’t the Mormons founded on the same assumption you are making?
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
I don't see anything in that verse about PFAL. God does the filling of those that hunger and thirst.
Are you saying that God almighty, creator of the heavens and earth, is not capable of satisfying our hunger without VPW? I don't believe God is limited to using Plagiarized material.
Since you feel that the copied works of VPW are God breathed, maybe you could contact Cambridge and Zondervan, etc. and have them include serveral new books in their next publication of the Bible. They could be called I VPW, II VPW, III VPW, IV VPW, V VPW, ETC. They would fit right in after Jude and before Revelation.
The 1942 promise did not happen. How do I know this? Because VPW cited supporting evidence to prove the promise did happen, and the supporting evidence has been shown to be false. That's why you have to ignore the snow on the gas pumps story, isn't it, Mike? Because the snow on the gas pumps story PROVES the LIE on which you've based your entire brand of Wierwille worship.
You see, VPW asked God to make it snow, and VPW said that God made it snow. He did not say it was a vision. He said it snowed. He did not say he asked God to "show him" snow. He said he asked God to MAKE IT snow.
It didn't snow. The weather reports from that day in that region prove it did not snow that day. VPW was lying. If he was lying about the snow (and he was), then I have no reason, none, to believe he was telling the truth about the promise.
That does not mean EVERYTHING he taught was bunk. But it does mean that the things he taught were of no more value than that of any other Christian teacher. (In fact, I would argue that it places a greater burden on Wierwille's doctrine, as he has already demonstrated a willingness to lie in God's name).
This is only a quick response. More thorough ones are in the works. As I get more time in the weeks to come I'd like to answer many more points, and in much more detail.
Rafael, the reason I believe the first half of the 1942 promise ("I will teach you my Word like it hasn't been known since the first century...") is because I, myself, was a beneficiary of the second half of the promise("...if you will teach it to others.")
I also saw many other beneficiaries. Almost every single GS PFAL grad here, at one time, was in agreement with this until they got talked out of it.
Even the CES people have put into some of their fundamental, charter-like documents that Dr DID in fact get more Word distributed around the world than any effort since the first century IN ONE PLACE.
Many other places over the centuries could offer some elements of this same truth, but Dr was the first, AND ONLY to get it all together in one place.
One place will have SIT accurate, but they shove the idolatrous trinity down the throats of their adherents as a REQUIREMENT. The same is the case in ALL other places: some great truths with some total baloney mixed in their written doctrinal requirements.
I didn't start out believing Dr as God's chosen spokesman this way I do now. For each and every element of truth Dr taught me, I had to check it out. I started out as a totally skeptical scientist and I insisted on checking it all through to the best of my ability until I believed him on that one point. Then I’d move on to another point.
I did this for 27 years, at the time often envying many of you, who believed and jumped in with both feet immediately, much quicker than I was able to. But I will say this: every single element of truth Dr taught passed my tests during those 27 years.
So, it was only then, after the practical benefits were there and the checking out was relatively finished, ONLY THEN did I adopt this belief in Dr being God's spokesman. I tried my best to do it like the noble Bereans of Acts 17. They were more cautious and methodical in their believing.
I could never suggest or desire that any of you quickly believe everything I say either.
As I suggested to one of you privately yesterday, might I suggest taking things in the way the noble Bereans did with Paul in Acts 17? Now, I'm NOT comparing myself with the Apostle Paul! (Did I catch you thinking that way about what I just said?) The Bereans didn't know that Paul was going to go on to be a superstar. But they listened with an open mind, and THEN searched the scriptures DAILY whether they were true, and FINALLY they believed.
In other words, they did NOT believe on the first occasion. It took time; at least days. They were noble. I try to imitate that. I don't believe anything impulsively anymore. It's check, check, check, THEN believe, if it all checks out.
The noble Bereans ALSO did listen with open mind, and not a hostile, contrarian, investigative mind that’s already made up. That’s what happens here a lot: pro-VPW material is met with an immediate attack, not an open mind. Then the opposite tack is often employed here in how anti-VPW material is greeted with open arms and never investigated with the same scrutiny as the pro.
Research Geek, who is well respected here, posted a spectacularly excellent page on rules of logic a few weeks ago where he complains that these rules are OFTEN being broken here. So, those of you who accepted what he said there, please don’t bug me about my complaint of the same. Double standards greatly diminish the credibility of those who hold them.
So, Rafael, for me it does NOT all boil down to a blind belief in the 1942 promise. Just the opposite, belief in the 1942 promise, for me only occurred after 27 years of hard work and careful thinking. It was the benefits and the fit that inspired my “carefully cultivated a set of rather extreme beliefs†the 1942 promise being one of them.
There's such a fine balance between gullibility and skepticism. Somewhere in between is a balanced approach and it seems the noble Bereans got it. Let’s aspire to higher standards.
Agape,
Mike
[This message was edited by Mike on December 29, 2002 at 12:34.]
[This message was edited by Mike on December 29, 2002 at 13:02.]
Re your comment: "There's such a fine balance between gullibility and skepticism."
While skepticism is an attribute we should all aspire to (IMHO) I can find nothing positive about being gullible. These are not balancing influences in our lives, one should be practiced and the other needs to be overcome.
We are not brain-washed heathen (well the "heathen" part might apply to some here). We've spent considerable time contemplating the same crap that you've come to embrace. We've just managed to discard it and move on with our lives.
The fact that you've been able to convince yourself of the dogma of the Huckster from Ohio does not neccessarily make you more enlightened than the rest of us. It might just mean that you're more gullible.
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T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
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coming to a theater near you...........
Indiana Jones and the Lost Teaching........
Harrison had some trouble with making the Nazi's good guys, but being the professional he his he got through it.....
Grizzy COLOR>SIZE>
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shazdancer
Mike, you assume an awful lot about us Gsers. I did confront VPW, very politely, about his celebrity status. Although I was never molested (having a NYer hubby with tattoos might've helped me there!), he definitely treated me like "just a woman" on more than one occasion. Just like VPW does to another woman at the beginning of the "lost last teaching" you have so reverently transcribed for us.
I also stood up to "leadership," long before there was an Internet. Sometimes it was for myself, sometimes it was for my fellow believer. I didn't know anyone who had been sexually violated (at least they didn't tell me) or I'd have been a lot more vocal, even with my pro-TWI mindset at the time.
Perhaps you think that Leonard and Stiles and Wierwille were all inspired by God, hence the apparent plagiarisms -- they all got the words from God. Sorry, I don't buy it, having seen with my own eyes word-for-word plagiarism where other words would have been more suitable. Anyway, we were taught in PFAL (which you laud so highly) that God would reveal His Word to men, and they would write it down using their own vocabularies. Therefore, a word-for-word copy by different men should not occur if there is truly revelation from God.
VPW and I have different ideas about what "the joy of serving" is. He seems to think it is about teaching people the precepts of PFAL, and thereby meeting people's "needs." I think it is about meeting their needs (sick, poor, downtrodden) with what they NEED (healthcare, food, compassion), and being an open book about what I believe. Kinda like that guy Jesus. It brings me joy -- not the adrenaline rush of preaching at people (which is occasionally necessary also), but the joy of secretly helping someone else's life get better.
Regards,
shaz
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Mike
Below is a set of letters consisting of a short note from an old friend of mine, and my response to her. She's a Corps grad, but I've changed her name. This essay on Dr's writings picks up where an earlier essay (titled "Discovery") that appeared on this thread left off. This one deals with our proper response to the "discovery" of Dr's Last/Lost Teaching. Should we, or should we not obey Dr's instructions to master the PFAL books? That's what it all boils down to.
Agape,
Mike
****************************************************
Dear Mike,
I really think that going back to the original
God-breathed Word is where to go. I feel what you
are doing with Dr. Wierwille's writings is shooting
darts, missing the main target. Get back to the
main focus, the Bible, and use Dr's books as he
originally intended, as aids to understanding the
Bible, not as bibles in themselves.
Much Love,
Linda
Dear Linda,
I hear you. I understand your feelings. I have felt them myself many times. When I look around at what everyone else is doing, there sometimes seems to be a ring of fringe wackiness in some of what I've said about Dr's books and the mastering of them. It is sometimes very uncomfortable to me as well as to you.
What you've said lines up well with everything we came to understand from our training in The Way, as well as with a time honored tradition of our modern culture of denominational churches. However, I believe what we originally received from our training was only partial. Our understanding still needs to mature and progress from a sense knowledge understanding to a spiritual understanding. This is what Dr's mandate to master the books is really all about.
One thing we were taught is that tradition is often engineered by the god of this world, and that any challenges to tradition with the truth of God's Word are met with retaliation by the adversary. Splitfoot has all sorts of methods to generate feelings of trepidation in the mind of a tradition challenger. That is why I'm bracing myself against these uncomfortable feelings and pressing on in the direction of PFAL book mastery. This is what we were instructed to do by Dr. Wierwille in his dying last words to us.
God has nine manifestations with which to interact with us, and there is nothing ever preventing God from saying to a believer "Take a note. Write this down." I think God did precisely that with Dr because Dr often said so, and we enjoyed the resultant profit immensely. How else are we to handle those statements of Dr's on pages 116 and 34 of the Green Book? On page 83 of the PFAL book he even uses the phrase "God-breathed" to describe SOME of his own writings, albeit well hidden in complicated grammar.
Such "given-by-revelation-from-God" kind of writings are WORTH mastering. That's what Dr. said we were to do in his dying last words to us: to master certain things which he (really God) wrote. I intend to obey, feelings or not.
Dr. said "Thus saith the Lord" on many occasions in his writings and tapes. I just mentioned three. There are many others. What are we to do with them? Ignore them? Not me! Not any longer.
At 10:02 AM 9/17/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Mike, I really think that going back to the original
>God-breathed Word is where to go.
This is impossible without PFAL. We don't HAVE the original God-breathed Word to go to. With the King James, a Concordance, Interlinear, etc. you can go only as far as the PFAL principles still residing in your mind will take you. How much has leaked out? How much of the total did you get in the first place? How much was actually mastered? A partial mastery of PFAL, partially leaked out over the years, means you can't make it all the way back to the original Word Of God. How far do you want to go?
I want to go all the way, so I must obey Dr's final instructions. I'm not happy with a partial access to the original Bible. I'm going to master the GOD-BREATHED teaching of the Bible we got in PFAL so that I am ABLE to feed from the original Bible in a God-designed way, not in a traditional way.
In the class (segment 16, page 127 in the book) Dr. says:
"No translation, no translation, and I want you to listen
very carefully; for no translation, and by the way that's
all we have today at best are translations. No translation
may properly be called The Word Of God... ..no translation!"
Then a minute later he repeats:
"Now I said that no translation, no translation, let alone
a version, no translation may properly be called The Word
Of God..."
Then several minutes later he hits it again:
"And in this class on Power For Abundant Living, when I
refer to The Word Of God I may hold the King James Version
or I may hold some other version and point to it; I do not
mean that version. I mean that Word of God which was
originally given when holy men of God spake as they were
moved by the Holy Spirit."
So to the opening of your letter: "I really think that going back to the original God-breathed Word is where to go" I must agree. That's where I want to go. That is the goal. However, the God provided method for accomplishing that goal (promised in 1942) is to take PFAL and then to master it as we were instructed.
The method which denominational tradition provides us for research is an assortment of various printed versions. But no translation may properly be called The Word Of God, let alone a version. That means translations and versions are counterfeits! They may be close at times, but counterfeits none the less!
This is such an important concept that Dr. says the phrase "no translation" a full 8 times in the first couple of minutes into that segment to drive it home. The adversary has had 2000 years to damage manuscripts, languages, traditions and cultural customs, thus rendering ALL versions horribly impotent. Good for beginner students, but lousy for learning the power.
We were taught that the moment we add a word, subtract a word, or change a word then we no longer have The Word left. The process of translating manuscripts and then producing a version involves MUCH addition, subtraction, and changing. In a translation almost ALL the words are changed!!!
Without the necessary revelation of PFAL all versions are counterfeits, and all students of such are doomed to mere churchianity with no real power to do all the things Jesus Christ did. An occasionally answered prayer does not compare to "all nine all the time."
Some versions of the Bible are useful and essential to beginning students of the scriptures, but we, mature PFAL grads, should be way past that stage of development. If God wanted us to be mastering some version, then why did Dr tell us to master something else? Do we want to bet everything that Dr's last words to us were worthless?
Oh sure, we grads can still get lots of warm feelings, and also some practical advice from the KJV or NIV, but the adversary's targets for damage in the text are where we might learn the full power. Plus, without PFAL mastery, our winging it in rightly dividing our KJV version may go into total error. We don't have that 1942 promise addressed to us like Dr did. What are we going to find in our own research that God didn't already show Dr in that 40 plus year project?
There's no way we would have ever gotten to SIT, Interpretation, and Prophecy without God's extra-biblical help via the revelation of PFAL. Likewise, there's no way we're ever going to master the other manifestations by mastering any English version. It's the PFAL books we were told to master.
I have to compare two feelings. Let's call them (A) and (B):
(A) The discomfort of not being able to do all the things Jesus Christ did and greater, but having the nice feelings of playing along with old denominational traditions and working primarily with culturally accepted "versions."
(B) The discomfort of defying tradition and following the instructions of my father in the Word, mastering PFAL, and THEN having a real mastery of the Bible along with the full power.
I'll take the latter (B); it's only temporarily uncomfortable.
To accept the former (A) means to ignore all those "Thus saith the Lord" statements of Dr's, and to ignore his dying last words to us. That is why I write these things. So that people can make this decision fully knowledgeable of the implications. If you study Dr's Last/Lost Teaching you will see he is saying "Pick (B)"
You also wrote:
>I feel what you are doing with Dr. Wierwille's writings is shooting
>darts, missing the main target. Get back to the main focus, the Bible, and
>use Dr's books as he originally intended, as aids to understanding the Bible
The use of these books as aids to understanding the Bible is almost exactly what I am doing in all my activities. The only difference is I'd rephrase your last line: "use Dr's books as He (God) originally intended." I'd stress that these aids are from God Himself (1942 audible promise) not merely VP Wierwille (Green Book p.116).
All versions are man-breathed aids to understand the original Bible. What we must get clear on is the difference between man-breathed aids to the Bible and God-breathed aids to the Bible. Which of those two would you choose? God has blessed us with the latter, PFAL. Because this aid is directly from God, it is pure, trustworthy, worth mastering, and irreplaceable. We must accept no substitutes.
But unfortunately, mere substitutes are exactly what almost the entire body of PFAL grads have been seduced into. Most have drifted into KJV idolatry, and alternative clone classes have abounded all over. We've all walked away from the loaf, and are picking at crumbs! I include myself in there, but I'm going back to the loaf, the bread of life from God, baked fresh in rather recent decades, and right before our very eyes. We just got talked out of it... temporarily.
Again quoting from your letter:
>Get back to the main focus, the Bible, and use Dr's books
>as he originally intended, as aids to understanding the Bible,
>not as bibles in themselves.
I agree that getting back to the Bible is the main focus. It's just that God's method, initiated in 1942, for doing this is PFAL. The God-breathed PFAL writings pave the way to the Bible like no mis-copies/translations/versions of men. We can't wing it on our own, merely with our English versions, concordances and interlinears, and then expect to manifest God's intended results of full power.
Even Bullinger missed SIT by miles and he worked deep into the Greek and Hebrew!
Partial PFAL mastery equals partial power. Full, spiritual PFAL mastery equals full power. I still want to raise the dead. Don't you?
When I returned to a serious study of Dr's books I found out very quickly that I had never come even close to really mastering them. This has been very humbling, but also very delightful. We are sitting on a diamond mine, just waiting to be worked... or should I say re-worked?
Agape,
Mike
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SocketCreep
Thanks Mike. Now I have new incentive for getting the tripod for my telescope fixed. You are so far OUT THERE, it may take years to find you. Zixar! Where are you!? We need all availabe resources to search for Mike.
Maybe Mike is aboard the USS Enterprise. He has apparently gone where no man has gone before...
Next time Mike, tie a rope around your waist so we can pull you back before it's too late.
Didn't somebody post a picture of Mike in a thread called "Caption Contest"? I think it was the one of the man with his head up his a$$.
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QamiQazi
Steve! is partly right about "cognitive dissonance," and a little reading up will probably refresh his understanding. Although there are several more possible outcomes than the one he describes, he does the discussion a great service by introducing the concept.
Here is a snippet pulled from one of the many websites that offer information about this fascinating and relevant behavioral phenemonon:
What would really be interesting to know is how some people reach the "level of commitment" that requires a rational mind to serve a delusion, despite a world of solid and contradictory evidence. Maybe Mike can fill us in. Was it the 'shrooms you did in '71?
"You don't really live until you find something worth dying for." - Jesus
[This message was edited by QamiQazi on December 28, 2002 at 10:18.]
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Wonton Soup
I think Gods origional *command* (if you will) was for all men was to love Him with all their heart souls minds and strength and to love others as themselves (paraphrasing here, it's been a few years...).
It seems like vic missed the mark alot more than some folks want to discuss up front and that is sad.
But this in and of itself is not that horrible a thing (really and truly), because we are all sinners and are going to screw up a plenty.
But when you couple ol vics lack of mastery of basic Christian principles (such as honesty and self control) with the fact that ol vic was the *leader* (if you will) of a religious group that touted the *more than abundant life* and had great influence upon the minds and lives of thousands, then I am left puzzling to myself, was vic the *best* God found to promote his message to the world? And I have to say, no. Did God take any time at all making this decision or was it one of those off the top of his head thype deals? The reason I am saying this is because I fail to see the requisite good works and resultant good fruits that follow men of
God from ol vics message and ministry and am hard pressed to find a shred of genuine Christian character in his successor.
Sorry, not buying it Mike, it's over, we're just hanging around to hear the fat lady sing.
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Oakspear
*italics for emphasis were added by Oakspear
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt up to this point Mike, but no longer.
There's no way we would have ever gotten to SIT, etc, without PFAL? Are you telling me that there is no one outside of those who learned about SIT etc from PFAL who can speak in tongues, or do it "accuractely"? What? The BIBLE isn't good enough? What about BG Leonard? What about Stiles, who taught VP!!!?, what about the first century Corinthians?
Now I happen to agree with you, and by extension VP, that no translation can properly be called The Word of God. Even well meaning people will insert their own views, however inadvertantly, into their translations. Add that to the differences among the oldest texts, and you have the element of doubt in there. VP articulated something that, although well known among translaters, etc, was not considered by regular folks: that the bible as originally written is different from the translations available today.
You say "there's no way we're ever going to master the other manifestations by mastering any English version...". I infer from that statement you believe that English translations are sufficiently flawed as to prevent mastering the bible, or any portion of it.
You then say "...It's the PFAL books we were told to master".
You've laid it out pretty clearly. Don't attempt to master the bible written in English, because it's flawed; master a class put together by VP Wierwille which is called by you "revelation". Since it is "revelation", and it exists pretty much in it's original form (the tapes and books are still available after all) it will of necessity be pure Word of God, as the bibles we have are not.
Am I misunderstanding anything?
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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Oakspear
IDOLATRY ANYONE?
bold type and italics within quotes are added by me for emphasis
Alright! VP received revelation because VP said that VP received revelation!
"How else are we to handle it?" How about He was wrong?! anyone with a copy of the "Green Book" want to post a the lines that Mike is referring to?
Ignore them? Hardly. But VP's words must be given the scrutiny that everything else must. Some of what he taught was true, some was not. Someone can say "thus saith the Lord, if what they are saying is what the bible says, not otherwise
Oh, I don't know, because he craved power? Why did he tell us in PFAL about burning all his commentaries and criticize those who didn't go back to the bible, but read around it?
What? Is it no longer possible to learn anything new? "Doctor's" works are the end of knowledge?
Holy idolatry Batman! If VP's "keys to understanding the bible" are "directly from God", why couldn't the translators be "tapped in" as well?
Need I say more?
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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Oakspear
...that VP Wierwille was receiving anything from God, other than his own word?
The evidence seems to point to him not having received PFAL by revelation, but by reading the works of others. What is there in PFAL that isn't already covered by B.G. Leonard's class or Bullinger's writings, or other sources? Some of his doctrinal conclusions certainly, but it seems to me that you are saying that what was God-breathed was the keys for getting to the original "Word of God" that Wierwille taught in PFAL.
So do you have any reason to believe that PFAL (and any other of Wierwille's works) is God-breathed other than Wierwille's word for it?
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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SocketCreep
Mike, Take the RED pill.
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firebee
I thought it was the blue pill
Gotta see the movie again, but I will take your word for it
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SocketCreep
Page 116 is in the chapter entitled "How to Speak in Tongues". To avoid reproducing verbatim and violating the copyright, I will paraphrase.
Start of paraphrase
VPW is about to lay out the keys to speaking in tongues. He states that nobody gets missed if they have heard, believes and acts upon the Word of God. He instructs them to do exactly to the most minute detail, what he is about to tell them.
He tells them that if they only think it is VPW speaking, then they are out of luck, but if they know the words he is saying are the words of God then they will speak in tongues.
End of paraphrase
If you follow the implications here, VPW is equating himself to God.
Page 34 is in the chapter "The Unqualified Commitment" and is dealing with how to renew the mind within the more broad topic of confessing Romans 10:9,10.
Here VPW challenges them to change what they are feeding their minds. He challenges them to renew their minds according to the Word. By doing this they will find everything he has expressed to be true.
We all know that the collaterals were the food to put into our minds. By putting VPW's words into our minds, we would find his words to be true. It is a vicious circle of logic.
There is a good chance I missed the point Mike was making, so my apologies to him if I did. The above are simply my observations of the pages he referenced.
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SocketCreep
Firebee, you may be right on that. I was not sure so I called work to check and two people confirmed it was the red pill. Anyway, red or blue, you get the point. A great movie to see again anyway regardless of the color of the pill that set him free of the Matrix. The whole concept of that film was mindblowing.
If you think about it, TWI is a lot like the Matrix. Also, that other movie staring Jim Carey where he was put in a make believe world.
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SocketCreep
Mike,
I want to apologize for my attitude toward you. I am not normally that way. If you read all my posts, you will find this to be true. You are entitled to your opinion, just as much as anyone here is. I am sorry for turning it personal. You seem to have totally disregarded all the evidence to the contrary of your view and thus, my above comments.
What evidence do you have that the ideas so many of us have are wrong concerning VPW's plagarism, sexual misconduct, etc?
This whole site is full of the reasons we have of our opinions. Please share with us what made you draw your conclusions.
You do write very well, however you are a bit long winded.
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firebee
The Jim Carey movie you mentioned was 'Truman' I think
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oldiesman
If it hadn't been for VPW and TWI-1, I "probably" would never have even heard of folks like B.G. Leonard, Stiles, or Bullinger. It was because of my involvement with TWI-1 that I know about these folks, even though they existed all along.
Perhaps what Mike is trying to say (I don't know, I'm just speculating) is that TWI and VPW played a role in getting us the Word when we needed it, like no other group or person was able to do. For example, even though B.G. Leonard's class has been around for decades, how many of us were exposed to it or learned about it? I never heard of it or come in contact with it, even up until now.
Thank God TWI-1 was around when I (and lots of others) needed to hear the Word, otherwise I might very well still be waiting, all these years and years.
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firebee
it was the red pill
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Oakspear
Oldies,
You and I have had many differences of opinion on these forums, but I've never seen you claim that PFAL was God-breathed, or superior than written versions of the bible. You have always emphasized the positive aspects of your time in TWI, which you refer to as TWI-1.
Go back and read Mike's post that I quote from. He's pretty up front about stating that PFAL and VP's other work is God-breathed, not "played a role in getting us the Word when we needed it, like no other group or person was able to do", but equal to God's Word. Come on Oldies, as great as your experiences were, and as much Word of God that you learned and applied, did you ever think that VP was claiming that his work was on par with the bible?
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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JesseJoe
Oldiesman, I think you give TWI way too much credit. When I took the class I was hungering and thirsting for righteousness, like many others were. Yes, I am very thankful for many things I learned, saddened by others. But to say, if TWI wasn’t around, "... I might very well still be waiting, all these years and years" really doesn’t say much for God. I mean, He says if you hunger and thirst after righteousness you will be filled. There is no disclaimer attached saying, provided TWI is in existence. God is so much bigger than that.
Mike, glad you have something to pour your life into; sorry you picked the "god-breathed" works of VPW. Weren’t the Mormons founded on the same assumption you are making?
Jesse
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SocketCreep
Oldies and Mike
Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
I don't see anything in that verse about PFAL. God does the filling of those that hunger and thirst.
Are you saying that God almighty, creator of the heavens and earth, is not capable of satisfying our hunger without VPW? I don't believe God is limited to using Plagiarized material.
Since you feel that the copied works of VPW are God breathed, maybe you could contact Cambridge and Zondervan, etc. and have them include serveral new books in their next publication of the Bible. They could be called I VPW, II VPW, III VPW, IV VPW, V VPW, ETC. They would fit right in after Jude and before Revelation.
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Raf
It all goes back to the 1942 promise.
Well, here's my nickel.
The 1942 promise did not happen. How do I know this? Because VPW cited supporting evidence to prove the promise did happen, and the supporting evidence has been shown to be false. That's why you have to ignore the snow on the gas pumps story, isn't it, Mike? Because the snow on the gas pumps story PROVES the LIE on which you've based your entire brand of Wierwille worship.
You see, VPW asked God to make it snow, and VPW said that God made it snow. He did not say it was a vision. He said it snowed. He did not say he asked God to "show him" snow. He said he asked God to MAKE IT snow.
It didn't snow. The weather reports from that day in that region prove it did not snow that day. VPW was lying. If he was lying about the snow (and he was), then I have no reason, none, to believe he was telling the truth about the promise.
That does not mean EVERYTHING he taught was bunk. But it does mean that the things he taught were of no more value than that of any other Christian teacher. (In fact, I would argue that it places a greater burden on Wierwille's doctrine, as he has already demonstrated a willingness to lie in God's name).
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Mike
This is only a quick response. More thorough ones are in the works. As I get more time in the weeks to come I'd like to answer many more points, and in much more detail.
Rafael, the reason I believe the first half of the 1942 promise ("I will teach you my Word like it hasn't been known since the first century...") is because I, myself, was a beneficiary of the second half of the promise("...if you will teach it to others.")
I also saw many other beneficiaries. Almost every single GS PFAL grad here, at one time, was in agreement with this until they got talked out of it.
Even the CES people have put into some of their fundamental, charter-like documents that Dr DID in fact get more Word distributed around the world than any effort since the first century IN ONE PLACE.
Many other places over the centuries could offer some elements of this same truth, but Dr was the first, AND ONLY to get it all together in one place.
One place will have SIT accurate, but they shove the idolatrous trinity down the throats of their adherents as a REQUIREMENT. The same is the case in ALL other places: some great truths with some total baloney mixed in their written doctrinal requirements.
I didn't start out believing Dr as God's chosen spokesman this way I do now. For each and every element of truth Dr taught me, I had to check it out. I started out as a totally skeptical scientist and I insisted on checking it all through to the best of my ability until I believed him on that one point. Then I’d move on to another point.
I did this for 27 years, at the time often envying many of you, who believed and jumped in with both feet immediately, much quicker than I was able to. But I will say this: every single element of truth Dr taught passed my tests during those 27 years.
So, it was only then, after the practical benefits were there and the checking out was relatively finished, ONLY THEN did I adopt this belief in Dr being God's spokesman. I tried my best to do it like the noble Bereans of Acts 17. They were more cautious and methodical in their believing.
I could never suggest or desire that any of you quickly believe everything I say either.
As I suggested to one of you privately yesterday, might I suggest taking things in the way the noble Bereans did with Paul in Acts 17? Now, I'm NOT comparing myself with the Apostle Paul! (Did I catch you thinking that way about what I just said?) The Bereans didn't know that Paul was going to go on to be a superstar. But they listened with an open mind, and THEN searched the scriptures DAILY whether they were true, and FINALLY they believed.
In other words, they did NOT believe on the first occasion. It took time; at least days. They were noble. I try to imitate that. I don't believe anything impulsively anymore. It's check, check, check, THEN believe, if it all checks out.
The noble Bereans ALSO did listen with open mind, and not a hostile, contrarian, investigative mind that’s already made up. That’s what happens here a lot: pro-VPW material is met with an immediate attack, not an open mind. Then the opposite tack is often employed here in how anti-VPW material is greeted with open arms and never investigated with the same scrutiny as the pro.
Research Geek, who is well respected here, posted a spectacularly excellent page on rules of logic a few weeks ago where he complains that these rules are OFTEN being broken here. So, those of you who accepted what he said there, please don’t bug me about my complaint of the same. Double standards greatly diminish the credibility of those who hold them.
So, Rafael, for me it does NOT all boil down to a blind belief in the 1942 promise. Just the opposite, belief in the 1942 promise, for me only occurred after 27 years of hard work and careful thinking. It was the benefits and the fit that inspired my “carefully cultivated a set of rather extreme beliefs†the 1942 promise being one of them.
There's such a fine balance between gullibility and skepticism. Somewhere in between is a balanced approach and it seems the noble Bereans got it. Let’s aspire to higher standards.
Agape,
Mike
[This message was edited by Mike on December 29, 2002 at 12:34.]
[This message was edited by Mike on December 29, 2002 at 13:02.]
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Mike
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[This message was edited by Mike on December 29, 2002 at 12:37.]
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George Aar
Mike,
Re your comment: "There's such a fine balance between gullibility and skepticism."
While skepticism is an attribute we should all aspire to (IMHO) I can find nothing positive about being gullible. These are not balancing influences in our lives, one should be practiced and the other needs to be overcome.
We are not brain-washed heathen (well the "heathen" part might apply to some here). We've spent considerable time contemplating the same crap that you've come to embrace. We've just managed to discard it and move on with our lives.
The fact that you've been able to convince yourself of the dogma of the Huckster from Ohio does not neccessarily make you more enlightened than the rest of us. It might just mean that you're more gullible.
geo.
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