"Mythtery" - brilliant! Do you mind if I use it or do you want royalties?
Tilda - toooo funny. Good to see you again.
Mike - you need to remember the diverse group of people you are addressing. Not everyone here reveres VP the way you do, probably fewer than you can count on one hand.
When I first left TWI, I was a defender of VP, not because of his teachings, but because I thought he was a genuinely sincere man who only wanted the best for his "kids" (gag me now). In the past two years, I have come to learn that he stole most of what he "researched", made Bill Clinton look like Prince Charming, and had a very, very dark side that only a few were witness to.
I'm not going to tell you to stop your appreciation of VP - just take off the rose-colored glasses and see things the way they really were. You'll be surprised how clear things appear when you're not seeing them through your "waybrain".
Hope R. color>size>face>
Rafe, I got a needle and a match - I could probably get that splinter out for ya pretty quick! I promise it won't hurt!
Now *there* is the classic one-liner that fits Wierwille to a tee!
Mike,
That you can bald-facedly reject the **OVERWHELMING** facts, witnesses' accounts and all other relevant info re: VPW as tho' its all a myth clearly illustrates your idolatrous worship of the man Victor Paul Wierwille. And yes Virginia, you do worship him; particularly when you absolutely refuse to see or admit to *any* of the wrongs about him, at least any that threaten to diminish his image of your 'Father in the Word', as tho' that image is necessary to hold on to in order for you to "do the Word".
And if that is the kind of 'Word of God' that you have to offer, to quote directly from the PF of AL class, "No-o-o thanks! I wouldn't want to go to church with you!"
Why? You're too 'beaten down' with your 'less-than-abundant life' resulting from your blind loyalty and obedience to your dead idol, VPW. And the sad thing about all that is, you're at the point where you don't even see it, much less want to see it.
Thanks, but no thanks from me, as I don't need your steenkin' 'class'. Keep your green card.
Thanks for posting your material. I have never seen such a text book example of preaching one thing, yet actually doing the complete opposite of that which is taught. I never read or heard Victor Wierwille's last teaching until now. However, I am very familiar with some of the scriptures that were quoted. It was pretty obvious even back then that true Christian service was lacking in TWI. You only needed to see the people parading around with their name tags, Way Corps, College Division, Reverend ,etc, at TWI functions to see that the Way Ministry had lost sight of what it is to not be a respector of persons. Instead religious title and prestige was held in high esteem with TWI. What is really amazing about Victor’s last teaching specifically is the scriptures quoted Mark 10:35-45. The companion scriptures are Matthew 20:20-28 and Luke 22:20-30. Certainly these are wonderful scriptures describing and teaching about true service. However, is this what the Way denomination actually applied in their ministry?
Looking at the scriptures beginning in verse 37 we can clearly see the potential for a power struggle between the 12 disciples, specifically from James and John the sons of Zebedee. This clearly angered the other 10 in verse 40 and Jesus put out the flames of this potential for religious in fighting by saying the following in Mark 10:42-45.
42"You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all.
45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
NIV
Jesus clearly says that they were not to have a system of lords over God’s heritage like the Gentiles with one class above another and a hierarchy of religious power. In contrast, they were to serve one another in love. Nice words for Victor to quote, but did he actually do anything to stop the up coming power struggle within his own denomination which clearly was on the horizon? Actually, Victor Wierwille instead clearly faned the flames of this strife. He did this by first and foremost setting up a religious hierarchy of lords over God’s heritage just like Jesus warned against and said not to do. He set up a virtual smorgasborg of minions one over another. He had twig coordinators over leaves. Then he had branch leaders over twig coordinators. In some areas he had area and territory leaders over the branch leaders. Then he had limb leaders over the branch, area and territory leaders. Then he had region leaders over the limb leaders. Finally he had a trunk leader over the region and limb leaders with all the above leaders subordinate to him and his board of trustees. As time passed this religous hierarchy got more controlling with every passing year. Finally, when it was time to pass on the figurative mantle of TWI leadership he passed it on to someone that used his religious authority to persecute God’s people and squelch the spirit of God and the individual ministries of others.
Clearly, Victor Wierwille may have talked a good game, but by his actions he figuratively threw charcoal and poured lighter fluid on the flames of discord, indignation, strife and power hoarding within his own denomination. He more than any man is responsible for the sorry state that his denomination is in now.
he chuckles as he says "you can be born again and still live a lousy life ...ya know"
I guess he was a testament to that truth
thanks Sudo, nice choice and good sound editing
Mike, i have the advanced class on micro cassette and "The Book of Life" on film AND a proof set (still in plastic) of the "installment" 10/82 ....you want it all? Drop me a snail mail addy
I taped the advanced class and "borrowed" the "Book of Life" to get all corps names and addresses on film.....i believed i was functional in "saving the ministry" at the time
i have realized since, i can barely save myself
save yourself Mike
if anything is true, it's God's gig, he can figure it out or save it or kill it or whatever ...it's God's gig
Mike, i think you are in love with a period in your life! feeling old? trying to get back? sorry you've spent time and a wife and friends for the cause.....but what about you!!?? God loves YOU!!
Mike, it's time to take care of YOU!
We are o.k. We think .....don't wanna "lump" anybody
[This message was edited by OCD #1 on December 27, 2002 at 19:34.]
Having responded to Wierwille's "law of logic" and faulty " trichotomy," we must now critique his pneumatology.
Differentiating between the Holy Spirit and holy spirit is crucial to Wierwille's entire theology. This chapter will respond to his pneumatology on the following five points; (1)
plagiarism; (2) Wierwille's hermeneutical rule for interpreting pneuma ; (3) the inconsistencies amoung the editions of
Receiving the Holy Spirit Today ; (4) the personal pronouns of Jn. 14; 15; and 16; and; (5) Rom. 8:26.
Closing the chapter, questions are posed concerning another of Wierwille's
"laws," which says, "God can only give that which He is."
Attitude . Before addressing the particular arguments of Wierwille, a prevailing attitude of Wierwille's must be noted. That attitude is that he is, without doubt, correct in his interpretation of the Bible.
If he (Wierwille) lied about the snow in Tulsa and the gas pumps, what stopped him from misspeaking anything else?
hmmmm....the intro to the last great truth teaching that was missed by all the black hearts ....glad I wasn't "Dot" sitting there
funny thing is, Mike, you are proclaiming to be "thorough" about it and edited this material and can't see his disrespect, categorization/ownership and abuse of women in that very "intro"!!
wtf?
i sure hope you get happy and back to loving God, life and yourself!
Am I glad you came along. The GSC was getting boring. Yer posts are gonna shake this place up for awhile. Yoo got ballz.
Hey, GSers! This is what you've been waiting for for a long time. Just don't chase the guy off (though I doubt you could. He'll leave when HE wants, I'm sure). It seems as though some of you have been asking for this point of view for a long time. Don't blow it!
I'm going for popcorn. This is better than the discovery channel.
You should have heard the out loud laugh you just got out of me. Please pass the popcorn.
Mike:
One request please. If you care to comment further on this subject would you please condense and shorten your posts a bit. I think you can say the same thing with a lot less words. I read your first couple of posts in their entirety, but if you have any more long ones I may not have time to read them all. I am a busy guy. Thanks
I thank the ladies also. Maybe they are onto the fact that I am trying to help. A little women’s intuition?
I DID get negatively impacted myself. It took a lot of Word, love, and time to properly arrange my priorities. Assessing the relative strengths of positive impact and negative impact is not easy. It takes GREAT desire to get over it. I know!
Remember what Jesus said to the lame man who was sitting by the pool to get healed? He ASKED if he WANTED to get healed. Here he was lame for years and years, and sitting by a healing pool, YET Jesus felt a need to ask if he WANTED to be healed.
I know Dr had to have sin in his life. I know from God's perspective all sin is sin and the greatest is to love something more than God. We all have committed the greatest sin loads of times. I also know that from OUR perspective some sin hurts others in varying degrees. As we all rise up to get clear on what we want, get healed, and get as good at forgiving as Jesus was to Judas then this will no longer be a problem.
If, for something we can't forgive Dr, who brought us God's Word like no other could have, then who CAN we forgive. I think that we all will sooner or later WANT to get healed of everything that bugs us. However, we get tricked into getting "comfortable" in our pain. Jesus knew this and had to get the man into the desire mode. This is part of what Dr was talking about in the “needs and wants†area.
One constant theme here is "obedience" - not to God - not to the scriptures - but instead to Dr Weirwille. Specifically to his last teaching where he says to "take and Master PFAL". You say regarding this statement by VPW:
quote:"I can only obey God's first instruction to master PFAL, and then He can give me the next."
It was VPW who said this, but you say it was "God's first instruction". What shall we conculde then, that VPW is God ? or that God spoke when VPW spoke?
You also posted:
quote:"This is why God intervened in 1942 to give us the power we need to accurately see His written Word, and to accurately hear His voice in every situation. When we finally do master PFAL we will finally arrive at "all nine all the time."
I take this interventinon to mean the covenant that God supposedly made with VPW that resulted in PFAL.
You also posted in another place:
quote:"Now where is Christ in my postings? He’s hidden, but he’s revealed to anyone who follows Dr’s final instructions. The mind of Christ was put into those books[PFAL and collaterals] by God Himself so that we could totally absorb it. We will see this Christ only by obedience to God by way of His chosen spokesman. Master PFAL and you’ll see Christ like he “has not been known since the first century.â€
And also:
quote:"You might say that the mind of Christ is in your Bible. I used to think that, but slowly I realized that my KJV is not really the Bible, only approximation. I’m sure most of us have made corrections in ours and even scratched out a few places to correct some of its flaws. God gave Dr the PFAL revelations to TOTALLY correct this situation for us."
"...This is a huge debate: flawed remnants of scripture like the KJV or Stevens Text versus the fresh revelations from the 1942 promise"
Let me sum up what you are saying to us.
1. The scriptures are flawed and Christ cannot be fully known through them
2. To correct this situation God intervened in 1942 and made a covenant with VPW.
3. In 1942 through this covenant God gave PFAL to VPW and made VPW His apostle and prophet.
4. What VPW says in his books and on tape is the Word of God and should be obeyed.
5. PFAL totally corrects the problems with flawed nature of the Bible.
6. As a fresh revelation and for all practical purposes, PFAL supersedes and serves to replace the previous scriptures.
7. PFAL and VPW's other books are the only true and reliable written Word of God
8. It is only through mastery of PFAL and it's collaterals that Christ can be known.
Mike, Can you confirm that my list above is correct? Did I get anything wrong? I want to make sure that I am in no way misrepresenting what you are sharing with us here.
Goey
[This message was edited by Goey on December 28, 2002 at 7:36.]
9. That because of all of the previous Eight Sacred Points, The Teacher's sexual daliances (sp?) with all the "women of his kingdom", his copying and claiming undue credit for others works, and his desire for power and influence are not to be criticised nor condemned, and his reputation must be maintained and whitewashed, no matter the cost ...
simply because he "taught us the Word".
And I think that this is The Most Important Point of all ... to Mike anyway.
MIKE!!! God is NOT hidden!!! especially NOT in the collaterals, NOT even in Christianity
GOD IS NOT HIDDEN!
{breath} whoa!
in regards to the whole of time, you have narrowed "God" down to a micro organization, within another "organization" (christianity), which is relatively micro, in regards to the whole of time
For the sake of the benefit of the doubt, I will make one last comment directly to revrun Mike.
Mike, you said that docvic brought us God's Word like no other could have. That is the basic assumption behind TWI and its offsh!ts, and that assumption has been repeatedly demonstrated to be flawed. If, for example, you were even to go to the sources that veepee "allegedly" plagiarized from, you would see great portions of what would become PFAL. If you were to review B.G. Leonard's class, again you would see the source for PFAL. And B.G.'s class is still going strong! And keep in mind, it's not the Bible that I am rejecting. I am not rejecting God and His Word - I am rejecting VP's claim to the throne.
Everyone else - obviously we are conversing with someone in the throes of the psychological condition known as "cognitive dissonance", or perhaps some other mental illness. I am not really qualified to diagnose, but I do know enough about mental illness to recognize it when I see it.
Cognitive dissonance is when there are 2 conflicting concepts in a person's mind, and the mind struggles to make sense of them both, until ultimately completely rejecting one and vehemently adhering to the other.
In this case, Mike cannot accept that so many years of his life were wasted, and he cannot accept that the hero he idolizes is not the man he thought him to be. Therefore he is placing him on a pedestal even higher than that of Jesus Christ - docvic is MUCH more important to our day and time than Jesus Christ ever could be, according to everything that Pastor Mike has written.
Carrying on a conversation with a person with a mental illness is usually fruitless. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and it annoys the pig! (credit Mark Twain)
Being that Mike here is from SD and that being the SD that is reported by many as a some what paradise and not the SD that has ND for a northern border and that a discussion was started some time ago by Geek about a man in Ca that he found some rather troublesome comments concerning the word of Victor is the Word of God which lead to the posting of the sacred lost ultimate last teaching of the unbiblical most important biblical teacher since the apostles walked the face of the earth and should be placed right up there with Paul in revelation importance, I think I have tracked this back to we were warned by geek of the coming of this stuff...............
Now Steve, I see your unqualified comments to be the equal opposite extreme as to Mike’s comments. On the one hand we have the Mike’s of post TWI world, the ones that are willing to over look every possible sin of the man because he taught us some great stuff after all. Then we have the Steve’s, the you have to have a mental impairment; the proverbial you got to be nucking futs to believe what you are saying and then there are so many of the in betweenies we all can find our proper little slot to fit into!
I personally think that the legacy of VP will eventually go the way that he did, it will die out despite desperate efforts of some transmission components to commit their very breath to keeping the great one’s teachings alive. VP is dead and will give an account for the things he has done, as with all of us when the fire tries our works we will then be rewarded for what is left, now I am not saying that the huge piles of ashes around some’s lives won’t go unnoticed; but we will all have ashes around us.
Any way, talk about a scary look into the mind of what we were to some degree or another while we were *in* and the equally scary glimpse into what we all have become to some degree or another.
VP is not the message of the ages and doesn’t have to be the focus of the times! He is dead and let those that want to worship the spittle that came from his lips do so, let those that want to have the ever present battle of evil focused upon the sins of the man do so also; how ever no claims or statements to relieving one’s self upon the graves at the fountain should be public posted.............. please resort to private e-mails...........
Life is way to big and to important to be spent on the constant debates over VP saint or sinner, IMHO............ but the reality of the actually reaching out and helping some confused innie see the decay and depravation of what was once a great place filled with great followers of the Lord Jesus; despite the evils of the man that started it and regardless of his motives; that to me is present and exciting..........
Mike, I think that you and the people that agree with you are a very scary extreme.........some place in the middle sounds good to me.............thankful for the good that came my way and ....ed about the evil that came and hurt so many.........................
"I'm still mildly surprised that you honestly think that God's resources on earth are so meager, and his plans that poorly-thought-out, that ONLY vpw could have gotten the job done, that ONLY vpw could teach the Bible to all those people"
Yes, I honestly think that. God's resources are sufficient, but they don't look that way to us from the 5-senses. Remember who governs the 5-senses realm, not God.
Remember that God had to wait some 4000 years for one person to believe the promise of Genesis 3:16 and God tried and tried to get the mystery throuugh to Peter but Peter wasn't big enough yet. God had to work with a man that most Christians of the time didn't like, Saul. Probably many said the same kinds of things about Paul that we hear on GS about Dr about Paul.
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T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
Posted Images
RottieGrrrl
Yeah hit me with another one Sudo. I forgot what those tapes sounded like. LOL. I can't believe how DATED that sounds!
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
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Steve!
The Most Holy Reverend Mike hath said:
He's a Geer boy! That certainly fits.
I suppose I'd best watch my back from now on.
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Raf
Hey, I was a Geer splinter!
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Hope R.
QQ -
"Mythtery" - brilliant! Do you mind if I use it or do you want royalties?
Tilda - toooo funny. Good to see you again.
Mike - you need to remember the diverse group of people you are addressing. Not everyone here reveres VP the way you do, probably fewer than you can count on one hand.
When I first left TWI, I was a defender of VP, not because of his teachings, but because I thought he was a genuinely sincere man who only wanted the best for his "kids" (gag me now). In the past two years, I have come to learn that he stole most of what he "researched", made Bill Clinton look like Prince Charming, and had a very, very dark side that only a few were witness to.
I'm not going to tell you to stop your appreciation of VP - just take off the rose-colored glasses and see things the way they really were. You'll be surprised how clear things appear when you're not seeing them through your "waybrain".
Hope R. color>size>face>
Rafe, I got a needle and a match - I could probably get that splinter out for ya pretty quick! I promise it won't hurt!
Happy New Year!!!
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GarthP2000
Now *there* is the classic one-liner that fits Wierwille to a tee!
Mike,
That you can bald-facedly reject the **OVERWHELMING** facts, witnesses' accounts and all other relevant info re: VPW as tho' its all a myth clearly illustrates your idolatrous worship of the man Victor Paul Wierwille. And yes Virginia, you do worship him; particularly when you absolutely refuse to see or admit to *any* of the wrongs about him, at least any that threaten to diminish his image of your 'Father in the Word', as tho' that image is necessary to hold on to in order for you to "do the Word".
And if that is the kind of 'Word of God' that you have to offer, to quote directly from the PF of AL class, "No-o-o thanks! I wouldn't want to go to church with you!"
Why? You're too 'beaten down' with your 'less-than-abundant life' resulting from your blind loyalty and obedience to your dead idol, VPW. And the sad thing about all that is, you're at the point where you don't even see it, much less want to see it.
Thanks, but no thanks from me, as I don't need your steenkin' 'class'. Keep your green card.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hi Mike:
Thanks for posting your material. I have never seen such a text book example of preaching one thing, yet actually doing the complete opposite of that which is taught. I never read or heard Victor Wierwille's last teaching until now. However, I am very familiar with some of the scriptures that were quoted. It was pretty obvious even back then that true Christian service was lacking in TWI. You only needed to see the people parading around with their name tags, Way Corps, College Division, Reverend ,etc, at TWI functions to see that the Way Ministry had lost sight of what it is to not be a respector of persons. Instead religious title and prestige was held in high esteem with TWI. What is really amazing about Victor’s last teaching specifically is the scriptures quoted Mark 10:35-45. The companion scriptures are Matthew 20:20-28 and Luke 22:20-30. Certainly these are wonderful scriptures describing and teaching about true service. However, is this what the Way denomination actually applied in their ministry?
Looking at the scriptures beginning in verse 37 we can clearly see the potential for a power struggle between the 12 disciples, specifically from James and John the sons of Zebedee. This clearly angered the other 10 in verse 40 and Jesus put out the flames of this potential for religious in fighting by saying the following in Mark 10:42-45.
42"You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all.
45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
NIV
Jesus clearly says that they were not to have a system of lords over God’s heritage like the Gentiles with one class above another and a hierarchy of religious power. In contrast, they were to serve one another in love. Nice words for Victor to quote, but did he actually do anything to stop the up coming power struggle within his own denomination which clearly was on the horizon? Actually, Victor Wierwille instead clearly faned the flames of this strife. He did this by first and foremost setting up a religious hierarchy of lords over God’s heritage just like Jesus warned against and said not to do. He set up a virtual smorgasborg of minions one over another. He had twig coordinators over leaves. Then he had branch leaders over twig coordinators. In some areas he had area and territory leaders over the branch leaders. Then he had limb leaders over the branch, area and territory leaders. Then he had region leaders over the limb leaders. Finally he had a trunk leader over the region and limb leaders with all the above leaders subordinate to him and his board of trustees. As time passed this religous hierarchy got more controlling with every passing year. Finally, when it was time to pass on the figurative mantle of TWI leadership he passed it on to someone that used his religious authority to persecute God’s people and squelch the spirit of God and the individual ministries of others.
Clearly, Victor Wierwille may have talked a good game, but by his actions he figuratively threw charcoal and poured lighter fluid on the flames of discord, indignation, strife and power hoarding within his own denomination. He more than any man is responsible for the sorry state that his denomination is in now.
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OCD #1
classic!
he chuckles as he says "you can be born again and still live a lousy life ...ya know"
I guess he was a testament to that truth
thanks Sudo, nice choice and good sound editing
Mike, i have the advanced class on micro cassette and "The Book of Life" on film AND a proof set (still in plastic) of the "installment" 10/82 ....you want it all? Drop me a snail mail addy
I taped the advanced class and "borrowed" the "Book of Life" to get all corps names and addresses on film.....i believed i was functional in "saving the ministry" at the time
i have realized since, i can barely save myself
save yourself Mike
if anything is true, it's God's gig, he can figure it out or save it or kill it or whatever ...it's God's gig
Mike, i think you are in love with a period in your life! feeling old? trying to get back? sorry you've spent time and a wife and friends for the cause.....but what about you!!?? God loves YOU!!
Mike, it's time to take care of YOU!
We are o.k. We think .....don't wanna "lump" anybody
[This message was edited by OCD #1 on December 27, 2002 at 19:34.]
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firebee
Here's a little more from Mr. Dicks' thesis:
If he (Wierwille) lied about the snow in Tulsa and the gas pumps, what stopped him from misspeaking anything else?
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OCD #1
VP spoke!!! ....'nuff said!!!
hmmmm....the intro to the last great truth teaching that was missed by all the black hearts ....glad I wasn't "Dot" sitting there
funny thing is, Mike, you are proclaiming to be "thorough" about it and edited this material and can't see his disrespect, categorization/ownership and abuse of women in that very "intro"!!
wtf?
i sure hope you get happy and back to loving God, life and yourself!
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sirguessalot
Mike,
Am I glad you came along. The GSC was getting boring. Yer posts are gonna shake this place up for awhile. Yoo got ballz.
Hey, GSers! This is what you've been waiting for for a long time. Just don't chase the guy off (though I doubt you could. He'll leave when HE wants, I'm sure). It seems as though some of you have been asking for this point of view for a long time. Don't blow it!
I'm going for popcorn. This is better than the discovery channel.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hey Sirguessalot:
You should have heard the out loud laugh you just got out of me. Please pass the popcorn.
Mike:
One request please. If you care to comment further on this subject would you please condense and shorten your posts a bit. I think you can say the same thing with a lot less words. I read your first couple of posts in their entirety, but if you have any more long ones I may not have time to read them all. I am a busy guy. Thanks
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sirguessalot
Ditto on that request. A little shorter posts might help, if you can, Mike.
To clarify, I have a lot of respect for most GSer's, as well as some of what I have read from Mike so far.
I'm just another curious monkey in the tree watching a strange new thing come walking through this part of the jungle.
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WordWolf
I would like to thank certain posters at this
time-not by name, but by category.
I'd like to thank the ladies who were sexually
used by vpw for not jumping all over Mike for
calling into question whether they are telling
the truth or not. I REALLY expected one of you
to get indignant about it. Congratulations on
controlling your responses.
------------
Of course, Mike, you DO realize it's easier to
dismiss charges of sexual molestation, sodomy 3,
rape, etc, if they don't impact directly on your
life, don't you? I might imagine your
perspective on that issue would be somewhat
different if something had happened to your
wife, sister or daughter. (If your perspective
would NOT change with it impacting so close to
you, then 'shame on you'.)
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Mike
I thank the ladies also. Maybe they are onto the fact that I am trying to help. A little women’s intuition?
I DID get negatively impacted myself. It took a lot of Word, love, and time to properly arrange my priorities. Assessing the relative strengths of positive impact and negative impact is not easy. It takes GREAT desire to get over it. I know!
Remember what Jesus said to the lame man who was sitting by the pool to get healed? He ASKED if he WANTED to get healed. Here he was lame for years and years, and sitting by a healing pool, YET Jesus felt a need to ask if he WANTED to be healed.
I know Dr had to have sin in his life. I know from God's perspective all sin is sin and the greatest is to love something more than God. We all have committed the greatest sin loads of times. I also know that from OUR perspective some sin hurts others in varying degrees. As we all rise up to get clear on what we want, get healed, and get as good at forgiving as Jesus was to Judas then this will no longer be a problem.
If, for something we can't forgive Dr, who brought us God's Word like no other could have, then who CAN we forgive. I think that we all will sooner or later WANT to get healed of everything that bugs us. However, we get tricked into getting "comfortable" in our pain. Jesus knew this and had to get the man into the desire mode. This is part of what Dr was talking about in the “needs and wants†area.
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WordWolf
I'm still mildly surprised that you honestly think
that God's resources on earth are so meager, and
his plans that poorly-thought-out, that ONLY vpw
could have gotten the job done, that ONLY vpw
could teach the Bible to all those people, that
ONLY vpw could have accomplished anything of
value in his generation.
(Ignoring even Stiles & others, who were already
getting the job done.)
Of course, once you get past the hurdle of
'he was unique & extra-special and absolutely
necessary",
it becomes a short trip to
'we can overlook ANY shortcoming so long as
he's still functioning'.
That's pretty much what I get from your last
post.
I say,
that if God could have a backup plan ready that
scrapped the 12 tribes completely & restarted
with Moses (as He told Moses He was ready to do),
then I find the idea that God can't reach His
people if one person's injured or dead to be a
silly one. God will reach them from another
direction, with another person. Simply put, in
the eternal plans of God, we are all precious &
loved, but we are also expendable-none of us is
the be-all and end-all, summing up the wisdom.
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Goey
Mike,
One constant theme here is "obedience" - not to God - not to the scriptures - but instead to Dr Weirwille. Specifically to his last teaching where he says to "take and Master PFAL". You say regarding this statement by VPW:
It was VPW who said this, but you say it was "God's first instruction". What shall we conculde then, that VPW is God ? or that God spoke when VPW spoke?
You also posted:
I take this interventinon to mean the covenant that God supposedly made with VPW that resulted in PFAL.
You also posted in another place:
And also:
Let me sum up what you are saying to us.
1. The scriptures are flawed and Christ cannot be fully known through them
2. To correct this situation God intervened in 1942 and made a covenant with VPW.
3. In 1942 through this covenant God gave PFAL to VPW and made VPW His apostle and prophet.
4. What VPW says in his books and on tape is the Word of God and should be obeyed.
5. PFAL totally corrects the problems with flawed nature of the Bible.
6. As a fresh revelation and for all practical purposes, PFAL supersedes and serves to replace the previous scriptures.
7. PFAL and VPW's other books are the only true and reliable written Word of God
8. It is only through mastery of PFAL and it's collaterals that Christ can be known.
Mike, Can you confirm that my list above is correct? Did I get anything wrong? I want to make sure that I am in no way misrepresenting what you are sharing with us here.
Goey
[This message was edited by Goey on December 28, 2002 at 7:36.]
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excathedra
goey i truly appreciate your condensing this for me. of course i'll let mike speak for himself.
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firebee
VPW says Christ is absent, and now we hear that he is hidden in the collaterals?
What a game of hide and seek..............
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GarthP2000
I think you missed one Sacred Point:
9. That because of all of the previous Eight Sacred Points, The Teacher's sexual daliances (sp?) with all the "women of his kingdom", his copying and claiming undue credit for others works, and his desire for power and influence are not to be criticised nor condemned, and his reputation must be maintained and whitewashed, no matter the cost ...
simply because he "taught us the Word".
And I think that this is The Most Important Point of all ... to Mike anyway.
Spare me.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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OCD #1
We're playing "Hide and Seek" now!!?? ....!
ok, first to find God wins!!
{breath} AHA!! there he is!! I WIN!!
MIKE!!! God is NOT hidden!!! especially NOT in the collaterals, NOT even in Christianity
GOD IS NOT HIDDEN!
{breath} whoa!
in regards to the whole of time, you have narrowed "God" down to a micro organization, within another "organization" (christianity), which is relatively micro, in regards to the whole of time
{breath} i better get a mint
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OCD #1
you have also narrowed your own God's mission for you down to a very small possible percentage of the real impact you could have on this world
list in order of size:
God
World
Religion
Christianity
The Way
Greasespot
The possible converts at Greasespot
you
....ya need to get up there between God and World
i'm gonna sing some songs and hope lots of people hear 'em and feel good....that's my gig
i will certainly be using words that the world at large can understand without a class or research
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Steve!
For the sake of the benefit of the doubt, I will make one last comment directly to revrun Mike.
Mike, you said that docvic brought us God's Word like no other could have. That is the basic assumption behind TWI and its offsh!ts, and that assumption has been repeatedly demonstrated to be flawed. If, for example, you were even to go to the sources that veepee "allegedly" plagiarized from, you would see great portions of what would become PFAL. If you were to review B.G. Leonard's class, again you would see the source for PFAL. And B.G.'s class is still going strong! And keep in mind, it's not the Bible that I am rejecting. I am not rejecting God and His Word - I am rejecting VP's claim to the throne.
Everyone else - obviously we are conversing with someone in the throes of the psychological condition known as "cognitive dissonance", or perhaps some other mental illness. I am not really qualified to diagnose, but I do know enough about mental illness to recognize it when I see it.
Cognitive dissonance is when there are 2 conflicting concepts in a person's mind, and the mind struggles to make sense of them both, until ultimately completely rejecting one and vehemently adhering to the other.
In this case, Mike cannot accept that so many years of his life were wasted, and he cannot accept that the hero he idolizes is not the man he thought him to be. Therefore he is placing him on a pedestal even higher than that of Jesus Christ - docvic is MUCH more important to our day and time than Jesus Christ ever could be, according to everything that Pastor Mike has written.
Carrying on a conversation with a person with a mental illness is usually fruitless. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and it annoys the pig! (credit Mark Twain)
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Grizzy
Being that Mike here is from SD and that being the SD that is reported by many as a some what paradise and not the SD that has ND for a northern border and that a discussion was started some time ago by Geek about a man in Ca that he found some rather troublesome comments concerning the word of Victor is the Word of God which lead to the posting of the sacred lost ultimate last teaching of the unbiblical most important biblical teacher since the apostles walked the face of the earth and should be placed right up there with Paul in revelation importance, I think I have tracked this back to we were warned by geek of the coming of this stuff...............
Now Steve, I see your unqualified comments to be the equal opposite extreme as to Mike’s comments. On the one hand we have the Mike’s of post TWI world, the ones that are willing to over look every possible sin of the man because he taught us some great stuff after all. Then we have the Steve’s, the you have to have a mental impairment; the proverbial you got to be nucking futs to believe what you are saying and then there are so many of the in betweenies we all can find our proper little slot to fit into!
I personally think that the legacy of VP will eventually go the way that he did, it will die out despite desperate efforts of some transmission components to commit their very breath to keeping the great one’s teachings alive. VP is dead and will give an account for the things he has done, as with all of us when the fire tries our works we will then be rewarded for what is left, now I am not saying that the huge piles of ashes around some’s lives won’t go unnoticed; but we will all have ashes around us.
Any way, talk about a scary look into the mind of what we were to some degree or another while we were *in* and the equally scary glimpse into what we all have become to some degree or another.
VP is not the message of the ages and doesn’t have to be the focus of the times! He is dead and let those that want to worship the spittle that came from his lips do so, let those that want to have the ever present battle of evil focused upon the sins of the man do so also; how ever no claims or statements to relieving one’s self upon the graves at the fountain should be public posted.............. please resort to private e-mails...........
Life is way to big and to important to be spent on the constant debates over VP saint or sinner, IMHO............ but the reality of the actually reaching out and helping some confused innie see the decay and depravation of what was once a great place filled with great followers of the Lord Jesus; despite the evils of the man that started it and regardless of his motives; that to me is present and exciting..........
Mike, I think that you and the people that agree with you are a very scary extreme.........some place in the middle sounds good to me.............thankful for the good that came my way and ....ed about the evil that came and hurt so many.........................
Grizzy COLOR>SIZE>
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Mike
WordWolf wrote:
"I'm still mildly surprised that you honestly think that God's resources on earth are so meager, and his plans that poorly-thought-out, that ONLY vpw could have gotten the job done, that ONLY vpw could teach the Bible to all those people"
Yes, I honestly think that. God's resources are sufficient, but they don't look that way to us from the 5-senses. Remember who governs the 5-senses realm, not God.
Remember that God had to wait some 4000 years for one person to believe the promise of Genesis 3:16 and God tried and tried to get the mystery throuugh to Peter but Peter wasn't big enough yet. God had to work with a man that most Christians of the time didn't like, Saul. Probably many said the same kinds of things about Paul that we hear on GS about Dr about Paul.
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