Dot that was gentle and gracious...so very well said..... Ditto what Cat and watered garden said. Thank you dot and excathedra.
It is meaningfull to read of your continued relationship ... that the darkness of twi could not eliminate the light of God`s love in spite of what you have endured.
Dooj, a very apropriate annalogy. That poor wife, I feel so sorry for her being trapped with that man...you know that there must have been an enormous amount of pressure....if she wanted to leave....the ministry would have sided with her ordained husband of course.......she would have been evil and posessed.
I feel like Exie said earlier, embare-assed. Embarassed to have had anything to do with an outfit that would do this stuff to some I know. [snip] Un-effing believable. Girls, thanks for sharing. I am sure there are more guys reading this that would like to help you "pay back" our wonderful ex-leaders than there are that would wish for the same MOG-dom treatment. None of you have anything to be embarassed about. Ph uck the ph uckin ph uckers. They will hang by their hyperactive scrotums (spiritually and metaphysically).
I am sooo sorry for what y'all had to go through. Thank you for sharing it here with us. I know there are lurkers here and many people are helped by these posts but never get the chance to say "thank you".
Dooj, a very apropriate annalogy. That poor wife, I feel so sorry for her being trapped with that man...you know that there must have been an enormous amount of pressure....if she wanted to leave....the ministry would have sided with her ordained husband of course.......she would have been evil and posessed.
Rascal - the funny thing is that she never did leave him. He says that he changed - but I still wonder....Others' says that he's healed - he never asked me or my hubby (who he REALLY slammed) for forgiveness - just a halfhearted, "If i've ever done anything to hurt you or your family I'm sorry..." :unsure: WTF???
I finally decided that I didn't have to forget to forgive. Now I haven't called him and told him this - and I won't. He even tried to look me up at work years later - I gave him a real cold shoulder. (And Ex I believe you know this person.) I don't want to open up that subject again - just that it took me along time to "let him off the hook" by doing the right thing - AGAIN!!! I figure - he's got his reward (aand some STD's to show for it.)
OCM, Don't think I welcomed you to the GSpot yet....WELCOME!!!
Lurkers is a term that we use because it's universally known to mean those who read but don't post and oftentimes you don't really know they're there. It's not mean to be derogatory - in fact - most of us who found WayDale or GSpot before leaving TWI were at one time lurkers ourselves. ;) I lurked for a very long time and am usually communicating with a "lurker" via PM's.
*edited to add* The WAYGB is the term we use in reference to those who are in TWI who are reading GSpot in order to "spy out the liberty" we have in Christ. They try to identify who is posting - especially those still "in" TWI. Then they M&A that person because they are not allowed on the internet and because they teach that you will get possessed if you post on sites like GSpot. The term WAYGB is[/b] a derogatory term. We know that Mr. Linder and probably my ex-husband are regular lurkers. Hey Mr. Linder! :D Hey Meister!
I doubt you'll get many people to change their use of the term, but offer some suggestions for alternatives and if they're good enough, maybe we can pick one and start a grassroots campaign to change the term.
Would you care for some fresh baked cookies? Paw just took these out of the oven.....
Come on......it wasn`t like anybody could be on equal footing with lcm....
It wasn`t like LCM really loved her either....
True, but, she still could have simply walked away, honoring her husbands wishes, and asking his forgiveness for her sluttress-ism.
I'll say it before and I'll say it again: My wife, when she was single, was molested by LCM in a hotel room. He groped her, and she squared off with him, reminded him that he was married, and reminded him that "thou shalt not commit adultery" was part of "It Is Written" the Way Corps motto, and that of all people as the Corps Director, It Is Written should be very very important to him. And, it stopped him cold. He apologized, and never blackballed her either.
So, I don't buy it that people were under a mysterious and unresistable power that was inescapable. I do believe that, according to this account, all three share in the responsibility for this guy's death. LCM, Ramona, and Brother Mitchell. Sadly, Tom Mitchell got the worst of it. Shoot, Ramona could have walked away back when I and so many others did. But, she liked being there. I remember her well, and she was always one to suck up to leadership. Power was intoxicating to her. She hit on me a time or two, but, she just seemed too power hungry for me. I saw it. And it's just too damned bad Tom didn't see through it. She was a sexy woman though, and very seductive. Sad as it is, we all have to pay (as Tom did), or will pay for our mistakes. LCM and Ms. Hannig Mitchell included. So sad that Tom didn't get out of there sooner, leaving Ramona behind for Craig. But, he loved her. A cruel tragedy to be sure...
Don't read me wrong though. I do believe that Craig shares the biggest responsibility here though, for as a "minister", he totally abused his position. And to me, to take nother man's wife is close to the lowest of the low. I mean, it's lower than whale ..... It's down there with rape, murder, and child molesting, in my book...
Ya know, I have read about how the porno filmers get those dogs to perform with those gals like that (yeah I saw the vid in rez also), they put bacon grease on the women to lure the hungry dog into action. "Bacon! I want bacon!!!" But VP told us that a dog would only do that if it or the human performers were posessed. But really, he just wanted "BACON!!! I WANT BACON!!!"
And I can just imagine one of you 7th Corps singing "Puppy Love" during the middle of that with a sweet pre-pubescent Donnie Osmond voice. And so, who was it? Joe Guarini? Jeff Pittinger? Man, that just cracks me up just thinking of it. It must have been some very welcomed "comic relief!"
It is surprising we didn't have more suicides in TWI than we did. And equally surprising is how quiet all the extra-cirricular activity of these "leaders" was kept. How in hades did they find time to read or teach what was, in many areas, questionably the bible?? Why not just "chuck the whole thing" (reading/teaching bible) and FOCUS on seduction, adultry, rape, sodomy, etc. ?? Maybe they DID. I know on more that one occassion I had to come up with a teaching in 10 minutes.
Someone posted about good ole uncle howard slappin' a french on her and saying, "You've been asking for that all day!!""... What an absolute idiot. Never was too impressed with howie's IQ and sexuality. I'd venture to say he had less sex appeal than a fire hydrant. How gross, what a filthy, presumptuous and egotistical old fart. Not even teek (Tic) would lap at him, even with an after-service burger in his hand. And I would venture a guess that had some "regular" believers known about this stuff, these "leaders" would be in jeopardy of their lives (gee, why did VP have CG, HA and other drivers carry handguns???) ...
Sigh....We were all so intense...took our lifetime commitment and personal integrety all so seriously....We were so proud of our spirituality, our integrety as christian doulos` so anxious to present God tp folks....I wonder if these guys laughed at us for our gullibility :(
They certainly didn`t care who was destroyed....just shrugged their shoulders and moved on....
I wonder....Do you guys think that folks were predisposed to be this way before becoming involved and that twi/ vpw simply fascilitated their sickness....or do you think that long time association with twi/vpw developed this in people?
I don`t know it seems like many folks were able to stay wonderfull and caring through out their twi involvement.
Further...do you think it was mental illness/defect involved or evil such as the bible speaks of ....or a combination of both?
Just trying to put all of the pieces together here.
I wonder....Do you guys think that folks were predisposed to be this way before becoming involved and that twi/ vpw simply fascilitated their sickness....or do you think that long time association with twi/vpw developed this in people?
Some one, some the other, and some, a little bit of both.
I don`t know it seems like many folks were able to stay wonderfull and caring through out their twi involvement.
Further...do you think it was mental illness/defect involved or evil such as the bible speaks of ....or a combination of both?
Different people were exposed to different things before, during, and after TWI involvement. All those variables may have determined to what degree we were influenced by TWI. A little bit nature and a little bit nurture.
What you believe it was all due to I suppose believes on your point of view. Some of what has been alleged to have occurred in TWI can be interpreted as criminal. Criminal acts can be interpreted as evil, depending on how the law applied is viewed. Some people attribute evil to the devil. Some, to the very worst of human nature. The DSM identifies some of what has reportedly been seen in TWI as in the category of mental illness. And, some define mental illness as spirit possession.
And all that, is probably a whole 'nother thread...
"I'll say it before and I'll say it again: My wife, when she was single, was molested by LCM in a hotel room. He groped her, and she squared off with him, reminded him that he was married, and reminded him that "thou shalt not commit adultery" was part of "It Is Written" the Way Corps motto, and that of all people as the Corps Director, It Is Written should be very very important to him. And, it stopped him cold. He apologized, and never blackballed her either.
So, I don't buy it that people were under a mysterious and unresistable power that was inescapable. I do believe that, according to this account, all three share in the responsibility for this guy's death. LCM, Ramona, and Brother Mitchell. Sadly, Tom Mitchell got the worst of it. Shoot, Ramona could have walked away back when I and so many others did. But, she liked being there. I remember her well, and she was always one to suck up to leadership. Power was intoxicating to her. She hit on me a time or two, but, she just seemed too power hungry for me. I saw it. And it's just too damned bad Tom didn't see through it. She was a sexy woman though, and very seductive. Sad as it is, we all have to pay (as Tom did), or will pay for our mistakes. LCM and Ms. Hannig Mitchell included. So sad that Tom didn't get out of there sooner, leaving Ramona behind for Craig. But, he loved her. A cruel tragedy to be sure..."
Jonny, I am sure your wife is a confident woman. I am sure she woke up LCM at that time. However, you have to realize that not all women are confident. Put that to gether with a fear of men or fear of authority, and it is a dangerous combination. I had that fear of authority. I don't know what I would have done had I been in their shoes. It appears that the only ones who were blackballed were the ones who broke down mentally. They were a risk.
I believe several of these women were confused and scared to buck authority. Mix that up with being given "special" drinks, and you have even a worse scenario.
Yes, I belive there were some like R*amona who probably lived to be around authority and were just as guilty as the perpetrators. But there are few who are like her IMHO. Sex is an extremely sensitive and emotional thing for a lot of women. Abuse in that category can shatter them for a long, long time.
I know you are not insensitive to these things. I just felt this needed to be brought up.
quote: I wonder....Do you guys think that folks were predisposed to be this way before becoming involved and that twi/ vpw simply fascilitated their sickness....or do you think that long time association with twi/vpw developed this in people?
I don`t know it seems like many folks were able to stay wonderfull and caring through out their twi involvement.
Further...do you think it was mental illness/defect involved or evil such as the bible speaks of ....or a combination of both?
Just trying to put all of the pieces together here.
All of the things you wondered are possible, but to me, there was a point in time when each individual succumbed to temptation or didn't.
I was raised by my mom and she was frequently telling me that sex outside of marriage was nothing but trouble, and she wasn't even religious. So in HS I never had sex and never even put forth much effort to do so, although I had to say whatever I had to say to convince my peers I wasn't gay. But I saw many guys in my HS class get to the point where they were willing to routinely use girls for sex like it was a sport.
So it was easy for me, after getting into the word, to classify the previously stated preoccupation with sex as being conformed to this world. Pretty much everybody that I knew about in TWI who took sexual liberties got in trouble for it. My first twig was all married couples except for me and one other single guy. One of our non twig activities was to take care of a garden. One time one of the married women in the twig was driving just me and her to the garden and she said to me, "We could do something 'terrible' and nobody would ever know." She was good looking. To be honest, she was WAY out of my league; I think the only reason she did this is because we were both stoned on pot at the time.
But it really shook me up. Here I thought I was in a Christian fellowship with Christian people (SAFE from the world) and she had to go and say that. I blew her off and then later that day I called the guy who got me into the word. He said the devil got her and not to sweat it. The next time I saw her she looked really guilty and uncomfortable. If I had any inkling that this was done routinely by the BOT as depicted by this thread, I would have stopped going to twig right then.
Fast forward 5 yrs. I'm at the Living Victoriously Class. This same woman is in the family corps. She was at the class staying in the single women's corps tent, while her husband was at Rome City with the kids. During one of our conversations she said to me, "I'm glad I'm married. My husband's a good husband; he does the word. Plus those single women are sooooo giddy!" Nothing more. They left TWI in the 80s and are still married.
Everybody gets tempted with stuff. That woman could have ended up like Ramona B is being described here, but she didn't. And I could've kept on smoking pot, but I didn't.
I just cannot picture VPW in 1942 sitting at his desk and thinking to himself, "Yeah, I'll tell everybody I saw snow on the gas pumps and then 25 yrs from now I'll go to Haight Asbury and get hippies to join my cult and in a few years I'll be swimming in poontang!!!!Yeah, baby!" [snip] Maybe his conscience got seared with a hot iron at some point, but even if all this is true, he wasn't born that way.
I just cannot picture VPW in 1942 sitting at his desk and thinking to himself, "Yeah, I'll tell everybody I saw snow on the gas pumps and then 25 yrs from now I'll go to Haight Asbury and get hippies to join my cult and in a few years I'll be swimming in poontang!!!!Yeah, baby!" And now you want me to believe he had sex with his own KIDS? Maybe his conscience got seared with a hot iron at some point, but even if all this is true, he wasn't born that way.
Good morning, strawman!
See,
having studied and analyzed what vpw HIMSELF said about his personal history,
and then using a few outside references as addendum, it never seemed to me
what you're suggesting here. I imagine that SOMEONE might hold that position,
but I imagine ALL positions are held by SOMEONE. The vast majority HERE,
however, holds a more "reasonable", logical view.
See, history doesn't happen all at once. People can plan ahead, but they
make their plans, and execute their plans, and they must face reality
interfering with those plans all the time. Sometimes it moves things
along, sometimes it hinders them, sometimes it stops them dead in their
tracks. (Do you think lcm would have continued his mad steering if he'd known
the internet was going to come along any make him unable to make information-
and PEOPLE-vanish?)
In the earliest of years, vpw slacked out on all attempts to work (ditched on chores
and so on.) His only connection to holiness was-supposedly-one time he told an
out-of-town visiting minister (who got treated well and respected) that vpw wanted
to be a man of God like him. (He NEVER followed up in the church in ANY capacity.)
As a teenager, he showed off for attention, and lacked integrity. He earned a
reputation as a bully and a showoff. When it came to college, he'd
considered business, and entertainment, and the seminary,(etc.) and selected
the seminary out of the possible "professions"-hardly a "calling of God".
When he went to the seminary, he chose the SOFTEST option-"Homiletics" rather
than "Bible Languages" or another subject requiring dedicated study.
When he entered into his first pastorate, he established himself as a bully and a
control freak. Was that "his plan" all along- be a control freak?
No, but we must struggle against our "natures" if we are to overcome them-
and he did no such struggling. What he wanted, ultimately, was:
A) I want attention. I want respect. I want lots of both.
B) I want an "easy" job where I can bs.
C) I want a job where I am in CHARGE and not accountable.
D) I want money and things.
Supposedly, he kept getting ready to quit a lot in the first few years.
(No commitment.) Other than being entertaining, and keeping the teenagers
involved, he was unremarkable as a minister.
He did a radio show from 1942 thru sometime past 1947, while "earning" his
"Doctorate" from Pike's Peak Seminary, by mail correspondence.
In 1951, he meets Stiles, who ministers to him, and walks him thru speaking in
tongues for the first time (which takes a few hours.) This marks the first time
his conduct improves at all. However, by 1953, he's able to completely
rip off Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class and call its entire contents "his own".
In 1953, he also completely rips off the contents of Stiles'
"Gifts of the Spirit" book and call its entire contents "his own".
(He later added to both, but NEVER claimed they weren't "his own".)
5 years later, vpw leaves the denomination that had supported him up
until this time, forms a church corporation (tax-exempt), and put the family
farm in its name (exempting it from taxes.) In 1962, he has Lamsa teaching
at his farm. (Lamsa claims special knowledge of the Bible, and special status
as a man of God.) In 1963, he films "the Teacher."
In 1967 or 1968 (twi's own sources conflict on this), vpw visits the Christians
in Haight-Ashbury.
What does he tell them?
Well, from Lamsa, he learned to claim he has special knowledge of the Bible,
and special status as a man of God. From Kenyon, Bullinger, Stiles and
Leonard, he got knowledge the average Christian didn't have. He claimed this
wasn't due to authors or other Christians-but from his own special connection
to God, which he NOW attributed to an incident in 1942-over 20 year ago,
which now involves the voice of God and a miraculous snowstorm.
(Later, he also added a miraculous snowstorm to the 1953 account of
the Stiles incident.)
He convinces them he knows special things (which he does to a degree-
but he lied about the reason.) He's an interesting teacher with a unique
doctrine. He takes the class he got from Leonard and charges them for
it. He takes the holy spirit experience and training from Stiles, and adds
it to the class, thus using it as a method of social control and making a
normative experience of it, also taking credit for THAT.
So,
when did the "snowstorm" come in?
Sometime between 1951 (Tulsa and Stiles)
and 1967/1968 (meeting the hippies in Haight-Ashbury at the
House of Acts). He used that story with them.
Most likely, it was invented at least a few years after
1953 (steals Leonard's class), since the story supposedly
explains-and is supported by-the special knowledge he used in
"the class". By 1967, he's released "Are the Dead Alive Now?"
(a rewrite of a few of Bullinger's books), so I'd say the LATEST
he began to claim this was 1967, after the release of ADAN and
before the Haight-Ashbury trip.
WHY did he go?
Well,
he'd always been good with youngsters, and taught interestingly.
He now had special doctrines, and claim to a title of specialness
(a class and books). What he lacked was NUMBERS-numbers of
easy-to-convince zealots. That means they had to lack experience,
and lack the coolness acquired by age. Both of those mean he
needed YOUNG people. If I were to connect the dots, I'd say that
he was looking for these young people from the time he left
his denomination in 1957, if not earlier. As soon as he hears about
large numbers of young, zealous Christians, he heads right over
there.
BEFORE this, there's some matter of his involvement with his
secretaries in a FEW places, and other infidelities.
When he was there, he noted how free they were with affection.
He also asked someone for the DETAILS of what an orgy was
like-pressing the questions.
Did he hijack the hippies with the specific intention of getting
the horizontal mambo on with some of them?
I don't think that was the MAIN reason-but I could be wrong.
If it was not the #2 reason, though, I'd be shocked.
I think that, having NO opportunity, he would have MADE one
again, and being presented with one, he made the most of it.
After all, he also had no problem showing pornography to
teenagers. (Including stuff I as an ADULT have never actually
seen-and I've seen a few things, especially since I hang out
You ought to look into a lot of the stuff regarding the "Word-Faith" movement in general. Some of the practices, some of the personalities, some of the abuses. It wasn't just VPW. The similarities are bizarre. Haven't seen another one that went as far or as strange as VPW, but the characteristics of the abuses are spookily similar.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Orbot...Welcome, you're among friends.
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rascal
Dot that was gentle and gracious...so very well said..... Ditto what Cat and watered garden said. Thank you dot and excathedra.
It is meaningfull to read of your continued relationship ... that the darkness of twi could not eliminate the light of God`s love in spite of what you have endured.
Dooj, a very apropriate annalogy. That poor wife, I feel so sorry for her being trapped with that man...you know that there must have been an enormous amount of pressure....if she wanted to leave....the ministry would have sided with her ordained husband of course.......she would have been evil and posessed.
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tomtuttle1
I feel like Exie said earlier, embare-assed. Embarassed to have had anything to do with an outfit that would do this stuff to some I know. [snip] Un-effing believable. Girls, thanks for sharing. I am sure there are more guys reading this that would like to help you "pay back" our wonderful ex-leaders than there are that would wish for the same MOG-dom treatment. None of you have anything to be embarassed about. Ph uck the ph uckin ph uckers. They will hang by their hyperactive scrotums (spiritually and metaphysically).
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Belle
Oh my! I'm speechless. :(
I am sooo sorry for what y'all had to go through. Thank you for sharing it here with us. I know there are lurkers here and many people are helped by these posts but never get the chance to say "thank you".
Dot, that was beautiful!
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doojable
Rascal - the funny thing is that she never did leave him. He says that he changed - but I still wonder....Others' says that he's healed - he never asked me or my hubby (who he REALLY slammed) for forgiveness - just a halfhearted, "If i've ever done anything to hurt you or your family I'm sorry..." :unsure: WTF???
I finally decided that I didn't have to forget to forgive. Now I haven't called him and told him this - and I won't. He even tried to look me up at work years later - I gave him a real cold shoulder. (And Ex I believe you know this person.) I don't want to open up that subject again - just that it took me along time to "let him off the hook" by doing the right thing - AGAIN!!! I figure - he's got his reward (aand some STD's to show for it.)
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Orbot Commander Mighty
why do they use the word (Lurkers)
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Belle
OCM, Don't think I welcomed you to the GSpot yet....WELCOME!!!
Lurkers is a term that we use because it's universally known to mean those who read but don't post and oftentimes you don't really know they're there. It's not mean to be derogatory - in fact - most of us who found WayDale or GSpot before leaving TWI were at one time lurkers ourselves. ;) I lurked for a very long time and am usually communicating with a "lurker" via PM's.
*edited to add* The WAYGB is the term we use in reference to those who are in TWI who are reading GSpot in order to "spy out the liberty" we have in Christ. They try to identify who is posting - especially those still "in" TWI. Then they M&A that person because they are not allowed on the internet and because they teach that you will get possessed if you post on sites like GSpot. The term WAYGB is[/b] a derogatory term. We know that Mr. Linder and probably my ex-husband are regular lurkers.
Hey Mr. Linder! :D Hey Meister!
I doubt you'll get many people to change their use of the term, but offer some suggestions for alternatives and if they're good enough, maybe we can pick one and start a grassroots campaign to change the term.
Would you care for some fresh baked cookies? Paw just took these out of the oven.....
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J0nny Ling0
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justloafing
and I wonder how many said 'NO" and were raped.
Thousands?
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excathedra
i said no for 5 or 6 years i think, trying to remember
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justloafing
Point made Exie
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J0nny Ling0
Ya know, I have read about how the porno filmers get those dogs to perform with those gals like that (yeah I saw the vid in rez also), they put bacon grease on the women to lure the hungry dog into action. "Bacon! I want bacon!!!" But VP told us that a dog would only do that if it or the human performers were posessed. But really, he just wanted "BACON!!! I WANT BACON!!!"
And I can just imagine one of you 7th Corps singing "Puppy Love" during the middle of that with a sweet pre-pubescent Donnie Osmond voice. And so, who was it? Joe Guarini? Jeff Pittinger? Man, that just cracks me up just thinking of it. It must have been some very welcomed "comic relief!"
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excathedra
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J0nny Ling0
And umm, pardon me for that mis-placed post. I had thought that I was posting at the end of the discussion about the lesbian/dog porno video. Sorry...
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excathedra
not to worry, we were (well, i was) talking about a dog anyway
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tomtuttle1
It is surprising we didn't have more suicides in TWI than we did. And equally surprising is how quiet all the extra-cirricular activity of these "leaders" was kept. How in hades did they find time to read or teach what was, in many areas, questionably the bible?? Why not just "chuck the whole thing" (reading/teaching bible) and FOCUS on seduction, adultry, rape, sodomy, etc. ?? Maybe they DID. I know on more that one occassion I had to come up with a teaching in 10 minutes.
Someone posted about good ole uncle howard slappin' a french on her and saying, "You've been asking for that all day!!""... What an absolute idiot. Never was too impressed with howie's IQ and sexuality. I'd venture to say he had less sex appeal than a fire hydrant. How gross, what a filthy, presumptuous and egotistical old fart. Not even teek (Tic) would lap at him, even with an after-service burger in his hand. And I would venture a guess that had some "regular" believers known about this stuff, these "leaders" would be in jeopardy of their lives (gee, why did VP have CG, HA and other drivers carry handguns???) ...
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rascal
Sigh....We were all so intense...took our lifetime commitment and personal integrety all so seriously....We were so proud of our spirituality, our integrety as christian doulos` so anxious to present God tp folks....I wonder if these guys laughed at us for our gullibility :(
They certainly didn`t care who was destroyed....just shrugged their shoulders and moved on....
I wonder....Do you guys think that folks were predisposed to be this way before becoming involved and that twi/ vpw simply fascilitated their sickness....or do you think that long time association with twi/vpw developed this in people?
I don`t know it seems like many folks were able to stay wonderfull and caring through out their twi involvement.
Further...do you think it was mental illness/defect involved or evil such as the bible speaks of ....or a combination of both?
Just trying to put all of the pieces together here.
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Catcup
Some one, some the other, and some, a little bit of both.
Different people were exposed to different things before, during, and after TWI involvement. All those variables may have determined to what degree we were influenced by TWI. A little bit nature and a little bit nurture.
What you believe it was all due to I suppose believes on your point of view. Some of what has been alleged to have occurred in TWI can be interpreted as criminal. Criminal acts can be interpreted as evil, depending on how the law applied is viewed. Some people attribute evil to the devil. Some, to the very worst of human nature. The DSM identifies some of what has reportedly been seen in TWI as in the category of mental illness. And, some define mental illness as spirit possession.
And all that, is probably a whole 'nother thread...
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Nottawayfer
"I'll say it before and I'll say it again: My wife, when she was single, was molested by LCM in a hotel room. He groped her, and she squared off with him, reminded him that he was married, and reminded him that "thou shalt not commit adultery" was part of "It Is Written" the Way Corps motto, and that of all people as the Corps Director, It Is Written should be very very important to him. And, it stopped him cold. He apologized, and never blackballed her either.
So, I don't buy it that people were under a mysterious and unresistable power that was inescapable. I do believe that, according to this account, all three share in the responsibility for this guy's death. LCM, Ramona, and Brother Mitchell. Sadly, Tom Mitchell got the worst of it. Shoot, Ramona could have walked away back when I and so many others did. But, she liked being there. I remember her well, and she was always one to suck up to leadership. Power was intoxicating to her. She hit on me a time or two, but, she just seemed too power hungry for me. I saw it. And it's just too damned bad Tom didn't see through it. She was a sexy woman though, and very seductive. Sad as it is, we all have to pay (as Tom did), or will pay for our mistakes. LCM and Ms. Hannig Mitchell included. So sad that Tom didn't get out of there sooner, leaving Ramona behind for Craig. But, he loved her. A cruel tragedy to be sure..."
Jonny, I am sure your wife is a confident woman. I am sure she woke up LCM at that time. However, you have to realize that not all women are confident. Put that to gether with a fear of men or fear of authority, and it is a dangerous combination. I had that fear of authority. I don't know what I would have done had I been in their shoes. It appears that the only ones who were blackballed were the ones who broke down mentally. They were a risk.
I believe several of these women were confused and scared to buck authority. Mix that up with being given "special" drinks, and you have even a worse scenario.
Yes, I belive there were some like R*amona who probably lived to be around authority and were just as guilty as the perpetrators. But there are few who are like her IMHO. Sex is an extremely sensitive and emotional thing for a lot of women. Abuse in that category can shatter them for a long, long time.
I know you are not insensitive to these things. I just felt this needed to be brought up.
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johniam
quote: I wonder....Do you guys think that folks were predisposed to be this way before becoming involved and that twi/ vpw simply fascilitated their sickness....or do you think that long time association with twi/vpw developed this in people?
I don`t know it seems like many folks were able to stay wonderfull and caring through out their twi involvement.
Further...do you think it was mental illness/defect involved or evil such as the bible speaks of ....or a combination of both?
Just trying to put all of the pieces together here.
All of the things you wondered are possible, but to me, there was a point in time when each individual succumbed to temptation or didn't.
I was raised by my mom and she was frequently telling me that sex outside of marriage was nothing but trouble, and she wasn't even religious. So in HS I never had sex and never even put forth much effort to do so, although I had to say whatever I had to say to convince my peers I wasn't gay. But I saw many guys in my HS class get to the point where they were willing to routinely use girls for sex like it was a sport.
So it was easy for me, after getting into the word, to classify the previously stated preoccupation with sex as being conformed to this world. Pretty much everybody that I knew about in TWI who took sexual liberties got in trouble for it. My first twig was all married couples except for me and one other single guy. One of our non twig activities was to take care of a garden. One time one of the married women in the twig was driving just me and her to the garden and she said to me, "We could do something 'terrible' and nobody would ever know." She was good looking. To be honest, she was WAY out of my league; I think the only reason she did this is because we were both stoned on pot at the time.
But it really shook me up. Here I thought I was in a Christian fellowship with Christian people (SAFE from the world) and she had to go and say that. I blew her off and then later that day I called the guy who got me into the word. He said the devil got her and not to sweat it. The next time I saw her she looked really guilty and uncomfortable. If I had any inkling that this was done routinely by the BOT as depicted by this thread, I would have stopped going to twig right then.
Fast forward 5 yrs. I'm at the Living Victoriously Class. This same woman is in the family corps. She was at the class staying in the single women's corps tent, while her husband was at Rome City with the kids. During one of our conversations she said to me, "I'm glad I'm married. My husband's a good husband; he does the word. Plus those single women are sooooo giddy!" Nothing more. They left TWI in the 80s and are still married.
Everybody gets tempted with stuff. That woman could have ended up like Ramona B is being described here, but she didn't. And I could've kept on smoking pot, but I didn't.
I just cannot picture VPW in 1942 sitting at his desk and thinking to himself, "Yeah, I'll tell everybody I saw snow on the gas pumps and then 25 yrs from now I'll go to Haight Asbury and get hippies to join my cult and in a few years I'll be swimming in poontang!!!!Yeah, baby!" [snip] Maybe his conscience got seared with a hot iron at some point, but even if all this is true, he wasn't born that way.
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tomtuttle1
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Catcup
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WordWolf
Good morning, strawman!
See,
having studied and analyzed what vpw HIMSELF said about his personal history,
and then using a few outside references as addendum, it never seemed to me
what you're suggesting here. I imagine that SOMEONE might hold that position,
but I imagine ALL positions are held by SOMEONE. The vast majority HERE,
however, holds a more "reasonable", logical view.
See, history doesn't happen all at once. People can plan ahead, but they
make their plans, and execute their plans, and they must face reality
interfering with those plans all the time. Sometimes it moves things
along, sometimes it hinders them, sometimes it stops them dead in their
tracks. (Do you think lcm would have continued his mad steering if he'd known
the internet was going to come along any make him unable to make information-
and PEOPLE-vanish?)
In the earliest of years, vpw slacked out on all attempts to work (ditched on chores
and so on.) His only connection to holiness was-supposedly-one time he told an
out-of-town visiting minister (who got treated well and respected) that vpw wanted
to be a man of God like him. (He NEVER followed up in the church in ANY capacity.)
As a teenager, he showed off for attention, and lacked integrity. He earned a
reputation as a bully and a showoff. When it came to college, he'd
considered business, and entertainment, and the seminary,(etc.) and selected
the seminary out of the possible "professions"-hardly a "calling of God".
When he went to the seminary, he chose the SOFTEST option-"Homiletics" rather
than "Bible Languages" or another subject requiring dedicated study.
When he entered into his first pastorate, he established himself as a bully and a
control freak. Was that "his plan" all along- be a control freak?
No, but we must struggle against our "natures" if we are to overcome them-
and he did no such struggling. What he wanted, ultimately, was:
A) I want attention. I want respect. I want lots of both.
B) I want an "easy" job where I can bs.
C) I want a job where I am in CHARGE and not accountable.
D) I want money and things.
Supposedly, he kept getting ready to quit a lot in the first few years.
(No commitment.) Other than being entertaining, and keeping the teenagers
involved, he was unremarkable as a minister.
He did a radio show from 1942 thru sometime past 1947, while "earning" his
"Doctorate" from Pike's Peak Seminary, by mail correspondence.
In 1951, he meets Stiles, who ministers to him, and walks him thru speaking in
tongues for the first time (which takes a few hours.) This marks the first time
his conduct improves at all. However, by 1953, he's able to completely
rip off Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class and call its entire contents "his own".
In 1953, he also completely rips off the contents of Stiles'
"Gifts of the Spirit" book and call its entire contents "his own".
(He later added to both, but NEVER claimed they weren't "his own".)
5 years later, vpw leaves the denomination that had supported him up
until this time, forms a church corporation (tax-exempt), and put the family
farm in its name (exempting it from taxes.) In 1962, he has Lamsa teaching
at his farm. (Lamsa claims special knowledge of the Bible, and special status
as a man of God.) In 1963, he films "the Teacher."
In 1967 or 1968 (twi's own sources conflict on this), vpw visits the Christians
in Haight-Ashbury.
What does he tell them?
Well, from Lamsa, he learned to claim he has special knowledge of the Bible,
and special status as a man of God. From Kenyon, Bullinger, Stiles and
Leonard, he got knowledge the average Christian didn't have. He claimed this
wasn't due to authors or other Christians-but from his own special connection
to God, which he NOW attributed to an incident in 1942-over 20 year ago,
which now involves the voice of God and a miraculous snowstorm.
(Later, he also added a miraculous snowstorm to the 1953 account of
the Stiles incident.)
He convinces them he knows special things (which he does to a degree-
but he lied about the reason.) He's an interesting teacher with a unique
doctrine. He takes the class he got from Leonard and charges them for
it. He takes the holy spirit experience and training from Stiles, and adds
it to the class, thus using it as a method of social control and making a
normative experience of it, also taking credit for THAT.
So,
when did the "snowstorm" come in?
Sometime between 1951 (Tulsa and Stiles)
and 1967/1968 (meeting the hippies in Haight-Ashbury at the
House of Acts). He used that story with them.
Most likely, it was invented at least a few years after
1953 (steals Leonard's class), since the story supposedly
explains-and is supported by-the special knowledge he used in
"the class". By 1967, he's released "Are the Dead Alive Now?"
(a rewrite of a few of Bullinger's books), so I'd say the LATEST
he began to claim this was 1967, after the release of ADAN and
before the Haight-Ashbury trip.
WHY did he go?
Well,
he'd always been good with youngsters, and taught interestingly.
He now had special doctrines, and claim to a title of specialness
(a class and books). What he lacked was NUMBERS-numbers of
easy-to-convince zealots. That means they had to lack experience,
and lack the coolness acquired by age. Both of those mean he
needed YOUNG people. If I were to connect the dots, I'd say that
he was looking for these young people from the time he left
his denomination in 1957, if not earlier. As soon as he hears about
large numbers of young, zealous Christians, he heads right over
there.
BEFORE this, there's some matter of his involvement with his
secretaries in a FEW places, and other infidelities.
When he was there, he noted how free they were with affection.
He also asked someone for the DETAILS of what an orgy was
like-pressing the questions.
Did he hijack the hippies with the specific intention of getting
the horizontal mambo on with some of them?
I don't think that was the MAIN reason-but I could be wrong.
If it was not the #2 reason, though, I'd be shocked.
I think that, having NO opportunity, he would have MADE one
again, and being presented with one, he made the most of it.
After all, he also had no problem showing pornography to
teenagers. (Including stuff I as an ADULT have never actually
seen-and I've seen a few things, especially since I hang out
in Manhattan.)
========
[snip]
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markomalley
Wordwolf,
You ought to look into a lot of the stuff regarding the "Word-Faith" movement in general. Some of the practices, some of the personalities, some of the abuses. It wasn't just VPW. The similarities are bizarre. Haven't seen another one that went as far or as strange as VPW, but the characteristics of the abuses are spookily similar.
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