"Those with this special ministry were gatekeepers responsible for scoping out the flock for potential servants, instructing them in the sex doctrine of the inner circle, and then filling the 'Man of God's' stables with fresh new fillies to service his needs."
I can attest to this being a true statement as I was targeted by one of the female Rev. pimps. When I was not interested they had an area meeting to announce I was possessed, that way when I told people about the "inner circle" or the practices of these "ordained" chosen, special people -- all would scoff at me. It wounded me GREATLY.
They were b-tches like none other I have met in the secular world. Bunch of easy wh-res with a title and a dangerous secret assignment to ruin the lives of girls who were seeking Jesus. Yeah, meet the leaders of The Way, Linda Lovelace and the rest of the “head” hunters.
Then of course, I was targeted by the fat-old-porn-showing-leader himself.... After telling him "no" I went from working "head table" to sanding furniture in an out-of-the-way area where I could not "hurt" anyone -- ya know by telling them what I knew.
I wish I had the sense I had in high school when I got in the corps because the 17-year-old-me would have told them to kiss my azz and punched their lights out, but by this time, I had been pounded with the whole "listen to your leader" crap. So, sometimes I listened. But I was NOT going to take my pants off like a hooker for Jesus or something. The thought sickened me then as it does now.
I feel badly for all the little girls who were tricked, blinded, convinced against their better judgment or had "something" to drink in the coach -- and then found themselves "no longer in control". That is awful and very different from becoming a recruiter.
The very first suicide I ever heard of that occurred at The Way International shocked me. It happened in the very early 70's, and I couldn't understand how anyone in TWI could ever get so depressed that they would take their own life, especially someone who worked at The Way International headquarters, and someone who was in such close proximity to "the Man of God." The woman had killed herself in the little outbuilding commonly known as VPW's "clubhouse."
What I know now makes the entire situation much more clearer than it was to me then. John Lynn, my limb leader at the time, simply wrote her off as being "possessed," and that "Dr. Wierwille had done everything in his power to help her." Funny how that label of a person being "possessed" had a way of stopping your mental processes in their tracks-- no more questions, that "explained" everything.
It explains everything, alright.
It's The Way's way of destroying the character of those whom they victimize.
Well, I thought of suicide after what they did to me at the area meeting. Later, I heard the Rev. pimp said that if they lost me to suicide it would be for the advancement of "the Word" :o
I could hardly speak for a peroid and just was quiet and shell shocked. It was then that Excathedra called me from the corps and made me talk to her. I was pretty non responsive. Ex kept saying you know Rev. (pimp) is insane don't you? Do not listen to anything she says. She sleeps with anything and is really really awful sacrificing those in her path... etc. Then, I was mad and determined to prove she was a nut. I was going to speak with Saint Vic and tell him his reindeer were running a muck but when I was called to the coach he was naked and asked me to do something to him. And I KNEW then, it all came from jolly ol' St. Vic himself.
Suicide? I think only Ex knows how close I came to it because of fat St.Vic and his perverts, I mean coherts. May they rot in hell. :wub: :blink:
Oh dear (((Dot))) how horrble for you. ((((Excathedra)))) yet another reason to love you....Even though being there in the corpes was terrible for you.....I am so glad that you were there for dot....
Dot what you went through was So horrible.....She probably hoped that she could drive you to suicide ...one more little mess cleaned up :(
I too was savaged by a corpes bi tch to the point where I seriously contemplated suicide.
I was very young.....and declaired posessed by my witch tc`s wife......I numbly packed my car ....left my home and furniture to them...I stopped at the red river bridge and came within an eyelash of driving myself in.
I left in such shame and condemnation...in a matter of an hour ....I somehow I missed my cambridge bible....my most treasured posession....the tc `s wife victoriously declaired that it was PROOF of her evaluation....because we all know that only a posessed person would forget their bible....that was proof of where my heart was.......she immediatly gave it away.
I was so crushed that I could become posessed and not even know it...or how/when it had happened....I had done everything that my leaders had recomended since becoming involved....given my all to serve God in any way I could.......
I was so ashamed that I didn`t know how to rid myself of the devil spirits that had somehow taken up residence in me.........I was mortified that the people who had loved and nurtured me would find out what I had unknowingly allowed to happen.....and worst of all....I didn`t dare have contact with my beloved brothers and sisters in Christ because I risked contaminating them with my evil :(
If I close my eyes...I can remember the cold sickening shame....the utter loathing of myself......the complete worthlesness....the unworthiness to draw breath....because I harbored a secret evil...a disease that would contaminate those that i loved the most.
I went back to my home town to my natural family....an action that I was told would result in my spiritual death..to be soon followed by my physical death.
I couldn`t stand myself...I couldn`t look in the morror because I made MYSELF sick.....I couldn`t tell anybody what was wrong....I couldn`t talk to God I was too depraved.....In spite of his goodness...I was posessed.
Dot I can so identify with being numb...non responsive.
I didn`t have anyone like ex to counter the damage, there was no one to hold me and tell me that the tc`s wife could have been wrong.......
Damned right I almost committed suicide....but it wasn`t because I was posessed, or that I was weak.....it was because one witch on a bad day had vindictively deprived me of everything that was of importance......my self worth, my self respect, fellowship with the rest of the body of Christ....fellowship with God.....
I was still a teenager for God`s sake.....one that would have done anything for God and his ministry.
Sometimes though, as I have said before.....when things are the blackest....God has to preform the greatest miracles to get our attention......
For years...I just thought it was her.....but I see now that the savaging of people`s reputations....the vindictive destruction of their souls was practiced all through the ministry.
It was just an interim corpes woman who inflicted this wound ....it was damned near fatal as it were....how much worse to have been inflicted and supported by state officials...all the way up the way tree latter to vp himself...
Visciously drive someone to the point of feeling that their life is so worthless ...that there is no option.......that the one figures that they are honestly doing God and the body of Christ a favor by ridding the world of your dangerous disgusting presence.......these poor souls who feel there is no other option....is given no other option.......die....and then these leaders ... these guys whom we trusted with our lives.... then turn around......blame the one that they savagely wounded......accuse them...shift the blame entirely away from themselves vile monsters who deprived folks of everything of meaning in life......
Fill them so full of self loathing and shame.....back your actions up with scriptures.....justify your cruelty....utilise your authority as a representative of God almighty...
Remembering my black despair .... I feel such deep compassion for Tom, for Rochelle, for Steve....I feel so bad that they died in the bleakness that twi created.
I was speaking to my husband about our friends death.....and it dawned on me ...even with the BEST of intentions.....just how ill equipped that we were to deal with depression and suicide.
As spiritual leaders....we should have known how to deal with these issues.....we should have been educated if we wre going to take on the roles of spiritual councelors........be able to recognise the signes of impending suicide.
When our friend was in trouble....we simply went over and helped him get his house work caught up...helped him with his boys....helped him in any way we could......
At times he tried to share how weak and worthless he was...we had no idea that he was so tortured by the black darkness ........ .we of course vigorously denied this....thought that we were doing the right thing by jut praying for him....loving him......
After a few weeks.....He one day changed....became peacefull...everyone of course congratulated him on finally bouncing out of his funk.....he asked us to help us get his house in order....that day he kept trying to give his stuff to us.....we declined...not understanding....
As an aside....I was just discussing this post with my spouse.....and he said something pretty waybrained....even after all of these years....*well I believe that God kept those intentions away from us*....
Well geez....maybe not....you see....we couldn`t accept that our tc, mark`s corpes brother was weak or posessed....the ONLY situation in which suicide would have been an issue.......we were woefully ignorant of how depression works.....
I just told him...that throughout that week.....
I felt a panic...an urgency....close to panic......I daily asked my husband to contact our friend....I was so upset...I called my lc even and asked him to contact our friend......but being a woman and meerly corpes spouse....I was of course blown off and dismissed as being overly emotional.....
Our friend after we helped him get his physicals together....delivered his kids to his spouse and then blew his own brains out.
Here is the really sick part.....our friend immediatly went from respected tc...Son of God ...to dishonor....We all faced questions as to why couldn`t we detect the devil spirits? we weren`t supposed to go to the funeral......we were asked to help clean the house out with the wife whom had left.....everyone pretended like our buddy never existed....there was no remorse..........just an unspoken condemnation for our friends weakness.
Nobody....not my corpes husband, not our state coordinator had been equipped to help this man at his darkest hour......suicide was unthinkable because it involved becoming posessed.....we were woefully ignorant....yet we held peoples lives in the palms of our hands.....
The man lost all respect and honor....he was viewed as posessed and weak......
We are the ones who should be ashamed for presuming to be leaders and authorities.....WE let him down when he needed us most....engulfed in that bottomless pit of dispair.....
I named my first born son whom I was carrying at the time after this man because I felt someone somewhere needed to honor this man and his life....somebody needed to remember him as he honestly was.
I had no idea during the 70's and 80's that so many suicides happened. Or even near suicides. Though I have contemplated such myself while in TWI.
There was a girl in my WOW branch (Ft. Worth, TX 1974-75) who went into the 7th corps, went home for "ho ho relo", and while her aprents were out shopping, stuck a gun in her mouth and pulled the trigger. I guess it's best not to mention her name here, but if anyone knows anything about it and can PT me???
G*** Pa****** told me about it and said her parents blamed LCM for her suicide. She said he was very upset about it. But that is all I know.
The only suicide I had heard of before going on staff was mentioned by the Right Rev. M*rk W*ll*ce while he was my BC. He told my ex-husband and I that a guy he knew is the Corps went and killed himself because he thought nobody liked him. He used it as a "tool" to help my then husband because he has low self esteem and teetered in his commitment to the cult. My ex's problem wasn't with suicide. He had a drug problem, but the Right Reverend was too dumb to see it. My ex just didn't want to be in twi because he was targeted because of his lack of commitment. The Right Reverend said that had the guy who had commited suicide told someone how he felt, the could have helped him. I think the guy had to have given them some signs before he did it. They were just too stupid to see it. They were too busy being spiritual.
You know, we were supposedly taught to discern spirits, why the H didn't anyone discern them to save these people? I don't think people get possessed when they commit suicide. I think they are just sooooooooo down and hopeless that their logic goes away and they just think that ending it all is the easiest way to get away from the pain. It's a damn shame. The Corps program didn't teach people to reach out to others and help them get up, it taught them to condemn.
dottie, you've remembered more about my life than i'll ever know :wub:
(bad thing about mastering the art of denial, you block both the bad and the good ;))
I was going to speak with Saint Vic and tell him his reindeer were running a muck but when I was called to the coach he was naked and asked me to do something to him. And I KNEW then, it all came from jolly ol' St. Vic himself.
how dare he ask you for a massage !!!!! ha
hey johniam and allan, did you read what dot's post ? can you slither around this one "biblically" ?
recently johniam referred to me (in reference to sexual assault by veepee) as something like the greasespot hospice patient who never actually dies. and allan said that if you mention veepee and sex, that rascal's head and my head start spinning
**
rascal, i really do understand a lot about shame and guilt. i'm so thankful you didn't drive off that bridge. and dottie, you know how precious i think your life is, as well. this is a difficult thread, isn't it ?
i think of my corps friend who wrote in his note about wishing he were the man he knew to be. just tears me up.
it's weird, i took pfal and went in corps etc. etc. trying to get over a lot of that worthlessness. i don't know if that is a good reason to commit to god. and i'm not sure i thought about it then. i'm just saying i was teenager who really needed some help with self image.
watered garden, i'm so very sorry you contemplated suicide in the way
many hugs to you too
The Corps program didn't teach people to reach out to others and help them get up, it taught them to condemn.
to condemn themselves in many cases.....
i don't think you can help people if you don't really care about them
of course not to mention when you don't know what the hell you're doing (except being thrown a book called "competent to counsel" or something)
Yes, Ex. This has been a very difficult thread to read as the longer we stayed in, the more depression, abuse, etc. we witnessed. I think Rascal expresses some sentiments that many of us who really did idealistically stay in twi because we thought we were "helping people" felt in our own inadequacy to really help or receive revelation or understand the supposed spiritual significance of nearly anything that was really going on. Why was it our God who was so loving didn't show us in multi-media full-color revelation what was going on. It is heartbreaking. Not only did we need help, but we inadvertently probably contributed to people's pain by our well-meant bible magic -- just renew your mind and it'll all be better in the morning. Sigh.
Anyway, Ex said:
(bad thing about mastering the art of denial, you block both the bad and the good
The reason that statement stood out was because of the family time I just spent in Calif. over the holidays. I've shared briefly on previous posts about my childhood with a physically violent father who eventually nearly killed me as a teenager and my purpose for my comment wasn't to bring that up, but because I spent some time talking with a cousin of mine discussing our childhood.
My cousin is a psychologist (mid-40s) who was also raised in a violent household, was also estranged from her family (by choice) for some years, and now is doing geneological research on our family. She met with me because our family was broken apart by divorce, alcohol and the effects of the violence where we went our own ways and have only recently gotten back together. She's trying to piece together our stories and what we remember about our family's history, etc.
But back to Ex's statement about denial. When I was unable to remember entire periods of time while she and I were talking, we got into a whole discussion of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I know, Ex, that there are some who still view twi thru their rose-colored glasses and are in total denial that anything other than utopia happened in twi. I do think though that many of us, as we are healing (from many things), are closer to manifesting symptoms of PTSD. My cousin was quick to note the detachment both she and I describe experiences with. It's hard to feel those feelings of trauma, anguish, confusion - - and so we relate some of our stories almost as a third party observer...
Anyway, not sure what my point was except that denial word jumped out to me and I think it's more the brain's way of burying stuff that was traumatic until such time as we can (or maybe never can) receive healing in that area - - and not so much a deliberate decision to deny the reality of what we lived.
Thank you ladies for sharing here. My cousin and I wept together as we shared some of our stories and I recognize how difficult it must be to discuss some of this here.
John Lynn, my limb leader at the time, simply wrote her off as being "possessed," and that "Dr. Wierwille had done everything in his power to help her."
Nobody detected a pattern here, even ten years or more later? What a wonderful "man of God." A man of conscience. A man who stood up against the ministry when it got off the Word. And wasn't he funny?
Bullcrap. A self-serving prick, riding high in the center ring of Wierwille's circus, sotted with self-importance, just like many or most of his wretchedly self-promoting, self-serving colleagues "of the cloth" in Way World. (Yes, yes, there were exceptions. We all know one or two.) Of course, his defenders can always point to Martindale, who was worse. Small consolation though.
How many people did the Way International leadership get to "write off." Hundreds, collectively, if not individually? Thousands, more likely. Invariably, the written-off were "possessed," which is to say, fatally low on requisite "meekness to leadership."
"Write off" is the perfect phrase. Marked and avoided - or just written off. Not even a casualty. Not even collateral damage. Just a write-off.
Every person The Way International or it's designated ministers could drive to suicide was one less person who could expose their dirty truth.
It is my own personal opinion, that in that respect, some of the so called "suicides" may have actually been murders.
The person is grief-stricken, confused, and depressed. They are intentionally isolated from their only support network, and intentionally taught that:
"Your life no longer matters to God," and that "...the household would be better off if you didn't take up space on the earth!" and "...You are no longer fit to breathe the same air as the faithful believers!" And the clincher: "...You would be better off if you would drop dead, in order to save your rewards!"
Those specific directives were quoted many, many times by Craig Martindale in Corps nights AND Advanced Class Specials that I attended. I witnessed every word, every viscious, calculated word spit forth from his perverted mouth. I took notes, and have handed them over to the legal team.
I personally believe certain of those suicides may have been murder by design.
This is MY OWN personal opinion, which I have a perfect and legal right to. Yours may vary.
But think about it. It really is the perfect crime. If you have approached a person with sexually servicing you and they deny you, or if they are aware of your secret behaviors, you're in a real fix. You don't want them around because what they may know could be extremely dangerous to your reputation and especially your livelihood. So you use everything and everyone in your power to stop them.
So, there is a self-destruct message included among the indoctrination. Along with completely separating and isolating people from any support network whatsoever other than The Way, you build into the doctrine a person's worthlessness to God if they "cop out." Then at the proper time if need be, the person is mentally, physically, emotionally, financially and or spiritually harassed by whatever means The Way International has at their disposal, to the point of confusion and desperation, and then they are summarily dumped while in a completely vulnerable state.
Whatever is in the power of The Way International, they will and have used, especially at but not limited to HQ: Intimidation techniques (legal and otherwise), the person's so-called Way friends, innie family members, spouse, even goons from the Safety Department to pack your things while you are in the office being confronted, and then they dump you curbside like the ripped bag of maggot-dripping garbage you now believe you are. Then they continue defaming you in every public and private forum available to them, to everyone who ever mattered to you.
In that greatly disturbed and completely vulnerable state, all that person knows and believes and can fall back on is what they have been taught: they are the one who is screwed up, it's their fault, they are a burden to and have brought shame upon themselves, upon the "household," upon the "ministry that taught them the Word," and upon even God Himself. And in order to save what little rewards they may have left, it "would be better for them to die."
So they do it by their own hand. For the good of the "household" and the furtherance of "The Word." They take solace in the fact that their final act in that way is somewhat redeeming, because they are "...removing their sorry carcass from the face of the earth (Craig's words)."
Satari001 is correct about the "write-off's". If you couldn't manifest the right "spirit", you were relegated to the bottom of barrel and then booted when the opportunity appeared.
Rascal & Dot: Your courage in sharing is unbelievable. It takes true strength to be willing to share what you have, and to TRUST that others will respect that as well.
The PDSS is very real. I'm not completely ready yet to share my story, but believe me when I say that it was years before I felt any sense of normalcy. My first ten years out were divided into two parts: daily survival and daily condemation for leaving TWI. For many reasons-some related to TWI and some not-it has been a struggle every day to find a reason to want to wake up the next. Every day I would find a reason, and I have no idea why. The past twenty years have only improved slightly, but I've discovered that every time I begin to get close to someone, I self-destruct so that people won't have to see the "real me"; and I've begun to see that it is in large part a direct result of what happened to me at the end of TWI. The stuff keeps me from people who made actually care, but because they aren't "believer's", I can't trust them. The mental crap is deeply imbedded. Being here is helping: at least I could finally see that mine is not an abnormal story. But I do understand that dark tunnel.
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Watered Garden
I'll never buy a box of Q-Tips again after reading this!
:blink:
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Oakspear
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Dot Matrix
Catcup:
"Those with this special ministry were gatekeepers responsible for scoping out the flock for potential servants, instructing them in the sex doctrine of the inner circle, and then filling the 'Man of God's' stables with fresh new fillies to service his needs."
I can attest to this being a true statement as I was targeted by one of the female Rev. pimps. When I was not interested they had an area meeting to announce I was possessed, that way when I told people about the "inner circle" or the practices of these "ordained" chosen, special people -- all would scoff at me. It wounded me GREATLY.
They were b-tches like none other I have met in the secular world. Bunch of easy wh-res with a title and a dangerous secret assignment to ruin the lives of girls who were seeking Jesus. Yeah, meet the leaders of The Way, Linda Lovelace and the rest of the “head” hunters.
Then of course, I was targeted by the fat-old-porn-showing-leader himself.... After telling him "no" I went from working "head table" to sanding furniture in an out-of-the-way area where I could not "hurt" anyone -- ya know by telling them what I knew.
I wish I had the sense I had in high school when I got in the corps because the 17-year-old-me would have told them to kiss my azz and punched their lights out, but by this time, I had been pounded with the whole "listen to your leader" crap. So, sometimes I listened. But I was NOT going to take my pants off like a hooker for Jesus or something. The thought sickened me then as it does now.
I feel badly for all the little girls who were tricked, blinded, convinced against their better judgment or had "something" to drink in the coach -- and then found themselves "no longer in control". That is awful and very different from becoming a recruiter.
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washingtonweather
yepper, Suicide...these leaders and their "working women" are culpable...Merriam Webster's --
culpable
One entry found for culpable.
Main Entry: cul·pa·ble
Pronunciation: 'k&l-p&-b&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English coupable, from Middle French, from Latin culpabilis, from culpare to blame, from culpa guilt
1 archaic : GUILTY, CRIMINAL
2 : meriting condemnation or blame especially as wrong or harmful <culpable negligence>
synonym see BLAMEWORTHY
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Catcup
The very first suicide I ever heard of that occurred at The Way International shocked me. It happened in the very early 70's, and I couldn't understand how anyone in TWI could ever get so depressed that they would take their own life, especially someone who worked at The Way International headquarters, and someone who was in such close proximity to "the Man of God." The woman had killed herself in the little outbuilding commonly known as VPW's "clubhouse."
What I know now makes the entire situation much more clearer than it was to me then. John Lynn, my limb leader at the time, simply wrote her off as being "possessed," and that "Dr. Wierwille had done everything in his power to help her." Funny how that label of a person being "possessed" had a way of stopping your mental processes in their tracks-- no more questions, that "explained" everything.
It explains everything, alright.
It's The Way's way of destroying the character of those whom they victimize.
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Dot Matrix
:huh:
Well, I thought of suicide after what they did to me at the area meeting. Later, I heard the Rev. pimp said that if they lost me to suicide it would be for the advancement of "the Word" :o
I could hardly speak for a peroid and just was quiet and shell shocked. It was then that Excathedra called me from the corps and made me talk to her. I was pretty non responsive. Ex kept saying you know Rev. (pimp) is insane don't you? Do not listen to anything she says. She sleeps with anything and is really really awful sacrificing those in her path... etc. Then, I was mad and determined to prove she was a nut. I was going to speak with Saint Vic and tell him his reindeer were running a muck but when I was called to the coach he was naked and asked me to do something to him. And I KNEW then, it all came from jolly ol' St. Vic himself.
Suicide? I think only Ex knows how close I came to it because of fat St.Vic and his perverts, I mean coherts. May they rot in hell. :wub: :blink:
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rascal
Oh dear (((Dot))) how horrble for you. ((((Excathedra)))) yet another reason to love you....Even though being there in the corpes was terrible for you.....I am so glad that you were there for dot....
Dot what you went through was So horrible.....She probably hoped that she could drive you to suicide ...one more little mess cleaned up :(
I too was savaged by a corpes bi tch to the point where I seriously contemplated suicide.
I was very young.....and declaired posessed by my witch tc`s wife......I numbly packed my car ....left my home and furniture to them...I stopped at the red river bridge and came within an eyelash of driving myself in.
I left in such shame and condemnation...in a matter of an hour ....I somehow I missed my cambridge bible....my most treasured posession....the tc `s wife victoriously declaired that it was PROOF of her evaluation....because we all know that only a posessed person would forget their bible....that was proof of where my heart was.......she immediatly gave it away.
I was so crushed that I could become posessed and not even know it...or how/when it had happened....I had done everything that my leaders had recomended since becoming involved....given my all to serve God in any way I could.......
I was so ashamed that I didn`t know how to rid myself of the devil spirits that had somehow taken up residence in me.........I was mortified that the people who had loved and nurtured me would find out what I had unknowingly allowed to happen.....and worst of all....I didn`t dare have contact with my beloved brothers and sisters in Christ because I risked contaminating them with my evil :(
If I close my eyes...I can remember the cold sickening shame....the utter loathing of myself......the complete worthlesness....the unworthiness to draw breath....because I harbored a secret evil...a disease that would contaminate those that i loved the most.
I went back to my home town to my natural family....an action that I was told would result in my spiritual death..to be soon followed by my physical death.
I couldn`t stand myself...I couldn`t look in the morror because I made MYSELF sick.....I couldn`t tell anybody what was wrong....I couldn`t talk to God I was too depraved.....In spite of his goodness...I was posessed.
Dot I can so identify with being numb...non responsive.
I didn`t have anyone like ex to counter the damage, there was no one to hold me and tell me that the tc`s wife could have been wrong.......
Damned right I almost committed suicide....but it wasn`t because I was posessed, or that I was weak.....it was because one witch on a bad day had vindictively deprived me of everything that was of importance......my self worth, my self respect, fellowship with the rest of the body of Christ....fellowship with God.....
I was still a teenager for God`s sake.....one that would have done anything for God and his ministry.
Sometimes though, as I have said before.....when things are the blackest....God has to preform the greatest miracles to get our attention......
For years...I just thought it was her.....but I see now that the savaging of people`s reputations....the vindictive destruction of their souls was practiced all through the ministry.
It was just an interim corpes woman who inflicted this wound ....it was damned near fatal as it were....how much worse to have been inflicted and supported by state officials...all the way up the way tree latter to vp himself...
What a vile group of people....
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rascal
Visciously drive someone to the point of feeling that their life is so worthless ...that there is no option.......that the one figures that they are honestly doing God and the body of Christ a favor by ridding the world of your dangerous disgusting presence.......these poor souls who feel there is no other option....is given no other option.......die....and then these leaders ... these guys whom we trusted with our lives.... then turn around......blame the one that they savagely wounded......accuse them...shift the blame entirely away from themselves vile monsters who deprived folks of everything of meaning in life......
Fill them so full of self loathing and shame.....back your actions up with scriptures.....justify your cruelty....utilise your authority as a representative of God almighty...
Remembering my black despair .... I feel such deep compassion for Tom, for Rochelle, for Steve....I feel so bad that they died in the bleakness that twi created.
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rascal
I was speaking to my husband about our friends death.....and it dawned on me ...even with the BEST of intentions.....just how ill equipped that we were to deal with depression and suicide.
As spiritual leaders....we should have known how to deal with these issues.....we should have been educated if we wre going to take on the roles of spiritual councelors........be able to recognise the signes of impending suicide.
When our friend was in trouble....we simply went over and helped him get his house work caught up...helped him with his boys....helped him in any way we could......
At times he tried to share how weak and worthless he was...we had no idea that he was so tortured by the black darkness ........ .we of course vigorously denied this....thought that we were doing the right thing by jut praying for him....loving him......
After a few weeks.....He one day changed....became peacefull...everyone of course congratulated him on finally bouncing out of his funk.....he asked us to help us get his house in order....that day he kept trying to give his stuff to us.....we declined...not understanding....
As an aside....I was just discussing this post with my spouse.....and he said something pretty waybrained....even after all of these years....*well I believe that God kept those intentions away from us*....
Well geez....maybe not....you see....we couldn`t accept that our tc, mark`s corpes brother was weak or posessed....the ONLY situation in which suicide would have been an issue.......we were woefully ignorant of how depression works.....
I just told him...that throughout that week.....
I felt a panic...an urgency....close to panic......I daily asked my husband to contact our friend....I was so upset...I called my lc even and asked him to contact our friend......but being a woman and meerly corpes spouse....I was of course blown off and dismissed as being overly emotional.....
Our friend after we helped him get his physicals together....delivered his kids to his spouse and then blew his own brains out.
Here is the really sick part.....our friend immediatly went from respected tc...Son of God ...to dishonor....We all faced questions as to why couldn`t we detect the devil spirits? we weren`t supposed to go to the funeral......we were asked to help clean the house out with the wife whom had left.....everyone pretended like our buddy never existed....there was no remorse..........just an unspoken condemnation for our friends weakness.
Nobody....not my corpes husband, not our state coordinator had been equipped to help this man at his darkest hour......suicide was unthinkable because it involved becoming posessed.....we were woefully ignorant....yet we held peoples lives in the palms of our hands.....
The man lost all respect and honor....he was viewed as posessed and weak......
We are the ones who should be ashamed for presuming to be leaders and authorities.....WE let him down when he needed us most....engulfed in that bottomless pit of dispair.....
I named my first born son whom I was carrying at the time after this man because I felt someone somewhere needed to honor this man and his life....somebody needed to remember him as he honestly was.
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Watered Garden
((((((Rascal, Dot, Exxie)))))
I had no idea during the 70's and 80's that so many suicides happened. Or even near suicides. Though I have contemplated such myself while in TWI.
There was a girl in my WOW branch (Ft. Worth, TX 1974-75) who went into the 7th corps, went home for "ho ho relo", and while her aprents were out shopping, stuck a gun in her mouth and pulled the trigger. I guess it's best not to mention her name here, but if anyone knows anything about it and can PT me???
G*** Pa****** told me about it and said her parents blamed LCM for her suicide. She said he was very upset about it. But that is all I know.
WG
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Nottawayfer
The only suicide I had heard of before going on staff was mentioned by the Right Rev. M*rk W*ll*ce while he was my BC. He told my ex-husband and I that a guy he knew is the Corps went and killed himself because he thought nobody liked him. He used it as a "tool" to help my then husband because he has low self esteem and teetered in his commitment to the cult. My ex's problem wasn't with suicide. He had a drug problem, but the Right Reverend was too dumb to see it. My ex just didn't want to be in twi because he was targeted because of his lack of commitment. The Right Reverend said that had the guy who had commited suicide told someone how he felt, the could have helped him. I think the guy had to have given them some signs before he did it. They were just too stupid to see it. They were too busy being spiritual.
You know, we were supposedly taught to discern spirits, why the H didn't anyone discern them to save these people? I don't think people get possessed when they commit suicide. I think they are just sooooooooo down and hopeless that their logic goes away and they just think that ending it all is the easiest way to get away from the pain. It's a damn shame. The Corps program didn't teach people to reach out to others and help them get up, it taught them to condemn.
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excathedra
dottie, you've remembered more about my life than i'll ever know :wub:
(bad thing about mastering the art of denial, you block both the bad and the good ;))
how dare he ask you for a massage !!!!! hahey johniam and allan, did you read what dot's post ? can you slither around this one "biblically" ?
recently johniam referred to me (in reference to sexual assault by veepee) as something like the greasespot hospice patient who never actually dies. and allan said that if you mention veepee and sex, that rascal's head and my head start spinning
**
rascal, i really do understand a lot about shame and guilt. i'm so thankful you didn't drive off that bridge. and dottie, you know how precious i think your life is, as well. this is a difficult thread, isn't it ?
i think of my corps friend who wrote in his note about wishing he were the man he knew to be. just tears me up.
it's weird, i took pfal and went in corps etc. etc. trying to get over a lot of that worthlessness. i don't know if that is a good reason to commit to god. and i'm not sure i thought about it then. i'm just saying i was teenager who really needed some help with self image.
watered garden, i'm so very sorry you contemplated suicide in the way
many hugs to you too
to condemn themselves in many cases.....i don't think you can help people if you don't really care about them
of course not to mention when you don't know what the hell you're doing (except being thrown a book called "competent to counsel" or something)
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jardinero
Yes, Ex. This has been a very difficult thread to read as the longer we stayed in, the more depression, abuse, etc. we witnessed. I think Rascal expresses some sentiments that many of us who really did idealistically stay in twi because we thought we were "helping people" felt in our own inadequacy to really help or receive revelation or understand the supposed spiritual significance of nearly anything that was really going on. Why was it our God who was so loving didn't show us in multi-media full-color revelation what was going on. It is heartbreaking. Not only did we need help, but we inadvertently probably contributed to people's pain by our well-meant bible magic -- just renew your mind and it'll all be better in the morning. Sigh.
Anyway, Ex said:
The reason that statement stood out was because of the family time I just spent in Calif. over the holidays. I've shared briefly on previous posts about my childhood with a physically violent father who eventually nearly killed me as a teenager and my purpose for my comment wasn't to bring that up, but because I spent some time talking with a cousin of mine discussing our childhood.
My cousin is a psychologist (mid-40s) who was also raised in a violent household, was also estranged from her family (by choice) for some years, and now is doing geneological research on our family. She met with me because our family was broken apart by divorce, alcohol and the effects of the violence where we went our own ways and have only recently gotten back together. She's trying to piece together our stories and what we remember about our family's history, etc.
But back to Ex's statement about denial. When I was unable to remember entire periods of time while she and I were talking, we got into a whole discussion of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I know, Ex, that there are some who still view twi thru their rose-colored glasses and are in total denial that anything other than utopia happened in twi. I do think though that many of us, as we are healing (from many things), are closer to manifesting symptoms of PTSD. My cousin was quick to note the detachment both she and I describe experiences with. It's hard to feel those feelings of trauma, anguish, confusion - - and so we relate some of our stories almost as a third party observer...
Anyway, not sure what my point was except that denial word jumped out to me and I think it's more the brain's way of burying stuff that was traumatic until such time as we can (or maybe never can) receive healing in that area - - and not so much a deliberate decision to deny the reality of what we lived.
Thank you ladies for sharing here. My cousin and I wept together as we shared some of our stories and I recognize how difficult it must be to discuss some of this here.
Love to you.
J.
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satori001
Bullcrap. A self-serving prick, riding high in the center ring of Wierwille's circus, sotted with self-importance, just like many or most of his wretchedly self-promoting, self-serving colleagues "of the cloth" in Way World. (Yes, yes, there were exceptions. We all know one or two.) Of course, his defenders can always point to Martindale, who was worse. Small consolation though.
How many people did the Way International leadership get to "write off." Hundreds, collectively, if not individually? Thousands, more likely. Invariably, the written-off were "possessed," which is to say, fatally low on requisite "meekness to leadership."
"Write off" is the perfect phrase. Marked and avoided - or just written off. Not even a casualty. Not even collateral damage. Just a write-off.
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Catcup
Every person The Way International or it's designated ministers could drive to suicide was one less person who could expose their dirty truth.
It is my own personal opinion, that in that respect, some of the so called "suicides" may have actually been murders.
The person is grief-stricken, confused, and depressed. They are intentionally isolated from their only support network, and intentionally taught that:
"Your life no longer matters to God," and that "...the household would be better off if you didn't take up space on the earth!" and "...You are no longer fit to breathe the same air as the faithful believers!" And the clincher: "...You would be better off if you would drop dead, in order to save your rewards!"
Those specific directives were quoted many, many times by Craig Martindale in Corps nights AND Advanced Class Specials that I attended. I witnessed every word, every viscious, calculated word spit forth from his perverted mouth. I took notes, and have handed them over to the legal team.
I personally believe certain of those suicides may have been murder by design.
This is MY OWN personal opinion, which I have a perfect and legal right to. Yours may vary.
But think about it. It really is the perfect crime. If you have approached a person with sexually servicing you and they deny you, or if they are aware of your secret behaviors, you're in a real fix. You don't want them around because what they may know could be extremely dangerous to your reputation and especially your livelihood. So you use everything and everyone in your power to stop them.
So, there is a self-destruct message included among the indoctrination. Along with completely separating and isolating people from any support network whatsoever other than The Way, you build into the doctrine a person's worthlessness to God if they "cop out." Then at the proper time if need be, the person is mentally, physically, emotionally, financially and or spiritually harassed by whatever means The Way International has at their disposal, to the point of confusion and desperation, and then they are summarily dumped while in a completely vulnerable state.
Whatever is in the power of The Way International, they will and have used, especially at but not limited to HQ: Intimidation techniques (legal and otherwise), the person's so-called Way friends, innie family members, spouse, even goons from the Safety Department to pack your things while you are in the office being confronted, and then they dump you curbside like the ripped bag of maggot-dripping garbage you now believe you are. Then they continue defaming you in every public and private forum available to them, to everyone who ever mattered to you.
In that greatly disturbed and completely vulnerable state, all that person knows and believes and can fall back on is what they have been taught: they are the one who is screwed up, it's their fault, they are a burden to and have brought shame upon themselves, upon the "household," upon the "ministry that taught them the Word," and upon even God Himself. And in order to save what little rewards they may have left, it "would be better for them to die."
So they do it by their own hand. For the good of the "household" and the furtherance of "The Word." They take solace in the fact that their final act in that way is somewhat redeeming, because they are "...removing their sorry carcass from the face of the earth (Craig's words)."
Look Ma, no fingerprints.
Except God sees. God knows.
And He will NOT FORGET.
Nor will I.
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excathedra
thanks jardi, i do know what you mean
i've been corresponding with a wonderful human being, Andrew Vachss, i can't even explain how much he has helped me
if research geeks forgiveness thread were around, i would post on it
i know this is an aside of sorts, but i can't help mentioning it
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topoftheworld
Satari001 is correct about the "write-off's". If you couldn't manifest the right "spirit", you were relegated to the bottom of barrel and then booted when the opportunity appeared.
Rascal & Dot: Your courage in sharing is unbelievable. It takes true strength to be willing to share what you have, and to TRUST that others will respect that as well.
The PDSS is very real. I'm not completely ready yet to share my story, but believe me when I say that it was years before I felt any sense of normalcy. My first ten years out were divided into two parts: daily survival and daily condemation for leaving TWI. For many reasons-some related to TWI and some not-it has been a struggle every day to find a reason to want to wake up the next. Every day I would find a reason, and I have no idea why. The past twenty years have only improved slightly, but I've discovered that every time I begin to get close to someone, I self-destruct so that people won't have to see the "real me"; and I've begun to see that it is in large part a direct result of what happened to me at the end of TWI. The stuff keeps me from people who made actually care, but because they aren't "believer's", I can't trust them. The mental crap is deeply imbedded. Being here is helping: at least I could finally see that mine is not an abnormal story. But I do understand that dark tunnel.
At least we have each other.
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excathedra
catcup, please don't be mad at me, but how can groups / splinters think so highly of veepee ? (please, not for YOU personally to answer)
like tina says, i don't really wanna fight no more
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Catcup
Well, you addressed me personally, so how can it NOT be for me to personally answer?
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excathedra
ok sorry
i am wrong
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Catcup
You are forgiven.
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Shellon
Catcup said:
" Except God sees. God knows.
And He will NOT FORGET.
Nor will I."
And my children and me, we do not forget.
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excathedra
thank you cc
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Catcup
XO, ex.
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