Mine is a 73....It messes me up cause the gears are on the wrong side.....oops sorry for the derail....it shouldda been taken to pm....lol
Just goes to show, we aren`t always as entirely evil as we appear to be here ....There is always SOME redeeming quality to be found if you look hard enough :P
So you think that fruit is optional? Kind of makes sense the way you present it.....however what about a bad tree bringing forth good fruit or a good tree bringing forth bad fruit......Personally, I`d say that the legacy of twi counts as some mighty putrid fruit.....
RASCAL,
I do not believe that fruit is optional. Fruit is not really something we can "control" anymore than the tree can decide what it bears. Fruit is evidnce of inner health. Puny or putrid fruit - very sickly tree.
I do believe that there is always a difference between what we have and what we show. The best time to really see someone is when they don't think your'e looking. All those nine qualities in Galatians - they can be faked. BUT fi you are watching someone you will really see what they are made of.
This is really more philosophical than I care to get into right now. -
And I wasn't really thinking that you were judging Om - but I'm always on guard. Oh heck, maybe I was just being nosey. Anyway, good that the two of you can celebrate what you have in common.
I have been posting here for 5yrs. I never read this article. I am ashamed of my past relationship with the Way....This is so sad and so pathetic......How in the h*ll can one justify staying in.....Its blasphamy.....the absolute worst. I cannot think right..my emotions have gone arry and I will pull it together soon.......
Driven to Suicide - by Catcup
Note of explanation: Tom Mitchell's widow is none other than recently remarried Ramona (Hannig) Bidon - a named defendant in the Allen lawsuit and sex partner of Craig Martindale for many years.
Tom Mitchell served on staff in the Safety Department at TWI HQ in 1995. Rather abruptly, Tom decided to leave staff and convinced his wife Ramona (Mitchell Bidon Hannig) to come with him.
Ramona did not leave HQ grounds that day. Tom left HQ alone.
Take it however you will, but it has been reported that Ramona confided to others that she spent that afternoon with Martindale having sex in his motor coach.
Within 12 - 24 hours of this incident (precise time frame uncertain), Tom Mitchell, obviously terribly horrified and distraught, went out into the back yard of his parents' home and shot himself in the head.
When Martindale was made aware that Mitchell had committed suicide, he was enraged. He went off on a group of in resident WC who reported that he was angrier than they had ever seen him - going so far as to threaten them physically and challenging any of them to take him on in a physical fight.
During a Corps meeting, Martindale bragged to the Way Corps that it was his intervention that probably saved Ramona's life, and slandered her dead husband by insinuating that had Ramona left HQ with her husband, that Tom would have shot her too.
I don't buy Martindale's "cover story". Not for a New York second.
I have a few questions.
What was it that caused Tom Mitchell to want to leave HQ so abruptly and beg his wife to accompany him?
Why was it so important to Martindale to keep Ramona and let her husband go?
What was Martindale's relationship with Ramona just prior to Tom wanting to leave?
Why was it sooooooo urgent that Ramona not leave HQ?
What happened to Tom to so totally devastate and confuse him that he would take his own life?
It is reported by a fellow GreaseSpot poster that immediately prior to walking out into the backyard with that pistol, that Tom phoned him and lamented "I just cannot compete with him (LCM) anymore!"
And why was it Martindale was so angry regarding the attention this suicide garnered? I wonder what it was Ol' Craigger was afraid would come to light if they had both gotten out of HQ that day.
Was Tom driven to suicide? Apparently so. I wonder why?
What is suspiciously absent in this incident is the expression of any concern whatsoever from Martindale for Tom Mitchell. Rather, he appeared desperately distraught over the news that Ramona might leave. Does it bother anyone else, that upon hearing that Tom was leaving HQ, that LCM did not show any concern over Tom or what issues he may have had? I mean, here is a man, who for all practical purposes loved his job. He loved being in The Way corps. He loved being on staff. Then suddenly, out of the blue, he wants to leave? That situation begs to have someone go to TOM immediately and find out what happened to cause him to so suddenly want to leave. However, according to reports of Martindale's reaction, there seems to be an utter disregard for Tom himself.
Why, in that leaders meeting, do we not have anyone telling us how concerned Martindale was that this man who was obviously in a trusted position, and outwardly appeared so happy, abruptly wants to bolt? Why don't we hear Martindale instructing Bill Greene to stop Tom, saying "Tell Tom I really want to talk to him. I want to hear him explain to me what is going on, why he so suddenly wants to leave?" Obviously, he should have been concerned about Tom. Why wasn't he?
I think the striking absence of concern for Tom is alarming in this situation. Instead, Martindale appears to have only been concerned that his piece of tail was about to run away.
TWI teaches that only the weak and devil-possessed commit suicide. It is common for those who have succumbed, to be loudly and roundly defamed by name from the pulpit by Martindale , as being mentally weak and spiritual cowards. Martindale so vehemently defames and slanders the names of such people so as to eliminate any memory of the good these people have ever
done.
Martindale went so far as to claim that had he allowed Ramona to accompany her husband when he left, that Tom would have MURDERED her. Martindale accused this man, who could not defend himself from the grave, of plotting his own wife's MURDER. This accusation, Martindale leveled against a man who just weeks earlier would have laid down his own life in order to protect him.
One believer related how cold and harsh and uncaring Ramona appeared just days after her husband's death. To this day, when Ramona speaks of her late husband, it is said that she speaks of him in the most detestable terms, as being a spineless coward and a spiritual weakling. However, from all indications, specifically to those who knew him well, Tom was an exceptionally strong individual, physically, mentally, and spiritually. I believe what happened to Tom testifies to the severity and the depth and the power of the evil that preys upon people in TWI.
I wonder if Martindale feels any shame over this incident? You'd think if he did, he would have changed his behavior. Instead, it appears he just kept right on going without missing a beat or a single night's sleep over it.
Martindale allegedly continued his sexual coercions for FIVE MORE YEARS. It is amazing how he reportedly could go straight from sexually harassing and groping a woman in the piano room in the auditorium to walking right out and teaching a Corps morning.
This man displays neither conscience nor moral compass. He has NEVER expressed true remorse for anything he has done. And just look at what he has left in his wake. Can you imagine that there are still people in that organization who want this man back? I think it is pretty darned important to keep reminding people of just how reprobate he really is.
All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do *nothing*.
Responses from GreaseSpot's Forum:
Washington Weather:
"This is a tragedy........so sad. How can they live with themselves...all of them. It is the only thing to do to bring honor back to a man who died without the love and respect of his peers who were told all kinds of LIES about his death. The few who are alive who knew and loved him are standing up for him... continue to bring Honor and Respect.. to someone who had
it stolen, killed and destroyed."
Maure:
"I cannot imagine the horror of having your husband commit suicide and have your pastor, who has improperly used his position to have sex with you, claim that by doing so he saved your life."
Wayrunner:
"I was told this very same thing by an ex-corp alumni. I was utterly sickened and (disgusted) by such cold hearted filth like LCM. Iwas also told that Tom M. loved being in the corp and that suicide would have never happened had LCM left his wife alone."
FreshAir:
"Amazing... And, Bill Greene............what a waste of his life. How do people like him sleep at night" [/size]
(((Likeaneagle))) It is a tough thing to realize that the people whom we were trusting to lead us spiritually....just simply did not have our purity of heart :(
It takes uncommon orneriness to do this sort of thing.....the death of that man rides aquarly on martindale`s shoulders.....and instead of Godly sorrow...what does the guy do? He savages the poor deceased mans reputation.....sad really pathetic.
As tough as this is to come top grips with though......it is the beginning of understanding and honesty....it is better to know and to heal....than to remain decieved.
The Way International wil continue to hold the individuals who committed suicide in disgrace.
It is our job to bring Honor and Respect to these people who had their very heart's breath stolen from them. It is not our job to judge or crititique.
It is our job to show the world the greatness of those peoples lives becasue TWI shadows these people with criticism and ridicule.
It is our job to stand up for the Tom Mitchell's and Rochelle Wayneburg's and others........FURTHERMORE it is our obligation to regain the honor of those who died innocently for reasons of good intention fueled by erroneous "doctorine" as discussed earlier on this thread (like Shell's husband.) As much as it is our obligation to speak out when a wrong is committed.
There is absolutely no reason I could ever go back, no reason I could ever accept TWI's pitiful narcisistic sociopathic mindset. Those who consider it with out knowing all the facts are simply like fish ignorant of the hook in the bait.
So you think that fruit is optional? Kind of makes sense the way you present it.....however what about a bad tree bringing forth good fruit or a good tree bringing forth bad fruit......Personally, I`d say that the legacy of twi counts as some mighty putrid fruit.....
Certainly *fruit* is optional -- if the one who should bear it chooses not to.
But many produce fruit (wanted or not), and it is by the fruit, that the *parent* is judged.
By being told to judge others *by their fruit*
(be it off-spring, converts, actions, whatever),
the impetus is to look at what the person (or org) has PRODUCED that is beneficial
I hope you don't mind me sticking my head in here.
But you're right; according to the bible, fruit isn't optional, it's automatic if one is a real Christian, or follower of Jesus.
Luke 13 describes a tree that is bearing no fruit. The Lord gives it more time at the urgence of a servant. If it doesn't bear fruit eventually, it will be cut down.
John 15:5-6 Talks about Jesus' followers abiding in him, the true vine, and if they do, they produce much fruit. If they don't abide, they will be gathered to be burned as they are no good.
So according to the bible, you abide in the Lord, you bear fruit. If one doesn't abide in what they profess to believe, no fruit.
So you're right, it's not optional if one bears fruit or not. And most certainly, the fruit borne would not be in direct opposition to the fruit requird by Jesus and neither would it match the works of the flesh found in Galatians. Repeatedly, over and over again, no less.
TWI made us the masters of our our salvation and Lords of the manifestation of that supposed salavation. And we can all see how great that turned out in by the damage and destruction done to people's lives.
You know, It occurs to me that even w/o all the obviously bad stuff there was also a very insidious underlying evil - Pride.
I remember being a very prideful, extremely NOT humble person. That alone has got to account for a lot of the crap that happened. W/O humility a lot is lacking in the life of a Christian.
It takes uncommon orneriness to do this sort of thing.....the death of that man rides aquarly on martindale`s shoulders.....and instead of Godly sorrow...what does the guy do? He savages the poor deceased mans reputation.....sad really pathetic.
If you are going to blame Tom's death squarely on Craig's shoulders, I would have to disagree.
I believe Craig shares some responsibility, Ramona shares some responsibility, and Tom shares some responsibility.
CRAIG threw a hissy and wouldn`t allow Ramona to leave.
CRAIG had responsibity to minister to Tom as his leader.
CRAIG didn`t give a tinkers damn about ANYONE or ANYTHING except his piece of tail was getting away
I`d say h-ll yeah .... the responibility rests squarely on his shoulders....he was in charge...physically and spiritually....he took advantage of his position and power....he savaged the poor guy to absolve himself of responsibility and had to make himself look like a hero by the abominable lie that Tom would have murdered Ramona.....His behavior was reprehensible.
Poor Tom`s only fault was loving a weak woman.....and having the misfortune of an evil man as his spiritual leader.
The poor guy had no where to go.
My friend committed suicide when his wife left him to live with his corpes buddy.....the betrayal and loss was more than he could bear.
He delivered the kids she had left behind.....and then blew his brains out....
Yeah she was pretty awfull...her actions were reprehensible...but she DID attempt to leave with her husband at first.
If craig had done the right thing as a spiritual leader and brother n Christ.......instead of influencing her with everything at his disposal to stay with him instead of her husband.....the outcome would have been very different.....
Come on......it wasn`t like anybody could be on equal footing with lcm....
It wasn`t like LCM really loved her either....
What it reminds me of is the story that nathan told David about the rich man stealing the one single precious little lamb that his neighbor owned.
The betrayal by the two people that Tom should have been safely able to trust was overwhelming....
This situation shows what a heartless self centered monster Craig Martinadale really was and the atmosphere that thrived at hq.....
I don't know Ramona - but she had a choice and she made a choice - the wrong one.
I would like to think that I would have left anyway. One would expect her to leave as well and tell LCM to call her later
UNLESS....She really wanted to be wanted by the MOG.
UNLESS - She was afraid - afraid to leave because of ramifications and bieng part of Craigo's rantings after she left. Afraid of not being in TWI.
UNLESS She believed that LCM really did love her and was proving it by calling for her.
None of this is noble. None of this makes her right. Ultimately she never should have been with LCM to begin with. The word"NO!" works. You can say that LCM abused his power - but i'll submit that perhaps she wanted to have some of that power. Again - I don't know her but as a wife and mother I can only think of how I would act and feel. I would not have let my hubby leave w/o me.
She shares the blame. I think to a lesser extent than LCM - but not much less.
Tom was a vicitm - he made a choice as well - probably a choice fueled by clinical depression ( I can only assume - I'm familiar with this as a loved one has suffered with this for years) from years of seeing his wife run off to another man who was his superior. ( also, I would like to think that my hubby would not have left w/o me.) But again, if he was truly feeling like he could never win - then he conceded - everything. Sad
Lots of assumptions - but sometimes one needs to set up hyupotheticals to get closer to walking in another's shoes.
my husband dated Ramona briefly - she was a kaniving (sp?) witch...just as sociopathic as martindale!
She would have done well on the apprentice
I heard derrogatory comments from Ramona's very own mouth about her late husband even after martinfail left HQ. I don't think he was an ex because he killed himself before a divorce could even happen. At the time, I believed the BS story that martinfail "saved" her from death because Tom was possessed enough to go kill himself and had Ramona been there, she would have been dead also. WTF! Did martinfail get revelation on that???!!! I think NOT!!! This is one of the worst scenarios I've heard so far. It's a damn shame, and martinfail should fry in hell for this. Ramona can move on and forget because she has a new husband. I wonder how the new husband felt after he learned his wife had been banging the MOGGIE. It's all sick. She needs to be smartened up. She has the brains of a slug.
Ramona Bidon was a defendant in the Allen vs. The Way International lawsuit. She bought into the doctrine Martindale learned from Slick Vic and taught to his inner circle:
Sex is nothing more than satisfying a physical urge like scratching an itch: "like sticking your finger in your ear," as Slick Prick Vic was fond of saying in the Christian Family and Sex class, and Craig was fond of quoting both in public and private counsel.
Sex between two adults, married or not, married to each other or not, is A-OK with God as long as the participants have a "renewed mind" about it and can "handle" it.
Any woman who lends her body to "the man of God" is rendering a special service, even has a special ministry within the body of Christ.
Those with this special ministry were gatekeepers responsible for scoping out the flock for potential servants, instructing them in the sex doctrine of the inner circle, and then filling the 'Man of God's' stables with fresh new fillies to service his needs.
This task Ms. Bidon and others apparently took personally. This is one of the reasons she was named as a defendant in the above-named legal action. She allegedly actively indoctrinated and recruited sex toys for Martindale.
Yes, I believe she is evil and accountable. And for more than just the death of her husband.
And mind you, these people who were gatekeepers in the inner circle, are still in The Way International, and still part of the inner circle. Rosalie Rivenbark is allegedly one of them.
Perhaps helping keep the Man of God's stable full left his wife free for other -ahem- services...
The judge in the aforementioned legal action felt Rivenbark was privy to certain of Martindale's actions. It's public knowlege, revealed in the legal documents.
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rascal
I have a Harly sportster that is in a sad shape of neglect.....sigh yes I AM a sinner :( .
One day I dream of getting it running, but it is not a priority to ride till I get the kiddos raised......
We have a problem with dear/dogs induced accidents and death.
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oldiesman
I've ridden the 883 Sportster... very nice bike
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rascal
Mine is a 73....It messes me up cause the gears are on the wrong side.....oops sorry for the derail....it shouldda been taken to pm....lol
Just goes to show, we aren`t always as entirely evil as we appear to be here ....There is always SOME redeeming quality to be found if you look hard enough :P
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doojable
So you think that fruit is optional? Kind of makes sense the way you present it.....however what about a bad tree bringing forth good fruit or a good tree bringing forth bad fruit......Personally, I`d say that the legacy of twi counts as some mighty putrid fruit.....
RASCAL,
I do not believe that fruit is optional. Fruit is not really something we can "control" anymore than the tree can decide what it bears. Fruit is evidnce of inner health. Puny or putrid fruit - very sickly tree.
I do believe that there is always a difference between what we have and what we show. The best time to really see someone is when they don't think your'e looking. All those nine qualities in Galatians - they can be faked. BUT fi you are watching someone you will really see what they are made of.
This is really more philosophical than I care to get into right now. -
And I wasn't really thinking that you were judging Om - but I'm always on guard. Oh heck, maybe I was just being nosey. Anyway, good that the two of you can celebrate what you have in common.
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likeaneagle
I have been posting here for 5yrs. I never read this article. I am ashamed of my past relationship with the Way....This is so sad and so pathetic......How in the h*ll can one justify staying in.....Its blasphamy.....the absolute worst. I cannot think right..my emotions have gone arry and I will pull it together soon.......
Driven to Suicide - by Catcup
Note of explanation: Tom Mitchell's widow is none other than recently remarried Ramona (Hannig) Bidon - a named defendant in the Allen lawsuit and sex partner of Craig Martindale for many years.
Tom Mitchell served on staff in the Safety Department at TWI HQ in 1995. Rather abruptly, Tom decided to leave staff and convinced his wife Ramona (Mitchell Bidon Hannig) to come with him.
Craig Martindale became aware during a leader's meeting he was conducting, that Tom and Ramona were leaving. Martindale reportedly became quite alarmed. In the middle of this meeting, in front of a room full of assembled top leadership who witnessed this, Martindale allegedly requested Bill Greene to immediately go out and STOP Ramona from leaving HQ with her husband. It is reported he said something to Greene to the effect of "Tell her I want to see her.. You make sure she doesn't go anywhere... You married her, you have entrée into her life, she will listen to you", basically, Martindale told Greene not to let her leave grounds.
Ramona did not leave HQ grounds that day. Tom left HQ alone.
Take it however you will, but it has been reported that Ramona confided to others that she spent that afternoon with Martindale having sex in his motor coach.
Within 12 - 24 hours of this incident (precise time frame uncertain), Tom Mitchell, obviously terribly horrified and distraught, went out into the back yard of his parents' home and shot himself in the head.
When Martindale was made aware that Mitchell had committed suicide, he was enraged. He went off on a group of in resident WC who reported that he was angrier than they had ever seen him - going so far as to threaten them physically and challenging any of them to take him on in a physical fight.
During a Corps meeting, Martindale bragged to the Way Corps that it was his intervention that probably saved Ramona's life, and slandered her dead husband by insinuating that had Ramona left HQ with her husband, that Tom would have shot her too.
I don't buy Martindale's "cover story". Not for a New York second.
I have a few questions.
What was it that caused Tom Mitchell to want to leave HQ so abruptly and beg his wife to accompany him?
Why was it so important to Martindale to keep Ramona and let her husband go?
What was Martindale's relationship with Ramona just prior to Tom wanting to leave?
Why was it sooooooo urgent that Ramona not leave HQ?
What happened to Tom to so totally devastate and confuse him that he would take his own life?
It is reported by a fellow GreaseSpot poster that immediately prior to walking out into the backyard with that pistol, that Tom phoned him and lamented "I just cannot compete with him (LCM) anymore!"
And why was it Martindale was so angry regarding the attention this suicide garnered? I wonder what it was Ol' Craigger was afraid would come to light if they had both gotten out of HQ that day.
Was Tom driven to suicide? Apparently so. I wonder why?
What is suspiciously absent in this incident is the expression of any concern whatsoever from Martindale for Tom Mitchell. Rather, he appeared desperately distraught over the news that Ramona might leave. Does it bother anyone else, that upon hearing that Tom was leaving HQ, that LCM did not show any concern over Tom or what issues he may have had? I mean, here is a man, who for all practical purposes loved his job. He loved being in The Way corps. He loved being on staff. Then suddenly, out of the blue, he wants to leave? That situation begs to have someone go to TOM immediately and find out what happened to cause him to so suddenly want to leave. However, according to reports of Martindale's reaction, there seems to be an utter disregard for Tom himself.
Why, in that leaders meeting, do we not have anyone telling us how concerned Martindale was that this man who was obviously in a trusted position, and outwardly appeared so happy, abruptly wants to bolt? Why don't we hear Martindale instructing Bill Greene to stop Tom, saying "Tell Tom I really want to talk to him. I want to hear him explain to me what is going on, why he so suddenly wants to leave?" Obviously, he should have been concerned about Tom. Why wasn't he?
I think the striking absence of concern for Tom is alarming in this situation. Instead, Martindale appears to have only been concerned that his piece of tail was about to run away.
TWI teaches that only the weak and devil-possessed commit suicide. It is common for those who have succumbed, to be loudly and roundly defamed by name from the pulpit by Martindale , as being mentally weak and spiritual cowards. Martindale so vehemently defames and slanders the names of such people so as to eliminate any memory of the good these people have ever
done.
Martindale went so far as to claim that had he allowed Ramona to accompany her husband when he left, that Tom would have MURDERED her. Martindale accused this man, who could not defend himself from the grave, of plotting his own wife's MURDER. This accusation, Martindale leveled against a man who just weeks earlier would have laid down his own life in order to protect him.
One believer related how cold and harsh and uncaring Ramona appeared just days after her husband's death. To this day, when Ramona speaks of her late husband, it is said that she speaks of him in the most detestable terms, as being a spineless coward and a spiritual weakling. However, from all indications, specifically to those who knew him well, Tom was an exceptionally strong individual, physically, mentally, and spiritually. I believe what happened to Tom testifies to the severity and the depth and the power of the evil that preys upon people in TWI.
I wonder if Martindale feels any shame over this incident? You'd think if he did, he would have changed his behavior. Instead, it appears he just kept right on going without missing a beat or a single night's sleep over it.
Martindale allegedly continued his sexual coercions for FIVE MORE YEARS. It is amazing how he reportedly could go straight from sexually harassing and groping a woman in the piano room in the auditorium to walking right out and teaching a Corps morning.
This man displays neither conscience nor moral compass. He has NEVER expressed true remorse for anything he has done. And just look at what he has left in his wake. Can you imagine that there are still people in that organization who want this man back? I think it is pretty darned important to keep reminding people of just how reprobate he really is.
All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do *nothing*.
Responses from GreaseSpot's Forum:
Washington Weather:
"This is a tragedy........so sad. How can they live with themselves...all of them. It is the only thing to do to bring honor back to a man who died without the love and respect of his peers who were told all kinds of LIES about his death. The few who are alive who knew and loved him are standing up for him... continue to bring Honor and Respect.. to someone who had
it stolen, killed and destroyed."
Maure:
"I cannot imagine the horror of having your husband commit suicide and have your pastor, who has improperly used his position to have sex with you, claim that by doing so he saved your life."
Wayrunner:
"I was told this very same thing by an ex-corp alumni. I was utterly sickened and (disgusted) by such cold hearted filth like LCM. Iwas also told that Tom M. loved being in the corp and that suicide would have never happened had LCM left his wife alone."
FreshAir:
"Amazing... And, Bill Greene............what a waste of his life. How do people like him sleep at night" [/size]
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rascal
(((Likeaneagle))) It is a tough thing to realize that the people whom we were trusting to lead us spiritually....just simply did not have our purity of heart :(
It takes uncommon orneriness to do this sort of thing.....the death of that man rides aquarly on martindale`s shoulders.....and instead of Godly sorrow...what does the guy do? He savages the poor deceased mans reputation.....sad really pathetic.
As tough as this is to come top grips with though......it is the beginning of understanding and honesty....it is better to know and to heal....than to remain decieved.
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likeaneagle
thank you Rascal...decieved no more.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
this may be a bad thing to say but i will say it anyway
unless martidale repents for all of the rotten things he did
i hope god damns him and he will be in hell forever
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
speaking of fruit
you plant fruit you get fruit
you plant nuts you get nuts
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washingtonweather
I said it before and I will say it again,
The Way International wil continue to hold the individuals who committed suicide in disgrace.
It is our job to bring Honor and Respect to these people who had their very heart's breath stolen from them. It is not our job to judge or crititique.
It is our job to show the world the greatness of those peoples lives becasue TWI shadows these people with criticism and ridicule.
It is our job to stand up for the Tom Mitchell's and Rochelle Wayneburg's and others........FURTHERMORE it is our obligation to regain the honor of those who died innocently for reasons of good intention fueled by erroneous "doctorine" as discussed earlier on this thread (like Shell's husband.) As much as it is our obligation to speak out when a wrong is committed.
There is absolutely no reason I could ever go back, no reason I could ever accept TWI's pitiful narcisistic sociopathic mindset. Those who consider it with out knowing all the facts are simply like fish ignorant of the hook in the bait.
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dmiller
Certainly *fruit* is optional -- if the one who should bear it chooses not to.
But many produce fruit (wanted or not), and it is by the fruit, that the *parent* is judged.
By being told to judge others *by their fruit*
(be it off-spring, converts, actions, whatever),
the impetus is to look at what the person (or org) has PRODUCED that is beneficial
And judge the org (parent) accordingly.
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Allan
It's a bit ironic, I remember VPW saying one time that "God would not be a righteous God if there was no judgement day" !
I think one of the greatest evils is a denial of natural justice.
Without a fear of cosequences there is no fear of judgement, without a fear of judgement there is no fear of consequences.
Pretty much what is up with the world right now !!
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dmiller
Pretty much what docvic taught, eh???
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Samurai
Hey Rascal,
I hope you don't mind me sticking my head in here.
But you're right; according to the bible, fruit isn't optional, it's automatic if one is a real Christian, or follower of Jesus.
Luke 13 describes a tree that is bearing no fruit. The Lord gives it more time at the urgence of a servant. If it doesn't bear fruit eventually, it will be cut down.
John 15:5-6 Talks about Jesus' followers abiding in him, the true vine, and if they do, they produce much fruit. If they don't abide, they will be gathered to be burned as they are no good.
So according to the bible, you abide in the Lord, you bear fruit. If one doesn't abide in what they profess to believe, no fruit.
So you're right, it's not optional if one bears fruit or not. And most certainly, the fruit borne would not be in direct opposition to the fruit requird by Jesus and neither would it match the works of the flesh found in Galatians. Repeatedly, over and over again, no less.
TWI made us the masters of our our salvation and Lords of the manifestation of that supposed salavation. And we can all see how great that turned out in by the damage and destruction done to people's lives.
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doojable
You know, It occurs to me that even w/o all the obviously bad stuff there was also a very insidious underlying evil - Pride.
I remember being a very prideful, extremely NOT humble person. That alone has got to account for a lot of the crap that happened. W/O humility a lot is lacking in the life of a Christian.
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oldiesman
If you are going to blame Tom's death squarely on Craig's shoulders, I would have to disagree.
I believe Craig shares some responsibility, Ramona shares some responsibility, and Tom shares some responsibility.
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rascal
CRAIG was the spiritual leader.
CRAIG threw a hissy and wouldn`t allow Ramona to leave.
CRAIG had responsibity to minister to Tom as his leader.
CRAIG didn`t give a tinkers damn about ANYONE or ANYTHING except his piece of tail was getting away
I`d say h-ll yeah .... the responibility rests squarely on his shoulders....he was in charge...physically and spiritually....he took advantage of his position and power....he savaged the poor guy to absolve himself of responsibility and had to make himself look like a hero by the abominable lie that Tom would have murdered Ramona.....His behavior was reprehensible.
Poor Tom`s only fault was loving a weak woman.....and having the misfortune of an evil man as his spiritual leader.
The poor guy had no where to go.
My friend committed suicide when his wife left him to live with his corpes buddy.....the betrayal and loss was more than he could bear.
He delivered the kids she had left behind.....and then blew his brains out....
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oldiesman
So then Ramona was just weak...
She wasn't evil, as well?
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rascal
Yeah she was pretty awfull...her actions were reprehensible...but she DID attempt to leave with her husband at first.
If craig had done the right thing as a spiritual leader and brother n Christ.......instead of influencing her with everything at his disposal to stay with him instead of her husband.....the outcome would have been very different.....
Come on......it wasn`t like anybody could be on equal footing with lcm....
It wasn`t like LCM really loved her either....
What it reminds me of is the story that nathan told David about the rich man stealing the one single precious little lamb that his neighbor owned.
The betrayal by the two people that Tom should have been safely able to trust was overwhelming....
This situation shows what a heartless self centered monster Craig Martinadale really was and the atmosphere that thrived at hq.....
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washingtonweather
okay I must weigh in here...
my husband dated Ramona briefly -[delete]
She would have done well on the apprentice
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rascal
Yeah wash I know, my husband knew her at lead....he agrees with your sumary.....
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doojable
I don't know Ramona - but she had a choice and she made a choice - the wrong one.
I would like to think that I would have left anyway. One would expect her to leave as well and tell LCM to call her later
UNLESS....She really wanted to be wanted by the MOG.
UNLESS - She was afraid - afraid to leave because of ramifications and bieng part of Craigo's rantings after she left. Afraid of not being in TWI.
UNLESS She believed that LCM really did love her and was proving it by calling for her.
None of this is noble. None of this makes her right. Ultimately she never should have been with LCM to begin with. The word"NO!" works. You can say that LCM abused his power - but i'll submit that perhaps she wanted to have some of that power. Again - I don't know her but as a wife and mother I can only think of how I would act and feel. I would not have let my hubby leave w/o me.
She shares the blame. I think to a lesser extent than LCM - but not much less.
Tom was a vicitm - he made a choice as well - probably a choice fueled by clinical depression ( I can only assume - I'm familiar with this as a loved one has suffered with this for years) from years of seeing his wife run off to another man who was his superior. ( also, I would like to think that my hubby would not have left w/o me.) But again, if he was truly feeling like he could never win - then he conceded - everything. Sad
Lots of assumptions - but sometimes one needs to set up hyupotheticals to get closer to walking in another's shoes.
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Nottawayfer
I heard derrogatory comments from Ramona's very own mouth about her late husband even after martinfail left HQ. I don't think he was an ex because he killed himself before a divorce could even happen. At the time, I believed the BS story that martinfail "saved" her from death because Tom was possessed enough to go kill himself and had Ramona been there, she would have been dead also. WTF! Did martinfail get revelation on that???!!! I think NOT!!! This is one of the worst scenarios I've heard so far. It's a damn shame, and martinfail should fry in hell for this. Ramona can move on and forget because she has a new husband. I wonder how the new husband felt after he learned his wife had been banging the MOGGIE. It's all sick. She needs to be smartened up. She has the brains of a slug.
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Catcup
Ramona Bidon was a defendant in the Allen vs. The Way International lawsuit. She bought into the doctrine Martindale learned from Slick Vic and taught to his inner circle:
Sex is nothing more than satisfying a physical urge like scratching an itch: "like sticking your finger in your ear," as Slick Prick Vic was fond of saying in the Christian Family and Sex class, and Craig was fond of quoting both in public and private counsel.
Sex between two adults, married or not, married to each other or not, is A-OK with God as long as the participants have a "renewed mind" about it and can "handle" it.
Any woman who lends her body to "the man of God" is rendering a special service, even has a special ministry within the body of Christ.
Those with this special ministry were gatekeepers responsible for scoping out the flock for potential servants, instructing them in the sex doctrine of the inner circle, and then filling the 'Man of God's' stables with fresh new fillies to service his needs.
This task Ms. Bidon and others apparently took personally. This is one of the reasons she was named as a defendant in the above-named legal action. She allegedly actively indoctrinated and recruited sex toys for Martindale.
Yes, I believe she is evil and accountable. And for more than just the death of her husband.
And mind you, these people who were gatekeepers in the inner circle, are still in The Way International, and still part of the inner circle. Rosalie Rivenbark is allegedly one of them.
Perhaps helping keep the Man of God's stable full left his wife free for other -ahem- services...
The judge in the aforementioned legal action felt Rivenbark was privy to certain of Martindale's actions. It's public knowlege, revealed in the legal documents.
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