Prochaine, don't feel bad, I was on staff at Emporia and PL hated just about everyone - you were not alone. We had our run in the first week she arrived there. My brother, 12th corps, summed it up best when he said, she was one of the most neurotic people he'd ever worked with.
PL was always on the lookout for homos, male and female. But, I also knew she was miserable being at Emporia, did not want to be a corps coordinator, was following John. She just was truly unhappy and took it out on people. She made up some terrible things about me and told DM a bunch of bull. Unfortunately, DM believed it, but that's another story. But Pat made up stuff about a lot of people - outrageous stuff, plus accused innocent kids of devil possesion, etc. - I was amazed when someone on my job crew would come back in tears telling me about a meeting with PL that was so off the wall, so I really wasn't too surprised to hear the ignorant, made up stuff she said about me. I even told DM, one day you will realize this lady is off her rocker.
To keep her life happy, PL would also pick a studly young male from the corps and have a "relationship" with him. I always wondered how she could be having her affair right under JAL's nose, and JAL seemed to care less - just oblivious. It was then I realized they must have an open marriage. PL basically had only a couple of people she felt comfortable hanging out with - and they too were pieces of work.
PL was just never really fulfilled, was frustrated and couldn't wait to leave Emporia. I do hope she is happy now though. I still think she was a good person who was just terribly angry and unhappy and there was no where for her to go - she was truly trapped. Now that I am older, it is pretty obvious what she was going through. I noted her favorite song was "Don't Fence Me In." Very appropriate.
Not that I am am defending ANYTHING pl did to you folks, I am so sorry that you had to endure that crap from someone whom was supposed to be helping you to be your *best* for God........
I would like to tell you though, that she DID come into the chat room a couple of years ago, and asked if any of us knew her, while in.....
She then apologized for her behavior, and then She earnestly asked for forgiveness from any whom she had hurt.
It appears that she may have made some changes since her departure.
Thanks for the feedback. PL was a pretty tough lady. And, yes looks like alot of us were the brunt of her unhappiness. Unfornately, I did not know it at that time, and I just thought I must be the crazy one.
I remember JL telling us how she was so close to VPW. That they had some sort of "bond". What was that all about? I always thought "If VP thinks she's the cat's meow, then I must really be messed-up!' Glad to hear she's come back to apologize. Too bad it didn't happen when I really needed it.
Now that you mention it, I remember comments being made while I was at Emporia about how close Pat and VP were... especially the night they told us he had died. If I remember correctly it was she who read the announcement and it was clear she was very upset.
Does anyone know the facts about why she felt so close to VP? Was he a father figure for her in some way? Or was she part of his stable of gals?
Just the facts, please, not looking for a lot of speculation on this.
One of the things I remember are stories about her spending oodles of times with VP when he would come to Emporia and I think at HQ. He'd call for her to go to the coach and she'd give him manicures and pedicures.
Now there's a visual!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YIKES!!!!!!!!
Perhaps we should be on another thread?? Maybe fingernails and toenails? Oh it's late, I think I better leave, I'm getting punchy! I just realized we are on the suicide thread. What happened???
Hello Everybody again. This is Wayne Bragg speaking. Sunesis, thank you for your beautiful letter. It affected my heart deeply. I have 20 acres of land in Northern California and come spring I will plant a tree in honor of Rochelle Wainberg, ?a blue spruce tree.? And a tree for any one who died in pursuit of the abundant life. It will be called ?Untimely Field?. I will talk more about this grove of trees later. But before I get to tired, this lucid thought just raged thru my head. It?s quite an unbelievable idea. But I know deep within I?ve been given the strength to bring it into concretion. So hold on to your hats folks. Mark sure pregnant women are seated. Old folks with pacemakers leave the room. For this stunning announcement, the unbelievable is about to be believed. I, Wayne Bragg have taken it upon myself to create, to construct, the ultimate memorial that any mere mortal could ever possibly be honored with. Whew, I get goose pimples just thinking about it. How does this sound folks? The Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille Memorial Outhouse. I can hear your oohs and aahs. I know you are all deeply thrilled. But what more fitting memorial can be given this man? None! This is the highest. I will construct it on my property. Anyone will be permitted to use it. People who are constipated will be healed in this outhouse. They will be healed by listening to Beautiful Ohio and reading Vic?s Bedside Manners. But this massive tribute is much more folks. Listen to this. How about the Howard Allen Bidet? Doesn?t that tickle you in the right place? And the let her rip tatter chip guy gets a urinal named after him too.
Hello Wayne, I hope that you are doing well? I am in touch by phone with your father from time to time.
VPW and LCM missed their true calling. It would have been better for everyone if they had opened up a little legal cat house in Nevada. They could of partaken of some of the merchandise, made money, and they wouldn't have caused such harm to the body of Christ as regards money, doctrine, sex and everything. I think even God would have respected this more than what they actually did and taught.
Suicide is another harm caused by the Way International in some individuals. The Way taught that any weakness made you a bad person, whether that was not believing, or physical or mental or emotional problems, and this was while their doctrines and practices was causing spiritual, emotional, mental and physical injuries, damages and evil to the believers. It is a disgrace as far as I am concerned. James French
The animal sex video is true. He showed it to the 7th Corps at Emporia in one of those late evening meetings, and as I recall, the college people were locked out of the room, since of course, you had to be spiritual to "handle it". I had no idea how much he must have used the video. He commented on how beautiful the women were, how the dog had more sense than the women as he didn't want any part of it, and how you could learn from the women by watching them. All the time drinking his Drambuie and smoking Kool shorts.
Very sick stuff.
yeah i was there too
--
i think there's another thread somewhere or maybe more than one about suicide in the way
it's very sad. my own dear friend left a note and said he knew he could never be the man he knew he should be....
I heard that Wierwille's supposed reason for showing Rin Tin Skin (?) to the Corps was he thought it would harden them to the perversions of the adversary. I think he was the only one who experienced any hardening, unless you include the dog.
--
By the way, let's never forget the principal role "Reverend" John Lynn played in Rochelle's last, lonely "relocation." He was responsible for inviting her to get out of Emporia (by sundown?). "Just following orders," right?
Man, he thought he was great - just one more Way International jerk who drank his own moonshine. By the tone of his remarks to Greasespot several months back, the ensuing years haven't changed him much.
I know... he's really, really changed. Well, once upon a time, he was really, really grrrrrreat, too. So I was told, and I did not trust my own instincts. I'm older and wiser. That doesn't make me bitter and angry. Just older and wiser.
Satori --- was this the quote you were referring to?
John Lynn Jul 29 2004, 05:23 PM
Hi Folks.
God bless you one and all.
My dear pal Jeff recently informed me that he has been posting some things I've written in the past, and that it has stirred up a bit of a hornet's nest. At his suggestion, I had a nice visit with "PawTucket" by phone, and told him I'd be glad to make myself available to some degree, though probably not to the extent that will satisfy some of you. Let me clarify myself.
My life is extremely full. I am hardpressed to keep up with everything I'm involved with. I do not have time to type answers to what I can already see, by reading the posts after Paw's blurb about me, will be a myriad of questions. For 17+ years we in CES (now Spirit and Truth Fellowship Int'l) have worked very hard to hold to the awesome truth we heard in TWI, delete the significant error, and move forward with the Lord Jesus. The hours and hours of teachings we have on tape (on a wide variety of subjects), and the thousands of pages we have written, have served to answer many of the questions ex-Way folks have had, as well as to heal many hearts ravaged by an ungodly system.
That being the case, I will not reinvent the wheel. Rather, I will shamelessly refer people to whatever we have that I think deals with their particular need. I will unapologetically encourage people to dig into the material on our websites http://www.TruthOrTradition.com .
Why
Because I know what has happened for countless saints who have done so.
I will probably not spend much time reading or answering a bunch of posts, but will give you my email address (jalces@aol.com) and home (317-849-5707) and office (317-255-6189) phone numbers in case you really want to communicate with me. I'm not much for communicating with those unwilling to identify themselves, although I have often done so when I felt it would serve them. I prefer the personal touch of the phone over email, so as to better experience one another's hearts.
My goal in taking a shot at coming onto G-spot is to do whatever I can for anyone who is interested in knowing, loving, and walking with The Man, the Lord Jesus Christ, whom I have come to know much better in the years since I was dispatched by TWI.
In the past 17+ years, I have asked forgiveness from plenty of ex-Way folks who said I hurt them, even if I didn't remember the incident, so I have no problem with you expressing personal offenses with me. I will not engage those who I sense want only to bitch about the past, but will do all I can for those who really want some help moving on and fulfilling their personal ministries.
I am far more aware than most about how TWI has hurt many dear saints. It may be that I have talked with more of them than has anyone else, because for years I have sought them out and made myself available to them.
Believe me, what I know from their personal testimonies is not easy to carry in my heart because it is so sickening. In my many years of roaming the country since 1987, sitting at scores of kitchen tables at midnight, I have seen the carnage firsthand and have done my best, flawed though it is, to help to heal people's hearts.
But the evils of TWI must be separated from the awesome truth of God's Word that was taught, and which saved the lives of countless people. Those who have not made that distinction have thrown out the baby with the bathwater, to their own spiritual detriment.
Tens of thousands of people had positive experiences with TWI and learned the Word like they could not have anywhere else. The Enemy saw clearly that VPW/TWI did have (1) a package of biblical truth unlike anything for centuries, and (2) a rapidly growing number of people committed to spreading it around the world, so he used the character flaws of many leaders (including me), combined with significant doctrinal error (which led to practical error), to tear apart what really did have the potential to take the Word over the world.
Thank God for His Word, which is still the unwavering standard for life and godliness.
Thank God for His abundant grace and mercy, for His forgiveness, and for His healing power.
And praise the Lord Jesus for all he did, is doing, and will do for each of us, and that we really can be like him if we are willing to face the sin that dwells within us and allow him to do the appropriate heart surgery.
I am also exceedingly thankful for the precious believers God has brought into my life, brethren who love me unconditionally, and who want to really live the truth of God's Word.
When I lived in St Marys in 1985, as a'regular believer' (a staff woman I was dating ,referred to me as being 'on the field' in all seriousness), they had an 'open cfs night in the osc building , with hundreds of staff and locals attending. They showed the 'rin tin skin' film that night, much to our amazement and befuddlement.I'd heard about it for years from corps friends, and was kinda glad for the opportunity-for about 5 seconds in, then I felt sick.
Suicide is another matter. I personally knew 3 people who went this route. In each case they were brother's of friends, and was only somewhat close to one, but each one was damaging to say the least. The way played varying degrees of roles in each case, so I'm not laying the blame there per say. In my entire life I can't think of any other suicide in my sphere of contact tho.
Yeah, that's the one, where he makes himself "available." I like the line at the end where he expresses gratitude for unconditional love. He's still capable of perceiving the "evils of TWI," yet his own slate is miraculously clean, cleansed by the... you know the routine. It's the typical self-serving garbage these people have served us up for decades. Still sounds convincing too, until you do a little parsing. Slick and sly as ever.
I want some real contrition from these people. He should renounce his ordination(s) as a fraud, get on his knees and beg our forgiveness for virtually taking a $*@! on the grace of God.
As part of the 12th corps I do not recall seeing the dog flick. I do however, remember hearing of it before in residence. Glad I missed it or forgot about it whichever the case may be. But the suicides... :(
That was an interesting post by JAL from 2004. A lot of words to say that CES is where it's at NOW for him.
Yet a few months ago, JAL "resigned" ---from his life's work--??? I think it's strange that he stood so strong for TWI, stood so strong for CES, and now he's not in any leadership capacity with either of them?
ODD.
Personally, I think he was "asked" to resign. :huh:
He's still capable of perceiving the "evils of TWI," yet his own slate is miraculously clean, cleansed by the... you know the routine. It's the typical self-serving garbage these people have served us up for decades. Still sounds convincing too, until you do a little parsing. Slick and sly as ever.
I want some real contrition from these people. He should renounce his ordination(s) as a fraud, get on his knees and beg our forgiveness for virtually taking a $*@! on the grace of God.
I'm not running to the defense of JAL, but....
How do you know he HASN'T done acts of "real contrition" privately?
Just what is it about renonucing his ordination(s) that defines contrition?
What will his begging our forgiveness actually accomplish?
If John called me personally or wrote me an email or paper letter begging my forgiveness for the way he treated me while attempting to throw me out of the 11th Corps.. what would that accomplish? What would it change? I felt he was wrong then, would his saying to me, "Howard, I was wrong, I beg you to forgive me," make him any more or less wrong?
Would it do much more than give me the emotional satisfaction of him lowering himself before me?
I don't think so.
Nor do I think his or anyone's announcement of;
"The ordination I operated under was bogus and made a mockery of God...."
would accomplish anything. No nothing at all that is substantitive.. Again. Nothing beyond giving one seeking some self satisfaction of his own just that.
I know John Lynn and I'm 100% certain that HE grieved Rochelle's loss of life as I did. I looked into his eyes when he was giving me the boot, I saw as much respect as he'd ever given me (which was substantial). He actually felt that my leaving the in residence WC at that time was what was best for me AND that I would, sans the rigors of the program, blossom and be able to return a few months later as one of the top guys in the 12th WC.
I simply felt he was wrong. I fought for my life and my place in the Corps.
Unfortunately my dear friend Rochelle didn't do that. She took her own life. Suicide, by definition is an extreme act of selfishness. They leave the living to suffer and punish us with their loss. For whatever their reason, the act accomplishes the same thing, it punishes us who loved them so.
John was caught up under TWI, as we all were. (It is quite possible that John Lynn sat at his desk and decided, finally to give the word that "I was gone" from in residence at the same time Rochelle was deciding finally, to kill herself and did it. The two events were simultaneous, she was 1,000 miles away but it was roughtly the same time.) Rochelle and others handled the pressures of it by taking their lives. Perhaps they thought, as I once did, when I sat on the floor of my bedroom with a loaded shotgun trying as Might to put it in my mouth and "end it all".... Perhaps they felt that their life was as ruined as I felt mine was; ruined by my own hand, at my own decisions... irretrievable. How can I live on? How can I continue even one more moment?
I can't.
One thing we all had in common is that we were all caught up in a web of deceit authored by the enemy of us all. My experience tells me that I was being decieved into believing that ending my life was a viable solution for the pressures of life I was feeling so heavily upon me at the time. I was saved by the thought that I had a daughter who needed my life THEN to help develop her own. To kill myself would have robbed HER of a father. I picked myself up off the floor that day because I could NOT do that to HER.
The one who seeks not but for to steal, kill and destroy won a few rounds. We all handled the pressures we were under in different ways. We were ALL under the "same" pressures. He killed a few of our beloved brothers and sisters. Destroyed a LOT of our dreams; stole even more from our lives. It is HE, the enemy, who should acknowledge the wrongs, apologise with acts of true contrition.
As we still, to this day FEEL the anger that demands, "I want to see some REAL contrition from these people." While we demand they renounce this and apologise for that, I beg you. ...
Have we truly moved on?
While we feel these things are we looking back, looking through a window through time at what was then or are we STILL "in" it, living it now? Are as free from as we think?
I think not.
John Lynn is as clean as the blood of Christ washed him over 2,000 years ago. IF we believe that we are ALL, and WHEN we believe that we are ALL, just as washed and as clean from our sin, ANY and ALL sin; as clean as clean can be, it is then and ONLY then that we CAN understand...
He's still capable of perceiving the "evils of TWI," yet his own slate is miraculously clean,
When we understand that we will surely say,
"His slate is as clean as MINE. His sins are no dirtier than mine."
IF and when we believe, truly believe what Jesus accomplished for us ALL, we will OFFER forgiveness to "these people" whether they ask for it on their knees or not.
Regardless of what we each did or didn't do, we are ALL just as clean as the other.
AND... We won't mock God with statements like this,
his own slate is miraculously clean, cleansed by the... you know the routine. It's the typical self-serving garbage
Miraculously? There IS NO OTHER WAY to clean one's slate, all of the "real contrition" and apology and renouncing in the world can't clean ANYTHING. As we bite and snap at each other now, whose side are we really representing?
I would suggest that if you cannot forgive THEM, you are not free.
I remember when I was on staff at Emporia and they showed it to the, I think it was 12th corps. 11th or 12th. That was the last time he ever showed it. They were very, very vocal in their disgust, berated JAL, and no explanation the leadership gave did any good. The corps weren't buying it. They were very angry, many of them sickened.
I'm thinking that was us, the 11th. We were loud and vocal about a LOT of stuff. I remember being sickended by it and wondering how SHOWING us stuff like that somehow accomplished more than telling us about it. I think we saw it during the first part of the year during the advanced class. They showed us "the whole gamut of films, the spychic surgery, the oriental kid who made images on poloroid film w/his mind by saying "Pow!"
We made a lot of noise abou tit, asked shapr stining questions, complained, the whole nine yards. Maybe the 12th complained too?
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Sunesis
Prochaine, don't feel bad, I was on staff at Emporia and PL hated just about everyone - you were not alone. We had our run in the first week she arrived there. My brother, 12th corps, summed it up best when he said, she was one of the most neurotic people he'd ever worked with.
PL was always on the lookout for homos, male and female. But, I also knew she was miserable being at Emporia, did not want to be a corps coordinator, was following John. She just was truly unhappy and took it out on people. She made up some terrible things about me and told DM a bunch of bull. Unfortunately, DM believed it, but that's another story. But Pat made up stuff about a lot of people - outrageous stuff, plus accused innocent kids of devil possesion, etc. - I was amazed when someone on my job crew would come back in tears telling me about a meeting with PL that was so off the wall, so I really wasn't too surprised to hear the ignorant, made up stuff she said about me. I even told DM, one day you will realize this lady is off her rocker.
To keep her life happy, PL would also pick a studly young male from the corps and have a "relationship" with him. I always wondered how she could be having her affair right under JAL's nose, and JAL seemed to care less - just oblivious. It was then I realized they must have an open marriage. PL basically had only a couple of people she felt comfortable hanging out with - and they too were pieces of work.
PL was just never really fulfilled, was frustrated and couldn't wait to leave Emporia. I do hope she is happy now though. I still think she was a good person who was just terribly angry and unhappy and there was no where for her to go - she was truly trapped. Now that I am older, it is pretty obvious what she was going through. I noted her favorite song was "Don't Fence Me In." Very appropriate.
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rascal
Not that I am am defending ANYTHING pl did to you folks, I am so sorry that you had to endure that crap from someone whom was supposed to be helping you to be your *best* for God........
I would like to tell you though, that she DID come into the chat room a couple of years ago, and asked if any of us knew her, while in.....
She then apologized for her behavior, and then She earnestly asked for forgiveness from any whom she had hurt.
It appears that she may have made some changes since her departure.
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A la prochaine
Thanks for the feedback. PL was a pretty tough lady. And, yes looks like alot of us were the brunt of her unhappiness. Unfornately, I did not know it at that time, and I just thought I must be the crazy one.
I remember JL telling us how she was so close to VPW. That they had some sort of "bond". What was that all about? I always thought "If VP thinks she's the cat's meow, then I must really be messed-up!' Glad to hear she's come back to apologize. Too bad it didn't happen when I really needed it.
'til the next time...
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TheHighWay
A La Pro...
Now that you mention it, I remember comments being made while I was at Emporia about how close Pat and VP were... especially the night they told us he had died. If I remember correctly it was she who read the announcement and it was clear she was very upset.
Does anyone know the facts about why she felt so close to VP? Was he a father figure for her in some way? Or was she part of his stable of gals?
Just the facts, please, not looking for a lot of speculation on this.
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A la prochaine
One of the things I remember are stories about her spending oodles of times with VP when he would come to Emporia and I think at HQ. He'd call for her to go to the coach and she'd give him manicures and pedicures.
Now there's a visual!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YIKES!!!!!!!!
Perhaps we should be on another thread?? Maybe fingernails and toenails? Oh it's late, I think I better leave, I'm getting punchy! I just realized we are on the suicide thread. What happened???
'til the next time...
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TheHighWay
Good point A-L-P...
If anyone has any comments regarding the Pat Lynn / VP thing, I'm starting a separate thread...
We now rejoin our regularly scheduled thread, already in progress. Back to:
Suicide in the Way
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Mark Sanguinetti
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Wayne Bragg
Hello Everybody again. This is Wayne Bragg speaking. Sunesis, thank you for your beautiful letter. It affected my heart deeply. I have 20 acres of land in Northern California and come spring I will plant a tree in honor of Rochelle Wainberg, ?a blue spruce tree.? And a tree for any one who died in pursuit of the abundant life. It will be called ?Untimely Field?. I will talk more about this grove of trees later. But before I get to tired, this lucid thought just raged thru my head. It?s quite an unbelievable idea. But I know deep within I?ve been given the strength to bring it into concretion. So hold on to your hats folks. Mark sure pregnant women are seated. Old folks with pacemakers leave the room. For this stunning announcement, the unbelievable is about to be believed. I, Wayne Bragg have taken it upon myself to create, to construct, the ultimate memorial that any mere mortal could ever possibly be honored with. Whew, I get goose pimples just thinking about it. How does this sound folks? The Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille Memorial Outhouse. I can hear your oohs and aahs. I know you are all deeply thrilled. But what more fitting memorial can be given this man? None! This is the highest. I will construct it on my property. Anyone will be permitted to use it. People who are constipated will be healed in this outhouse. They will be healed by listening to Beautiful Ohio and reading Vic?s Bedside Manners. But this massive tribute is much more folks. Listen to this. How about the Howard Allen Bidet? Doesn?t that tickle you in the right place? And the let her rip tatter chip guy gets a urinal named after him too.
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Steve!
All right! the Loy Loo! how perfect.
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TheHighWay
The loy loo.... hahahahahahaha...
Oh my, Steve, you don't know how badly I needed to laugh this evening. Thanks so much!!
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grasshopper
Craig's Crapper?
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itchley
id heard of this film being shown at the end of the cfs.
i never did see it .
im glad i didnt.
i hold animals more highly valuable than many people i know and many i do not personally know.
i would rather put to sleep many people and save the animals that are put to sleep annually throughout the world.
man can take any beautiful thing and pervert it to his own pleasure.
this is why i distance myself from most people.
this way i have some privacy and am not subjected to more perversion like this weirwille fellow and his buddies.
marywonni
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James French
Hello Wayne, I hope that you are doing well? I am in touch by phone with your father from time to time.
VPW and LCM missed their true calling. It would have been better for everyone if they had opened up a little legal cat house in Nevada. They could of partaken of some of the merchandise, made money, and they wouldn't have caused such harm to the body of Christ as regards money, doctrine, sex and everything. I think even God would have respected this more than what they actually did and taught.
Suicide is another harm caused by the Way International in some individuals. The Way taught that any weakness made you a bad person, whether that was not believing, or physical or mental or emotional problems, and this was while their doctrines and practices was causing spiritual, emotional, mental and physical injuries, damages and evil to the believers. It is a disgrace as far as I am concerned. James French
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Belle
This needs to come back to the top.
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excathedra
--
i think there's another thread somewhere or maybe more than one about suicide in the way
it's very sad. my own dear friend left a note and said he knew he could never be the man he knew he should be....
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satori001
I heard that Wierwille's supposed reason for showing Rin Tin Skin (?) to the Corps was he thought it would harden them to the perversions of the adversary. I think he was the only one who experienced any hardening, unless you include the dog.
--
By the way, let's never forget the principal role "Reverend" John Lynn played in Rochelle's last, lonely "relocation." He was responsible for inviting her to get out of Emporia (by sundown?). "Just following orders," right?
Man, he thought he was great - just one more Way International jerk who drank his own moonshine. By the tone of his remarks to Greasespot several months back, the ensuing years haven't changed him much.
I know... he's really, really changed. Well, once upon a time, he was really, really grrrrrreat, too. So I was told, and I did not trust my own instincts. I'm older and wiser. That doesn't make me bitter and angry. Just older and wiser.
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dmiller
Satori --- was this the quote you were referring to?
I thought so!
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hiway29
When I lived in St Marys in 1985, as a'regular believer' (a staff woman I was dating ,referred to me as being 'on the field' in all seriousness), they had an 'open cfs night in the osc building , with hundreds of staff and locals attending. They showed the 'rin tin skin' film that night, much to our amazement and befuddlement.I'd heard about it for years from corps friends, and was kinda glad for the opportunity-for about 5 seconds in, then I felt sick.
Suicide is another matter. I personally knew 3 people who went this route. In each case they were brother's of friends, and was only somewhat close to one, but each one was damaging to say the least. The way played varying degrees of roles in each case, so I'm not laying the blame there per say. In my entire life I can't think of any other suicide in my sphere of contact tho.
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satori001
dmiller,
Yeah, that's the one, where he makes himself "available." I like the line at the end where he expresses gratitude for unconditional love. He's still capable of perceiving the "evils of TWI," yet his own slate is miraculously clean, cleansed by the... you know the routine. It's the typical self-serving garbage these people have served us up for decades. Still sounds convincing too, until you do a little parsing. Slick and sly as ever.
I want some real contrition from these people. He should renounce his ordination(s) as a fraud, get on his knees and beg our forgiveness for virtually taking a $*@! on the grace of God.
But that's just my humble opinion.
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BackForty
As part of the 12th corps I do not recall seeing the dog flick. I do however, remember hearing of it before in residence. Glad I missed it or forgot about it whichever the case may be. But the suicides... :(
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Rejoice
That was an interesting post by JAL from 2004. A lot of words to say that CES is where it's at NOW for him.
Yet a few months ago, JAL "resigned" ---from his life's work--??? I think it's strange that he stood so strong for TWI, stood so strong for CES, and now he's not in any leadership capacity with either of them?
ODD.
Personally, I think he was "asked" to resign. :huh:
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HCW
How do you know he HASN'T done acts of "real contrition" privately?
Just what is it about renonucing his ordination(s) that defines contrition?
What will his begging our forgiveness actually accomplish?
If John called me personally or wrote me an email or paper letter begging my forgiveness for the way he treated me while attempting to throw me out of the 11th Corps.. what would that accomplish? What would it change? I felt he was wrong then, would his saying to me, "Howard, I was wrong, I beg you to forgive me," make him any more or less wrong?
Would it do much more than give me the emotional satisfaction of him lowering himself before me?
I don't think so.
Nor do I think his or anyone's announcement of;
"The ordination I operated under was bogus and made a mockery of God...."
would accomplish anything. No nothing at all that is substantitive.. Again. Nothing beyond giving one seeking some self satisfaction of his own just that.
I know John Lynn and I'm 100% certain that HE grieved Rochelle's loss of life as I did. I looked into his eyes when he was giving me the boot, I saw as much respect as he'd ever given me (which was substantial). He actually felt that my leaving the in residence WC at that time was what was best for me AND that I would, sans the rigors of the program, blossom and be able to return a few months later as one of the top guys in the 12th WC.
I simply felt he was wrong. I fought for my life and my place in the Corps.
Unfortunately my dear friend Rochelle didn't do that. She took her own life. Suicide, by definition is an extreme act of selfishness. They leave the living to suffer and punish us with their loss. For whatever their reason, the act accomplishes the same thing, it punishes us who loved them so.
John was caught up under TWI, as we all were. (It is quite possible that John Lynn sat at his desk and decided, finally to give the word that "I was gone" from in residence at the same time Rochelle was deciding finally, to kill herself and did it. The two events were simultaneous, she was 1,000 miles away but it was roughtly the same time.) Rochelle and others handled the pressures of it by taking their lives. Perhaps they thought, as I once did, when I sat on the floor of my bedroom with a loaded shotgun trying as Might to put it in my mouth and "end it all".... Perhaps they felt that their life was as ruined as I felt mine was; ruined by my own hand, at my own decisions... irretrievable. How can I live on? How can I continue even one more moment?
I can't.
One thing we all had in common is that we were all caught up in a web of deceit authored by the enemy of us all. My experience tells me that I was being decieved into believing that ending my life was a viable solution for the pressures of life I was feeling so heavily upon me at the time. I was saved by the thought that I had a daughter who needed my life THEN to help develop her own. To kill myself would have robbed HER of a father. I picked myself up off the floor that day because I could NOT do that to HER.
The one who seeks not but for to steal, kill and destroy won a few rounds. We all handled the pressures we were under in different ways. We were ALL under the "same" pressures. He killed a few of our beloved brothers and sisters. Destroyed a LOT of our dreams; stole even more from our lives. It is HE, the enemy, who should acknowledge the wrongs, apologise with acts of true contrition.
As we still, to this day FEEL the anger that demands, "I want to see some REAL contrition from these people." While we demand they renounce this and apologise for that, I beg you. ...
Have we truly moved on?
While we feel these things are we looking back, looking through a window through time at what was then or are we STILL "in" it, living it now? Are as free from as we think?
I think not.
John Lynn is as clean as the blood of Christ washed him over 2,000 years ago. IF we believe that we are ALL, and WHEN we believe that we are ALL, just as washed and as clean from our sin, ANY and ALL sin; as clean as clean can be, it is then and ONLY then that we CAN understand...
When we understand that we will surely say,
"His slate is as clean as MINE. His sins are no dirtier than mine."
IF and when we believe, truly believe what Jesus accomplished for us ALL, we will OFFER forgiveness to "these people" whether they ask for it on their knees or not.
Regardless of what we each did or didn't do, we are ALL just as clean as the other.
AND... We won't mock God with statements like this,
Miraculously? There IS NO OTHER WAY to clean one's slate, all of the "real contrition" and apology and renouncing in the world can't clean ANYTHING. As we bite and snap at each other now, whose side are we really representing?
I would suggest that if you cannot forgive THEM, you are not free.
I speak unto you a more excellent way.
Merry Christmas everbody!
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HCW
About the doggie video...
I'm thinking that was us, the 11th. We were loud and vocal about a LOT of stuff. I remember being sickended by it and wondering how SHOWING us stuff like that somehow accomplished more than telling us about it. I think we saw it during the first part of the year during the advanced class. They showed us "the whole gamut of films, the spychic surgery, the oriental kid who made images on poloroid film w/his mind by saying "Pow!"
We made a lot of noise abou tit, asked shapr stining questions, complained, the whole nine yards. Maybe the 12th complained too?
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justloafing
We saw it in the 15th while in res.
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