I was at shelter island that summer. There were 4 weeks of camp as I recall. And yes the doggie show was played there. A lot of the audience was in their teens, living away from home that summer. There would be lawsuits like crazy if that happened today.
Sunesis,
Thanks for your post about Rochelle. I knew her but not well.
I'm 48 years old. In all my years of life, I know more people who committed suicide in the way than I know who did outside the way. Most were on staff or corps or in leadership positions.
I can't say if the way caused all those deaths, or just attracted unstable individuals and then exacerbated their illness. Then they had the audacity to cover up what actually happened. It was almost never mentioned in public. What a horrible organization.
We were spared the stupid movie at IC. I was in rez there 80,81 82-83.
I don't remember the lovely lady Rochelle being at IC but there were lots of dental folks there that were not a part of the corpse training.
I did know it was a suicide. I always thought Al was so brave taking the info like he did.
I was also in WI when another suicide took place. It was unbelievable to me more than the suicide that twi would "blame the victim" and say something like, "a complication with meds" caused the suicide (a mother, wife, a leader).
Knowing about more suicides from those, "living the more abundant life" is quite scary. I wonder how many others were swept under the carpet.
Must have been "their believing".....
Suz
PS Sam and Billie Graham were also in that truck that got in an accident. Billie was in a cast for a broken leg for months. (they are still in today )
Also on that same lead "experience" I remember a woman who almost lost her eye because of a limb that poked it. I don't know how people continued to put up with the lead BS and not sue! We got reproved when we got home for those type accidents!!!
HOW LONG MUST THIS GO ON???
GET OUT NOW BEFORE TWI FINDS YET ANOTHER LEAD TYPE EXPERIENCE
The doggie show was played at Emporia during 84-85 when the 15th & 13th corps were in-rez. I was there. Vic was on campus and spent a week or so reading through the book Bedside Manners to the corps. Us college folks only got invited to the very last session, which (oh, joy) included that disgusting video.
TheHighWay:
Could you do me a favor and and try to remember what month it was shown. Obviously it was between September 84 and May 85, but it would be very helpful to me to know more specific details about this particular showing.
Email is available also. TheEnd3_3@yahoo.com theend3_3@yahoo.com (my hotmail is too full of spam to use anymore)
Where was it? I've pulled drunks out of the gutter and taken them home. I've driven a couple of complete strangers to the hospital. I'm no saint and I didn't do it for rewards in heaven. I did it because it's what decent human beings do.
How is it that TWI leadership can ignore such basic principles of living and humanity and treat "family" so badly that they are moved to take their own life?
The inresident Corps were also treated to his ultra-X homemade sex movie. But there was another movie shown; one with group sex.
Two men and two women come into the room, strip and have at it on a mattress on the floor. VPW made comment that one male participants endowment was not usual...something to that effect.
I remember walking away thinking his point in showing that one was that possessed men became ESPECIALLY endowed (haha...bet some guys ran over to the Church of Satan right after leaving TWI).
As for the doggie film, he made some comment that it was to prepare the Corps because these kinds of things went on in the world. He asked, either before or after this comment, how many people had covered their eyes, how many people got sick to their stomachs, etc.
He also said the lesbians orgasm was not real, etc., etc. He definitely spiritualized that.
I can frankly think of more horrifying things the devil causes people to do than bestiality. I think Necromancy would have been more disgusting than the doggie, if shocking the Corps was his purpose.
Nah...I think these types of things turned him on.
[This message was edited by justwannabeme on October 18, 2002 at 20:09.]
I remember during the showing of the dog flick,there was a scene where the dog was licking his own privates.A corpse buddie whispered to me "don't you wish you could do that?" I said "I don't know,the dog would probably bite my ear off".
geeze, I don't know what to say here about this thread.
I was in the corps, but somehow never witnessed the infamous video.
One of my best girlfriends was injured in that wreck at LEAD. I spent alot of time with her while she was recuperating. She was very worried about Rochelle, because, according to her, she had suffered a severe head injury in the accident. My girlfriend felt like Rochelle didn't get adequate medical care after it happened. And when Rochelle died, she felt partially responsible, because she knew Rochelle was never the same afterwards.
I didn't mean to insinuate that there was not such a video ... I had heard about it for many years before I was in the Corps. I guess Al P. and I and about 50 others were "enjoying" the viciousness of TJ at Gunnison while Dr. Wierwille was showing "Animal Farm" at Emporia.
You are correct we did see that sometime between January and May of 1985. It was my last year in residence w/13th corps.
Toadfriend, you were definitely at Gunnison. I remember sitting thru the entire class with my "cowboy pal" that I hung out with (you know the one...he is totally "able.") Anyway, he was ....ed beyond belief and I was just sure that someone had made a terrible mistake and showed us the film without previewing it. LOL, even then, I was a ridiculously naive, company line chick. I can't believe I fell for that stuff.
I was living in St Marys, of all places, in '85, not on staff or corps (long story), when they had an open 'grad night' for all the people in the area, in the OSC big room.
I was quite surprised when they pulled out the animal tape to show to 'the masses'. Varying degrees of revulsion and uncomfortableness resulted.
I have no recollection of the reasons put forth for showing it. The cynical side of me thinks that someone just enjoyed seeing the reactions it produced.
That's disgusting!!! Yuck!!!!!! Imagine if you had brought your son or daughter to that who had just graduated from PFAL (12 years old was the minimum age - remember) and surprise - guess what's on the roster for tonight grads?????
I am a parent of 3 children - I would of been disgusted to have my 16 year old see that!!!!!
In searching the deepest recesses of my fast fading memory, I believe it was an open 'Christian Family and Sex' evening, which may have have kept out the 12 year olds, but was still for all the grads in the area.
All other details are as I remember it tho.Still not sure what seeing the doggy tape had to do with CF&S.
I didn't know VP had resumed showing the doggie video. I know they did stop for awhile after the corps got so upset.
What was the "homemade" video he showed? I don't think he ever showed us that one.
I recall thinking at the time VP was showing it because he enjoyed it. I think if you go to a porn shop you would go to what turns you on. I don't think those videos were coincidence. VP had a side I think most of us never saw.
I didn't look at this thread earlier for certain reasons, but the original post got me because Al was my first corps roomie...that plus after TWI I married into a Russian family.
I don't know why they were showing this little porno clip at hq but I know at Emporia it was shown as a part of the infamous Bedside Manners Class. It seems that vpw had recently come across this little paperback. He came to Emporia and the way corps office actually GAVE US all the book (as opposed to us having to buy it out of our monthly stipend.) Vpw sat up in front of us in top floor Wierwille and read this book out loud to us with some help from the corps coordinators (I think.)
Our little viewing of the doggie and pony show wasn't part of cf&s it was part of Bedside Manners and talk about weird! Right after that Pat Lynn got on the "There are a bunch of lesbians in the 15th corps" bandwagon and started heaving gals out of the corps...of course that is AFTER she had Paula Smith the lesbian tennis player come to Emporia to confer with her. Gawd .. what a sick place!
Dr. Wierwille practiced a kind of voyeurism, by observing the reactions of young people deliberately subjected to viewing hard-core porn while seated close together in a co-ed environment. Are there any psychologists out there who know the clinical or legal word for this kind of manipulation?
"You don't really live until you find something worth dying for." - Jesus
[This message was edited by QamiQazi on October 22, 2002 at 13:32.]
You made me think of something when you said "Pat Lynn and her lesbo lynchings" (I paraphrased you - not a true quote there sorry!). Anyhow, when I was in the 12th Corps she did the same thing but it was homo(men)lynching. She had everyone on a suspicion band-wagon. Everyone you ever thought of being even remotely effeminate you were to confront and weed them out.
I knew of someone in the corps who was suspected and who a while later left the WC and committed suicide. He was a dear friend of mine. He made my time there tolerable. Alot of help his accusers were!
That Pat Lynn - I remember her telling us about when she went out during 'ho-ho relo' (stupid!!!)that year and how she was shopping and was tempted to steal something from the store she was in. (That was her past - she used to be a clepto.) And at this point she had probably been "in the word for over 20 years'. The renewed mind? Not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!- I had very little (if any) respect for that woman- but that's for another thread.
They have been divorced for years. John was a founder of CES, now in a more advisory capacity. Pat is living in VA horse country and apparently has moved on with her life.
Thank God we are all allowed a second chance at finding contentment.
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George Aar
John,
re:"Where did he get this video and under what circumstances?"
I read somewhere (on GS?) that VP and Howard bought the tape at some underground bookstore in Berkeley in the early '70s. IIRC
geo.
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George Aar
Yeah, they musta been doing "research" there, huh?
Why else would a MOG go to a porn shop?
(whata creep!)
geo.
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My3Cents
Bookworm, Hope & Oldie,
I was at shelter island that summer. There were 4 weeks of camp as I recall. And yes the doggie show was played there. A lot of the audience was in their teens, living away from home that summer. There would be lawsuits like crazy if that happened today.
Sunesis,
Thanks for your post about Rochelle. I knew her but not well.
I'm 48 years old. In all my years of life, I know more people who committed suicide in the way than I know who did outside the way. Most were on staff or corps or in leadership positions.
I can't say if the way caused all those deaths, or just attracted unstable individuals and then exacerbated their illness. Then they had the audacity to cover up what actually happened. It was almost never mentioned in public. What a horrible organization.
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suz
We were spared the stupid movie at IC. I was in rez there 80,81 82-83.
I don't remember the lovely lady Rochelle being at IC but there were lots of dental folks there that were not a part of the corpse training.
I did know it was a suicide. I always thought Al was so brave taking the info like he did.
I was also in WI when another suicide took place. It was unbelievable to me more than the suicide that twi would "blame the victim" and say something like, "a complication with meds" caused the suicide (a mother, wife, a leader).
Knowing about more suicides from those, "living the more abundant life" is quite scary. I wonder how many others were swept under the carpet.
Must have been "their believing".....
Suz
PS Sam and Billie Graham were also in that truck that got in an accident. Billie was in a cast for a broken leg for months. (they are still in today )
Also on that same lead "experience" I remember a woman who almost lost her eye because of a limb that poked it. I don't know how people continued to put up with the lead BS and not sue! We got reproved when we got home for those type accidents!!!
HOW LONG MUST THIS GO ON???
GET OUT NOW BEFORE TWI FINDS YET ANOTHER LEAD TYPE EXPERIENCE
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TheEnd
TheHighWay:
Could you do me a favor and and try to remember what month it was shown. Obviously it was between September 84 and May 85, but it would be very helpful to me to know more specific details about this particular showing.
Email is available also. TheEnd3_3@yahoo.com theend3_3@yahoo.com (my hotmail is too full of spam to use anymore)
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Jim
Where was it? I've pulled drunks out of the gutter and taken them home. I've driven a couple of complete strangers to the hospital. I'm no saint and I didn't do it for rewards in heaven. I did it because it's what decent human beings do.
How is it that TWI leadership can ignore such basic principles of living and humanity and treat "family" so badly that they are moved to take their own life?
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justwannabeme
The inresident Corps were also treated to his ultra-X homemade sex movie. But there was another movie shown; one with group sex.
Two men and two women come into the room, strip and have at it on a mattress on the floor. VPW made comment that one male participants endowment was not usual...something to that effect.
I remember walking away thinking his point in showing that one was that possessed men became ESPECIALLY endowed (haha...bet some guys ran over to the Church of Satan right after leaving TWI).
As for the doggie film, he made some comment that it was to prepare the Corps because these kinds of things went on in the world. He asked, either before or after this comment, how many people had covered their eyes, how many people got sick to their stomachs, etc.
He also said the lesbians orgasm was not real, etc., etc. He definitely spiritualized that.
I can frankly think of more horrifying things the devil causes people to do than bestiality. I think Necromancy would have been more disgusting than the doggie, if shocking the Corps was his purpose.
Nah...I think these types of things turned him on.
[This message was edited by justwannabeme on October 18, 2002 at 20:09.]
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simonzelotes
I remember during the showing of the dog flick,there was a scene where the dog was licking his own privates.A corpse buddie whispered to me "don't you wish you could do that?" I said "I don't know,the dog would probably bite my ear off".
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ex10
geeze, I don't know what to say here about this thread.
I was in the corps, but somehow never witnessed the infamous video.
One of my best girlfriends was injured in that wreck at LEAD. I spent alot of time with her while she was recuperating. She was very worried about Rochelle, because, according to her, she had suffered a severe head injury in the accident. My girlfriend felt like Rochelle didn't get adequate medical care after it happened. And when Rochelle died, she felt partially responsible, because she knew Rochelle was never the same afterwards.
How very sad.
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Steve!
JustWanna - I think you mean "necrophilia". Or maybe you mean necromancy - that's working witchcraft via the dead.
I would call you a sadistic, equestrian necrophiliac, but wouldn't that be beating a dead horse?
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ToadFriend
I didn't mean to insinuate that there was not such a video ... I had heard about it for many years before I was in the Corps. I guess Al P. and I and about 50 others were "enjoying" the viciousness of TJ at Gunnison while Dr. Wierwille was showing "Animal Farm" at Emporia.
TF
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Radar OReilly
The Highway,
You are correct we did see that sometime between January and May of 1985. It was my last year in residence w/13th corps.
Toadfriend, you were definitely at Gunnison. I remember sitting thru the entire class with my "cowboy pal" that I hung out with (you know the one...he is totally "able.") Anyway, he was ....ed beyond belief and I was just sure that someone had made a terrible mistake and showed us the film without previewing it. LOL, even then, I was a ridiculously naive, company line chick. I can't believe I fell for that stuff.
ROR
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WordWolf
That's very interesting.
In the main body of the taped CF & S class,
vpw refers to that very video, & a scene with 2
women & a dog. The only thing I really remember
taking away of value about that description-
which lasted less than a minute (unless I'm
supressing how long it lasted) was vpw saying
the dog had more sense than the women because
one was pushing him towards the other, & the dog
didn't seem interested.
One lingering question about that class, though.
Vpw, while giving the impression that it's NOT a
good idea, said that every couple, at some point,
would probably try a certain act. It's one that
has been called a few things at different times.
Anyway, I've never been inspired to try it, &
have no intentions to ever try it out. My main
reaction being eeeeeeeewwwww. I've never checked
the statistics on it, but I'm pretty sure they're
below 75%. I'm wondering why he thought just
about EVERYBODY would try it. That question
kind-of nagged at me some time later. I just
figured it was one more thing I'd be in the
minority about.
---------
Re: the main topic of this discussion, it's just
one more way they treated people as disposable.
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Kit Sober
1. Does anyone have a copy of the other suicide thread?
That thread showed that treating people like used stuff to be discarded was a prevailing attitude.
People are so precious.
I am thankful for everyone that gets out of that place!
2. How is Al doing now?
Hopefully,
Kit Sober
The course of the bubonic plague was turned by the concept of clean.
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Hope R.
Kit -
On the Main Cafe site is the editorial article "Driven to Suicide". It's not the entire thread, but it's got a few responses.
Click here to see it.
Folks, don't forget that the main Grease Spot Cafe site is filled with information not found on these forums...
Hope R. color>size>face>
"Don't let the past remind us of what we are not now" - Stephen Stills
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hiway29
I was living in St Marys, of all places, in '85, not on staff or corps (long story), when they had an open 'grad night' for all the people in the area, in the OSC big room.
I was quite surprised when they pulled out the animal tape to show to 'the masses'. Varying degrees of revulsion and uncomfortableness resulted.
I have no recollection of the reasons put forth for showing it. The cynical side of me thinks that someone just enjoyed seeing the reactions it produced.
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A la prochaine
That's disgusting!!! Yuck!!!!!! Imagine if you had brought your son or daughter to that who had just graduated from PFAL (12 years old was the minimum age - remember) and surprise - guess what's on the roster for tonight grads?????
I am a parent of 3 children - I would of been disgusted to have my 16 year old see that!!!!!
Signed: Disgusted
'til the next time...
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hiway29
In searching the deepest recesses of my fast fading memory, I believe it was an open 'Christian Family and Sex' evening, which may have have kept out the 12 year olds, but was still for all the grads in the area.
All other details are as I remember it tho.Still not sure what seeing the doggy tape had to do with CF&S.
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Sunesis
I didn't know VP had resumed showing the doggie video. I know they did stop for awhile after the corps got so upset.
What was the "homemade" video he showed? I don't think he ever showed us that one.
I recall thinking at the time VP was showing it because he enjoyed it. I think if you go to a porn shop you would go to what turns you on. I don't think those videos were coincidence. VP had a side I think most of us never saw.
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Lifted Up
I didn't look at this thread earlier for certain reasons, but the original post got me because Al was my first corps roomie...that plus after TWI I married into a Russian family.
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Radar OReilly
I don't know why they were showing this little porno clip at hq but I know at Emporia it was shown as a part of the infamous Bedside Manners Class. It seems that vpw had recently come across this little paperback. He came to Emporia and the way corps office actually GAVE US all the book (as opposed to us having to buy it out of our monthly stipend.) Vpw sat up in front of us in top floor Wierwille and read this book out loud to us with some help from the corps coordinators (I think.)
Our little viewing of the doggie and pony show wasn't part of cf&s it was part of Bedside Manners and talk about weird! Right after that Pat Lynn got on the "There are a bunch of lesbians in the 15th corps" bandwagon and started heaving gals out of the corps...of course that is AFTER she had Paula Smith the lesbian tennis player come to Emporia to confer with her. Gawd .. what a sick place!
Radar
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QamiQazi
Dr. Wierwille practiced a kind of voyeurism, by observing the reactions of young people deliberately subjected to viewing hard-core porn while seated close together in a co-ed environment. Are there any psychologists out there who know the clinical or legal word for this kind of manipulation?
"You don't really live until you find something worth dying for." - Jesus
[This message was edited by QamiQazi on October 22, 2002 at 13:32.]
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A la prochaine
Love your posts Radar.
You made me think of something when you said "Pat Lynn and her lesbo lynchings" (I paraphrased you - not a true quote there sorry!). Anyhow, when I was in the 12th Corps she did the same thing but it was homo(men)lynching. She had everyone on a suspicion band-wagon. Everyone you ever thought of being even remotely effeminate you were to confront and weed them out.
I knew of someone in the corps who was suspected and who a while later left the WC and committed suicide. He was a dear friend of mine. He made my time there tolerable. Alot of help his accusers were!
That Pat Lynn - I remember her telling us about when she went out during 'ho-ho relo' (stupid!!!)that year and how she was shopping and was tempted to steal something from the store she was in. (That was her past - she used to be a clepto.) And at this point she had probably been "in the word for over 20 years'. The renewed mind? Not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!- I had very little (if any) respect for that woman- but that's for another thread.
Are her and John still together? Anyone know?
'til the next time...
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Radar OReilly
Dear ALP!
They have been divorced for years. John was a founder of CES, now in a more advisory capacity. Pat is living in VA horse country and apparently has moved on with her life.
Thank God we are all allowed a second chance at finding contentment.
Radar
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