If you are arguing it is with yourself not me. I have said from the beginning we disagree. I made the mistake of thinking you had an interest in hearing my opinion since your heart is filled with such goodness and all you know.
As I read your comments regarding these girls and your subsequent responses to different posters here I think perhaps we should look at what is really being defined by these girls actions.
You assert that the motivations of these girls are religious based, that may well be true but I challenge you to find the facts to support this in the details that have been posted here. I don’t think anyone has written this about these girls in any other media either. I heard one of the girls interviewed and she never once mentioned her faith or religion.
You’ve continued to make comments about religion despite your assertions that you aren’t interested in discussing religion. I think perhaps what’s really being displayed here isn’t religion but altruism. Perhaps the motivation for what they did came from a strong sense of religion or faith but the effect was something altruistic.
Websters defines Altruism as:
1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others
2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjective
As you say, only you (and I would add God) know whether you have anything good in your heart, this would probably include any manner of altruism. Indeed I’m sure you could live your whole life doing nothing bad, but also doing nothing altruistic. Many people live this way. If you have children I would venture to say you don’t fall into this category.
You may not agree with religion but you cannot deny altruism or the results of it. If you live in the United States you have benefited from the altruism of others. The military has many examples of men and women who selflessly laid down their own lives for the benefit of others, no one ever questions their religious intent when this happens.
I realize these girls didn’t do anything nearly so heroic so the example of what they did should be viewed in a different light. I can look at what they did and see altruism without knowing their motivations.
Their religion on the other hand is only revealed when they choose to say this is why they did what they did. Denying goodness (or in this definition altruism) when viewed in this light is as ignorant as denying the world is round after seeing a globe. What’s there is there and saying it doesn’t exist doesn’t change the proof to the contrary. Even if my motives are selfish the benefit to someone else can still be seen and experienced by the recipient.
Impugning religion in this context is as ignorant as saying the sacrifice of a soldier is of none effect because the military has some bad elements to it. You’re making an apples to oranges comparison.
Did anyone do anything good while they were involved with the way? Of course, but we can only see this when we measure these actions against what’s altruistic and not against what’s religious.
Of the three people people in this story, the 2 teens and the 49 year old woman who sued, who was being altruistic as Webster's defines altruism?
You used a lot of words and definition but you failed to say anything.
I think what the solders are doing democratizing the middle east is just plain wrong no matter how many new power plants they build or schools they open. The war is unjustified therefore the people who fight in it are also unjustified and murderers when they kill someone.
You said, quote “Did anyone do anything good while they were involved with the way?
Then you answered yourself with, “Of course.” That made me dizzy dizzydog, of course I would disagree with you since good is a subjective opinion.
God is the only one who can objectively say if what you did in and for the Way was “GOOD” or not. I believe a lot of “GOOD” people are going to find out how all the things they do which they think are beneficial and “GOOD” are in actuality very detrimental. You may be just such an individual.
you are the one who is saying NOTHING, "peahead"...we are not talking war here...go to Political forum if you are going to bring that .... up... get a freaking clue...
Peahead, I think you are reading way too much into this....dizzy dog said a soldier laying down his life...he said nothing about war in the middle east.
There has been nothing said about these girls baking cookies because of a religous reason.
I guess thats why I go by vickles and you go by peahead....
Look Peahead, Jaysus Frigging Key Riste, you're as bad as me. We may be related.
quote:
Religion is the problem, both the girls and the people that sued them were wrong. The difference is the girls were acting on their fear in some ridiculous effort to feel right about themselves the lady they wronged was just hiding from her fears.
Horse phlegm. Your blanket condemnation of two people you don't know and probably never will with a rant about their intentions to feel right about themselves is so out of whack with reality it's ludicrous. You yearn to talk about religion? Read your own post. You're inflicting plenty. Is it making you feel more right about yourself to post that or are you just here on Jihad? What's your purpose? This might be the wrong place to declare a righteous war. There's plent of street corners. Which one are you going to be at this Sunday morning when all the ne'er do wells are out in their Sunday best going to church so they can get some of those religious feel goods you're so concerned about? Or do you prefer blind posting on ex-Way boards?
Your statements about religion are one thing, in fact we probably agree more than we disagree but you're coming on like some Holy Knower who's going to blow fire up my skirt stating the obvious. And I don't even wear a skirt, but the draft is freezing my nads. You're starting an argument when there isn't one. Yet. Why not just state your case in a thread and discuss it? Because you're ....ed off about the sorry state of a world that sucks on a good day? Join the club. The line starts to the right. No cuts
“You used a lot of words and definition but you failed to say anything.
I think what the solders are doing democratizing the middle east is just plain wrong no matter how many new power plants they build or schools they open. The war is unjustified therefore the people who fight in it are also unjustified and murderers when they kill someone.
You said, quote “Did anyone do anything good while they were involved with the way?
Then you answered yourself with, “Of course.” That made me dizzy dizzydog, of course I would disagree with you since good is a subjective opinion.”
In other words you’d rather throw around a lot of pompous hogwash than actually respond specifically to what I posted. I never said anything about the Middle East. And we could discuss the Middle East in another forum, I might actually agree with you, on some points. Is the military that offensive to you? All right lets pick another profession. How about the police? They have many examples of altruistic behavior. Perhaps we could look at the medical community or fire fighters. How many people in our society lay their lives on the line in just such a behavior.
Perhaps you should define what you mean by “good”. It seems your idea of good is different from mine. Or would you rather just throw around more irrelevant statements? I realize it’s difficult to actually formulate your thoughts into something coherent but give it a try, you might make some sense.
As far as my statement about good happening in the way, I think I already explained what I meant by that statement. I know many people who benefited from the good that someone else did for them, and yes they were in The Way. Do you want an example? How about a fellowship collecting money to help a homeless woman with children get an apartment? How about another fellowship helping a man in the hospital pay for his medical bills? I know many such stories. Do we ignore the benefits of these actions because the organization was flawed? That is a remarkably narrow view.
You said, “It seems your idea of good is different from mine.” Do you think? Yes my idea of good is completely different from yours as I have pointed out.
I do not believe the girls were doing any good. As a matter of fact I think just like I was used to do evil by the Way when I went around telling people about Jesus and running fellowships the girls were being used by their dumb A** parents to keep there stupid ideas alive in their children. If the girls believed they were doing good fine it does not matter because only God knows the truth and there intent means nothing.
You are the one who said something about soldiers not me so I simply told you what I think about them by using the present military action in Iraq. A real soldier understands that God must come before country or you are just a murdering thug no matter how much infrastructure you build for the people you don’t kill.
Do you think you are competent to define what is good for another human being or even yourself? I do not believe I am. If you are capable of telling me what is good for me to do maybe I should worship you.
Are you that calloused that you cannot simply look at the actions of someone else and say whether their actions are good or not? You keep trying to impugn based on motive. And yet you don’t know the motive in any of these situations.
I did indeed bring up soldiers. I might remind you that our military has been a part of many conflicts over the course of our history not just the one we are currently in. Do you impugn all in the military, past and present because you disagree with our current policy? If you want to filibuster with an irrelevant statement that’s your privilege but it makes you look like a fool.
You wrote:
“Do you think you are competent to define what is good for another human being or even yourself? I do not believe I am. If you are capable of telling me what is good for me to do maybe I should worship you.”
Yes I do think I am competent to define what is good for another human being, at least in some things. I do it every day to the best of my ability when I teach my children. You’re not fighting with me on this Peahead. You’re fighting some of the most basic tenets of society. As far as worshipping me, that would not be good for you so you shouldn’t do it.
See how this works?
What now Peahead? Give me another moment of brilliance.
"was it flyberg or cynic or something like that, abigail? I remember someone posting in the same way before."
Naw, Cynic wouldn't change his handle. I may not always agree with him, but he is consistent and open.
But I knew I would remember.....here's a cut and paste from a previous post by Early2it:
"
All religious establishments are nothing more than the ambitions of idiots with good intentions who think they can do God's job for Him. The Way International is no exception. Evil is at the very core of such things. All religious establishments are nothing more than the ambitions of idiots with good intentions who think they can do God's job for Him. The Way International is no exception. Evil is at the very core of such things."
"was it flyberg or cynic or something like that, abigail? I remember someone posting in the same way before."
Naw, Cynic wouldn't change his handle. I may not always agree with him, but he is consistent and open.
But I knew I would remember.....here's a cut and paste from a previous post by Early2it:
"
All religious establishments are nothing more than the ambitions of idiots with good intentions who think they can do God's job for Him. The Way International is no exception. Evil is at the very core of such things. All religious establishments are nothing more than the ambitions of idiots with good intentions who think they can do God's job for Him. The Way International is no exception. Evil is at the very core of such things."
Abigail,
That is great. I couldn't have said it better that is extreme I love extreme. how do I read the rest of his posts?
Peahead, you can run and you can hide. In the, where was it...
the library?
:D-->
Got it.
Socks,
Socks,
I use the library and the Job links here in Palm Bay Florida. I don't exactly understand what you are trying to say.
Because I think these girls were really up to no good you people have a hissy fit. I don't get it. I am simply stating my opinion I thought that was what this forum was all about.
Not one of you has said anything that would lead me to change my opinion.
I absolutely agree with this quote
All religious establishments are nothing more than the ambitions of idiots with good intentions who think they can do God's job for Him. The Way International is no exception. Evil is at the very core of such things. All religious establishments are nothing more than the ambitions of idiots with good intentions who think they can do God's job for Him. The Way International is no exception. Evil is at the very core of such things."
Which part of that didn't you understand Peahead? I don't understand.
#1 - I'm not trying to change your opinion, so I feel good about the fact I haven't.
#2 - If disagreeing with you is going to be characterized as a hissy fit, I can't wait to hear what you call serious aggression.
#3 - You still haven't explained why you've come to the conclusions you have and if you haven't by now you're probably not going to so I'm not going to ask again. (note loose application of the word "again").
#4 - In this example of the girls, the woman's response was one thing and the girls baking the cookies was another. IMO, the bad was created by the woman, not the girls. The "bad" was a product of the woman's perception. To her there was nothing good about it. To the girls, the intention was to do something nice for someone else. Whether or not that was good only works to the point the stupid cookies get on the doorstep. At that point their intentions are completed whatever they were. It's not a religious ritual, it's not repeatable. And all in all it doesn't really matter a whole heck of a lot does it? Except that it provided a mirror of sorts.
#5 - You sound like you're in the same position as the woman having a fright-fest over a knock on the door. She wouldn't know good, bad or chaotic slipstreams in time if they hit her on the head. In her world, things aren't what they appear to be. She's scared by her perceptions, not reality.
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peahead
Belle,
If you are arguing it is with yourself not me. I have said from the beginning we disagree. I made the mistake of thinking you had an interest in hearing my opinion since your heart is filled with such goodness and all you know.
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alfakat
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dizzydog
Peahead,
As I read your comments regarding these girls and your subsequent responses to different posters here I think perhaps we should look at what is really being defined by these girls actions.
You assert that the motivations of these girls are religious based, that may well be true but I challenge you to find the facts to support this in the details that have been posted here. I don’t think anyone has written this about these girls in any other media either. I heard one of the girls interviewed and she never once mentioned her faith or religion.
You’ve continued to make comments about religion despite your assertions that you aren’t interested in discussing religion. I think perhaps what’s really being displayed here isn’t religion but altruism. Perhaps the motivation for what they did came from a strong sense of religion or faith but the effect was something altruistic.
Websters defines Altruism as:
1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others
2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species
While it defines Religion as:
1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjective
As you say, only you (and I would add God) know whether you have anything good in your heart, this would probably include any manner of altruism. Indeed I’m sure you could live your whole life doing nothing bad, but also doing nothing altruistic. Many people live this way. If you have children I would venture to say you don’t fall into this category.
You may not agree with religion but you cannot deny altruism or the results of it. If you live in the United States you have benefited from the altruism of others. The military has many examples of men and women who selflessly laid down their own lives for the benefit of others, no one ever questions their religious intent when this happens.
I realize these girls didn’t do anything nearly so heroic so the example of what they did should be viewed in a different light. I can look at what they did and see altruism without knowing their motivations.
Their religion on the other hand is only revealed when they choose to say this is why they did what they did. Denying goodness (or in this definition altruism) when viewed in this light is as ignorant as denying the world is round after seeing a globe. What’s there is there and saying it doesn’t exist doesn’t change the proof to the contrary. Even if my motives are selfish the benefit to someone else can still be seen and experienced by the recipient.
Impugning religion in this context is as ignorant as saying the sacrifice of a soldier is of none effect because the military has some bad elements to it. You’re making an apples to oranges comparison.
Did anyone do anything good while they were involved with the way? Of course, but we can only see this when we measure these actions against what’s altruistic and not against what’s religious.
Of the three people people in this story, the 2 teens and the 49 year old woman who sued, who was being altruistic as Webster's defines altruism?
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peahead
Dizzydog,
You used a lot of words and definition but you failed to say anything.
I think what the solders are doing democratizing the middle east is just plain wrong no matter how many new power plants they build or schools they open. The war is unjustified therefore the people who fight in it are also unjustified and murderers when they kill someone.
You said, quote “Did anyone do anything good while they were involved with the way?
Then you answered yourself with, “Of course.” That made me dizzy dizzydog, of course I would disagree with you since good is a subjective opinion.
God is the only one who can objectively say if what you did in and for the Way was “GOOD” or not. I believe a lot of “GOOD” people are going to find out how all the things they do which they think are beneficial and “GOOD” are in actuality very detrimental. You may be just such an individual.
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alfakat
you are the one who is saying NOTHING, "peahead"...we are not talking war here...go to Political forum if you are going to bring that .... up... get a freaking clue...
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vickles
Peahead, I think you are reading way too much into this....dizzy dog said a soldier laying down his life...he said nothing about war in the middle east.
There has been nothing said about these girls baking cookies because of a religous reason.
I guess thats why I go by vickles and you go by peahead....
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socks
Well I feel ignored.
Look Peahead, Jaysus Frigging Key Riste, you're as bad as me. We may be related.
Horse phlegm. Your blanket condemnation of two people you don't know and probably never will with a rant about their intentions to feel right about themselves is so out of whack with reality it's ludicrous. You yearn to talk about religion? Read your own post. You're inflicting plenty. Is it making you feel more right about yourself to post that or are you just here on Jihad? What's your purpose? This might be the wrong place to declare a righteous war. There's plent of street corners. Which one are you going to be at this Sunday morning when all the ne'er do wells are out in their Sunday best going to church so they can get some of those religious feel goods you're so concerned about? Or do you prefer blind posting on ex-Way boards?
Your statements about religion are one thing, in fact we probably agree more than we disagree but you're coming on like some Holy Knower who's going to blow fire up my skirt stating the obvious. And I don't even wear a skirt, but the draft is freezing my nads. You're starting an argument when there isn't one. Yet. Why not just state your case in a thread and discuss it? Because you're ....ed off about the sorry state of a world that sucks on a good day? Join the club. The line starts to the right. No cuts
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HAPe4me
pea used a library computer from 9am to 3pm ? (adjust for your own timezones)
uh huh
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Abigail
And I thought I was the cynic when it came to this story. Sheesh!
The pseudonym is new, but the rhetoric is not. I can't recall the name I've seen this theme under previously, but it will come to me eventually.
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vickles
was it flyberg or cynic or something like that, abigail? I remember someone posting in the same way before.
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dizzydog
Peahead,
You wrote:
“You used a lot of words and definition but you failed to say anything.
I think what the solders are doing democratizing the middle east is just plain wrong no matter how many new power plants they build or schools they open. The war is unjustified therefore the people who fight in it are also unjustified and murderers when they kill someone.
You said, quote “Did anyone do anything good while they were involved with the way?
Then you answered yourself with, “Of course.” That made me dizzy dizzydog, of course I would disagree with you since good is a subjective opinion.”
In other words you’d rather throw around a lot of pompous hogwash than actually respond specifically to what I posted. I never said anything about the Middle East. And we could discuss the Middle East in another forum, I might actually agree with you, on some points. Is the military that offensive to you? All right lets pick another profession. How about the police? They have many examples of altruistic behavior. Perhaps we could look at the medical community or fire fighters. How many people in our society lay their lives on the line in just such a behavior.
Perhaps you should define what you mean by “good”. It seems your idea of good is different from mine. Or would you rather just throw around more irrelevant statements? I realize it’s difficult to actually formulate your thoughts into something coherent but give it a try, you might make some sense.
As far as my statement about good happening in the way, I think I already explained what I meant by that statement. I know many people who benefited from the good that someone else did for them, and yes they were in The Way. Do you want an example? How about a fellowship collecting money to help a homeless woman with children get an apartment? How about another fellowship helping a man in the hospital pay for his medical bills? I know many such stories. Do we ignore the benefits of these actions because the organization was flawed? That is a remarkably narrow view.
You still haven’t answered my question Peahead.
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peahead
Dizzydog,
You said, “It seems your idea of good is different from mine.” Do you think? Yes my idea of good is completely different from yours as I have pointed out.
I do not believe the girls were doing any good. As a matter of fact I think just like I was used to do evil by the Way when I went around telling people about Jesus and running fellowships the girls were being used by their dumb A** parents to keep there stupid ideas alive in their children. If the girls believed they were doing good fine it does not matter because only God knows the truth and there intent means nothing.
You are the one who said something about soldiers not me so I simply told you what I think about them by using the present military action in Iraq. A real soldier understands that God must come before country or you are just a murdering thug no matter how much infrastructure you build for the people you don’t kill.
Do you think you are competent to define what is good for another human being or even yourself? I do not believe I am. If you are capable of telling me what is good for me to do maybe I should worship you.
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dizzydog
Peahead,
Are you that calloused that you cannot simply look at the actions of someone else and say whether their actions are good or not? You keep trying to impugn based on motive. And yet you don’t know the motive in any of these situations.
I did indeed bring up soldiers. I might remind you that our military has been a part of many conflicts over the course of our history not just the one we are currently in. Do you impugn all in the military, past and present because you disagree with our current policy? If you want to filibuster with an irrelevant statement that’s your privilege but it makes you look like a fool.
You wrote:
“Do you think you are competent to define what is good for another human being or even yourself? I do not believe I am. If you are capable of telling me what is good for me to do maybe I should worship you.”
Yes I do think I am competent to define what is good for another human being, at least in some things. I do it every day to the best of my ability when I teach my children. You’re not fighting with me on this Peahead. You’re fighting some of the most basic tenets of society. As far as worshipping me, that would not be good for you so you shouldn’t do it.
See how this works?
What now Peahead? Give me another moment of brilliance.
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Abigail
"was it flyberg or cynic or something like that, abigail? I remember someone posting in the same way before."
Naw, Cynic wouldn't change his handle. I may not always agree with him, but he is consistent and open.
But I knew I would remember.....here's a cut and paste from a previous post by Early2it:
"
All religious establishments are nothing more than the ambitions of idiots with good intentions who think they can do God's job for Him. The Way International is no exception. Evil is at the very core of such things. All religious establishments are nothing more than the ambitions of idiots with good intentions who think they can do God's job for Him. The Way International is no exception. Evil is at the very core of such things."
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washingtonweather
abby-- you are sharp!
what would be without you! not as good!
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socks
Peahead, you can run and you can hide. In the, where was it...
the library?
Got it.
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peahead
Abigail,
That is great. I couldn't have said it better that is extreme I love extreme. how do I read the rest of his posts?
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peahead
Socks,
Socks,
I use the library and the Job links here in Palm Bay Florida. I don't exactly understand what you are trying to say.
Because I think these girls were really up to no good you people have a hissy fit. I don't get it. I am simply stating my opinion I thought that was what this forum was all about.
Not one of you has said anything that would lead me to change my opinion.
I absolutely agree with this quote
All religious establishments are nothing more than the ambitions of idiots with good intentions who think they can do God's job for Him. The Way International is no exception. Evil is at the very core of such things. All religious establishments are nothing more than the ambitions of idiots with good intentions who think they can do God's job for Him. The Way International is no exception. Evil is at the very core of such things."
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dizzydog
You're right Peahead. It is a forum, where ideas are exchanged. That's all I see happening here. You don't have to respond.
Hissy fit? Hmmm... That's witty.
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socks
Which part of that didn't you understand Peahead? I don't understand.
#1 - I'm not trying to change your opinion, so I feel good about the fact I haven't.
#2 - If disagreeing with you is going to be characterized as a hissy fit, I can't wait to hear what you call serious aggression.
#3 - You still haven't explained why you've come to the conclusions you have and if you haven't by now you're probably not going to so I'm not going to ask again. (note loose application of the word "again").
#4 - In this example of the girls, the woman's response was one thing and the girls baking the cookies was another. IMO, the bad was created by the woman, not the girls. The "bad" was a product of the woman's perception. To her there was nothing good about it. To the girls, the intention was to do something nice for someone else. Whether or not that was good only works to the point the stupid cookies get on the doorstep. At that point their intentions are completed whatever they were. It's not a religious ritual, it's not repeatable. And all in all it doesn't really matter a whole heck of a lot does it? Except that it provided a mirror of sorts.
#5 - You sound like you're in the same position as the woman having a fright-fest over a knock on the door. She wouldn't know good, bad or chaotic slipstreams in time if they hit her on the head. In her world, things aren't what they appear to be. She's scared by her perceptions, not reality.
#6 - Boo.
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alfakat
in the words of one Bugs Bunny, noted commentator on social matters of our times, "What a maroon!"
sheeesh...
-->
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Al Poole
ALFAKAT......... thanks for the picture logo.... now I FINALLY "get" your handle !!!!!
Sorry... I may be a little slow sometimes!!!!
I think peahead just wants a circular debate... his profile says "ex way" but his posts don't read like it. Somethings not right about this one folks.
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alfakat
hey, Al, thanks
:D--> 
;)-->
if you check this link out you will know why...
Why I am an "alfakat"
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