GO has recently conducted a membership survey to figure out who is doing what where and in what capacity. They are using this data to design educational programs for their membership appropriate to their place in the grand scheme of things. We are currently running a sustainable living series at Piedmont Park in Atlanta and providing farmer to farmer mentoring assistance at the local level. Hopefully in the next year we will find funding for an organic resource agent, begin an organic ag college curriculum and hook up with a local media outlet to produce educational (read PBS) type videos.
Editor's note: Since 1997, non-profit Georgia Organics has been promoting healthy food, farms, and communities in Georgia and neighboring states. Their 8th annual conference, "New Harvest: Connecting Growers and Consumers Year-Round," will be held in partnership with the Alabama Sustainable Agricultural Network and will feature organic farming and season extension pioneer Eliot Coleman as a keynote speaker. New Farm freelancer Skip Connett caught up with Coleman a few weeks ago and contributed this interview to whet your appetite for the event. (A version of this interview also appears in the Winter 2004 issue of News from Georgia Organics.)
Connett: You are best known for your hoop houses. How portable are your ideas and techniques to other parts of the country?
Coleman: We have a layer of plastic a foot above the soil inside the greenhouse. So we have a double layered system. Each layer of covering moves me 500 miles south. So when I enter the greenhouse, I am in New Jersey. And when I reach my hand under the inner layer, my hand is in Georgia. You guys are already where I am spending an awful lot of money getting to.
We also have noticed that growth slows way down for the period of winter when day length is less than 10 hours. For us, that is November 15 to February 7. For you guys it is December 21. Period. You have all the sun anyone could ever want. Georgia doesn't need to import one single bit of winter food.
Connett: So why hasn't your system caught on down here?
Coleman: It's a curious thing. When we came over here as settlers we didn't bring that tradition of greenhouses with us because it didn't exist in the way it does in Europe now until the early part of the 20th century. People came from lower socio-economic strata, so the tradition never got started here.
Connett: So really technology has allowed hoop house farming to catch on.
Coleman: The miracle is nothing more than that sheet of plastic. I have greenhouses with metal pipe ribs but there is a neat kid I know in northern Vermont who makes his own poles out of what he cuts in the woods. He is putting up huge greenhouses for about 30 cents a square foot. At that price you can almost not afford not to build it. And there are new ways of fastening the plastic now that would allow someone in the South to take the plastic off at the end of March. You just uncover this thing and re-cover with shade cloth if you want, and put plastic back in November and run through until March again.
Connett: It sounds too good to be true. What is missing here?
Coleman: From where you are, there is absolutely nothing missing. Up here in our minimally heated greenhouses, with the present price of propane, I probably won't get paid in January and February. I'll keep working and pay the workers and pay bills, but I won't get paid. We are fighting enough cold, given the systems that are easy to use, that it is difficult. We will eventually have to put in a wood (heating) system. But where you are, none of these wintergreens need more protection then just a hoop house.
* * *
"I tell people there is as much difference between my carrots and supermarket carrots as there is between a [Ford] Fairlane and a Mercedes."
* * *
Connett: Have you reached the limits at Four Season Farm? How much further can you push nature?
Coleman: Last year, in 2003, on an acre and a half, we sold a $100,000 of produce. I think we can do $150,000 if we ironed out all the things we do wrong.
Connett: What is your five-year plan for the farm?
Coleman: We have put some heat into some of our greenhouses because crops like baby turnips and radishes won't play out in our totally unheated system here where it can go down to 20 below. So we are continuing to experiment with ways to run unheated greenhouses and there is an endless amount of messing around there. But we have been working with a local engineer in creating equipment for this type of farming because there isn't any. We have a little lightweight rototiller you can use in greenhouses. It goes very shallowly and is powered by a cordless drill. We are making a new seeder that will allow you to plant rows together in the greenhouse, so you can get maximum use out of it.
Connett: So you are improving tools and refining practices?
Coleman: Yes. Most people think that biology is the tough thing in farming, especially because it’s organic farming. Basically, the biology is pretty easy. It’s the economics that is difficult. What I keep working on is trying to figure out ways to make the production system more efficient. Human beings, unfortunately, given the choice between a Motorola and a Sony, will choose the Sony. Given a choice between a Ford Fairlane and a Mercedes, they buy the Mercedes. But those same people are convinced that a carrot is a carrot is a carrot. And I tell people there is as much difference between my carrots and supermarket carrots as there is between a Fairlane and a Mercedes. But that concept has just never been able to penetrate people's minds.
Connett: How do you market in the winter -- is it different than the rest of the year?
Coleman: We run a system where we sell from October through June. We often jokingly refer to ourselves as the backwards farm. There are tons of outdoor field growers in the summer, so why add to that competition. We just steal the rest of the year. We could easily be 10 times bigger. People are just dying to have something fresh. They instinctively realize that the week-old stuff from California is exactly that—a week old.
Connett: Is there research to support those instincts?
Coleman: There is a group in Europe—Organic Food Quality and Health —and it has some pretty respectable research from European universities there. So the research is beginning to come out. A new study from Denmark, for example, is showing there are far higher levels of vitamin E in organic milk, purely because of the way the cows are fed.
We have our acre and a half of about 40 different vegetables, year round. And we use no pesticides, not so much because we are opposed to them but there is no reason to. We have nothing to use them against.
Connett: But hasn’t that taken a long time coming about?
Coleman: Not really. Sure there have been pests that were more gnarly then others, but solving the problem was based on figuring out what I was doing wrong. And I take that as my foundation for thinking. My God, if it is possible to do that with plants, it is equally possible to do that with people. And what I am doing with plants, I am making sure they don't get anything dumped on their soil that Mother Nature didn't create, because she has been running this system for millions of years. I'm convinced the same thing is true of our bodies.
* * *
"[Growing organic food] isn't a goal; it's a process. You have to figure out how to continue to get good."
* * *
Connett: You make the distinction between “shallow organic farming” and “deep organic farming.” Whole Foods, Horizon, and other large organic retailers would fall into the first category, yet haven’t they played a big role in educating the public about the benefits of organic and in increasing the market?
Coleman: My objection is they set the bar too low or fail to set a bar at all. It isn't a goal; it's a process. You have to figure out how to continue to get good. It's kind of like Regis DeBray’s revolution in the revolution. You have to keep stirring the pot, otherwise you get complacent and fat.
Connett: So what is your vision of agriculture in the 21st century?
For More Information...
About the Georgia Organics Conference
visit www.georgiaorganics.org or contact Mary Anne Woodie on (404) 697-5279 or Maryanne@georgiaorganics.org. Register by January 28 to get the best rate!
Coleman: Visions rarely change things. I am amazed that organic has done as well as it has. What is going to change things – and there is a lot of agreement among geologists – is that we are at the peak of oil production. And demand is going up so fast that there will no longer be cheap oil. It is cheap oil that makes it possible to ship tomatoes all the way from Mexico to Maine. In 20 years, the small local farm is going to look better and better because the cost of transportation is going to be a lot bigger chunk of the price than it is now.
Skip Connett is a freelance writer based in Atlanta, Georgia. His last feature for NewFarm.org was "Ups and downs of worm growing keep Georgia farmer on his toes" (September 2003).
Our conference was a rousing success. We had close to 400 folks attending and approximately 100 went on the farm tour.
To see the professionalism and dedication to making this major event a reality is very humbling and encougaging. From the sherrifs dept that took out the inmates in bad weather to pick up trash alongside the tour route to the farmers and artists that donated food and art, to the local politicians who have supported us for many years, it was amazing.
There is talk of starting a sustainable ag curriculum at my college now and perhaps a teaching farm as well.
CONGRATULATIONS!!!! That is fabulous news! I know well all the hard work you put into getting this thing on the map and am so thrilled to hear of its success. Great job!
Wonderful that there is growing interst in the area. See what one passionate, visionary, crazy guy can effect in a community?????
Congrats, Herbie!! It's got to be gratifying for you, after all the hard work you did, even if it IS a labor of love.
I'm reminded once again of the Ira H&arns and the Grace Bli&ses and the El&ie Wilsons and the many others never in twi who have advocated for growing and eating better food, taking better care of our land, and finding better ways to do all of these things.
Hats off to you and your colleagues in this venture!!!
Sustainable farming, forestry, etc. is sometimes just words that are thrown around because they sound good. But we were given the Earth "to dress it". Whenever we use Godly practices we always reap the highest benefits....and I don't care if it's carrots or money or friends!
It's the principle of the thing and I'm so happy you have the where-with-all to follow through on this.
Carroll County Farmland & Rural Preservation Partnership is open to all concerned citizens. Participants include part-time and full-time farmers, homeowners, county and city government personnel, businesspeople, land-use planners, and teachers.
Sponsoring organizations:
Carroll County Cooperative Extension Service,
Rolling Hills Resource Conservation & Development Council,
Carroll County Farm Bureau
Supported by Resolution by the Carroll County Board of Commissioners
These Commisioners postponed their annual retreat so the Commision Chair could attend.
Next month Joel Salitan and John Ikard (sp?) will be coming to Bowdon for our 2nd Farmland Expo.
This means that within a month's time we will have hosted the top three sustainable ag guru's in the world.
These is a general consensus that we have the momentum, will and skills to take this alot further.
I am almost overwhelemed with emotion, lots of grateful prayers and a few joyful tears :)-->
I hosted and coordinated the farm tours which was a blast.
Ken a grower near Tallapoosa is going into this with a passion. He has several sled mounted greenhouses which he uses to get a jump on the growing season. This allows him to put tomatoes in the ground in early Feb and in a month and a half he'll move the house and be harvesting delicious tomatoes come May.
He has an interesting solution for the deer problem, he sets standard metal fence posts at a 45 degree angle pointed out, uses 4 runs of barbed wire and 1 charged wire. He says that the deer can jump high and they can jump long but in their minds they cannot do both. Interesting theory and since he has his tomatoes and strawberry's behind the wire I reckon we'll find out if it works soon enough.
One of the buses broke down at his farm and pretty much blocked off the road but they sent out another bus and we got everybody back 30 minutes later.
Janet has a small farm near here where she raises goats chickens pigs and a market garden on two acres. She has a novel approach to two southern pesticlances, kudzu and privet, she simply allows it to grow and grazes her goats on it, smart girl that Janet eh? :)-->
Anyways it was mucho fun, I gave some local history and a bit of a geography lesson while we were going from place to place and folks seemed to enjoy it alot. I told them of the oldtime moonshiners up around Buncombe that used to run fresh still squeezings into Tennessee and of the vinyards and wineries that back in the 1800's flourished in these parts (don't be surprised to see a few of them popping up in a few years). I told them of my meanderings around the Tally Mountain goldmine and the bits and pieces of volcanic matter I found there, of my friend Adam who restored the Corner Drug Store building and jump started Bowdon's downtown revival efforts. Several people commented on just how beautiful the Appalachian piedmont was.
I just got off the phone with the Prez of GO. We will be holding an executive committee meeting to consider developing a technical school certificate program in sustainable agriculture. The man most likely responsible for developing the program at the local college has agreed in principle to the plan and suggested a location for the farm. He and I go back along ways, he took over the mayors office here when I was unable to because I told people the truth.
I got an email from the Rural Development Council foks and sent them back a summary of what's been done regarding the curriculum, fortunately I responded to the group instead of the contact person from the RDC.
Skip got ahold of the email and said he had just met with a past undersecretary of ag who is a pointman for the ####### Foundation, the same foundation I had spoken with earlier regarding funding. This gentleman is in Atlanta this week and Skip is doing backflips to get him to the conference so we can make the pitch :D-->
Jerry also recieved the email. He works with a college in NC that has a program similar to what we want. He will be attending the conference and wants to talk with us about their program.
I'm guessing we'll form a committee to draft the program and dig up supporting documentation.
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krys
Herb - let me congratulatate you on this. I hope your conference is more successful than you can dream.
I'm so glad this kind of farming is being encouraged. Everybody eats better!
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dmiller
Nude, or otherwise?
:D--> 
:D-->
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herbiejuan
Clothing Optional?
ROFLMAO!!
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Galen
Hmm,
As I have posted and discussed previously, I keep honey-bees.
I have never thought to do it 'au-natural'
Do you find this works 'better' for you?
Would you be so kind to give a short pro vs. con from your experiences, to guide us in why you like nude-beekeeping?
I could see doing this while changing out their water, but I am not entirely convinced such is my prefered method for harvesting the frames.
:-)
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herbiejuan
Galen it's a matter of just how much you trust yerself and the bee's
;)-->
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herbiejuan
GO has recently conducted a membership survey to figure out who is doing what where and in what capacity. They are using this data to design educational programs for their membership appropriate to their place in the grand scheme of things. We are currently running a sustainable living series at Piedmont Park in Atlanta and providing farmer to farmer mentoring assistance at the local level. Hopefully in the next year we will find funding for an organic resource agent, begin an organic ag college curriculum and hook up with a local media outlet to produce educational (read PBS) type videos.
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herbiejuan
This Article came out in the online version of The New Farm published by Rodale
http://www.newfarm.org/features/2005/0105/...man/index.shtml
Editor's note: Since 1997, non-profit Georgia Organics has been promoting healthy food, farms, and communities in Georgia and neighboring states. Their 8th annual conference, "New Harvest: Connecting Growers and Consumers Year-Round," will be held in partnership with the Alabama Sustainable Agricultural Network and will feature organic farming and season extension pioneer Eliot Coleman as a keynote speaker. New Farm freelancer Skip Connett caught up with Coleman a few weeks ago and contributed this interview to whet your appetite for the event. (A version of this interview also appears in the Winter 2004 issue of News from Georgia Organics.)
Connett: You are best known for your hoop houses. How portable are your ideas and techniques to other parts of the country?
Coleman: We have a layer of plastic a foot above the soil inside the greenhouse. So we have a double layered system. Each layer of covering moves me 500 miles south. So when I enter the greenhouse, I am in New Jersey. And when I reach my hand under the inner layer, my hand is in Georgia. You guys are already where I am spending an awful lot of money getting to.
We also have noticed that growth slows way down for the period of winter when day length is less than 10 hours. For us, that is November 15 to February 7. For you guys it is December 21. Period. You have all the sun anyone could ever want. Georgia doesn't need to import one single bit of winter food.
Connett: So why hasn't your system caught on down here?
Coleman: It's a curious thing. When we came over here as settlers we didn't bring that tradition of greenhouses with us because it didn't exist in the way it does in Europe now until the early part of the 20th century. People came from lower socio-economic strata, so the tradition never got started here.
Connett: So really technology has allowed hoop house farming to catch on.
Coleman: The miracle is nothing more than that sheet of plastic. I have greenhouses with metal pipe ribs but there is a neat kid I know in northern Vermont who makes his own poles out of what he cuts in the woods. He is putting up huge greenhouses for about 30 cents a square foot. At that price you can almost not afford not to build it. And there are new ways of fastening the plastic now that would allow someone in the South to take the plastic off at the end of March. You just uncover this thing and re-cover with shade cloth if you want, and put plastic back in November and run through until March again.
Connett: It sounds too good to be true. What is missing here?
Coleman: From where you are, there is absolutely nothing missing. Up here in our minimally heated greenhouses, with the present price of propane, I probably won't get paid in January and February. I'll keep working and pay the workers and pay bills, but I won't get paid. We are fighting enough cold, given the systems that are easy to use, that it is difficult. We will eventually have to put in a wood (heating) system. But where you are, none of these wintergreens need more protection then just a hoop house.
* * *
"I tell people there is as much difference between my carrots and supermarket carrots as there is between a [Ford] Fairlane and a Mercedes."
* * *
Connett: Have you reached the limits at Four Season Farm? How much further can you push nature?
Coleman: Last year, in 2003, on an acre and a half, we sold a $100,000 of produce. I think we can do $150,000 if we ironed out all the things we do wrong.
Connett: What is your five-year plan for the farm?
Coleman: We have put some heat into some of our greenhouses because crops like baby turnips and radishes won't play out in our totally unheated system here where it can go down to 20 below. So we are continuing to experiment with ways to run unheated greenhouses and there is an endless amount of messing around there. But we have been working with a local engineer in creating equipment for this type of farming because there isn't any. We have a little lightweight rototiller you can use in greenhouses. It goes very shallowly and is powered by a cordless drill. We are making a new seeder that will allow you to plant rows together in the greenhouse, so you can get maximum use out of it.
Connett: So you are improving tools and refining practices?
Coleman: Yes. Most people think that biology is the tough thing in farming, especially because it’s organic farming. Basically, the biology is pretty easy. It’s the economics that is difficult. What I keep working on is trying to figure out ways to make the production system more efficient. Human beings, unfortunately, given the choice between a Motorola and a Sony, will choose the Sony. Given a choice between a Ford Fairlane and a Mercedes, they buy the Mercedes. But those same people are convinced that a carrot is a carrot is a carrot. And I tell people there is as much difference between my carrots and supermarket carrots as there is between a Fairlane and a Mercedes. But that concept has just never been able to penetrate people's minds.
Connett: How do you market in the winter -- is it different than the rest of the year?
Coleman: We run a system where we sell from October through June. We often jokingly refer to ourselves as the backwards farm. There are tons of outdoor field growers in the summer, so why add to that competition. We just steal the rest of the year. We could easily be 10 times bigger. People are just dying to have something fresh. They instinctively realize that the week-old stuff from California is exactly that—a week old.
Connett: Is there research to support those instincts?
Coleman: There is a group in Europe—Organic Food Quality and Health —and it has some pretty respectable research from European universities there. So the research is beginning to come out. A new study from Denmark, for example, is showing there are far higher levels of vitamin E in organic milk, purely because of the way the cows are fed.
We have our acre and a half of about 40 different vegetables, year round. And we use no pesticides, not so much because we are opposed to them but there is no reason to. We have nothing to use them against.
Connett: But hasn’t that taken a long time coming about?
Coleman: Not really. Sure there have been pests that were more gnarly then others, but solving the problem was based on figuring out what I was doing wrong. And I take that as my foundation for thinking. My God, if it is possible to do that with plants, it is equally possible to do that with people. And what I am doing with plants, I am making sure they don't get anything dumped on their soil that Mother Nature didn't create, because she has been running this system for millions of years. I'm convinced the same thing is true of our bodies.
* * *
"[Growing organic food] isn't a goal; it's a process. You have to figure out how to continue to get good."
* * *
Connett: You make the distinction between “shallow organic farming” and “deep organic farming.” Whole Foods, Horizon, and other large organic retailers would fall into the first category, yet haven’t they played a big role in educating the public about the benefits of organic and in increasing the market?
Coleman: My objection is they set the bar too low or fail to set a bar at all. It isn't a goal; it's a process. You have to figure out how to continue to get good. It's kind of like Regis DeBray’s revolution in the revolution. You have to keep stirring the pot, otherwise you get complacent and fat.
Connett: So what is your vision of agriculture in the 21st century?
For More Information...
About the Georgia Organics Conference
visit www.georgiaorganics.org or contact Mary Anne Woodie on (404) 697-5279 or Maryanne@georgiaorganics.org. Register by January 28 to get the best rate!
About Eliot Coleman and Four Season Farm,
visit www.fourseasonfarm.com.
Coleman: Visions rarely change things. I am amazed that organic has done as well as it has. What is going to change things – and there is a lot of agreement among geologists – is that we are at the peak of oil production. And demand is going up so fast that there will no longer be cheap oil. It is cheap oil that makes it possible to ship tomatoes all the way from Mexico to Maine. In 20 years, the small local farm is going to look better and better because the cost of transportation is going to be a lot bigger chunk of the price than it is now.
Skip Connett is a freelance writer based in Atlanta, Georgia. His last feature for NewFarm.org was "Ups and downs of worm growing keep Georgia farmer on his toes" (September 2003).
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sirguessalot
thanks a mil for posting all this herbiejuan
great links, too
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herbiejuan
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herbiejuan
Our conference was a rousing success. We had close to 400 folks attending and approximately 100 went on the farm tour.
To see the professionalism and dedication to making this major event a reality is very humbling and encougaging. From the sherrifs dept that took out the inmates in bad weather to pick up trash alongside the tour route to the farmers and artists that donated food and art, to the local politicians who have supported us for many years, it was amazing.
There is talk of starting a sustainable ag curriculum at my college now and perhaps a teaching farm as well.
I am blessed beyond measure
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jardinero
Mikey:
CONGRATULATIONS!!!! That is fabulous news! I know well all the hard work you put into getting this thing on the map and am so thrilled to hear of its success. Great job!
Wonderful that there is growing interst in the area. See what one passionate, visionary, crazy guy can effect in a community?????
So happy for you, dear friend.
J.
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Linda Z
Congrats, Herbie!! It's got to be gratifying for you, after all the hard work you did, even if it IS a labor of love.
I'm reminded once again of the Ira H&arns and the Grace Bli&ses and the El&ie Wilsons and the many others never in twi who have advocated for growing and eating better food, taking better care of our land, and finding better ways to do all of these things.
Hats off to you and your colleagues in this venture!!!
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Linda Z
What Jardinero said reminds me of a line from that old poem:
"One man awake can awaken another...."
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krys
Yes - this really is great stuff.
Sustainable farming, forestry, etc. is sometimes just words that are thrown around because they sound good. But we were given the Earth "to dress it". Whenever we use Godly practices we always reap the highest benefits....and I don't care if it's carrots or money or friends!
It's the principle of the thing and I'm so happy you have the where-with-all to follow through on this.
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herbiejuan
Thank you
:)-->
I'm still trying to unwind
Carroll County Farmland & Rural Preservation Partnership is open to all concerned citizens. Participants include part-time and full-time farmers, homeowners, county and city government personnel, businesspeople, land-use planners, and teachers.
Sponsoring organizations:
Carroll County Cooperative Extension Service,
Rolling Hills Resource Conservation & Development Council,
Carroll County Farm Bureau
Supported by Resolution by the Carroll County Board of Commissioners
These Commisioners postponed their annual retreat so the Commision Chair could attend.
Next month Joel Salitan and John Ikard (sp?) will be coming to Bowdon for our 2nd Farmland Expo.
This means that within a month's time we will have hosted the top three sustainable ag guru's in the world.
These is a general consensus that we have the momentum, will and skills to take this alot further.
I am almost overwhelemed with emotion, lots of grateful prayers and a few joyful tears
:)-->
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herbiejuan
I hosted and coordinated the farm tours which was a blast.
Ken a grower near Tallapoosa is going into this with a passion. He has several sled mounted greenhouses which he uses to get a jump on the growing season. This allows him to put tomatoes in the ground in early Feb and in a month and a half he'll move the house and be harvesting delicious tomatoes come May.
He has an interesting solution for the deer problem, he sets standard metal fence posts at a 45 degree angle pointed out, uses 4 runs of barbed wire and 1 charged wire. He says that the deer can jump high and they can jump long but in their minds they cannot do both. Interesting theory and since he has his tomatoes and strawberry's behind the wire I reckon we'll find out if it works soon enough.
One of the buses broke down at his farm and pretty much blocked off the road but they sent out another bus and we got everybody back 30 minutes later.
Janet has a small farm near here where she raises goats chickens pigs and a market garden on two acres. She has a novel approach to two southern pesticlances, kudzu and privet, she simply allows it to grow and grazes her goats on it, smart girl that Janet eh?
:)-->
Anyways it was mucho fun, I gave some local history and a bit of a geography lesson while we were going from place to place and folks seemed to enjoy it alot. I told them of the oldtime moonshiners up around Buncombe that used to run fresh still squeezings into Tennessee and of the vinyards and wineries that back in the 1800's flourished in these parts (don't be surprised to see a few of them popping up in a few years). I told them of my meanderings around the Tally Mountain goldmine and the bits and pieces of volcanic matter I found there, of my friend Adam who restored the Corner Drug Store building and jump started Bowdon's downtown revival efforts. Several people commented on just how beautiful the Appalachian piedmont was.
Merry Pranksters we are
:D-->
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herbiejuan
I just got off the phone with the Prez of GO. We will be holding an executive committee meeting to consider developing a technical school certificate program in sustainable agriculture. The man most likely responsible for developing the program at the local college has agreed in principle to the plan and suggested a location for the farm. He and I go back along ways, he took over the mayors office here when I was unable to because I told people the truth.
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Shellon
Someone who tells the truth.......
What a concept eh?
Good luck herb, you know I'm cheering for you.
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herbiejuan
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shazdancer
'Course, it was the news item that there would be nude beekeeping demonstrations that reeled them in....
Congratulations on a successful conference, hj!
Regards,
Shaz
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herbiejuan
Thanks Shaz
:)-->
I got an email from the Rural Development Council foks and sent them back a summary of what's been done regarding the curriculum, fortunately I responded to the group instead of the contact person from the RDC.
Skip got ahold of the email and said he had just met with a past undersecretary of ag who is a pointman for the ####### Foundation, the same foundation I had spoken with earlier regarding funding. This gentleman is in Atlanta this week and Skip is doing backflips to get him to the conference so we can make the pitch
:D-->
Jerry also recieved the email. He works with a college in NC that has a program similar to what we want. He will be attending the conference and wants to talk with us about their program.
I'm guessing we'll form a committee to draft the program and dig up supporting documentation.
Be fun me thinks
;)-->
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