quote: Please tell me that you don’t subscribe to the same belief as Mr. Piper.
Nope, not even close, not in the same universe as this guy.
Natural disasters, diseases, catastrophes, earthquakes, tsunamis, cyclones are all functions of the natural world in which we live that have logical and reasonable explanations as to their occurences, most are predictable or will be in the not too distant future.
If(big if) man has a 'sin' it is that he is for the most part far removed from awareness of the rhythms of the natural world around him. Its a shortcoming which I think alot of people ares seriously looking at...
These disasters are not the product of some deities dice game-I thought we had moved beyond those superstitions sometime in the middle ages.
I was kinda curious about how the true believer would try to square an all-loving, all-powerful god with a tragedy of this magnitude, and I can't say I'm much surprised by this tack.
God's trying to teach us an important lesson, I'm sure. Or maybe it's just that mean 'ole devil up to his tricks again (and God, in order to be just has to let him). Whatever, I'm sure there's some way to rationalize it so one's superstitions can remain intact.
Uh, uh, here we are five years into the 21st century and we've still got religious martyrs dying for their god, religious wars based on nothing more than differing superstitions, and folks still doing mental flip-flops to get Almighty God off the hook again when things go horribly wrong.
I'd like to think better of us, but it seems we're destined to live out our days with the ridiculous millstone of religiousity around our necks.
quote: I was kinda curious about how the true believer would try to square an all-loving, all-powerful god with a tragedy of this magnitude, and I can't say I'm much surprised by this tack.
But George, don't you know that thinking like this starts you down that long and dangerous path of arrogance and sin, (not to mention freedom of thought as well, which to some people is synonymous with those two things. ;)-->)
Why, you might be at that dangerous point ... of wanting your own pony. ;)-->
1searcher,
Excellent post! A post that gets one thinking about this kind of mindset, ... if one dares.
I have mixed feeling about what the piper said. On the negative side, he makes it sound like tragedies like tsunami happen because us humans are so sinful. "Feel guilty, God is punishing you!" THAT kind of crap. Personally, I don't feel it's really my responsibility to know exactly why spiritually something like this happens. Piper has created a phantom sin, here. "It's humanity's fault just because it happened. Repent, repent!!!" How is this our fault? Did any of you guys actually pray for this to happen? Did I have one bad thought too many the day before it happened? That's ridiculous! I know we were at times pushed into this mentality by TWI. The example I always use is the bless patrol person at Emporia who was reproved for not "believing" just because a car jumped the curb and ran over some shrubs late at night during their bless patrol shift. Instead of a phantom sin, it's a phantom believing. Same guilt motivation. No thanks.
On the positive side, I think we can all agree that mankind as a whole, as communities, and as individuals, cannot control everything that happens in our lives. We accept this and we make a lot of our decisions based on this. We look for help where ever we can find it. George, you don't believe in God, but you seek help from other sources. You seem to harp on what a "tragedy" it is that some ex wayfers forego a college education and that they will someday find themselves 'behind the 8 ball' financially and how it won't be pretty. You seek help from money. Nothing wrong with that. Also nothing wrong with seeking help from a God. All the money you could possibly make won't prevent your health from deteriorating and your eventual death. Neither will all the faith I could possibly come up with. Mstar, you don't make it clear that you believe in a God, but you said that tragedies like tsunami will be predictable (preventable) someday. That's faith in something isn't it?
What Piper said, in an indirect way, ultimately reminds the reader of the reality that we can't control everything. His solution is to come to God. His 'guilt attachment' notwithstanding, I can't fault him for making God an option for people to have peace of mind.
George:
quote: God's trying to teach us an important lesson, I'm sure. Or maybe it's just that mean 'ole devil up to his tricks again (and God, in order to be just has to let him). Whatever, I'm sure there's some way to rationalize it so one's superstitions can remain intact.
I believe that God is a Father, not just by seed, but by creation. This includes everybody and everything. I'm a father by biology. On Thanksgiving day of 1997 I was raking leaves outside and my then 2 yr old son was let outside. We had just moved into the place so I didn't figure he'd want to roam too far. I took my eye off him for maybe 10 seconds, looked up, he's in the street. Gave us quite a scare.
Sure, I physically forced him to do my will, but the older they get, the less I do this. Well, God made everything, including us, and every living thing He made has the potential to change in different ways, and He doesn't force His will on us or nature all the time. Is He capable of it? Sure, but it's His prerogative to get involved or not just like it's my prerogative to get involved with my own kids or not.
No, I can't prove the God I believe in exists, but neither can you prove He doesn't.
Are you saying then, that if your son had been a little older you'd have let him get run over?
No, I wouldn't think so.
Yet Almighty God can sit on the sidelines while HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people get slaughtered and just shrug His shoulders? Yeah, He sure loves us. (Damn, kinda makes God sound like an abusive father - "He punishes me sometimes 'cause I know I've been bad, but I know he really loves me!)
And no, money is not the equivalent of faith. I believe rather strongly in the laws of physics, but that's about all. Rich nations like the U.S. get a free pass when it comes to a lot of the world's ills, no doubt. Infant mortality, injuries, industrial and civic safety, communicable diseases, health care in general, all give the west a tremendous advantage over the third world. But is that due to God blessing us, or is it just the way things played out?
In any game there's going to be some winners and some losers, and a whole lot somewhere in between. You can influence the outcome to a greater or lesser degree by your own actions, and there's also an element of luck in anything.
But appealing to some invisible, anonymous god has never seemed to have any tangible effect on anything I'm aware of.
Oh, and BTW, I can't disprove the existence of Spiderman either...
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mstar1
Nope, not even close, not in the same universe as this guy.
Natural disasters, diseases, catastrophes, earthquakes, tsunamis, cyclones are all functions of the natural world in which we live that have logical and reasonable explanations as to their occurences, most are predictable or will be in the not too distant future.
If(big if) man has a 'sin' it is that he is for the most part far removed from awareness of the rhythms of the natural world around him. Its a shortcoming which I think alot of people ares seriously looking at...
These disasters are not the product of some deities dice game-I thought we had moved beyond those superstitions sometime in the middle ages.
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George Aar
I was kinda curious about how the true believer would try to square an all-loving, all-powerful god with a tragedy of this magnitude, and I can't say I'm much surprised by this tack.
God's trying to teach us an important lesson, I'm sure. Or maybe it's just that mean 'ole devil up to his tricks again (and God, in order to be just has to let him). Whatever, I'm sure there's some way to rationalize it so one's superstitions can remain intact.
Uh, uh, here we are five years into the 21st century and we've still got religious martyrs dying for their god, religious wars based on nothing more than differing superstitions, and folks still doing mental flip-flops to get Almighty God off the hook again when things go horribly wrong.
I'd like to think better of us, but it seems we're destined to live out our days with the ridiculous millstone of religiousity around our necks.
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WordWolf
What's the religious story on the tsunami?
Well, if you're an idiot, these are the headlines...
A) People who disagree with us were the primary target.
They should repent and agree with us.
B) People who are in our group were hit because they are not
zealous enough and need to be more committed.
C) Send me money and buy my book.
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GarthP2000
But George, don't you know that thinking like this starts you down that long and dangerous path of arrogance and sin, (not to mention freedom of thought as well, which to some people is synonymous with those two things.
;)-->)
Why, you might be at that dangerous point ... of wanting your own pony.
;)-->
1searcher,
Excellent post! A post that gets one thinking about this kind of mindset, ... if one dares.
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johniam
I have mixed feeling about what the piper said. On the negative side, he makes it sound like tragedies like tsunami happen because us humans are so sinful. "Feel guilty, God is punishing you!" THAT kind of crap. Personally, I don't feel it's really my responsibility to know exactly why spiritually something like this happens. Piper has created a phantom sin, here. "It's humanity's fault just because it happened. Repent, repent!!!" How is this our fault? Did any of you guys actually pray for this to happen? Did I have one bad thought too many the day before it happened? That's ridiculous! I know we were at times pushed into this mentality by TWI. The example I always use is the bless patrol person at Emporia who was reproved for not "believing" just because a car jumped the curb and ran over some shrubs late at night during their bless patrol shift. Instead of a phantom sin, it's a phantom believing. Same guilt motivation. No thanks.
On the positive side, I think we can all agree that mankind as a whole, as communities, and as individuals, cannot control everything that happens in our lives. We accept this and we make a lot of our decisions based on this. We look for help where ever we can find it. George, you don't believe in God, but you seek help from other sources. You seem to harp on what a "tragedy" it is that some ex wayfers forego a college education and that they will someday find themselves 'behind the 8 ball' financially and how it won't be pretty. You seek help from money. Nothing wrong with that. Also nothing wrong with seeking help from a God. All the money you could possibly make won't prevent your health from deteriorating and your eventual death. Neither will all the faith I could possibly come up with. Mstar, you don't make it clear that you believe in a God, but you said that tragedies like tsunami will be predictable (preventable) someday. That's faith in something isn't it?
What Piper said, in an indirect way, ultimately reminds the reader of the reality that we can't control everything. His solution is to come to God. His 'guilt attachment' notwithstanding, I can't fault him for making God an option for people to have peace of mind.
George:
quote: God's trying to teach us an important lesson, I'm sure. Or maybe it's just that mean 'ole devil up to his tricks again (and God, in order to be just has to let him). Whatever, I'm sure there's some way to rationalize it so one's superstitions can remain intact.
I believe that God is a Father, not just by seed, but by creation. This includes everybody and everything. I'm a father by biology. On Thanksgiving day of 1997 I was raking leaves outside and my then 2 yr old son was let outside. We had just moved into the place so I didn't figure he'd want to roam too far. I took my eye off him for maybe 10 seconds, looked up, he's in the street. Gave us quite a scare.
Sure, I physically forced him to do my will, but the older they get, the less I do this. Well, God made everything, including us, and every living thing He made has the potential to change in different ways, and He doesn't force His will on us or nature all the time. Is He capable of it? Sure, but it's His prerogative to get involved or not just like it's my prerogative to get involved with my own kids or not.
No, I can't prove the God I believe in exists, but neither can you prove He doesn't.
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George Aar
So John,
Are you saying then, that if your son had been a little older you'd have let him get run over?
No, I wouldn't think so.
Yet Almighty God can sit on the sidelines while HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people get slaughtered and just shrug His shoulders? Yeah, He sure loves us. (Damn, kinda makes God sound like an abusive father - "He punishes me sometimes 'cause I know I've been bad, but I know he really loves me!)
And no, money is not the equivalent of faith. I believe rather strongly in the laws of physics, but that's about all. Rich nations like the U.S. get a free pass when it comes to a lot of the world's ills, no doubt. Infant mortality, injuries, industrial and civic safety, communicable diseases, health care in general, all give the west a tremendous advantage over the third world. But is that due to God blessing us, or is it just the way things played out?
In any game there's going to be some winners and some losers, and a whole lot somewhere in between. You can influence the outcome to a greater or lesser degree by your own actions, and there's also an element of luck in anything.
But appealing to some invisible, anonymous god has never seemed to have any tangible effect on anything I'm aware of.
Oh, and BTW, I can't disprove the existence of Spiderman either...
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