I tell you, the mind manipulation in these groups is bad enough, but this has also been educational for me as far as learing about illegal pyramids/ponzi schemes.
It seems that the FTC's guidelines of what to watch for with bad MLM's, (illegal pyramids) Quixtar has red flags for almost everything I've seen and heard.
Unbelievable that they are in business. I guess the old adage rings true, "Consumer Beware!" The law/government can't protect you against everything. Education and awareness are still your best recourse.
So good to see you! I looked at MLMs for a while and found several watchdog websites that give you the lowdown on the groups, what they do and who the leaders are and which MLM they bailed out of before joining the current one. It appears to be one big incestuous group of people heading most of the more successful ones (gee, kinda like TWI and the offshoots...)
They use a lot of the same tactics, as you have already noted and I guess some of us don't recognize the bad from TWI well enough to avoid it in non-religious groups. How sad.
I wonder if Steve Hassan's book about Freedom of Mind and appealing to the "authentic self" of the woman would help, if you want to get that involved, that is. I know I've had friends approach me and it is such an insult that they look at me as a "prospect" instead of just a friend. It always ends up putting a strain on the relationship (gee - isn't that what WE did in TWI? --> GAWD, I hate facing that fact)
HI Belle! Yeah I've looked through a lot of those sites too. It seems there are literally HUNDREDS of sites out there warning people about these MLM's/Pyramids . You can't even up with them they keep popping up under a dozen different variations. But the fundamentals are the same it seems. Nothing new under the sun, ya know?
I also notice it seems the most popular ones deal specifically with Amway/Quixtar.
The cult book isn't a bad idea. That way it doesn't attack the MLM directly. I truly wonder though if I'm going to hear from her again since it was pretty clear I wasn't interested in the damn thing. HOWEVER, she may try again, you know?
dmiller. I'm afraid I have to show my ignorance for the millionth time on this board. I DON'T KNOW WHO TED PATRICK IS!!!
Rottie -- Ted Patrick was the *famous* deprogrammer who was hired by concerned families to get their loved ones out of cults. The "cultist" was lured away from the cult (for a week-end with family, etc.), and Ted would (allegedly) take them by force, and show them the *error of their ways* while holding them (allegedly) against their will for who knows how long.
Seemed to me he would be instrumental dealing with MLM's as well.
"...Ted Patrick was the *famous* deprogrammer who was hired by concerned families to get their loved ones out of cults."
There were many of those freaks, not just one.
Remember our fight on 'Conservatorship' Laws? Was that 1980? It took lots of guys in many states for there to be enough of an anti-cult movement to get those laws on the ballet in so many states.
One member of one of my twigs was captured and held by a De-Programmer for 3 days, in 1985.
I agree. Deprogrammers and the Cult Awareness Network, (out of Chicago) really overstepped the bounds of respecting peoples religious freedom.
People have the right to worship anything they want, how they want, and CAN was out of line with the way the were attacking the Way, for that matter. I do remember that.
The Way deserved to be taken to task for many things, but slamming into the non-trinitarian views (and other things like that) and labeling that as a cult really pi$$ed me off and still does to this day
I am glad this thread is going on......hate to steal it from you Rottiegal ;)-->
My boss came to work today, she had been at a nutrition conference over the weekend down in Tampa.
She came home with a book by L Ron Hubbard.......apparently, Scientology has become interested in nutrition, et all....and attended this same conference. They have been approaching various naturepaths, homeopaths, chiropractors, etc and offering to help boost their sales, and supply various types of "disciplines" with "healing info."
Of course, I held my tongue today, but she asked my for my input. Someone that was also at the conference has been emailing the conference attendees with CLAMBAKE.org....an anti Scientology site. I intend to present it to her along the lines of "Their baggage out weighs any benefit their mailing list could supply."
Any ideas that can help me present a case against accepting Scientology's help. THEY ARE POSSESSED, isn't a good idea in this particular situation.
ror
Rottie my girl......
You are aware that Scientology now owns CAN? They bought it so that they could attempt to control the bad publicity being lodged against Scientology.
Secondly, did you watch the Eukanuba this weekend? One of the patients of at our office was an entrent in the Rottweiller category. His mom was also in the running for all-time Rottie breeder. Recently, we had a french mastiff that lunged for my neck and completely forced me into an "out of body" moment while I dealt with it. Our patient the REALLY WELL BRED Rottie has completely healed me ..... regarding continuing to be able to work with large dogs like Rotties and other mastiffs :)--> Great breed you got there gal!!! :)-->
Well, I find it not uncommon for (former) Way members to get involved in MLM organizations. I was in 2, Amway of course, and another lesser known one, A. L. Williams, which sold life-insurance, and I think is now defunct, the founder, Art Williams I believe now writes books on becoming a millionaire.
With me, I found all those ideas complicated and I never really got the ball rolling, so I quit before I could ever really get started.
Rottie, I don't know what to tell you about those who are deeply involved in it. They must have some sort of success otherwise they would have not gotten so deeply involved.
Heck, the reason I left the Way was because simply it got boring. (the "Athletes of The Spirit" is what did it for me. I never saw such a production so out of touch with reality!) I was never really involved in that cult in the first place, I just attended the meetings, but was still my own person.
The basic premise of those MLMs is a lot like TWI, get more recruits. The more, the merrier. TWI really was into numbers, though they were the first to deny it! And with the internet age in full swing, MLM organizations are popping up like mushrooms! Daily I'm propositioned to join some phony organziaton. Hey, you can only fool me once, you can't fool me a second time!
Another (in)famous MLM is "stuffing envelopes", another trap that lured many TWI people.
Just like the song: "When will they ever learn?...."
Go ahead and Steal Away Radar! Although you may want to start your own thread on this subject. This might get lost. A lot of people may have sifted through this thread already and not return. So it might be better if you just start a new topic!
I know that the Scientologists own CAN. From what I understand, they were able to sue the original owners out of existence. Scientology has a lot of celebs with a lot of money that they use to their advantage. Many of these cults, IE that crap that Madonna is into now Kabalah or whatever, go after celebs knowing that is a draw for more rich and famous people. Celebs just love trendy stuff like that you know?
I know the Eukanuba dog show was on, Saturday was it? Or Sunday. I was taking Rottie Girl to Petsmart and just happened to walk into my living room, RIGHT AFTER they were annoucing the winners for the "working dog group" I thought I heard them announce a Rottweiler as a winner in that catagory but I wasn't sure! Rotts NEVER win dog shows it seems though. So I will catch that on a rerun.
Totally cool you know someone who had that rott! I betcha that Lady breeder you mentioned has some expensive pups there. I'd love to know her line of rotts.
I'm sorry about that French Mastif! Damn! That must have been scary! I fell in love with that breed ever since I saw Turner and Hooch! How the heck did a French Mastif get ahold of you like that? Thanks for the compliment on my rottie! I used to be afraid of these dogs, and now I'm teaching other people what a joy these dogs can be.
George: Thanks for the link. I do have skepdic in my fave places, but I missed that particular page. Interesting stuff aye?
CKnapp: I hear you. It's not uncommon from people leaving one kind of religion, to go out and try to find something almost exactly like it. I left the way, then 10 years later, started bouncing around fellowships with a local offshoot, then I got fed up with that, and started checking out CES, and then I thought WHOA! I think I just need to leave this whole thing behind me and clear my head for a bit. I'm becoming dependent on this stuff.
This is why I think this lady finds Quixtar so comforting.
As for some degree of success. Nada. She's been in it for 4 years and has continously put money into the business, with no profit. here is a short summery off of the page George linked to.
"At the turn of the century, the average Amway distributor earned about $700 a year in sales, but spent about $1,000 a year on Amway products. Distributors also have other expenses related to the business, e.g., telephone, gas, motivational meetings, and publicity material"
Here is another explanation from another anti-mlm page.
"The age-old technique of "con men" is to create "confidence" in some otherwise dumb idea by diversion of thought, bait, or force of personality. The victim gets confidence in a bogus plan, and, in exchange, the con man gets your money. MLMers are very high on confidence.
Since the brain inevitably intrudes itself into the delusion that an MLM could ever work, spirits drop and attitudes go sour. But this depressive state can itself be exploited. As doubts grow when the MLM does not do what recruits were first "con"fidenced to expect, then a further profit can be made keeping the confidence going against all common sense.
Thus, a parallel or "shadow" pyramid of motivational tapes, seminars, and videos emerges. These are a "must for success," and recruits are strong-armed into attending, buying, buying, and buying all the more. This motivational "shadow pyramid" further exploits the flagging recruits as they spiral inexorably into oversaturation and failure. The more they fail, the more "help" they need from those who are "successful" above them.
Well, ENOUGH OF MY RANTING! Sorry folks. I needed to get all this crap off my chest! Off to work now.
Hey. Lemme tell y'all about a new company known as Primerica. Primerica is a financial investment corporation designed to "help people with their finances". Yew ever heard of the rule of 72? Well, once you understand it, you are on your way to financial independance! That's rat! Primerica was once known as "A.L. Williams", which was once known as "The American Can Company". Anyhoo, once you get on board and get a sizeable downline goin on, yew are gonna be rich I tell ya! Yew kin retire, and just flat out live off yer downline!!, never work agin! That's rat! So jus "come on dowwn!" and let us show yew The Way to financial feedom here at Primerica coorporation.
Ya know just the other day, a friend of my cousin whose sister is related to a guy who is involved in Primerica, showed me a check that my cousins' friends' sisters' relative ( or however it all hooks together-don't matter really), showed me a check that this person had made for one single month from their downline in Primerica. That check was worth, waddya think? Ten grand? Fifteen grand? Twenty grand? No-No-No! A tousand times no. That check was worth $29,000.00 for only one months worth of "downline activity"! And they only been involved for three weeks!
So, yew know that you gotta get on board here before this "OPPERTUNITY OF A LIFETIME" slips from yer grasp.
And if yer interested, just contact me, El Montay Slim at this here e-mail address on my profile. You can't afford to not be involved!!
Johnny, what can I say except.... :D--> :D--> :D--> You absolutely cracked me up with that post. Rats right!
Techno, yeah, I'm beginning to think I will...if I hear from her again. Lovely sweet lady she is, but I'm beginning to wonder if she'll even want to bother with me anymore now that I've made it fairly clear that I'm not interested in "the biz"
In fact I just found out about some guy (former quixtar bigshot) through the news who has a website and a free downloadable e-book at www.merchantsofdeception.com who is compiling peoples testimonials, telling people to save all the motivational tapes, etc., because he plans on hitting the FTC BIGTIME with Amway/Quixtar violating federal standards set for a pyramid scheme. Should be interesting to see what happens, if anything.
But from now on I'm just going to be honest and tell anyone who's into this that "Ya know, there is a LOT of bad publicity out there about Amway/Quixtar, and I mean a LOT." Hey it's only fair if these people hit you with this "wonderful business opportunity" that you hit them back with what's out there about it.
And you're right, at least I could say that I warned them.
quote: I'm beginning to wonder if she'll even want to bother with me anymore now that I've made it fairly clear that I'm not interested in "the biz"
Looks like she was a good TWIt and is still practicing the doctrine she learned: "If you can't get anything out of them then move on and quit wasting your time."
Yeah Belle and that's exactly what The Way, err......AM-WAY is teaching these people too. "Don't waste your time with DE-Edifiers, Only Edifiers." I kid you not. Geez, did these people share the same dictionary?
Rats Right! LOL. Sorry, now I can't get that out of my mind. Reminds me of Scooby Doo.
Anna and I were involved with Amway way back in the early 1980s (pre TWI) when I was stationed at Camp Lejeune, NC (got into it there) and 29 Palms, CA (Anna ran the business from her parents home in Maryland until I got off of active duty).
We tried everything we knew/were told to get our "business" working both with and without a "downline", as it was called. We even attended one of those weekend conventions (cost at that time was $110.00 for the both of us - That would be around $700 to $800 in today's dollars). What we found out at that convention was that we had stumbled on some sort of religious cult based loosely on the Southern Baptist religion (we were good Roman Catholics at the time). The religious part of it (we were told) was strictly the work of the "upline" and had nothing to do with Amway itself. Our "upline" were Jacksonville businessman Bill Britt (at the time a "Direct Distributor"), and his "Diamond Direct Distributor" (the guy running the show) was Mickey Hamlet.
One thing that I hated about distributing products for Amway was that they didn't let you advertise, or open a store (or store front) to sell the products. They were adament about cold calling people, keeping DETAILED customer lists, annoying your family, friends, neighbors, and so on to get them to a "plan" meeting. They also told us NOT to mention that it was an Amway meeting, but to string them along until they came to a meeting.
It took Anna and I a while to figure it out, but it turns out that holding those conventions is really where the big money is - NOT in the 10 member downline or the product sales. Of course, you're not allowed to hold a convention unless you're at least a "Ruby Direct Distributor" (Amway is big on gemstones).
Another thing we found (the hard way) is that the IRS is VERY strict with MLM companies. We were audited in 1986 and the IRS wanted to see every S-1 form we ever filed, even previous to 1985 which was the year for which we were being audited. Fortunately, Anna kept good records (back then). The reason that the IRS agent gave for needing to see the forms was that the IRS, in general, regards such businesses as tax shelter businesses and that many of their distributors were/are regarded as trained tax evaders. I can see why that is since one of our supplemental training tapes dealt with ways to get around income taxes by using home office expenses, household expenses, business expenses, and credit card interest (you could do credit card interest back then, but not now), among other things. We quit Amway after the audit, mostly because we weren't making much at it and we had deducted a lot of expenses, which was what triggered the audit in the first place.
I'd definitely be very cautious of any MLM company that is like this.
Steve: Thanks for sharing that experience. It seems like nothing has changed from your experience in the early 80s.
When I went to that conference with that lady, she picked up her tickets from some desk, and I saw envelopes that were marked different prices. She picked up her ticket from an envelope marked 175 dollars I believe. That did not include the room (she drove home that night) or the cost of the dinner the following evening. She paid 30 bucks for that separately.
I have no idea whether or not she paid for me as a guest. If she did she was out of money. I stayed for only that Friday night and did not come back the following day as planned. That would have meant leaving at 6am from her home, (after not getting back until 1am) being there at 8am for the breakfast, then a full day of meetings and seminars till dinner at about 7pm. Then they were having a pizza party at 11:30pm.
Talk about sleep deprivation! I would have been sacking out in the lobby and probably had security called on me.
Anyway you would think that if they wanted people to come to these "motivational seminars" they would have them for free, or at least for a nominal fee to pay for the room. But I believe these "Diamonds" get a big fat speakers fee to get up in their rented suits and borrowed jewelry to spew their BS about how big they made it in the biz and how "YOU CAN TOO!"
As far as the audit, I read some recent newspaper article where some quixtar people cannot further claim there business losses on Quixtar. They had good paying regular day jobs and the IRS said "no more free party with Quixtar" So maybe that will eventually be the undoing of the company.
How these people can sleep at night is beyond me.
PS. Seems like I remember reading somewhere that Bill Britt was recently involved in some minor scandle. Regarding shady investments, and his mistress kicking him out of her house and calling 911.
People tell you exactly what they are, when they say they are not that.
If a leader of a group tells you they are not a cult, then they are a cult.
VPW said TWI was not a cult.
One of the people in Market America said it's not a cult.
You be the judge.
One other thing, Amway considers itself a "motivational orginization" (spelling?) what they aren't a sales company? Talk about bait and switch. Zig Ziglar one of the biggest names in motivational speakers had something called the "Zig Ziglar Network" it was an MLM it fell flat on it's foot many years ago. So if MLM is a legitamate business model why is their track record for failure higher then traditional business?
Good points Seth. Especially about the part, You know when they say their not..... If you think about it it's only the ones who ARE who "prostesteth to much" How true. Legit places have no reasons to be so self defensive. And on Quixtar's own web page they have a part "Quixtar answers tough questions."
Right there they have their spins on all the things they've been accused of. Of course they're not a cult, of course they're not a pyramid. Of course they have lawsuits buts that's part of the business. blah blah BLECH.
I remember The Way pushing that Zigler book "See you at the top" Years ago. He's been one of Amways top speakers too, I know. For some reason I'm not surprised he tried his own MLM. I guess I'm just being cynical (again) but there is something about that guy that's a little too brainwashey for my taste
I got into selling Discovery Toys for three years in the early '90's when my daughter was little.
You couldn't make any money unless you did a lot of parties (2 - 3 a wk) and recruited people. I hated making phone calls to ask people to hostess a party and I only recruited 2 people and they didn't do much.
Several times a year, Discovery Toys came out with new "kits" with the new toys to sell at parties. They didn't "make" you buy them you still had to if you wanted to display the latest toys.
When I did a party I lugged crates of my toys to my car, drove to a house I'd never been to before, lugged the toys into someone's living room, set them up, did my spiel, took orders, packed up the toys and lugged them back to my car, and back into my home. Then there was the paperwork afterward, tallying up the order for HQ, and sending it in. Then after depositing the checks and paying for the order, the 20% difference was mine.
Ah, but if you had a certain number of RECRUITS under you, your commission was BIGGER, and you got a cut of their sales. So you had to recruit to succeed.
In three years, I did not turn a profit. I always filed a Schedule C and took a loss.
But I kept hearing from people over me how great it was and how money could be made and how you had freedom from a 9-5 job etc. The top person in the area pulled in a $10,000 check around Christmas time because she was at the TOP.
Another thing was, after scheduling a party, about 50% of the hostesses would cancel. One time I did a party and this chick came so she could watch me as part of her training. She ended up stealing my booking for a party from that party!
The only good thing is that my kid had lots of toys to play with from all the kits I bought. And she learned the word "discontinued" at the age of 3 because if the toy was discontinued it was HERS.
After three years I threw in the towel. Never again.
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TOMMYZ
Hi Rottie !
Glad to see you back !
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RottieGrrrl
HI TOMMIE! Yeah it's nice to be back at GS.
I tell you, the mind manipulation in these groups is bad enough, but this has also been educational for me as far as learing about illegal pyramids/ponzi schemes.
It seems that the FTC's guidelines of what to watch for with bad MLM's, (illegal pyramids) Quixtar has red flags for almost everything I've seen and heard.
Unbelievable that they are in business. I guess the old adage rings true, "Consumer Beware!" The law/government can't protect you against everything. Education and awareness are still your best recourse.
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Belle
(((((RottieGrrrl)))))
So good to see you! I looked at MLMs for a while and found several watchdog websites that give you the lowdown on the groups, what they do and who the leaders are and which MLM they bailed out of before joining the current one. It appears to be one big incestuous group of people heading most of the more successful ones (gee, kinda like TWI and the offshoots...)
They use a lot of the same tactics, as you have already noted and I guess some of us don't recognize the bad from TWI well enough to avoid it in non-religious groups. How sad.
I wonder if Steve Hassan's book about Freedom of Mind and appealing to the "authentic self" of the woman would help, if you want to get that involved, that is. I know I've had friends approach me and it is such an insult that they look at me as a "prospect" instead of just a friend. It always ends up putting a strain on the relationship (gee - isn't that what WE did in TWI?
--> GAWD, I hate facing that fact)
Good to read you! I hope you stick around.
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dmiller
Call Ted Patrick.
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RottieGrrrl
HI Belle! Yeah I've looked through a lot of those sites too. It seems there are literally HUNDREDS of sites out there warning people about these MLM's/Pyramids . You can't even up with them they keep popping up under a dozen different variations. But the fundamentals are the same it seems. Nothing new under the sun, ya know?
I also notice it seems the most popular ones deal specifically with Amway/Quixtar.
The cult book isn't a bad idea. That way it doesn't attack the MLM directly. I truly wonder though if I'm going to hear from her again since it was pretty clear I wasn't interested in the damn thing. HOWEVER, she may try again, you know?
dmiller. I'm afraid I have to show my ignorance for the millionth time on this board. I DON'T KNOW WHO TED PATRICK IS!!!
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dmiller
Rottie -- Ted Patrick was the *famous* deprogrammer who was hired by concerned families to get their loved ones out of cults. The "cultist" was lured away from the cult (for a week-end with family, etc.), and Ted would (allegedly) take them by force, and show them the *error of their ways* while holding them (allegedly) against their will for who knows how long.
Seemed to me he would be instrumental dealing with MLM's as well.
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RottieGrrrl
OH YEAH! I do kind of remember stories about that guy. Wonder what he's up to now? That WOULD be good for MLM'ers!
:)-->
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Galen
dmiller:
"...Ted Patrick was the *famous* deprogrammer who was hired by concerned families to get their loved ones out of cults."
There were many of those freaks, not just one.
Remember our fight on 'Conservatorship' Laws? Was that 1980? It took lots of guys in many states for there to be enough of an anti-cult movement to get those laws on the ballet in so many states.
One member of one of my twigs was captured and held by a De-Programmer for 3 days, in 1985.
:-)
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excathedra
i don't know if deprogrammers are a good thing
people tend to figure things out
well maybe not
when it comes to my own loved ones, i just love them. what else can i really do ?
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RottieGrrrl
I agree. Deprogrammers and the Cult Awareness Network, (out of Chicago) really overstepped the bounds of respecting peoples religious freedom.
People have the right to worship anything they want, how they want, and CAN was out of line with the way the were attacking the Way, for that matter. I do remember that.
The Way deserved to be taken to task for many things, but slamming into the non-trinitarian views (and other things like that) and labeling that as a cult really pi$$ed me off and still does to this day
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Radar OReilly
I am glad this thread is going on......hate to steal it from you Rottiegal
;)-->
My boss came to work today, she had been at a nutrition conference over the weekend down in Tampa.
She came home with a book by L Ron Hubbard.......apparently, Scientology has become interested in nutrition, et all....and attended this same conference. They have been approaching various naturepaths, homeopaths, chiropractors, etc and offering to help boost their sales, and supply various types of "disciplines" with "healing info."
Of course, I held my tongue today, but she asked my for my input. Someone that was also at the conference has been emailing the conference attendees with CLAMBAKE.org....an anti Scientology site. I intend to present it to her along the lines of "Their baggage out weighs any benefit their mailing list could supply."
Any ideas that can help me present a case against accepting Scientology's help. THEY ARE POSSESSED, isn't a good idea in this particular situation.
ror
Rottie my girl......
You are aware that Scientology now owns CAN? They bought it so that they could attempt to control the bad publicity being lodged against Scientology.
Secondly, did you watch the Eukanuba this weekend? One of the patients of at our office was an entrent in the Rottweiller category. His mom was also in the running for all-time Rottie breeder. Recently, we had a french mastiff that lunged for my neck and completely forced me into an "out of body" moment while I dealt with it. Our patient the REALLY WELL BRED Rottie has completely healed me ..... regarding continuing to be able to work with large dogs like Rotties and other mastiffs
:)--> Great breed you got there gal!!! 
:)-->
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George Aar
Rottiegirl,
If you haven't had enough of MLM advice yet, you might wanta read this:
http://skepdic.com/mlm.html
Quite a list of additional reading there too...
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CKnapp3
Welcome back Rottie,
Well, I find it not uncommon for (former) Way members to get involved in MLM organizations. I was in 2, Amway of course, and another lesser known one, A. L. Williams, which sold life-insurance, and I think is now defunct, the founder, Art Williams I believe now writes books on becoming a millionaire.
With me, I found all those ideas complicated and I never really got the ball rolling, so I quit before I could ever really get started.
Rottie, I don't know what to tell you about those who are deeply involved in it. They must have some sort of success otherwise they would have not gotten so deeply involved.
Heck, the reason I left the Way was because simply it got boring. (the "Athletes of The Spirit" is what did it for me. I never saw such a production so out of touch with reality!) I was never really involved in that cult in the first place, I just attended the meetings, but was still my own person.
The basic premise of those MLMs is a lot like TWI, get more recruits. The more, the merrier. TWI really was into numbers, though they were the first to deny it! And with the internet age in full swing, MLM organizations are popping up like mushrooms! Daily I'm propositioned to join some phony organziaton. Hey, you can only fool me once, you can't fool me a second time!
Another (in)famous MLM is "stuffing envelopes", another trap that lured many TWI people.
Just like the song: "When will they ever learn?...."
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RottieGrrrl
Go ahead and Steal Away Radar! Although you may want to start your own thread on this subject. This might get lost. A lot of people may have sifted through this thread already and not return. So it might be better if you just start a new topic!
I know that the Scientologists own CAN. From what I understand, they were able to sue the original owners out of existence. Scientology has a lot of celebs with a lot of money that they use to their advantage. Many of these cults, IE that crap that Madonna is into now Kabalah or whatever, go after celebs knowing that is a draw for more rich and famous people. Celebs just love trendy stuff like that you know?
I know the Eukanuba dog show was on, Saturday was it? Or Sunday. I was taking Rottie Girl to Petsmart and just happened to walk into my living room, RIGHT AFTER they were annoucing the winners for the "working dog group" I thought I heard them announce a Rottweiler as a winner in that catagory but I wasn't sure! Rotts NEVER win dog shows it seems though. So I will catch that on a rerun.
Totally cool you know someone who had that rott! I betcha that Lady breeder you mentioned has some expensive pups there. I'd love to know her line of rotts.
I'm sorry about that French Mastif! Damn! That must have been scary! I fell in love with that breed ever since I saw Turner and Hooch! How the heck did a French Mastif get ahold of you like that? Thanks for the compliment on my rottie! I used to be afraid of these dogs, and now I'm teaching other people what a joy these dogs can be.
George: Thanks for the link. I do have skepdic in my fave places, but I missed that particular page. Interesting stuff aye?
CKnapp: I hear you. It's not uncommon from people leaving one kind of religion, to go out and try to find something almost exactly like it. I left the way, then 10 years later, started bouncing around fellowships with a local offshoot, then I got fed up with that, and started checking out CES, and then I thought WHOA! I think I just need to leave this whole thing behind me and clear my head for a bit. I'm becoming dependent on this stuff.
This is why I think this lady finds Quixtar so comforting.
As for some degree of success. Nada. She's been in it for 4 years and has continously put money into the business, with no profit. here is a short summery off of the page George linked to.
"At the turn of the century, the average Amway distributor earned about $700 a year in sales, but spent about $1,000 a year on Amway products. Distributors also have other expenses related to the business, e.g., telephone, gas, motivational meetings, and publicity material"
Here is another explanation from another anti-mlm page.
"The age-old technique of "con men" is to create "confidence" in some otherwise dumb idea by diversion of thought, bait, or force of personality. The victim gets confidence in a bogus plan, and, in exchange, the con man gets your money. MLMers are very high on confidence.
Since the brain inevitably intrudes itself into the delusion that an MLM could ever work, spirits drop and attitudes go sour. But this depressive state can itself be exploited. As doubts grow when the MLM does not do what recruits were first "con"fidenced to expect, then a further profit can be made keeping the confidence going against all common sense.
Thus, a parallel or "shadow" pyramid of motivational tapes, seminars, and videos emerges. These are a "must for success," and recruits are strong-armed into attending, buying, buying, and buying all the more. This motivational "shadow pyramid" further exploits the flagging recruits as they spiral inexorably into oversaturation and failure. The more they fail, the more "help" they need from those who are "successful" above them.
Well, ENOUGH OF MY RANTING! Sorry folks. I needed to get all this crap off my chest! Off to work now.
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J0nny Ling0
Hey. Lemme tell y'all about a new company known as Primerica. Primerica is a financial investment corporation designed to "help people with their finances". Yew ever heard of the rule of 72? Well, once you understand it, you are on your way to financial independance! That's rat! Primerica was once known as "A.L. Williams", which was once known as "The American Can Company". Anyhoo, once you get on board and get a sizeable downline goin on, yew are gonna be rich I tell ya! Yew kin retire, and just flat out live off yer downline!!, never work agin! That's rat! So jus "come on dowwn!" and let us show yew The Way to financial feedom here at Primerica coorporation.
Ya know just the other day, a friend of my cousin whose sister is related to a guy who is involved in Primerica, showed me a check that my cousins' friends' sisters' relative ( or however it all hooks together-don't matter really), showed me a check that this person had made for one single month from their downline in Primerica. That check was worth, waddya think? Ten grand? Fifteen grand? Twenty grand? No-No-No! A tousand times no. That check was worth $29,000.00 for only one months worth of "downline activity"! And they only been involved for three weeks!
So, yew know that you gotta get on board here before this "OPPERTUNITY OF A LIFETIME" slips from yer grasp.
And if yer interested, just contact me, El Montay Slim at this here e-mail address on my profile. You can't afford to not be involved!!
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Technobyte
Welcome back Rottie! I lurk most of the time, and I was wondering what happened to you.
My advise - Just tell whomever this is the truth.
If they want to listen, they will.
If they don't listen, then neither you nor they can say that you didn't try to warn 'em.
Technobyte
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RottieGrrrl
Johnny, what can I say except....
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> You absolutely cracked me up with that post. Rats right!
Techno, yeah, I'm beginning to think I will...if I hear from her again. Lovely sweet lady she is, but I'm beginning to wonder if she'll even want to bother with me anymore now that I've made it fairly clear that I'm not interested in "the biz"
In fact I just found out about some guy (former quixtar bigshot) through the news who has a website and a free downloadable e-book at www.merchantsofdeception.com who is compiling peoples testimonials, telling people to save all the motivational tapes, etc., because he plans on hitting the FTC BIGTIME with Amway/Quixtar violating federal standards set for a pyramid scheme. Should be interesting to see what happens, if anything.
But from now on I'm just going to be honest and tell anyone who's into this that "Ya know, there is a LOT of bad publicity out there about Amway/Quixtar, and I mean a LOT." Hey it's only fair if these people hit you with this "wonderful business opportunity" that you hit them back with what's out there about it.
And you're right, at least I could say that I warned them.
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Belle
Looks like she was a good TWIt and is still practicing the doctrine she learned: "If you can't get anything out of them then move on and quit wasting your time."
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RottieGrrrl
Yeah Belle and that's exactly what The Way, err......AM-WAY is teaching these people too. "Don't waste your time with DE-Edifiers, Only Edifiers." I kid you not. Geez, did these people share the same dictionary?
Rats Right! LOL. Sorry, now I can't get that out of my mind. Reminds me of Scooby Doo.
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Steve Swenton
Hi Rottie Girl!!!
Anna and I were involved with Amway way back in the early 1980s (pre TWI) when I was stationed at Camp Lejeune, NC (got into it there) and 29 Palms, CA (Anna ran the business from her parents home in Maryland until I got off of active duty).
We tried everything we knew/were told to get our "business" working both with and without a "downline", as it was called. We even attended one of those weekend conventions (cost at that time was $110.00 for the both of us - That would be around $700 to $800 in today's dollars). What we found out at that convention was that we had stumbled on some sort of religious cult based loosely on the Southern Baptist religion (we were good Roman Catholics at the time). The religious part of it (we were told) was strictly the work of the "upline" and had nothing to do with Amway itself. Our "upline" were Jacksonville businessman Bill Britt (at the time a "Direct Distributor"), and his "Diamond Direct Distributor" (the guy running the show) was Mickey Hamlet.
One thing that I hated about distributing products for Amway was that they didn't let you advertise, or open a store (or store front) to sell the products. They were adament about cold calling people, keeping DETAILED customer lists, annoying your family, friends, neighbors, and so on to get them to a "plan" meeting. They also told us NOT to mention that it was an Amway meeting, but to string them along until they came to a meeting.
It took Anna and I a while to figure it out, but it turns out that holding those conventions is really where the big money is - NOT in the 10 member downline or the product sales. Of course, you're not allowed to hold a convention unless you're at least a "Ruby Direct Distributor" (Amway is big on gemstones).
Another thing we found (the hard way) is that the IRS is VERY strict with MLM companies. We were audited in 1986 and the IRS wanted to see every S-1 form we ever filed, even previous to 1985 which was the year for which we were being audited. Fortunately, Anna kept good records (back then). The reason that the IRS agent gave for needing to see the forms was that the IRS, in general, regards such businesses as tax shelter businesses and that many of their distributors were/are regarded as trained tax evaders. I can see why that is since one of our supplemental training tapes dealt with ways to get around income taxes by using home office expenses, household expenses, business expenses, and credit card interest (you could do credit card interest back then, but not now), among other things. We quit Amway after the audit, mostly because we weren't making much at it and we had deducted a lot of expenses, which was what triggered the audit in the first place.
I'd definitely be very cautious of any MLM company that is like this.
Just my experience...
Steve.
¥
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RottieGrrrl
Steve: Thanks for sharing that experience. It seems like nothing has changed from your experience in the early 80s.
When I went to that conference with that lady, she picked up her tickets from some desk, and I saw envelopes that were marked different prices. She picked up her ticket from an envelope marked 175 dollars I believe. That did not include the room (she drove home that night) or the cost of the dinner the following evening. She paid 30 bucks for that separately.
I have no idea whether or not she paid for me as a guest. If she did she was out of money. I stayed for only that Friday night and did not come back the following day as planned. That would have meant leaving at 6am from her home, (after not getting back until 1am) being there at 8am for the breakfast, then a full day of meetings and seminars till dinner at about 7pm. Then they were having a pizza party at 11:30pm.
Talk about sleep deprivation! I would have been sacking out in the lobby and probably had security called on me.
Anyway you would think that if they wanted people to come to these "motivational seminars" they would have them for free, or at least for a nominal fee to pay for the room. But I believe these "Diamonds" get a big fat speakers fee to get up in their rented suits and borrowed jewelry to spew their BS about how big they made it in the biz and how "YOU CAN TOO!"
As far as the audit, I read some recent newspaper article where some quixtar people cannot further claim there business losses on Quixtar. They had good paying regular day jobs and the IRS said "no more free party with Quixtar" So maybe that will eventually be the undoing of the company.
How these people can sleep at night is beyond me.
PS. Seems like I remember reading somewhere that Bill Britt was recently involved in some minor scandle. Regarding shady investments, and his mistress kicking him out of her house and calling 911.
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Seth R.
People tell you exactly what they are, when they say they are not that.
If a leader of a group tells you they are not a cult, then they are a cult.
VPW said TWI was not a cult.
One of the people in Market America said it's not a cult.
You be the judge.
One other thing, Amway considers itself a "motivational orginization" (spelling?) what they aren't a sales company? Talk about bait and switch. Zig Ziglar one of the biggest names in motivational speakers had something called the "Zig Ziglar Network" it was an MLM it fell flat on it's foot many years ago. So if MLM is a legitamate business model why is their track record for failure higher then traditional business?
Seth
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RottieGrrrl
Good points Seth. Especially about the part, You know when they say their not..... If you think about it it's only the ones who ARE who "prostesteth to much" How true. Legit places have no reasons to be so self defensive. And on Quixtar's own web page they have a part "Quixtar answers tough questions."
Right there they have their spins on all the things they've been accused of. Of course they're not a cult, of course they're not a pyramid. Of course they have lawsuits buts that's part of the business. blah blah BLECH.
I remember The Way pushing that Zigler book "See you at the top" Years ago. He's been one of Amways top speakers too, I know. For some reason I'm not surprised he tried his own MLM. I guess I'm just being cynical (again) but there is something about that guy that's a little too brainwashey for my taste
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outandabout
I got into selling Discovery Toys for three years in the early '90's when my daughter was little.
You couldn't make any money unless you did a lot of parties (2 - 3 a wk) and recruited people. I hated making phone calls to ask people to hostess a party and I only recruited 2 people and they didn't do much.
Several times a year, Discovery Toys came out with new "kits" with the new toys to sell at parties. They didn't "make" you buy them you still had to if you wanted to display the latest toys.
When I did a party I lugged crates of my toys to my car, drove to a house I'd never been to before, lugged the toys into someone's living room, set them up, did my spiel, took orders, packed up the toys and lugged them back to my car, and back into my home. Then there was the paperwork afterward, tallying up the order for HQ, and sending it in. Then after depositing the checks and paying for the order, the 20% difference was mine.
Ah, but if you had a certain number of RECRUITS under you, your commission was BIGGER, and you got a cut of their sales. So you had to recruit to succeed.
In three years, I did not turn a profit. I always filed a Schedule C and took a loss.
But I kept hearing from people over me how great it was and how money could be made and how you had freedom from a 9-5 job etc. The top person in the area pulled in a $10,000 check around Christmas time because she was at the TOP.
Another thing was, after scheduling a party, about 50% of the hostesses would cancel. One time I did a party and this chick came so she could watch me as part of her training. She ended up stealing my booking for a party from that party!
The only good thing is that my kid had lots of toys to play with from all the kits I bought. And she learned the word "discontinued" at the age of 3 because if the toy was discontinued it was HERS.
After three years I threw in the towel. Never again.
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