it is my sincere belief that any man or woman that must resort to violence with his *loved ones* to solve a problem (outside of direct danger to oneself or others) is a coward be they male or female
As far as I'm aware, schizophrenia cannot be treated only by therapy. There has to be medication. Therapy is really helpful if it can convince the patient to stay on their medication, to understand their illness and accept the fact that they need the meds...cuz it tends to get worse over time. What was mild at age twenty could be very bizarre a decade later. ALso gets worse under stressful conditions.
Schizophrenia (Anderea was treated for schizophrenia)is way beyond being emotionally screwed up. It is a brain that makes its own, false, reality. It can happen to someone who was once emotionally healthy, just like diabetes can affect a child who was once physically healthy.
Under the onslaught of the illness, emotional health doesn't hold up real well, which is where therapy can help. Therapy can not make them not schizophrenic. Medication helps with the delusions(false reality) and hallucinations(seeing, hearing, feeling things that aren't happening), but it doen't cure them.
You could of toruted me to death and I wound't have told you the truth had my lfe depemded on in it
===============================================
Amen and Amen. That was my life too, after a few years in TWI, once I put all the puzzle together, realized what was what and realized what I had to do to keep my marriage and
baby(s).
It's a very scary place to be, very lonely, very depressing, very disheartening.
Actually, I'm glad you brought this up. You've been married. You know that reading posts on a website is quite different than being in the same living space with someone and hearing the tone of their voice.
I hope you understand that, since you and I have never met (as far as I know, since I don't know your real name) the analogy I presented was the best that I could come up with. The point was to illustrate how stupid your solution to annoyance was. And yes, I was married, for nineteen years, but I'll get back to that in a minute.
quote:How about this? If a MAN speaks non stop and drives you up a wall deliberately, then that same man deserves to get clocked, too...But why, Oak, do you assign this celestial value to women but not to men. We all need to get put in our place; otherwise we could become like LCM. Don't you think he should have gotten clocked at some point in time? Not by a judge's ruling or a BOD decision, but by a fist!
Johniam: Let me clarify my position. I am not against violence as a response to violence, but I am opposed to violence as a response to annoyance.
There were many times during my marriage when I did not want to hear what my wife had to say, there were many times when I felt that she was very annoying and wished that permanent muteness would befall her. Never during any of those times was I even tempted to strike her.
Do I put women on a pedestal and refrain from hitting them when I would "clock" a man for the same infraction?
Johniam, I have learned how to both defend myself and do damage to others if necessary. I know some very quick and effective ways to "clock" people that would leave them "eating" through a straw among other things. Maybe my training has given me a better appreciation for the consequenses of violence than you have. Maybe my own ethics are such that I believe that violence is the last refuge of the idiot.
I can't think of any situation where I would hit anyone for simply annoying me, even if it were purposeful.
Hitting someone because their words bite you is to admit that you are outmatched intellectually, that you have no control over your emotions, that you are so much of an idiot that the only solution that you can come up with is to shut them up by hitting them.
So those who knew of Andrea's inability and capability share some of the culpability,thus accountability for the drownings that were her responsibility,and if guilty,with civility sent to the proper facility....
quote:Yeah, as I undertand it, oldies, some of em understood the unique responsibilities required of one functioning at such a high area of spiritual responsibility....there in lay their value.
What a shameless personal attack against someone you never met, someone who has done you no harm whatever, and someone who was just trying to do the will of God, like yourself. Bravo Rascal. What a bastion of love and kindness now that you're out of twi.
quote:What would you call the Corp/VPW taught practice of getting a female believer (preferably young and nubile) to 'meet the Man of God's needs' ...
Garth, whatever you choose to call this, I wouldn't call it widespread female gender bias, all across the ministry. Heck 99% of folks didn't even know this stuff was happening. Highlighting a few cases and saying its equal to widespread abuse, is not being fair or accurate with the facts. But that's what happens when one focuses only on the sins of people. You shant hear anything else.
quote:Oh, but your experience makes others' experiences and opinions less valid, or as you would say "preposterous".
Oakspear, others opinions are definitely valid! But blanket false accusations like there was widespread female gender bias in twi, should be challenged.
BTW, if what you're saying is really true, that there was widespread female gender abuse in twi, why oh why did you hang around for so long, or even go back? You had the chance at any time to leave, thank you very much. But you hung around, even with all this female abuse going on? and went back later on?
Gag me Oakspear.
quote:John n oldies, THAT attitude is a shining example of what years of participation in twi develops within one....It ain`t pretty....It ain`t christian, and it certainly ain`t right, not by a long shot.
The pot calling the kettle black.
And who gives you the freedom in Christ to perpetually engage in bitterness, wrath, anger, malice and evil speaking? My bible says put that stuff away. Oh, but you're straighting folks out on how we Christians ought to think about our brothers and sisters in twi.
The pot calling the kettle black.
quote:guffaw, om we already know that you are not 'all' there.....if you were in twi and was involved it was there right before your face...for a guy I guess, that so believed it really put your shoulders back and head up high to have the man totally in charge, huh, om?
Vickles, there were just as many women in charge as men. Where have you been? I had just as many female coordinators during my stint, as males. IF there were this female gender bias you so love to embrace, why were fems allowed to runs twigs, branches, limbs? Teach classes and coordinate. Twi wouldn't have put women IN CHARGE of things, if they were thought of as inferior, or second class.
And now back to your regularly scheduled thread...
quote:So those who knew of Andrea's inability and capability ...
Simon, I think you'd have a point if folks knew she was capable of murdering her 5 children. But who knew that?
johniam says..."Why should they learn this by getting beat up on the elementary school playground or by getting sent to jail when they can learn it in the "comfort" of their home and family."
OK, I have a theory...I think johniam is totally goofing on us...he's seeing how many buttons he can push by saying these outrageous things! This is his way of having fun...first, he says the most outrageous and stupid thing he can think of, and then waits for our responses! He is probably drinking a cold beer and laughing his foot off as he reads the posts!...Am I right? C'mon fess up...I'm on to you now...nobody could possibly suggest that it's better to beat your child at home to teach him a lesson, than to have them get beat at school to learn the lesson..I think you got carried away with your own sense of humor...C'mon now, fess up and we'll all laugh together...
UH, I thought that as well upon reading his posts.
But that's a pretty goldang sick sense of humor, if that is the case.
quote: Vickles, there were just as many women in charge as men. Where have you been? I had just as many female coordinators during my stint, as males. IF there were this female gender bias you so love to embrace, why were fems allowed to runs twigs, branches, limbs? Teach classes and coordinate. Twi wouldn't have put women IN CHARGE of things, if they were thought of as inferior, or second class.
Ya know, I would have to say that there is some merit to this statement. My WOW family coordinator was a gal. And the WOW branch leader was a Sixth Corps woman. One branch leader was a Revrend woman, and I remember having to explain to other Christians that I met that it was perfectly acceptable to God for a woman to be a leader and clergy and that we did it that way in The Way because God doesn't care about all of that. Also, I remember that there was a fair amount of female WOW rovers that were women. I remember that, as a matter of fact, there was a certain type of "single tough gal" type gals that enjoyed roving the USA and teaching the Word to the WOWs. Lynn Perrigo for one, Stacy Bowen for another, Patti Bass, and another gal named Olson. Oh, and then there was Rev Barbara Lally and Rev Pat Lynn, very prominent females.
So, I think there is merit to what Oldiesman said in the above quote.
p.s.
Also:
Rev. Linda MacDuffy, (Rev?) Marcia Faulk, Mrs. Howard Allen (department head coordinator), Dorothy Owens (Housekeeping at HQ I think), Rev. Rosalie (Head of University of Life and one of the big coordinators of PFAL '77), Rev. Ellen Somebody of the 4th Corps (married Tim Warga), Rev Susan Bouldin, Rev Kathy Ralston, Christy Sargeant (a tough one there, look out!), (Rev?) Donna Martindale, Rev Claudettee Royal, Elena Whiteside, and I know there were others.
quote: OK, I have a theory...I think johniam is totally goofing on us...he's seeing how many buttons he can push by saying these outrageous things! This is his way of having fun...first, he says the most outrageous and stupid thing he can think of, and then waits for our responses! He is probably drinking a cold beer and laughing his foot off as he reads the posts!...Am I right? C'mon fess up...I'm on to you now...nobody could possibly suggest that it's better to beat your child at home to teach him a lesson, than to have them get beat at school to learn the lesson..I think you got carried away with your own sense of humor...C'mon now, fess up and we'll all laugh together...
Nothing to fess up to; when I post it's for real other than obvious sarcasm. I am open to the responses I get. That's the biggest benefit to letter writing as opposed to direct communication. Some things need to be communicated one on one. Other times it's really better to be able to read something at your convenience more than once if necessary and process what is written in its own time.
Sometimes I read posts and get upset, only to re read it a day or so later and not be upset. Sure, if you say you've re read all my posts 3 times and you still think I'm nuts, OK.
As I said, getting physical should be a last resort, not a primary strategy. All the other things I listed as last resorts (spankings, war, bankruptcy, the death penalty, and the lake of fire) can be used as primary strategies and the results are bad. Sure, there are men whose primary strategy is physical threats and actions to keep his wife and kids constantly terrorized and "in line". I do not advocate this. Thats not a family, that's a dictatorship!
I think the reason God made men stronger than women is because he knew there would be times when the woman would get so emotionally out of control that it would take the threat and/or realization of physical force to restore order. Women really are smarter than men a lot of times, but God still put the man as head of the household. Why? Offense sells tickets/ defense wins games. That man's physical strength is the last outpost of defense.
Some women use verbal/emotional abuse as a primary strategy. I see men all the time out in public who look emaciated in general. They say behind every great man there's a great woman. I suspect that behind every emaciated man there's an abusive woman as well.
Some men are too prideful to admit they can actually be bullied by women. Oh, yes they can! Maybe 90% is a bit steep, but it always feels good to stand up to a bully. They can pass all the laws they want to, but as long as there are women who use abuse as their primary strategy, there will be men who use physical force as a last resort.
Ahh, having women in positions of leadership is one thing. Having them being treated as equals with appropriate respect is *totally* something else. (Can you say 'token minority'?)
As clearly shown by the many hundreds of testimonies both here on Greasespot, as well as on other boards (despite the cavalier yet empty dismissals of loyalists like Oldies and Smikeol, and much to their chagrin), there was clearly a pattern of sexual abuse and disregard for the respect/care due to these women, and often in direct contradiction of the Bible, the authority of which they have touted to the skies.
So the amount of female leadership as evidence of 'no widespread abuse of women' clearly rings hollow and means little. If anything.
quote: I think the reason God made men stronger than women is because he knew there would be times when the woman would get so emotionally out of control that it would take the threat and/or realization of physical force to restore order. Women really are smarter than men a lot of times, but God still put the man as head of the household. Why? Offense sells tickets/ defense wins games. That man's physical strength is the last outpost of defense.
First off, where specifically in the Bible does God give the husband the OK to give her the back of his hand in these emotional situations, even as 'a last resort'? Or where does it portray *any* of what you posted in that paragraph?
Two, for every example where you can give me the 'emaciated man' (and yes, I know that they are there), I can easily, easily give you *at least* one incident of the overpowering/abusive husband, and terror stricken wife who is too scared to leave her husband due to threats on her life, especially in times before 30-40 years ago. Easily!
Like its been mentioned before, if you have to 'clock' a women due to the running off at the mouth syndrome, or because her words 'bite you', then that shows that "you are outmatched intellectually, that you have no control over your emotions, that you are so much of an idiot that the only solution that you can come up with is to shut them up by hitting them".
How many times have I witnessed that to be the case for so many guys who resort to that kind of rank stupidity.
When you dismiss others' observations and experiences as preposterous, you aren't seeing them as valid, or merely challenging them, you are judging them unworthy of consideration. However you backpedal and rationalize - this has been your M.O. for quite some time, on a variety of topics.
For your information, my own personal experience is not an experience of gender bias in general. For a good chunk of my time in TWI I was in an area populated by mainly overbearing, controlling women and weak wimpy men. The women called the shots and ran things behind the scenes. The men said "yes dear" and tried to avoid confrontation.
A few years before I got out things changed. We got a few newly graduated Way Corps who were very much into "confronting evil" and "smoking out" all kinds of error. This particular group of leaders was very abusive toward women, very disrespectful, and the atmosphere changed to one where the women were expected to have no opinion, but "shut up and submit".
Then the Corps were reassigned, a non-Way Corps guy started running the area and things reached an equilibrium of sorts.
So in my own experience I observed a variety of behaviors. I have also corresponded with a number of others whose experiences leaned more toward the "gender bias". Women and men who I believe and trust.
If all or most of your TWI experiences lean a certain way, of course the impression is that it's widespread and ministry-wide. When your experiences are repeated by others from widely separated parts of the country, it's as logical as heck to believe that it was a pattern, if not a policy.
I've seen first hand the results that happen when a man uses his size and strenght to intimidate his wife, it is not pretty. State laws at the time required the woman to press charges, which didn't happen and the restraining order was a joke.
From my perspective living with mental illness is quite capable of creating its own set of mental illness. Never knowing who it is your are talking or dealing with, the manic one or the depressed the deceptive/decietful actor or the damaged child within this can place quite a strain on the caregiver. Signals can quite easily get lost in the ongoing insanity. Add in all those poor children and I'll guarantee you there were issues popping up all over the place.
This was a real tragedy, one that might have been prevented if we had the ability to read minds and predict outcome but alas we can only guess at one and are clueless with the other.
quote:guffaw, om we already know that you are not 'all' there.....if you were in twi and was involved it was there right before your face...for a guy I guess, that so believed it really put your shoulders back and head up high to have the man totally in charge, huh, om?
Vickles, there were just as many women in charge as men. Where have you been? I had just as many female coordinators during my stint, as males. IF there were this female gender bias you so love to embrace, why were fems allowed to runs twigs, branches, limbs? Teach classes and coordinate. Twi wouldn't have put women IN CHARGE of things, if they were thought of as inferior, or second class.>>>
OM, I was one of those females that were leadership in twi. There were a few times that I was replaced with males that knew nothing at all and had no idea what they were doing. And, let me say there was no reason to be replaced. We were doing well and moving the word real good. As soon as the males came in with their knowing nothing but being a yes-man the fellowships dissipated.
So, as a female in a leadership position at times, I do know that they were very very gender based.
And I will add another thing...when I married, it was another total different thing. I was there to just serve my hubby.
quote: First off, where specifically in the Bible does God give the husband the OK to give her the back of his hand in these emotional situations, even as 'a last resort'? Or where does it portray *any* of what you posted in that paragraph?
You have indicated on other threads that you don't believe in God or that the bible is relevant. So for you to ask me to provide a scripture about anything is insincere. Nonetheless, I do have scripture for you. You know well that the bible doesn't usually address specific situations, just in principle. Where in the bible does it say you and I can drive a car? So don't give me your bull about that. But check out these scriptures...
Deut. 25:11,12 - When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets
Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.
I guess there are some things even women just should not do, eh? And don't give me that crap about it's the OT it doesn't apply, we're under grace...I know that, but YOU said "where specifically in the BIBLE..." right? Here's more...
Deut. 23:13,14 - If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
and give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman and when I came to her, I found her not a maid
The next several verses deal with if the man was lying, then...
verses 20,21 - but if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel
then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die...
So now you have more ammo to dislike the bible I guess.
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herbiejuan
now on a further thought...
it is my sincere belief that any man or woman that must resort to violence with his *loved ones* to solve a problem (outside of direct danger to oneself or others) is a coward be they male or female
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excathedra
herb my love, "cowardice" is too simplistic
we're talking about mental illness
it can't be "understood" by rationally thinking folks
love,ex
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herbiejuan
thak you xc I know...
I think and realise and *know*...
it is an ongoing *problem*
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herbiejuan
eK sul
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herbiejuan
I think therefore I is
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herbiejuan
what I think in terms of me is
someome told me is...
You could of toruted me to death and I wound't have told you the truth had my lfe depemded on in it
so deep was the abuse
so deep was the secets
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herbiejuan
what I' like to ask
of everybocy
in way or out
is if you (craig) would care to meet me sometime
on own, by ourselves one on one mano al mano...
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Bramble
As far as I'm aware, schizophrenia cannot be treated only by therapy. There has to be medication. Therapy is really helpful if it can convince the patient to stay on their medication, to understand their illness and accept the fact that they need the meds...cuz it tends to get worse over time. What was mild at age twenty could be very bizarre a decade later. ALso gets worse under stressful conditions.
Schizophrenia (Anderea was treated for schizophrenia)is way beyond being emotionally screwed up. It is a brain that makes its own, false, reality. It can happen to someone who was once emotionally healthy, just like diabetes can affect a child who was once physically healthy.
Under the onslaught of the illness, emotional health doesn't hold up real well, which is where therapy can help. Therapy can not make them not schizophrenic. Medication helps with the delusions(false reality) and hallucinations(seeing, hearing, feeling things that aren't happening), but it doen't cure them.
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Shellon
herbal said:
You could of toruted me to death and I wound't have told you the truth had my lfe depemded on in it
===============================================
Amen and Amen. That was my life too, after a few years in TWI, once I put all the puzzle together, realized what was what and realized what I had to do to keep my marriage and
baby(s).
It's a very scary place to be, very lonely, very depressing, very disheartening.
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Oakspear
There were many times during my marriage when I did not want to hear what my wife had to say, there were many times when I felt that she was very annoying and wished that permanent muteness would befall her. Never during any of those times was I even tempted to strike her.
Do I put women on a pedestal and refrain from hitting them when I would "clock" a man for the same infraction?
Johniam, I have learned how to both defend myself and do damage to others if necessary. I know some very quick and effective ways to "clock" people that would leave them "eating" through a straw among other things. Maybe my training has given me a better appreciation for the consequenses of violence than you have. Maybe my own ethics are such that I believe that violence is the last refuge of the idiot.
I can't think of any situation where I would hit anyone for simply annoying me, even if it were purposeful.
Hitting someone because their words bite you is to admit that you are outmatched intellectually, that you have no control over your emotions, that you are so much of an idiot that the only solution that you can come up with is to shut them up by hitting them.
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GarthP2000
Oak,
Bingo! Well done post!
Johniam,
After reading your recent posts in this thread, I ask myself, "And he accuses *me* of being spiritual slime??"
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simonzelotes
So those who knew of Andrea's inability and capability share some of the culpability,thus accountability for the drownings that were her responsibility,and if guilty,with civility sent to the proper facility....
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oldiesman
BTW, if what you're saying is really true, that there was widespread female gender abuse in twi, why oh why did you hang around for so long, or even go back? You had the chance at any time to leave, thank you very much. But you hung around, even with all this female abuse going on? and went back later on?
Gag me Oakspear.
The pot calling the kettle black.
And who gives you the freedom in Christ to perpetually engage in bitterness, wrath, anger, malice and evil speaking? My bible says put that stuff away. Oh, but you're straighting folks out on how we Christians ought to think about our brothers and sisters in twi.
The pot calling the kettle black.
Vickles, there were just as many women in charge as men. Where have you been? I had just as many female coordinators during my stint, as males. IF there were this female gender bias you so love to embrace, why were fems allowed to runs twigs, branches, limbs? Teach classes and coordinate. Twi wouldn't have put women IN CHARGE of things, if they were thought of as inferior, or second class.And now back to your regularly scheduled thread...
Simon, I think you'd have a point if folks knew she was capable of murdering her 5 children. But who knew that?Link to comment
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Steve!
UH, I thought that as well upon reading his posts.
But that's a pretty goldang sick sense of humor, if that is the case.
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Frankee
Ya know, I would have to say that there is some merit to this statement. My WOW family coordinator was a gal. And the WOW branch leader was a Sixth Corps woman. One branch leader was a Revrend woman, and I remember having to explain to other Christians that I met that it was perfectly acceptable to God for a woman to be a leader and clergy and that we did it that way in The Way because God doesn't care about all of that. Also, I remember that there was a fair amount of female WOW rovers that were women. I remember that, as a matter of fact, there was a certain type of "single tough gal" type gals that enjoyed roving the USA and teaching the Word to the WOWs. Lynn Perrigo for one, Stacy Bowen for another, Patti Bass, and another gal named Olson. Oh, and then there was Rev Barbara Lally and Rev Pat Lynn, very prominent females.
So, I think there is merit to what Oldiesman said in the above quote.
p.s.
Also:
Rev. Linda MacDuffy, (Rev?) Marcia Faulk, Mrs. Howard Allen (department head coordinator), Dorothy Owens (Housekeeping at HQ I think), Rev. Rosalie (Head of University of Life and one of the big coordinators of PFAL '77), Rev. Ellen Somebody of the 4th Corps (married Tim Warga), Rev Susan Bouldin, Rev Kathy Ralston, Christy Sargeant (a tough one there, look out!), (Rev?) Donna Martindale, Rev Claudettee Royal, Elena Whiteside, and I know there were others.
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johniam
Uncle Hairy:
quote: OK, I have a theory...I think johniam is totally goofing on us...he's seeing how many buttons he can push by saying these outrageous things! This is his way of having fun...first, he says the most outrageous and stupid thing he can think of, and then waits for our responses! He is probably drinking a cold beer and laughing his foot off as he reads the posts!...Am I right? C'mon fess up...I'm on to you now...nobody could possibly suggest that it's better to beat your child at home to teach him a lesson, than to have them get beat at school to learn the lesson..I think you got carried away with your own sense of humor...C'mon now, fess up and we'll all laugh together...
Nothing to fess up to; when I post it's for real other than obvious sarcasm. I am open to the responses I get. That's the biggest benefit to letter writing as opposed to direct communication. Some things need to be communicated one on one. Other times it's really better to be able to read something at your convenience more than once if necessary and process what is written in its own time.
Sometimes I read posts and get upset, only to re read it a day or so later and not be upset. Sure, if you say you've re read all my posts 3 times and you still think I'm nuts, OK.
As I said, getting physical should be a last resort, not a primary strategy. All the other things I listed as last resorts (spankings, war, bankruptcy, the death penalty, and the lake of fire) can be used as primary strategies and the results are bad. Sure, there are men whose primary strategy is physical threats and actions to keep his wife and kids constantly terrorized and "in line". I do not advocate this. Thats not a family, that's a dictatorship!
I think the reason God made men stronger than women is because he knew there would be times when the woman would get so emotionally out of control that it would take the threat and/or realization of physical force to restore order. Women really are smarter than men a lot of times, but God still put the man as head of the household. Why? Offense sells tickets/ defense wins games. That man's physical strength is the last outpost of defense.
Some women use verbal/emotional abuse as a primary strategy. I see men all the time out in public who look emaciated in general. They say behind every great man there's a great woman. I suspect that behind every emaciated man there's an abusive woman as well.
Some men are too prideful to admit they can actually be bullied by women. Oh, yes they can! Maybe 90% is a bit steep, but it always feels good to stand up to a bully. They can pass all the laws they want to, but as long as there are women who use abuse as their primary strategy, there will be men who use physical force as a last resort.
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GarthP2000
Ahh, having women in positions of leadership is one thing. Having them being treated as equals with appropriate respect is *totally* something else. (Can you say 'token minority'?)
As clearly shown by the many hundreds of testimonies both here on Greasespot, as well as on other boards (despite the cavalier yet empty dismissals of loyalists like Oldies and Smikeol, and much to their chagrin), there was clearly a pattern of sexual abuse and disregard for the respect/care due to these women, and often in direct contradiction of the Bible, the authority of which they have touted to the skies.
So the amount of female leadership as evidence of 'no widespread abuse of women' clearly rings hollow and means little. If anything.
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johniam
Rascal:
quote: p.s. wouldn ya just love to be able to reach through this screen n clock me one to shut me up?? lol
No, I wouldn't.
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GarthP2000
First off, where specifically in the Bible does God give the husband the OK to give her the back of his hand in these emotional situations, even as 'a last resort'? Or where does it portray *any* of what you posted in that paragraph?
Two, for every example where you can give me the 'emaciated man' (and yes, I know that they are there), I can easily, easily give you *at least* one incident of the overpowering/abusive husband, and terror stricken wife who is too scared to leave her husband due to threats on her life, especially in times before 30-40 years ago. Easily!
Like its been mentioned before, if you have to 'clock' a women due to the running off at the mouth syndrome, or because her words 'bite you', then that shows that "you are outmatched intellectually, that you have no control over your emotions, that you are so much of an idiot that the only solution that you can come up with is to shut them up by hitting them".
How many times have I witnessed that to be the case for so many guys who resort to that kind of rank stupidity.
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Oakspear
Oldies:
When you dismiss others' observations and experiences as preposterous, you aren't seeing them as valid, or merely challenging them, you are judging them unworthy of consideration. However you backpedal and rationalize - this has been your M.O. for quite some time, on a variety of topics.
For your information, my own personal experience is not an experience of gender bias in general. For a good chunk of my time in TWI I was in an area populated by mainly overbearing, controlling women and weak wimpy men. The women called the shots and ran things behind the scenes. The men said "yes dear" and tried to avoid confrontation.
A few years before I got out things changed. We got a few newly graduated Way Corps who were very much into "confronting evil" and "smoking out" all kinds of error. This particular group of leaders was very abusive toward women, very disrespectful, and the atmosphere changed to one where the women were expected to have no opinion, but "shut up and submit".
Then the Corps were reassigned, a non-Way Corps guy started running the area and things reached an equilibrium of sorts.
So in my own experience I observed a variety of behaviors. I have also corresponded with a number of others whose experiences leaned more toward the "gender bias". Women and men who I believe and trust.
If all or most of your TWI experiences lean a certain way, of course the impression is that it's widespread and ministry-wide. When your experiences are repeated by others from widely separated parts of the country, it's as logical as heck to believe that it was a pattern, if not a policy.
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herbiejuan
I've seen first hand the results that happen when a man uses his size and strenght to intimidate his wife, it is not pretty. State laws at the time required the woman to press charges, which didn't happen and the restraining order was a joke.
From my perspective living with mental illness is quite capable of creating its own set of mental illness. Never knowing who it is your are talking or dealing with, the manic one or the depressed the deceptive/decietful actor or the damaged child within this can place quite a strain on the caregiver. Signals can quite easily get lost in the ongoing insanity. Add in all those poor children and I'll guarantee you there were issues popping up all over the place.
This was a real tragedy, one that might have been prevented if we had the ability to read minds and predict outcome but alas we can only guess at one and are clueless with the other.
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vickles
OM, I was one of those females that were leadership in twi. There were a few times that I was replaced with males that knew nothing at all and had no idea what they were doing. And, let me say there was no reason to be replaced. We were doing well and moving the word real good. As soon as the males came in with their knowing nothing but being a yes-man the fellowships dissipated.
So, as a female in a leadership position at times, I do know that they were very very gender based.
And I will add another thing...when I married, it was another total different thing. I was there to just serve my hubby.
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vickles
and with these so called great women leaders, at what price did they have to pay to get to the top?
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johniam
Garth:
quote: First off, where specifically in the Bible does God give the husband the OK to give her the back of his hand in these emotional situations, even as 'a last resort'? Or where does it portray *any* of what you posted in that paragraph?
You have indicated on other threads that you don't believe in God or that the bible is relevant. So for you to ask me to provide a scripture about anything is insincere. Nonetheless, I do have scripture for you. You know well that the bible doesn't usually address specific situations, just in principle. Where in the bible does it say you and I can drive a car? So don't give me your bull about that. But check out these scriptures...
Deut. 25:11,12 - When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets
Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.
I guess there are some things even women just should not do, eh? And don't give me that crap about it's the OT it doesn't apply, we're under grace...I know that, but YOU said "where specifically in the BIBLE..." right? Here's more...
Deut. 23:13,14 - If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
and give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman and when I came to her, I found her not a maid
The next several verses deal with if the man was lying, then...
verses 20,21 - but if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel
then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die...
So now you have more ammo to dislike the bible I guess.
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