I find it amazing that you know so much about this man whom none of us have ever met. You have judged him guilty and blame him and you don't know him. In order to convict him of a crime he should be tried in court and then and only then can we come up with a verdict.
She was a crazy woman and she went far beyond anything anyone ever expected. Just like 9/11. Who would have thought it?
quote: John, he is culpable in the fact that HE was the sane one, it was his responsibility as the husband and loved one to care for and protect not only Andrea from herself, but their children from her insanity as well.....since as an insane person, she was unable to do either.....insanity and delusion, is not something that you just turn on and off when it is convenient.....as the one in control of his faculties....
If she was that damn insane, she should've been institutionalized. It could be just as easily argued that the state should be blamed for not doing so. She did too know damn well what she was doing. There was permeditation. She should be put to death; this is a slam dunk.
I have to ask you this and its not meant to point fingers at you at all. But from all the time I've read your posts I get the feeling that there is some kind of anger towards women in general. There must have been something thats happened in your life to take these things to such an extreme. This is what I get from what you posted in several other threads.
Please say this isn't true. I'd truly like to understand why you continuously feel that women get away with stuff and men don't. Is that how you feel?
Yes, it's how I feel! Not "in general", but in specific situations, this being one of them. It seems to me that some women act as though when they do something well they want all respect all the time, but when they screw up, they want to be treated like "special ed" students who should not be held accountable for their behavior like other people (men). Not just women who make headlines like Andrea Yates, but women I see out in public and even at fellowships I attend. I get really sick of having to be the bigger person all the time. I think many women routinely take advantage of men in this way in interpersonal relationships.
If a fly or mosquito buzzed in your ear for several seconds at a time you'd probably swat at it involuntarily until it stopped. That's not violent or abusive, it's merely being human and needing your space. I personally believe that 90% of so called domestic violence cases are initiated by the woman. They get emotional, they don't know or care when to shut up, they keep verbally hammering away at that man non stop, driving him up a wall.......the only defense that man has is to either flee his own house, or clock her like she deserves. But how convenient it's illegal for him to do that. So he stews for awhile until he can't take it anymore and then "swats the fly" and gets put in jail. Who will dare hold the woman responsible for causing this?
It's never going to be legal for men OR women to injure anybody, but this situation in our culture all but encourages women to be predators. Yes, Vickles, I DO think women get away with stuff and men don't.
You sound like the guy who had the 'good fortune' (definitely tongue in cheek here) to have been in a bad experience with blacks, then who bases his judgements of many, if not all black people on just those few bad experiences; except with you, its women.
While the feeling is understandable, it is still none-the-less flawed. Sorry chief, but there ain't no widespread 'anti-male' corn-spiracy running amok, Rush Limbaugh's 'feminazi' rantings notwithstanding.
Besides, you ask many women, and I'll be willing to bet that they would have a similar impression re: men as you do of women, and historically, they would have more to go on than you do. And even then, the 'men have got it all' viewpoint is still flawed.
It still comes down to the individual.
And no, there is no way you can convince me that 90% of all domestic violence cases have been 'initiated' by women. Nahh, been around the block far too many times for me to fall for that one.
In domestic violence cases whoever is hurting the other person goes to jail.
man or woman get arrested of this crime and in NY the children are taken out of the home imediately if domestic violence by either person is found.
what your saying isnt true Johniam if a woman hits or slaps a man she goes to jail just as quick. if the problem is that men have a macho image that doesnt allow them to cry about being slapped by a girl that is your problem.
if a person is in a nagging relationship they should get out of the unhappy relationship . NO one deserves to be hit or beat are you for real?
Maybe andrea did plan her murders we do not know what she was thinking and no one is doubting the fact she is a killer and dangerous and scary all Im saying is the father of these children is not gold and can also have a great deal of shame surrounding this crime by ignoring the facts.
I personally believe that 90% of so called domestic violence cases are initiated by the woman. They get emotional, they don't know or care when to shut up, they keep verbally hammering away at that man non stop, driving him up a wall.......the only defense that man has is to either flee his own house, or clock her like she deserves. But how convenient it's illegal for him to do that. So he stews for awhile until he can't take it anymore and then "swats the fly" and gets put in jail. Who will dare hold the woman responsible for causing this?
quote:They get emotional, they don't know or care when to shut up, they keep verbally hammering away at that man non stop, driving him up a wall.....
Boy, ain't that got a ring of truth to it...
Here's one: A man goes to see the Rabbi. "Rabbi, something terrible is happening and I have to talk to you about it." The Rabbi asked, "What's wrong?" The man replied, "My wife is poisoning me."
The Rabbi, very surprised by this, asks, "How can that be?" The man then pleads, "I'm telling you, I'm certain she's poisoning me. What should I do?" The Rabbi then offers, "Tell you what. Let me talk to her. I'll see what I can find out and I'll let you know."
A week later the Rabbi calls the man and says. "I spoke to your wife...spoke to her on the phone for three hours. You want my advice?"
The man said yes, and the Rabbi replied, "Take the poison."
No kiddin! Seems kinda raucous fer sher! Glad to know you all get along anyway.
It seems as if this thread has sort of degenerated into a male against female thing, which is unforchunate. It started into that because, I think, because of the opinion that the husband of Ms Yates should share in the responsibility of the death of the children.
A couple of the posters, Vickles and someone else I think, expressed this, and I think that their opinion was not that "because he was a MAN", that he should share in the blame, but because he was the closest person to Andrea Yates in the situation, i.e., her husband, that he should share in the blame because he could have done something to stop it. I think that this opinion was concluded not because he is a MAN, but because he was close to the situation, as a husband would be. I think that the same conclusion could have been drawn by those with this opinion if Ms Yates had been living with her sister, let's say, or her mother. I don't think that these posters were making it a "this was a MAN's fault" type of a conclusion, but that it was this individual man's part in the tragedy.
But it really does seem as if MJ412 was saying that our "male dominated society" has something to do with why this happened, and I do believe that this is sexist and unfair. I will quote her again just to be fair:
quote: quote: It takes two to make babies HELLO how long is our culture going to excuse men for their behaviour or lack of responsibility with children and force feed woman to submit to the sole care taking of the men and children at the very radical expense of their own self? how long must a woman carry the emotional load for the man and the children? That isnt even biblical it is just our sick bias culture of male dominance flaring up like the coals of hell .
It is not by accident that the "hysterical" overemotional female ends up under the same roof as the unemotional distant male.
Oh, there is that quote:
quote: it is just our sick bias culture of male dominance flaring up like the coals of hell .
Now come on. This is uncalled for. Of course this is offensive to me as a man or any other man. If this is what has set Johniam off, then I cannot blame him. Like I said before, this man, Mr. Yates, will be living in hell for the rest of his life while he thinks about losing his ENTIRE FAMILY when he could have done something about it had he the foreknowledge. And unless a court of law can convict him of actually breaking a LAW that resulted in the death of his children, I do not think it is fair to judge him. She killed them, NOT him. He will live with that for the rest of his life.
Like I asked before: "What punishment can we give him that will be worse than the hell that he undoubtedly lives in now?"
oldiesman and johniam, I'm amazed that you've both chosen to belittle abuse towards women as you have. I've told you both at some point or other my respect for areas we understand similarly regarding. I proudly refuse to agree in this you guys!
A woman adds to a situation, of course, but to give her such a percentage of blame. And then to in "bad form" opt to joke about her "falsely defined manner" that "got her foot kicked" is in such bad taste I've no way to describe it.
I've said in 'tacks I'd easily lay someone down for the last time and I assure you I would. But that is war, that is terrorism, this is not the same is it you guys? Where do you get off?
Frankee, you got me right...if it had been her mother, sister...my thinking is definitley not gender based. If someone is thinking that way then I would not be able to agree with them.
I'm sorry johniam that you feel that way but at least now I know where your coming from.
Yes Vickles, and I am glad that I didn't make you mad by mentioning your name here. And speaking of your name, if you are a "Vicky", but go by "Vickles", then why is it? Do you like pickles? :)-->
Oh, and I see that you like fishing! Well, So Do I! Ever caught a Walleye?
Frankee, you are correct, i was not considering it a man/woman thing, when I mentioned the hubbies culpability, if you will notice, I mentioned the psychiatrists and institutes that turned them away as culpable first and fore most....
I even think the ministers share some responsibility, the ones she spent so many years earnestly trying to follow their instructions....they had her believing that prayer and bible study would bring her the peace she so desperatly sought after....she just needed to have stronger faith was all....she tried for years
So many people that played a part in this tradgedy,
The lady is nuts, she did what she thought her spiritual duty to God was, It was up to those around her male/female professional and family that were in control of their faculties to protect those children.
..."driving him up a wall..." "clock her like she deserves".
It's always wrong for a man to hit a woman. Nobody can drive you up a wall, you have to do that yourself...johniam, I hate to say this, but you sound like a sicko.
Chatty, I share your disgust, the mask is slipping on john a bit, I imagine he and the guy that supports him, simply loved the way the women were kept in line in twi....I know more than one case of physical violence being advocated as acceptable to keep the little lady in line....as a matter of fact, his phrasing is chilling, as it is almost exactly word for word what I heard from some leaders while I was involved.....wierd thing is, I can remember not questioning it at the time.
I clearly remember being told in twi, that it if a wife was struck, it was her fault for not knowing when to *shut up*....
As far as the Yates woman goes...I have a hard time with the death penalty. I think it's wrong.
Self defense...sure. If a guy is shootin' at you or is about to take a butcher knife to a loved one...sure thing, blow his head off with your 12 gauge, and do it quick...but the death penalty? Here's my problem with it...the guy has been CAPTURED. To put him to death at this point, is premeditated killing of someone who is no longer a threat and is unable to defend himself...it's pure revenge. You are committing the very act that you are putting him to death for committing...and that's not even to mention the fact that many on death row have been recently proven innocent by DNA testing...you kill somebody, there's no taking it back.
Frankee...I'm not angry, honest. It was merely an observation that I made while in an unusually calm state of mind...
If the word "sicko" was a bit too harsh, then I profusely apologize to any and all that I may have offended. Perhaps I should have used the word "socially disturbed individual" instead. ;)-->
Frankee, a word of advice, don your asbestos fire resistant underwear if you are gonna play here....lol
You say that hairy isn`t nice for calling names??? Oh Come ON.....John advocates *clocking* someone simply because they annoy him ???? (I guess offering the attention and love required to address a mates problem would be to much to ask) I`d say that UH is right on the money.
quote:I imagine he and the guy that supports him, simply loved the way the women were kept in line in twi....
It's a myth women were victims in twi. Just another myth, from the Victim Mentality Propaganda cyberworld, to brainwash the weakminded into believing that women in twi were/are victims. Like some massive gender bias? Blahah. Balderdash.
Except for VP Wierwille and a few others, I think the women in twi were running the show just as much as the men; in the case of the wives, perhaps from behind the scenes instead of upfront. And single women always had lots of ability and powerful functions and positions in twi. They still do. And who's running the show now?
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Frankee
I find it amazing that you know so much about this man whom none of us have ever met. You have judged him guilty and blame him and you don't know him. In order to convict him of a crime he should be tried in court and then and only then can we come up with a verdict.
She was a crazy woman and she went far beyond anything anyone ever expected. Just like 9/11. Who would have thought it?
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johniam
Rascal:
quote: John, he is culpable in the fact that HE was the sane one, it was his responsibility as the husband and loved one to care for and protect not only Andrea from herself, but their children from her insanity as well.....since as an insane person, she was unable to do either.....insanity and delusion, is not something that you just turn on and off when it is convenient.....as the one in control of his faculties....
If she was that damn insane, she should've been institutionalized. It could be just as easily argued that the state should be blamed for not doing so. She did too know damn well what she was doing. There was permeditation. She should be put to death; this is a slam dunk.
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johniam
Vickles:
quote: johniam,
I have to ask you this and its not meant to point fingers at you at all. But from all the time I've read your posts I get the feeling that there is some kind of anger towards women in general. There must have been something thats happened in your life to take these things to such an extreme. This is what I get from what you posted in several other threads.
Please say this isn't true. I'd truly like to understand why you continuously feel that women get away with stuff and men don't. Is that how you feel?
Yes, it's how I feel! Not "in general", but in specific situations, this being one of them. It seems to me that some women act as though when they do something well they want all respect all the time, but when they screw up, they want to be treated like "special ed" students who should not be held accountable for their behavior like other people (men). Not just women who make headlines like Andrea Yates, but women I see out in public and even at fellowships I attend. I get really sick of having to be the bigger person all the time. I think many women routinely take advantage of men in this way in interpersonal relationships.
If a fly or mosquito buzzed in your ear for several seconds at a time you'd probably swat at it involuntarily until it stopped. That's not violent or abusive, it's merely being human and needing your space. I personally believe that 90% of so called domestic violence cases are initiated by the woman. They get emotional, they don't know or care when to shut up, they keep verbally hammering away at that man non stop, driving him up a wall.......the only defense that man has is to either flee his own house, or clock her like she deserves. But how convenient it's illegal for him to do that. So he stews for awhile until he can't take it anymore and then "swats the fly" and gets put in jail. Who will dare hold the woman responsible for causing this?
It's never going to be legal for men OR women to injure anybody, but this situation in our culture all but encourages women to be predators. Yes, Vickles, I DO think women get away with stuff and men don't.
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Frankee
Oh boy. I think it is going to get really rough in here. I think I'll just watch for awhile.
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GarthP2000
Johniam,
You sound like the guy who had the 'good fortune' (definitely tongue in cheek here) to have been in a bad experience with blacks, then who bases his judgements of many, if not all black people on just those few bad experiences; except with you, its women.
While the feeling is understandable, it is still none-the-less flawed. Sorry chief, but there ain't no widespread 'anti-male' corn-spiracy running amok, Rush Limbaugh's 'feminazi' rantings notwithstanding.
Besides, you ask many women, and I'll be willing to bet that they would have a similar impression re: men as you do of women, and historically, they would have more to go on than you do. And even then, the 'men have got it all' viewpoint is still flawed.
It still comes down to the individual.
And no, there is no way you can convince me that 90% of all domestic violence cases have been 'initiated' by women. Nahh, been around the block far too many times for me to fall for that one.
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mj412
In domestic violence cases whoever is hurting the other person goes to jail.
man or woman get arrested of this crime and in NY the children are taken out of the home imediately if domestic violence by either person is found.
what your saying isnt true Johniam if a woman hits or slaps a man she goes to jail just as quick. if the problem is that men have a macho image that doesnt allow them to cry about being slapped by a girl that is your problem.
if a person is in a nagging relationship they should get out of the unhappy relationship . NO one deserves to be hit or beat are you for real?
Maybe andrea did plan her murders we do not know what she was thinking and no one is doubting the fact she is a killer and dangerous and scary all Im saying is the father of these children is not gold and can also have a great deal of shame surrounding this crime by ignoring the facts.
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ChattyKathy
Unbelievable, simply unbelievable!
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Belle
We tried to warn you, Frankee!
;)-->
Just come on over to my booth on the sidelines. I learn a lot by watching, but I get to avoid the chili dogs when they start flying.
:D-->
Now, if you want to get into the thick of it, it's quite alright. We kiss and make up pretty often and genuinely on here (okay, most of the time).
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oldiesman
Boy, ain't that got a ring of truth to it...
Here's one: A man goes to see the Rabbi. "Rabbi, something terrible is happening and I have to talk to you about it." The Rabbi asked, "What's wrong?" The man replied, "My wife is poisoning me."
The Rabbi, very surprised by this, asks, "How can that be?" The man then pleads, "I'm telling you, I'm certain she's poisoning me. What should I do?" The Rabbi then offers, "Tell you what. Let me talk to her. I'll see what I can find out and I'll let you know."
A week later the Rabbi calls the man and says. "I spoke to your wife...spoke to her on the phone for three hours. You want my advice?"
The man said yes, and the Rabbi replied, "Take the poison."
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GarthP2000
Oldies,
???
You base your agreement with Johniam's ranting simply on a joke??
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Frankee
Belle-
No kiddin! Seems kinda raucous fer sher! Glad to know you all get along anyway.
It seems as if this thread has sort of degenerated into a male against female thing, which is unforchunate. It started into that because, I think, because of the opinion that the husband of Ms Yates should share in the responsibility of the death of the children.
A couple of the posters, Vickles and someone else I think, expressed this, and I think that their opinion was not that "because he was a MAN", that he should share in the blame, but because he was the closest person to Andrea Yates in the situation, i.e., her husband, that he should share in the blame because he could have done something to stop it. I think that this opinion was concluded not because he is a MAN, but because he was close to the situation, as a husband would be. I think that the same conclusion could have been drawn by those with this opinion if Ms Yates had been living with her sister, let's say, or her mother. I don't think that these posters were making it a "this was a MAN's fault" type of a conclusion, but that it was this individual man's part in the tragedy.
But it really does seem as if MJ412 was saying that our "male dominated society" has something to do with why this happened, and I do believe that this is sexist and unfair. I will quote her again just to be fair:
Now come on. This is uncalled for. Of course this is offensive to me as a man or any other man. If this is what has set Johniam off, then I cannot blame him. Like I said before, this man, Mr. Yates, will be living in hell for the rest of his life while he thinks about losing his ENTIRE FAMILY when he could have done something about it had he the foreknowledge. And unless a court of law can convict him of actually breaking a LAW that resulted in the death of his children, I do not think it is fair to judge him. She killed them, NOT him. He will live with that for the rest of his life.
Like I asked before: "What punishment can we give him that will be worse than the hell that he undoubtedly lives in now?"
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ChattyKathy
oldiesman and johniam, I'm amazed that you've both chosen to belittle abuse towards women as you have. I've told you both at some point or other my respect for areas we understand similarly regarding. I proudly refuse to agree in this you guys!
A woman adds to a situation, of course, but to give her such a percentage of blame. And then to in "bad form" opt to joke about her "falsely defined manner" that "got her foot kicked" is in such bad taste I've no way to describe it.
I've said in 'tacks I'd easily lay someone down for the last time and I assure you I would. But that is war, that is terrorism, this is not the same is it you guys? Where do you get off?
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vickles
Frankee, you got me right...if it had been her mother, sister...my thinking is definitley not gender based. If someone is thinking that way then I would not be able to agree with them.
I'm sorry johniam that you feel that way but at least now I know where your coming from.
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Frankee
Yes Vickles, and I am glad that I didn't make you mad by mentioning your name here. And speaking of your name, if you are a "Vicky", but go by "Vickles", then why is it? Do you like pickles?
:)-->
Oh, and I see that you like fishing! Well, So Do I! Ever caught a Walleye?
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rascal
Frankee, you are correct, i was not considering it a man/woman thing, when I mentioned the hubbies culpability, if you will notice, I mentioned the psychiatrists and institutes that turned them away as culpable first and fore most....
I even think the ministers share some responsibility, the ones she spent so many years earnestly trying to follow their instructions....they had her believing that prayer and bible study would bring her the peace she so desperatly sought after....she just needed to have stronger faith was all....she tried for years
So many people that played a part in this tradgedy,
The lady is nuts, she did what she thought her spiritual duty to God was, It was up to those around her male/female professional and family that were in control of their faculties to protect those children.
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GrouchoMarxJr
..."driving him up a wall..." "clock her like she deserves".
It's always wrong for a man to hit a woman. Nobody can drive you up a wall, you have to do that yourself...johniam, I hate to say this, but you sound like a sicko.
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rascal
Chatty, I share your disgust, the mask is slipping on john a bit, I imagine he and the guy that supports him, simply loved the way the women were kept in line in twi....I know more than one case of physical violence being advocated as acceptable to keep the little lady in line....as a matter of fact, his phrasing is chilling, as it is almost exactly word for word what I heard from some leaders while I was involved.....wierd thing is, I can remember not questioning it at the time.
I clearly remember being told in twi, that it if a wife was struck, it was her fault for not knowing when to *shut up*....
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Frankee
Oh come on Uncle Harry, let's not call names. It's not very, well, nice. We can discuss without anger? No?
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GrouchoMarxJr
As far as the Yates woman goes...I have a hard time with the death penalty. I think it's wrong.
Self defense...sure. If a guy is shootin' at you or is about to take a butcher knife to a loved one...sure thing, blow his head off with your 12 gauge, and do it quick...but the death penalty? Here's my problem with it...the guy has been CAPTURED. To put him to death at this point, is premeditated killing of someone who is no longer a threat and is unable to defend himself...it's pure revenge. You are committing the very act that you are putting him to death for committing...and that's not even to mention the fact that many on death row have been recently proven innocent by DNA testing...you kill somebody, there's no taking it back.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Frankee...I'm not angry, honest. It was merely an observation that I made while in an unusually calm state of mind...
If the word "sicko" was a bit too harsh, then I profusely apologize to any and all that I may have offended. Perhaps I should have used the word "socially disturbed individual" instead.
;)-->
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rascal
Frankee, a word of advice, don your asbestos fire resistant underwear if you are gonna play here....lol
You say that hairy isn`t nice for calling names??? Oh Come ON.....John advocates *clocking* someone simply because they annoy him ???? (I guess offering the attention and love required to address a mates problem would be to much to ask) I`d say that UH is right on the money.
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oldiesman
Except for VP Wierwille and a few others, I think the women in twi were running the show just as much as the men; in the case of the wives, perhaps from behind the scenes instead of upfront. And single women always had lots of ability and powerful functions and positions in twi. They still do. And who's running the show now?
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Oakspear
I think the term "sicko" was quite restrained
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Steve!
There you go singing that same tired song, om.
This thread is *not* discussing female victimhood.
There *was* and perhaps *is* an attitude within TWIt that women are subservient to men.
*squawk!* Women weren't victims! *squawk!* Women weren't victims! *squawk!* Polly wanna cracker! *squawk!* Women weren't victims! *squaaaaaawk!*
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