Well, really some of this does depend on how exactly you understand dispensations.
If grace is everything, and there is nothing carried over from previous administrations; then who cares go to bed with your dog or horse, or kill anyone who bothers you. Who cares, since we are under grace and there are no laws that apply to us.
If in some way, the old laws are still in force and in some method still hold as a guideline for ‘righteous’ behavior; then better straighten out.
Lingo-
“Jesus yelled at and chased the money changers out of the temple, with a whip!
He also called a group of pharisees a den of scorpions and a bunch of "whited sepulchres" while in the process of pointing out their error. I won't bother to find the scripture references, because I know, and you know that they are there. Yet, the majority of your post makes perfect sense. It reminds me of the verse in Romans that says, "should we continue in sin that grace should abound? God forbid....." “
So you say that even Jesus did not like those who violated the laws of Moses. Hmm so for example homosexuals would have had an exception? Maybe you think? No, I don’t think so. Jesus held a firm line.
WWJD? [What Would Jesus Do?] Hmm, I think stoning.
Would could just as easily try to justify any of the other Levitical laws that I mentioned, but I see you did not touch that one.
J
Hap-
“I certainly felt Lingo's and Eagle's love for "twisted" Daryl. fine demonstration of love. give me a damn break. Yes Lingo you can voice your opinion here, (like I have anything to say about it) but to call another GSr twisted is over the line. Whether you meant it that way or not, (and based on other posts from both of you over the last year, I suspect you meant it all) that is what I heard you to say.”
I believe, or should I say perceive; that as Christians we love one another, though we also see what each other is doing and we may sometimes dis-like that which we see.
Not to say that we don’t love our brother, as Jesus would no doubt still love them. Even though they violate everything Jesus stood for.
I would hope that when I walk down the ‘wrong road’, that other believers would see my error and lovingly correct me. Not to say tha tthey don’t love me, but perhaps they dis-like my behavior.
Lingo-
“We Americans? Oh, and I suppose that we Americans are as rotten as the many-not all-Muslims who sanction the killing of one's sister who may or may not have had sex with some guy, in order to save the "precious" honor of their Muslim father! We Americans?”
So what is it any better that we go into a religious war and defend muslims, attacking their Christian enemys? We did / are doing such.
I am a veteran of Kosovo. Killing Christians for mommy.
quote: They were going to stone her to death until Jesus came by and said “He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone.”
But then Jesus told the woman;
"Go, and sin no more"
Sure he forgave her, told the haters to back off, and challenged them about their own sin which caused them to "dissapear" one by one, from the youngest to the oldest, but then he still said;
"Go, and sin no more....."
He forgave her, but he still reminded her of correct conduct, that which her lack of got her into trouble in the first place...
Yeah, ok, I just got home from work, and this really happened to me a few minutes ago....
A guy came into the store where I work, dressed like a woman. He was an obvious transvestite. Nobody wanted to wait on him, so I did. (Geeze, he is a person, like anybody else.)
He/she was obviously nervous, but wanted to buy some furniture for a new place, and wants to use our design services.
As a professional, I sat and talked with him/her, assessed his/her design needs and actually made an appointment to help him/her with his new home.
Nobody else wanted to give him/her the time of day. But I feel like all persons are created equal, and he/she deserves the best I have to offer.
Am I wrong in this? I don't think so.....As a Christian and a human, I feel like I should give 100% to this client like I do to everyone else.
I see that you are online at the same time as I am. "PC" stands for "politically correct", which is a term which describes how a person might respond to a "politically touchy subject".
For instance: If the political attitude towards the game of "dodge ball" is that dodge ball is wrong, it is exclusionary-you get hit by the ball and you are out-and includes other children as "targets", and that the government should ban such activities because it may somehow "warp" our children's mind set, and you "go with the flow" and spout the same doctrine because you are worried about what the majority of people may think of you, then you are acting as "politically correct", or, "PC". And, you may be amazed at this, but the very county that I grew up in, Montgomery County, Maryland, has banned dodge ball in the Public School system for this very reason. It is the first county in America to do so as a matter of fact. Do a web search, it's interesting.
Now, as for me, I don't want to be "PC". I want to make my own decisions, according to what I think is right, and logical. I think "dodge ball" is ok, and that it teaches a good life's lesson: The world is a jungle, and you had better learn how to move with it or against it, or dodge it, or, it'll eat you up! Just like a lot of athletic competitions. But all of this is just my opinion, although, I think it is right on with Life It's Ownself...
Ex10, I believe that one of the greatest challenges each of us have in life is learning to be comfortable with who we are. I think you helped her do just that. Could that ever be wrong?
"... A guy came into the store where I work, dressed like a woman. He was an obvious transvestite. Nobody wanted to wait on him, so I did. (Geeze, he is a person, like anybody else.)"
"Am I wrong in this? I don't think so.....As a Christian and a human, I feel like I should give 100% to this client like I do to everyone else."
I think you did great.
We are here ministering to the World.
I have laid it out 'there', that I dont approve of GLBT lifestyles. That does not mean that I treat them poorly, or I certainly dont mean to treat them poorly. Within the military, if they act out on their feelings they are breaking the law and will be prosecuted [some commands are hesitant to prosecute on this, so the servicemember will recieve a dis-charge as un-fit for service.]
But the same could be said about any 'sin'. Consider Paul, he was a killer of beleivers, but he changed. I dont think that anyone you or I meet is beyond God's capability of helping. [unless you did truly meet someone born of the Adversary's seed, but I would think that your senses would be so offended in his presence that it would never occur to you to help him].
I agree with Galen. The man needed furniture, and you helped him out. If he came in screaming about "gay rights" and DEMANDED service, I would have pointed out a few "gay wrongs" and sent him on his way; but he was apparently very respectful, and it was right for you to treat him in like manner.
I think that many times, people who believe that "gay is ok" fail to see that just because someone believes that "gay is not ok", that they treat gay people disrespectfully.
Now, it may be said that I personally, here at this forum, have spoken disrespectfully, but I also believe, that when we have an open discussion on a subject, be it on various aspects of homosexuality, liberalism in government, or the differences between GWB and the John Kerry, that since it is open discussion (which will no doubt include passionate discourse), it will also include some name calling and etc. For instance, I have been called a "bigot", a "hater" and most recently, a "jerk"!
So, what is "more evil"? Me being called a bigot, a hater, a jerk? Or me calling some one elses activities "twisted"? Neither is worse in my opinion, it all simply goes with the territory of the open discussion of controversial topics. Maybe instead of "twisted", I could have said ; "deviant behavior", and instead of being called a "jerk", I could have been called "not nice" or something to that effect. But I don't mind being called a jerk, in fact, I thought it was kinda funny!
But I shall say, that when I leave these discussions, and have contact with gay people in public or the work place, I don't seek occasions to argue about sexuality, and I do not treat homosexuals with a disrespect.
This is so cool. I have had the experience of meeting someone and consciously or subconsciously thinking there's no WAY this person is gay only to be very much surprised to find out they WERE gay. Well, that door swings both ways, ha ha.
I have a window cleaning account. It's a salon and I'm pretty sure the guy who runs it is gay. He saw me doing the windows at the place next door and came out and talked to me and now I do his windows too.
I'm aware that just because someone seems effeminate or talks with that tone of voice doesn't mean they're gay, but if I was a bettin' man....yeah! I certainly don't do this guy's windows any different than anybody else's; a business transaction is a business transaction. You just don't mess with that if you want to stay in business.
The last time I did this guy's windows, about 2 weeks ago, he had hired a helper who seemed even more effeminate than the first guy. He introduced himself to me, I shook his hand, it was business like enough. Then they gave me this tower of boxes of candy that must have cost 50 bucks. I mean, come on....let's spend 50 bucks on the window cleaner's Christmas present. It was 5 boxes of candy forming a tower. The bottom box was a foot wide and the top box was maybe 5 inches. Vaguely phallic.
I really don't think it was any kind of advance, though. I'm kind of fat, and I haven't noticed any gay men checking me out as far back as I can remember. I really think they simply like my work and felt like being generous. But here's what's cool.
If those guys knew what I really thought about homosexuality, if they knew what a "bigotted, homophobic, right wing, wacko" I am, then they'd probably close the account and try to convince next door to do the same. Now I'M the one who is in the closet. I'M the one "dressed in drag". I'M the one getting away with something. I'm this wacko and they DON'T HAVE A CLUE!!!! HAW HAW HAW!!! This is so cool.
Well its so cool that your discriminating views against gays stop when it comes to the almighty dollar. You think that they are spiritual scum, yet you have no qualms about working for their money.
What would you think about a liberal who trashes conservatives, yet has no qualms about working for their money, hmmm?
Kinda gives a new meaning to "the buck stops here" now, doesn't it?
-->
Oh by the way, isn't it also one of God's Edicts that you don't do business with the ungodly? (You know, the unbeliever, the atheist, the homo, et al) Like to know how many verses I can pull from the bible showing that 'principle'?
And as an aside, has anybody here noticed that just about every ex-TWIer who still has a very positive opinion of VPW and/or PFAL are all window cleaners?
Not that there is anything wrong with the work itself, but that kind of work was pretty popular with Wayfers back during the glory days of TWI. (As well as being the kind of work that didn't require any kind of higher education. ;)-->)
quote:And as an aside, has anybody here noticed that just about every ex-TWIer who still has a very positive opinion of VPW and/or PFAL are all window cleaners?
Garth, don't you think that's a rather silly, unfounded statement?
John R., for example, has made a nice living for himself and his family with his window cleaning business. And it sounds like others have, too. He's hardly expressed any "positive opinion of VPW and/or PFAL."
Not everybody wants to go to college or needs to. You're sounding a bit snobbish, Garthness, not to mention grabbing at straws to connect someone's occupation with his/her opinions about twi.
Just an observation, Linda, just an observation. Read what I said again.
I didn't say that ALL window washers were TWI apologists, but it *seemed* to me that just about all TWI apologists were window washers. Note the difference.
But, like you illustrated, thats neither here nor there.
You cracked me up! Not the part about being a "covert closet conservative", but the part about how you didn't that they wouldn't be hitting on the likes of you! That was too funny... :)-->
And Garth, puhleeze! The window washer/Way apologist correalation? A tad bit absurd, especially the comment about "higher education". That was really a cheap shot. And, btw, I have an old friend who is no friend of TWI anymore, yet he still washes windows. And, if you will seek out John "Igotoutagain" R, here, most likely hanging about at the 7th Corps thread, you can probably get his website address from him and take a gander at his business. Now this guy has BIG COJONES! He does the windows on skyscrapers and such, and the pictures at his site are awesome! And, if I am not mistaken, he makes lots of moolah. ;)-->
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vickles
So now I would like to know what PC is...could you please explain, Jonny?
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GarthP2000
Jonny is accusing you of using a Personal Computer.
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Galen
Dmiller-
“heh heh heh.
I smell a "dispensational arguement" coming up!”
Well, really some of this does depend on how exactly you understand dispensations.
If grace is everything, and there is nothing carried over from previous administrations; then who cares go to bed with your dog or horse, or kill anyone who bothers you. Who cares, since we are under grace and there are no laws that apply to us.
If in some way, the old laws are still in force and in some method still hold as a guideline for ‘righteous’ behavior; then better straighten out.
Lingo-
“Jesus yelled at and chased the money changers out of the temple, with a whip!
He also called a group of pharisees a den of scorpions and a bunch of "whited sepulchres" while in the process of pointing out their error. I won't bother to find the scripture references, because I know, and you know that they are there. Yet, the majority of your post makes perfect sense. It reminds me of the verse in Romans that says, "should we continue in sin that grace should abound? God forbid....." “
So you say that even Jesus did not like those who violated the laws of Moses. Hmm so for example homosexuals would have had an exception? Maybe you think? No, I don’t think so. Jesus held a firm line.
WWJD? [What Would Jesus Do?] Hmm, I think stoning.
Would could just as easily try to justify any of the other Levitical laws that I mentioned, but I see you did not touch that one.
J
Hap-
“I certainly felt Lingo's and Eagle's love for "twisted" Daryl. fine demonstration of love. give me a damn break. Yes Lingo you can voice your opinion here, (like I have anything to say about it) but to call another GSr twisted is over the line. Whether you meant it that way or not, (and based on other posts from both of you over the last year, I suspect you meant it all) that is what I heard you to say.”
I believe, or should I say perceive; that as Christians we love one another, though we also see what each other is doing and we may sometimes dis-like that which we see.
Not to say that we don’t love our brother, as Jesus would no doubt still love them. Even though they violate everything Jesus stood for.
I would hope that when I walk down the ‘wrong road’, that other believers would see my error and lovingly correct me. Not to say tha tthey don’t love me, but perhaps they dis-like my behavior.
Lingo-
“We Americans? Oh, and I suppose that we Americans are as rotten as the many-not all-Muslims who sanction the killing of one's sister who may or may not have had sex with some guy, in order to save the "precious" honor of their Muslim father! We Americans?”
So what is it any better that we go into a religious war and defend muslims, attacking their Christian enemys? We did / are doing such.
I am a veteran of Kosovo. Killing Christians for mommy.
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vickles
hehe
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ex10
Geeze,
I just want to thank Trefor for totally understanding the question I was asking. And making an attempt to help me out with it.
Love and hugs, guy, for "getting it."
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J0nny Ling0
But then Jesus told the woman;
"Go, and sin no more"
Sure he forgave her, told the haters to back off, and challenged them about their own sin which caused them to "dissapear" one by one, from the youngest to the oldest, but then he still said;
"Go, and sin no more....."
He forgave her, but he still reminded her of correct conduct, that which her lack of got her into trouble in the first place...
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vickles
So, Jonny, what is PC?
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ex10
Yeah, ok, I just got home from work, and this really happened to me a few minutes ago....
A guy came into the store where I work, dressed like a woman. He was an obvious transvestite. Nobody wanted to wait on him, so I did. (Geeze, he is a person, like anybody else.)
He/she was obviously nervous, but wanted to buy some furniture for a new place, and wants to use our design services.
As a professional, I sat and talked with him/her, assessed his/her design needs and actually made an appointment to help him/her with his new home.
Nobody else wanted to give him/her the time of day. But I feel like all persons are created equal, and he/she deserves the best I have to offer.
Am I wrong in this? I don't think so.....As a Christian and a human, I feel like I should give 100% to this client like I do to everyone else.
Am I wrong?
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J0nny Ling0
Hi Vickles.
I see that you are online at the same time as I am. "PC" stands for "politically correct", which is a term which describes how a person might respond to a "politically touchy subject".
For instance: If the political attitude towards the game of "dodge ball" is that dodge ball is wrong, it is exclusionary-you get hit by the ball and you are out-and includes other children as "targets", and that the government should ban such activities because it may somehow "warp" our children's mind set, and you "go with the flow" and spout the same doctrine because you are worried about what the majority of people may think of you, then you are acting as "politically correct", or, "PC". And, you may be amazed at this, but the very county that I grew up in, Montgomery County, Maryland, has banned dodge ball in the Public School system for this very reason. It is the first county in America to do so as a matter of fact. Do a web search, it's interesting.
Now, as for me, I don't want to be "PC". I want to make my own decisions, according to what I think is right, and logical. I think "dodge ball" is ok, and that it teaches a good life's lesson: The world is a jungle, and you had better learn how to move with it or against it, or dodge it, or, it'll eat you up! Just like a lot of athletic competitions. But all of this is just my opinion, although, I think it is right on with Life It's Ownself...
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J0nny Ling0
And to Seester EX10-
you said
No, you are not wrong. You should and did, treat that guy as you should have, with respect.
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Shelly
Ex10, I believe that one of the greatest challenges each of us have in life is learning to be comfortable with who we are. I think you helped her do just that. Could that ever be wrong?
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pawtucket
This thread is intriguing. Positions stated. Beliefs made known. And disagreements galore.
This is the type of discourse that lets everyone flex their thinking. And in the end, you are stronger in your opinion or open to other options.
And this is all fine. It is okay to disagree, it is great to disagree. Conflict helps mold and shape your beliefs, as well as see the other side.
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ChattyKathy
Very kewly stated!
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Galen
ex10:
"... A guy came into the store where I work, dressed like a woman. He was an obvious transvestite. Nobody wanted to wait on him, so I did. (Geeze, he is a person, like anybody else.)"
"Am I wrong in this? I don't think so.....As a Christian and a human, I feel like I should give 100% to this client like I do to everyone else."
I think you did great.
We are here ministering to the World.
I have laid it out 'there', that I dont approve of GLBT lifestyles. That does not mean that I treat them poorly, or I certainly dont mean to treat them poorly. Within the military, if they act out on their feelings they are breaking the law and will be prosecuted [some commands are hesitant to prosecute on this, so the servicemember will recieve a dis-charge as un-fit for service.]
But the same could be said about any 'sin'. Consider Paul, he was a killer of beleivers, but he changed. I dont think that anyone you or I meet is beyond God's capability of helping. [unless you did truly meet someone born of the Adversary's seed, but I would think that your senses would be so offended in his presence that it would never occur to you to help him].
:-)
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GeorgeStGeorge
Ex10,
I agree with Galen. The man needed furniture, and you helped him out. If he came in screaming about "gay rights" and DEMANDED service, I would have pointed out a few "gay wrongs" and sent him on his way; but he was apparently very respectful, and it was right for you to treat him in like manner.
George
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J0nny Ling0
Well said Galen and George.
I think that many times, people who believe that "gay is ok" fail to see that just because someone believes that "gay is not ok", that they treat gay people disrespectfully.
Now, it may be said that I personally, here at this forum, have spoken disrespectfully, but I also believe, that when we have an open discussion on a subject, be it on various aspects of homosexuality, liberalism in government, or the differences between GWB and the John Kerry, that since it is open discussion (which will no doubt include passionate discourse), it will also include some name calling and etc. For instance, I have been called a "bigot", a "hater" and most recently, a "jerk"!
So, what is "more evil"? Me being called a bigot, a hater, a jerk? Or me calling some one elses activities "twisted"? Neither is worse in my opinion, it all simply goes with the territory of the open discussion of controversial topics. Maybe instead of "twisted", I could have said ; "deviant behavior", and instead of being called a "jerk", I could have been called "not nice" or something to that effect. But I don't mind being called a jerk, in fact, I thought it was kinda funny!
But I shall say, that when I leave these discussions, and have contact with gay people in public or the work place, I don't seek occasions to argue about sexuality, and I do not treat homosexuals with a disrespect.
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johniam
This is so cool. I have had the experience of meeting someone and consciously or subconsciously thinking there's no WAY this person is gay only to be very much surprised to find out they WERE gay. Well, that door swings both ways, ha ha.
I have a window cleaning account. It's a salon and I'm pretty sure the guy who runs it is gay. He saw me doing the windows at the place next door and came out and talked to me and now I do his windows too.
I'm aware that just because someone seems effeminate or talks with that tone of voice doesn't mean they're gay, but if I was a bettin' man....yeah! I certainly don't do this guy's windows any different than anybody else's; a business transaction is a business transaction. You just don't mess with that if you want to stay in business.
The last time I did this guy's windows, about 2 weeks ago, he had hired a helper who seemed even more effeminate than the first guy. He introduced himself to me, I shook his hand, it was business like enough. Then they gave me this tower of boxes of candy that must have cost 50 bucks. I mean, come on....let's spend 50 bucks on the window cleaner's Christmas present. It was 5 boxes of candy forming a tower. The bottom box was a foot wide and the top box was maybe 5 inches. Vaguely phallic.
I really don't think it was any kind of advance, though. I'm kind of fat, and I haven't noticed any gay men checking me out as far back as I can remember. I really think they simply like my work and felt like being generous. But here's what's cool.
If those guys knew what I really thought about homosexuality, if they knew what a "bigotted, homophobic, right wing, wacko" I am, then they'd probably close the account and try to convince next door to do the same. Now I'M the one who is in the closet. I'M the one "dressed in drag". I'M the one getting away with something. I'm this wacko and they DON'T HAVE A CLUE!!!! HAW HAW HAW!!! This is so cool.
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GarthP2000
Johniam,
Well its so cool that your discriminating views against gays stop when it comes to the almighty dollar. You think that they are spiritual scum, yet you have no qualms about working for their money.
What would you think about a liberal who trashes conservatives, yet has no qualms about working for their money, hmmm?
Kinda gives a new meaning to "the buck stops here" now, doesn't it?
Oh by the way, isn't it also one of God's Edicts that you don't do business with the ungodly? (You know, the unbeliever, the atheist, the homo, et al) Like to know how many verses I can pull from the bible showing that 'principle'?
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GarthP2000
And as an aside, has anybody here noticed that just about every ex-TWIer who still has a very positive opinion of VPW and/or PFAL are all window cleaners?
Not that there is anything wrong with the work itself, but that kind of work was pretty popular with Wayfers back during the glory days of TWI. (As well as being the kind of work that didn't require any kind of higher education.
;)-->)
I wonder why that's so, hmmm?
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Linda Z
Sorry to add to the derail, but...
Garth, don't you think that's a rather silly, unfounded statement?
John R., for example, has made a nice living for himself and his family with his window cleaning business. And it sounds like others have, too. He's hardly expressed any "positive opinion of VPW and/or PFAL."
Not everybody wants to go to college or needs to. You're sounding a bit snobbish, Garthness, not to mention grabbing at straws to connect someone's occupation with his/her opinions about twi.
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GarthP2000
Just an observation, Linda, just an observation. Read what I said again.
I didn't say that ALL window washers were TWI apologists, but it *seemed* to me that just about all TWI apologists were window washers. Note the difference.
But, like you illustrated, thats neither here nor there.
Peace.
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J0nny Ling0
Johniam.
You cracked me up! Not the part about being a "covert closet conservative", but the part about how you didn't that they wouldn't be hitting on the likes of you! That was too funny...
:)-->
And Garth, puhleeze! The window washer/Way apologist correalation? A tad bit absurd, especially the comment about "higher education". That was really a cheap shot. And, btw, I have an old friend who is no friend of TWI anymore, yet he still washes windows. And, if you will seek out John "Igotoutagain" R, here, most likely hanging about at the 7th Corps thread, you can probably get his website address from him and take a gander at his business. Now this guy has BIG COJONES! He does the windows on skyscrapers and such, and the pictures at his site are awesome! And, if I am not mistaken, he makes lots of moolah.
;)-->
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GarthP2000
Yeah, you're right. It was a bad comparison. Mea culpa.
Besides, there are already enough valid cheap shots at TWI apologists as it is without me having to make more up, right?
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johniam
Garth: So what? I think you're spiritual scum, too, and I'd clean your windows.
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