" . . . What if He doesn't? What if they come to God and remain homosexuals? Impossible? I bet there are a number of peopl who can say that is exactly what has occured in their lives."
Okay lets say that someone does join a church and still wishes to remain living in the lifestyle they enjoyed before.
We could just as easily pick any other of the various Leviticus listed sins. What if the person just must have sex with their dog. The Bible, [both old testament and new testament say that it is wrong] but since we are the forgiving era and Christ is love afterall. Do we encourage that new Christian to continue in paths of bestiality?
What if they are a serial killer? Or they make their living via robbery. Or maybe two siblings are married?
The Old Testament does not apply to us anyway, and Christ is all about love. Jesus never did yell at anyone, he loved everyone and he never got in someone's face to point out their error.
quote: Jesus never did yell at anyone, he loved everyone and he never got in someone's face to point out their error.
Jesus yelled at and chased the money changers out of the temple, with a whip!
He also called a group of pharisees a den of scorpions and a bunch of "whited sepulchres" while in the process of pointing out their error. I won't bother to find the scripture references, because I know, and you know that they are there. Yet, the majority of your post makes perfect sense. It reminds me of the verse in Romans that says, "should we continue in sin that grace should abound? God forbid....."
Chuck:
I never said that I didn't expect to see any homosexuals in Paradise. I have a good friend from the Corps who went back to "guys", and I am thankful to know that he is born again and will be there at the Gathering Together. I rejoice at that, for he was a fine friend, and most likely would still be so, if I could find out where he is. I never said a thing about salvation for those who choose to either go back to their homo lifestyle, or those who never leave it but accept Jesus Christ as their Lord. So don't ASSume and jump to conclusions as to what I believe. I only stated simply from the Scriptures that this particular activity-which happens to be a LARGE PART OF THIS TOPIC-is wrong in the eyes of the Bible. I pronounced no judgement for the future of those who participate in homosexuality. So, just chill, ok?
I certainly felt Lingo's and Eagle's love for "twisted" Daryl. fine demonstration of love. give me a damn break. Yes Lingo you can voice your opinion here, (like I have anything to say about it) but to call another GSr twisted is over the line. Whether you meant it that way or not, (and based on other posts from both of you over the last year, I suspect you meant it all) that is what I heard you to say.
I would sooner go to dinner with Daryl than either Lingo or Eagle. He is an honorable man, and worthy of far more compassion than you have given him. Perhaps your god will condemn me for being considerate of the issues others face, fine, but considerate I will be. The God I believe in will honor my love, and I will honor myself also.
Put me in the PC group ifn you want, I couldn't give a flying fluck. I am so fed up with the 'tudes of the self righteous arrogant and mean people who profess to have the one truth. There must be a better way then their hateful god. fine witnesses he has. Does your little god condemn a person for that which he has no control? crap- how could you love that god?
Maybe some who practice sex with same-sex partners, choose to do so of their own will. I am rather sure others have no such control over their preferences. The human brain, hormones and electrical impulses are very intricate. Why would one choose this? We do not yet begin to understand the powers that work within us.
Is it possible that the verses that have been quoted speak to those who "gave themselves over" to this behavior? Is it possible that others like Daryl did nothing of the kind, but were born with these powerful forces within? Those verses then would not be referencing Daryl's lifestyle at all. So much for your "one truth". It is subject to interpretation. Always will be. The one thing that is clear is to love. so why don't ya do it?
We Americans are so adept at lumping all who are different into one nice little condemned mold.
quote: We Americans are so adept at lumping all who are different into one nice little condemned mold.
~HAP
We Americans? Oh, and I suppose that we Americans are as rotten as the many-not all-Muslims who sanction the killing of one's sister who may or may not have had sex with some guy, in order to save the "precious" honor of their Muslim father! We Americans?
And we Americans force our women to wear burhkas where only their eyes can be seen, and if they show a little leg, we stone them or shoot them to death in a public square, as they used to do in Kabul before the U.S. Army and Marines arrived? Shoot, the Muslim countries (which by the way are not "American" as you distastefully mentioned us) is the most sexist bunch of animals I have ever heard of! They are particularly adept at (and I'll quote you);
quote: adept at lumping all who are different into one nice little condemned mold.
A truly condemned mold I might add..
Dammit, get it straight Happy, read my initial posts on this thread! I have had fine relationships with gay co-workers who even became friends! I simply do not give the lifestyle a "stamp of approval" because of my Biblical beliefs! I never said I didn't nor wouldn't love them, I never said that they should not nor will not be included in the Gathering Together. I never said that God's love is not extended towards those who have chosen this lifestyle. I have simply stated that this lifestyle is not supported in a positive manner by the Bible, and yes, that "against nature" as in Romans 1, is tantamount to "twisted" in my opinion. Sorry, it's my belief...
Oh so don't state my beliefs? Ok, then don't state yours. Then there will be no ruffled feathers I guess, and the waters will be calm, and we'll all get along with no problems...
Remember, this is a discussion forum, where diverse beliefs and attitudes are expressed. Mine, nor Eagles' fits with yours, that's all...
I see that the original question has vanished under the usual avalanche of "scripture says" material.
Even an appeal to "common sense" was merely a statement of individual belief and nothing to do with logic whatsoever.
The usual suspects have reiterated their varying degrees of prejudice, almost like a kind of Pavlovian response.
The thread is a sociological, not a theological issue. Clearly some people cannot differentiate the two.
And clearly the f word has failed to be be bowdlerised by the program.
Sociologically speaking homosexuality has existed to a certain degree, whether overt or covert in every society. How society has reacted to it has varied, often influenced by religion.
In a secular society there is both freedom of and freedom from religion. Religion, however, cannot easily accept the concept of things that it would not itself allow and this produces a conflict of interest between what is acceptable in a civil sense and what people believe is acceptable to God. If one does not speak and act one can feel that one is, in some sense or other, letting God down.
Hence religious feelings enter a discussion that is not designed for them. Clearly it can be taken as a given that both male and female homosexuality (at least in terms of activity) is verboten. Having said that, one still has to deal with the realities out there in society, no matter what one's own convictions may be. Gays are still citizens, still people, with aspirations for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They are still neighbours, colleagues, maybe even friends, who look for toleration and protection and equality of treatment, even where what they do in private may not be acceptable or tolerant of being contemplated by those with a religious conscience.
There are many things that I do not approve of but I do not believe it is my place to stop others having the right to do them. I recognise that they have the right to make their own decisions and to live their lives as they see fit. There are too many busybodies out there wanting to ban this and that. To cite individual examples would divert this thread even more but I am sure that you can all think of some.
I hope no one believes here that if God accepts a homosexual into Heaven or Paradise that that person is still a homosexual when he or she is there.
According to what I have read, we are given new bodies, so if the cause of homosexuality is physical, then God will change that with this new body. If the cause is spiritual, then this person is removed from spiritual influences causing it. If the cause is mental or due to a free-lancing or free-spirited attitude that put them in bondage, then we are told we are to receive "full knowledge" with this new body and this should take care of that.
I am pretty sure God won't be cow-towing to the opinions of men or women. He is going to do what He set out to do.
Daryl - not intending to throw water on your fire, but the Matthew Sheperd incident turned out NOT to be a hate crime against a gay, but rather a drug deal gone bad.
If the only source that you get that from is the 'confession' of Matthew's killer on that TV interview, then it is, at most, on rather shakey ground.
His heated arguments during the trial and around the time of Matthew's murder about Matthew making a pass at him/showing sexual interest in him, as well as his hatred for gays is well documented, and (if I'm not mistaken) there were witnesses to this effect.
Now why he would be doing a downplaying turnaround like that should have one plain reason: to reduce his charge/sentence from 'hate crime' status.
When Christ comes I don't think any of us will be thinking about sex, do you? I don't think it will be an issue, but then who knows? Maybe your acceptance level would be there since we all will be changed. No bigotry I imagine would be allowed.
quote: I don't want schools teaching one-sided courses on gay sex, ...
Like that its not a violation of Natural Law and/or that gays are hurting no one with their gay actions?
quote: I don't want special laws protecting homosexuals at my expense.
I love it when this line keeps being brought up. ... Uhhm, since when was equal rights/treatment under the law a 'special law'? And how is it at your expense? Or in what way is a basic right given to them that is deprived to you?
quote: If you want to be treated equally, stop telling us how damn special you are.
??? Even if someone tells you that they are 'special' (imagining the church lady saying this :)-->), why would that give you an excuse not to treat them as equal human beings?
Besides, where was this same complaint given by straights when gays were told that they were inferior and vile? Kinda like being 'special' in reverse, doncha think?
quote: If you want to be treated equally, stop telling us how damn special you are.
Besides, where was this same complaint given by straights when gays were told that they were inferior and vile? Kinda like being 'special' in reverse, doncha think?
I agree with everything you said, but especially liked the last part.... :)-->
Also, in regards to this ((cough)) 'indignancy' towards gays when they aren't 'very level, almost unemotional' in their activism, I find it a tad ironic that when it comes to the rather 'unlevel' emotion rendered in religious conservatives rantings, regarding homosexuality or anything else that blows up their skirts, ... hmmm, they don't seem to find a problem with it.
Rather, to them it is 'taking a stand on principle and righteousness', etc., yadayada.
I would sooner go to dinner with Daryl than either Lingo or Eagle. He is an honorable man, and worthy of far more compassion than you have given him. ~HAP
From this, I infer that you consider Lingo and Eagle (and, probably, me) to be dishonorable. I do not disagree that Daryl is honorable. It takes courage to stand up for what one believes in the face of animosity, but I would contend that Lingo and Eagle are honorable for the same reason. Nor is it compassionless to point out someone's error. It's not a matter of condemnation, because there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. There still is sin, however; and we are called to reprove the works of darkness. On the other hand, there is no point in beating this horse anymore. In the short time I've been with Greasespot, every time homosexuality is mentioned (no matter how tangentially), the war of words begins anew. I think it's safe to say that Daryl and Trefor and the others will not be swayed from their homosexuality; nor will Jonny, Eagle, I, and others be convinced that it's all right.
Were we to work together, for the same company let's say, I think you would be surprised to find out how tolerant I would be of you, were I to come across the knowledge that you are gay. I wouldn't bring it up nor comment on it, unless my opinion were sought by you, and even then, I would simply state that I don't support the lifestyle, and I would probably tell you why. I would only take exception were you to try and push some agenda on me, or, if you were to be attracted to me in a gay sort of way, and do whatever gay guys do to try and "get some".
It comes up here more easily and with more "gusto", because this is a discussion forum, and for the most part we are anonymous to eachother. But really, aside from our obvious contrary beliefs, I find you guys to be respectful in your arguments for the most part, and when your passion for your belief causes some running off at the mouth, as does happen with me, I accept that also. But with you, Daryl, this is the first I remember debating this broad subject with you being involved, and I haven't seen you be anything but decent in your suppositions and responses.
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Galen
Abigail:
" . . . What if He doesn't? What if they come to God and remain homosexuals? Impossible? I bet there are a number of peopl who can say that is exactly what has occured in their lives."
Okay lets say that someone does join a church and still wishes to remain living in the lifestyle they enjoyed before.
We could just as easily pick any other of the various Leviticus listed sins. What if the person just must have sex with their dog. The Bible, [both old testament and new testament say that it is wrong] but since we are the forgiving era and Christ is love afterall. Do we encourage that new Christian to continue in paths of bestiality?
What if they are a serial killer? Or they make their living via robbery. Or maybe two siblings are married?
The Old Testament does not apply to us anyway, and Christ is all about love. Jesus never did yell at anyone, he loved everyone and he never got in someone's face to point out their error.
:-)
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dmiller
heh heh heh.
I smell a "dispensational arguement" coming up!
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J0nny Ling0
Galen? Did you really say this?
Jesus yelled at and chased the money changers out of the temple, with a whip!
He also called a group of pharisees a den of scorpions and a bunch of "whited sepulchres" while in the process of pointing out their error. I won't bother to find the scripture references, because I know, and you know that they are there. Yet, the majority of your post makes perfect sense. It reminds me of the verse in Romans that says, "should we continue in sin that grace should abound? God forbid....."
Chuck:
I never said that I didn't expect to see any homosexuals in Paradise. I have a good friend from the Corps who went back to "guys", and I am thankful to know that he is born again and will be there at the Gathering Together. I rejoice at that, for he was a fine friend, and most likely would still be so, if I could find out where he is. I never said a thing about salvation for those who choose to either go back to their homo lifestyle, or those who never leave it but accept Jesus Christ as their Lord. So don't ASSume and jump to conclusions as to what I believe. I only stated simply from the Scriptures that this particular activity-which happens to be a LARGE PART OF THIS TOPIC-is wrong in the eyes of the Bible. I pronounced no judgement for the future of those who participate in homosexuality. So, just chill, ok?
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HAPe4me
I certainly felt Lingo's and Eagle's love for "twisted" Daryl. fine demonstration of love. give me a damn break. Yes Lingo you can voice your opinion here, (like I have anything to say about it) but to call another GSr twisted is over the line. Whether you meant it that way or not, (and based on other posts from both of you over the last year, I suspect you meant it all) that is what I heard you to say.
I would sooner go to dinner with Daryl than either Lingo or Eagle. He is an honorable man, and worthy of far more compassion than you have given him. Perhaps your god will condemn me for being considerate of the issues others face, fine, but considerate I will be. The God I believe in will honor my love, and I will honor myself also.
Put me in the PC group ifn you want, I couldn't give a flying fluck. I am so fed up with the 'tudes of the self righteous arrogant and mean people who profess to have the one truth. There must be a better way then their hateful god. fine witnesses he has. Does your little god condemn a person for that which he has no control? crap- how could you love that god?
Maybe some who practice sex with same-sex partners, choose to do so of their own will. I am rather sure others have no such control over their preferences. The human brain, hormones and electrical impulses are very intricate. Why would one choose this? We do not yet begin to understand the powers that work within us.
Is it possible that the verses that have been quoted speak to those who "gave themselves over" to this behavior? Is it possible that others like Daryl did nothing of the kind, but were born with these powerful forces within? Those verses then would not be referencing Daryl's lifestyle at all. So much for your "one truth". It is subject to interpretation. Always will be. The one thing that is clear is to love. so why don't ya do it?
We Americans are so adept at lumping all who are different into one nice little condemned mold.
~HAP
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J0nny Ling0
Happy4me said
We Americans? Oh, and I suppose that we Americans are as rotten as the many-not all-Muslims who sanction the killing of one's sister who may or may not have had sex with some guy, in order to save the "precious" honor of their Muslim father! We Americans?
And we Americans force our women to wear burhkas where only their eyes can be seen, and if they show a little leg, we stone them or shoot them to death in a public square, as they used to do in Kabul before the U.S. Army and Marines arrived? Shoot, the Muslim countries (which by the way are not "American" as you distastefully mentioned us) is the most sexist bunch of animals I have ever heard of! They are particularly adept at (and I'll quote you);
A truly condemned mold I might add..
Dammit, get it straight Happy, read my initial posts on this thread! I have had fine relationships with gay co-workers who even became friends! I simply do not give the lifestyle a "stamp of approval" because of my Biblical beliefs! I never said I didn't nor wouldn't love them, I never said that they should not nor will not be included in the Gathering Together. I never said that God's love is not extended towards those who have chosen this lifestyle. I have simply stated that this lifestyle is not supported in a positive manner by the Bible, and yes, that "against nature" as in Romans 1, is tantamount to "twisted" in my opinion. Sorry, it's my belief...
Oh so don't state my beliefs? Ok, then don't state yours. Then there will be no ruffled feathers I guess, and the waters will be calm, and we'll all get along with no problems...
Remember, this is a discussion forum, where diverse beliefs and attitudes are expressed. Mine, nor Eagles' fits with yours, that's all...
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Trefor Heywood
I see that the original question has vanished under the usual avalanche of "scripture says" material.
Even an appeal to "common sense" was merely a statement of individual belief and nothing to do with logic whatsoever.
The usual suspects have reiterated their varying degrees of prejudice, almost like a kind of Pavlovian response.
The thread is a sociological, not a theological issue. Clearly some people cannot differentiate the two.
And clearly the f word has failed to be be bowdlerised by the program.
Sociologically speaking homosexuality has existed to a certain degree, whether overt or covert in every society. How society has reacted to it has varied, often influenced by religion.
In a secular society there is both freedom of and freedom from religion. Religion, however, cannot easily accept the concept of things that it would not itself allow and this produces a conflict of interest between what is acceptable in a civil sense and what people believe is acceptable to God. If one does not speak and act one can feel that one is, in some sense or other, letting God down.
Hence religious feelings enter a discussion that is not designed for them. Clearly it can be taken as a given that both male and female homosexuality (at least in terms of activity) is verboten. Having said that, one still has to deal with the realities out there in society, no matter what one's own convictions may be. Gays are still citizens, still people, with aspirations for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They are still neighbours, colleagues, maybe even friends, who look for toleration and protection and equality of treatment, even where what they do in private may not be acceptable or tolerant of being contemplated by those with a religious conscience.
There are many things that I do not approve of but I do not believe it is my place to stop others having the right to do them. I recognise that they have the right to make their own decisions and to live their lives as they see fit. There are too many busybodies out there wanting to ban this and that. To cite individual examples would divert this thread even more but I am sure that you can all think of some.
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Eagle
I hope no one believes here that if God accepts a homosexual into Heaven or Paradise that that person is still a homosexual when he or she is there.
According to what I have read, we are given new bodies, so if the cause of homosexuality is physical, then God will change that with this new body. If the cause is spiritual, then this person is removed from spiritual influences causing it. If the cause is mental or due to a free-lancing or free-spirited attitude that put them in bondage, then we are told we are to receive "full knowledge" with this new body and this should take care of that.
I am pretty sure God won't be cow-towing to the opinions of men or women. He is going to do what He set out to do.
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Steve!
Daryl - not intending to throw water on your fire, but the Matthew Sheperd incident turned out NOT to be a hate crime against a gay, but rather a drug deal gone bad.
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GarthP2000
Steve!,
If the only source that you get that from is the 'confession' of Matthew's killer on that TV interview, then it is, at most, on rather shakey ground.
His heated arguments during the trial and around the time of Matthew's murder about Matthew making a pass at him/showing sexual interest in him, as well as his hatred for gays is well documented, and (if I'm not mistaken) there were witnesses to this effect.
Now why he would be doing a downplaying turnaround like that should have one plain reason: to reduce his charge/sentence from 'hate crime' status.
*splash*
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def59
Tref
A lot the animosity toward homosexuals would die down if they would just shut up about their sex lives.
The in-your-face attitude and damn-your-views comments make it hard to see them as people.
Gay Pride festivals turn out to be orgiastic in nature proclaiming all the many deviancies available to homosexuals.
I don't want to know who or what you are sleeping with.
I don't want schools teaching one-sided courses on gay sex, I don't want special laws protecting homosexuals at my expense.
If you want to be treated equally, stop telling us how damn special you are.
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vickles
Eagle,
When Christ comes I don't think any of us will be thinking about sex, do you? I don't think it will be an issue, but then who knows? Maybe your acceptance level would be there since we all will be changed. No bigotry I imagine would be allowed.
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Steve!
Tref of course does not need me to defend him.
But apart from him mentioning that he is homosexual, where has Tref done any of those things that you mention?
He usually maintains a very level, almost unemotional, tone in his posts. Never accusatory or inflammatory.
He doesn't seem to be pushing any kind of agenda - he just seems to want to take part in discussions.
So why this frustration directed at Tref in particular?
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GarthP2000
Def,
Like that its not a violation of Natural Law and/or that gays are hurting no one with their gay actions?
I love it when this line keeps being brought up. ... Uhhm, since when was equal rights/treatment under the law a 'special law'? And how is it at your expense? Or in what way is a basic right given to them that is deprived to you?
??? Even if someone tells you that they are 'special' (imagining the church lady saying this
:)-->), why would that give you an excuse not to treat them as equal human beings?
Besides, where was this same complaint given by straights when gays were told that they were inferior and vile? Kinda like being 'special' in reverse, doncha think?
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vickles
Besides, where was this same complaint given by straights when gays were told that they were inferior and vile? Kinda like being 'special' in reverse, doncha think?
I agree with everything you said, but especially liked the last part....
:)-->
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GarthP2000
Also, in regards to this ((cough)) 'indignancy' towards gays when they aren't 'very level, almost unemotional' in their activism, I find it a tad ironic that when it comes to the rather 'unlevel' emotion rendered in religious conservatives rantings, regarding homosexuality or anything else that blows up their skirts, ... hmmm, they don't seem to find a problem with it.
Rather, to them it is 'taking a stand on principle and righteousness', etc., yadayada.
Can you say 'strawman'?
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Stayed Too Long
Welcome garthman...you are out in force today.
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J0nny Ling0
It does appear as if Garthman comes riding to the rescue during these homo debates on a regular basis..
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GeorgeStGeorge
From this, I infer that you consider Lingo and Eagle (and, probably, me) to be dishonorable. I do not disagree that Daryl is honorable. It takes courage to stand up for what one believes in the face of animosity, but I would contend that Lingo and Eagle are honorable for the same reason. Nor is it compassionless to point out someone's error. It's not a matter of condemnation, because there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. There still is sin, however; and we are called to reprove the works of darkness. On the other hand, there is no point in beating this horse anymore. In the short time I've been with Greasespot, every time homosexuality is mentioned (no matter how tangentially), the war of words begins anew. I think it's safe to say that Daryl and Trefor and the others will not be swayed from their homosexuality; nor will Jonny, Eagle, I, and others be convinced that it's all right.
So...How about those Astros!
;)-->
George
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excathedra
it appears you are always here on the other side jonny
i don't want the love of your god
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excathedra
nor eagle's or georgie's
you smartie pants, i can't wait 'til we meet "him" face to face
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excathedra
don't worry ExWayDaryl
they find comfort in their god
i find comfort in yours and mine
you all are jerks
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GarthP2000
So-o-o, what's your point?
Amen to that Ex.
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J0nny Ling0
Daryl and Trefor,
Were we to work together, for the same company let's say, I think you would be surprised to find out how tolerant I would be of you, were I to come across the knowledge that you are gay. I wouldn't bring it up nor comment on it, unless my opinion were sought by you, and even then, I would simply state that I don't support the lifestyle, and I would probably tell you why. I would only take exception were you to try and push some agenda on me, or, if you were to be attracted to me in a gay sort of way, and do whatever gay guys do to try and "get some".
It comes up here more easily and with more "gusto", because this is a discussion forum, and for the most part we are anonymous to eachother. But really, aside from our obvious contrary beliefs, I find you guys to be respectful in your arguments for the most part, and when your passion for your belief causes some running off at the mouth, as does happen with me, I accept that also. But with you, Daryl, this is the first I remember debating this broad subject with you being involved, and I haven't seen you be anything but decent in your suppositions and responses.
Hey, Peace and love and a happy New Year...
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J0nny Ling0
Excathedra! You called me a jerk!
:(-->
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