quote:And why is there so much disdain, disrespect and disparagement for your brothers and sisters in Christ who think that its ok to be identified with the risen Christ and not wanting to tolerate suffering? (Question #3)
Romans 8:35-37
IN all these things we are more than conquerors. Not OVER all these things, but IN them.
Philippians 4:12-14
Paul SUFFERED. A lot. The early church SUFFERED a great deal. How arrogant to think we've got a pass from suffering because Christ suffered. We identify with the risen Christ even in our suffering. There's no Biblical pass from suffering, and if you don't want to tolerate suffering, you chose the wrong walk.
Oldies pointed out that Wierwille wrote, "The enemies of the cross of Christ are those who do not believe or accept what Jesus did."
Was Wierwille biblically accurate?
*****
Philippians 3:17 "Brethren, be followers [imitators] together of me [Paul], and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 "(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 "Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)"
*****
There is a figure of speech in verse 19, where the end is put first, and the slippery slope is presented in reverse order.
The enemies of the cross of Christ begin by minding earthly things, literally "things upon the earth"... earthly titles, like "Dr."... earthly rewards, like money and adulation... earthly results... These are what enemies of the cross of Christ start by thinking about, and by setting their minds upon.
"...whose glory is in their shame..." Enemies of the cross of Christ take pride in things they ought to be ashamed of. This first came home to me in considering "Athletes of the Spirit". If you review the tapes you'll find that nearly the very first words, and nearly the very last as well, are "We are proud...". The overweening pride and arrogance of TWI didn't spring full-grown with Martindale. He learned it from VPW. Wierwille and his followers, myself included for a time, took pride in derogating the cross and what it means to people. We should have been ashamed.
"...whose God is their belly..." Enemies of the cross of Christ take the parts of their lives that should be dedicated to the worship of God, and devote those parts instead to the satisfaction of carnal appetites. Does this ring any bells?
"Whose end is destruction... " What the enemies of the cross of Christ do comes to nothing but loss. The things they build are worthless, and do not stand. Where is TWI now? Where is it going? It IS what Wierwille built.
Wierwille wrote, "The enemies of the cross of Christ are those who do not believe or accept what Jesus did."
According to Hebrews 8 and 9, through his sacrifice on the cross, Jesus mediated the New Covenant. By negating the New Covenant through teaching erroneous dispensationalism, by teaching that Hebrews and other parts of the New Testament are parts we can safely ignore, Wierwille demonstrated that intellectually and doctrinally, he DID NOT understand, believe, or accept what Jesus did.
Raf, I had a long post all ready to go and reread the last page and danged if you didn't say the same thing. *delete*.
It's really an "action speaks louder than words" thing for me when we get down to cases.
Unfortunately, I see little connection between the "cross of Christ", the miracle of salvation and the lifestyle he lived of anger, rebelliousness and adultery. When I was young, it attracted me, and perhaps for the wrong reasons. As I matured, I realized we ain't gettin' nowhere like this.
The fact that so many ministers, so called, have similar problems doesn't lead me to believe that it has to be that way, just that the field of endeavor has both weeds and flowers.
Evan, a little "topic creep" music please...!
Its' so very far away, takes about a half a day to get there,
quote: Enemies of the cross of Christ take the parts of their lives that should be dedicated to the worship of God, and devote those parts instead to the satisfaction of carnal appetites. Does this ring any bells?
wow, Steve, I think you pretty much summed it up right there.
Socks, You have such a way of putting things...so that they are easy to "get."
Y'know, in terms of symbols, the cross is a good one. Like the biblical references to the cross, it speaks to the whole of the event of the crucifixion itself, as well as what Christians believe it means. Even though it's so commonplace, it begs the question, "what's that mean?" For a Christian, it's more than a 10 word answer.
The dove too, is a good symbol. I've seen some neat little thingies that are images of the cross, with a dove on the top or arm, about to take flight.
And the tomb, with the cover/stone rolled away to the side is a powerful image. Death, and it's place, overcome.
As Coolwaters said, the giving of oneself for a reason isn't unique to Jesus. "Greater love hath no man" indeed than to give all for a reason and many do so in life and in death. From the standpoint of the biblical writers, it was the series of events of his life, death and resurrection that came full circle on the day of Pentecost.
One of the coolest pictures I saw was in an ad for a poster, several years back. It was of a young girl, littly tyke, and she's standing there looking up at someone, Jesus, with a worried look on her face as she holds his open hand showing the huge scar on the palm. In the caption she's saying "What happened to your hand?"
It's very poignant, especially when you consider what his answer to that situation might have been.
It's a state of mind, isn't it? An attitude of true gratitude. We have redemption in Christ, but that redemption isn't fully realized yet with this "token" we have today, but we have this sacrifice for sin in Jesus's death and the wholeness that it allows today and in the future. In the future, we "know as we are known". Today, the humanity of our spirituality is to our benefit when we live in the midst of this "saving grace."
Its' so very far away, takes about a half a day to get there,
Very cool, Danny. YOu reminded me of omething I'd all but forgotten about, a friend years ago in Florida who was looking into symbol ideas and came up with the anchor, and anchored cross. He was so excited! "This is a great image!" He made some drawings and things from it. Cool info, thanks!
Its' so very far away, takes about a half a day to get there,
I've been toying with a hypothesis the past couple of years that Christianity may have started out or developed into a religion primarily of ancient seafarers. In the same sense that the contemporary movement of Mithraism was popular amongst soldiers.
It certainly might offer one possibility how it spread so widely and rapidly throughout the then known world. I'm speculating that sailors found the gospel quite appealing, considering that Jesus chose to make disciples out of fishermen, of all professions. Something they strongly identified with. I can only imagine that amidst violent storms, seafarers found great comfort in the tale of Jesus stilling the storm.
Danny
[This message was edited by TheInvisibleDan on December 03, 2003 at 21:37.]
Ex10, sorry that I'm so late on getting back to you. And I'm sorry that I upset you. For the record, you're right, I did have attitude as in, "I'm here and allowed to talk too, right?," and I'm sorry for that.
Why did I have attitude? I thought I perceived attitude in the beginning of your post, ?I don't think anybody here is talking about "letting the horror of the cross obscure the joy..." I could only infer from that post that you believe that I think someone here IS talking about letting the horror of the cross obscure the joy. That places me in an extremely awkward position here with people I love. I was trying not to make it personal. The only objection I was referring to at that point was where Kit made the unqualified statement that she echo?d with Paul (I Cor 1:2) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. Kit qualified her statement in her next post, and I was fine with that.
The rest of my post was pretty straightforward. I think perhaps my attitude I my first statement made it hard for you to read what else I said at face value. Maybe you can read it again. I think the points are important and valid, and I can't think of any clearer way of saying what I said.
To answer your question, "How do you explain II Corinthians 7:8-11? the key verse being verse 10: "Godly sorrow (over sin) brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret..."?
That section of II Corinthians is speaking about the reaction of the people of Corinth to I Corinthians in which Paul determined not to preach anything to them except the cross of Christ because they couldn't hear anything more because they were carnal and divisive. That's why one would determine to preach nothing other than the cross of Christ and godly sorrow over sin is the appropriate response. Then through the cross we come to the realization that we died, were buried, and rose with Christ. Now, we are to seek those things which are above where Christ sits at the right hand of God, our life being in him. Not that we should forget the cross of Christ for we still sin.
Actually, I believe that, in a practical sense, it is when we are walking in the light that the blood of Christ is cleansing us from all sin. That is how we stay clean in our walk. It is a continual cleansing - through his blood and his present spiritual activity within based on that blood. But it is still the vision of the hope before our eyes that is our polestar.
Hebrews 12:2 Â looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
It's all there. I agree with you that the post of Yan... was very insightful. If we walk in the light, we experience his suffering. It is the suffering of all - we feel their pain; nevertheless, it is different in the sense that Jesus didn't have to feel our pain. He did take it upon himself when he didn't have to. And besides our pain, he didn't have to feel the pain that is leveled upon those who walk godly. He took that also. We don't have to take that, but if we do walk, we will - in the continual assurance that he suffered likewise before us, and that if we suffer as he did, we will likewise share in his glory.
I've been pretty wimpy along these lines since I left TWI, not wanting to suffer simply to fill the bank accounts of those who'd rather not suffer - at my expense.
God has been amazingly gracious about the whole thing - still building within.
May we see godliness in any future suffering with joy before our face.
Thanks for the comments. Just to let you know, I wasn't "upset" by any of your posts, I just didn't understand where you are coming from. And honestly, I probably still don't. :(-->
But that's ok. We all have different perspectives. It simply seemed to me that you were "correcting" some of the posters, moi included, who think differently than you do. I asked you what I did because I wanted to know if I was misunderstanding what you were trying to say. Which would not be the first time, I assure you. :)-->
I'm really not into everybody agreeing on everything around here, simply because that's not real life. And I'm still interested in shedding the protective armour of false doctrine that once kept me "in the dark."
Sometimes following Jesus as my Lord leads me into places I'd rather not go. Those are the times that I "remember the cross." And yeah, I understand about the joy etc. in the future and am eagerly looking forward to the day when our redemtion is complete. But in the meantime, I live in a fallen world, full of sin and suffering and I need help dealing with it in the here and now.
As wonderful as the ressurection and return are, they lose their meaning without the suffering and endurance of the cross. You can't have one, without the other. As always, just my opinion.
this thread started when I was very much IN twi. after reading it, I have several things on my mind:
for an organization that obsessively rejected traditional symbolism, they gave what seemed to be at least equal time in obsessively constructing their own set of symbols and aesthetic rules. the meanings of colors and numbers ruled the backdrop of every production, class, branch and limb meeting I was ever involved with, to a degree that I would consider religious by twi's own definition of religion. even the number of each kind of flower in the arrangements at the podium had spiritual significance, for the love of pete.
now, on to the cross... the cross is an ancient archetype that symbolizes different things depending on culture and religion. because the cross is an archetype, I don't think of it as an exclusively christian symbol. because it's an archetype, it has subconscious appeal that has nothing to do with religion. I learned about the cross symbol before I ever heard of twi. the cross is always a stylized symbol for something, and if christians want to use it as a symbol for the cross christ bore, it's no one's business to judge them. the fact that it's a stylized symbol explains the variations, including some of the very ornate variations in jewelry and art.
I never felt comfortable with twi's rabid rejection of the cross because it was "a symbol of death" even though, as a good little minion, I carried out their orders to talk people out of wearing them.
A topic was posted in "silly" referring to a Mexican edition of Playboy magazine that ridiculed the Virgin Mary.
My opinion is that twi through ridicule desensitized us to others' religious beliefs. Since becoming more "into" the Holy Spirit and listening for His take on things, I am coming to see that one's religious sense is at the core of a person, and to ridicule a person's view of God is most foolish.
The greatest harm to someone who ridicules a view of God is that his own spiritual sensitivity is hardened, encased.
The Holy Spirit is truly a breath of fresh air, and as we become more sensitive we can feel His breath -- in the cool of the day so to speak.
I love the cross / the crucifix because of it's work to keep me mindful of the price He paid for us.
Two of my favorite crosses are produced by the Voice of the Martyrs, at persecution.com, who defend the prisoners and their families (persecution of Christians did not end at the Coliseum )
-- a cross made out of horseshoe nails on a leather thong.
-- a beaten silver fish shape with a crown of thorns "crossbar" on a leather thong.
(I don't really have a collection of crosses -- it seems that when I find one I like, I wear it until I lose it somehow, really disgraceful. :( )
A topic was posted in "silly" referring to a Mexican edition of Playboy magazine that ridiculed the Virgin Mary.
My opinion is that twi through ridicule desensitized us to others' religious beliefs. Since becoming more "into" the Holy Spirit and listening for His take on things, I am coming to see that one's religious sense is at the core of a person, and to ridicule a person's view of God is most foolish.
The greatest harm to someone who ridicules a view of God is that his own spiritual sensitivity is hardened, encased.
The Holy Spirit is truly a breath of fresh air, and as we become more sensitive we can feel His breath -- in the cool of the day so to speak.
I love the cross / the crucifix because of it's work to keep me mindful of the price He paid for us.
Two of my favorite crosses are produced by the Voice of the Martyrs, at persecution.com, who defend the prisoners and their families (persecution of Christians did not end at the Coliseum )
-- a cross made out of horseshoe nails on a leather thong.
-- a beaten silver fish shape with a crown of thorns "crossbar" on a leather thong.
(I don't really have a collection of crosses -- it seems that when I find one I like, I wear it until I lose it somehow, really disgraceful. :( )
Kit,
Thanks so much for all your comments on here. . . I love Oswald Chambers as well. . . I also want to thank you so much for your mention of VOM. I worked on a few things with them. . . my son runs their promos on his radio show. . . they are a wonderful group of Christians.
If anyone really wants to learn more about the persecuted church and how to help VOM the website Kit posted is a great place to go. How quickly my silly troubles fade once I focus my efforts there.
A humbling and rewarding experience. . . serving the prisoners and persecuted faithful.
As for this thread. . . ex-10 made some of the best comments and observations I have read on GSC. It is so amazing to read someone delivered from TWI's teachings.
Kit thank you again. Remember the persecuted church in your prayers!!
I just wanted to add an ancillary comment about guilt. Hopefully it's not too far off track.
I think there is a balance between ignoring the blood-guiltiness of mankind and wallowing in it. I heard a sermon* today on guilt. He said that guilt is seen in today's culture as resolved by behavior modification, when it is a need for a new heart ("create in me a new heart, oh God). We are guilty and we need to feel guilty and there is no hope for us except in the cross of Christ.
I left wanting to kill myself or at least flagellate myself to a bloody pulp.
I have felt entirely without God and without hope in this world since 1994 when I was diagnosed with IDDM and then in 1996 when we left TWI, and then in 2007 when I took the Secrets of the Vine class.
Very few people who enjoy preaching on sin and guilt enjoy preaching on salvation.
There has to be a balance. I am sick and tired of having this stuff thrown in my face.
*In all fairness, this is the beginning of a series and there may well be a sermon on salvation and joy in the future.
Wow. Someone emailed me and told me to look at this old thread. That same someone wanted to know my response, all these years later. It's summed up in one verse, that came to mind as I reread: I Corinthisans 1:18.
18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
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Raf
Romans 8:35-37
IN all these things we are more than conquerors. Not OVER all these things, but IN them.
Philippians 4:12-14
Paul SUFFERED. A lot. The early church SUFFERED a great deal. How arrogant to think we've got a pass from suffering because Christ suffered. We identify with the risen Christ even in our suffering. There's no Biblical pass from suffering, and if you don't want to tolerate suffering, you chose the wrong walk.
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Steve Lortz
I've been away for awhile. It's good to be back.
Oldies pointed out that Wierwille wrote, "The enemies of the cross of Christ are those who do not believe or accept what Jesus did."
Was Wierwille biblically accurate?
*****
Philippians 3:17 "Brethren, be followers [imitators] together of me [Paul], and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 "(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 "Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)"
*****
There is a figure of speech in verse 19, where the end is put first, and the slippery slope is presented in reverse order.
The enemies of the cross of Christ begin by minding earthly things, literally "things upon the earth"... earthly titles, like "Dr."... earthly rewards, like money and adulation... earthly results... These are what enemies of the cross of Christ start by thinking about, and by setting their minds upon.
"...whose glory is in their shame..." Enemies of the cross of Christ take pride in things they ought to be ashamed of. This first came home to me in considering "Athletes of the Spirit". If you review the tapes you'll find that nearly the very first words, and nearly the very last as well, are "We are proud...". The overweening pride and arrogance of TWI didn't spring full-grown with Martindale. He learned it from VPW. Wierwille and his followers, myself included for a time, took pride in derogating the cross and what it means to people. We should have been ashamed.
"...whose God is their belly..." Enemies of the cross of Christ take the parts of their lives that should be dedicated to the worship of God, and devote those parts instead to the satisfaction of carnal appetites. Does this ring any bells?
"Whose end is destruction... " What the enemies of the cross of Christ do comes to nothing but loss. The things they build are worthless, and do not stand. Where is TWI now? Where is it going? It IS what Wierwille built.
Wierwille wrote, "The enemies of the cross of Christ are those who do not believe or accept what Jesus did."
According to Hebrews 8 and 9, through his sacrifice on the cross, Jesus mediated the New Covenant. By negating the New Covenant through teaching erroneous dispensationalism, by teaching that Hebrews and other parts of the New Testament are parts we can safely ignore, Wierwille demonstrated that intellectually and doctrinally, he DID NOT understand, believe, or accept what Jesus did.
Love,
Steve
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socks
Thanks Ex. Glad you liked it.
:)-->
Raf, I had a long post all ready to go and reread the last page and danged if you didn't say the same thing. *delete*.
It's really an "action speaks louder than words" thing for me when we get down to cases.
Unfortunately, I see little connection between the "cross of Christ", the miracle of salvation and the lifestyle he lived of anger, rebelliousness and adultery. When I was young, it attracted me, and perhaps for the wrong reasons. As I matured, I realized we ain't gettin' nowhere like this.
The fact that so many ministers, so called, have similar problems doesn't lead me to believe that it has to be that way, just that the field of endeavor has both weeds and flowers.
Evan, a little "topic creep" music please...!
Its' so very far away, takes about a half a day to get there,
If we travel by my dragonfly....
(Jimi)
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ex10
Well, thanks for understanding my point, Raf. Please check your privates. Ooops,
I mean your private topics.
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ex10
wow, Steve, I think you pretty much summed it up right there.
Socks, You have such a way of putting things...so that they are easy to "get."
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socks
Y'know, in terms of symbols, the cross is a good one. Like the biblical references to the cross, it speaks to the whole of the event of the crucifixion itself, as well as what Christians believe it means. Even though it's so commonplace, it begs the question, "what's that mean?" For a Christian, it's more than a 10 word answer.
The dove too, is a good symbol. I've seen some neat little thingies that are images of the cross, with a dove on the top or arm, about to take flight.
And the tomb, with the cover/stone rolled away to the side is a powerful image. Death, and it's place, overcome.
As Coolwaters said, the giving of oneself for a reason isn't unique to Jesus. "Greater love hath no man" indeed than to give all for a reason and many do so in life and in death. From the standpoint of the biblical writers, it was the series of events of his life, death and resurrection that came full circle on the day of Pentecost.
One of the coolest pictures I saw was in an ad for a poster, several years back. It was of a young girl, littly tyke, and she's standing there looking up at someone, Jesus, with a worried look on her face as she holds his open hand showing the huge scar on the palm. In the caption she's saying "What happened to your hand?"
It's very poignant, especially when you consider what his answer to that situation might have been.
It's a state of mind, isn't it? An attitude of true gratitude. We have redemption in Christ, but that redemption isn't fully realized yet with this "token" we have today, but we have this sacrifice for sin in Jesus's death and the wholeness that it allows today and in the future. In the future, we "know as we are known". Today, the humanity of our spirituality is to our benefit when we live in the midst of this "saving grace."
Its' so very far away, takes about a half a day to get there,
If we travel by my dragonfly....
(Jimi)
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TheInvisibleDan
Here are a couple links that might be of great interest here, while on the subject of the cross and Christian symbols:
http://www.bright.net/~gray0013/symbols/symbols.html
http://home.rochester.rr.com/gocek/images/christn/
I find the early Christian mariner symbols
( e.g., the cross depicted as an anchor, the church as a ship) to be particularly fascinating.
Danny
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socks
Very cool, Danny. YOu reminded me of omething I'd all but forgotten about, a friend years ago in Florida who was looking into symbol ideas and came up with the anchor, and anchored cross. He was so excited! "This is a great image!" He made some drawings and things from it. Cool info, thanks!
Its' so very far away, takes about a half a day to get there,
If we travel by my dragonfly....
(Jimi)
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TheInvisibleDan
Thank you, Socks. I'm glad you enjoyed the links.
I've been toying with a hypothesis the past couple of years that Christianity may have started out or developed into a religion primarily of ancient seafarers. In the same sense that the contemporary movement of Mithraism was popular amongst soldiers.
It certainly might offer one possibility how it spread so widely and rapidly throughout the then known world. I'm speculating that sailors found the gospel quite appealing, considering that Jesus chose to make disciples out of fishermen, of all professions. Something they strongly identified with. I can only imagine that amidst violent storms, seafarers found great comfort in the tale of Jesus stilling the storm.
Danny
[This message was edited by TheInvisibleDan on December 03, 2003 at 21:37.]
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Tom
Ex10, sorry that I'm so late on getting back to you. And I'm sorry that I upset you. For the record, you're right, I did have attitude as in, "I'm here and allowed to talk too, right?," and I'm sorry for that.
Why did I have attitude? I thought I perceived attitude in the beginning of your post, ?I don't think anybody here is talking about "letting the horror of the cross obscure the joy..." I could only infer from that post that you believe that I think someone here IS talking about letting the horror of the cross obscure the joy. That places me in an extremely awkward position here with people I love. I was trying not to make it personal. The only objection I was referring to at that point was where Kit made the unqualified statement that she echo?d with Paul (I Cor 1:2) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. Kit qualified her statement in her next post, and I was fine with that.
The rest of my post was pretty straightforward. I think perhaps my attitude I my first statement made it hard for you to read what else I said at face value. Maybe you can read it again. I think the points are important and valid, and I can't think of any clearer way of saying what I said.
To answer your question, "How do you explain II Corinthians 7:8-11? the key verse being verse 10: "Godly sorrow (over sin) brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret..."?
That section of II Corinthians is speaking about the reaction of the people of Corinth to I Corinthians in which Paul determined not to preach anything to them except the cross of Christ because they couldn't hear anything more because they were carnal and divisive. That's why one would determine to preach nothing other than the cross of Christ and godly sorrow over sin is the appropriate response. Then through the cross we come to the realization that we died, were buried, and rose with Christ. Now, we are to seek those things which are above where Christ sits at the right hand of God, our life being in him. Not that we should forget the cross of Christ for we still sin.
Actually, I believe that, in a practical sense, it is when we are walking in the light that the blood of Christ is cleansing us from all sin. That is how we stay clean in our walk. It is a continual cleansing - through his blood and his present spiritual activity within based on that blood. But it is still the vision of the hope before our eyes that is our polestar.
Hebrews 12:2 Â looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
It's all there. I agree with you that the post of Yan... was very insightful. If we walk in the light, we experience his suffering. It is the suffering of all - we feel their pain; nevertheless, it is different in the sense that Jesus didn't have to feel our pain. He did take it upon himself when he didn't have to. And besides our pain, he didn't have to feel the pain that is leveled upon those who walk godly. He took that also. We don't have to take that, but if we do walk, we will - in the continual assurance that he suffered likewise before us, and that if we suffer as he did, we will likewise share in his glory.
I've been pretty wimpy along these lines since I left TWI, not wanting to suffer simply to fill the bank accounts of those who'd rather not suffer - at my expense.
God has been amazingly gracious about the whole thing - still building within.
May we see godliness in any future suffering with joy before our face.
Tom
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ex10
Hi Tom
Thanks for the comments. Just to let you know, I wasn't "upset" by any of your posts, I just didn't understand where you are coming from. And honestly, I probably still don't.
:(-->
But that's ok. We all have different perspectives. It simply seemed to me that you were "correcting" some of the posters, moi included, who think differently than you do. I asked you what I did because I wanted to know if I was misunderstanding what you were trying to say. Which would not be the first time, I assure you.
:)-->
I'm really not into everybody agreeing on everything around here, simply because that's not real life. And I'm still interested in shedding the protective armour of false doctrine that once kept me "in the dark."
Sometimes following Jesus as my Lord leads me into places I'd rather not go. Those are the times that I "remember the cross." And yeah, I understand about the joy etc. in the future and am eagerly looking forward to the day when our redemtion is complete. But in the meantime, I live in a fallen world, full of sin and suffering and I need help dealing with it in the here and now.
As wonderful as the ressurection and return are, they lose their meaning without the suffering and endurance of the cross. You can't have one, without the other. As always, just my opinion.
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ex10
I'm trying to bump this thread up, per request. I hope it works. :)
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Belle
more pertinent information on the unwritten policies of TWI and the ignorance of those who continue to justify them.
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cheranne
Bumping this up just found it.
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waysider
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=405
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Tzaia
You mean the idea of calling the cross "the devil's dog whistle?"
I have a hard time wearing symbolic jewelry of any kind, except for the kind that says my husband or I dropped a wad of cash on some jewelry.
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potato
this thread started when I was very much IN twi. after reading it, I have several things on my mind:
for an organization that obsessively rejected traditional symbolism, they gave what seemed to be at least equal time in obsessively constructing their own set of symbols and aesthetic rules. the meanings of colors and numbers ruled the backdrop of every production, class, branch and limb meeting I was ever involved with, to a degree that I would consider religious by twi's own definition of religion. even the number of each kind of flower in the arrangements at the podium had spiritual significance, for the love of pete.
now, on to the cross... the cross is an ancient archetype that symbolizes different things depending on culture and religion. because the cross is an archetype, I don't think of it as an exclusively christian symbol. because it's an archetype, it has subconscious appeal that has nothing to do with religion. I learned about the cross symbol before I ever heard of twi. the cross is always a stylized symbol for something, and if christians want to use it as a symbol for the cross christ bore, it's no one's business to judge them. the fact that it's a stylized symbol explains the variations, including some of the very ornate variations in jewelry and art.
I never felt comfortable with twi's rabid rejection of the cross because it was "a symbol of death" even though, as a good little minion, I carried out their orders to talk people out of wearing them.
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Kit Sober
A topic was posted in "silly" referring to a Mexican edition of Playboy magazine that ridiculed the Virgin Mary.
My opinion is that twi through ridicule desensitized us to others' religious beliefs. Since becoming more "into" the Holy Spirit and listening for His take on things, I am coming to see that one's religious sense is at the core of a person, and to ridicule a person's view of God is most foolish.
The greatest harm to someone who ridicules a view of God is that his own spiritual sensitivity is hardened, encased.
The Holy Spirit is truly a breath of fresh air, and as we become more sensitive we can feel His breath -- in the cool of the day so to speak.
I love the cross / the crucifix because of it's work to keep me mindful of the price He paid for us.
Two of my favorite crosses are produced by the Voice of the Martyrs, at persecution.com, who defend the prisoners and their families (persecution of Christians did not end at the Coliseum
)
-- a cross made out of horseshoe nails on a leather thong.
-- a beaten silver fish shape with a crown of thorns "crossbar" on a leather thong.
(I don't really have a collection of crosses -- it seems that when I find one I like, I wear it until I lose it somehow, really disgraceful. :( )
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cheranne
I would rather wear a cross than a stupid wow pin or twi nametag! ANYDAY.
Talk about the foolishness of twi.
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geisha779
Kit,
Thanks so much for all your comments on here. . . I love Oswald Chambers as well. . . I also want to thank you so much for your mention of VOM. I worked on a few things with them. . . my son runs their promos on his radio show. . . they are a wonderful group of Christians.
If anyone really wants to learn more about the persecuted church and how to help VOM the website Kit posted is a great place to go. How quickly my silly troubles fade once I focus my efforts there.
A humbling and rewarding experience. . . serving the prisoners and persecuted faithful.
As for this thread. . . ex-10 made some of the best comments and observations I have read on GSC. It is so amazing to read someone delivered from TWI's teachings.
Kit thank you again. Remember the persecuted church in your prayers!!
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Watered Garden
I just wanted to add an ancillary comment about guilt. Hopefully it's not too far off track.
I think there is a balance between ignoring the blood-guiltiness of mankind and wallowing in it. I heard a sermon* today on guilt. He said that guilt is seen in today's culture as resolved by behavior modification, when it is a need for a new heart ("create in me a new heart, oh God). We are guilty and we need to feel guilty and there is no hope for us except in the cross of Christ.
I left wanting to kill myself or at least flagellate myself to a bloody pulp.
I have felt entirely without God and without hope in this world since 1994 when I was diagnosed with IDDM and then in 1996 when we left TWI, and then in 2007 when I took the Secrets of the Vine class.
Very few people who enjoy preaching on sin and guilt enjoy preaching on salvation.
There has to be a balance. I am sick and tired of having this stuff thrown in my face.
*In all fairness, this is the beginning of a series and there may well be a sermon on salvation and joy in the future.
WG
Won't get fooled again!
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ex10
Wow. Someone emailed me and told me to look at this old thread. That same someone wanted to know my response, all these years later. It's summed up in one verse, that came to mind as I reread: I Corinthisans 1:18.
18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Amen.
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Watered Garden
And Amen from me too!
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