When I am forgiven I always wonder why. It is an amazing life to live know Jesus As Lord and His love and dedication to my well being. when I remember I fail Him is when i think and realize He never did make a mistake or disobey and yet he suffered so much.
so we are face to face with the truth of Gods LoVE.
In the way it was all about not to worry it was covered no problem do not think about it again. They spoke of sin like it was to be a natural part of life like having a glass of water. It isnt I do not believe sin is to be looked on as a casual part of life..
When I grew to know who it was that was dealing with me and the evil that is in this world , I found a man so capable of being greater than sinning in any way because He loved me that much.
he had a life He had friends He didnt want to die Im certain, yet He did knowing He would be able to do better for all of us in the rescurected body. I could never say Jesus christ doesnt understand pain or hurt or anything we go through in this life He does more than any of us he took all the feelings and pain and sin on for us. that was his life for us to lay down his life. the cross is the measure of His love and how very much Jesus as a man loved each of us and God. In His resurected body he is more than King of king He is exalted but it was alot of hurt that got him to that point and I remember that whenever I try to think it isnt worth following Him.
2nd Bubba 3:2 Therefore shalt thou sport the raiment of black, learn but three chords on the acoustic gee-tar, and talk real, real low. This do ye in remembrance of me.
sometimes in unpredictable ways but any average thinking adult, even athiersts, knows that
we were born into a world where people do
bad things and sometimes those people are yourself and/or perhaps your friends
All this to say that I don't know that by
downplaying the Cross that people are going
to forget about what Christ accomplished.
I've known several denominations who don't
mind the Dove symbol at all and there seems
to be no particular "fetish" for the Cross
though many sanctuaries have them.
I always saw the Way's attitides towards the
cross as a method to distance themselves from
mainstream christianity. I had bible with a little cross on it and I took it to twig. No one said much about it though over time, I removed it, simly because I didn't see anyone
I now wear a cross because of 3 reasons: (in order of importance)
1. Acknowledgment that I am a Christian
2. Anything the way hated has to be good
3. They are in fashion and many are cool looking
In etymology class in high school, I learned that the root word crux, meaning cross, is also where the word excruciating comes from-- that death on the cross is the most excruciating method of capital punishment.
Jesus paid for my forgiveness by his death unto the cross and that kind of love seems beyond human comprehension. The longer I am out of twi the more I see who Jesus was and is.
Great post. I think we minimalized the Jesus factor in TWI. He became a tag at the end of a prayer.
When I spoke with that minister from Greece who prayed for me, he and I talked about a church (TWI) who would fade Christ and the importance of the cross to the background, was anti-christ (in a way).
It jolted me at what I had done to Jesus in my own life! I had made him "in the name of Jesus Christ Amen." That had become my whole relationship with him. It was very revealing.
quote: Never build your case for forgiveness on the idea that God is our Father and He will forgive us because He loves us.
That contradicts the revealed truth of God in Jesus Christ. It makes the Cross unnecessary, and the redemption ?much ado about nothing.? . . .
there is the story about how when asked how much Jesus loved us, the little girl stretched out her hands as far as she could -- and said, "this much."
Maybe a better understanding is to see the crucifixion as how much God hates our sin.
Seeing the cross and how it demonstrates hatred for the hypocricy of sin encourages holiness.
I don't think the hypocricy of sin could have abounded in twi -- and thereby the His-story of that place and of us could have run a different course.
But here we are:)-->
And, I'm thankful now for the Cross even more than before twi.
Maybe seeing the vile thing that twi has become is a living witness that, indeed Christianity needs to remember, as Paul the Apostle learned and then wrote, (The Message version) "I deliberately kept it plain and simple: first Jesus and who he is; then Jesus and what he did?Jesus crucified."
Kit and all: I see what Oswald is saying but my Bible, which I hold in higher esteem than Oswald, or any other, says quite plainly " For GOD so LOVED the world that HE GAVE....." and you know the rest.
I will simply not downgrade God, Who IS LOVE, to promote what I may think is a problem in Christianity or among Christians. What brought Jesus to the cross--his hatred for sin or his love for God?? which is stronger, hatred of sin or love for/of GOD? Who authored sin; who authored love?? Who is stronger, who will prevail??
I wore a cross necklace, during my time spent in TWI, which was given to me by my mother. When she gave it to me she told me something like,"This is given to you as a daily reminder of Gods' love for you."
I was never told directly not to wear my necklace, however, crude remarks were made about people who had a cross necklace, bookmarks with a cross on them, pictures of Jesus on the cross, were worshipping them as a symbol. To have them was un-godly...
Well, I had the opportunity to speak my opinion to a couple ladies about my cross necklace and let them know that not all people think and do as the way thinks they do...
Also, never knew how they got Christ's--massacre out of Christmas....
Can someone give me a tip as to where this came from? (Not to change the thread)
What comes to mind for me is that when Jesus was about to face "the cross" ie. his upcoming suffering and death, he shared a meal with those closest to him, asking them to "do this in remembrance of me." Seems to me that he didn't want us his followers to forget or downplay the events that were unfolding as he spoke?
Obviously, what the cross represents is more important than a physical depiction of the cross: Jesus' incredible sacrifice, God's unfathomable love, full payment for mankind's sins, and so much, much more.
I don't care much one way or the other about crosses (i.e., the ones you see on steeples and at fronts of churches and on necklaces). If you want to wear or display 'em, that's fine with me, and if you don't, that's fine too. Not having a cross around never made me stop thinking about how wonderful Jesus was and is or how loving (thanks, Alfa) God was and is.
I was impressed with most of what you posted, Kit - with exactly the same reservations that Alfa expressed - thanks to you both.
I conducted a little experiment a while back and asked the first two people I saw wearing a cross why they were wearing it (admittedly not a very representative # of people to ask). Neither of them were Christian; they were both just wearing it because it looked cool. So what? I don't know.
The cross of Christ is awesome, but I think some people do have an unhealthy focus on death and a judgmental attitude toward sin in the name of the cross of Christ. God IS so loving that he gave, and to throw stones at sinners in the name of the cross of the only one who had the right to throw stones and endured the cross instead is the ultimate irony of the religious. I know we all got burned by those who used grace for an excuse to sin, but don't kid yourself; we all still sin. Jesus didn't die so that we could all go about in a state of hatred about what each other does that is not right on.
Jesus endured the cross for the joy that was set before him. To let the horror of the cross obscure the joy does insult to Jesus' motivation for doing what he did and the love of the Father who so loved that he gave. IT is an unconscious blasphemy.
Paul determined to preach nothing other than Christ crucified because the people he was preaching to didn't yet know the power of God that, by means of the cross of Christ, opens the soul of the sinner to the incredible love of his sacrifice, allowing the sinner to die with him and be born again into the life of the resurrected Christ at the right hand of God beyond the veil of the temple. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Not seeing he ever dieth, but liveth.
Let's not have the same remembrance of sins that was made every year by the sacrifices of the law. We have a better sacrifice. Let's have; therefore, "boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus...by a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh," so that we might rather have "our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience," and "consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works."
Saide -- I also had a cross that was given to me by a dear friend, and the last time I was at HQ one who had been most precious to my life (I sponsored her in corpse) tried to rip it off.
hatred for sin / love of God -- I now don't think you can divorce the two. I now see sin as hypocricy to the face of God.
quote: Tom: Paul determined to preach nothing other than Christ crucified because the people he was preaching to didn't yet know the power of God ....
I agree, but I guess we see the entrance into the power of God differently.
The cross, when every drop of the Savior's blood was poured into the world is heaven's gate -- the better sacrifice.
The sinner who dies with Jesus needs to know (ginosko), for example, the 7 ways he bled to purchase our freedom
:)-->His bruises, inside bleeding, for our iniquities,
:)-->His stripes for our healing,
:)-->He bled from His hands for our wicked deeds,
:)--> bled from His head for our wicked thoughts,
:)--> all His blood poured onto the ground to redeem the curse on the land --
This is the scrifice we must know and remember.
The soul of the sinner is opened to the incredible love of His sacrifice, but the sinner needs to know the Cross.
The guy who wrote Amazing Grace saw this. Christians I have come to admire know the cross as the skeleton of their life.
I can understand the "I don't know" response to the inquiry, "Why do you wear a cross?J"
If someone asked me why I wore a cross, I might say I don't know, because I don't.
(Also I no longer feel obligated to reply to intrusions into my soul.)
For me, at the scene of the crucifixion, I most identify with the malefactor who looked full in His wonderful face and saw his Lord and his God, and he hoped to be remembered when He comes into His kingdom. Me, too.
:)-->," God
[This message was edited by Kit Sober on November 22, 2003 at 11:52.]
I don't think anybody here is talking about "letting the horror of the cross obsure the joy..."
Isn't it true that it's in our brokenness that the love of God our Father and Jesus our Saviour enter in?
I think I understand perfectly what Kit is saying. To really appreciate the sacrificial love of Jesus Christ, we must understand how sinful and lost we really are/were. It's the understanding the price of sin that drives us to enter into the holiness of the Almighty, as Kit mentioned.
Yeah, sin is pretty ugly. But we can't be afraid to look at it, and then "turn our eyes upon Jesus.." After all, it's the horror of our own sin, and our helplessness to do anything about it, that enables us to reach out for the Loving arms of our Saviour, and to be embraced and surrounded by Him and His love.
I love what Kit quoted from Oswald Chambers because it drives my mind to consider Jesus from many different angles. I want to delve deeper in my relationship with him, and the perspective of someone else can help me do that at times.
I'm always amazed at how quickly we exwayfers can dismiss provocative words from other Chrisitans of proven Christlike character.
I don't think anybody here is talking about "letting the horror of the cross obsure the joy..."
Sure someone is; I am. I'm here and allowed to talk too, right? I never said anyone here was talking about letting the horror of the cross obsure the joy, as in, "Hey let's let the horror obscure the joy." Whoever would say such a thing? No one would consciously do such a thing or say that such a thing ought to be done. That's why I referred to it as unconscious blasphemy. Oswald Chambers used the phrase; so can I.
quote: Isn't it true that it's in our brokenness that the love of God our Father and Jesus our Saviour enter in?
I'm not sure it is that simple. I'm all in favor of brokenness in the sense that the love of God our Father and Jesus our Saviour cannot enter into one that is full of himself, but there are many who are broken by sin, yet that is all that they are - broken. It is the gentleness of God that leads us to true repentance, not our brokenness.
quote: I think I understand perfectly what Kit is saying. To really appreciate the sacrificial love of Jesus Christ, we must understand how sinful and lost we really are/were.
Whether you have perfect understanding of what Kit is saying or not, I don't know. I didn't think perfect understanding was in any sort of supply these days. That having been said, let me say further that I am not dissing on Kit, or you for that matter; I love Kit. And I think she has an amazing ministry that she fulfills as a true soldier of Christ.
I'm just talking as I'm supposed to do in a community forum.
THAT having been said, I do not think, "To really appreciate the sacrificial love of Jesus Christ, we must understand how sinful and lost we really are/were." I think that to really appreciate how sinful and lost we really are/were, we must appreciate, no - understand, no - accept and so begin to understand the sacrificial love of Jesus Christ. It is the gentleness and longsuffering of God that leads us to true repentance, not the realization of how screwed up we are. That's backwards, legalistic, rehab group mentality. Nothing wrong with the law, nothing wrong with rehab groups; they just don't lead anyone to the repentance that the gentleness of God does. It is still pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps thinking.
quote: It's the understanding the price of sin that drives us to enter into the holiness of the Almighty, as Kit mentioned.
As I said, it is just His gentleness that leads. Already been driven; I have an immediate and strong aversion to anyone and anything that would drive me anywhere anymore. As much as I can anywhere that I am, I do my best to shake that off.
quote: Yeah, sin is pretty ugly. But we can't be afraid to look at it, and then "turn our eyes upon Jesus.." After all, it's the horror of our own sin, and our helplessness to do anything about it, that enables us to reach out for the Loving arms of our Saviour, and to be embraced and surrounded by Him and His love.
I think that all we can know about our sin is that is that it is pretty ugly, that it really sucks as a matter of fact, and that we want out, but as far as even being "afraid to look at it," and then "turn our eyes upon Jesus..," we can't even really SEE our sin until the standard of righteous living enlightens our eyes. Jesus said, "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin," and "If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin," and he hadn't even died on the cross yet.
quote: I'm always amazed at how quickly we exwayfers can dismiss provocative words from other Chrisitans of proven Christlike character.
BTW, I have nothing against preaching the cross of Christ. Preach it. I simply disagree with some where they say they do what Paul did and only preach the cross of Christ.
Paul preached a lot more than the cross of Christ. He ONLY preached the cross of Christ ONLY to the divisive who couldn't see what Christ's cross accomplished. To those who realized the untiy that Christ's sacrifice brought about, Paul taught truths concerning the one body also.
I just thought a couple of your comments sounded a wee bit condescending.
quote:I'm here and allowed to talk too, right?
quote:Whether you have perfect understanding of what Kit is saying or not, I don't know...
And in response to a comment I made:
quote: THAT having been said, I do not think, "To really appreciate the sacrificial love of Jesus Christ, we must understand how sinful and lost we really are/were." I think that to really appreciate how sinful and lost we really are/were, we must appreciate, no - understand, no - accept and so begin to understand the sacrificial love of Jesus Christ. It is the gentleness and longsuffering of God that leads us to true repentance, not the realization of how screwed up we are. That's backwards, legalistic, rehab group mentality. Nothing wrong with the law, nothing wrong with rehab groups; they just don't lead anyone to the repentance that the gentleness of God does. It is still pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps thinking.
Was this not attitude? Did I misunderstand you?
How do you explain II Corinthians 7:8-11? the key verse being verse 10: "Godly sorrow (over sin) brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret..."?
[This message was edited by ex10 on November 22, 2003 at 21:37.]
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mj412
yep.
When I am forgiven I always wonder why. It is an amazing life to live know Jesus As Lord and His love and dedication to my well being. when I remember I fail Him is when i think and realize He never did make a mistake or disobey and yet he suffered so much.
so we are face to face with the truth of Gods LoVE.
In the way it was all about not to worry it was covered no problem do not think about it again. They spoke of sin like it was to be a natural part of life like having a glass of water. It isnt I do not believe sin is to be looked on as a casual part of life..
When I grew to know who it was that was dealing with me and the evil that is in this world , I found a man so capable of being greater than sinning in any way because He loved me that much.
he had a life He had friends He didnt want to die Im certain, yet He did knowing He would be able to do better for all of us in the rescurected body. I could never say Jesus christ doesnt understand pain or hurt or anything we go through in this life He does more than any of us he took all the feelings and pain and sin on for us. that was his life for us to lay down his life. the cross is the measure of His love and how very much Jesus as a man loved each of us and God. In His resurected body he is more than King of king He is exalted but it was alot of hurt that got him to that point and I remember that whenever I try to think it isnt worth following Him.
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Yanagisawa
I wear black because it has a slimming effect - but now I have a much more spiritual reason.
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excathedra
yana are you a boy or a girl ? i'm thinking i knew - boy
?
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QamiQazi
2nd Bubba 3:2 Therefore shalt thou sport the raiment of black, learn but three chords on the acoustic gee-tar, and talk real, real low. This do ye in remembrance of me.
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diazbro
Most people I know are very well aware of
their imperfections and shotcomings. Of course
this make some very insecure and they respond
sometimes in unpredictable ways but any average thinking adult, even athiersts, knows that
we were born into a world where people do
bad things and sometimes those people are yourself and/or perhaps your friends
All this to say that I don't know that by
downplaying the Cross that people are going
to forget about what Christ accomplished.
I've known several denominations who don't
mind the Dove symbol at all and there seems
to be no particular "fetish" for the Cross
though many sanctuaries have them.
I always saw the Way's attitides towards the
cross as a method to distance themselves from
mainstream christianity. I had bible with a little cross on it and I took it to twig. No one said much about it though over time, I removed it, simly because I didn't see anyone
else with one.
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Hopefull
Kit, that was lovely.
I now wear a cross because of 3 reasons: (in order of importance)
1. Acknowledgment that I am a Christian
2. Anything the way hated has to be good
3. They are in fashion and many are cool looking
In etymology class in high school, I learned that the root word crux, meaning cross, is also where the word excruciating comes from-- that death on the cross is the most excruciating method of capital punishment.
Jesus paid for my forgiveness by his death unto the cross and that kind of love seems beyond human comprehension. The longer I am out of twi the more I see who Jesus was and is.
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Dot Matrix
Kit
Great post. I think we minimalized the Jesus factor in TWI. He became a tag at the end of a prayer.
When I spoke with that minister from Greece who prayed for me, he and I talked about a church (TWI) who would fade Christ and the importance of the cross to the background, was anti-christ (in a way).
It jolted me at what I had done to Jesus in my own life! I had made him "in the name of Jesus Christ Amen." That had become my whole relationship with him. It was very revealing.
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Kit Sober
Oswald, in daily devotional for today, says,
there is the story about how when asked how much Jesus loved us, the little girl stretched out her hands as far as she could -- and said, "this much."Maybe a better understanding is to see the crucifixion as how much God hates our sin.
Seeing the cross and how it demonstrates hatred for the hypocricy of sin encourages holiness.
I don't think the hypocricy of sin could have abounded in twi -- and thereby the His-story of that place and of us could have run a different course.
But here we are
:)-->
And, I'm thankful now for the Cross even more than before twi.
Maybe seeing the vile thing that twi has become is a living witness that, indeed Christianity needs to remember, as Paul the Apostle learned and then wrote, (The Message version) "I deliberately kept it plain and simple: first Jesus and who he is; then Jesus and what he did?Jesus crucified."
Hopefully,
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alfakat
Kit and all: I see what Oswald is saying but my Bible, which I hold in higher esteem than Oswald, or any other, says quite plainly " For GOD so LOVED the world that HE GAVE....." and you know the rest.
I will simply not downgrade God, Who IS LOVE, to promote what I may think is a problem in Christianity or among Christians. What brought Jesus to the cross--his hatred for sin or his love for God?? which is stronger, hatred of sin or love for/of GOD? Who authored sin; who authored love?? Who is stronger, who will prevail??
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sadie
I wore a cross necklace, during my time spent in TWI, which was given to me by my mother. When she gave it to me she told me something like,"This is given to you as a daily reminder of Gods' love for you."
I was never told directly not to wear my necklace, however, crude remarks were made about people who had a cross necklace, bookmarks with a cross on them, pictures of Jesus on the cross, were worshipping them as a symbol. To have them was un-godly...
Well, I had the opportunity to speak my opinion to a couple ladies about my cross necklace and let them know that not all people think and do as the way thinks they do...
Also, never knew how they got Christ's--massacre out of Christmas....
Can someone give me a tip as to where this came from? (Not to change the thread)
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ex10
Excellent points, Kit and Alfa.
What comes to mind for me is that when Jesus was about to face "the cross" ie. his upcoming suffering and death, he shared a meal with those closest to him, asking them to "do this in remembrance of me." Seems to me that he didn't want us his followers to forget or downplay the events that were unfolding as he spoke?
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year2027
_________________God
God Bless you Kit Sober
Thanks I have never throught of it like that before
It blessed ny life thanks
In Christ with love
Roy
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Linda Z
Obviously, what the cross represents is more important than a physical depiction of the cross: Jesus' incredible sacrifice, God's unfathomable love, full payment for mankind's sins, and so much, much more.
I don't care much one way or the other about crosses (i.e., the ones you see on steeples and at fronts of churches and on necklaces). If you want to wear or display 'em, that's fine with me, and if you don't, that's fine too. Not having a cross around never made me stop thinking about how wonderful Jesus was and is or how loving (thanks, Alfa) God was and is.
Linda Z
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Tom
I was impressed with most of what you posted, Kit - with exactly the same reservations that Alfa expressed - thanks to you both.
I conducted a little experiment a while back and asked the first two people I saw wearing a cross why they were wearing it (admittedly not a very representative # of people to ask). Neither of them were Christian; they were both just wearing it because it looked cool. So what? I don't know.
The cross of Christ is awesome, but I think some people do have an unhealthy focus on death and a judgmental attitude toward sin in the name of the cross of Christ. God IS so loving that he gave, and to throw stones at sinners in the name of the cross of the only one who had the right to throw stones and endured the cross instead is the ultimate irony of the religious. I know we all got burned by those who used grace for an excuse to sin, but don't kid yourself; we all still sin. Jesus didn't die so that we could all go about in a state of hatred about what each other does that is not right on.
Jesus endured the cross for the joy that was set before him. To let the horror of the cross obscure the joy does insult to Jesus' motivation for doing what he did and the love of the Father who so loved that he gave. IT is an unconscious blasphemy.
Paul determined to preach nothing other than Christ crucified because the people he was preaching to didn't yet know the power of God that, by means of the cross of Christ, opens the soul of the sinner to the incredible love of his sacrifice, allowing the sinner to die with him and be born again into the life of the resurrected Christ at the right hand of God beyond the veil of the temple. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Not seeing he ever dieth, but liveth.
Let's not have the same remembrance of sins that was made every year by the sacrifices of the law. We have a better sacrifice. Let's have; therefore, "boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus...by a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh," so that we might rather have "our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience," and "consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works."
Tom
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Linda Z
Great post, Tom. Inspiring, even.
Thank you!
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Kit Sober
Saide -- I also had a cross that was given to me by a dear friend, and the last time I was at HQ one who had been most precious to my life (I sponsored her in corpse) tried to rip it off.
hatred for sin / love of God -- I now don't think you can divorce the two. I now see sin as hypocricy to the face of God.
I agree, but I guess we see the entrance into the power of God differently.The cross, when every drop of the Savior's blood was poured into the world is heaven's gate -- the better sacrifice.
The sinner who dies with Jesus needs to know (ginosko), for example, the 7 ways he bled to purchase our freedom
This is the scrifice we must know and remember.
The soul of the sinner is opened to the incredible love of His sacrifice, but the sinner needs to know the Cross.
The guy who wrote Amazing Grace saw this. Christians I have come to admire know the cross as the skeleton of their life.
I can understand the "I don't know" response to the inquiry, "Why do you wear a cross?J"
If someone asked me why I wore a cross, I might say I don't know, because I don't.
(Also I no longer feel obligated to reply to intrusions into my soul.)
For me, at the scene of the crucifixion, I most identify with the malefactor who looked full in His wonderful face and saw his Lord and his God, and he hoped to be remembered when He comes into His kingdom. Me, too.
[This message was edited by Kit Sober on November 22, 2003 at 11:52.]
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ex10
Tom
I don't think anybody here is talking about "letting the horror of the cross obsure the joy..."
Isn't it true that it's in our brokenness that the love of God our Father and Jesus our Saviour enter in?
I think I understand perfectly what Kit is saying. To really appreciate the sacrificial love of Jesus Christ, we must understand how sinful and lost we really are/were. It's the understanding the price of sin that drives us to enter into the holiness of the Almighty, as Kit mentioned.
Yeah, sin is pretty ugly. But we can't be afraid to look at it, and then "turn our eyes upon Jesus.." After all, it's the horror of our own sin, and our helplessness to do anything about it, that enables us to reach out for the Loving arms of our Saviour, and to be embraced and surrounded by Him and His love.
I love what Kit quoted from Oswald Chambers because it drives my mind to consider Jesus from many different angles. I want to delve deeper in my relationship with him, and the perspective of someone else can help me do that at times.
I'm always amazed at how quickly we exwayfers can dismiss provocative words from other Chrisitans of proven Christlike character.
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Tom
Ex10,
Sure someone is; I am. I'm here and allowed to talk too, right? I never said anyone here was talking about letting the horror of the cross obsure the joy, as in, "Hey let's let the horror obscure the joy." Whoever would say such a thing? No one would consciously do such a thing or say that such a thing ought to be done. That's why I referred to it as unconscious blasphemy. Oswald Chambers used the phrase; so can I.
I'm not sure it is that simple. I'm all in favor of brokenness in the sense that the love of God our Father and Jesus our Saviour cannot enter into one that is full of himself, but there are many who are broken by sin, yet that is all that they are - broken. It is the gentleness of God that leads us to true repentance, not our brokenness.
Whether you have perfect understanding of what Kit is saying or not, I don't know. I didn't think perfect understanding was in any sort of supply these days. That having been said, let me say further that I am not dissing on Kit, or you for that matter; I love Kit. And I think she has an amazing ministry that she fulfills as a true soldier of Christ.
I'm just talking as I'm supposed to do in a community forum.
THAT having been said, I do not think, "To really appreciate the sacrificial love of Jesus Christ, we must understand how sinful and lost we really are/were." I think that to really appreciate how sinful and lost we really are/were, we must appreciate, no - understand, no - accept and so begin to understand the sacrificial love of Jesus Christ. It is the gentleness and longsuffering of God that leads us to true repentance, not the realization of how screwed up we are. That's backwards, legalistic, rehab group mentality. Nothing wrong with the law, nothing wrong with rehab groups; they just don't lead anyone to the repentance that the gentleness of God does. It is still pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps thinking.
As I said, it is just His gentleness that leads. Already been driven; I have an immediate and strong aversion to anyone and anything that would drive me anywhere anymore. As much as I can anywhere that I am, I do my best to shake that off.
I think that all we can know about our sin is that is that it is pretty ugly, that it really sucks as a matter of fact, and that we want out, but as far as even being "afraid to look at it," and then "turn our eyes upon Jesus..," we can't even really SEE our sin until the standard of righteous living enlightens our eyes. Jesus said, "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin," and "If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin," and he hadn't even died on the cross yet.
Me too,
Tom
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ex10
Geeze, Tom
I wasn't challenging you. What's up with the attitude?
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Tom
BTW, I have nothing against preaching the cross of Christ. Preach it. I simply disagree with some where they say they do what Paul did and only preach the cross of Christ.
Paul preached a lot more than the cross of Christ. He ONLY preached the cross of Christ ONLY to the divisive who couldn't see what Christ's cross accomplished. To those who realized the untiy that Christ's sacrifice brought about, Paul taught truths concerning the one body also.
As he should have, else Christ died in vain,
Tom
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excathedra
well i have a problem with preaching period
phock everyone and everyone who looks like everyone
?
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ex10
sisex
Feeling a little grouchy, eh? I am too.
;)-->
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Tom
It shows, but that doesn't mean I had attitude.
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ex10
Tom
I just thought a couple of your comments sounded a wee bit condescending.
And in response to a comment I made:
Was this not attitude? Did I misunderstand you?
How do you explain II Corinthians 7:8-11? the key verse being verse 10: "Godly sorrow (over sin) brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret..."?
[This message was edited by ex10 on November 22, 2003 at 21:37.]
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