quote: I did hold my finger over the hose and the alarm sounded. It is a shrill alarm that would wake the dead! I'm sure your engineers' calculations are correct, but I can't figure out a way to turn off the alarm, and considering how I can't stand the shrillness (hurts eardrum), I'll have to use another method or continue to purchase Penta Water.
Krys, your description of the alarm reminded me of a book I read back in the seventies called, "The Art of Thinking" by a Frenchman named Dimnet. He was talking about creative solutions to practical problems and brought up the matter of so many people being killed on the Autobon in Germany.
One bright fellow reasoned that the problem was that people felt justified to mow them down because they had laid on the horn and the person didn't get out of the way. (sort of like the tecnique used on this thread to try to destroy it.)
Anyway, he suggested taking the horns off cars and replace them with little musical beepers with a pleasant sound, thereby taking away the excuse to mow people down.
Seems it worked wonderfully and the accident rate in Europe went down sustantially. I was in Copenhagen years ago and marveled at the pleasant sounding horns going off every so often. Sure was a contrast to big city USA. I guess the powers that be at GM, Ford and Chrysler, never read the book, or never went to Europe because all these years later we still have those big, bad horns- and now road rage to boot. And from your report it seems that even oxygen generators have to scare the hell out of people rather than give them a gentle warning that the machine might shut down and the reset button would need to be pushed if something isn't changed soon. And to think that such an alarm is placed on a unit designed to help those without enough oxygen to begin with is unconscionable. Hell, it won't hurt the machine, but it might well kill the person hearing the blare. That's the AMA and insurance companies at work as the ugly American becomes ever more ugly!
Any chance you can post the blood gas numbers you got the other day, before and after exercise? Or email them to me? I'd be interested in the arterial plasma oxygen before and after exercise and approximately how much time had elapsed from the last time you'd had a drink of water, and perhaps the cut off point (plasma oxygen concentration and/or partial pressure) the insurance companies use to determine if they are going to pay for oxygen use or not.
Glad to hear that none of the numbers have gone down since the last time you had them checked eight months ago.
The purpose of the alarm is not to warn of possible damage to the machine, but to signal that the flow of needed oxygen is being obstructed, which could be life-threatening in some cases.
The alarm has to be the way it is in order to wake you up if there is a power failure. You need to get another supply of oxygen in that case.
I have 2 sources of trouble and 2 different alarm patterns with the same alarm. (I hope that make sense). One is power interrupt....and the other just registers "trouble".
It is in the "Owner's Manual" thata comes with the machine that warns about obstruction of the flow causing detrimental back pressure. I don't understand it, but I'm certainly going to follow the operating instrauctions lest I owe an insurance company the book value of this expensive machine!
As far as my biological numbers.....Unless it causes you great distress, they make you sit w/out osygen for 10 - 15 minutes or so....then take the sample. I was sipping water most of the afternoon so I can't give you a time-result. I don't have any ABG numbers either....they never tell you! After the physical, I'll get copies of various tests....but I don't know about that particular one.
It is only today that I realize that I should not have posted what I did the other day.
It is anecdotal evidence, there are no controls....and I can expect to be questioned about every frikkin detail by those who want to either support the idea or kill it.
So - let me just say that I'll have nothing more to say here about my experiences or my numbers. They mean nothing and I won't respond any longer.
Too bad...some have a genuine interest...but some only seek ways to squigggle in and choke off or discredit. I'm not giving anybody that satisfaction.
quote: "For those who believe in God, no explanation is necessary...
For those who do not believe in God, no explanation is possible."
Ya know, this quote does far more to remove faith/religion from the 'actually proven and verifiable' category than many people even realize, yet when talking about how true their belief is, they act as tho' it IS The Indisputable Truth.
The only way it can be indisputable is if it IS proven! And actually, there are/have been many atheists will listen to any explanation that proves a god. Note the word in bold tho': proves. Failing that, then yes, no explanation is possible. And the challenging questions shall continue.
That it isn't proven can be shown by how many people react when their belief is challenged. Lacking the proof to silence the challenge of the 'naysayers' (everybody boo and hiss), they then fall back on emotional outrage, intimidation by hellfire/'greasespot by midnight' threats, bible quotations that are used as tho' they will silence the questions by their very quotation, knee-jerk responses of thinking that God will smite them for their unbelief, and other like responses.
Dave's 'science-esposed-as-though-it-is-a-kind-of-faith' tactic helps illustrate my point. Look at his reaction when challenged about his oxygenated water proposal. It was VERY much likened to a 'defending of the Faith' kind of response: Calling some of us 'Naysayers', not giving any serious thought as to the validity of an opposing view (as tho' it just cannot be), treating us as 'enemies', dealing with Zix like a kind of 'Osama' as a result.
Any REAL scientist act that way, and its a very high likelyhood that not only his theories would be laughed out of the auditorium, but he would as well. (And yes, there are scientists who also have a 'stick up their nethers', and who also wind up having their credibilities shot as a result)
It is in the "Owner's Manual" thata comes with the machine that warns about obstruction of the flow causing detrimental back pressure.
I just want to clarify that my previous comment was not to dismiss the possibility of damage to the machine, but to emphasize the more important consideration, the flow of oxygen to the person who needs it.
Except that when the water is exposed to air again, the partial pressure of oxygen is no longer at 100%, and the oxygen starts coming right back out of solution. And of course, keeping your refrigerator at a 100% oxygen atmosphere internally is just begging for a fire to boot.
Someone remind me why I even bother with this any more? Is there anyone still on the fence on this issue? Kit thinks David is right, Krys thinks the water works, but not necessarily for the reasons he claims, and most everyone else is opposed or apathetic, it seems.
People should leave medicine to the people who are trained for it, not some fly-by-night quack hawking the snake oil of the week.
quote:Someone remind me why I even bother with this any more?
i almost hate to say it, Zix, but some of you guys obviously seem pretty much driven to dismantle the dangerous and deceptive snake oil ring of one little ole david andersen of bfe ohio
quote: ... but some of you guys obviously seem pretty much driven to dismantle the dangerous and deceptive snake oil ring of one little ole david andersen of bfe ohio
Yeah! That's it! Like that's all we live for!! ((insert wicked chortling here))
Someone remind me why I even bother with this any more?
Because you can't stand to see someone throw around scientific sounding terms in support of something that has not been proven to work?
Because you don't like seeing people b.s.ed by someone who tries to sound informed?
There are plenty of things out there that seem to work, but where there are no tests proving a correlation, much less proof of a cause-effect relationship. Heck, there are things that I do when I'm sick that seem to work for me, which I wouldn't dream of promoting as a universal cure.
But when a promoter of one of these products or whatever starts spouting scientific sounding words, and producing "data" to support the claims, then it's fair game, open season.
Those who use these products are not being attacked by those, like Zixar, who produce real facts to counter the quackery. But if you want to claim that something works because the pressure is such-and-such, or the pH is something-or-another,a nd someone shows that what you claim is physically IMPOSSIBLE, then maybe you should be glad for the education.
And then this quote:
quote:Let's not forget that scientists can't prove God exists either, yet He does.
"For those who believe in God, no explanation is necessary...
For those who do not believe in God, no explanation is possible."
Does the author of this quote realize that Zixar is a bible believing Christian? He's not one of those infidel atheists.
Putting aside the oxygen content for a moment, let's not forget that Penta Water is simply good and pure W-A-T-E-R.
That means all the beneficial effects of pure clean water on the system, whatever they might be, would be realized while drinking Penta just like other pure waters.
They say they've done tests and it's supposedly easier to be assimilated and hydrates better than other water. Whatever. I do know that it gives lots of folks a feeling of well being, so I say go for it. LOTS of folks buy and enjoy this stuff.
Yeah it's expensive, I guess around 50% more than its competitors. I wish it were less expensive.
quote: Except that when the water is exposed to air again, the partial pressure of oxygen is no longer at 100%, and the oxygen starts coming right back out of solution.
Does this mean that you looked up Henry's Law and are willing to retract your previous statements about what jerks folks are that claim water can hold 60-70 ppm oxygen? Everyone knows that you are not responsible for what others read or don't read, but are you responsible to correct your own errors of fact on this thread? That's the question I'd like answered.
Don't worry, most medical doctors don't know Henry's Law either- which is why an engineer is required to talk about the matter of oxygen in water(or at least someone who does know Henry's Law). If you don't believe that, just find as many medical doctors as you can and ask them what Henry's Law states. I think you'll be amazed at how many will say they never heard of it before.
And we haven't even got to the matter of how long it takes for water saturated under an oxygen atmosphere to lose 80% of it's oxygen when exposed to an air atmosphere. I've only done one test on that matter and that was to confirm what the guy said that told me it took days rather than minutes or hours- at least it did in a horse's water bucket that he tested. Sure enough, we made some one evening, let the top off, and by the next morning the water still had 40 ppm in it. I was surprised because intuitively I figured it would be closer to minutes or hours rather than days.
So now that you seem to be corrected in the matter of amounts (even though you haven't retracted your previous posts but merely want to skate on down the road now), perhaps we can get to the matter of the rate at which oxygen is added or subtracted from water under different atmospheric conditions. This is not the domain of medicine by any stretch of the imagination.
But your comments about how futile this thread has become is belied by the numbers. Since yesterday the number of viewers has increased by 169 even though the number of posts has increased by only 16. That's a whole lot more viewers than the few you mentioned. I trust you don't speak for them any more than I do.
Actually, my thought this morning is that this thread is not all that different than the people I encountered when I first started introducing people to PFAL back in the 60's. There were the "leaders", those preachers who had gone to seminary and pretended that they only were qualified to understand the Bible, there were the "followers" that backed them up with nothing other than "me too". These blind leaders of the blind deserved every bit of what they got as church attendence decreased and, by the end of the 70's, most of what was contained in PFAL became common knowledge.
Then there were the intellectuals, especially at college, who thought the bible was bunk. To them I'd bring up speaking in tongues and finally when they asked what it was I'd speak in tongues for them to show them what it was.
The predictable replies, which ran the gambit from "You're crazy" to "Anybody can do that" invariably brought a smile to my face and the reply, "O.K. you do it if it's just bunk." They never did and finally after a few hundred I was satisfied that the unbeliever couldn't do it. (that's the engineers answer to double blind, placebo controlled, "properly designed", crossover tests with probability type reports- it's called facts!).
So there were young, old, rich, poor, low IQ, high IQ, hippies, thugs, high brows. In short, a pretty good cross-section of people. And of those that did actually sit through 36 hours of lecture, (John Lynn did it in three days in my apartment, while counting how many times VPW used such phrases as "The Word of God is the Will of God"), 90% of them I never saw again- but they had the information and could use it, misuse it, dismiss it, persue it, abuse it, whatever they wanted to do. And for the most part I paid my own way while doing this "work".
The problem came in when a 10% response of "devotees" wasn't good enough for VPW and he concluded that "The love of God doesn't work and we're going to 'put some teeth in this ministry'". He did by means of his Way Corp, realizing that although 90% of the folks taking the class would never send him a check, he might get into their pocket to "sponsor" someone they knew in this high and holy calling called the Way Corp. It was built on lies from the beginning and I rather expect that most of the naysayers on this thread were "leaders" in the Way Corp. I can't prove that either and have no desire to even try. I'm just judging from the lack of substance in so many of them, not to mention the lethal intent of your posts. I can deal with your lethal intent but but not the vacuous replies of folks like Garth P and Evan whoever. I'm quite surprised by how many folks keep reading this thread. But hey, if you want to leave there's nobody stopping you!
quote:...he might get into their pocket to "sponsor" someone they knew in this high and holy calling called the Way Corp.
I vaguely recall VPW saying in the early '70's, that the best way Corps money should come is from the participant, or their family.
I never thought of Way Corps sponsorship as a sham, but when you really think about it, how did Way Corps sponsors benefit? Not much. Were they taken for a ride too? Would have been much better had Corps folks saved up their own loot to join the Corps. But that's another stow-ry.
quote: I vaguely recall VPW saying in the early '70's, that the best way Corps money should come is from the participant, or their family.
Oldiesman, VPW well knew that most of the folks that went into the Way Corp had no money and also that most of them had families that hated them because they took PFAL and therefore were "cult" members (just a different "cult" than the rest of the family was involved in- Lutherans, Catholics, etc., those "acceptable cults")
I'm not saying that the people that sponsored them came up empty as a result of their charity, for I trust they did receive back from God in good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, in one way or another. They might have been discouraged by what they later saw as a result of their kindness, but I have to trust that they got over it, as did the ones they sponsored.
Hell, some of them even wrote me letters asking me to sponsor them! So I usually replied that I'd consider sponsoring them AFTER they left the Corp. I even did so on occassion but usually regretted it afterwards. For the most part they had big mouths but no ears. But that was long ago and one sees things differently at 61 than at 25- sort of a throwing out the bathwater while trying not to damage the baby. Thank God for drains in the bath tub these days!
quote: Except that when the water is exposed to air again, the partial pressure of oxygen is no longer at 100%, and the oxygen starts coming right back out of solution.
Does this mean that you looked up Henry's Law and are willing to retract your previous statements about what jerks folks are that claim water can hold 60-70 ppm oxygen? Everyone knows that you are not responsible for what others read or don't read, but are you responsible to correct your own errors of fact on this thread? That's the question I'd like answered.
I would--if I had ever made such statements. What I said was that it was impossible, given the method you were espousing, to saturate water with oxygen anywhere near Penta levels. Bubbling the gas off of a household O2 generator through water, even chilled, distilled water, can neither dissolve nor maintain Penta's claimed levels of oxygen, precisely due to your precious Henry's Law. The generator cannot maintain pressure levels high enough without damage, apparently. Penta can do it through pressurizing their bottles at the factory, and no one here ever claimed any different, but once the bottle is opened and the water exposed to air, it will start losing that dissolved oxygen until its partial pressure is in equilibrium with the surrounding atmosphere--again in perfect accordance with your vaunted Henry's Law.
As I continually state, I'm not responsible if you didn't bother to read the whole thing, and I'm certainly not responsible if you refuse to comprehend what's written past your own subjective biases.
quote:[...] the lethal intent of your posts. I can deal with your lethal intent but but not the vacuous replies of folks like Garth P and Evan whoever. I'm quite surprised by how many folks keep reading this thread. But hey, if you want to leave there's nobody stopping you!
"Lethal intent"? That's funny. I am curious about one thing, though. Did you get a good deal on your bunker? Paranoia like that is usually only found in the militia/survivalist nutcases...
Perhaps you can tell this alleged vacuous individual one thing, ... if you would stoop to my lowly level, O Lord. (Note heavy yet well deserved sarcasm here)
Do you seriously believe that doctors and the A.M.A. are indeed untrustworthy and/or incompetent as a whole? That, by and large, all they ever care about is money, and screwing over the patient, with nary a benefit except in once a great while? To where you can speak of things medical, and because of this perceived untrustworthiness/incompetence on the part of the medical community as a whole, you're word should receive the higher regard/respect by default? ... And without any questions/challenges whatsoever?
Do you seriously believe all that? Because that is indeed the impression I get out of you over these posts that you have given here.
If so, then yeah, I can definitely see where Zixar has just cause in putting to question the safety to human life of your proposals/endorsements. Because just about everybody who has portrayed the entire (or even most) of the medical community as such buffoons, and they themselves have THE viable alternative to doctors, hospitals, et al usually are the ones who have even more people *die* on them as a result. Either because the needed procedure of testing and retesting of unknown medicines have been short cut, or they act real shady, evasive, and even 'offended' when their snakeoil--errr 'alternative' solution is challenged.
Now oxygenated water most likely isn't the *danger* that some people make it out to be. But the way you have been acting? Especially here in a message board posted to by people who have been FAR more screwed over than could happen in your wildest dreams? ..... And you wonder why you're being 'picked on'?? (poor Dr. David, being persecuted along with all the other faithful Christians. Would somebody please play us a dirge on his violin? :(--> (snif))
Thanks but no thanks, but when it comes to the practice of medicine, I'd rather trust a doctor far more than I would ever trust you.
Based upon some information that David provided in one of his posts, I was, in fact, able to find a single study that supported David's position: something called Peroralen O2 Therapie. A person by the name of Prof. MD. A. Pakdaman developed this technique. If you take a look at this web page, http://www.pakdaman.de/, you will be able to look at the results of his study. By the way, the English language pages on this site ARE NOT the same as the German pages...the German pages, based on a cursory view with my very rusty German, look like they might be somewhat credible.
Now, having said all of this, I AM NOT defending any of these snake-oil salesmen, including the one posting here. I AM NOT qualified to evaluate the validity of this information. I am posting it so that somebody who a) speaks better German than I and b) has the requisite knowledge of medicine/biochemistry/molecular biology can look at it and tell me if it is bunk. Having said this, I will bring up the following:
- the site from where I found this guy's name cited him as Prof. MD. A. Pakdaman of Heinrich Univeristy of Duseldorf (there is no such thing as Heinrich University in Duesseldorf -- note the spelling difference. There IS a Heinrich-Heine-Universiaet in Duesseldorf, http://www.uni-duesseldorf.de, but this guy is not listed on its faculty)
An individual by the name of A. Pakdaman has been published in some medical journals. I have provided one of the citations below (from the MEDLINE database). But, thhe study at the Pakdaman web site has not been published in any scholarly journal, so far as I can tell.
He claims to have been presented a Manfred Koehnlechner Prize from the German Research Foundation in Munich. He is not mentioned on the website (http://www.dfg.de) nor is a Manfred Koehnlechner Prize mentioned.
So, you all can take this information for what its worth.
Citation from a published work by A. Pakdaman:
quote:Affiliation: Klinik für komplimentäre Onkologie und Immuntherapie im Gesundheitspark Beelitz, Beelitz-Heilstätten, Germany
Title: Symptomatic treatment of brain tumor patients with sodium selenite, oxygen, and other supportive measures.
Source: Biol Trace Elem Res (Biological trace element research.) 1998 Apr-May; 62(1-2): 1-6
Additional Info: UNITED STATES
Standard No: ISSN: 0163-4984; NLM Unique Journal Identifier: 7911509
Language: English
Abstract: Patients (16 women and 16 men) with brain tumors previously treated conservatively by surgery, radiation, and/or chemotherapy with typical symptoms of increased intracranial pressure were consecutively enrolled to test the effects of pharmacological dosages of sodium selenite (selenase) in conjunction with other supportive therapies (biological response modifiers, detoxification, chemotherapy, immunotherapy, oxygen therapy). The rationale for the use of sodium selenite was that the whole-blood selenium levels were subnormal in 70% of the patients on admission. Patients also frequently presented abnormal levels of other minerals, especially lowered sodium and elevated potassium levels, which appears to be characteristic of brain tumor patients. Sodium selenite was administered by infusion at dosages of 1000 microg Se in physiological saline/d for 4-8 wk. In 76% of the patients, a definite, and in 24% a slight improvement of the general condition and a decrease in symptoms, such as nausea, emesis, headache, vertigo, unsteady gait, speech disorders, and Jacksonian seizures, were observed. In all treated patients, improvements of erythrocyte, hemoglobin, and thrombocyte counts were observed. Additional beneficial effects were noted in the patients receiving the oxygen therapy. It is concluded that the sodium selenite can be employed with oxygen therapy and other supportive measures in the management of brain tumor patients.
Oh, by the way, there are some more data published at: http://www.gaiaresearch.co.za/superwater.html. Additional studies are cited here -- however, I have not looked to see if any of these studies exist or what any of them might say. But it is another data point.
quote: I would--if I had ever made such statements. What I said was that it was impossible, given the method you were espousing, to saturate water with oxygen anywhere near Penta levels. Bubbling the gas off of a household O2 generator through water, even chilled, distilled water, can neither dissolve nor maintain Penta's claimed levels of oxygen, precisely due to your precious Henry's Law.
Well Zixar, looks like you're no chemist at all. I was rather hoping that you were. For you to say, "your precious Henry's Law", as if this was some small, insignificant law of my private domain, tells more about your character and lack of knowledge than you know.
Henry's law has been around for two hundred years, having first been reported by William Henry (1774-1836), an English chemist. Every chemistry student and engineering student learns it their first year in college. So it appears to me that your terminology is a common ploy to take attention off your ignorance and embarrassment for being so obviously uninformed. And then you continue to assert that one cannot bubble oxygen through water in a bottle and get it to saturation under an oxygen environment, for you certainly can, with no more pressure than it takes for a bubble to form at the bottom of the bottle. Naw, you're no chemist. But your buddy Garth immediately showed up to chime in with his "Dr. Dave" line, to shore up the "your precious Henry's Law" defamation. So maybe you and he should go play in the sandbox somewhere and let the adults alone. Looks like Garth has only one arrow in his quiver, belittling names, but he forgot to bring his bow to the hunt! Come back when you both grow up.
Sorry to the rest of you for the distraction. Hopefuylly what follows will have a little more substance to chew on.
From Gray's Anatomy: "The lymphatic vessels of the small intestine receive the special designation of lacteals or chyliferous vessels; they differ in no respect from the lymphatic vessels generally excepting that during the process of digestion they contain a milk-white fluid, the chyle." So when food is not being digested the lacteals contain the water that you drink between meals.
Also from Gray's Anatomy: "Two views are presently held as to the mode in which lymph is formed: one being by the physical processes of filtration, diffusion, and osmosis, and the other, that in addition to these physical processes, the endotheleal cells have an active secretory function." Granted that this was written at least before 1916 (the edition from which the quotes come), but I rather doubt that the view of an active secretory role of the lymph system has been debunked by the AMA, at least not in the secretion of gasses, particularly oxygen, from the lymph- if it is in the water to begin with!
So, from the above two quotes it appears that the part of the lymph system called the lacteals, is on a par with the part not originating in the small intestine. How they are interconnected and/or related is still way beyond me. I did find on a University of Michigan Medical School site a table from "Medcharts Anatomy", by Thomas R. Gest and Jaye Schlesiunger, (1995) cataloging the lymphatics of the abdoman. They show 45 types or classes of lymph nodes in the abdomen alone. And in the class, mesenteric nodes, there is a note saying there are about 200 of these nodes alone.
Previously I'd read that there are an estimated 200 lymph nodes in the entire body and now I find that there are some 200 of them in just one of 45 classes of nodes in the abdomen alone! Further, "in the viscera, lymphatics generally follow arteries and form plexuses (networks) around them." And so the statement earlier in this thread implying that the lacteals merely conveyed water to the thoractic duct so it can get into the blood stream, omits the fact that before doing so this water goes through hundreds if not thousands of lymph nodes that have lots of different things done in them, and in the process wraps around the arterial side of the blood stream to transfer oxygen from the lymph directly to the plasma. At least that's my take on the above quotes.
But lets cut to the chase for a moment. I started this thread as a "here's looking at you" kind of toast to your health. In a former time I might have had coke or pepsi in my glass. We've all drank plenty of that for years and years. And it's basically just carbon dioxide saturated water with some sugar and other stuff thrown in to give it a taste.
And carbon dioxide is 22 times as soluble in water as oxygen is. So we have deliberately added lots of stuff to the body that the body absolutely wants to get rid of. So I suggest that we drink water with oxygen added, something the body must have or die, and the resulting uproar by some is quite astounding. All I can figure is that it is a pecking order kind of thing, some wanting to object simply to assert their presumed right to be superior- or simply to take up space- hero's in their own mind.
I brought up Penta Water because it's on the market and I know that it contains at least 40 ppm oxygen. They don't claim that on the bottle, in fact I've seen no bottled water that even puts a number to the oxygen concentration on the label. But my thesis two years ago was that a good number of bottled water companies add oxygen to their water and this is what makes people come back for more- it works! Add a little oxygen and it works a little, add a lot and it works a lot. Therefore the huge amount of bottled water products on the grocery shelves is explained- not as a fad that will go away but as something that will probably in the end drive soft drink companies out of business.
No doubt Penta Water will hate this thread because I'm telling the world how oxygen in water helps the body, or at least how I think it helps the body. Bye, bye trade secrets. And I've told you all how to make it yourself. If they want to challenge what I say they can always take the oxygen out of their product and see if their sales increase or decrease. Or maybe have a Penta Lite product.
Penta Water pitches an entirely different premise than added oxygen, the small water clusters, that may or may not do a thing, or may or may not be any different sized water clusters than that soon formed in the lacteals once the water gets there.
Penta Water does state on it's label that USP medical grade oxygen is used in their process and so avoids the matter of welding grade and medical grade oxygen coming from the same producers. Hmmm, I wonder what doctor gave them a prescription to get the medical grade oxygen? I always thought that a doctor's perscription was for a specific individual and not blanket coverage for the whole country. Or maybe they purchased a license from FEDGOV and thereby have permission to use medical grade without a doctors perscription. Whatever, I have no quarrel with Penta Water. It's the easiest way to try some seriously oxygenated water to see if it does anything for you or not. Or don't do so, don't make your own, go get some coke or pepsi. It's all the same to me. I didn't come here to force anybody to do anything, just like I never forced anybody to take PFAL. Nor did I force anybody to leave twi when I did, although i sure wish many of my friend would have instead of figuring I was right next to the devil for being "tripped out".
Penta Water wants to make money and I have no problem with that. I don't even have a problem with their getting a patent on the way they make the water. It's a slick way to intimidate some into thinking they might be violating their patent by making their own oxygenated water. But the patent doesn't cover the addition of oxygen to water generally because that is not patentable. Lots of people have been doing that for years. It merely covers adding oxygen to water that is made according to their process. And fat chance anybody will accidently stumble onto the way they process the water.
Anyway, here's looking at ya. Oh, and Chuck, I'm still waiting for you to offer to buy me a steak here at Paw's Steak House. Any chance we can get a table away from the busseling crowd?
Thank you for totally ignoring/dodging my question. And yes Virginia, it was indeed an honest and valid question. But I guess that since you consider me to be 'vacuous', you seem to use that as an all-too-convenient (IMHO that is) excuse to avoid whatever challenging questions I throw your way.
Tell me something chief, is that your example of godly integrity? -->
Ya know, for someone who rips VPW a new one for having acted in such an arrogant and spiteful manner (as you depicted in your posts a few years back in Waydale re: your involvement with TWI and why you left), you seem to take so much after him in your posts here, particularly in your manner of dealing with 'unbelievers' (read, anyone who outright challenges what is taught, rather than being meek and only asking those questions that pose no threat at upsetting your apple cart; again, NOT an attitude to take here at the Greasespot Cafe)
Oh and I don't think that Zixar was dismissing Henry's Law, ... just your usage of it.
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Krys, your description of the alarm reminded me of a book I read back in the seventies called, "The Art of Thinking" by a Frenchman named Dimnet. He was talking about creative solutions to practical problems and brought up the matter of so many people being killed on the Autobon in Germany.
One bright fellow reasoned that the problem was that people felt justified to mow them down because they had laid on the horn and the person didn't get out of the way. (sort of like the tecnique used on this thread to try to destroy it.)
Anyway, he suggested taking the horns off cars and replace them with little musical beepers with a pleasant sound, thereby taking away the excuse to mow people down.
Seems it worked wonderfully and the accident rate in Europe went down sustantially. I was in Copenhagen years ago and marveled at the pleasant sounding horns going off every so often. Sure was a contrast to big city USA. I guess the powers that be at GM, Ford and Chrysler, never read the book, or never went to Europe because all these years later we still have those big, bad horns- and now road rage to boot. And from your report it seems that even oxygen generators have to scare the hell out of people rather than give them a gentle warning that the machine might shut down and the reset button would need to be pushed if something isn't changed soon. And to think that such an alarm is placed on a unit designed to help those without enough oxygen to begin with is unconscionable. Hell, it won't hurt the machine, but it might well kill the person hearing the blare. That's the AMA and insurance companies at work as the ugly American becomes ever more ugly!
Any chance you can post the blood gas numbers you got the other day, before and after exercise? Or email them to me? I'd be interested in the arterial plasma oxygen before and after exercise and approximately how much time had elapsed from the last time you'd had a drink of water, and perhaps the cut off point (plasma oxygen concentration and/or partial pressure) the insurance companies use to determine if they are going to pay for oxygen use or not.
Glad to hear that none of the numbers have gone down since the last time you had them checked eight months ago.
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LG
The purpose of the alarm is not to warn of possible damage to the machine, but to signal that the flow of needed oxygen is being obstructed, which could be life-threatening in some cases.
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krys
The alarm has to be the way it is in order to wake you up if there is a power failure. You need to get another supply of oxygen in that case.
I have 2 sources of trouble and 2 different alarm patterns with the same alarm. (I hope that make sense). One is power interrupt....and the other just registers "trouble".
It is in the "Owner's Manual" thata comes with the machine that warns about obstruction of the flow causing detrimental back pressure. I don't understand it, but I'm certainly going to follow the operating instrauctions lest I owe an insurance company the book value of this expensive machine!
As far as my biological numbers.....Unless it causes you great distress, they make you sit w/out osygen for 10 - 15 minutes or so....then take the sample. I was sipping water most of the afternoon so I can't give you a time-result. I don't have any ABG numbers either....they never tell you! After the physical, I'll get copies of various tests....but I don't know about that particular one.
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krys
It is only today that I realize that I should not have posted what I did the other day.
It is anecdotal evidence, there are no controls....and I can expect to be questioned about every frikkin detail by those who want to either support the idea or kill it.
So - let me just say that I'll have nothing more to say here about my experiences or my numbers. They mean nothing and I won't respond any longer.
Too bad...some have a genuine interest...but some only seek ways to squigggle in and choke off or discredit. I'm not giving anybody that satisfaction.
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oldiesman
Krys please don't be intimidated. I like to hear your stories.
Let's not forget that scientists can't prove God exists either, yet He does.
"For those who believe in God, no explanation is necessary...
For those who do not believe in God, no explanation is possible."
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GarthP2000
Ya know, this quote does far more to remove faith/religion from the 'actually proven and verifiable' category than many people even realize, yet when talking about how true their belief is, they act as tho' it IS The Indisputable Truth.
The only way it can be indisputable is if it IS proven! And actually, there are/have been many atheists will listen to any explanation that proves a god. Note the word in bold tho': proves. Failing that, then yes, no explanation is possible. And the challenging questions shall continue.
That it isn't proven can be shown by how many people react when their belief is challenged. Lacking the proof to silence the challenge of the 'naysayers' (everybody boo and hiss), they then fall back on emotional outrage, intimidation by hellfire/'greasespot by midnight' threats, bible quotations that are used as tho' they will silence the questions by their very quotation, knee-jerk responses of thinking that God will smite them for their unbelief, and other like responses.
Dave's 'science-esposed-as-though-it-is-a-kind-of-faith' tactic helps illustrate my point. Look at his reaction when challenged about his oxygenated water proposal. It was VERY much likened to a 'defending of the Faith' kind of response: Calling some of us 'Naysayers', not giving any serious thought as to the validity of an opposing view (as tho' it just cannot be), treating us as 'enemies', dealing with Zix like a kind of 'Osama' as a result.
Any REAL scientist act that way, and its a very high likelyhood that not only his theories would be laughed out of the auditorium, but he would as well. (And yes, there are scientists who also have a 'stick up their nethers', and who also wind up having their credibilities shot as a result)
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LG
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Zixar
Except that when the water is exposed to air again, the partial pressure of oxygen is no longer at 100%, and the oxygen starts coming right back out of solution. And of course, keeping your refrigerator at a 100% oxygen atmosphere internally is just begging for a fire to boot.
Someone remind me why I even bother with this any more? Is there anyone still on the fence on this issue? Kit thinks David is right, Krys thinks the water works, but not necessarily for the reasons he claims, and most everyone else is opposed or apathetic, it seems.
People should leave medicine to the people who are trained for it, not some fly-by-night quack hawking the snake oil of the week.
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krys
No problem Long Gone...I understood you.
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sirguessalot
i almost hate to say it, Zix, but some of you guys obviously seem pretty much driven to dismantle the dangerous and deceptive snake oil ring of one little ole david andersen of bfe ohio
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GarthP2000
Yeah! That's it! Like that's all we live for!! ((insert wicked chortling here))
...
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Oakspear
Because you don't like seeing people b.s.ed by someone who tries to sound informed?
There are plenty of things out there that seem to work, but where there are no tests proving a correlation, much less proof of a cause-effect relationship. Heck, there are things that I do when I'm sick that seem to work for me, which I wouldn't dream of promoting as a universal cure.
But when a promoter of one of these products or whatever starts spouting scientific sounding words, and producing "data" to support the claims, then it's fair game, open season.
Those who use these products are not being attacked by those, like Zixar, who produce real facts to counter the quackery. But if you want to claim that something works because the pressure is such-and-such, or the pH is something-or-another,a nd someone shows that what you claim is physically IMPOSSIBLE, then maybe you should be glad for the education.
And then this quote:
Does the author of this quote realize that Zixar is a bible believing Christian? He's not one of those infidel atheists.Link to comment
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oldiesman
Putting aside the oxygen content for a moment, let's not forget that Penta Water is simply good and pure W-A-T-E-R.
That means all the beneficial effects of pure clean water on the system, whatever they might be, would be realized while drinking Penta just like other pure waters.
They say they've done tests and it's supposedly easier to be assimilated and hydrates better than other water. Whatever. I do know that it gives lots of folks a feeling of well being, so I say go for it. LOTS of folks buy and enjoy this stuff.
Yeah it's expensive, I guess around 50% more than its competitors. I wish it were less expensive.
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David Anderson
Mr. Zixar (or should I say Miss or Mrs.?)
Does this mean that you looked up Henry's Law and are willing to retract your previous statements about what jerks folks are that claim water can hold 60-70 ppm oxygen? Everyone knows that you are not responsible for what others read or don't read, but are you responsible to correct your own errors of fact on this thread? That's the question I'd like answered.
Don't worry, most medical doctors don't know Henry's Law either- which is why an engineer is required to talk about the matter of oxygen in water(or at least someone who does know Henry's Law). If you don't believe that, just find as many medical doctors as you can and ask them what Henry's Law states. I think you'll be amazed at how many will say they never heard of it before.
And we haven't even got to the matter of how long it takes for water saturated under an oxygen atmosphere to lose 80% of it's oxygen when exposed to an air atmosphere. I've only done one test on that matter and that was to confirm what the guy said that told me it took days rather than minutes or hours- at least it did in a horse's water bucket that he tested. Sure enough, we made some one evening, let the top off, and by the next morning the water still had 40 ppm in it. I was surprised because intuitively I figured it would be closer to minutes or hours rather than days.
So now that you seem to be corrected in the matter of amounts (even though you haven't retracted your previous posts but merely want to skate on down the road now), perhaps we can get to the matter of the rate at which oxygen is added or subtracted from water under different atmospheric conditions. This is not the domain of medicine by any stretch of the imagination.
But your comments about how futile this thread has become is belied by the numbers. Since yesterday the number of viewers has increased by 169 even though the number of posts has increased by only 16. That's a whole lot more viewers than the few you mentioned. I trust you don't speak for them any more than I do.
Actually, my thought this morning is that this thread is not all that different than the people I encountered when I first started introducing people to PFAL back in the 60's. There were the "leaders", those preachers who had gone to seminary and pretended that they only were qualified to understand the Bible, there were the "followers" that backed them up with nothing other than "me too". These blind leaders of the blind deserved every bit of what they got as church attendence decreased and, by the end of the 70's, most of what was contained in PFAL became common knowledge.
Then there were the intellectuals, especially at college, who thought the bible was bunk. To them I'd bring up speaking in tongues and finally when they asked what it was I'd speak in tongues for them to show them what it was.
The predictable replies, which ran the gambit from "You're crazy" to "Anybody can do that" invariably brought a smile to my face and the reply, "O.K. you do it if it's just bunk." They never did and finally after a few hundred I was satisfied that the unbeliever couldn't do it. (that's the engineers answer to double blind, placebo controlled, "properly designed", crossover tests with probability type reports- it's called facts!).
So there were young, old, rich, poor, low IQ, high IQ, hippies, thugs, high brows. In short, a pretty good cross-section of people. And of those that did actually sit through 36 hours of lecture, (John Lynn did it in three days in my apartment, while counting how many times VPW used such phrases as "The Word of God is the Will of God"), 90% of them I never saw again- but they had the information and could use it, misuse it, dismiss it, persue it, abuse it, whatever they wanted to do. And for the most part I paid my own way while doing this "work".
The problem came in when a 10% response of "devotees" wasn't good enough for VPW and he concluded that "The love of God doesn't work and we're going to 'put some teeth in this ministry'". He did by means of his Way Corp, realizing that although 90% of the folks taking the class would never send him a check, he might get into their pocket to "sponsor" someone they knew in this high and holy calling called the Way Corp. It was built on lies from the beginning and I rather expect that most of the naysayers on this thread were "leaders" in the Way Corp. I can't prove that either and have no desire to even try. I'm just judging from the lack of substance in so many of them, not to mention the lethal intent of your posts. I can deal with your lethal intent but but not the vacuous replies of folks like Garth P and Evan whoever. I'm quite surprised by how many folks keep reading this thread. But hey, if you want to leave there's nobody stopping you!
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oldiesman
I never thought of Way Corps sponsorship as a sham, but when you really think about it, how did Way Corps sponsors benefit? Not much. Were they taken for a ride too? Would have been much better had Corps folks saved up their own loot to join the Corps. But that's another stow-ry.
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David Anderson
Oldiesman, VPW well knew that most of the folks that went into the Way Corp had no money and also that most of them had families that hated them because they took PFAL and therefore were "cult" members (just a different "cult" than the rest of the family was involved in- Lutherans, Catholics, etc., those "acceptable cults")
I'm not saying that the people that sponsored them came up empty as a result of their charity, for I trust they did receive back from God in good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, in one way or another. They might have been discouraged by what they later saw as a result of their kindness, but I have to trust that they got over it, as did the ones they sponsored.
Hell, some of them even wrote me letters asking me to sponsor them! So I usually replied that I'd consider sponsoring them AFTER they left the Corp. I even did so on occassion but usually regretted it afterwards. For the most part they had big mouths but no ears. But that was long ago and one sees things differently at 61 than at 25- sort of a throwing out the bathwater while trying not to damage the baby. Thank God for drains in the bath tub these days!
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Zixar
As I continually state, I'm not responsible if you didn't bother to read the whole thing, and I'm certainly not responsible if you refuse to comprehend what's written past your own subjective biases.
"Lethal intent"? That's funny. I am curious about one thing, though. Did you get a good deal on your bunker? Paranoia like that is usually only found in the militia/survivalist nutcases...
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GarthP2000
Dr. David,
Perhaps you can tell this alleged vacuous individual one thing, ... if you would stoop to my lowly level, O Lord. (Note heavy yet well deserved sarcasm here)
Do you seriously believe that doctors and the A.M.A. are indeed untrustworthy and/or incompetent as a whole? That, by and large, all they ever care about is money, and screwing over the patient, with nary a benefit except in once a great while? To where you can speak of things medical, and because of this perceived untrustworthiness/incompetence on the part of the medical community as a whole, you're word should receive the higher regard/respect by default? ... And without any questions/challenges whatsoever?
Do you seriously believe all that? Because that is indeed the impression I get out of you over these posts that you have given here.
If so, then yeah, I can definitely see where Zixar has just cause in putting to question the safety to human life of your proposals/endorsements. Because just about everybody who has portrayed the entire (or even most) of the medical community as such buffoons, and they themselves have THE viable alternative to doctors, hospitals, et al usually are the ones who have even more people *die* on them as a result. Either because the needed procedure of testing and retesting of unknown medicines have been short cut, or they act real shady, evasive, and even 'offended' when their snakeoil--errr 'alternative' solution is challenged.
Now oxygenated water most likely isn't the *danger* that some people make it out to be. But the way you have been acting? Especially here in a message board posted to by people who have been FAR more screwed over than could happen in your wildest dreams? ..... And you wonder why you're being 'picked on'?? (poor Dr. David, being persecuted along with all the other faithful Christians. Would somebody please play us a dirge on his violin?
:(--> (snif))
Thanks but no thanks, but when it comes to the practice of medicine, I'd rather trust a doctor far more than I would ever trust you.
'QUACK' sez the Aflack duck.
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markomalley
Based upon some information that David provided in one of his posts, I was, in fact, able to find a single study that supported David's position: something called Peroralen O2 Therapie. A person by the name of Prof. MD. A. Pakdaman developed this technique. If you take a look at this web page, http://www.pakdaman.de/, you will be able to look at the results of his study. By the way, the English language pages on this site ARE NOT the same as the German pages...the German pages, based on a cursory view with my very rusty German, look like they might be somewhat credible.
Now, having said all of this, I AM NOT defending any of these snake-oil salesmen, including the one posting here. I AM NOT qualified to evaluate the validity of this information. I am posting it so that somebody who a) speaks better German than I and b) has the requisite knowledge of medicine/biochemistry/molecular biology can look at it and tell me if it is bunk. Having said this, I will bring up the following:
- the site from where I found this guy's name cited him as Prof. MD. A. Pakdaman of Heinrich Univeristy of Duseldorf (there is no such thing as Heinrich University in Duesseldorf -- note the spelling difference. There IS a Heinrich-Heine-Universiaet in Duesseldorf, http://www.uni-duesseldorf.de, but this guy is not listed on its faculty)
An individual by the name of A. Pakdaman has been published in some medical journals. I have provided one of the citations below (from the MEDLINE database). But, thhe study at the Pakdaman web site has not been published in any scholarly journal, so far as I can tell.
He claims to have been presented a Manfred Koehnlechner Prize from the German Research Foundation in Munich. He is not mentioned on the website (http://www.dfg.de) nor is a Manfred Koehnlechner Prize mentioned.
So, you all can take this information for what its worth.
Citation from a published work by A. Pakdaman:
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markomalley
Oh, by the way, there are some more data published at: http://www.gaiaresearch.co.za/superwater.html. Additional studies are cited here -- however, I have not looked to see if any of these studies exist or what any of them might say. But it is another data point.
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sirguessalot
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David Anderson
Well Zixar, looks like you're no chemist at all. I was rather hoping that you were. For you to say, "your precious Henry's Law", as if this was some small, insignificant law of my private domain, tells more about your character and lack of knowledge than you know.
Henry's law has been around for two hundred years, having first been reported by William Henry (1774-1836), an English chemist. Every chemistry student and engineering student learns it their first year in college. So it appears to me that your terminology is a common ploy to take attention off your ignorance and embarrassment for being so obviously uninformed. And then you continue to assert that one cannot bubble oxygen through water in a bottle and get it to saturation under an oxygen environment, for you certainly can, with no more pressure than it takes for a bubble to form at the bottom of the bottle. Naw, you're no chemist. But your buddy Garth immediately showed up to chime in with his "Dr. Dave" line, to shore up the "your precious Henry's Law" defamation. So maybe you and he should go play in the sandbox somewhere and let the adults alone. Looks like Garth has only one arrow in his quiver, belittling names, but he forgot to bring his bow to the hunt! Come back when you both grow up.
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David Anderson
Sorry to the rest of you for the distraction. Hopefuylly what follows will have a little more substance to chew on.
From Gray's Anatomy: "The lymphatic vessels of the small intestine receive the special designation of lacteals or chyliferous vessels; they differ in no respect from the lymphatic vessels generally excepting that during the process of digestion they contain a milk-white fluid, the chyle." So when food is not being digested the lacteals contain the water that you drink between meals.
Also from Gray's Anatomy: "Two views are presently held as to the mode in which lymph is formed: one being by the physical processes of filtration, diffusion, and osmosis, and the other, that in addition to these physical processes, the endotheleal cells have an active secretory function." Granted that this was written at least before 1916 (the edition from which the quotes come), but I rather doubt that the view of an active secretory role of the lymph system has been debunked by the AMA, at least not in the secretion of gasses, particularly oxygen, from the lymph- if it is in the water to begin with!
So, from the above two quotes it appears that the part of the lymph system called the lacteals, is on a par with the part not originating in the small intestine. How they are interconnected and/or related is still way beyond me. I did find on a University of Michigan Medical School site a table from "Medcharts Anatomy", by Thomas R. Gest and Jaye Schlesiunger, (1995) cataloging the lymphatics of the abdoman. They show 45 types or classes of lymph nodes in the abdomen alone. And in the class, mesenteric nodes, there is a note saying there are about 200 of these nodes alone.
Previously I'd read that there are an estimated 200 lymph nodes in the entire body and now I find that there are some 200 of them in just one of 45 classes of nodes in the abdomen alone! Further, "in the viscera, lymphatics generally follow arteries and form plexuses (networks) around them." And so the statement earlier in this thread implying that the lacteals merely conveyed water to the thoractic duct so it can get into the blood stream, omits the fact that before doing so this water goes through hundreds if not thousands of lymph nodes that have lots of different things done in them, and in the process wraps around the arterial side of the blood stream to transfer oxygen from the lymph directly to the plasma. At least that's my take on the above quotes.
But lets cut to the chase for a moment. I started this thread as a "here's looking at you" kind of toast to your health. In a former time I might have had coke or pepsi in my glass. We've all drank plenty of that for years and years. And it's basically just carbon dioxide saturated water with some sugar and other stuff thrown in to give it a taste.
And carbon dioxide is 22 times as soluble in water as oxygen is. So we have deliberately added lots of stuff to the body that the body absolutely wants to get rid of. So I suggest that we drink water with oxygen added, something the body must have or die, and the resulting uproar by some is quite astounding. All I can figure is that it is a pecking order kind of thing, some wanting to object simply to assert their presumed right to be superior- or simply to take up space- hero's in their own mind.
I brought up Penta Water because it's on the market and I know that it contains at least 40 ppm oxygen. They don't claim that on the bottle, in fact I've seen no bottled water that even puts a number to the oxygen concentration on the label. But my thesis two years ago was that a good number of bottled water companies add oxygen to their water and this is what makes people come back for more- it works! Add a little oxygen and it works a little, add a lot and it works a lot. Therefore the huge amount of bottled water products on the grocery shelves is explained- not as a fad that will go away but as something that will probably in the end drive soft drink companies out of business.
No doubt Penta Water will hate this thread because I'm telling the world how oxygen in water helps the body, or at least how I think it helps the body. Bye, bye trade secrets. And I've told you all how to make it yourself. If they want to challenge what I say they can always take the oxygen out of their product and see if their sales increase or decrease. Or maybe have a Penta Lite product.
Penta Water pitches an entirely different premise than added oxygen, the small water clusters, that may or may not do a thing, or may or may not be any different sized water clusters than that soon formed in the lacteals once the water gets there.
Penta Water does state on it's label that USP medical grade oxygen is used in their process and so avoids the matter of welding grade and medical grade oxygen coming from the same producers. Hmmm, I wonder what doctor gave them a prescription to get the medical grade oxygen? I always thought that a doctor's perscription was for a specific individual and not blanket coverage for the whole country. Or maybe they purchased a license from FEDGOV and thereby have permission to use medical grade without a doctors perscription. Whatever, I have no quarrel with Penta Water. It's the easiest way to try some seriously oxygenated water to see if it does anything for you or not. Or don't do so, don't make your own, go get some coke or pepsi. It's all the same to me. I didn't come here to force anybody to do anything, just like I never forced anybody to take PFAL. Nor did I force anybody to leave twi when I did, although i sure wish many of my friend would have instead of figuring I was right next to the devil for being "tripped out".
Penta Water wants to make money and I have no problem with that. I don't even have a problem with their getting a patent on the way they make the water. It's a slick way to intimidate some into thinking they might be violating their patent by making their own oxygenated water. But the patent doesn't cover the addition of oxygen to water generally because that is not patentable. Lots of people have been doing that for years. It merely covers adding oxygen to water that is made according to their process. And fat chance anybody will accidently stumble onto the way they process the water.
Anyway, here's looking at ya. Oh, and Chuck, I'm still waiting for you to offer to buy me a steak here at Paw's Steak House. Any chance we can get a table away from the busseling crowd?
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GarthP2000
David,
Thank you for totally ignoring/dodging my question. And yes Virginia, it was indeed an honest and valid question. But I guess that since you consider me to be 'vacuous', you seem to use that as an all-too-convenient (IMHO that is) excuse to avoid whatever challenging questions I throw your way.
Tell me something chief, is that your example of godly integrity?
-->
Ya know, for someone who rips VPW a new one for having acted in such an arrogant and spiteful manner (as you depicted in your posts a few years back in Waydale re: your involvement with TWI and why you left), you seem to take so much after him in your posts here, particularly in your manner of dealing with 'unbelievers' (read, anyone who outright challenges what is taught, rather than being meek and only asking those questions that pose no threat at upsetting your apple cart; again, NOT an attitude to take here at the Greasespot Cafe)
Oh and I don't think that Zixar was dismissing Henry's Law, ... just your usage of it.
BIG difference. Really it is.
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