Thanks for reading the article; I was hoping that you and maybe a few others would read it and judge it on its merits leaving DA out of it.
You may remember that you and I had a discussion of Penta's benefit to me and we differed in ascribing it to the "placebo effect". In my heart I don't believe so, but because of my compromised breathing, I admit I am a special case.
One of the things a number of us disagreed with was the ability of lymph and blood plasma to carry oxygen.
This part of the artile: (emphasis mine)
quote:
This increased pressure, combined with an increase in oxygen to 100 percent, dissolves oxygen in to the blood and in all body tissues and fluids at up to 20 times normal concentration—high enough to sustain life with no blood at all.
...drew my interest since it demonstrated that oxygen can be transported without hemoglobin.
It is not as critical to me now as it was then since my Dr and I have developed a good enough relationship that he is confident that I can regulate my oxygen needs on a daily or hourly basis safely. I can turn it up to suit my activity needs. However, I will go looking around for some special kegs to make my own oxygenated water as I can't continue buying it since the new so-called Medicare Drug Benefit plan begins next year and it will cost me plenty. (comments on that plan probably need to go someplace other than this thread...it's big enough as it is!)
I know I am in the minority deriving benefit from this, but I also know I am not alone as a few other folks have written me privately stating something similar.
Therefore, I wonder if I could cajole all the rest of the posters on this thread to change their manner. Using (*) really should not be associated with Penta Water. It's really not bunk...highly controversial...sure....of questionable benefit...that's honest too...but is is not bunk.
Please can we reserve that symbol (*) to the person who honestly deserves it by way of his arrogant, nasty and childish self where it truly belongs? Please?
Well, krys, I do apologize if you are offended, but if a certain poster that causes people to be reminded of parts of male anatomy persists in his less-than-respectable actions, I will continue to remind him that he is being extremely offensive, but I won't say it as nicely as I just did.
I don't have any problem at all with his wanting to discuss Penta water. I have a huge problem with his calling the rest of us brain-oxygen-deprived and other things.
The (*) is not meant to be associated with Penta water but rather with said proponent of Penta water.
The (*) is not meant to be associated with Penta water but rather with said proponent of Penta water.
I said:
quote:
Please can we reserve that symbol (*) to the person who honestly deserves it by way of his arrogant, nasty and childish self where it truly belongs? Please?
(sigh) That was all I asked for in the first place.
A few points about this thread (not directing them at you Krys--only the hug was aimed your way):
1. David isn't selling oxygenated water or the equipment to make it.
2. David doesn't, to my knowledge, have stock in the company that makes Penta.
3. David started this thread because it seemed to him oxygenated water was doing some people (and some horses!) good.
4. I've been in many meetings/seminars/symposia in which *real* researchers and physicians have disagreed when discussing a new theory for the cause/treatment of some disease or another, etc. Never have I seen one of them stand up and yell, "Bunk!" They simply state their views as to why they believe the theory is not sound, and they agree to disagree. And certainly none of them ever invites another to kiss his (*).
Amazingly, they manage to stick to the science and the research and their opinions on the facts without disparaging each other. A real debate. What a concept!
5. Yes, David did get ....y when 3 or 4 of the perennial piler-onners piled on him. He shouldn't have, but I don't blame him.
5. If you don't want to drink the stuff, don't drink it. If you do, do.
6. If you don't want to read the thread, don't. If you do, read on.
7. The only published "oxygenated water is of no use" study I found in the legit medical literature had too few subjects to prove or disprove much of anything, and it had other design flwas, as Krys pointed out eons ago. In short, it doesn't disprove jack****.
8. In all fairness, I also haven't seen any studies that prove it's highly beneficial, either, but I'm willing to consider both sides of the argument until either side comes up with some kinda proof.
9. Several people have tried the stuff and have felt better for it. I'm not qualified to discuss all the clinical and chemical and physical factors involved. But I know oxygen is good for us, and I don't see that hyperbaric therapy is all that unrelated a topic to bring into the discussion.
I also heard this week about a new gadget that pumps pure oxygen into a longtime chronic wound and voila, the thing heals--we're talking wounds of like 15 years' duration here.
10. WE DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF OXYGEN ON THE HUMAN BODY, whether it comes from our drinking water or sticking our bods in a hyperbaric chamber or sticking a gadget on a wound that pumps O2 into it. If it's something that's not going to hurt anyone, why is it Raf's and Steve's mission to poo-poo the idea? I don't know. Methinks there's more to it than water.
Why can't we continue the disucssion without all the slams at the people discussing and without the CHILDISH insertion of (*) into the mix? (And I don't care "who hit you first." Be men, for God's sake. All of you.)
I don't know which side is right, but I'd really, really, really love to see a grown-up discussion. For cryin' out loud, this isn't Bush vs. Kerry. This isn't atheism vs. Christianity. I see no need for all the "heat."
You either didn't read what LindaZ wrote, or you didn't use your usual good sense when you replied, or you don't get it, or you just don't care.
Penta Water is bunk = Penta Water is snake oil.
I have come to read what Linda writes carefully and thoughtfully because I've come to the realization that she writes exactly what she means and does so without talking down to anybody or undue or harsh critisim.
I have come to read what you write the same way for the same reason....plus, you are a professional. I know you're not a professonal here on these forums, but your posts have just dropped down a couple of pegs because you just have to be right.
It's not about who's right.....it's about creating a peaceful environment where everybody can have a free and equal voice(especially in the Open Forum)
I learned the hard way when I responded to questions about Reiki and the skeptics had to have their say even though the thread was titled: any one into Reiki?
So the other night I was posting and I decided to go into something and just say if they wanted more information they could private topic me. That way I wouldn't be exposed and vulnerable.
I don't push what I do and i don't like spending a lot of time defending it.
The water works for some and doesn't for some.
I have never tried it.
There will always be "snake oil" and there will always be things that are unconventional that work for some people.
Yes, Allen, we left the name-calling and antagonistic ministry and entered the name-calling and antagonistic world.
But back to the thread.
Linda,
With all due respect. You want the same thing as the rest of us.
quote:
8. In all fairness, I also haven't seen any studies that prove it's highly beneficial, either, but I'm willing to consider both sides of the argument until either side comes up with some kinda proof.
For some reason some people think that the burdon of proof is on the people who say oxygenated water is a way to a good burp. It is not. The burdon is on the ones making the fantastic claims. The proof of how we get oxygen is known to anyone with a high school diploma (and remembers what they were taught :)-->). You get it from breathing it. Whether it be from Colodado, China, a hyperbaric Chamber, or an Oxygen Bar, you inhale it and it goes thru what a Bible believer as David believes is God's less efficient design. The reality is that Oxygen freely displaces out of water. See the bubbles? That is what is happening. Gas exchange happens in the lungs. The Lymph system is not as extensive as the blood stream. Its primary function is that of immunity. Its absorbtion of fluid goes to the blood stream not directly to cells. Water is good for you. Drinking more of it is good for you. H2O doesn't form a "water membrain" around anything. It is a very stable molocule.
Point being there is a whole hell of a lot that is known abour oxygen, how our bodies take it in and use it. Anyone claiming a new way of gas exchange needs to go thru the process the rest of the people that brought us our current knowledge had to go thru. As you said "we want proof".
Now that last statement seems to draw fire from David, including name calling. Why he doesn't do the same for you, I can only imagine is because while you also want proof, you defend him, from the "usual pilers". The medical field is not like the judicial system, innocent untill proven guilty or true until proven false. As I said the burdon of prood is on David. He thumbs his nose at that and those that demand it. SO here we are, on an unrelated tangent, that still proves nothing.
If David would give some proof, some here would be happy to say it isn't samke oil. He won't it's not there, I have looked, talked to DRs, my genius wife who's an epi., and a Chemist in passing. After they got done laughing, they explained what I already knew.
If people want to drink the stuff great, it they feel better great. If it realy was a miracle drink that had scientific support, DRs would be on it doing the research and getting a Pulitzer. They would love nothing more.
If this thread would just DIE we would all be much happier and therefore healthier (not a bogus claim).
BTW, it does matter "who started it", at least it does when you are "poo-pooing" the "nay sayers" and defending the one that started cr@*ing on everyone with a different opinion.
"For some reason some people think that the burdon of proof is on the people who say oxygenated water is a way to a good burp. It is not. The burdon is on the ones making the fantastic claims."
My comments really have nothing to do with the burden of proof or the "fantastic claims," and everything to do with respecting each other's right to express an opinion. The naysayers came down on David like he was trying to get heroin legalized for use by children in school cafeterias.
"...you inhale it and it goes thru what a Bible believer as David believes is God's less efficient design."
I don't see anywhere that David said God's design is "less efficient" than what he proposes. Off the top of my head, I'd say that if we ate better, didn't breathe polluted air, never smoked, lived in a perfect world, you would be correct--breathing oxygen would be sufficient. But isn't it even remotely possible that there are other ways to get oxygen into the body, to help compensate for the horrible things our bodies are subjected to in this modern world?
"...Now that last statement seems to draw fire from David, including name calling."
And I didn't defend him for doing that.
"Why he doesn't do the same for you, I can only imagine is because while you also want proof, you defend him, from the 'usual pilers.'"
I don't think so. I think it's because although I didn't jump on his bandwagon, I also didn't jump on his case, as if I were some sort of expert who could disprove what he was saying.
"If it realy was a miracle drink that had scientific support, DRs would be on it doing the research and getting a Pulitzer. They would love nothing more."
I disagree. I've been dealing with medical researchers for about 20 years. Research, as David pointed out long ago, is not cheap. Doctors don't put up their own cash for doing it. Drug companies, medical device companies, gov't agencies--those are the sponsors of the majority of medical research. Do you think they're going to put up tons of money to research something that people can produce in their own kitchens?
"If this thread would just DIE we would all be much happier and therefore healthier (not a bogus claim)."
Why does this thread have to die? In between the insults from both sides, some interesting things have been said. Those who think it's not worthwhile can just skip past it.
It's not about who's right.....it's about creating a peaceful environment where everybody can have a free and equal voice(especially in the Open Forum)
Heh heh, I wouldn't go so far as to expect a peaceful environement. I'd be happy if we could just have one in which someone could express a "different" opinion without being pounced on by the guardians of all that is right. :D-->
And you're right, it was Ginger (I miss Ginger!) who coined the term "choo-choo for thread derailment.
Reikilady:
I remember that thread well. I don't blame you for not wanting to subject yourself to derision. Who likes that?
My comments really have nothing to do with the burden of proof or the "fantastic claims," and everything to do with respecting each other's right to express an opinion. The naysayers came down on David like he was trying to get heroin legalized for use by children in school cafeterias.
And in what part of this long and contentious thread did anybody specifically ask/request David to not express his opinion? *As opposed to asking him to either put up (the proof) or shut up (avoid stating baseless claims)*. And no Virginia, they are NOT the same.
It's like if someone told me to 'stop lying' as opposed to 'stop speaking your point of view'.
See?
And really, if this is what you can show to be 'uncivilized piling on' of poor ol' David, I can show you message baords that can *really* have you wet your pants in this context.
You either didn't read what LindaZ wrote, or you didn't use your usual good sense when you replied, or you don't get it, or you just don't care.
I read what she wrote.
Look, when I say these things, I'm quoting scientists, biologists, nutritionists, the very people she claimed would never do or say such a thing. They've said it. Who did I get "burp" from? Google it: I didn't make it up. Came from nutritionists, doctors. Who did I get bunk from? Same deal.
I just find the indignation on this subject to be somewhat selective. "(*)" is singled out for criticism, but "jerks" is not. Hey, cool enough.
One of the things a number of us disagreed with was the ability of lymph and blood plasma to carry oxygen.
This part of the artile: (emphasis mine)
quote:
This increased pressure, combined with an increase in oxygen to 100 percent, dissolves oxygen in to the blood and in all body tissues and fluids at up to 20 times normal concentration—high enough to sustain life with no blood at all.
...drew my interest since it demonstrated that oxygen can be transported without hemoglobin.
I hear what you are saying. that oxygen can be transported without hemoblobin.
But I will answer that this is only actually proven in a hyperbaric chamber of some sort, where the entire body, or possibly select appendages are placed in a chamber of pure oxygen which is pressureized to two or three atmospheres.
In regards to how it works, Dr Elmer Cranton States:
quote:
. "During HBOT, the pressure is increased up to two times the normal and the patient breathes 100 percent oxygen while the entire body is totally immersed in 100 percent oxygen. Increased pressure combined with the increase in oxygen content dissolves oxygen into the blood and all other body tissues and fluid at up to 20 times the normal concentration..."
A huge difference between HBOT and Penta water is that HBOT uses pressurized pure oxygen. This oxygen is breathed in through the lungs, where it goes directly to the blood and is distributed to other tissues. It could also possibly be absorbed via the skin, but this has not been demonstrated that I am aware of.
Penta water on then other hand is consumed orally and goes directly to the stomach. It only really carries a small percentage of oxygen compared to HBOT, none of which is absorbed through the lungs. D.A has freely admited that it does not increase blood oxygen levels.
As to your point on the lymph carying oxygen ...it very well may, but this has only been demonstrated only under hyperbaric conditions where pure oxygen is actually breathed and not via drinking oxygenated water.
Furthermore, the Penta folks and D.A. have NOT presented a legitimate theory that explains the process of how oxygen can enter the lymphatic system via the drinking of oxygenated water.
Oh, but one thing you've got to keep in mind - when you inhale cigarette smoke, you inhale more deeply than you normally would when breathing, thereby taking in more oxygen. So for this reason alone david anderson should start smoking.
Hey Steve, had you read this thread you would have known that my cigarette consumption was about cut in half after drinking oxygenated water. Took me four months to realize that my cigarette stash hadn't gone down to reorder time near as fast as normal. Why the savings on cigarettes alone made it well worth my time to make the water.
I guess I didn't say that i've been smoking now for some fifty years. And you can't imagine how boring it is to hear the self-righteous, do-gooders tell me I shouldn't smoke because it's bad for my health. Many of them are now dead and I'm still in excellent health- except for cateracts that have been developing for ten years now. I even had one guy tell me the cateracts were caused by the oxygenated water!
Anymore, in the absence of any scientific proof other than pseudoscience and it's statistical hooky-pookisms, that smoking affects longevity (ie. about 5% of the population that dies each year dies from lung cancer, whether smokers or non smokers), I just reply that the Bible says that the Word of God is life to those who find it and health to all their flesh, and then ask them how many people they think die prematurly because they don't read their Bibles. That usually shuts them up (but obviously won't here- the naysayers being so much smarter than everyone else- and all without an ounce of effort to actually study a topic!)
Please can we reserve that symbol (*) to the person who honestly deserves it by way of his arrogant, nasty and childish self where it truly belongs? Please?
Krys, I think you have arrogance confused with anger. So to clarify allow me to put up a verbal mirror so you can take a look at yourself. In your December 8 post you wrote "... that leads me to think you came here to sell your system for oxygenating and distilling water", questioning my motives early on- hardly in the category of "good will to men".
Then you suggested the topic of hyperbarics was off topic and should be handled in a private topic forum- which after six months now reveals that you've seen the relationship to the topic and after 20 years of teaching biology now discover that oxygen can get around the body in ways other than being carried by hemoglobin.
And after trying Penta Water yourself and finding it helpful you accuse me of being arrogant! My peers would say I was stupid for ever trying to discuss the subject on this forum, but would hardly call me arrogant. If you could walk a mile in my shoes you'd know.
Nevertheless, you've done me a favor because an endorsement of the topic from an adversary is far more powerful, at least in a court of law, than an endorsement from a friend. But in a court of law you first have to get sworn in and that means identifying yourself to the court.
Even a meeting, presumably under Robert's Rules of Order if no others, requires a person to identify themself. But here, under the bogus premise that the site is designed to help people leaving twi, equal weight is suposedly given to everybody- the old Rodney King line, "Why can't we all just get along?" The answer to that question is obvious. To put it in words of a person well hated by many on this site, "You can't have peace without the Prince of Peace."
But after six months now, I question how many posters here ever even went through PFAL let alone stayed in the organization long enough to have serious problems when leaving- the presumed design of this forum is to minister to them. Those who might have such problems surely are not going to get them solved by agnostics, athiests, etc., and total ignorance of any kind of Christian code of conduct. You may not like my code of conduct because it does not include pretending everyone is a nice guy. There are murderers, thieves and plunderers out there and I dare say some people have posted here that would love to assisinate the idea that oxygenated water is good for your health, and one doesn't even know if they ever had the sligtest affiliation with twi or the Bible, including you. If my recognition of Jesus Christ as the one I work for is what you mean by arrogant, then pity you. I'm not ashamed of that or of my degrees, or experience, or knowledge. But I'm an old warrior with lots of scars and so have an attitude to go with them. So maybe I'll apologize to a warrior who is quite my senior in battle, but little chance I'll do so to a raw recruit. Or to put it another way, apologize for not providing shoes to someone who doesn't have them when I've had my feet blown off.
By the way, hyperbaric treatment does not supersaturate hemoglobin, which to the best of my knowledge can only carry a maximum of four oxygen molecules.
Smoking being bad for your helath is based on psuedoscience, and oxy water is based on cold hard facts? And I guess we need not discuss this any further seeing as all anyone needs is a healthy dose of Bible reading.
That really says it all.
BTW I have had many people tell me how the telling of my story and my twi experinces and what I have learned since have helped them in many differnt ways, and I'm an agnostic. My experiences are just that, and they don't have to be excepted by anyone to make them real, neither does anyone else's. My name is Matt and f^*k you very much.
If the lack of a real name aggravates you so much I would suggest dealing with people in person and leave the internet behind. Your name is supposedly David Anderson but for all I know it could be Gearhard Funkernickle. For all I know everyone on this thread that agrees with you or defends you in some way could be you as well. You see that is the way of the internet, anonymity. If you don't like the code then this is not the game for you. Go back to the Bible where you just know that everything is true and every name is accurate and at one time actually existed. That should give you a long and healthy life inspite of being a human smoke stack.
But after six months now, I question how many posters here ever even went through PFAL let alone stayed in the organization long enough to have serious problems when leaving- the presumed design of this forum is to minister to them. Those who might have such problems surely are not going to get them solved by agnostics, athiests, etc., and total ignorance of any kind of Christian code of conduct. You may not like my code of conduct because it does not include pretending everyone is a nice guy. There are murderers, thieves and plunderers out there and I dare say some people have posted here that would love to assisinate the idea that oxygenated water is good for your health, and one doesn't even know if they ever had the sligtest affiliation with twi or the Bible, including you. If my recognition of Jesus Christ as the one I work for is what you mean by arrogant, then pity you. I'm not ashamed of that or of my degrees, or experience, or knowledge. But I'm an old warrior with lots of scars and so have an attitude to go with them. So maybe I'll apologize to a warrior who is quite my senior in battle, but little chance I'll do so to a raw recruit. Or to put it another way, apologize for not providing shoes to someone who doesn't have them when I've had my feet blown off.
Does anyone care to try to count and identify the various logical fallacies in the above?
Once upon a time, I posted on a thread that looked interesting. I made a serious mistake in misjudging the motive of a brand new poster. Shortly thereafter, when I realized the mistake I apologized about it, corrected the error, and I thought that was over. (After all this time...that is what's remembered.)
He doubts I ever took piffle, doesn't think I read a bible and a half dozen or so other happy horse-.... kinda things I am also guilty of. He used 32 lines of that stuff. And that was only in response to "arrogant".
Can you imagine what might have been written on "nasty" or "childish"?!
Ordinarily, I would have taken you up on your list of fallacies. I love to learn. I always wanted what I posted here to be easy to read, and easy to understand because sometimes us New Yorkers ane Jersey-ites slur over things and take short cuts that most of the rest of the country can't understand real well.
I don't really care anymore. It's been a long day. It's been a long time coming, but I've reached my limit I think. Nobody wants a nice discussion over here anymore - - they even p*ssed all over OE's Mr. President thread.
I thinki I've had enough. It's not likely that I'll be posting in these parts too much or at all in the near future. 't was good though - while it lasted.
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krys
Goey:
Thanks for reading the article; I was hoping that you and maybe a few others would read it and judge it on its merits leaving DA out of it.
You may remember that you and I had a discussion of Penta's benefit to me and we differed in ascribing it to the "placebo effect". In my heart I don't believe so, but because of my compromised breathing, I admit I am a special case.
One of the things a number of us disagreed with was the ability of lymph and blood plasma to carry oxygen.
This part of the artile: (emphasis mine)
...drew my interest since it demonstrated that oxygen can be transported without hemoglobin.
It is not as critical to me now as it was then since my Dr and I have developed a good enough relationship that he is confident that I can regulate my oxygen needs on a daily or hourly basis safely. I can turn it up to suit my activity needs. However, I will go looking around for some special kegs to make my own oxygenated water as I can't continue buying it since the new so-called Medicare Drug Benefit plan begins next year and it will cost me plenty. (comments on that plan probably need to go someplace other than this thread...it's big enough as it is!)
I know I am in the minority deriving benefit from this, but I also know I am not alone as a few other folks have written me privately stating something similar.
Therefore, I wonder if I could cajole all the rest of the posters on this thread to change their manner. Using (*) really should not be associated with Penta Water. It's really not bunk...highly controversial...sure....of questionable benefit...that's honest too...but is is not bunk.
Please can we reserve that symbol (*) to the person who honestly deserves it by way of his arrogant, nasty and childish self where it truly belongs? Please?
krys
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Steve!
Well, krys, I do apologize if you are offended, but if a certain poster that causes people to be reminded of parts of male anatomy persists in his less-than-respectable actions, I will continue to remind him that he is being extremely offensive, but I won't say it as nicely as I just did.
I don't have any problem at all with his wanting to discuss Penta water. I have a huge problem with his calling the rest of us brain-oxygen-deprived and other things.
The (*) is not meant to be associated with Penta water but rather with said proponent of Penta water.
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krys
Steve! said:
I said:
(sigh) That was all I asked for in the first place.
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Linda Z
{{{Krys}}}
A few points about this thread (not directing them at you Krys--only the hug was aimed your way):
1. David isn't selling oxygenated water or the equipment to make it.
2. David doesn't, to my knowledge, have stock in the company that makes Penta.
3. David started this thread because it seemed to him oxygenated water was doing some people (and some horses!) good.
4. I've been in many meetings/seminars/symposia in which *real* researchers and physicians have disagreed when discussing a new theory for the cause/treatment of some disease or another, etc. Never have I seen one of them stand up and yell, "Bunk!" They simply state their views as to why they believe the theory is not sound, and they agree to disagree. And certainly none of them ever invites another to kiss his (*).
Amazingly, they manage to stick to the science and the research and their opinions on the facts without disparaging each other. A real debate. What a concept!
5. Yes, David did get ....y when 3 or 4 of the perennial piler-onners piled on him. He shouldn't have, but I don't blame him.
5. If you don't want to drink the stuff, don't drink it. If you do, do.
6. If you don't want to read the thread, don't. If you do, read on.
7. The only published "oxygenated water is of no use" study I found in the legit medical literature had too few subjects to prove or disprove much of anything, and it had other design flwas, as Krys pointed out eons ago. In short, it doesn't disprove jack****.
8. In all fairness, I also haven't seen any studies that prove it's highly beneficial, either, but I'm willing to consider both sides of the argument until either side comes up with some kinda proof.
9. Several people have tried the stuff and have felt better for it. I'm not qualified to discuss all the clinical and chemical and physical factors involved. But I know oxygen is good for us, and I don't see that hyperbaric therapy is all that unrelated a topic to bring into the discussion.
I also heard this week about a new gadget that pumps pure oxygen into a longtime chronic wound and voila, the thing heals--we're talking wounds of like 15 years' duration here.
10. WE DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF OXYGEN ON THE HUMAN BODY, whether it comes from our drinking water or sticking our bods in a hyperbaric chamber or sticking a gadget on a wound that pumps O2 into it. If it's something that's not going to hurt anyone, why is it Raf's and Steve's mission to poo-poo the idea? I don't know. Methinks there's more to it than water.
Why can't we continue the disucssion without all the slams at the people discussing and without the CHILDISH insertion of (*) into the mix? (And I don't care "who hit you first." Be men, for God's sake. All of you.)
I don't know which side is right, but I'd really, really, really love to see a grown-up discussion. For cryin' out loud, this isn't Bush vs. Kerry. This isn't atheism vs. Christianity. I see no need for all the "heat."
(edited only to fix typos)
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GarthP2000
Boy, if it *were* atheism vs. Christianity, _then_ there would be reason enough for the torches and pitchforks, I imagine.
-->
Anyhoo, carry on. Sorry for the 'choo-choo' (as Steve! once put the term for a derail).
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Raf
I apologize for calling Penta Water bunk.
It's snake oil.
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krys
I apologize if this comes off wrong, however, for the sake of correctness, it was GingerTea who first used the term "choo-choo".
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krys
Raf:
You either didn't read what LindaZ wrote, or you didn't use your usual good sense when you replied, or you don't get it, or you just don't care.
Penta Water is bunk = Penta Water is snake oil.
I have come to read what Linda writes carefully and thoughtfully because I've come to the realization that she writes exactly what she means and does so without talking down to anybody or undue or harsh critisim.
I have come to read what you write the same way for the same reason....plus, you are a professional. I know you're not a professonal here on these forums, but your posts have just dropped down a couple of pegs because you just have to be right.
It's not about who's right.....it's about creating a peaceful environment where everybody can have a free and equal voice(especially in the Open Forum)
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reikilady
I learned the hard way when I responded to questions about Reiki and the skeptics had to have their say even though the thread was titled: any one into Reiki?
So the other night I was posting and I decided to go into something and just say if they wanted more information they could private topic me. That way I wouldn't be exposed and vulnerable.
I don't push what I do and i don't like spending a lot of time defending it.
The water works for some and doesn't for some.
I have never tried it.
There will always be "snake oil" and there will always be things that are unconventional that work for some people.
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Allan
Thankyou Linda Z and Krysilis for reminding posters to keep things'civil', we all left the name-calling antagonistic ministry behind us.
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lindyhopper
Yes, Allen, we left the name-calling and antagonistic ministry and entered the name-calling and antagonistic world.
But back to the thread.
Linda,
With all due respect. You want the same thing as the rest of us.
For some reason some people think that the burdon of proof is on the people who say oxygenated water is a way to a good burp. It is not. The burdon is on the ones making the fantastic claims. The proof of how we get oxygen is known to anyone with a high school diploma (and remembers what they were taught
:)-->). You get it from breathing it. Whether it be from Colodado, China, a hyperbaric Chamber, or an Oxygen Bar, you inhale it and it goes thru what a Bible believer as David believes is God's less efficient design. The reality is that Oxygen freely displaces out of water. See the bubbles? That is what is happening. Gas exchange happens in the lungs. The Lymph system is not as extensive as the blood stream. Its primary function is that of immunity. Its absorbtion of fluid goes to the blood stream not directly to cells. Water is good for you. Drinking more of it is good for you. H2O doesn't form a "water membrain" around anything. It is a very stable molocule.
Point being there is a whole hell of a lot that is known abour oxygen, how our bodies take it in and use it. Anyone claiming a new way of gas exchange needs to go thru the process the rest of the people that brought us our current knowledge had to go thru. As you said "we want proof".
Now that last statement seems to draw fire from David, including name calling. Why he doesn't do the same for you, I can only imagine is because while you also want proof, you defend him, from the "usual pilers". The medical field is not like the judicial system, innocent untill proven guilty or true until proven false. As I said the burdon of prood is on David. He thumbs his nose at that and those that demand it. SO here we are, on an unrelated tangent, that still proves nothing.
If David would give some proof, some here would be happy to say it isn't samke oil. He won't it's not there, I have looked, talked to DRs, my genius wife who's an epi., and a Chemist in passing. After they got done laughing, they explained what I already knew.
If people want to drink the stuff great, it they feel better great. If it realy was a miracle drink that had scientific support, DRs would be on it doing the research and getting a Pulitzer. They would love nothing more.
If this thread would just DIE we would all be much happier and therefore healthier (not a bogus claim).
BTW, it does matter "who started it", at least it does when you are "poo-pooing" the "nay sayers" and defending the one that started cr@*ing on everyone with a different opinion.
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Linda Z
Lindy said:
"For some reason some people think that the burdon of proof is on the people who say oxygenated water is a way to a good burp. It is not. The burdon is on the ones making the fantastic claims."
My comments really have nothing to do with the burden of proof or the "fantastic claims," and everything to do with respecting each other's right to express an opinion. The naysayers came down on David like he was trying to get heroin legalized for use by children in school cafeterias.
"...you inhale it and it goes thru what a Bible believer as David believes is God's less efficient design."
I don't see anywhere that David said God's design is "less efficient" than what he proposes. Off the top of my head, I'd say that if we ate better, didn't breathe polluted air, never smoked, lived in a perfect world, you would be correct--breathing oxygen would be sufficient. But isn't it even remotely possible that there are other ways to get oxygen into the body, to help compensate for the horrible things our bodies are subjected to in this modern world?
"...Now that last statement seems to draw fire from David, including name calling."
And I didn't defend him for doing that.
"Why he doesn't do the same for you, I can only imagine is because while you also want proof, you defend him, from the 'usual pilers.'"
I don't think so. I think it's because although I didn't jump on his bandwagon, I also didn't jump on his case, as if I were some sort of expert who could disprove what he was saying.
"If it realy was a miracle drink that had scientific support, DRs would be on it doing the research and getting a Pulitzer. They would love nothing more."
I disagree. I've been dealing with medical researchers for about 20 years. Research, as David pointed out long ago, is not cheap. Doctors don't put up their own cash for doing it. Drug companies, medical device companies, gov't agencies--those are the sponsors of the majority of medical research. Do you think they're going to put up tons of money to research something that people can produce in their own kitchens?
"If this thread would just DIE we would all be much happier and therefore healthier (not a bogus claim)."
Why does this thread have to die? In between the insults from both sides, some interesting things have been said. Those who think it's not worthwhile can just skip past it.
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Linda Z
Krys said:
Heh heh, I wouldn't go so far as to expect a peaceful environement. I'd be happy if we could just have one in which someone could express a "different" opinion without being pounced on by the guardians of all that is right.
:D-->
And you're right, it was Ginger (I miss Ginger!) who coined the term "choo-choo for thread derailment.
Reikilady:
I remember that thread well. I don't blame you for not wanting to subject yourself to derision. Who likes that?
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GarthP2000
And in what part of this long and contentious thread did anybody specifically ask/request David to not express his opinion? *As opposed to asking him to either put up (the proof) or shut up (avoid stating baseless claims)*. And no Virginia, they are NOT the same.
It's like if someone told me to 'stop lying' as opposed to 'stop speaking your point of view'.
See?
And really, if this is what you can show to be 'uncivilized piling on' of poor ol' David, I can show you message baords that can *really* have you wet your pants in this context.
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Raf
I read what she wrote.
Look, when I say these things, I'm quoting scientists, biologists, nutritionists, the very people she claimed would never do or say such a thing. They've said it. Who did I get "burp" from? Google it: I didn't make it up. Came from nutritionists, doctors. Who did I get bunk from? Same deal.
I just find the indignation on this subject to be somewhat selective. "(*)" is singled out for criticism, but "jerks" is not. Hey, cool enough.
Thanks for the critique. I'll take it to heart.
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Goey
Hi Krys,
I hear what you are saying. that oxygen can be transported without hemoblobin.
But I will answer that this is only actually proven in a hyperbaric chamber of some sort, where the entire body, or possibly select appendages are placed in a chamber of pure oxygen which is pressureized to two or three atmospheres.
In regards to how it works, Dr Elmer Cranton States:
A huge difference between HBOT and Penta water is that HBOT uses pressurized pure oxygen. This oxygen is breathed in through the lungs, where it goes directly to the blood and is distributed to other tissues. It could also possibly be absorbed via the skin, but this has not been demonstrated that I am aware of.
Penta water on then other hand is consumed orally and goes directly to the stomach. It only really carries a small percentage of oxygen compared to HBOT, none of which is absorbed through the lungs. D.A has freely admited that it does not increase blood oxygen levels.
As to your point on the lymph carying oxygen ...it very well may, but this has only been demonstrated only under hyperbaric conditions where pure oxygen is actually breathed and not via drinking oxygenated water.
Furthermore, the Penta folks and D.A. have NOT presented a legitimate theory that explains the process of how oxygen can enter the lymphatic system via the drinking of oxygenated water.
Goey
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David Anderson
Hey Steve, had you read this thread you would have known that my cigarette consumption was about cut in half after drinking oxygenated water. Took me four months to realize that my cigarette stash hadn't gone down to reorder time near as fast as normal. Why the savings on cigarettes alone made it well worth my time to make the water.
I guess I didn't say that i've been smoking now for some fifty years. And you can't imagine how boring it is to hear the self-righteous, do-gooders tell me I shouldn't smoke because it's bad for my health. Many of them are now dead and I'm still in excellent health- except for cateracts that have been developing for ten years now. I even had one guy tell me the cateracts were caused by the oxygenated water!
Anymore, in the absence of any scientific proof other than pseudoscience and it's statistical hooky-pookisms, that smoking affects longevity (ie. about 5% of the population that dies each year dies from lung cancer, whether smokers or non smokers), I just reply that the Bible says that the Word of God is life to those who find it and health to all their flesh, and then ask them how many people they think die prematurly because they don't read their Bibles. That usually shuts them up (but obviously won't here- the naysayers being so much smarter than everyone else- and all without an ounce of effort to actually study a topic!)
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David Anderson
Krys, I think you have arrogance confused with anger. So to clarify allow me to put up a verbal mirror so you can take a look at yourself. In your December 8 post you wrote "... that leads me to think you came here to sell your system for oxygenating and distilling water", questioning my motives early on- hardly in the category of "good will to men".
Then you suggested the topic of hyperbarics was off topic and should be handled in a private topic forum- which after six months now reveals that you've seen the relationship to the topic and after 20 years of teaching biology now discover that oxygen can get around the body in ways other than being carried by hemoglobin.
And after trying Penta Water yourself and finding it helpful you accuse me of being arrogant! My peers would say I was stupid for ever trying to discuss the subject on this forum, but would hardly call me arrogant. If you could walk a mile in my shoes you'd know.
Nevertheless, you've done me a favor because an endorsement of the topic from an adversary is far more powerful, at least in a court of law, than an endorsement from a friend. But in a court of law you first have to get sworn in and that means identifying yourself to the court.
Even a meeting, presumably under Robert's Rules of Order if no others, requires a person to identify themself. But here, under the bogus premise that the site is designed to help people leaving twi, equal weight is suposedly given to everybody- the old Rodney King line, "Why can't we all just get along?" The answer to that question is obvious. To put it in words of a person well hated by many on this site, "You can't have peace without the Prince of Peace."
But after six months now, I question how many posters here ever even went through PFAL let alone stayed in the organization long enough to have serious problems when leaving- the presumed design of this forum is to minister to them. Those who might have such problems surely are not going to get them solved by agnostics, athiests, etc., and total ignorance of any kind of Christian code of conduct. You may not like my code of conduct because it does not include pretending everyone is a nice guy. There are murderers, thieves and plunderers out there and I dare say some people have posted here that would love to assisinate the idea that oxygenated water is good for your health, and one doesn't even know if they ever had the sligtest affiliation with twi or the Bible, including you. If my recognition of Jesus Christ as the one I work for is what you mean by arrogant, then pity you. I'm not ashamed of that or of my degrees, or experience, or knowledge. But I'm an old warrior with lots of scars and so have an attitude to go with them. So maybe I'll apologize to a warrior who is quite my senior in battle, but little chance I'll do so to a raw recruit. Or to put it another way, apologize for not providing shoes to someone who doesn't have them when I've had my feet blown off.
By the way, hyperbaric treatment does not supersaturate hemoglobin, which to the best of my knowledge can only carry a maximum of four oxygen molecules.
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lindyhopper
OK , Now you've gone off the deep end, David.
Smoking being bad for your helath is based on psuedoscience, and oxy water is based on cold hard facts? And I guess we need not discuss this any further seeing as all anyone needs is a healthy dose of Bible reading.
That really says it all.
BTW I have had many people tell me how the telling of my story and my twi experinces and what I have learned since have helped them in many differnt ways, and I'm an agnostic. My experiences are just that, and they don't have to be excepted by anyone to make them real, neither does anyone else's. My name is Matt and f^*k you very much.
If the lack of a real name aggravates you so much I would suggest dealing with people in person and leave the internet behind. Your name is supposedly David Anderson but for all I know it could be Gearhard Funkernickle. For all I know everyone on this thread that agrees with you or defends you in some way could be you as well. You see that is the way of the internet, anonymity. If you don't like the code then this is not the game for you. Go back to the Bible where you just know that everything is true and every name is accurate and at one time actually existed. That should give you a long and healthy life inspite of being a human smoke stack.
I'm glad we got back on track with all this : )
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Steve!
It has nothing to do whatsoever with pretending ANYONE is a nice guy. If you truly believe this you are more of a moron than even *I* thought.
It has everything to do with disagreeing without being disagreeable.
Why don't you try that sometime? It really works!
Your message gets lost in all of the namecalling and arrogance. Not to mention the fallacious logic that you engage.
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WordWolf
Well, that's the REASON for the namecalling and arrogance, Steve.
If you have the law on your side, hammer the law.
If you have the facts on your side, hammer the facts.
If you have neither on your side, hammer the TABLE.
Without namecalling and arrogance, the substance of his argument would be based
on 'substance' rather than 'argument'.
This business of "warriors who are senior in battle" (of which Klingon House,
I wonder?) isn't that different from only having a message for OLGs,
and this "murderers, thieves and plunderers" isn't far from
"crybabies" and "unfit researchers".
"Plunderers?" What, we have pirates here now?
"Arrr, matey, we'll keelhaul the lubbers who don't endorse this water!"
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Steve!
He talks about being a warrior. Certainly not a warrior of wits - he'd be fighting unarmed!
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Goey
Does anyone care to try to count and identify the various logical fallacies in the above?
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krys
Nope...not me!
Once upon a time, I posted on a thread that looked interesting. I made a serious mistake in misjudging the motive of a brand new poster. Shortly thereafter, when I realized the mistake I apologized about it, corrected the error, and I thought that was over. (After all this time...that is what's remembered.)
He doubts I ever took piffle, doesn't think I read a bible and a half dozen or so other happy horse-.... kinda things I am also guilty of. He used 32 lines of that stuff. And that was only in response to "arrogant".
Can you imagine what might have been written on "nasty" or "childish"?!
Ordinarily, I would have taken you up on your list of fallacies. I love to learn. I always wanted what I posted here to be easy to read, and easy to understand because sometimes us New Yorkers ane Jersey-ites slur over things and take short cuts that most of the rest of the country can't understand real well.
I don't really care anymore. It's been a long day. It's been a long time coming, but I've reached my limit I think. Nobody wants a nice discussion over here anymore - - they even p*ssed all over OE's Mr. President thread.
I thinki I've had enough. It's not likely that I'll be posting in these parts too much or at all in the near future. 't was good though - while it lasted.
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