All the talk about Hawk's pear juice got me waxing nostalgic. :D-->
The day before we were to fly out to Steve and Cindy !'s wedding in April I came down with a sinus infection. There wasn't time to get to one of those high falutin' modern "doctors", so I made do with pain killers and over-the-counter medication.
It was not a pleasant flight. :(-->
During the GS pre-wedding "party in the pastor's room" I partook of a wee bit of Hawk's possibly-legal-in-a-state-or-two Pear Juice. By the time we went back to our room I had no pain, no swelling, no discomfort. I was cured.
Coincidence? Or the amazing anecdotal healing power of another alternative medicine?
You guys better watch out for the Evil FEDGOV™ black helicopters...the AMA and the Illuminati won't just let you market such a miracle cure as "p'ar juice" without getting their cut of the profits!
quote: Lymph originates as blood plasma lost from the capillary beds of the circulatory system, which leaks out into the surrounding tissues.
Seems Zixar is intent on proving the vastness of what he learned about lymph in ninth grade and now has the proof, in the form of a Wickopedia entry, while at the same time showing that I'm so stupid that my stupidity could kill someone. I mean, everyone knows that the above quote is true, don't they? The Wickopedia entry has probably even been "peer reviewed" by the AMA.
But no, I don't believe it. Whether three liters of plasma "leaks" from the capillaries a day or not, the picture painted by the article is one of a perpetual motion machine that goes in circles, does nothing, and returns from whence it came. And so I'm still of the opinion that lymph originates as chyle in the small intestine, reason being that we do need about three pounds of water a day to live and that water goes somewhere, whether oxygenated or not, whether distilled water or the water contained in coke or coffee, before the kidneys get rid of it.
The best information I have after a couple of years of looking into the matter is that 80% of water is absorbed in the small intestine and gets split with about 1/3 of it going into the blood system and 2/3 going into the lymph system as chyle.
Google has about 772,000 sites under the search "small intestine" and I've read hundreds, perhaps thousands, of them over the past two years. I even found Gray's "Anatomy" on the subject, a 1918 edition, which evidently is famous since he died in the 1860's. Amazing what was known in the 1860's about the samll intestine, even the word chyle (although I couldn't find it in the Wickopedia article offered by Zixar)- obviously it's not needed since the whole lymph system can be described, from beginning to end, as a little leakage from the capillaries that just goes back into the blood system anyway. Even the lacteals, those "pipes" that begin the lymph system, and appear to be twice the size of the capillary "pipes" in the villi of the small intestine, are usually described as going in short order to the blood stream, as though their importance to the lymph system was non existant. But that's AMA stuff, who wouldn't think about a mere massage of the lymph system to make you better. Far superior is pills to kill off the digestive system and the rest of you as well. Pills and the knife, "modern medicine" in a nut shell.
So excuse me for not being able to find the discussion again that pointed out that the lymph system began as chyle in the small intestine. I'd read quite a number of articles like the Wickopedia article before ever finding it. Sorry that I'm not a very good organizer or filing secretary. But then my purpose in beginning this thread was to try and organize all the notes I'd taken on the subject over the past two years and bring some order to them- with a little help from my friends, and hopefully as few distractions as possible from the nay-sayers.
But thanks Zixar for the Wickopedia site. It is quite good, with lots of links to amplify things. It just doesn't say a thing about the progression of the water we drink and where it goes and how it get's there, let alone the oxygen in the water we drink- if there's any in it at all by the time it reaches our mouths.
I guess the bottom line here is that the medical profession deals with people that are sick, not people that are well. If I'm right about what i've deduced so far about the role and value of oxygen in water, there may be a
whole lot fewer sick people to take advantage of and make money from in that profession. I have no quarrel with their dealing with sick people, but the devotees of that profession that want to convince well people that they are on dangerous ground if they do anything not sanctioned by the medical profession, or first approved by it, will have a serious problem with this engineer.
But, alas, we engineers deal with people that are well and can fight back and so generally have to be quite a bit better informed than they are. Same goes for lawyers. They also deal with people that are down, either wanting a divorce, or to settle an estate from someone recently deceased, or needing to declare bankrupcy, or to escape the jaws of the law because of a murder they committed, etc. In short, unwell people due to other causes. So they can, and do, plunder them just as badly as the medical profession does. If an engineer plunders you, at least you're not sick or broke and can fight back. My experience as an engineer is that the plundering is usually in the opposite direction- we get plundered instead of doing the plundering.
As for oxygenated water, I hope I make millions of dollars on it, but I wouldn't bet the farm (if I had one to bet). How well Penta Water is doing I don't know, but the longest standing health foods store in the Cleveland area has carried it for at least two years and to my amazement it's only $1.33 for a 500 ml bottle. Same bottle I bought closer to home for considerably more money less than a year ago. Hey, maybe it will go down to ten cents a bottle and they'll go broke. Then all the nay-sayers can heckle them for being so stupid and not bribing the medical profession into "properly" testing their product, etc, instead of characterizing them as greedy bastards with a .... product. But it would be the same kind of people, just a different line of tripe, that did so.
Anyway, those that are interested in persuing the matter of the lymph system beginning in the villi of the small intestine (villi means fingerlike as they are the active sites mostly on the walls of the middle part of the intestine that extend into it) there are about 369,000 sites to read on google's search for "villi". If you start reading them, you'll come to another word, "Crypt", as it seems the villi start with stem cells that make crypt cells, which then migrate up the structure to become villi and finally die, to be recicyled and digested, all within three days! So the small intestine evidently is a whole new critter every three days. Not only that, it seems that there is also plenty of smooth muscle tissue around to help the digestion process and give it a hydrolic "boost". Hmmm, seems that osmosis is not the only force at work, even though it's commonly reported to be so. Sure didn't know about those little muscles until yesterday. But they're not like your biceps in that they are controlled independently of your will and so get whatever exercise they need without your asking them to go out and work.
Anyway, I'm still waiting for Krys's amplification of the lymph system and sure hope she's not going to settle for Zixar's- which in my view is a poor substitute for what she has to offer. Thanks Krys for all you've helped so far.
And thanks SirGuess for your reductionism vs holistic references. Sure wish the nay-sayers and their strawman tactics (ie. build a strawman and then knock the hell out of him and walk away satisfied that you're a hero) hadn't stopped your thread on breathing with their personal attacks.
Oh, and thanks RAF for your anecdotal evidence that oxygenated water isn't harmful. My very first question, two years ago when I first found out that adding oxygen to water could be helpful, was the possibility that adding too much might be detremental. That was answered to my satisfaction in an email from Dr. Philip James, who carries on what Dr. Haldane started at the Wolfson Hyperbaric Medicine Unit in England. Dr. Haldane is known worldwide as the "Father of Oxygen Therapy" and the Haldane Effect (which deals with O2 effects in the body), as well as the Bohr Effect (which deals with CO2 effects in the body), speed or retard hemoglobin loading and unloading, as does the quality and quantity of water in the body, and such things as pH.
So thanks Cowgirl for your post about the matter of pH balance. It is also a worthy topic for discussion but we still, after 280 posts, haven't even gotten to the point of oxygen in water being noncontroversial, and around for over thirty years (ie. Dr. Pakdaman's work, and water, in Germany), let alone being able to settle down and discuss the Haldane Effect, the Bohr Effect, concentration effects, and pH effects on the rate at which hemoglobin and myoglobin are loaded and unloaded. These are all areas that I surely would like to know more about and if you have further thoughts on how pH might be affected by oxygen concentration in the plasma or lymph, please say on. I'm by no means an expert on these subjects.
I should say that the warning "contraversial" regarding oxygen content in water seems always to come from the folks in the medical field or the fans of medicine. It is in their interest that it stay "contraversial" as long as possible so they don't lose too many customers to good health. Already there are alternative medicine wards in many hospitals because this "niche market" was cutting into their business and they wanted another profit center. Who says Penta Water is the only one interested in making money?
If I'm not mistaken, you seem to have more of an overall distrust of the medical profession than with the engineering profession, or even than the legal profession. At least, that's what I deduce from the tone of your posts in dealing with these groups.
(If anything, I would think that there would be more deserved mistrust towards the legal profession.)
Keep in mind that engineers can be just as arrogant and/or misinformed as any doctor or attorney. It does depend on the individual, more than the profession, even such as the A.M.A.
I mean, look at some of your own arrogance you displayed here. ... Yes Virginia, you have.
And so, in the immortal words of Sgt. Hulka, "Lighten up, Frances!"
I could write an entire paper on willful ignorance based on nothing but your posts in this forum alone.
Here's where you are WRONG about the lymphatic system:
1) While chyle is an ingredient of lymph, it is by no means the primary component, nor is it the initial precursor. Interstitial cellular fluid leakage is the main component and about three liters per day are produced.
2) Lymph does not reenter the bloodstream at the lymph nodes. The lymph goes straight into the bloodstream via the thoracic duct emptying into the subclavian veins.
3) The lymph has been filtered clean at that point. It is not "sewer water".
(Source: Microsoft's Encarta Encyclopedia and WebMD)
Maybe you're describing Chewbacca's lymphatic system, but it sure isn't human. -->
If the rest of your knowledge is as faulty as your knowledge of the lymphatic system, why do you persist on your public displays of ignorance? If you want to peddle your seltzer here, couldn't you at least take the effort to make sure anyone with a browser and 15 minutes to waste can't falsify your spiel? You're as bad as TWI was at hyping irrelevant crap under a load of pompous faux-pious and pseudo-scientific blather.
Quit wasting everyone's time with your snake-oil screeds. Why not find someplace else that has more gullible, desperate, exploitable people?
Now, now Zix. We all know that Dr. David's disdain for anything A.M.A. related qualifies him, by default, to know more than any medical doctor. ... Without question. ;)-->
I cannot refute what Wikopedia and Zixar have stated.
I feel an exorbitant amount of pressure. What I know is not quite good enough. Somebody will have time or inclination to Google every thought perhaps looking for discrepancies. I only know what I know...and I make no claims that I am an indisputable expert!
I'd rather speak in terms of function rather than anatomy.
Everything that goes on within our bodies must take place in an aqueous solution. Circulating systems are necessary to provide and maintain these systems within their operational norms (homeostasis).
Cerebro-Spinal circulation is an entity unto itself which I know very little about. It serves the brain and spinal cord.
The rest of the body is served by 2 circulation systems. One is closed...meaning completely contained within vessels. Blood is pumped by the heart out to the body via one main artery, called the aorta and travels through ever decreasing sized vessels. Eventually the vessels end up in capillaries. Capillaries are where all the exchanges take place...things out....things in...and they are one cell's thickness in size.
The capillaries are spread into an area of the body called a capillary bed. (These are all over the place)on the other side of the capillaries, they join together into increasingly large vessels, and eventually into 2 large veins which empty into the heart. One vena cava comes from above the heart, and the other from below.
Interstitial fluid is fluid between cells. Fluid - mainly an aqueous solution containing nutrients, hormones etc seeps out at the beginning of the capillary bed. This fluid bathes each and every cell. Each cell takes what it needs from this fluid, and empties it's products and waste products back into this fluid. Some of this interstitial fluid seeps back into the capillary bed but most does not, rather washes over layers of cells and is collected into vessels which are small blind ended tubes at one end where this fluid enters.
This is part of the lymphatic circulation. This circulation system has 2 major areas of input. One from the interstitial cells and the other at the lacteals in the digestive system. It has no pump in and of itself.
Lacteals exist in the villi to absorb the products of the digestion of fats and some fat-soluble vitamins. Water and fat don't mix well so this is how these materials are collected after digestion.
quote:Oh, and thanks RAF for your anecdotal evidence that oxygenated water isn't harmful.
Sigh. That's not what I said. All I said was "I don't think this stuff is harmful." I did not claim this on the basis of any evidence whatsoever, anecdotal or otherwise. It's the absence of evidence that leads me to this conclusion (ie, no reports of people drinking it and developing liver disease, for example).
RAF, I think I mispoke. What I meant to say was thanks for your being my anecdotal evidence-the kind that some here think is worthless but I don't think is worthless. So maybe by adding your name to that of Mstar1, Oldiesman, myself, Krys, and maybe a few hundred others that I know of (not to mention birds, dogs, cats, horses and the like), who by their actions demonstrate that they don't think drinking oxygenated water is dangerous, maybe the viciousness of one annonomous person, Zixar, will be neutralized. There's probably no hope for folks like George Aar, but I have no quarrel with him because he's only sugested I'm stupid and broke, and I don't mind that. Being called a murderer by stupidity is something entirely different.
I might not be the brightest light in the barn, but I'm not burned out either and so I can tend to horses, and even horses asses, when it's dark outside.
I would rather you not use me as evidence of anything, unless you're gathering a list of people who think Penta Water is bunk.
I am far more in agreement with what Zixar has written than I am with what you have written, and using me for any other purpose would be dishonest.
And PLEASE stop criticizing people for choosing to remain anonymous on a message board. The tactic has already been discredited several times on this thread.
I thought I would pop into this thread for a minute...I was curious as to why this thread had nearly 300 posts...
I must admit that I have not read every post... but what I have read sounds so biologically tehnical and elaborate, that I am scratching my head and saying..."yikes".
Maybe I should just cut to the chase...How much for a gallon Dave?
quote:Maybe I should just cut to the chase...How much for a gallon Dave?
A good question. David, may I have the opportunity to taste test your water? May I have a gallon? I'd like to compare it with Penta while in hydronated bliss. :)-->
quote: 2) Lymph does not reenter the bloodstream at the lymph nodes. The lymph goes straight into the bloodstream via the thoracic duct emptying into the subclavian veins.
So Zixar, are you saying that the thoracic duct is part of the lymph system, and maybe even the subclavian veins are too? Gee, maybe I should have said the lymph system starts with a glass of water sitting on the table, gets picked up by the hand, put to the mouth, swallowed and then ends up in the toilet bowl when we "take a leak". That, at least, would be a complete "system", complete with a beginning and an end, and sure would beat the capillaries taking a leak from the blood stream and going back to the blood stream as complete system.
Oh, and your saying that FEDGOV is a trademarked word is also a lie. The first part, FED, everybody knows refers to Greenie and the boys, and the second part, GOV, even has it's own web domain, the dot gov's. It's headed by Bush and the boys, and although folks like you would like to suggest that it's disjointed and one level not connected to the other (like FDA not connected to IRS), it ain't so. It's a well connected, well oiled, monolith, ugly as that monster may be. It's wanting to grow into a one world monster, but to the best of my knowledge it still has a way to go to get that accomlished. Maybe evolution will get it there but I wouldn't bet on it.
But hey, you seem to have even brought your cheerleaders along to the game in the form of one GarthP, to distract us with black helicoptors and even the name of John Lynn- whatever that has to do with oxygenated water.
So keep telling lies and cluttering up the thread with misinformation if you like, seems I can't stop you from doing so.
But then Raf and Oakspear can't stop me from using their names either as anecdotal evidence that drinking oxygenated water isn't harmful. Not that it means anything, but it is on a par with medical research that says, "here, buy this pill because there's only one chance in ten that it will kill you." I mean, such pills are now pushed in tv ads that will even enhance your sex life, although they caution that your liver (if you have a liver problem) may be damaged and so you should spend more money to go see a doctor to tell you if your liver will object to using the pill.
Hey, now that I think about it, oxygen saturated water might even help your sex life! Why if you give it to a girl she might even like you! But maybe she'll ask for your name first! Oops, here comes your cheerleader to say I'm being sexist by assuming that NoName is a male. So it's ok by me if you want to switch genders in the above sentences.
I don't know, maybe Krys was right in the beginning of this thread when she suggested it be moved to a Private Topic. My intention in starting the discussion was not to put pressure on her and if she thinks it now does do that, why we can always just stop and do exactly that. But before I get involved in a Private Topic, I'm going to need to understand the terms and conditions and how it differs from a public forum. Seems to me it's like the occassional business meeting where two people get up from the table, whisper something to each other in the corner and then come back with a blank look on their face so that everyone else at the table wonders what they whispered to each other- not very good form in the business meetings I've been involved in- and something I never would have allowed in a PFAL class.
Before this, his posts were halfway informative and even a tad entertaining. (Altho' the entertainment value of his posts was dimished by their length and verbiage.)
quote:This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I WILL...
My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. WE WILL HIT...
My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will ever guard it against the ravages of weather and damage as I will ever guard my legs, my arms, my eyes and my heart against damage. I will keep my rifle clean and ready. We will become part of each other. WE WILL...
Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. WE ARE THE SAVIORS OF MY LIFE.
So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!
The Penta Water thread creed:
quote:This is my water thread. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My water thread is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
My water thread, without me, is useless. Without my water thread, I am useless. I must phrase my words convincingly. I must sound more convincing than my enemy who is trying to discredit me. I must discredit him before he discredits me. I WILL...
My water thread and myself know that what counts in this discussion is not the good it does, the lack of scientific evidence, nor the attacks we make. We know that it is the number of suckers we can convince that count. WE WILL CONVINCE...
My water thread is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its catalog numbers, and its 800 number. I will ever guard it against the ravages of logic and true science as I will ever guard my legs, my arms, my eyes and my heart against reason. I will keep my water thread on top of the thread list. We will become part of each other. WE WILL...
Before God, I swear this creed. My water thread and myself are the defenders of my pyramid scheme. We are the masters of illogic. WE ARE THE SAVIORS OF MY IRRATIONALITY.
So be it, until victory belongs to Penta Water, Inc. and there are no competitors, but only my Penta water remains!
Where did I say anything positive about this foo-foo water? To my knowledge I've never consumed any. -->
And you couldn't tell that the "TM" after FEDGOV was a joke? -->
and THIS section, geez, I didn't know you were into conspiracy theory
quote:The first part, FED, everybody knows refers to Greenie and the boys,
]"FED", when referring to Greenspan, is an abbreviation of "Federal Reserve", but you knew that, right? :P-->
quote:the second part, GOV, even has it's own web domain, the dot gov's.
Then it's got to be evil, eh? :o-->
quote:It's a well connected, well oiled, monolith, ugly as that monster may be. It's wanting to grow into a one world monster, but to the best of my knowledge it still has a way to go to get that accomlished. Maybe evolution will get it there but I wouldn't bet on it.
Yup, yup, yuip. Where do the Illuminati figure into this?
Ya know, I'm beginning to think that a bad experience that David had with a doctor and his rusty--err trusty needle in his early days was what led to this aversion to all things A.M.A.
Heck I know I had a like experience with a needle happy doctor when I was a kid, and that doctor was named Dr. Boris!
{{{shudder}}} Man, with a name like that, how can he ever do right?
quote:I'm partial to mom and pop restaurants and just had to stop in to have a cup of coffee. You never know when and where an interesting conversation will pop up or who will join in- or how long the discussion will continue. I may need a steak dinner before it's all over.
Your now on your 10th pitcher of coffee, and the Muffin Men have taken over. We both know if this discussion had taken place in person, it's outcome probably would have been different, but such is life for the disgruntled PFAL Grad as we know it.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
72
106
68
48
Popular Days
Jan 29
30
Apr 26
21
Jan 18
17
Feb 9
16
Top Posters In This Topic
Raf 72 posts
David Anderson 106 posts
krys 68 posts
oldiesman 48 posts
Popular Days
Jan 29 2005
30 posts
Apr 26 2005
21 posts
Jan 18 2005
17 posts
Feb 9 2005
16 posts
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
All the talk about Hawk's pear juice got me waxing nostalgic.
:D-->
The day before we were to fly out to Steve and Cindy !'s wedding in April I came down with a sinus infection. There wasn't time to get to one of those high falutin' modern "doctors", so I made do with pain killers and over-the-counter medication.
It was not a pleasant flight.
:(-->
During the GS pre-wedding "party in the pastor's room" I partook of a wee bit of Hawk's possibly-legal-in-a-state-or-two Pear Juice. By the time we went back to our room I had no pain, no swelling, no discomfort. I was cured.
Coincidence? Or the amazing anecdotal healing power of another alternative medicine?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve!
I gave my uncle a couple of shots of Hawk's Par Juice, and he suddenly started remembering things he hadn't thought of in 50 years!
Coincidence?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
That's two (count 'em - two) testimonies!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Zixar
You guys better watch out for the Evil FEDGOV™ black helicopters...the AMA and the Illuminati won't just let you market such a miracle cure as "p'ar juice" without getting their cut of the profits!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
David Anderson
Seems Zixar is intent on proving the vastness of what he learned about lymph in ninth grade and now has the proof, in the form of a Wickopedia entry, while at the same time showing that I'm so stupid that my stupidity could kill someone. I mean, everyone knows that the above quote is true, don't they? The Wickopedia entry has probably even been "peer reviewed" by the AMA.
But no, I don't believe it. Whether three liters of plasma "leaks" from the capillaries a day or not, the picture painted by the article is one of a perpetual motion machine that goes in circles, does nothing, and returns from whence it came. And so I'm still of the opinion that lymph originates as chyle in the small intestine, reason being that we do need about three pounds of water a day to live and that water goes somewhere, whether oxygenated or not, whether distilled water or the water contained in coke or coffee, before the kidneys get rid of it.
The best information I have after a couple of years of looking into the matter is that 80% of water is absorbed in the small intestine and gets split with about 1/3 of it going into the blood system and 2/3 going into the lymph system as chyle.
Google has about 772,000 sites under the search "small intestine" and I've read hundreds, perhaps thousands, of them over the past two years. I even found Gray's "Anatomy" on the subject, a 1918 edition, which evidently is famous since he died in the 1860's. Amazing what was known in the 1860's about the samll intestine, even the word chyle (although I couldn't find it in the Wickopedia article offered by Zixar)- obviously it's not needed since the whole lymph system can be described, from beginning to end, as a little leakage from the capillaries that just goes back into the blood system anyway. Even the lacteals, those "pipes" that begin the lymph system, and appear to be twice the size of the capillary "pipes" in the villi of the small intestine, are usually described as going in short order to the blood stream, as though their importance to the lymph system was non existant. But that's AMA stuff, who wouldn't think about a mere massage of the lymph system to make you better. Far superior is pills to kill off the digestive system and the rest of you as well. Pills and the knife, "modern medicine" in a nut shell.
So excuse me for not being able to find the discussion again that pointed out that the lymph system began as chyle in the small intestine. I'd read quite a number of articles like the Wickopedia article before ever finding it. Sorry that I'm not a very good organizer or filing secretary. But then my purpose in beginning this thread was to try and organize all the notes I'd taken on the subject over the past two years and bring some order to them- with a little help from my friends, and hopefully as few distractions as possible from the nay-sayers.
But thanks Zixar for the Wickopedia site. It is quite good, with lots of links to amplify things. It just doesn't say a thing about the progression of the water we drink and where it goes and how it get's there, let alone the oxygen in the water we drink- if there's any in it at all by the time it reaches our mouths.
I guess the bottom line here is that the medical profession deals with people that are sick, not people that are well. If I'm right about what i've deduced so far about the role and value of oxygen in water, there may be a
whole lot fewer sick people to take advantage of and make money from in that profession. I have no quarrel with their dealing with sick people, but the devotees of that profession that want to convince well people that they are on dangerous ground if they do anything not sanctioned by the medical profession, or first approved by it, will have a serious problem with this engineer.
But, alas, we engineers deal with people that are well and can fight back and so generally have to be quite a bit better informed than they are. Same goes for lawyers. They also deal with people that are down, either wanting a divorce, or to settle an estate from someone recently deceased, or needing to declare bankrupcy, or to escape the jaws of the law because of a murder they committed, etc. In short, unwell people due to other causes. So they can, and do, plunder them just as badly as the medical profession does. If an engineer plunders you, at least you're not sick or broke and can fight back. My experience as an engineer is that the plundering is usually in the opposite direction- we get plundered instead of doing the plundering.
As for oxygenated water, I hope I make millions of dollars on it, but I wouldn't bet the farm (if I had one to bet). How well Penta Water is doing I don't know, but the longest standing health foods store in the Cleveland area has carried it for at least two years and to my amazement it's only $1.33 for a 500 ml bottle. Same bottle I bought closer to home for considerably more money less than a year ago. Hey, maybe it will go down to ten cents a bottle and they'll go broke. Then all the nay-sayers can heckle them for being so stupid and not bribing the medical profession into "properly" testing their product, etc, instead of characterizing them as greedy bastards with a .... product. But it would be the same kind of people, just a different line of tripe, that did so.
Anyway, those that are interested in persuing the matter of the lymph system beginning in the villi of the small intestine (villi means fingerlike as they are the active sites mostly on the walls of the middle part of the intestine that extend into it) there are about 369,000 sites to read on google's search for "villi". If you start reading them, you'll come to another word, "Crypt", as it seems the villi start with stem cells that make crypt cells, which then migrate up the structure to become villi and finally die, to be recicyled and digested, all within three days! So the small intestine evidently is a whole new critter every three days. Not only that, it seems that there is also plenty of smooth muscle tissue around to help the digestion process and give it a hydrolic "boost". Hmmm, seems that osmosis is not the only force at work, even though it's commonly reported to be so. Sure didn't know about those little muscles until yesterday. But they're not like your biceps in that they are controlled independently of your will and so get whatever exercise they need without your asking them to go out and work.
Anyway, I'm still waiting for Krys's amplification of the lymph system and sure hope she's not going to settle for Zixar's- which in my view is a poor substitute for what she has to offer. Thanks Krys for all you've helped so far.
And thanks SirGuess for your reductionism vs holistic references. Sure wish the nay-sayers and their strawman tactics (ie. build a strawman and then knock the hell out of him and walk away satisfied that you're a hero) hadn't stopped your thread on breathing with their personal attacks.
Oh, and thanks RAF for your anecdotal evidence that oxygenated water isn't harmful. My very first question, two years ago when I first found out that adding oxygen to water could be helpful, was the possibility that adding too much might be detremental. That was answered to my satisfaction in an email from Dr. Philip James, who carries on what Dr. Haldane started at the Wolfson Hyperbaric Medicine Unit in England. Dr. Haldane is known worldwide as the "Father of Oxygen Therapy" and the Haldane Effect (which deals with O2 effects in the body), as well as the Bohr Effect (which deals with CO2 effects in the body), speed or retard hemoglobin loading and unloading, as does the quality and quantity of water in the body, and such things as pH.
So thanks Cowgirl for your post about the matter of pH balance. It is also a worthy topic for discussion but we still, after 280 posts, haven't even gotten to the point of oxygen in water being noncontroversial, and around for over thirty years (ie. Dr. Pakdaman's work, and water, in Germany), let alone being able to settle down and discuss the Haldane Effect, the Bohr Effect, concentration effects, and pH effects on the rate at which hemoglobin and myoglobin are loaded and unloaded. These are all areas that I surely would like to know more about and if you have further thoughts on how pH might be affected by oxygen concentration in the plasma or lymph, please say on. I'm by no means an expert on these subjects.
I should say that the warning "contraversial" regarding oxygen content in water seems always to come from the folks in the medical field or the fans of medicine. It is in their interest that it stay "contraversial" as long as possible so they don't lose too many customers to good health. Already there are alternative medicine wards in many hospitals because this "niche market" was cutting into their business and they wanted another profit center. Who says Penta Water is the only one interested in making money?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
David,
If I'm not mistaken, you seem to have more of an overall distrust of the medical profession than with the engineering profession, or even than the legal profession. At least, that's what I deduce from the tone of your posts in dealing with these groups.
(If anything, I would think that there would be more deserved mistrust towards the legal profession.)
Keep in mind that engineers can be just as arrogant and/or misinformed as any doctor or attorney. It does depend on the individual, more than the profession, even such as the A.M.A.
I mean, look at some of your own arrogance you displayed here. ... Yes Virginia, you have.
And so, in the immortal words of Sgt. Hulka, "Lighten up, Frances!"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Zixar
I could write an entire paper on willful ignorance based on nothing but your posts in this forum alone.
Here's where you are WRONG about the lymphatic system:
1) While chyle is an ingredient of lymph, it is by no means the primary component, nor is it the initial precursor. Interstitial cellular fluid leakage is the main component and about three liters per day are produced.
2) Lymph does not reenter the bloodstream at the lymph nodes. The lymph goes straight into the bloodstream via the thoracic duct emptying into the subclavian veins.
3) The lymph has been filtered clean at that point. It is not "sewer water".
(Source: Microsoft's Encarta Encyclopedia and WebMD)
Maybe you're describing Chewbacca's lymphatic system, but it sure isn't human.
-->
If the rest of your knowledge is as faulty as your knowledge of the lymphatic system, why do you persist on your public displays of ignorance? If you want to peddle your seltzer here, couldn't you at least take the effort to make sure anyone with a browser and 15 minutes to waste can't falsify your spiel? You're as bad as TWI was at hyping irrelevant crap under a load of pompous faux-pious and pseudo-scientific blather.
Quit wasting everyone's time with your snake-oil screeds. Why not find someplace else that has more gullible, desperate, exploitable people?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Now, now Zix. We all know that Dr. David's disdain for anything A.M.A. related qualifies him, by default, to know more than any medical doctor. ... Without question.
;)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
krys
I cannot refute what Wikopedia and Zixar have stated.
I feel an exorbitant amount of pressure. What I know is not quite good enough. Somebody will have time or inclination to Google every thought perhaps looking for discrepancies. I only know what I know...and I make no claims that I am an indisputable expert!
I'd rather speak in terms of function rather than anatomy.
Everything that goes on within our bodies must take place in an aqueous solution. Circulating systems are necessary to provide and maintain these systems within their operational norms (homeostasis).
Cerebro-Spinal circulation is an entity unto itself which I know very little about. It serves the brain and spinal cord.
The rest of the body is served by 2 circulation systems. One is closed...meaning completely contained within vessels. Blood is pumped by the heart out to the body via one main artery, called the aorta and travels through ever decreasing sized vessels. Eventually the vessels end up in capillaries. Capillaries are where all the exchanges take place...things out....things in...and they are one cell's thickness in size.
The capillaries are spread into an area of the body called a capillary bed. (These are all over the place)on the other side of the capillaries, they join together into increasingly large vessels, and eventually into 2 large veins which empty into the heart. One vena cava comes from above the heart, and the other from below.
Interstitial fluid is fluid between cells. Fluid - mainly an aqueous solution containing nutrients, hormones etc seeps out at the beginning of the capillary bed. This fluid bathes each and every cell. Each cell takes what it needs from this fluid, and empties it's products and waste products back into this fluid. Some of this interstitial fluid seeps back into the capillary bed but most does not, rather washes over layers of cells and is collected into vessels which are small blind ended tubes at one end where this fluid enters.
This is part of the lymphatic circulation. This circulation system has 2 major areas of input. One from the interstitial cells and the other at the lacteals in the digestive system. It has no pump in and of itself.
Lacteals exist in the villi to absorb the products of the digestion of fats and some fat-soluble vitamins. Water and fat don't mix well so this is how these materials are collected after digestion.
[to be continued shortly]
Edited by krysilisLink to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Sigh. That's not what I said. All I said was "I don't think this stuff is harmful." I did not claim this on the basis of any evidence whatsoever, anecdotal or otherwise. It's the absence of evidence that leads me to this conclusion (ie, no reports of people drinking it and developing liver disease, for example).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
David Anderson
RAF, I think I mispoke. What I meant to say was thanks for your being my anecdotal evidence-the kind that some here think is worthless but I don't think is worthless. So maybe by adding your name to that of Mstar1, Oldiesman, myself, Krys, and maybe a few hundred others that I know of (not to mention birds, dogs, cats, horses and the like), who by their actions demonstrate that they don't think drinking oxygenated water is dangerous, maybe the viciousness of one annonomous person, Zixar, will be neutralized. There's probably no hope for folks like George Aar, but I have no quarrel with him because he's only sugested I'm stupid and broke, and I don't mind that. Being called a murderer by stupidity is something entirely different.
I might not be the brightest light in the barn, but I'm not burned out either and so I can tend to horses, and even horses asses, when it's dark outside.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
I would rather you not use me as evidence of anything, unless you're gathering a list of people who think Penta Water is bunk.
I am far more in agreement with what Zixar has written than I am with what you have written, and using me for any other purpose would be dishonest.
And PLEASE stop criticizing people for choosing to remain anonymous on a message board. The tactic has already been discredited several times on this thread.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Pineapple & canadian bacon on a pizza probably won't hurt you either, but you won't get me to eat it
:D-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
I thought I would pop into this thread for a minute...I was curious as to why this thread had nearly 300 posts...
I must admit that I have not read every post... but what I have read sounds so biologically tehnical and elaborate, that I am scratching my head and saying..."yikes".
Maybe I should just cut to the chase...How much for a gallon Dave?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Quack, Quack! Backflush, ..... Quack, Quack!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Link to comment
Share on other sites
David Anderson
So Zixar, are you saying that the thoracic duct is part of the lymph system, and maybe even the subclavian veins are too? Gee, maybe I should have said the lymph system starts with a glass of water sitting on the table, gets picked up by the hand, put to the mouth, swallowed and then ends up in the toilet bowl when we "take a leak". That, at least, would be a complete "system", complete with a beginning and an end, and sure would beat the capillaries taking a leak from the blood stream and going back to the blood stream as complete system.
Oh, and your saying that FEDGOV is a trademarked word is also a lie. The first part, FED, everybody knows refers to Greenie and the boys, and the second part, GOV, even has it's own web domain, the dot gov's. It's headed by Bush and the boys, and although folks like you would like to suggest that it's disjointed and one level not connected to the other (like FDA not connected to IRS), it ain't so. It's a well connected, well oiled, monolith, ugly as that monster may be. It's wanting to grow into a one world monster, but to the best of my knowledge it still has a way to go to get that accomlished. Maybe evolution will get it there but I wouldn't bet on it.
But hey, you seem to have even brought your cheerleaders along to the game in the form of one GarthP, to distract us with black helicoptors and even the name of John Lynn- whatever that has to do with oxygenated water.
So keep telling lies and cluttering up the thread with misinformation if you like, seems I can't stop you from doing so.
But then Raf and Oakspear can't stop me from using their names either as anecdotal evidence that drinking oxygenated water isn't harmful. Not that it means anything, but it is on a par with medical research that says, "here, buy this pill because there's only one chance in ten that it will kill you." I mean, such pills are now pushed in tv ads that will even enhance your sex life, although they caution that your liver (if you have a liver problem) may be damaged and so you should spend more money to go see a doctor to tell you if your liver will object to using the pill.
Hey, now that I think about it, oxygen saturated water might even help your sex life! Why if you give it to a girl she might even like you! But maybe she'll ask for your name first! Oops, here comes your cheerleader to say I'm being sexist by assuming that NoName is a male. So it's ok by me if you want to switch genders in the above sentences.
I don't know, maybe Krys was right in the beginning of this thread when she suggested it be moved to a Private Topic. My intention in starting the discussion was not to put pressure on her and if she thinks it now does do that, why we can always just stop and do exactly that. But before I get involved in a Private Topic, I'm going to need to understand the terms and conditions and how it differs from a public forum. Seems to me it's like the occassional business meeting where two people get up from the table, whisper something to each other in the corner and then come back with a blank look on their face so that everyone else at the table wonders what they whispered to each other- not very good form in the business meetings I've been involved in- and something I never would have allowed in a PFAL class.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
No, but out of decency and integrity I expect you to honor my wish, or at least include that I think your claims are bunk.
It's not a lie. It's a joke, just like Penta Water.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Yup! We got him mad.
Before this, his posts were halfway informative and even a tad entertaining. (Altho' the entertainment value of his posts was dimished by their length and verbiage.)
Now, if only we can get him to debate Smikeol.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
The Marine Corps Rifle Creed:
The Penta Water thread creed:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Where did I say anything positive about this foo-foo water? To my knowledge I've never consumed any.
-->
And you couldn't tell that the "TM" after FEDGOV was a joke?
-->
and THIS section, geez, I didn't know you were into conspiracy theory
]"FED", when referring to Greenspan, is an abbreviation of "Federal Reserve", but you knew that, right?Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Ya know, I'm beginning to think that a bad experience that David had with a doctor and his rusty--err trusty needle in his early days was what led to this aversion to all things A.M.A.
Heck I know I had a like experience with a needle happy doctor when I was a kid, and that doctor was named Dr. Boris!
{{{shudder}}} Man, with a name like that, how can he ever do right?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CWF
Your now on your 10th pitcher of coffee, and the Muffin Men have taken over. We both know if this discussion had taken place in person, it's outcome probably would have been different, but such is life for the disgruntled PFAL Grad as we know it.
It's time for stake.
CW
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.