The fact that doctors of old were wedded to antiquated thinking and had little concept of what they were talking about doesn't color the state of modern science. Those doctors weren't practicing science then anymore than David and other alternative medicine practitioners do now.
They were relying on "we did before and it worked so don't tell me what to do!"
But also note that medicine did eventually come around to practicing good hygiene, once they understood what the hey was going on (bacterial infections, etc.) and had ample testing and data behind them, they changed!
What the "alternative" community wants to do is shortcut the process. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You have to have the testing and the proofs documented before you advocate a treatment.
Yeah, it's takes longer, and it's still subject to human error. But it's all we've got.
To adopt new techniques and treatments without going through the hurdles serves no one. Well, except those that are selling the treatments...
Geo, I agree, but the process has to start somewhere, doesn't it? I'll bet 50 years from now some of the "proof" science has produced today will be debunked, as well. It's an ever-evolving thing, the practice of medicine.
I used to write a column for a medical journal about the newly FDA-approved drugs that were being launched. As a result, I understand to a degree David's skepticism about the gov't's role in safeguarding our health. I don't know how many "miracle cures" and "breakthrough treatments" have been approved (supposedly after rigorous study) and then were later shown to be killing people. I know I've seen more than a few during the past 15 years or so that I was paying attention.
Bottom line, to me, is that I've yet to meet the perfect medical practitioner, whether mainstream or alternative. The best thing we can do is feed and heed our own bodies and avail ourselves of as few drugs and other chemical and surgical treatments as we safely can. (No, I'm not advocating that people toss out their pills--just watch out for the docs who want to prescribe a drug for every ache or pain or sign of aging we experience.)
Yes, you have to start somewhere. You start with observation, then formulate an hypothesis, then you design proper testing, then you draw your conclusions from your testing, then you publish your findings in a peer-reviewed journal, then your colleagues can run the same testing, then they can see if they get the same results and then the results from several different tests can be analyzed, and after all that, if it still seems as though there is some merit to the concept then clinical trials can be started.
Then, after all that, the regimen can then be considered for acceptance as proper medical protocol.
But what the alternative folks usually want to do is go right from "Hey, I've got an idea!" to "here, take this, it works great" and "IT'S ALL NATURAL!" Sorry, no sale.
And given that the supposed benefits of "oxygenated water" (even "non-clustered" oxygenated water that Penta sells) contradicts the accepted norms for how we understand the body to work, AND, any testing on it has shown NOTHING beneficial, all we have then is ANECDOTAL evidence, which to be blunt, is not evidence at all.
Why not have a cocktail of eye of newt, or maybe submit to a little blood-letting to let out those evil humors?
Uh, uh, individuals can do what they please, but when HMOs and the like are required to pay for chiropractic care and acupuncture and other flim-flams, and my insurance rates go up, I get more than a little agitated...
quote:The fact that doctors of old were wedded to antiquated thinking and had little concept of what they were talking about doesn't color the state of modern science
George - - huh??? They weren't hanging on to antiquated thinking...they were doing all they knew how!
And you're right - they weren't practicing science - - they were practicing medicine!
We live in a scientifically and technologically oriented society. When we look back over history, it's very hard for us not to use those glasses and we jump to conclusions.
We have to view these events of the past in their own context, we can't superimpose our own standards on them.
At those times, doctors operated in an open room, it was called a theater because there were chairs in ascending rows. They came fully dressed in coat and tie for these procedures. Med students and other doctors sat in the galleries to learn this new thing called surgery.
Lister sat in one of these theaters and we know he was "pro cleanliness" after he'd worked out the germ theory of disease....and he watched another surgeon drop an instrument on the floor. The surgeon bent over to pick it up off the floor and begin to use it again when Lister gasped and asked the doctor if he wasn't at least going to wipe it off. The operating physician wasn't convinced of Lister's theories and so wiped the blade of the instrument off on his coat sleeve while sneering at Lister.
By the way, it is still called "The Practice of Medicine" to this day. And all have acknowledged that it is a balancing act between art and science.
At this point in time, I've decided that it isn't necessary to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that this works. I look at it this way:
If horses are given the stuff, not in measured quantity, but freely during their training and racing days, and their performance improved...how much more evicence do I need to know that there's a benefit there. I didn't use to think this....really....it's just that in thinking about this thread and writing all these posts, I'm just backing off from the heat of posting and realizing....it ain't rocket science.
We're not talking about administering a "drug". We're talking about oxygen. Horse physiology and human physiology cannot be all that much different in that respect. If thoroughbread horses at the top of their game have been shown to benefit, li'l old me....in my waning years can certainly profit from it.
(I was sure I was feeling better - - but then all this talk about placebo had me guessing for a while - - now I'm convinced it's not a plecebo.)
Yeah, they were practicing medicine, folk medicine. Many doctors of mid-19th century had little or no formal education, IIRC. They were just flying by the seat of their pants.
Far more akin to what David is proposing with "oxygenated" water than modern AMA-style medicine that we know today...
Krys, in reading your last post, I realize I should have said "Lister," not Pastuer. Got my scientists mixed up!
Geo., medicine continues to fly by the seat of its pants every single day. Krys is right: it's a mix of art and science, and I might add it's not always an exact science.
Geo., mark my words. If you and I are around another 30 or 40 years, the modern physicians of that day will be wondering how the physicians of today could have been so naive. I'd bet money on it.
Save your money. I really don't think the doctors of the future are going to look back on us today as being naive anymore than we look back at Salk, Pasteur, and Jenner as naive.
We're practicing medicine, real medicine, today (when it's done right). So there's world's of things we don't yet know, but we build upon that knowledge and get better with each new round of tests, and the resulting failures and successes. And the doctors of tomorrow are going to be standing on the shoulders of those around today. No naivete, just a natural progression of knowledge.
The alternative, though, gives no such insights. Advocates of alternative medicine seldom know how their pet treatment even works. They have no history of testing and development, no record of failures and successes. Just a lot of "Boy, ain't this here stuff swell!" kinda endorsements and a lot of wilda$$ed claims. All of that and we learn nothing...
I was wrong too about scientists Linda. It was Koch who worked out the germ theory of disease....and he did it with controlled experiments! Lister was one of his students.
Linda I will agree with you on the bet, but I won't bet against you.
Geo - - aw c'mon....even in this young country, there were medical schools in 1860! They weren't as good as those in England and the Continent at the time, but it wasn't folk medicine.
Although I do have to say that if the AMA and the pharmacies don't stop getting in each other's way, together with the FDA there isn't goint to be as much progress as we would like.
Also - I never meant to suggest that alternative therapies should replace our medical practices. But in conjunction with them they can be of great benefit.
By the way Geo. I do agree with taxes and HMO's and all that rot. But that's corruption from within and around the systems today. My HMO won't pay for me to consult the Dr. of my preference because he's not on their "approved" list...but it will pay half the drug bills. So - - I see their guy when I need tests or Rx refills and I pay out of my own pocket when I think I'm in trouble to see the Dr. I have come to trust! But - that's the status of health care in the greatest country in the world today....more's the pity.
quote:...medicine continues to fly by the seat of its pants every single day. Krys is right: it's a mix of art and science, and I might add it's not always an exact science.
An Indian chief was asked by his tribe if it was going to be cold this winter, and they wondered how much wood they should gather. After thinking for a bit, he said "It should be cold. Gather a lot".
The chief began to doubt his advice, and got hold of The Farmer's Almanac, and asked them if it was going to be a cold winter. They told him emphatically that it would.
The chief got back to his tribe, and told them to gather even more firewood, saying that the winter would be worse than he thought. The tribe re-doubled their efforts, gathering as much wood as they could for heat and cooking purposes.
The chief (still unsure about the winter forecast), got back in contact with The Farmer's Almanac, and asked them if they were sure it was going to be a cold winter. They again forcefully, and emphatically, told him "YES -- it's going to be a bad winter".
This time, the chief asked them how they could be so certain.
They told him -- "It's going to be a very cold winter. The Indians have really been gathering firewood this year." :D-->
Everyone contributes something, and all contributions add to the totality that eventually benefits us all. ;)-->
if the cutting edge of western and holistic medicines and psychology, and all the best wisdom from the ancient traditions and healing arts were willing to come together and speak the same language...we might really get somewhere. especially if medicine starts moving towards becoming a purely charitable affair...
but sadly, folks in all branches have their many hangups to get over.
a truly integral medicine is on the horizon, though. just keep yer fingers crossed about the money and politics, i guess.
I agree with Linda about the 30 or 40 years til the collective head scratching, but i also think it might be more like 10 or 20, depending on how things go.
Found this reader review of Michael Crichton's new novel State of Fear on amazon.com and thought it might shed a little ancillary light on the whole science vs. pseudo-science issue. The reviewer is a scientist working at the Pasteur Institute, and the novel deals with the environmentalist hysteria/bunk surrounding "global warming".
quote:24 of 27 people found the following review helpful:
At last, a realistic perspective on global warming!, January 24, 2005
Reviewer: Mosquito man "Aedes" (Pasteur Institute, Paris, France) - See all my reviews
As a scientist, this was a joy to read!
I am a specialist in mosquito-borne diseases. I worked for the CDC in the US for 22 years. Now I work for the Pasteur Institute in France.
For more than 12 years I have been battling the mis-information on my speciality that is doled out by global warming alarmists. I believe I am winning: predictions of the "spread" of malaria, dengue and other mosquito-borne diseases were once top of the list of dangers predicted by these ignorant, uninformed people.
Sadly, the alarmists have now switched to sea-level rise and other dangers, despite the protests of professional scientists. Crighton's book reveals the disgraceful way that this mis-information is peddled. Let me summarize in my own words:
More than a million articles are published in peer-reviewed scientific journals every year. The lay-public is unaware of this colossal output; popular information on research findings is limited to "newsworthy" articles, selected, described and interpreted by the media.
Professional scientists rarely draw firm conclusions from a single article, but consider its contribution in the context of other publications and their own experience, knowledge, and speculations. The complexity of this process, and the uncertainties involved, are a major obstacle to meaningful understanding of scientific issues by non-scientists.
In the age of information, popular knowledge of scientific issues-particularly on issues of health and the environment-is awash in a tide of misinformation, much of it presented in the 'big talk' of professional scientists. Alarmist activists operating in well-funded advocacy groups have a lead role in creating and promoting this misinformation. In many cases, they blatantly manipulate public perceptions with emotive and fiercely judgmental 'scientific' pronouncements, adding a tone of danger and urgency to attract media coverage. Their skill in promoting notions of scientific 'fact' sidesteps the complexities of the issues involved, and is a potent influence in education, public opinion and the political process. These notions are often re-enforced by attention to peer-reviewed scientific articles that appear to support their pronouncements, regardless of whether these articles are widely endorsed by the relevant scientific community. Scientists who challenge these alarmists are rarely given priority by the media, and are often presented as 'skeptics'.
The democratic process requires elected representatives to respond to the concerns and fears generated in this process. Denial is rarely an effective strategy, even in the face of preposterous claims. The pragmatic option is to express concern, create new regulations, and increase funding for research. Lawmakers may also endorse the advocacy groups, giving positive feedback to their cause. Whatever the response, political activists-not scientists-are often the most influential cohort in science-based political issues, including the public funding of scientific research.
In reality, a genuine concern for mankind and the environment demands the inquiry, accuracy and skepticism that are intrinsic to authentic science. A public that is unaware of this is vulnerable to abuse.
In a totally unexpected manner, Crichton has succeeded where we scientists have failed: he has communicated with the lay-public.
quote:The following excerpt is from On Being a Scientist: Responsible Conduct in Research, 2nd edition, a report by the Committee on Science, Engineering, and Public Policy, part of the National Research Council. Published by National Academy Press, Washington, D.C.,in 1995.
POLYWATER AND THE ROLE OF SKEPTICISM
The case of polywater demonstrates how the desire to believe in a new phenomenon can sometimes overpower the demand for solid, well-controlled evidence. In 1966 the Soviet scientist Boris Valdimirovich Derjaguin lectured in England on a new form of water that he claimed had been discovered by another Soviet scientist, N. N. Fedyakin. Formed by heating water and letting it condense in quartz capillaries, this "anomalous water," as it was originally called, had a density higher than normal water, a viscosity 15 times that of normal water, a boiling point higher than 100 degrees Centigrade, and a freezing point lower than zero degrees.
Over the next several years, hundreds of papers appeared in the scientific literature describing the properties of what soon came to be known as polywater. Theorists developed models, supported by some experimental measurements, in which strong hydrogen bonds were causing water to polymerize. Some even warned that if polywater escaped from the laboratory, it could autocatalytically polymerize all of the world's water.
Then the case for polywater began to crumble. Because polywater could only be formed in minuscule capillaries, very little was available for analysis. When small samples were analyzed, polywater proved to be contaminated with a variety of other substances, from silicon to phospholipids. Electron microscopy revealed that polywater actually consisted of finely divided particulate matter suspended in ordinary water.
Gradually, the scientists who had described the properties of polywater admitted that it did not exist. They had been misled by poorly controlled experiments and problems with experimental procedures. As the problems were resolved and experiments gained better controls, evidence for the existence of polywater disappeared.
In case the mistakes above are unintentional (as I was so hilariously corrected earlier): it's Littlehawk's Pear Juice.
And I think it's legal in one or two states.
Zix,
Thanks for the links and posts.
And to everyone who disagrees with me: I don't think this stuff is harmful, so good luck and enjoy. I'm not even a little convinced about the efficacy of this product, but I've said my peace on it. Thanks for hearing me out, and sorry if I belittled YOU when I intended only to belittle the claims being made.
I appreciate your links too, Zixar. The kind of experimentation suggested in your last link is the kind that should be done if you're looking for scientic evidence. Perhaps now everyone can understand what I meant when I said that David cannot undertake this proof!
The company was presented with a great opportunity. Too bad they dropped the ball like that.
Hello all. I've some bad news to report. At least I think everyone will be saddened except Grizz- who will probably jump for joy realizing he can now safely come back to Ohio.
Matthew came down from the house over the weekend and said that Fluff was limping again. Ah, the Mighty Fluff, killer of mountain lions and Grizzley Bears, is limping again in his old age. Seems that drinking the oxygenated water last spring only made the limp go away for about six months.
But the water he was given really was for Grandma, Mathews very, very old cat and she died last fall and so Fluff didn't get any more oxygenated water since then. Grandma had been incontenent for about a year and was as lovable a cat as you'll ever find. She liked the water, as did Fluff, but it couldn't turn the clock back and make a kitty out of her again.
So Matthew, with tears in his eyes, dug a hole in the yard to burry her in and while digging came across what he thought was a root. So he cut it with a pair of big nippers and found that it was the gas line coming from the street. Made the neighborhood quite lively for a while with the road being closed off, search lights in the yard as it was dark before the gas company had it repaired- in short, Grandma had quite a send-off.
Anyway, since Fluff wasn't limping anymore he got his old tap water again (well water with zero oxygen in it) that his dad figures is mighty fine water, although i won't drink it as one can smell the sulfur in it- like most wells close to rivers.
So my neighbor John figures it's just the kind of situation to do a double blind test on- and I have to agree. For now we'll just have to say that Fluff's limp went away for about six months and then came back again after drinking no oxygenated water for maybe four months. Ah, I can't wait for the double blind study about to happen.
But the incident brought to mind that in my summary a while back I forgot to include the evidence regarding animals drinking highly oxygenated water. As I said early on, Fluff was the most dramatic, although certainly not the only "evidence" (whether anecdotal, hard, soft, profound, solid, ...., not worthy to read, or whatever you want.)
The first evidence I learned about, and even flew out to Portland, OR to investigate further, was the four horses used in the test by the German firm with it's diffuser. That was a double blind test but not published. The vet in attendence took the blood samples and found both the veneous plasma and the arterial plasma oxygen increased by 18%. The horses preformed the same speed workout with corresponding reduction in heart rate.
Another horse was a standardbred named Jo Jo Road who first started drinking the oxygenated water (but not distilled) from the system I sold the trainer the first part of February last year. If you look at her races during that time she cut about 4 seconds off her time as I recall. It's public information, look it up if you want to. I stopped talking to the trainer a couple of months later when he seemed to me a less than steller guy.
Then there was a thoroughbred who's name I now forget. I'd worked for his trainer maybe eight years ago and she said he would drink no water the day of the race but she didn't mind if I put five gallons in his water bucket anyway. He drank it all and finished mid pack instead of up the track, although the trainer didn't think it was an improved preformance. That was the summer of '03. Three months later I went down again and gave him the water for a couple of days prior to his race and then came back to Cleveland and took a friend to the simulcast facility here to watch the race. After the race she said there was no question in her mind that the horse had run a far superior race to what his past preformances said about him- and she's been looking at thoroughbred races for 50 years or more.
Then there was a five day old kitten the same friend was given that had been born of an alley cat and had a prolapsed rectum from all the worms in her gut at the time of birth and trying too hard to get rid of them. The vet was not very optimistic about her chances but gave her a dewormer and a couple of days later did surgery on her in hopes the rectum would stay inside her. From the time she was given to my friend until after the surgery she was given oxygenated water and she came through the surgery in fine order and the vet commented on how fast she healed up. It's evidence of whatever kind you want to call it.
Then there's the "evidence" reported in the Edmonton Sun, that I posted a while back.
Then there's the chickens that didn't die from the chicken flu in Thialand a year or so ago, while all the other chickens on the farm not given oxygenated water died.
Then there are the four chickens here that are spoiled rotten by me, and watching them drink oxygenated water is like watching a wine tasteing contest. They benifit because of the story I'd learned about the laying hens in Thialand. But none of them were sick and the two new borns have enjoyed it since they were first hatched back in September. I was worried they wouldn't survive the cold of winter here but they've grown very fast and perhaps are like the old line about the American indian in wintertime, "The Indian goes naked with impunity while the white man shivers in his clothes." By the way, the old one eyed rooster, though generally the last one out when I open the door if it's not too cold outside- say mid twenties or above- no longer has gunk coming out of the eye socket and appears to have healed up from the war of the roosters a year or so ago.
Then there is the evidence from the two studies referenced in the one given on this thread to debunk them (the one about horse preformance that never should have been done that's maybe half way back in this thread, and funded by the American Council on Exercse, the "workout watchdog".)
No doubt I've forgotten other "animal evidence", but then I'm not writing a thesis here, just contributing to a general discussion in hopes of learning something and going through the volumes of notes I've taken on the subject over the past two years.
If it was a "class" you all may be assured that I would have something in the nature of a "green card" to fill out for admission. Hell, if I owned a university I'd even have an Office of Admissions to screen out those who couldn't even get in to the university let alone get into a specific class. After all, in any class the teacher is the dictator, no matter that he or she may allow far more roudiness than other teachers might (generally at the expense of the other students, who's time also is valuable).
Krys, I'm waiting for you post on the lymph system so I can learn something. I doubt that most on this thread ever heard of Chyle until I mentioned the word. It is where the lymph system begins, and that I learned from a physiology book, not some kind of bogus double blind, placebo controlled, test that ends with a "p number" to say something like "we're guessing here but the statistical analysis shows there's less than a 5% chance you'll die if we're wrong. As you rightly point out, the devotees of "medical science" confuse it with the exact sciences, which every engineer first has to learn before they're put in a seperate category that actually applies exact science to practical things- the folks generally known as engineers, and who also are generally known as the most creative people on planet earth. I've never used p numbers in my life other than in the numerous statistics courses I've had over the years so I'd know what they were. One vet on Horsescience even corrected my simplistic statement about them and referred me to an education site that defined p numbers as "an estimate that the probability of an assumption being true was correct". I replied, "Yep, a guess of a guess of a guess- third order guesswork". But hey, those that want to worship the medical profession are free to do so, just like those that want to assert the existance of a Trinity- their problem, not mine.
Fact is that the lymph system begins with Chyle in the small intestine and ends with being dumped off into the blood stream at the lymph nodes. What happens inbetween is what I'm interested in learning more about, not in someone who figures they learned all they need to know about the lymph in ninth grade and then posts that they were right after being told by me that they were wrong (Zixar). Fact is that I can go into a one bedroom house or the largest building in the world and tell you where the water comes in and where it goes out, no matter what happens inbetween.
Seems to me that folks need to at least realize that their bodies have a lymph system and that it is twice the size of the blood system. From what I've read, the AMA is way behind Europe when it comes to the study of the lymph system, and that's probably because they never even had a course in college on neutrition until a relatively few years ago. Suffice it to say that there are many qualified and brillient people in the field of physiology and the biological sciences that have as much distain for statistical analysis as I do and are not medical doctors.
Finally, you appear to have gotten the wrong idea about Zixar's post on medical grade oxygen being a danger if not prepared according to "current good practice regulations" or something like that. He implied that welding grade oxygen is inferior to medical grade and that implication was dead wrong. The fact is that both welding grade and medical grade come from the same sources and the regulations for medical grade have no control over anyone not needing a doctors perscription to buy oxygen that is mostly being paid by medicare, and the like.
And one other misperception. Penta Water's five molecule cluster is not the same as water molecules going single file through the cell wall that is five water molecules thick and flipping end for end half way through, for which the folks got the Nobel Prize. Penta Water's claim is only that a five water molecule cluster will end up going through a membrane faster than a larger cluster, and weither that is provable or not remains to be seen. It seems reasonable to me that a small cluster arriving at the cell wall will be easier to order in single file than a larger cluster, but others say that most all water in the body is in five molecule clusters. That also remains to be seen.
As fo an old thought that keeps nagging, anyone wanting to persue "The Amazing Randi's" Prize should realize that the guy is a magician. I've read the reasonable reply of Penta Water to his quiry on his site and his rude response to it. All I can say is that if one wants to go after anything he promises, they aught to think about the rabbit in the hat routine.
I am still working our the lumph stuff. However, I'm still fututzing around with a limping 'puter here. Bad overheating problem which no amount of oxygenated water will help. (tee hee)
When the new one arrives and is set up, I can spend more time searching and scanning and posting.
But this statement
quote: Fact is that the lymph system begins with Chyle in the small intestine and ends with being dumped off into the blood stream at the lymph nodes.
is wrong!
I really need all my 'puter working together to show it to you, however. Please be patient...I haven't forgotten.
I'm glad to hear the cat got better for at least a little while.
My mom once had a daschund(sp?) who lost the use of her hind legs. We were told she would not walk again, and we got the cutest little "wheelchair" for her (she walked with her front legs and wheeled herself along).
We gave her Alpo and tap water, and in six months she was walking again.
Which proves, I suppose, that Alpo and tap water is an incredible combination and must be fed to all dogs and possibly humans immediately. When we do it, people like Chris Reeve will walk again!
quote:I've read the reasonable reply of Penta Water to his quiry on his site and his rude response to it.
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George Aar
And Krys and Lindaz,
The fact that doctors of old were wedded to antiquated thinking and had little concept of what they were talking about doesn't color the state of modern science. Those doctors weren't practicing science then anymore than David and other alternative medicine practitioners do now.
They were relying on "we did before and it worked so don't tell me what to do!"
But also note that medicine did eventually come around to practicing good hygiene, once they understood what the hey was going on (bacterial infections, etc.) and had ample testing and data behind them, they changed!
What the "alternative" community wants to do is shortcut the process. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You have to have the testing and the proofs documented before you advocate a treatment.
Yeah, it's takes longer, and it's still subject to human error. But it's all we've got.
To adopt new techniques and treatments without going through the hurdles serves no one. Well, except those that are selling the treatments...
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Linda Z
Geo, I agree, but the process has to start somewhere, doesn't it? I'll bet 50 years from now some of the "proof" science has produced today will be debunked, as well. It's an ever-evolving thing, the practice of medicine.
I used to write a column for a medical journal about the newly FDA-approved drugs that were being launched. As a result, I understand to a degree David's skepticism about the gov't's role in safeguarding our health. I don't know how many "miracle cures" and "breakthrough treatments" have been approved (supposedly after rigorous study) and then were later shown to be killing people. I know I've seen more than a few during the past 15 years or so that I was paying attention.
Bottom line, to me, is that I've yet to meet the perfect medical practitioner, whether mainstream or alternative. The best thing we can do is feed and heed our own bodies and avail ourselves of as few drugs and other chemical and surgical treatments as we safely can. (No, I'm not advocating that people toss out their pills--just watch out for the docs who want to prescribe a drug for every ache or pain or sign of aging we experience.)
Anyway, I'm meandering, so I'll just shut up now.
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George Aar
Linda,
Yes, you have to start somewhere. You start with observation, then formulate an hypothesis, then you design proper testing, then you draw your conclusions from your testing, then you publish your findings in a peer-reviewed journal, then your colleagues can run the same testing, then they can see if they get the same results and then the results from several different tests can be analyzed, and after all that, if it still seems as though there is some merit to the concept then clinical trials can be started.
Then, after all that, the regimen can then be considered for acceptance as proper medical protocol.
But what the alternative folks usually want to do is go right from "Hey, I've got an idea!" to "here, take this, it works great" and "IT'S ALL NATURAL!" Sorry, no sale.
And given that the supposed benefits of "oxygenated water" (even "non-clustered" oxygenated water that Penta sells) contradicts the accepted norms for how we understand the body to work, AND, any testing on it has shown NOTHING beneficial, all we have then is ANECDOTAL evidence, which to be blunt, is not evidence at all.
Why not have a cocktail of eye of newt, or maybe submit to a little blood-letting to let out those evil humors?
Uh, uh, individuals can do what they please, but when HMOs and the like are required to pay for chiropractic care and acupuncture and other flim-flams, and my insurance rates go up, I get more than a little agitated...
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krys
George - - huh??? They weren't hanging on to antiquated thinking...they were doing all they knew how!
And you're right - they weren't practicing science - - they were practicing medicine!
We live in a scientifically and technologically oriented society. When we look back over history, it's very hard for us not to use those glasses and we jump to conclusions.
We have to view these events of the past in their own context, we can't superimpose our own standards on them.
At those times, doctors operated in an open room, it was called a theater because there were chairs in ascending rows. They came fully dressed in coat and tie for these procedures. Med students and other doctors sat in the galleries to learn this new thing called surgery.
Lister sat in one of these theaters and we know he was "pro cleanliness" after he'd worked out the germ theory of disease....and he watched another surgeon drop an instrument on the floor. The surgeon bent over to pick it up off the floor and begin to use it again when Lister gasped and asked the doctor if he wasn't at least going to wipe it off. The operating physician wasn't convinced of Lister's theories and so wiped the blade of the instrument off on his coat sleeve while sneering at Lister.
By the way, it is still called "The Practice of Medicine" to this day. And all have acknowledged that it is a balancing act between art and science.
At this point in time, I've decided that it isn't necessary to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that this works. I look at it this way:
If horses are given the stuff, not in measured quantity, but freely during their training and racing days, and their performance improved...how much more evicence do I need to know that there's a benefit there. I didn't use to think this....really....it's just that in thinking about this thread and writing all these posts, I'm just backing off from the heat of posting and realizing....it ain't rocket science.
We're not talking about administering a "drug". We're talking about oxygen. Horse physiology and human physiology cannot be all that much different in that respect. If thoroughbread horses at the top of their game have been shown to benefit, li'l old me....in my waning years can certainly profit from it.
(I was sure I was feeling better - - but then all this talk about placebo had me guessing for a while - - now I'm convinced it's not a plecebo.)
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George Aar
Krysilis,
Yeah, they were practicing medicine, folk medicine. Many doctors of mid-19th century had little or no formal education, IIRC. They were just flying by the seat of their pants.
Far more akin to what David is proposing with "oxygenated" water than modern AMA-style medicine that we know today...
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Linda Z
Krys, in reading your last post, I realize I should have said "Lister," not Pastuer. Got my scientists mixed up!
Geo., medicine continues to fly by the seat of its pants every single day. Krys is right: it's a mix of art and science, and I might add it's not always an exact science.
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Linda Z
Geo., mark my words. If you and I are around another 30 or 40 years, the modern physicians of that day will be wondering how the physicians of today could have been so naive. I'd bet money on it.
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George Aar
Linda,
Save your money. I really don't think the doctors of the future are going to look back on us today as being naive anymore than we look back at Salk, Pasteur, and Jenner as naive.
We're practicing medicine, real medicine, today (when it's done right). So there's world's of things we don't yet know, but we build upon that knowledge and get better with each new round of tests, and the resulting failures and successes. And the doctors of tomorrow are going to be standing on the shoulders of those around today. No naivete, just a natural progression of knowledge.
The alternative, though, gives no such insights. Advocates of alternative medicine seldom know how their pet treatment even works. They have no history of testing and development, no record of failures and successes. Just a lot of "Boy, ain't this here stuff swell!" kinda endorsements and a lot of wilda$$ed claims. All of that and we learn nothing...
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krys
I was wrong too about scientists Linda. It was Koch who worked out the germ theory of disease....and he did it with controlled experiments! Lister was one of his students.
Linda I will agree with you on the bet, but I won't bet against you.
Geo - - aw c'mon....even in this young country, there were medical schools in 1860! They weren't as good as those in England and the Continent at the time, but it wasn't folk medicine.
Although I do have to say that if the AMA and the pharmacies don't stop getting in each other's way, together with the FDA there isn't goint to be as much progress as we would like.
Also - I never meant to suggest that alternative therapies should replace our medical practices. But in conjunction with them they can be of great benefit.
By the way Geo. I do agree with taxes and HMO's and all that rot. But that's corruption from within and around the systems today. My HMO won't pay for me to consult the Dr. of my preference because he's not on their "approved" list...but it will pay half the drug bills. So - - I see their guy when I need tests or Rx refills and I pay out of my own pocket when I think I'm in trouble to see the Dr. I have come to trust! But - that's the status of health care in the greatest country in the world today....more's the pity.
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dmiller
An Indian chief was asked by his tribe if it was going to be cold this winter, and they wondered how much wood they should gather. After thinking for a bit, he said "It should be cold. Gather a lot".
The chief began to doubt his advice, and got hold of The Farmer's Almanac, and asked them if it was going to be a cold winter. They told him emphatically that it would.
The chief got back to his tribe, and told them to gather even more firewood, saying that the winter would be worse than he thought. The tribe re-doubled their efforts, gathering as much wood as they could for heat and cooking purposes.
The chief (still unsure about the winter forecast), got back in contact with The Farmer's Almanac, and asked them if they were sure it was going to be a cold winter. They again forcefully, and emphatically, told him "YES -- it's going to be a bad winter".
This time, the chief asked them how they could be so certain.
They told him -- "It's going to be a very cold winter. The Indians have really been gathering firewood this year."
:D-->
Everyone contributes something, and all contributions add to the totality that eventually benefits us all.
;)-->
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sirguessalot
nice...dmiller.
:)-->
if the cutting edge of western and holistic medicines and psychology, and all the best wisdom from the ancient traditions and healing arts were willing to come together and speak the same language...we might really get somewhere. especially if medicine starts moving towards becoming a purely charitable affair...
but sadly, folks in all branches have their many hangups to get over.
a truly integral medicine is on the horizon, though. just keep yer fingers crossed about the money and politics, i guess.
I agree with Linda about the 30 or 40 years til the collective head scratching, but i also think it might be more like 10 or 20, depending on how things go.
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oldiesman
I bought a case of Penta Water this weekend and one thing is certain: this stuff is GOOD WATER. Tastes great!
:)-->
I got it a little cheaper too: around $2.37 a liter, with tax, which is around $9.50 a gallon total.
Couldn't find Littlehawk's Pair Juice
:(-->
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oldiesman
Can Littlehawk's Pair Juice be gotten along the Mohawk Trail?
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krys
I wonder if his pair juice can be superoxygenated?
(could not resist the pun)
I might dring a tad every once in a while...but for sure my main beverage would be the water.
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oldiesman
Kry check your pt
:)-->
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Zixar
Found this reader review of Michael Crichton's new novel State of Fear on amazon.com and thought it might shed a little ancillary light on the whole science vs. pseudo-science issue. The reviewer is a scientist working at the Pasteur Institute, and the novel deals with the environmentalist hysteria/bunk surrounding "global warming".
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Zixar
And another relevant, cautionary example...
Sound familiar?
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Zixar
Here's a good collection of water-quackery debunking: http://www.chem1.com/CQ/clusqk.html#PENTA
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Raf
In case the mistakes above are unintentional (as I was so hilariously corrected earlier): it's Littlehawk's Pear Juice.
And I think it's legal in one or two states.
Zix,
Thanks for the links and posts.
And to everyone who disagrees with me: I don't think this stuff is harmful, so good luck and enjoy. I'm not even a little convinced about the efficacy of this product, but I've said my peace on it. Thanks for hearing me out, and sorry if I belittled YOU when I intended only to belittle the claims being made.
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krys
I appreciate your links too, Zixar. The kind of experimentation suggested in your last link is the kind that should be done if you're looking for scientic evidence. Perhaps now everyone can understand what I meant when I said that David cannot undertake this proof!
The company was presented with a great opportunity. Too bad they dropped the ball like that.
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David Anderson
Hello all. I've some bad news to report. At least I think everyone will be saddened except Grizz- who will probably jump for joy realizing he can now safely come back to Ohio.
Matthew came down from the house over the weekend and said that Fluff was limping again. Ah, the Mighty Fluff, killer of mountain lions and Grizzley Bears, is limping again in his old age. Seems that drinking the oxygenated water last spring only made the limp go away for about six months.
But the water he was given really was for Grandma, Mathews very, very old cat and she died last fall and so Fluff didn't get any more oxygenated water since then. Grandma had been incontenent for about a year and was as lovable a cat as you'll ever find. She liked the water, as did Fluff, but it couldn't turn the clock back and make a kitty out of her again.
So Matthew, with tears in his eyes, dug a hole in the yard to burry her in and while digging came across what he thought was a root. So he cut it with a pair of big nippers and found that it was the gas line coming from the street. Made the neighborhood quite lively for a while with the road being closed off, search lights in the yard as it was dark before the gas company had it repaired- in short, Grandma had quite a send-off.
Anyway, since Fluff wasn't limping anymore he got his old tap water again (well water with zero oxygen in it) that his dad figures is mighty fine water, although i won't drink it as one can smell the sulfur in it- like most wells close to rivers.
So my neighbor John figures it's just the kind of situation to do a double blind test on- and I have to agree. For now we'll just have to say that Fluff's limp went away for about six months and then came back again after drinking no oxygenated water for maybe four months. Ah, I can't wait for the double blind study about to happen.
But the incident brought to mind that in my summary a while back I forgot to include the evidence regarding animals drinking highly oxygenated water. As I said early on, Fluff was the most dramatic, although certainly not the only "evidence" (whether anecdotal, hard, soft, profound, solid, ...., not worthy to read, or whatever you want.)
The first evidence I learned about, and even flew out to Portland, OR to investigate further, was the four horses used in the test by the German firm with it's diffuser. That was a double blind test but not published. The vet in attendence took the blood samples and found both the veneous plasma and the arterial plasma oxygen increased by 18%. The horses preformed the same speed workout with corresponding reduction in heart rate.
Another horse was a standardbred named Jo Jo Road who first started drinking the oxygenated water (but not distilled) from the system I sold the trainer the first part of February last year. If you look at her races during that time she cut about 4 seconds off her time as I recall. It's public information, look it up if you want to. I stopped talking to the trainer a couple of months later when he seemed to me a less than steller guy.
Then there was a thoroughbred who's name I now forget. I'd worked for his trainer maybe eight years ago and she said he would drink no water the day of the race but she didn't mind if I put five gallons in his water bucket anyway. He drank it all and finished mid pack instead of up the track, although the trainer didn't think it was an improved preformance. That was the summer of '03. Three months later I went down again and gave him the water for a couple of days prior to his race and then came back to Cleveland and took a friend to the simulcast facility here to watch the race. After the race she said there was no question in her mind that the horse had run a far superior race to what his past preformances said about him- and she's been looking at thoroughbred races for 50 years or more.
Then there was a five day old kitten the same friend was given that had been born of an alley cat and had a prolapsed rectum from all the worms in her gut at the time of birth and trying too hard to get rid of them. The vet was not very optimistic about her chances but gave her a dewormer and a couple of days later did surgery on her in hopes the rectum would stay inside her. From the time she was given to my friend until after the surgery she was given oxygenated water and she came through the surgery in fine order and the vet commented on how fast she healed up. It's evidence of whatever kind you want to call it.
Then there's the "evidence" reported in the Edmonton Sun, that I posted a while back.
Then there's the chickens that didn't die from the chicken flu in Thialand a year or so ago, while all the other chickens on the farm not given oxygenated water died.
Then there are the four chickens here that are spoiled rotten by me, and watching them drink oxygenated water is like watching a wine tasteing contest. They benifit because of the story I'd learned about the laying hens in Thialand. But none of them were sick and the two new borns have enjoyed it since they were first hatched back in September. I was worried they wouldn't survive the cold of winter here but they've grown very fast and perhaps are like the old line about the American indian in wintertime, "The Indian goes naked with impunity while the white man shivers in his clothes." By the way, the old one eyed rooster, though generally the last one out when I open the door if it's not too cold outside- say mid twenties or above- no longer has gunk coming out of the eye socket and appears to have healed up from the war of the roosters a year or so ago.
Then there is the evidence from the two studies referenced in the one given on this thread to debunk them (the one about horse preformance that never should have been done that's maybe half way back in this thread, and funded by the American Council on Exercse, the "workout watchdog".)
No doubt I've forgotten other "animal evidence", but then I'm not writing a thesis here, just contributing to a general discussion in hopes of learning something and going through the volumes of notes I've taken on the subject over the past two years.
If it was a "class" you all may be assured that I would have something in the nature of a "green card" to fill out for admission. Hell, if I owned a university I'd even have an Office of Admissions to screen out those who couldn't even get in to the university let alone get into a specific class. After all, in any class the teacher is the dictator, no matter that he or she may allow far more roudiness than other teachers might (generally at the expense of the other students, who's time also is valuable).
Krys, I'm waiting for you post on the lymph system so I can learn something. I doubt that most on this thread ever heard of Chyle until I mentioned the word. It is where the lymph system begins, and that I learned from a physiology book, not some kind of bogus double blind, placebo controlled, test that ends with a "p number" to say something like "we're guessing here but the statistical analysis shows there's less than a 5% chance you'll die if we're wrong. As you rightly point out, the devotees of "medical science" confuse it with the exact sciences, which every engineer first has to learn before they're put in a seperate category that actually applies exact science to practical things- the folks generally known as engineers, and who also are generally known as the most creative people on planet earth. I've never used p numbers in my life other than in the numerous statistics courses I've had over the years so I'd know what they were. One vet on Horsescience even corrected my simplistic statement about them and referred me to an education site that defined p numbers as "an estimate that the probability of an assumption being true was correct". I replied, "Yep, a guess of a guess of a guess- third order guesswork". But hey, those that want to worship the medical profession are free to do so, just like those that want to assert the existance of a Trinity- their problem, not mine.
Fact is that the lymph system begins with Chyle in the small intestine and ends with being dumped off into the blood stream at the lymph nodes. What happens inbetween is what I'm interested in learning more about, not in someone who figures they learned all they need to know about the lymph in ninth grade and then posts that they were right after being told by me that they were wrong (Zixar). Fact is that I can go into a one bedroom house or the largest building in the world and tell you where the water comes in and where it goes out, no matter what happens inbetween.
Seems to me that folks need to at least realize that their bodies have a lymph system and that it is twice the size of the blood system. From what I've read, the AMA is way behind Europe when it comes to the study of the lymph system, and that's probably because they never even had a course in college on neutrition until a relatively few years ago. Suffice it to say that there are many qualified and brillient people in the field of physiology and the biological sciences that have as much distain for statistical analysis as I do and are not medical doctors.
Finally, you appear to have gotten the wrong idea about Zixar's post on medical grade oxygen being a danger if not prepared according to "current good practice regulations" or something like that. He implied that welding grade oxygen is inferior to medical grade and that implication was dead wrong. The fact is that both welding grade and medical grade come from the same sources and the regulations for medical grade have no control over anyone not needing a doctors perscription to buy oxygen that is mostly being paid by medicare, and the like.
And one other misperception. Penta Water's five molecule cluster is not the same as water molecules going single file through the cell wall that is five water molecules thick and flipping end for end half way through, for which the folks got the Nobel Prize. Penta Water's claim is only that a five water molecule cluster will end up going through a membrane faster than a larger cluster, and weither that is provable or not remains to be seen. It seems reasonable to me that a small cluster arriving at the cell wall will be easier to order in single file than a larger cluster, but others say that most all water in the body is in five molecule clusters. That also remains to be seen.
As fo an old thought that keeps nagging, anyone wanting to persue "The Amazing Randi's" Prize should realize that the guy is a magician. I've read the reasonable reply of Penta Water to his quiry on his site and his rude response to it. All I can say is that if one wants to go after anything he promises, they aught to think about the rabbit in the hat routine.
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krys
I am still working our the lumph stuff. However, I'm still fututzing around with a limping 'puter here. Bad overheating problem which no amount of oxygenated water will help. (tee hee)
When the new one arrives and is set up, I can spend more time searching and scanning and posting.
But this statement
is wrong!I really need all my 'puter working together to show it to you, however. Please be patient...I haven't forgotten.
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Zixar
Click here for a description of the human lymphatic system. (note well that it reveals several of David's factual errors...)
Click here for the actual definition of a "double-blind" experiment.
Click here for reasons why quackery persists.
Click here for the definition of the type of defense David is using.
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Raf
I'm glad to hear the cat got better for at least a little while.
My mom once had a daschund(sp?) who lost the use of her hind legs. We were told she would not walk again, and we got the cutest little "wheelchair" for her (she walked with her front legs and wheeled herself along).
We gave her Alpo and tap water, and in six months she was walking again.
Which proves, I suppose, that Alpo and tap water is an incredible combination and must be fed to all dogs and possibly humans immediately. When we do it, people like Chris Reeve will walk again!
Judge for yourself.
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