Interesting you didn't seem to catch David's (note the correction :D-->) deriding tone and out-of-hand dismissal of those who challenge him on his theories. (And what's with David's comparison of his oxygen saturated water theory to the gospel of Christ as far as the 'naysayers' go? Like one automatically goes with the other?)
Guess what? That kind of challenge that we used to refer to as 'unbelief' in TWI, is called 'healthy skepticism', and is necessary in a free society. And its especially important in the scientific community. So David should be well aware that scientists and like people are going to be 'naysayers' (so to speak) in that regard. (Ie., show me proof) It's part of the 'job description'.
And it's the means that has served the scientific community and the general community very well, thank you very much.
Ie.., in the scientific process and practice, one does NOT 'live by faith'.
quote:Can't ssome of us disagree without being so dismissive of a couple of intelligent people's (i.e., David's and Krys's) opinions?
Gee Linda,
David has no studies whatsoever to back his claims. He derides, belittles and ridicules those who challenge him. He equates (with analogy) his message with the Gospel and himself as Jesus, eg - they didn't beleive Jesus either...
Yet you come to his defense and turn on the "naysayers" and call them/us errantly dismissive.
I appreciate your warm words, Linda. These wings ain't goin' nowhere soon!
It's not likely that there will be any published studies proving the benefit of oxygenated water. It's new...and those who have disproved it, in my opinion, have no validity because of the kinds of subjects they used.
My breathing has been seriously compromised by the smoking I did + the many years of working with formaldehyde dissecting cats etc, + the other chemicals I used before everything in chemistry was done under a hood + being stuck in a pine forest fire when I lived in New Mexico.
I had 2 rounds of pulmonary rehabilitation. The first time I was very strictly held to a limited quantity of supplemental oxygen while I exercised. After 12 weeks of this I had regained so much strength that I could hardly believe it. (I had become week due to poor breathing and excessive fatigue...it seems with muscles...use them or lose them)
The second time I went to rehab was to restore what I lost after about 10 weeks of bed rest following the auto accident. This lab was run differently. They opened the supplemental oxygen as far as it would go and pushed me to the physical limit...every single day. After 12 weeks of this, I was in much much better physical shape than before the accident.
When I exercise now...I use as much as I need to keep my stats where they belong. That is how I know that primed athletes won't do any better with supplemental oxygen from any source especially on a one shot trial.
I wonder what would happen if you put prime athletes on unlimited supplemtal oxygen?
I had not intended on revealing as much as I have because I consider it kind of personal, but now that it's out of the bag, so to speak...you may understand my interest in this.
Water and alcohol are both absorbed directly from the stomach...they do not need to go through the gut to be absorbed into the blood stream. I have a pulse-oximeter (one of the finger pinch kind) which I use religiously when exercising to monitor my stats. I know that I can perform better on my treadmill after a bottle of Penta than if I didn't drink it.
I chugged 2 in a row to see if the oximeter showed increased oxygen and it didn't. That means that no additional oxygen hopped on hemoglobin....but that does not mean it wasn't in the plasma. If it's in the plasma, it's fair game for cells to use. (They can't use it on the hemoglobin anyway).
Yes, I am in tune with my body - I have to be.
I wrote what I wrote of my personal experience because I felt some obligation to say something other than "I don't think it's placebo effect". There is something there...I just don't know for sure what it is.
Also - I don't need any posting credentials. I know that. I wrote what I wrote out of deferance (sp) to David to does appear to know lots more than me...and perhaps more than other braniacs (used in fun, not to put down).
I think we'd all lose some potential wealth if he left these forums.
Krys: I never said that the oxygen wasn't there. At any rate, even if your perceived improvement is completely due to the placebo effect it doesn't mean it isn't helping you. Mind over matter, and all that. Please don't feel like I'm attacking you or discounting your experience, because I'm not. You know I have the greatest of respect for you and would not contradict you out of malice or spite in any circumstance.
There are a couple of points I'd like to make, though.
1) The athletes in the study who showed no improvement? Okay, what about a thoroughbred race horse specifically bred for peak physical performance? David claims that extra oxygen works miracles for these animals, so it stands to reason that human athletes should get a proportionate boost to performance, same as his horses. They didn't.
2) If dissolved oxygen in water is such a wondrously beneficial delivery system, then the reverse, dissolving carbon dioxide in water, should suffocate the body, no? You don't see people dropping like flies from drinking Coke and Pepsi. (Beer, maybe, but they're keeling over from a different chemical, obviously. :)--> )
3) If water is such an efficient transport mechanism for metabolic oxygen, why do fish need gills to extract it?
I'm glad the stuff is helping you, but whatever's going on, I highly doubt that it's for any of the reasons David has gone on about. It's the same kind of anecdotal "science" that keeps the UFO people happy with their governmental-suppression conspiracy theories and wishful thinking passed off as expert testimony in reams of scientific-sounding doublespeak.
You know science. You know good and well that this could be properly tested and verified or falsified in short order. The negative studies can't just be pooh-poohed away. If the experiment were repeatable and valid, the oxy-water folks wouldn't have to do such a snake-oil sales job in order to get people to buy into it, because the results would be plastered over every paper in the free world and Big Business would be pumping O2 into everything they could get their mitts on and charging you twice the price to eat and drink your daily air.
It just doesn't pass the reality check. That's no reflection on you, just on the product.
Oh, and remember--just because it's an "alternative" product doesn't mean Big Business won't be interested because they can't patent it or whatever. You know how regular bottled water is all the rage nowadays, when 30 years ago it was almost unheard of? Now every soft drink manufacturer sells bottled water, usually for the same price as their soda pop--and a lot of it comes right out of the tap at the factory. It's true--read the labels on bottled water at the grocery. Many will come right out and admit the source is something like "San Antonio Municipal Water"--pure tap water.
The race horses in question were given only oxygenated water to drink. Human athletes were given a measured quantity one time. What would happen if the athletes were given oxygenated water only (as opposed to any other beverage) for a month and then tested? I don't know but mine is a better question than yours for this kind of test (I think)
Carbon dioxide will not suffocate you...lack of oxygen will. It's not the lack of oxygen that causes you to breathe, but the quantity of carbon dioxide that does. Some people with very serious lung desease cannot pass carbon dioxide out well enough...they are called "retainers". They never suffocate but it is thought that at night when they are sleeping they may "forget" to breathe. These folks have a special apparatus for providing positive pressure at all times to make sure they don't stop breathing.
Water is not an ideal means of delivering oxygen under normal conditions. Fish have gills to extract what little there is in there. Maybe there's 4 - 10% of oxygen dissolved in the water (depending on temperature) but there's 21% dissolved in air.
I don't have all the answers. I'm looking for some IF they exist. It does help me, but I'm not "normal" (take that any way you like to....tee hee)so I'm out of the pail so to speak.
Yes, I do know good and well that this should be properly tested. I don't have the funds to do so, though. I do believe that 500 ml (about 16 oz) given to 6 athletes 1 time does not constitute a valid test!
I'm not taking any of these scientific reflexions personally. These are all questions to ask (plus a number of others I can think of).
There is nothing wrong with your brain, excathie! Yours is trained differently from mine and most of the other scientific types. Don't ask me to do calculus or learn a language, though.
There are plenty of things for our health and healing. Most of the time we would stay out of hot water if we followed better health rules and lifestyles. We always say, it will happen to the other guy - until one day you wake up and realize you ARE the other guy.
quote: 2BURP! WAS IT THE OXYGEN IN THE WATER, OR THE AIR IN THE HEAD?
According to Sports Illustrated, hockey players in the Stanley Cup finals relied on "oxygenated water" to boost blood-oxygen levels. According to Oxyl'Eau, the Canadian company that sells it, the boosted water has twice the oxygen of tap water, or about 1500 ppm, which is certainly possible if it's bottled under pressure. Assuming the oxygen miraculously ends up in the blood instead of the bladder, how much of this water would it take to supply even 1% of a player's oxygen? A trained athlete playing hard uses about 0.13 grams of oxygen per second. WN calculates that players will need to drink 3 liters in a 60 minute game for a 1% boost. Doable perhaps, but they would need frequent breaks.
RAF, the above quote comes from Dr. Park's weekly online newsletter, "What's New", July 23, 1999. Notice that he has referenced a bottled water company that, he claims, publishes that their water has twice as much oxygen as tap water and that this amount is 1500 ppm.
At first I thought it was just a typo in his newsletter because 15.00 ppm is close to double the amount of oxygen in tap water. But then one wonders why any company would advertize both the words "double that of tap water" and "15.00 ppm" (or 1500 ppm for that matter) in the same ad, as if four significant figures had any relivance whatsoever.
But then he says that bottling 1500 ppm water is certainly doable if bottled under pressure. I assure you that bottling water with oxygen in it at 1500 ppm would take a bottle that would hold 20 atmospheres of pressure or close to 300 psig. There is no bottle that I know of in the beverage industry that will safely withstand such pressure- and I rather think Dr. Park knows that!
Fact is, that if he meant 15 ppm instead of 1500 ppm, there would be no pressure needed to bottle it if a.) the water was bottled to the very top of the bottle, like Penta Water does, or b.) the gas over the water was oxygen rather than air.
And even in an air atmosphere it would only generate pressure if the temperature was raised, which is why one generally hears a psst with Coke and Pepsi's entries into the bottled water business (Disanti and Aquafina), when the bottle is opened luke warm rather than being taken out of the refrigerator.
Anyway, Dr. Park admits in his next newsletter that that his calculations were seriously off- but nowhere corrects the 1500 ppm number, and his relying on it to do his calculation as to how much water the hockey players would have to drink to boost their blood oxygen level by 1%, proves that he used it. So in either case, whether a misprint or deliberate, Dr. Park's follow-up "correction" is deliberately misleading.
Anyway, I took the liberty to email him so we'll see if he replies. Below is that email.
quote: Subject:
"Superoxygenated water"
Date:
Wed, 19 Jan 2005 04:21:53 -0500
From:
anders@en.com
To:
whatsnew@bobpark.org
Dear Professor Park:
I'm a mechanical engineer (Rutgers, '66) that has been investigating the
matter of adding oxygen to drinking water for the past two years.
Though the term "superoxygenated" is misleading, you obviously know that
tap water is a long way from being saturated with oxygen. So the
question becomes one of the possible benifits of drinking oxygen
saturated (or even oxygen enriched) water.verses drinking tap water or
well water.
This morning I read a quote of you stating that the oxygen in water has
to get into the blood stream to do any good and am wondering if you ever
thought about the water that goes directly into the lymph system and
passes the circulatory system entirely (which appears to be 2/3's of it
since the lymph system is evidently twice the size of the circulatory
system).. If that water is anywhere close to being saturated with
oxygen ( 75 ppm) by the time it takes to get to and through the small
intestine (evidently about 6 minutes), it would substantially increase
the oxygen concentration and partial pressure of the chyle to above that
which hemoglobin can deliver- sort of a hyperbaric chamber effect but in
a bottle at atmospheric pressure..
Perhaps you know the human body better than I do and care to comment.
Even better, if you have a good friend in the physiology department and
could discuss the matter over lunch with him, who knows where the
discussion might lead.
Here's hoping,
David A. Anderson, PE
For those who don't know what PE means at the end of my name I should explain lest anyone try to sue me for using it. It means "Registered Professional Engineer", and is obtained by passing 16 hours of exams after obtaining a bachlors degree in an engineering field, working as an EIT- "Engineer in Training" for four years, (eight years if one has no engineering degree but can still pass the tests) and then writing a paper on a design project (to show one was not idle during the EIT period.)
But that was in 1970 when I fulfilled the requirements and was "Registered" (ie., my name entered in an official register and the number given me shows the line in the register where anyone can find the entry- if the register still exists!)
I only learned lately that in 1980 the Administrative Codes were changed so that FEDGOV could collect yet another tax by requiring PE's to pay a yearly fee to keep their "License". Seems that in spite of the obvious work required to obtain the designation PE, that now it is considered a privilege bestowed by FEDGOV rather than a right obtained by demonstrated preformance. And since FEDGOV claims to have bestowed the "privilege" it obviously can tax the privilege. I've never paid that tax and have no intention of ever doing so. And so I didn't affix PE after my name in hopes of engaging in commerce with Dr. Park but only to show that I was registered even if not currently licensed. Seems that "Registered" and "licenced" are as confused by the powers that be today as 1500 ppm oxygen in water and 15.00 ppm oxygen in wateris confused by Dr. Park.
But if anyone cares to read Dr. Park's current newsletter, they'll see that he comes from the typical Bible Bashing, evolution promoting, crew that many in the Church of Reason come from. (ie. he takes the recent Tsunami disaster as an occassion to belittle the Book of Job.)
So, RAF, I'm not optimistic about receiving a reply from him but allow that it could happen.
What the recent batch of naysayers seem to have in common is that they, like Dr. Park, assume that the oxygen in water has to get into the blood stream to do any good. I've tried to show that this is not the case. But my limited view of the lymph system seems only to have reached a resonant chord in Krysilis so far.
My view comes from physiology text books used in medical schools and not "peer reviewed" medical "research". If someone can demonstarate that water, and any oxygen dissolved in it, does not go directly into the lymph system from the small intestine, then the texts books I read are wrong and I am wrong. But I don't think they are wrong and so I don't think I am wrong. So, until someone can show that the normal ratio of 2/3 water going into the lymph system and 1/3 going into the circulatory system is wrong, all the burpers, naysayers, or 8th grade general math students (those who hate math!) who just want to be heard in the classroom even though they've done no homework and have nothing to add to the class but are merely trying to figure out whether they are adults or children as hormonal growth factors run rampant, will change that. 7th, 8th and 9th graders have a lot on their plate without having to be subjected to sitting for an hour a day in a "math for dummies" class. In fact, a friend who has taught all her live figures they should all just stay home and not go to school at all during that time. We probably do them all a disservice by making them do so.
But here we have the same mentality show up to "strut their stuff" and they could be having a good time elsewhere! What a pitty, expecially if I'm right that they really aren't junior high students.
But hey Paw, looks like it's good for business at this fine establishment (if the kids don't break all the tables and chairs.)
Exactly what do flagrant self-aggrandizement, along with fallacious appeals to irrelevant authority, cum hoc ergo propter hoc arguments, and ad hominem attacks have to do with quack chemistry?
Let me guess, you could tell me, but then the Evil FEDGOV™ would have you eliminated because you failed to pay their cruel and oppressive credential maintenance tax?
I've already seen this movie, though. It was called The Abyss, in which Michael Biehn goes crazy due to high-pressure oxygen toxicity and tries to blow up aliens with a nuclear warhead. Perhaps too much oxygen makes you hallucinate that somehow a lapsed mechanical engineering credential makes you more competent to speak about biochemistry. Not quite as exciting as blowing up aliens with nukes, but reality rarely lives up to the fantasy anyway.
And, let's see...it isn't oxygen in the bloodstream, it's oxygen in lymph, right? Oh, okay. Except for the fact that the lymphatic system drains directly into the bloodstream via the subclavian veins. Oops. Think I learned that in 9th grade biology. Pity all of us didn't, apparently.
As for the rest, it's little more than a new variation on the Chewbacca Defense. -->
I would echo what Zix said, if I could understand it. :)-->
Dave, if you looked at superoxygenated water with half of the critical eye and skepticism you applied to the book of James, you would recognize it for the pure bunk that it is.
I don't know what you're talking about in terms of "naysayers" and the "Church of Reason." It seems to me the only people who are actually documenting the value of the product you're promoting are the people selling it. Anyone who looks at this product with an objective eye is walking away with the exact same opinion: it's bunk.
quote: #1. Normally red blood cells live about 90 days in a healthy normal adult. When they begin to become inefficient, they are sent to the spleen for storage in case of emergency. If not used they go to the liver where they are systematically decomposed and some of their parts sent to waste, and some to produce bile and some to be recycled into new rbc's.[in an emergency, the spleen will forcefully contract and squeeze these not up to par cells into circulation to assist a failing system. Hey - it's not perfect, but some assistance is better than none at all.]
Thanks Krys for the input- and for all your input on this thread. I was under the impression that horses could store hemoglobin in the spleen but people couldn't- but that piece of information came from the "owner" of of the Horsescience group, Tom Ivers.
According to him, when the heart rate of a horse goes above 160 bpm, their spleen dumps up to 50% more hemoglobin into the blood stream but that people's spleens don't have the capacity to do that. Perhaps it's a matter of degree rather than either/or.
In any event, it helps explain what was going on with my cousin Russ after five years or more fighting lymphatic leukemia. It seems that his spleen lost the ability to release hemoglobin and so when they finally had to take it out, after many blood transfusions over a period of months, the surgeon said it was the largest spleen he'd ever seen. Until your post, I thought the human spleen was merely a filter of sorts that screened out the dead cells and sent them to the trash bin and passed on the live ones and his screen broke so that the live hemoglobin went to the trash as well.
The ninety day average life cycle of a Red Blood Cell is a great piece of information to know because it points out that the circulatory system is not some static machine that one is born with and dies with, but rather a living, breathing unique set of cells that live, work, get sick and die (at least the Red Blood Cells do) all in a 90 day period of time. If it turned out that they were more healthy for that time, or perhaps lived another day or week by being surrounded by a hogher oxygen pressure in the lymph, that would be a wonderful thing.
By the way, PubMed.com is a rich resource for studies done on oxygenated water as well as the rest of medical research. Many of the studies published there only have abstracts available for free and one must pay for the full paper- ah, even they are after our money! It is the main online archive for the National Institute of Health.
There is another like it but I forget the name of it right now. Just punch in "oxygenated water" to their search engine and you'll see that the study of the subject is not as new as many here think it is. I think you'll even find Dr. Pakdaman's work back in the late 60's or early 1970's there- at least in the reference section of more recent papers. His was a published medical study done by a cancer surgeon on his patients using "Pakdaman's Water". The problem is it was published in German and I only had access to part of it, translated by the friend of a standardbred trainer I met from Finland, who's friend lives in Germany. His study, like many others I'm sure, would have been terminated as soon as he was convinced that everyone would benifit from it. Surely he would not have continued beyond that point because it would have been entirely unethical to withhold the oxygenated water from the cancer patents in the control group.
Oh, and I owe you all an apology because I thought that all the posts to this thread came to my email box. I've read all that did come there but in going over the last two pages of this thread it seems that there are some that are posted that never made it to my inbox. I don't have the foggiest notion as to why that happened.
And thanks Linda for trying to instill a little order to this thread. I don't think you had a thing to apologize for.
A few comments for the detractors. First, I think the one about 3% carbon monoxide in welding grade oxygen is total horse dang.
A major oxygen producer is on the Ohio River about 100 miles from here, and right next to Mountaineer Race Track. At the time I wanted to put a wading pool in the long walk back to the stables so that horses after a race could not only wash off and cool off while walking back after a race but could enjoy the benifits of oxygenated water to their skin while doing so. Normally the cost to do so would be prohibitive, except that this huge plant is right next door to them. Still working on that one.
Anyway, the plant manager said that five truck loads of liquid oxygen went up to Detroit every week for their municipal and waste water treatment facility. That's 100 tons or thereabouts of LIQUID oxygen. The "only burp" folks can probably figure out how many burps that would be. Fact is that medical grade, welding grade, and aviation grade oxygen all come from the same process. So if the poster is right that there can be 3% carbon monoxide in welding grade oxygen, then it's also in medical grade and aviation grade.
And the matter suggesting that I was comparing myself to Jesus Christ by quoting him as saying "though one raise from the dead still some won't believe" takes only the tinest bit of logic to figure out, ie. raise someone from the dead with oxygenated water and some still wouldn't believe it worked. My comment was about recalcitrant unbelief, like that displayed by some here the past few days, and had nothing whatsoever to do with me playing god.
And a word about bleach. Bleach is sodium hypoclhorite and it's the chlorine that does the bleaching. What species of oxygen that may help I don't know, perhaps the resident chemist can amplify. I've learned precious little from him so far. From the comments about bleach one would think that everything in the world should be white from all that oxygen in the atmosphere.
As for Oxyclean, the bottle I have of the liquid variety says it's a "secret blend of detergents" and the solid variety says that it should be mixed thoroughly with water so I assume it just avoids having to ship all that water around the country and therefore costs less. It does say that it contains no chlorine and that it breaks down into "naturally occurring elements", but doesn't say which naturally occurring elements. Ozone comes to mind, as does hydrogen peroxide, as does phosphates. I'm not suggesting anyone drink bleach or oxyclean.
So how we could get to bleach from a discussion on oxygenated water, is truly bizzare. But since the subject of bleach has come up, a story comes to mind from the horse trainer I worked for back in '97. Seems there was a trainer that was getting tapped out on his feed bill and so a friend told him he'd heard that bleach will either make his horse run great or kill him. So the jerk stuffed a gallon of bleach down his throat and, of course, the horse died. Hey, it solved his feed problem! Jerk!
And about "The Church of Reason". A best seller back in the early 70's, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence", by Robert Persig, goes into it in great detail- after warning us at the start that the book wasn't very fair to Zen and wasn't very accurate about motorcycles either. I used to give a copy of it to all my chemistry and physics students.
Anyway it's still in the philosophy section of most book stores and no doubt can be found on eBay or whereever in paperback form.
Persig makes the case that the scientific community functions just like the organized church. It has it's hierarchy that functions on the level of greed, lies, income, control and pecking order, and it's "true believers" that function entirely independently of the hierarchy- until push comes to shove and the true believers get kicked out or give up and leave.
So it is with any field. One has to watch out for the hierarcy while not dismissing the true believers. I daresay that applies to the field of medicine in spades, especially when it comes to "medical research" and things like "p numbers". Generally such research is funded by a drug company or their serogates so their product can get approved by USDA and they can make lots of money. The trick there is to show that the possible benifits of the drug outweigh the possible damage. The true believers doing such work are few and far between because they don't get funded unless they toe the line with the hierarchy.
So far on this thread I trust that most of the "true believers" reading have remained silent while those that figure I'm out to set up yet another pecking order in the Church of Reason are the rudest and most adament to prove that I'm a jerk.
For example, the tirade about my explaining what PE meant was brought on by my decision to post the email sent to Dr. Park. I could have just deleted the PE in the copy posted on this thread but then it wouldn't have been what I sent to Dr. Park and someone, sooner or later, would say I was deceptive in not posting the exact email to him. Heads I lose, tails I lose. So I just read the tirade and said to myself, "jerk!" I'm sure he doesn't care in the slightest that I think he's a jerk and I don't care in the slightest that he thinks I'm a jerk.
But the fact is that Dr. Park's name came up as an authority in physics to debunk oxygenated water and the hours it took me to find out about him showed him to be more interested in propaganda than in teaching anyone any physics.
Anyway, maybe next time I'll just summarize what I think are the salient points of this thread and move on down the line. What I'll remember is that Krys was actually helped by drinking oxygenated water. I knew Kit Sober was helped before I even got here. Hopefully others are at least thinking about the possibility that it might help them. As for the rest, have a nice life.
Re:"Would be interesting to see what their take is on this superoxygenated water routine would be."
Oh, I think everyone knows what their take would be. Superoxygenated water. It's snake oil pure and simple. Lots of folks are taken in by snakeoil claims
(see list here) but that doesn't validate it anymore than folks who say Muhammed cured them of cancer. Lots of suckers for pseudoscience out there.
NOW!! when they start banning superoxynated water from being consumed by olympic athletes (or even college athlestes for that matter) then we can start taking a serious look. But of course... those who aren't suckers for charlatans know... this stuff is BS!!!
Look at the words you use here. You seem to confuse the scientific process and that which is based on faith. It even shows itself with your statement about
quote:Persig makes the case that the scientific community functions just like the organized church.
Now its true that there are scientists and the like who are/act very religious (read prideful and arrogant) as regards their theories, and I'll bet even money on far more of their theories wind up having large holes in them than not. (Such is usually the manner of arrogant people. They are arrogant in order to cover up for the flaws in their theories and the insecurities in their lives). But the overall field/process of science differs from that significantly. Hell, it even corrects itself, much to the chagrin and loss of those aforementioned arrogant stuck-ups.
So look at how you deal with us 'unbelievers'; 'detractors' and 'naysayers' you call us. And for nothing more than a practice which is required in any field of science. *Skepticism*! For such is the way of proving things. Of disproving things. Of separating the 'wheat and the chaff' (to use a biblical term) Thats the way the big boys play in the field of science (and dare I say, in engineering as well, my friend ;)-->) and if you want to play with them, you gotta learn to take the skeptics with the ((cough)) ((GAG)) 'believers'. -->
Huffing off with all your marbles with a 'have a nice life', ain't gonna cut it. (You do sound a bit miffed there, dude) Neither does you're bandying about of your engineering degree and other accomplishments. That's called 'the fallacy of appeal to authority', which in itself doesn't prove squat.
Here's a phrase that you might find enlightening as regards this kind of process:
"In religion, to question is HERESY (hierarcy? ;)-->)
In science, to question is REQUIRED."
Think about that one for a bit. It sure works for me!
Sudo,
Well, it seems that David's approach of separating the sheep and the goats, religion-style, sure isn't gonna find out for us for sure now, will it?
Besides, I think I'll trust Penn and Teller's approach a tad more. As well as Scopes. They put more emphasis on this kind of skepticism I'm talking about.
Just let me know what the final tally really proves to be.
47 posts, all on one thread, all selling one thing. Seems like a lot of work for a 'drive-by' doesn't it? Most people would just give a sales pitch for their product, leave a URL, and move on.
1. About the time I was leaving twi (early 70's) D. Pakdaman, MD, was making 50ppm oxygenated water for his cancer patients in Germany. In the test group of 16 patents, the 8 that were the control group all deteriorated as expected while the 8 given "Pakdaman's water" all improved. The groups plasma oxygen partial pressure was down around 20 mm Hg. and the test groups partial pressure rose to over 30 in 6 minutes after drinking a glass of Pakdaman's water and stayed above 30 for over an hour. (maximum pressure developed from healthy hemoglobin is 39 mm Hg.)
2. In the 30 or more years since that time, bottled water has become a more popular drink than Coke or Pepsi, those two companies now marketing their own bottled water (Disanti and Aquafina). Though many bottled water products may have no oxygen added, both Coke and Pepsi's product is about double the oxygen concentration found in tap water (15 ppm vs 8 ppm). Numerous other bottled water that has come up on this thread
to continue:
Numerous other bottled water that has come up on this thread (that mentioned in a Sports Illustrated article regarding Stanley Cup Hockey players, the Park flame and the "study" at U of Wisconsin that should never have been done) also contained double the amount of oxygen found in tap water. Other flames have mentioned bottled water that is no more than tap water and so buyer beware applies to those buing bottled water.
Penta Water does have 40-50 ppm oxygen added and I've explained how you can make it yourself at the maximum level under atmospheric conditions of about 75 ppm.
3. Fish hatcheries have routinely used 20 ppm water to transport fish- which is the reason most dissolved oxygen meters only go up that high. Due to the increased interest in oxygenated water, one European firm, OxyGuard, now makes one that goes up to 50 ppm and their web site says it is a popular item world wide. (costs about $700).
4. Long about the time that Park was publishing his flame (1999) a German firm sent a representative to test their defuser and the oxygenated water made with it, on horses in Portland, OR. Those tests were not published except that the owner of the Horsescience list, not subject to the companies nondisclosure requirement, and a consultant for the horse farm that had the high speed tread mill, published them on his web site. Those tests showed that horses having access to oxygenated water around the 40 ppm level for four hours prior to test, ran at the same rate of speed with with a 15-20 % decrease in heart rate and both veneous and arterial plasma oxygen levels were 18% higher. This was a cross-over test- and is how I first learned about the subject of oxygenated water, as the owner of the list wanted me to come up with a simple way to make the water so he could sell it to horse people.
5. In June, 2003, my cousin Russ fainted while going to get a drink of water while waiting to be called at the Cleveland Clinic and this event caused me to get serious about oxygenated water. Both he and I experienced noticable and positive benifits from drinking the home-made, distilled, oxygen saturated water. My biggest concern at the time was the possible negative consequences of drinking such water but in the months that followed those concerns were dispelled, first by Dr. Phillip James, then by Dr. Paul Spears, then by numeropus other doctors, vets, and the like, and finally by all the evidence of perhaps millions of people drinking oxygenated bottled water, whether the oxygenation level is published on the label or not.
6. In November 2003 I flew out to Portland to see the treadmill and set-up used for the horse test there, showed Ivers how to simply make oxygen saturated water, found out that medical grade oxygen required a doctors prescription to obtain, (I'd been using welding grade and still do- as did the folks doing the horse test two or three years prior- none of the horses died and I haven't died. The oxygen all comes from the same place except that medical grade has 5% water added, aviation grade, that you breathe while flying at 50,000 feet has every drop of moisture removed so valves don't stick, and the bulk goes to welding grade. The medical grade folks claim to be more careful in keeping their bottles clean, but what dirt can get into a closed system at 2500 psi?), examined the diffuser used, typical German workmanship, probably being readied to market as a shower head for upscale homes so those folks could shower with highly oxygenated water, or fill their swimming pools with it, etc. and left after Ivers welched on his committment to let me take back the Oxyguard meter he had. So I built my own for a cost of $125 so I could start comparing various bottled waters to see just how much or how little oxygen they had in them- my way of either confirming or denying that the reason for all that bottled water out there is that at least a sizable portion of it has oxygen added and this is what makes it not a fad that will soon pass, because people do notice the difference and come back for more. to me that is better evidence than all the nay-sayers in the world.
7. Over the past year perhaps a hundred or more people I know have been drinking the water I make or have shown them how to make themselves. I also had occassion to use it on two horses and both improved in their preformance. The Edmonton Sun article of just a few weeks ago is the latest demonstration that oxygenated water is being used successfully with horses and no downside to drinking it has been reported anywhere or I'm sure the nay-sayers would have reported it here over the past six weeks. That article also provides information on how you can have your water oxygenated for a cost of $7,500. With the system explaned in the post to Grizz, you can make it a batch at a time (instead of fill your pond with it) at a cost of maybe $400 (or less if you have a corny keg, can make the hoses and fittings, have an oxygen regulator, have an oxygen bottle and have a water distiller.)
One final word about economics. A month or so I read a report stating that the median net worth of an american family was $11,000, excluding the value of a home which could go to zero in a hurry. That was for the year 2000. since then the dollar has declined dramatically against the other currencies of the world and so I assume the net worth figure is now close to zero. That means that "the poor" now includes half the families of america. And when people get their backs to the wall and can't afford food, let alone medications and doctors appointments, things get real ugly in a hurry. And ugliness takes it's toll on the oxygen level in your brain. Having the ability to make your own oxygenated water will help that problem, just as it helped Dr. Pakdaman's patients 30 or more years ago.
As for me, when I read the article I concluded that it only cost me $11,000 to not even try to keep up with the Jones's all these years and figured I'd made a rather good investment of my time. So also, posting here for the past six weeks or so has made the winter go by rather nicely. Won't be long at all until the maple trees are ready to be tapped.
This is what I mean by "quack chemistry". Not all bleach is sodium hypochlorite, but even a cursory examination of the formula would be a big giveaway to most people:
sodium hypochlorite: NaOCl
table salt: NaCl
While chlorine is a bleaching agent, as anyone with a pool-faded swimsuit can attest, the oxygenated chloride ion (OCl-) is far more effective at bleaching than chlorine alone. In fact, chlorine is not even necessary, as the percarbonate bleaches (OxiClean, etc.) work without any at all.
As far as welding-grade oxygen contaminants go, welding-grade is generally required to be only 99.5% pure, instead of the 99.9% and up of the higher grades. Where the remainder of the contaminants can come in is in backflush into the cylinders from other contaminant gases in the system as the cylinder pressure drops, typically carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, acetylene, etc. If the welding supply company does not routinely exhaust the cylinders they refill, there is a real possibility that the next cylinder you get can be highly contaminated. In welding, that doesn't mean a whole lot, although fuel efficiency will suffer in a contaminated-oxygen environment.
If you're trying to put it into your body, though, you're rolling the dice.
quote:About all I know about the subject to date is that the yellow in urine is caused by the chromium ion (but forget now if it is chrome +3 or chrome +6). Anyway, one of the states is yellow the other is not and so I rather expect that drinking highly oxygenated water moves the pH from the acid side to the basic side of the pH scale.
Chromium is not the reason urine is yellow. The color comes from a by-product of hemoglobin breakdown called bilirubin and is the same waste product responsible for the yellow appearance of jaundice sufferers. It contains no chromium of any valence.
So where did this chromium crap come from? Slipshod research, most likely. Urinary bilirubin, or urobilin, used to be called "urochrome", with "-chrome" referring to its properties to tint the urine--it comes from the Greek word for "color". (see chromatic, chromosome, etc.) Urinary chromium levels are completely independent of urinary bilirubin levels. But, if someone reads "urochrome" without understanding what it's talking about, claiming it to be a chromium compound sure sounds scientific, doesn't it?
Dave, ever heard of www.google.com? Wonderful fact-checking tool... :P
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Lindee, err Linda,
;)-->
Interesting you didn't seem to catch David's (note the correction
:D-->) deriding tone and out-of-hand dismissal of those who challenge him on his theories. (And what's with David's comparison of his oxygen saturated water theory to the gospel of Christ as far as the 'naysayers' go? Like one automatically goes with the other?)
Guess what? That kind of challenge that we used to refer to as 'unbelief' in TWI, is called 'healthy skepticism', and is necessary in a free society. And its especially important in the scientific community. So David should be well aware that scientists and like people are going to be 'naysayers' (so to speak) in that regard. (Ie., show me proof) It's part of the 'job description'.
And it's the means that has served the scientific community and the general community very well, thank you very much.
Ie.., in the scientific process and practice, one does NOT 'live by faith'.
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Goey
Gee Linda,
David has no studies whatsoever to back his claims. He derides, belittles and ridicules those who challenge him. He equates (with analogy) his message with the Gospel and himself as Jesus, eg - they didn't beleive Jesus either...
Yet you come to his defense and turn on the "naysayers" and call them/us errantly dismissive.
I question your objectivity here.
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krys
I appreciate your warm words, Linda. These wings ain't goin' nowhere soon!
It's not likely that there will be any published studies proving the benefit of oxygenated water. It's new...and those who have disproved it, in my opinion, have no validity because of the kinds of subjects they used.
My breathing has been seriously compromised by the smoking I did + the many years of working with formaldehyde dissecting cats etc, + the other chemicals I used before everything in chemistry was done under a hood + being stuck in a pine forest fire when I lived in New Mexico.
I had 2 rounds of pulmonary rehabilitation. The first time I was very strictly held to a limited quantity of supplemental oxygen while I exercised. After 12 weeks of this I had regained so much strength that I could hardly believe it. (I had become week due to poor breathing and excessive fatigue...it seems with muscles...use them or lose them)
The second time I went to rehab was to restore what I lost after about 10 weeks of bed rest following the auto accident. This lab was run differently. They opened the supplemental oxygen as far as it would go and pushed me to the physical limit...every single day. After 12 weeks of this, I was in much much better physical shape than before the accident.
When I exercise now...I use as much as I need to keep my stats where they belong. That is how I know that primed athletes won't do any better with supplemental oxygen from any source especially on a one shot trial.
I wonder what would happen if you put prime athletes on unlimited supplemtal oxygen?
I had not intended on revealing as much as I have because I consider it kind of personal, but now that it's out of the bag, so to speak...you may understand my interest in this.
Water and alcohol are both absorbed directly from the stomach...they do not need to go through the gut to be absorbed into the blood stream. I have a pulse-oximeter (one of the finger pinch kind) which I use religiously when exercising to monitor my stats. I know that I can perform better on my treadmill after a bottle of Penta than if I didn't drink it.
I chugged 2 in a row to see if the oximeter showed increased oxygen and it didn't. That means that no additional oxygen hopped on hemoglobin....but that does not mean it wasn't in the plasma. If it's in the plasma, it's fair game for cells to use. (They can't use it on the hemoglobin anyway).
Yes, I am in tune with my body - I have to be.
I wrote what I wrote of my personal experience because I felt some obligation to say something other than "I don't think it's placebo effect". There is something there...I just don't know for sure what it is.
Also - I don't need any posting credentials. I know that. I wrote what I wrote out of deferance (sp) to David to does appear to know lots more than me...and perhaps more than other braniacs (used in fun, not to put down).
I think we'd all lose some potential wealth if he left these forums.
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Raf
Krys,
I left you a PT.
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ex70sHouston
I'm about to get flamed for this.
I bet good old VPW and Craig M love this thread and all the love that is coming from it.
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Raf
Not at all.
Krys, Dave:
I apologize if I insulted your intelligence. I seriously, seriously question the product, not you.
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Zixar
Krys: I never said that the oxygen wasn't there. At any rate, even if your perceived improvement is completely due to the placebo effect it doesn't mean it isn't helping you. Mind over matter, and all that. Please don't feel like I'm attacking you or discounting your experience, because I'm not. You know I have the greatest of respect for you and would not contradict you out of malice or spite in any circumstance.
There are a couple of points I'd like to make, though.
1) The athletes in the study who showed no improvement? Okay, what about a thoroughbred race horse specifically bred for peak physical performance? David claims that extra oxygen works miracles for these animals, so it stands to reason that human athletes should get a proportionate boost to performance, same as his horses. They didn't.
2) If dissolved oxygen in water is such a wondrously beneficial delivery system, then the reverse, dissolving carbon dioxide in water, should suffocate the body, no? You don't see people dropping like flies from drinking Coke and Pepsi. (Beer, maybe, but they're keeling over from a different chemical, obviously.
:)--> )
3) If water is such an efficient transport mechanism for metabolic oxygen, why do fish need gills to extract it?
I'm glad the stuff is helping you, but whatever's going on, I highly doubt that it's for any of the reasons David has gone on about. It's the same kind of anecdotal "science" that keeps the UFO people happy with their governmental-suppression conspiracy theories and wishful thinking passed off as expert testimony in reams of scientific-sounding doublespeak.
You know science. You know good and well that this could be properly tested and verified or falsified in short order. The negative studies can't just be pooh-poohed away. If the experiment were repeatable and valid, the oxy-water folks wouldn't have to do such a snake-oil sales job in order to get people to buy into it, because the results would be plastered over every paper in the free world and Big Business would be pumping O2 into everything they could get their mitts on and charging you twice the price to eat and drink your daily air.
It just doesn't pass the reality check. That's no reflection on you, just on the product.
Most sincerely,
Zix
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Zixar
Oh, and remember--just because it's an "alternative" product doesn't mean Big Business won't be interested because they can't patent it or whatever. You know how regular bottled water is all the rage nowadays, when 30 years ago it was almost unheard of? Now every soft drink manufacturer sells bottled water, usually for the same price as their soda pop--and a lot of it comes right out of the tap at the factory. It's true--read the labels on bottled water at the grocery. Many will come right out and admit the source is something like "San Antonio Municipal Water"--pure tap water.
And people buy it by the case...
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krys
There a lot of questions that need answering.
The race horses in question were given only oxygenated water to drink. Human athletes were given a measured quantity one time. What would happen if the athletes were given oxygenated water only (as opposed to any other beverage) for a month and then tested? I don't know but mine is a better question than yours for this kind of test (I think)
Carbon dioxide will not suffocate you...lack of oxygen will. It's not the lack of oxygen that causes you to breathe, but the quantity of carbon dioxide that does. Some people with very serious lung desease cannot pass carbon dioxide out well enough...they are called "retainers". They never suffocate but it is thought that at night when they are sleeping they may "forget" to breathe. These folks have a special apparatus for providing positive pressure at all times to make sure they don't stop breathing.
Water is not an ideal means of delivering oxygen under normal conditions. Fish have gills to extract what little there is in there. Maybe there's 4 - 10% of oxygen dissolved in the water (depending on temperature) but there's 21% dissolved in air.
I don't have all the answers. I'm looking for some IF they exist. It does help me, but I'm not "normal" (take that any way you like to....tee hee)so I'm out of the pail so to speak.
Yes, I do know good and well that this should be properly tested. I don't have the funds to do so, though. I do believe that 500 ml (about 16 oz) given to 6 athletes 1 time does not constitute a valid test!
I'm not taking any of these scientific reflexions personally. These are all questions to ask (plus a number of others I can think of).
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excathedra
in my pea brain since there is a god it seems like there should be stuff around us to help us live
that's always my hope and prayer especially for my mom and her husband (right now)
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krys
There is nothing wrong with your brain, excathie! Yours is trained differently from mine and most of the other scientific types. Don't ask me to do calculus or learn a language, though.
There are plenty of things for our health and healing. Most of the time we would stay out of hot water if we followed better health rules and lifestyles. We always say, it will happen to the other guy - until one day you wake up and realize you ARE the other guy.
I also wish your mother and her husband well.
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David Anderson
RAF, the above quote comes from Dr. Park's weekly online newsletter, "What's New", July 23, 1999. Notice that he has referenced a bottled water company that, he claims, publishes that their water has twice as much oxygen as tap water and that this amount is 1500 ppm.
At first I thought it was just a typo in his newsletter because 15.00 ppm is close to double the amount of oxygen in tap water. But then one wonders why any company would advertize both the words "double that of tap water" and "15.00 ppm" (or 1500 ppm for that matter) in the same ad, as if four significant figures had any relivance whatsoever.
But then he says that bottling 1500 ppm water is certainly doable if bottled under pressure. I assure you that bottling water with oxygen in it at 1500 ppm would take a bottle that would hold 20 atmospheres of pressure or close to 300 psig. There is no bottle that I know of in the beverage industry that will safely withstand such pressure- and I rather think Dr. Park knows that!
Fact is, that if he meant 15 ppm instead of 1500 ppm, there would be no pressure needed to bottle it if a.) the water was bottled to the very top of the bottle, like Penta Water does, or b.) the gas over the water was oxygen rather than air.
And even in an air atmosphere it would only generate pressure if the temperature was raised, which is why one generally hears a psst with Coke and Pepsi's entries into the bottled water business (Disanti and Aquafina), when the bottle is opened luke warm rather than being taken out of the refrigerator.
Anyway, Dr. Park admits in his next newsletter that that his calculations were seriously off- but nowhere corrects the 1500 ppm number, and his relying on it to do his calculation as to how much water the hockey players would have to drink to boost their blood oxygen level by 1%, proves that he used it. So in either case, whether a misprint or deliberate, Dr. Park's follow-up "correction" is deliberately misleading.
Anyway, I took the liberty to email him so we'll see if he replies. Below is that email.
For those who don't know what PE means at the end of my name I should explain lest anyone try to sue me for using it. It means "Registered Professional Engineer", and is obtained by passing 16 hours of exams after obtaining a bachlors degree in an engineering field, working as an EIT- "Engineer in Training" for four years, (eight years if one has no engineering degree but can still pass the tests) and then writing a paper on a design project (to show one was not idle during the EIT period.)
But that was in 1970 when I fulfilled the requirements and was "Registered" (ie., my name entered in an official register and the number given me shows the line in the register where anyone can find the entry- if the register still exists!)
I only learned lately that in 1980 the Administrative Codes were changed so that FEDGOV could collect yet another tax by requiring PE's to pay a yearly fee to keep their "License". Seems that in spite of the obvious work required to obtain the designation PE, that now it is considered a privilege bestowed by FEDGOV rather than a right obtained by demonstrated preformance. And since FEDGOV claims to have bestowed the "privilege" it obviously can tax the privilege. I've never paid that tax and have no intention of ever doing so. And so I didn't affix PE after my name in hopes of engaging in commerce with Dr. Park but only to show that I was registered even if not currently licensed. Seems that "Registered" and "licenced" are as confused by the powers that be today as 1500 ppm oxygen in water and 15.00 ppm oxygen in wateris confused by Dr. Park.
But if anyone cares to read Dr. Park's current newsletter, they'll see that he comes from the typical Bible Bashing, evolution promoting, crew that many in the Church of Reason come from. (ie. he takes the recent Tsunami disaster as an occassion to belittle the Book of Job.)
So, RAF, I'm not optimistic about receiving a reply from him but allow that it could happen.
What the recent batch of naysayers seem to have in common is that they, like Dr. Park, assume that the oxygen in water has to get into the blood stream to do any good. I've tried to show that this is not the case. But my limited view of the lymph system seems only to have reached a resonant chord in Krysilis so far.
My view comes from physiology text books used in medical schools and not "peer reviewed" medical "research". If someone can demonstarate that water, and any oxygen dissolved in it, does not go directly into the lymph system from the small intestine, then the texts books I read are wrong and I am wrong. But I don't think they are wrong and so I don't think I am wrong. So, until someone can show that the normal ratio of 2/3 water going into the lymph system and 1/3 going into the circulatory system is wrong, all the burpers, naysayers, or 8th grade general math students (those who hate math!) who just want to be heard in the classroom even though they've done no homework and have nothing to add to the class but are merely trying to figure out whether they are adults or children as hormonal growth factors run rampant, will change that. 7th, 8th and 9th graders have a lot on their plate without having to be subjected to sitting for an hour a day in a "math for dummies" class. In fact, a friend who has taught all her live figures they should all just stay home and not go to school at all during that time. We probably do them all a disservice by making them do so.
But here we have the same mentality show up to "strut their stuff" and they could be having a good time elsewhere! What a pitty, expecially if I'm right that they really aren't junior high students.
But hey Paw, looks like it's good for business at this fine establishment (if the kids don't break all the tables and chairs.)
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Zixar
Exactly what do flagrant self-aggrandizement, along with fallacious appeals to irrelevant authority, cum hoc ergo propter hoc arguments, and ad hominem attacks have to do with quack chemistry?
Let me guess, you could tell me, but then the Evil FEDGOV™ would have you eliminated because you failed to pay their cruel and oppressive credential maintenance tax?
I've already seen this movie, though. It was called The Abyss, in which Michael Biehn goes crazy due to high-pressure oxygen toxicity and tries to blow up aliens with a nuclear warhead. Perhaps too much oxygen makes you hallucinate that somehow a lapsed mechanical engineering credential makes you more competent to speak about biochemistry. Not quite as exciting as blowing up aliens with nukes, but reality rarely lives up to the fantasy anyway.
And, let's see...it isn't oxygen in the bloodstream, it's oxygen in lymph, right? Oh, okay. Except for the fact that the lymphatic system drains directly into the bloodstream via the subclavian veins. Oops. Think I learned that in 9th grade biology. Pity all of us didn't, apparently.
As for the rest, it's little more than a new variation on the Chewbacca Defense.
-->
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Raf
I would echo what Zix said, if I could understand it.
:)-->
Dave, if you looked at superoxygenated water with half of the critical eye and skepticism you applied to the book of James, you would recognize it for the pure bunk that it is.
I don't know what you're talking about in terms of "naysayers" and the "Church of Reason." It seems to me the only people who are actually documenting the value of the product you're promoting are the people selling it. Anyone who looks at this product with an objective eye is walking away with the exact same opinion: it's bunk.
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GarthP2000
Too bad Penn and Teller didn't do a show on this.
Or did they?
;)-->
Would be interesting to see what their take is on this superoxygenated water routine would be.
...
Oh that's right. They didn't take the class. I fergot.
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David Anderson
Thanks Krys for the input- and for all your input on this thread. I was under the impression that horses could store hemoglobin in the spleen but people couldn't- but that piece of information came from the "owner" of of the Horsescience group, Tom Ivers.
According to him, when the heart rate of a horse goes above 160 bpm, their spleen dumps up to 50% more hemoglobin into the blood stream but that people's spleens don't have the capacity to do that. Perhaps it's a matter of degree rather than either/or.
In any event, it helps explain what was going on with my cousin Russ after five years or more fighting lymphatic leukemia. It seems that his spleen lost the ability to release hemoglobin and so when they finally had to take it out, after many blood transfusions over a period of months, the surgeon said it was the largest spleen he'd ever seen. Until your post, I thought the human spleen was merely a filter of sorts that screened out the dead cells and sent them to the trash bin and passed on the live ones and his screen broke so that the live hemoglobin went to the trash as well.
The ninety day average life cycle of a Red Blood Cell is a great piece of information to know because it points out that the circulatory system is not some static machine that one is born with and dies with, but rather a living, breathing unique set of cells that live, work, get sick and die (at least the Red Blood Cells do) all in a 90 day period of time. If it turned out that they were more healthy for that time, or perhaps lived another day or week by being surrounded by a hogher oxygen pressure in the lymph, that would be a wonderful thing.
By the way, PubMed.com is a rich resource for studies done on oxygenated water as well as the rest of medical research. Many of the studies published there only have abstracts available for free and one must pay for the full paper- ah, even they are after our money! It is the main online archive for the National Institute of Health.
There is another like it but I forget the name of it right now. Just punch in "oxygenated water" to their search engine and you'll see that the study of the subject is not as new as many here think it is. I think you'll even find Dr. Pakdaman's work back in the late 60's or early 1970's there- at least in the reference section of more recent papers. His was a published medical study done by a cancer surgeon on his patients using "Pakdaman's Water". The problem is it was published in German and I only had access to part of it, translated by the friend of a standardbred trainer I met from Finland, who's friend lives in Germany. His study, like many others I'm sure, would have been terminated as soon as he was convinced that everyone would benifit from it. Surely he would not have continued beyond that point because it would have been entirely unethical to withhold the oxygenated water from the cancer patents in the control group.
Oh, and I owe you all an apology because I thought that all the posts to this thread came to my email box. I've read all that did come there but in going over the last two pages of this thread it seems that there are some that are posted that never made it to my inbox. I don't have the foggiest notion as to why that happened.
And thanks Linda for trying to instill a little order to this thread. I don't think you had a thing to apologize for.
A few comments for the detractors. First, I think the one about 3% carbon monoxide in welding grade oxygen is total horse dang.
A major oxygen producer is on the Ohio River about 100 miles from here, and right next to Mountaineer Race Track. At the time I wanted to put a wading pool in the long walk back to the stables so that horses after a race could not only wash off and cool off while walking back after a race but could enjoy the benifits of oxygenated water to their skin while doing so. Normally the cost to do so would be prohibitive, except that this huge plant is right next door to them. Still working on that one.
Anyway, the plant manager said that five truck loads of liquid oxygen went up to Detroit every week for their municipal and waste water treatment facility. That's 100 tons or thereabouts of LIQUID oxygen. The "only burp" folks can probably figure out how many burps that would be. Fact is that medical grade, welding grade, and aviation grade oxygen all come from the same process. So if the poster is right that there can be 3% carbon monoxide in welding grade oxygen, then it's also in medical grade and aviation grade.
And the matter suggesting that I was comparing myself to Jesus Christ by quoting him as saying "though one raise from the dead still some won't believe" takes only the tinest bit of logic to figure out, ie. raise someone from the dead with oxygenated water and some still wouldn't believe it worked. My comment was about recalcitrant unbelief, like that displayed by some here the past few days, and had nothing whatsoever to do with me playing god.
And a word about bleach. Bleach is sodium hypoclhorite and it's the chlorine that does the bleaching. What species of oxygen that may help I don't know, perhaps the resident chemist can amplify. I've learned precious little from him so far. From the comments about bleach one would think that everything in the world should be white from all that oxygen in the atmosphere.
As for Oxyclean, the bottle I have of the liquid variety says it's a "secret blend of detergents" and the solid variety says that it should be mixed thoroughly with water so I assume it just avoids having to ship all that water around the country and therefore costs less. It does say that it contains no chlorine and that it breaks down into "naturally occurring elements", but doesn't say which naturally occurring elements. Ozone comes to mind, as does hydrogen peroxide, as does phosphates. I'm not suggesting anyone drink bleach or oxyclean.
So how we could get to bleach from a discussion on oxygenated water, is truly bizzare. But since the subject of bleach has come up, a story comes to mind from the horse trainer I worked for back in '97. Seems there was a trainer that was getting tapped out on his feed bill and so a friend told him he'd heard that bleach will either make his horse run great or kill him. So the jerk stuffed a gallon of bleach down his throat and, of course, the horse died. Hey, it solved his feed problem! Jerk!
And about "The Church of Reason". A best seller back in the early 70's, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence", by Robert Persig, goes into it in great detail- after warning us at the start that the book wasn't very fair to Zen and wasn't very accurate about motorcycles either. I used to give a copy of it to all my chemistry and physics students.
Anyway it's still in the philosophy section of most book stores and no doubt can be found on eBay or whereever in paperback form.
Persig makes the case that the scientific community functions just like the organized church. It has it's hierarchy that functions on the level of greed, lies, income, control and pecking order, and it's "true believers" that function entirely independently of the hierarchy- until push comes to shove and the true believers get kicked out or give up and leave.
So it is with any field. One has to watch out for the hierarcy while not dismissing the true believers. I daresay that applies to the field of medicine in spades, especially when it comes to "medical research" and things like "p numbers". Generally such research is funded by a drug company or their serogates so their product can get approved by USDA and they can make lots of money. The trick there is to show that the possible benifits of the drug outweigh the possible damage. The true believers doing such work are few and far between because they don't get funded unless they toe the line with the hierarchy.
So far on this thread I trust that most of the "true believers" reading have remained silent while those that figure I'm out to set up yet another pecking order in the Church of Reason are the rudest and most adament to prove that I'm a jerk.
For example, the tirade about my explaining what PE meant was brought on by my decision to post the email sent to Dr. Park. I could have just deleted the PE in the copy posted on this thread but then it wouldn't have been what I sent to Dr. Park and someone, sooner or later, would say I was deceptive in not posting the exact email to him. Heads I lose, tails I lose. So I just read the tirade and said to myself, "jerk!" I'm sure he doesn't care in the slightest that I think he's a jerk and I don't care in the slightest that he thinks I'm a jerk.
But the fact is that Dr. Park's name came up as an authority in physics to debunk oxygenated water and the hours it took me to find out about him showed him to be more interested in propaganda than in teaching anyone any physics.
Anyway, maybe next time I'll just summarize what I think are the salient points of this thread and move on down the line. What I'll remember is that Krys was actually helped by drinking oxygenated water. I knew Kit Sober was helped before I even got here. Hopefully others are at least thinking about the possibility that it might help them. As for the rest, have a nice life.
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Sudo
Garth,
Re:"Would be interesting to see what their take is on this superoxygenated water routine would be."
Oh, I think everyone knows what their take would be. Superoxygenated water. It's snake oil pure and simple. Lots of folks are taken in by snakeoil claims
(see list here) but that doesn't validate it anymore than folks who say Muhammed cured them of cancer. Lots of suckers for pseudoscience out there.
NOW!! when they start banning superoxynated water from being consumed by olympic athletes (or even college athlestes for that matter) then we can start taking a serious look. But of course... those who aren't suckers for charlatans know... this stuff is BS!!!
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GarthP2000
David,
and so forth.Look at the words you use here. You seem to confuse the scientific process and that which is based on faith. It even shows itself with your statement about
Now its true that there are scientists and the like who are/act very religious (read prideful and arrogant) as regards their theories, and I'll bet even money on far more of their theories wind up having large holes in them than not. (Such is usually the manner of arrogant people. They are arrogant in order to cover up for the flaws in their theories and the insecurities in their lives). But the overall field/process of science differs from that significantly. Hell, it even corrects itself, much to the chagrin and loss of those aforementioned arrogant stuck-ups.
So look at how you deal with us 'unbelievers'; 'detractors' and 'naysayers' you call us. And for nothing more than a practice which is required in any field of science. *Skepticism*! For such is the way of proving things. Of disproving things. Of separating the 'wheat and the chaff' (to use a biblical term) Thats the way the big boys play in the field of science (and dare I say, in engineering as well, my friend
;)-->) and if you want to play with them, you gotta learn to take the skeptics with the ((cough)) ((GAG)) 'believers'. 
-->
Huffing off with all your marbles with a 'have a nice life', ain't gonna cut it. (You do sound a bit miffed there, dude) Neither does you're bandying about of your engineering degree and other accomplishments. That's called 'the fallacy of appeal to authority', which in itself doesn't prove squat.
Here's a phrase that you might find enlightening as regards this kind of process:
"In religion, to question is HERESY (hierarcy?
;)-->)
In science, to question is REQUIRED."
Think about that one for a bit. It sure works for me!
Sudo,
Well, it seems that David's approach of separating the sheep and the goats, religion-style, sure isn't gonna find out for us for sure now, will it?
Besides, I think I'll trust Penn and Teller's approach a tad more. As well as Scopes. They put more emphasis on this kind of skepticism I'm talking about.
Just let me know what the final tally really proves to be.
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markomalley
47 posts, all on one thread, all selling one thing. Seems like a lot of work for a 'drive-by' doesn't it? Most people would just give a sales pitch for their product, leave a URL, and move on.
But whatever floats his boat.
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David Anderson
Oops, pushed the wrong button
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David Anderson
to continue:
Numerous other bottled water that has come up on this thread (that mentioned in a Sports Illustrated article regarding Stanley Cup Hockey players, the Park flame and the "study" at U of Wisconsin that should never have been done) also contained double the amount of oxygen found in tap water. Other flames have mentioned bottled water that is no more than tap water and so buyer beware applies to those buing bottled water.
Penta Water does have 40-50 ppm oxygen added and I've explained how you can make it yourself at the maximum level under atmospheric conditions of about 75 ppm.
3. Fish hatcheries have routinely used 20 ppm water to transport fish- which is the reason most dissolved oxygen meters only go up that high. Due to the increased interest in oxygenated water, one European firm, OxyGuard, now makes one that goes up to 50 ppm and their web site says it is a popular item world wide. (costs about $700).
4. Long about the time that Park was publishing his flame (1999) a German firm sent a representative to test their defuser and the oxygenated water made with it, on horses in Portland, OR. Those tests were not published except that the owner of the Horsescience list, not subject to the companies nondisclosure requirement, and a consultant for the horse farm that had the high speed tread mill, published them on his web site. Those tests showed that horses having access to oxygenated water around the 40 ppm level for four hours prior to test, ran at the same rate of speed with with a 15-20 % decrease in heart rate and both veneous and arterial plasma oxygen levels were 18% higher. This was a cross-over test- and is how I first learned about the subject of oxygenated water, as the owner of the list wanted me to come up with a simple way to make the water so he could sell it to horse people.
5. In June, 2003, my cousin Russ fainted while going to get a drink of water while waiting to be called at the Cleveland Clinic and this event caused me to get serious about oxygenated water. Both he and I experienced noticable and positive benifits from drinking the home-made, distilled, oxygen saturated water. My biggest concern at the time was the possible negative consequences of drinking such water but in the months that followed those concerns were dispelled, first by Dr. Phillip James, then by Dr. Paul Spears, then by numeropus other doctors, vets, and the like, and finally by all the evidence of perhaps millions of people drinking oxygenated bottled water, whether the oxygenation level is published on the label or not.
6. In November 2003 I flew out to Portland to see the treadmill and set-up used for the horse test there, showed Ivers how to simply make oxygen saturated water, found out that medical grade oxygen required a doctors prescription to obtain, (I'd been using welding grade and still do- as did the folks doing the horse test two or three years prior- none of the horses died and I haven't died. The oxygen all comes from the same place except that medical grade has 5% water added, aviation grade, that you breathe while flying at 50,000 feet has every drop of moisture removed so valves don't stick, and the bulk goes to welding grade. The medical grade folks claim to be more careful in keeping their bottles clean, but what dirt can get into a closed system at 2500 psi?), examined the diffuser used, typical German workmanship, probably being readied to market as a shower head for upscale homes so those folks could shower with highly oxygenated water, or fill their swimming pools with it, etc. and left after Ivers welched on his committment to let me take back the Oxyguard meter he had. So I built my own for a cost of $125 so I could start comparing various bottled waters to see just how much or how little oxygen they had in them- my way of either confirming or denying that the reason for all that bottled water out there is that at least a sizable portion of it has oxygen added and this is what makes it not a fad that will soon pass, because people do notice the difference and come back for more. to me that is better evidence than all the nay-sayers in the world.
7. Over the past year perhaps a hundred or more people I know have been drinking the water I make or have shown them how to make themselves. I also had occassion to use it on two horses and both improved in their preformance. The Edmonton Sun article of just a few weeks ago is the latest demonstration that oxygenated water is being used successfully with horses and no downside to drinking it has been reported anywhere or I'm sure the nay-sayers would have reported it here over the past six weeks. That article also provides information on how you can have your water oxygenated for a cost of $7,500. With the system explaned in the post to Grizz, you can make it a batch at a time (instead of fill your pond with it) at a cost of maybe $400 (or less if you have a corny keg, can make the hoses and fittings, have an oxygen regulator, have an oxygen bottle and have a water distiller.)
One final word about economics. A month or so I read a report stating that the median net worth of an american family was $11,000, excluding the value of a home which could go to zero in a hurry. That was for the year 2000. since then the dollar has declined dramatically against the other currencies of the world and so I assume the net worth figure is now close to zero. That means that "the poor" now includes half the families of america. And when people get their backs to the wall and can't afford food, let alone medications and doctors appointments, things get real ugly in a hurry. And ugliness takes it's toll on the oxygen level in your brain. Having the ability to make your own oxygenated water will help that problem, just as it helped Dr. Pakdaman's patients 30 or more years ago.
As for me, when I read the article I concluded that it only cost me $11,000 to not even try to keep up with the Jones's all these years and figured I'd made a rather good investment of my time. So also, posting here for the past six weeks or so has made the winter go by rather nicely. Won't be long at all until the maple trees are ready to be tapped.
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Zixar
This is what I mean by "quack chemistry". Not all bleach is sodium hypochlorite, but even a cursory examination of the formula would be a big giveaway to most people:
sodium hypochlorite: NaOCl
table salt: NaCl
While chlorine is a bleaching agent, as anyone with a pool-faded swimsuit can attest, the oxygenated chloride ion (OCl- ) is far more effective at bleaching than chlorine alone. In fact, chlorine is not even necessary, as the percarbonate bleaches (OxiClean, etc.) work without any at all.
Here's a business-level explanation of what the word "bleaching" really means. http://www.bccresearch.com/editors/RC-196R.html
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Zixar
As far as welding-grade oxygen contaminants go, welding-grade is generally required to be only 99.5% pure, instead of the 99.9% and up of the higher grades. Where the remainder of the contaminants can come in is in backflush into the cylinders from other contaminant gases in the system as the cylinder pressure drops, typically carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, acetylene, etc. If the welding supply company does not routinely exhaust the cylinders they refill, there is a real possibility that the next cylinder you get can be highly contaminated. In welding, that doesn't mean a whole lot, although fuel efficiency will suffer in a contaminated-oxygen environment.
If you're trying to put it into your body, though, you're rolling the dice.
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Zixar
More chemical puffery:
Chromium is not the reason urine is yellow. The color comes from a by-product of hemoglobin breakdown called bilirubin and is the same waste product responsible for the yellow appearance of jaundice sufferers. It contains no chromium of any valence.
So where did this chromium crap come from? Slipshod research, most likely. Urinary bilirubin, or urobilin, used to be called "urochrome", with "-chrome" referring to its properties to tint the urine--it comes from the Greek word for "color". (see chromatic, chromosome, etc.) Urinary chromium levels are completely independent of urinary bilirubin levels. But, if someone reads "urochrome" without understanding what it's talking about, claiming it to be a chromium compound sure sounds scientific, doesn't it?
Dave, ever heard of www.google.com? Wonderful fact-checking tool... :P
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