With all due respect to Dave and Galen...I haven't added much to this topic lately although I believe oxygenated water is a beneficial thing.
Galen...when you were in deep water...what was the atmospheric pressure that was maintained within the submarine? I doubt it was nearly as high as the pressure would have been on you had you been outside the sub.
I was interested in the % of the oxygen because I know that if an individual maintains a blood oxygen content of less than 90% over a period of time the body declines with brain function and heart function compromised. It's not the quantity of oxygen outside the body - normal folks can maintain oxygen % above 90 % because if the pressure is a little higher...and the individual has normal lung function to begin with...there would be no problem maintaining a % >90% in a relatively poor oxygen environment. (yes, C02 us the big buggaboo, but I was interested in the oxygen quantity.
David – with all due respect you think too much like an engineer! (sorry – don’t know how else to say it) I believe your ideas about how the body work are simplistic, unless I have grossly misread you.
We say that oxygen is a poison. Perhaps it would be more correct to say that it produces poisons if not properly utilized. Most people think that
The reason or purpose of the above equation is to produce energy for the cell and the body. Energy is the whole reason for it. There are about 30 separate chemical reactions, each depending on the one before it…which cells use. Some of the CO2 is made in the beginning and most of it in the middle somewhere, but the oxygen isn’t used until the last few steps.
What happens is, that if too much sugar goes down this road….such that the cells cannot properly use the oxygen….poisonous products back up the system. So for convenience sake we say too much oxygen poisons the body. It is actually the buildup of these toxins which result in blindness of preemie infants or severe disorientation in very deep diving people.
Preemies aren’t put in hyperbaric chambers. Oxygen is delivered under pressure via a nasal cannula. Sometimes they are kept under an oxygen tent which is slightly pressurized….but not in a chamber.
Living systems are so complex. They break the geometric law stating that the whole cannot be greater than the sum of its parts…..in the case of living systems…it ain’t necessarily so!
“Galen...when you were in deep water...what was the atmospheric pressure that was maintained within the submarine? I doubt it was nearly as high as the pressure would have been on you had you been outside the sub.â€
Like I said, my boats generally kept things between 1 and 1.5 atm. We always had a couple pressure gauges that we re-calibrated on the surface, then while we were under we would always have some reference to be able to surface again. If the pressure inside the boat was a lot different from the outside air then opening hatches would be a problem [they would get stuck]. But the only time we really paid any attention to the actual pressure was when we were thinking about going up to the surface again, and at that time an effect would be made to regain 1 atm. Most of the time, the pressure would drift around depending on what we were doing.
With an O2 generator running and bleeding off some O2 to the crew [the rest of the O2 went into tanks for later use], it would add a little pressure to the boat and maintain O2 at 15-18%. The CO2 scrubbers ran to extract CO2 and we ported it overboard along with the excess H2 from the O2 generators. So you have some stuff running to add pressure, while other stuff is running to lower pressure.
But nobody really cares until it is time to resurface and open the hatches, or if we have a lot of smoke and we want to ventilate to get rid of the smoke [which happened a lot it seems].
The boats I served on [boomers] had no divers onboard. We were just there to maintain the missiles and keep ready to launch them into orbit, so that they could launch multiple warheads back down.
Other boats had divers [fast attacks] and some of them carry mini-subs in a hanger mounted on top so the divers could go ‘traveling about’, and can do so daily if they need. Then we developed those ‘brown-water’ boats [old boomers converted to carry and deploy troops] now they could rapidly deploy troops from underwater [uSS James K. Polk and the USS Kamahamaha]. Then of course we have over stuff like the NR-1 that does other stuff with divers for research.
Like I said, the greatest pressure that I have functioned in was at 400 feet, though it was only for a short period of time. All my boats went to depths of greater than 400 feet, and usually maintained something around 1 to 1.5 atm inside the boat [until we needed to surface or ventilate, when we made an effort to regain exactly 1 atm].
When we are on the surface and ventilating, preparing to go down, we do routinely ‘pressurize the boat’, meaning we continue sucking in air but we stop exhausting, to build up a little pressure just before we shut down the induction mast and dive. It kind of gives us just a little bit more air. Maybe it was a mental thing, but when you have to work to make your own air, getting that extra little bit of air for free was good.
Boats with divers routinely cycle their escape trunks, allowing divers to come and go. Each time they cycle those trunks the pressure inside the boat goes up some. Until the next time they need to surface, when they make an effort to regain exactly 1 atm, to allow them to ventilate.
Other vessels like the sea-labs would maintain an open diving hatch, so they would routinely maintain sea-pressure inside. But I have never served onboard one of those.
Once while we were inport and crewmembers were bringing their families and girlfriends onboard for tours, we were lined up to ‘surface-ventilate’. [Which meant that we sucked in air via an induction mast and we left the hatches open to naturally exhaust] On cold nights the topside watches liked to stand in front of the open hatches, as warm air from inside would blast them and keep them warm. Anyway this time, we had shut the aft hatch [probably as we were sitting a little low in the water and did not like water rushing in through an open hatch]. So we were ‘surface-ventilating’ with only one hatch open, the control room hatch, and the crew was bringing family and girlfriends aboard for tours. It was a common thing for girlfriends to come down to visit the boat wearing a skirt or a ‘sun-dress’, while climbing down the 30 feet ladder into the control room their dresses would be blown up over their heads and they would need assistance finding the rungs of the ladder to continue working their way down into the boat. So it work out as a nice form of entertainment for the crew as well. Now the control room hatch was round and 33 inches in diameter. And one time the COB brought his wife down to the boat, she was kind of portly, and while stepped down the ladder, the usual thing happened. One sight of that and everyone in the control room turned away so as not to look. But she got stuck. She wedged herself into the 33 inch hatch ring and her extra rolls of flab sealed that hatch ring good and tight. When the boat began pressurizing. Many crewmen ran to the control room to see what had happened and render aid. During this the Cob’s wife had let go of the ladder and was swinging her feet, in an effort to work her body down through the hatch. But the pressure kept building, and our ears were popping, so we decided that the quickest path to relief was to push her back out. I was one of the guys that went up the ladder, to attempt to support one leg and push her back up. Fortunately the building pressure was on our side and eventually the pressure lifted her right up out of the hatch ring.
quote: David – with all due respect you think too much like an engineer! (sorry – don’t know how else to say it) I believe your ideas about how the body work are simplistic, unless I have grossly misread you.
Hello Krys. I sure wish everyone thought like an engineer because maybe then I'd be able to talk to them. I'm a firm believer in "See it Big, Keep it Simple" and have all too much experience with those who see it small and then complicate the hell out of what little they see.
For example, engineers use a "black box" to solve lots of problems. In other words, they draw a box around what they are investigating and begin by admitting that they know nothing about what is inside the box. It's irrelivant to the problem at hand. They then look at what goes into the box and what comes out of the box rather than the myriad of things that are possible inside the box. It's simple, but I assure you it is not simplistic. It's usually those who are investigating very small parts inside the box that call the method simplistic.
So I began my investigation by not giving a damn about people, due to the hell I went through over the past 14 years trying to defend the right to liberty of an 81 year old woman. All I got from people was excuses why they couldn't help, wouldn't help, didn't care- or thought the concept was simplistic (ie. 81 years old women aught to die so that others could take their money and their space).
So I took up horses as much more interesting than people and far more thankful when you did them a favor. Simple solution but not simplistic at all. And it has led to some profound, yet simple discoveries- like the value of highly oxygenated water to one's health.
All it takes to understand is maybe a high school chemistry and physics course, although I've tried to make the subject even simpler than that- for we all understand that we need oxygen and water to live as well as food. And food is the least of these, not the greatest- at least we can live far longer without food than we can without oxygen or water.
My guess is that there are a million studies done on food (and drugs as a subset of food) for every one study done on water and/or oxygen. And we now must suffer through advertisements for pills to a greater extent than we used to suffer through ads for coke and Pepsi on the tv. So please excuse me for daring to have contempt for them all, and to think poorly of comments that would dismiss the subject of oxygen and water as "simplistic", worthy only of "private topic" status, or more lethal yet, those who would say "You'll only burp" or "it's as silly as anything I've come across"- as the medical doctor wrote about Millenium Coolers above.
Fact is that someone could discover a pill that contained the fountain of youth in it and still very few would take it- until everyone else did first that is. Then they would merely lie and tell everybody they'd been taking it for years.
So let's talk about a race horse for a minute. There "blood" volume is 72 cc per kilogram of weight. If they are very fit, this can go up to 100 cc per kilogram of weight, as they grow more capillaries as well as more muscle mass. That's a fact that speaks loudly to an engineer like me. It means that by proper exercise one can increase the size of the circulatory system in the horse's body from 7.2% to 10% of his body size, or(2.8/7.2= .389) almost a 40% increase in "horse" (assuming the circulatory system is a measure of how much horse one has at the beginning of the day- ie. how much work he can do).
That fact doesn't say a thing about how much hemoglobin is in the circulatory system, how much oxygen is in the plasma, how healthy the red blood cells are that make up about 18% of the "Blood", or how healthy the hemoglobin molecules are inside the red blood cells. They are all things inside the "black box" called the circulatory system. The whole system increases by 40%.
So an engineer would say that if you put in exercise of the correct amount and at the correct rate, to the black box, out will come increased speed and increased endurance- ie, the amount of work the black box can do will increase. It increase in the circulatory system is an aside- even if a remarkable one!
But let's look a little into the black box called the circulatory system. Let's say it comprises 7.2% of the normal human body as it does the normal horses body. Inside that black box one finds that 82% of it is water, leaving the rest to swim in the water and comprise only 18% of it, or 1.3% of the total body weight (7.2 x .18 = 1.296).
Further, evidently the maximum amount of hemoglobin in a red blood cell is 70% of it's mass. So we're left with hemoglobin comprising only a fraction of one percent of the body's weight (.9% if one excludes the white blood cells, platlets, and other solids in the blood stream and figures it's all red blood cells).
Yet everybody knows all about hemoglobin and nothing at all about water. (actually, the average person also knows nothing about hemoglobin, but thinks he does because he's heard the word used lots of times in place of "blood" and thinks they are synonomous.)
And this is what I pressume you are talking about when you say that the "blood" carrying less than 90% of the oxygen it should is a problem. You're talking about hemoglobin saturation, not total "blood" capacity.
The medical profession would have us believe that the amount of oxygen carried in the plasma is insignificant and only that carried by the hemoglobin in red blood cells is significant. But that is because they are too lazy to calculate out how much water there is in the body, or in the blood stream, let alone want to maximize the oxygen in it! Hell, they'd lose business and their "profit center" if they focused on good health rather than on quick fixes and come-back-in-two-weeks methodology.
So they take an artificial measurement by clipping on a clothes-pin-like divice to a finger, then measuring the relative concentration of light waves going through the finger, see that converted to another artificial number, SaO2, on the read-out, and then tell us that since it is over 90% that oxygen is not our problem. Talk about simplistic!!!
The measurement doesn't tell how many red blood cells are alive and well in the blood stream, it doesn't tell how much hemoglobin is inside each red blood cell, it doesn't tell whether those hemoglobin molecules are alive or dead as a door nail. In short, it is a quick demonstration that they "care", when, in fact, most don't care at all- no more than most lawyers care, most politicians care, most preachers care or most businessmen care about you or me. They care about money, and to most folks money is the measure of all things. A very bad measurement in my view- in fact it will kill you if you're not careful!
And so, the body is 60% water and less than 1% hemoglobin, and every oxygen molecule carried by hemoglobin has to get dumped off into water (the plasma) before it can do any good.
I tried to show in a previous post how drinking oxygen saturated water gets oxygen right next to the cells of the body without having to suffer the pressure loss inherent in the circulatory system. It goes right into the start of the lymph system (called Chyle) at the small intestine- and the lymph system is twice the size of the circulatory system!
Hemoglobin can only deliver it back into the plasma at a pressure of 39 millimeters of Mercury. And it must then get through the capillary wall before it can get into the intersticial fluid (the lymph system). Oxygen saturated water can get it beyond the capillary system and right into the intersticial water, and get it there at close to 760 millimeters of Mercury (assuming the person isn't so low on overall oxygen that it all gets consumed by the teeth, gums, etc. on it's way down to the small intestine.)
So, to use a baseball analogy, hemoglobin lays down lots of bunts and some of them might even get the oxygen to first base. The oxygen in oxygen saturated water is a home run. Most of the ten trillion cells in the body are happy with a lot of bunts, but those that are sick need a home run to make them happy again. A few home runs and they're ready to be happy with bunts again! Without the home runs they're dead in the water!
Then there's the take-out-the-trash guys (the immune system- 90% of which are evidently located right around the small intestines) and they aren't really up to their full strength at running or weightlifting unless the oxygen partial pressure in the lymph is up to 50-80 mm Hg- beyond what hemoglobin itself can deliver. So you can either eat lots of fruits or juices (provided they're not homoginized and therefore devoid of any oxygen) or you can drink highly oxygenated water. The latter is much less taxing on the wallet. And, if one developes the habit of drinking highly oxygenated water as a daily routine, he's likely to not even notice the trash being taken out, let alone lie in bed because of it- when the muscles are too weak to do any good due to the immune system demanding all the oxygen just to take out the huge volume of trash that caught up to all those 90 pound weaklings lazing around and calling themselves trash collectors. All of a sudden they are huffing and puffing and stealing the muscles oxygen just to take out the trash.
Why, with all the pill stuff around that claims to "improve the immune system" one would think the medical profession would pay a little more attention to the lymph system. In the US they evidently don't although in Europe they evidently do.
And, it's Mister Simplistic to you! (just kidding).
Engineers accept a black box as an unknown entity. They only measure what goes in and what comes out. That is a perfectly correct way to work if you're an engineer.
There are people on the planet, however, who love to peer inside these black boxes and figure them out. I am one of those people. I don't understand it all, but I do understand a great deal of it.
You maintain that oxygen is not poisonous. I have showed you that essentially, literally that is correct, however, by peering into the black box, I can understand how the oxygen behaves in such a way as to do cellular damage indirectly and act as a poison.
Keeping thins overly simple causes confusion sometimes in todays more highly enducated society. When you and I went to school, practically nothing was taught regarding the DNA black box, for example, because even the DNA wan't "discovered" much less understoon when I was in high school....but students today can understant what is meant when they are told something is "mutagenic". Keeping things overly simple does no service to modern day John Q. Public.
Yes, medical doctors measure blood oxygen with that clothspin thinggie (pulse oximiter). It measures the oxygen in the hemaglobin, but also the carbon monoxide too....so it is a false reading in smokers (by as much as 5 - 7 %) but is the only reliable way to get such a measurement since getting a true fix on the total oxygen requires a painful needle stab in a wrist artery and time to process the results. When and if technology gives them a better tool, I'm sure they'll use it.
Yes, it's true there have been a few wise-a$$ comments made on this thread...but there are also a lot more hits than I would expect given the number of posters....this leads me to believe that some are reading for information whether they act on it or not...they want to know what we're discussing. I think we should give them as full a picture as possible...and leaving out any of the black box mysteries sells them short.
You and I are on the same page, David, just in different paragraphs!
You and I are on the same page, David, just in different paragraphs!
Hello Krys. I'd like to believe that, but which page are we on anyway. The other day I printed out the entire thread so I could try to see what I'd forgotten to answer or stated wrongly. To my amazement my printer gobbled up 70 pages to do the job while this thread says it's only five pages long!
You are right, there was a lot of stuff going on when we were in high school. Warburg got the Nobel Prize for showing the central role of oxygen (or more precisely the lack of it) in cancer formation and I think only a few years later the structure of DNA was worked out as well as the structure of the myoglobin molecule. During that time they were using hyperbarics on premature babies and although I don't know to what pressures or in what kind of chambers that were put, the bad rap on hyperbarics causing retenal failure set back the field of hyperbarics maybe thirty years- until someone showed it wasn't the pressure causing the problem but the rate of change of the pressure, and that reintroducing the pressure and then more slowly causing it to drop showed the damage was reversable. (and every engineer loves reversable things!) I think the same thing applies to damage to the nervous system- it's reversable if the pressure is taken off slower.
But just because lots of work has been done since the 50's doesn't mean that folks are one wit smarter than they were then. We may have discovered new and novel devices but the over-all education level has actually decreased, not increased- at least in Cleveland, Ohio it has!
By the way, I also disagree with the concept that great inventions are started by technicians and then given form by scientists, or a comment something like that.
It reminded me of a conversation I had with the chairman of the chemistry department at Wright State years ago. He was a polymer chemist and admitted that most significant discoveries were because someone threw the wrong ingredients into a vat and totally ruined the batch. But while looking at the mess they'd made they noticed some interesting properties of the mess. And so polymers were discovered. But the professor then added that after lots of new and novel devices were made using polymers, finally a university research department would get funded so they could find out HOW polymers worked- and thereby expand the usefulness (and profitableness) of them.
Teflon was like that. A recent graduate in chemical engineering, working for DuPont back in the 30's, hooked up a new bottle of some liquid under pressure that he needed for the tests he was doing. But nothing came out of the bottle. Normally one would just get another bottle to replace it. But it bothered him and so he cut the bottle in half (at the risk of it exploding in his face) and found the slippriest solid known to man- later to be called Teflon.
Anyway, what this all has to do with highly oxygenated water is that some doctor in Germany thirty years ago thought to add oxygen to water and do a test with his cancer patients (he evidently was a cancer surgeon). Within six minutes of giving the test group the water (Pakdaman's Water- distilled water with 50 ppm oxygen in it) their plasma oxygen partial pressure went from 20 to 30 mmHg, and stayed there for at least an hour.
When the test was done he reported that all in the test group improved and all in the control group continued to deteriorate as expected. And so he wondered why everybody didn't drink distilled, then oxygenated, water and concluded that it was either too costly to make commercially or too difficult to sell. If I'm not mistaken, he dealt with the gastro-intestinal tract, which goes right along with your comments about the friendly bacteria getting healthy rather than all the anaerobic bacteria having a field day on the road to producing cancers.
Actually, those of you that remember Grace Bliss will recall her position that all disease starts from an impacted colon. My experience with drinking Pneuma Water is that it "unimpacts" the colon- not by causing dysentery but merely by loosening up the stool somewhat. If Grace was right, or even close to being right, that is recomendation enough to drink highly oxygenated water. Sure beats coffee enemas and the like.
By the way, if thee are any of you who would like to make highly oxygenated water yourself but don't trust your own skills in doing so or lack the stuff needed, I have a half dozen extra corny kegs to sell and can get the rest of the stuff needed and send it all to you so that all you need is an oxygen bottle from your local welding supply store and a crescent wrench.
I should add that I can't do it for nothing, but if you will tell me what you think you can afford or you think it's worth in potential benifit, I think you'll find that I'm not hard to get along with. I know the scripture that says we are to work with our hands the thing that is good so we may have to give to him that needeth, but this is not a paying job that I'm in these days so I have no money to give- or things that cost money to buy either!
Information is freely given but "stuff" costs money. My email is anders@en.com.
Oldiesman, I noticed a difference by the end of the first full day. But I am one whose blood oxygen is compromised, so I would see a difference sooner than the average persoj.
I'm a slow starter in the morning. As soon as I realize I'm up and alive and have finished in the bathroom I start sipping one bottle while making breakfast...and finish it with or just after breakfast. That has gotten me to the place where I can function much better in the morning hours.
I have a strict exercise regimen, so I drink a bottle before it...and some days after it, depending on what I had to do that day. I try to avoid drinking another bottle just before bed only because I loath getting out of bed for the bathroom, and I would have to do that....so I drink it about 2 hours before bedtime.
If I'm going out, or going to do something that requires me to use extra energy, I drink another bottle before that.
It has made a significant change in my energy level so I'm very thankful to know about it.
I would caution mothers....I think it unwise to give young children distilled water exclusively for long periods of time UNLESS you know they have superior nutrition and/or provide them with pediactric vitamin/mineral supplements.
quote: You and I are on the same page, David, just in different paragraphs!
Hello Krys. I'd like to believe that, but which page are we on anyway. The other day I printed out the entire thread so I could try to see what I'd forgotten to answer or stated wrongly. To my amazement my printer gobbled up 70 pages to do the job while this thread says it's only five pages long!
"On the same page" = agree about the importance and significance of oxygenated water
"On different paragraphs" = you don't peer into black boxes...that's fine...that's how your mid works...I'm not putting you down or making criticism. But since I do...and see the workings of the box, I can sometimes see the "why" of how the box works. That's all. It's a different frame of reference.
But I wish you could get a glimpse of what I tell you about the black box, because I don't think you can fully appreciate the beauty of your discovery, or it's significance.
For example: the simple equation for photosynthesis is
water + carbon dioxode ----------------> glucose + oxygen
You're more in tune with the input and output. I have to know what's going on inside the box called photosynthesis. That shows me that there's more than meets the eye. Plants do make the sugar, but sugar dissolves in water...and everything they've worked for gets washed away in the next rainstorm unless they "fix" it in position in the plant. So they convert it into insoluble starches, the most commonly known is cellulose....wood!
The average concentration of carbon dioxide over the whole earth's atmosphere is about 1/2 of 1 %.
Now - look at photosynthesis....all the forests, grasses etc that stand today were made by a process that used 1/2 of 1% of the atmosphere. And the process itself is only 33% efficient. Additionally - this process has fed all the animals as well....and look at what's left!
Doesn't that make you look at the planet as a whole and gasp in wonder? Doesn't that make the Creator even more wonderful?
I don't doubt that you think He's wonderful too, and I didn't mean to imply such in my statement.
It's just that we've each been trained to look at the same thing through a different perspective...both equally valid...both true. Together, we amplify each other. To use your words without any disrespect or mockery....."it's simple".
Hats off to Kit Sober who twisted your arm to make the post which started this thread.
quote: But I wish you could get a glimpse of what I tell you about the black box, because I don't think you can fully appreciate the beauty of your discovery, or it's significance.
Hey Krys, I listen to every word you say, and weigh, evaluate, ponder, consider it- and am thankful for all of them. I just lack the ability to comment on everything here, much as I'd like to. For example, Galyn's problem with confusing data on atm or ATA I thought I had an answer for as I figured maybe ATA was "apparent" atmospheres. But it seems it also means atmospheres absolute. Oops, another good idea that went bust. I don't think I've ever come across a designation of "atmospheres guage" so don't know how to answer that yet.
But I just had to tell you that part of the "black box" trick is to be able to shrink and expand the black boxes and so I've gotten down to the mitochondria, the cells "Power Plant" in the cytoplasm, but not into the neucleous yet. I don't have the foggiest notion about that, other than that the carrier of energy to it must be ATP, produced by the mitochondria, as I would be surprised if it used oxygen directly.
On the other hand, I've expanded the box to include the universe and find amazing resemblence between how things work on a light year scale and an angstrom scale. I never was able to get God in the box that some claim to have Him in, but then I'm just a servant of His, not his master. Far be it from me to try to put Him in a box!
Anyway, I'm currently stuck on the black box surrounding myoglobin and trying to get a picture of how much of each muscle and heart cell is myoglobin. Seems that myoglobin is the first protein to have it's structure figured out forty or so years ago, but it's surprizing how little i've been able to find out about myoglobin research on the internet.
I'd like to assume it was 70% of the weight of a muscle cell like hemoglobin is in red blood cells because that would imply a far larger oxygen storage capacity in the body than is commonly supposed. It would also explain why people that are fit have less health problems than those who aren't since the ratio of muscle mass to body weight would be higher. Oxygen storage capacity would have far reaching implications as regards muscle exercise before hitting the anaerobic threshhold (ie. the race horse that hits that threshhold last wins!) Not that many horse trainers would listen to me, but then I hold out hope that one day I'll have my own race horse and whip them all in races and take all their money!
Anyway, in the process of trying to find out about myoglobin it was suggested that it's major role is to help transport oxygen from the cell wall to the mitochondria- as if mere diffusion down the pressure gradient wasn't sufficient.
But it seems that oxygen, like carbon dioxide, is mildly hydrophobic and so goes through cell walls easily (doesn't need aquaporin like water does, or active transport like most everything else does) to get into a cell. So I rather expect that the latest research is just more smoke and mirrors by the medical profession to belittle the role of oxygen since they can't make any money on it. I mean, how are they going to make money by simply telling folks how to breathe properly or to drink highly oxygenated water?
As for me "discovering" this great and simple thing, it has been a great discovery to me, but I doubt I'll ever make it into the history books as the discoveror, for surely there have been many before me that already knew what I've recently learned. I always laugh when I read about Mr X discovering something in England or whereever and Mr Y discovering it "independently" in Russia or somewhere else. Seems to me that good news travels just as fast as bad news, contrary to what The Man in Black sang. It's just that it travels in totally different circles and the bad news folks have all the money and control all the media and so can convince far more people that bad news is worthy of attention and good news is not! "Here, look at me, I'm bad news!"- and we're not even talking about the Really Good News of a man named Jesus raising from the dead because there was no sin in him.
Then there are the old prospectors that found the Mother Lode and covered it right back up and headed down the trail with their burro for fear they'd be killed or that exploiting such a find might change their whole lifestyle. No doubt there have been many of those since gold first got people's attention and interest.
Fact is that this "find" is so low grade to those in commerce that it hardly merits mention. If it gets shut down it will be because millions of noncommerce people have read about it and the drug companies and medical profession are beginning to feel the pain.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear you had such an immediate benifit from drinking Penta Water.
If I start drinking the Penta water, how long does it take to feel better? How long did it take for you?
Hello Oldiesman. My experience was different than Krys's because I've enjoyed good health my entire life and also am not very self-observant.
As mentioned somewhere above, I noticed the following morning, after drinking a glass or two the previous day, that my urine was colorless, something that probably hasn't happened since i took Grace Bliss's class "Lessons in Living" back in the 60's.
I made the water primarily because of my cousin Russ, who'd had lymphatic leukemia for five or more years and had fainted and collapsed to the floor on his way back from the water fountain at the Cleveland Clinic while we were waiting for him to be called for chemotherapy.
And so I made it for him but drank it myself in sympathy for him- sort of a laying on of hands kind of thing from a distance.
And so, when I discovered my urine was clear I called him to see if he'd noticed anything after drinking the water. He said his urine was colorless and added that it had been a dark brown due to all the pills he was taking and the chemotherapy. That told me there was indeed something happening but I didn't know what. Most of what I've posted on this thread I've learned since that time. All I really knew was that it was the best tasting water I'd ever consumed. That was in June, 2003.
That summer I drank a lot of it because I was working outside building a walkway along the river here. It seemed that i had lots more energy, but I couldn't prove it.
It was maybe September or October before I noticed that all those joint aches in knees, hips, shoulders and elbows that come with being 60 years old were gone and I could turn my head to a significantly greater degree as well.
But the thing that got my attention the most was discovering that my cigarette consumption had gone down from three packs a day to one pack a day. That made the water a personal profit center, what with the high cost of cigarettes these days!
So now that I've been drinking the water for a year and a half, I can truthfully say that I'm stronger than I've been in perhaps 15 years or more, many of the liver spots on my arms have either gone completely or else faded in color dramatically, my fingernails are almost smoothe again (they were like minature washboards before), I'm much less forgetful, and drinking a glass of it while waiting for the coffee to brew in the morning has me firing on all cylinders before the coffee is finished. And above all else, to go along with various doctors telling me that there was no known medical downside to drinking it, I now have a year and a half of personal evidence that there is no downside to drinking it period. That's a long way from the first batch I made, and drank a glass before taking it over to Russ, figuring there was a possibility it might kill me, even if very slight.
So with all upside and no downside, it's a no-brainer to me. I'd recommend it to anybody, anywhere, at any time.
quote: I was out there shoveling for 3 hours in freezing cold snow-blowing and didn't even freeze out. I think it's the water I've been drinking
Hello Kit. I've noticed myself that my tolerance for cold has increased since drinking the water. My working theory on why this is so is as follows.
As we age everything in our bodies becomes less efficient. The oxygen partial pressure in the blood stream is 90% of max when we are 20, 80% of max by the time we're 40, 70% of max by the time we're 50-60, and 60% of max when we're 70. That means that our normal metabolism follows the same road down since the objective of breathing is to get oxygen to the mitochondria, or "Power Plant", within each cell. The less oxygen delivered, the less food that is metabolized.
As the oxygen delivery trucks suffer more and more roadblocks on the way to the Power Plant, the Power Plant is forced to keep cutting back the number of boilers and turbines in operation and consequently the city that depends on it suffers brown-outs from time to time, with all the attendant damage brown-outs cause. These happen more and more frequently until finally there is a blackout, the Power Plant is shut down and the city dies.
So we do our best to prevent brown-outs by eating right, exercising, maintaining a happy outlook, smiling instead of frowning (which takes far less muscles to do), study and apply the Word of God, and so to a certain extent slow the aging process down. But because the metabolism process isn't what it used to be, even if we eat the same things, they don't get burned as well in those boilers and so we gain weight- which requires more energy just to carry it around. So we tire more easily, don't breathe as well, and the brown-outs increase in frequency.
But lets say we add to the water we drink all the oxygen it will carry. It's like carrying it to the cells in a C5 Cargo plane! It avoids all the roadblocks, traffic jams, etc. and gets right to the Power Plants. But it's jet fuel instead of mere fuel oil or coal, or I should say pure oxygen rather than air. All those little brown-outs start going away, there is plenty of light in the city, people in it are happy again, have more energy, and as everyone knows who ever built a steam power plant, the heat thrown away in the process of running it keeps the body warmer for longer. And so one feels like he's thirty rather than sixty when out in the snow. (Well, maybe forty or fifty instead of thirty!)
I heard today on the news that the recent Tsunami will require six months of food to be supplied by the rest of the world for two million people before their lives can get back to some semblence of normality. One C5 Transport won't do the job. So it is with drinking highly oxygenated water. Those that are twenty, in good shape, and fit as a fiddle probably don't need it. But then again maybe they could well use it anyway- in case of emergency. But if any are not feeling like they're twenty, developing the habit of drinking a third of a gallon a day of the stuff, will insure that the C5 transports keep arriving systematically to all those Power Plants huffing and puffing around the body.
quote: Are there instructions for making distilled water on this thread somewhere?
Hello Kit. The easiest way to make distilled water is to go to Sears and buy a Kenmore Water Purifier. They cost $130-$150. Actually the term "water purifier", while technically correct, is easily confused with lots of porducts that are no more than water filters.
The Kenmore actually is a distiller and is about the size of many coffee pots that sit on the kitchen counter. It makes a little less than a gallon a batch and runs off regular house current. A batch takes 4-6 hours to make and so will make enough in 24 hours to fill a corny keg. It's a perfect solution for use in winter time since the heat generated goes into the room and basically one gets the distilled water for nothing since he has to heat the room anyway.
So all one has to do is fill the first container with tap water, push the button, and come back four hours later to empty the second container that is filled with distilled water. The unit shuts off automatically when all the water is boiled out of the first container.
Of course there are a million different ways to boil water and condense it, but the Sears unit is the cheepest solution I know of.
The interesting thing to me after I got mine was when reading the instruction booklet it said that if the water didn't taste good to shake it up a little and get some air in it. At the time I thought, "Why Sears knows that oxygen in water makes it taste better!" Too bad they didn't take the next step and tell folks to saturate it with oxygen and then it will taste better than any other water on the planet.
Anyway, I don't own any stock in Sears either, in fact I don't particularly like them. But it is a relatively inexpensive, no hastle way to make distilled water. In fact, if a person had one of those oxygen generators that people on oxygen use in their homes, he probably could get close to 70 ppm oxygenated water by just sticking the tube into the distilled water carafe after it was put in the refrigerator a while to cool down to almost freezing. The trick would be to get the tube from the oxygen generator into the refrigerator or else just put ice cubes of distilled water in the carafe and let it bubble for an hour or so with the lid closed to prevent nitrogen from getting back in.
As they say, where there's a will there's a way. Learning enough to become convinced that this is a powerful, simple solution to lots of problems is the only way I know of to develope that will so as to make drinking oxygenated water a habitual process for the rest of ones life. Sure beats health insurance, hospital bills, pills, and an early death.
Last summer MSN's web page ran a story on some medical research published in the December, 2003 issue of the Journal of Clinical Endrocrinology and Metabolism. It was a story on how to lose five pounds of weight in a year's time simply by drinking an additional 500ml (about 16 oz.) of water a day. The perfectly simple solution for all those weight watchers, diet consumers, pill poppers, home exercizer folks, etc.- just drink an extra large glass of water a day!
It caught my attention because it dealt with water- my favorite subject these days. Unfortunately, the medical journal wanted money before they would let me read the actual research paper (how common of them!) and so I sent an email to the researchers in Germany and they graciously sent me the full text of the research.
Seems seven men and seven women heroically volunteered for such a risky experiment! I mean, drinking an extra glass of water each day must take herculean effort!
Anyway, I went through the paper looking for what water they used, distilled, tap, well, oxygenated, unoxygenated, whatever. To my amazement the water they used was not defined! Imagine that, an article intitled "Water Induced Thermogenesis" and they didn't even define what water they used in the tests!
But their conclusion was striking, namely that "The effect of water on energy expenditure and fuel utilization is a powerful CONFOUNDING (emphasis mine) factor in metabolic studies"
And so, with seven men and seven women volunteers, some instrumentation, and an undefined source of water, these researchers managed to show that all previous research in metabolics was darn near worthless because they didn't factor in the amount of water consumed! A hundred years of research down the drain because everybody forgot to consider what water does to the generation of energy. Hell, any steam power plant engineer could have told them a hundred years ago that running a boiler without water was sure to destroy the boiler.
Anyway, after reading and rereading the paper I replied to the authors that if they think mere water is a confounding influence in metabolic studies, they aught to consider the amount of oxygen in water and see how much it confounds metabolic studies! They replied that they would look into the matter. I hope they do, but am not optimisitic. If it took the medical profession a hundred years just to realize that water helps metabolism, it will probably take a thousand years before they ever get around to funding research into the effect that oxygen in the water has on metabolism.
But at least they got as far as showing that heating the water to body temperature only accounts for 40% of the energy produced by the body in drinking 500ml of water.
Along these lines, one of my notes from research others have done on race horses says that dehydration of just 3% results in a loss of 10% contractile strength and an 8% loss of speed in a distance race. So just neglecting a horses water bucket can lose lots of races for a sloppy trainer, or an overworked trainer who is too cheep to hire any help (they want the $50 a day they get to train a horse all to stay in their pocket if possible), or a greedy trainer that has far too many horses than he or she can adequately train. And that's before they even take the time to read a thread like this one to get some idea that oxygen added to the water might change them from losers to winners and make their horses happy campers in the process. Ah, common sense ain't so common any more it seems!
quote: The Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine 1931
Presentation Speech by Professor E. Hammarsten, member of the Nobel Committee for Physiology or Medicine of the Royal Caroline Institute, on December 10, 1931
Your Majesty, Your Royal Highnesses, Ladies and Gentlemen.
The discovery for which the Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine is to be awarded today concerns intracellular combustion: that fundamental vital process by which substances directly supplied to cells or stored in them are broken down into simpler components while using up oxygen. It is by this process that the energy required for other vital processes is made available to the cells in a form capable of immediate utilization.
Many famous names and many discoveries have been associated with research on this vital process, while, before natural philosophical thought was limited by the demands of accurate measurement, it was a fertile field for speculation. The life work of many savants finds a place in the volume of which Otto Warburg has written - for the time being - the last pages. The first were written by John Mayow in 1670, then less than 30 years of age, whose observations on the power of saltpetre to set fire to organic substances led him to the view that certain igneo-aerial particles existed in saltpetre, in the air, and also in organic substances. He inferred that the significance and function of respiration was to bring these particles into the body, and so make combustion therein possible. It is clear that Mayow's igneo-aerial particles correspond with oxygen, which had not yet been discovered. Some thirty years later the ill-famed phlogiston theory of combustion was born, and spread like an epidemic throughout the scientific world, causing the seeking for truth to be diverted from its proper course that had been opened by Mayow's discovery, which had, if one may use a somewhat dubious expression, been made before its time and had received little attention. Comprehension of the mechanism of combustion was thus, quite foolishly as it might seem, delayed for more than a century. Return to the proper path had to await the discovery by Lavoisier of the real nature of the process in connection with the final discovery and isolation of oxygen in the hands of Priestley and Scheele. Otto Warburg's work has met with a kinder fate.
As combustion of foodstuffs outside the body in the presence of atmospheric oxygen occurs only at high temperatures, it must be assumed that during combustion in living cells, something happens that alters the rather inert air-oxygen, or the foodstuff, or perhaps both so that they can react with each other. Fully conscious of the insuperable difficulties of explaining at present the innermost mechanism by which this inertness was overcome, Warburg decided to investigate the nature of the mysterious substance that acts as the primus motor in intracellular combustion. Nature often seems to use methods that appear to be indirect and less «natural» than those we should have devised, and such was the case here. It was not possible to isolate the active substance, the catalyst, or respiratory ferment as Warburg called it, by ordinary chemical methods, because it forms less than about a millionth of the weight of the cells to which it is firmly bound, while it is easily destroyed by procedures which might be used for liberating it. So, just as in modern atomic research, indirect methods had to be used.
It had been known, since the days of Davy and Berzelius, that many metals possess the power of initiating or accelerating various reactions, including combustion. Starting from the possibility that had indeed been envisaged earlier, Warburg assumed that intracellular combustion might also be regarded as being due to catalysis by metals, i.e. that it might be initiated by some metallic compound. Definite proof that he was on the track of this well-hidden secret of Nature was obtained by the use of exact measurements of combustion in living cells or, as Warburg calls it, cell respiration. The quantitatively measured variations in the process of combustion under different conditions threw light on the nature of the respiratory ferment. Its tendency to enter into compounds with substances which combine with iron showed that it is itself an iron compound, and that its effects are due to iron. The correspondence between the effects of light on cellular combustion inhibited by carbon monoxide and on carbon-monoxide compounds of certain pigments closely related to blood pigments led, with the aid of a detailed mathematical analysis to the conclusion that the respiratory ferment is a red pigment containing iron, and that it is closely related to our own blood pigment. This was the first demonstration of an effective catalyst, a ferment, in the living organism, and this identification is the more important because it throws light on a process of general significance in the maintenance of life.
Professor Warburg. From the start, your research has been focussed on problems of central importance. Your bold ideas, but above all, your keen intelligence and rare perfection in the art of exact measurement have won for you exceptional successes, and for the science of biology some of its most valuable material.
I take the liberty of mentioning those two of your discoveries, which seem to be of the greatest value.
The medical world expects great things from your experiments on cancer and other tumours, experiments which seem already to be sufficiently far advanced to be able to furnish an explanation for at least one cause of the destructive and unlimited growth of these tumours.
Your discovery about the nature and effect of the ferment of respiration, which the Caroline Institute is rewarding this year with Alfred Nobel's Prize for Physiology or Medicine, has added a link of brilliant achievement to the chain that binds for all time, John Mayow (England), Antoine Laurent Lavoisier (France), and Otto Warburg (Germany). On behalf of the Caroline Institute I invite you to accept the prize from the hands of our King.
From Nobel Lectures, Physiology or Medicine 1922-1941, Elsevier Publishing Company, Amsterdam, 1965
I apologize for thinking that Otto Warburg received the Nobel Prize in the 1950's. As can be seen above, it was 1931. The "respratory ferment" in a cell, that Warburg was talking about, that contained iron, was later called myoglobin, the first protein to have it's structure worked out- for which the Nobel Prize was given in the 50's. The structure for some 30,000 proteins has now been determined and I dare say that each and every one of them can be found somewhere on the internet!
Also, one could spend a lifetime on the internet by starting with "Otto Warburg" in a search engine box and going from there. He evidently was offered a second Nobel Prize during the 40's but was not allowed to accept it by Hitler. He was one Jew however that enjoyed Hitler's protection and the Jewish lobby would do well to point that out (though, of course, they won't because it would weaken the stranglehold that holocaust and it's revenue stream has on the world.)
Anyway, to be linked from the time of Mayow (1670) to 1931, with only one name inbetween (Lavoisier) is a rare find in any field of science. And oxygen hadn't even been discovered at the time of Mayow! They knew something was going on, but didn't know what.
What I chuckled about when reading the above is that the field of medicine did not even have it's own category for a Nobel Prize as of 1931. Warburg was first a physiologist (PhD in chemistry) and afterwards an MD. He was a researcher, not a quack physician that poisons you with pills and takes your money. And, interestingly enough, his hobby was equine sports!
From the few articles I did read about him on the internet, it appears that in the 60's he and an associate were about to publish a work that could have obliterated cancer as a cause for concern. But some nefarious persons or group of people prevented that from happening. For example, he evidently knew of a simple "antidote" for excessive smoking that eliminated the need to quit. It eveidently had something to do with the vitamin nicotinic acid. Oh my, the Trial Lawyers of America would have hated that one since they now get something like half the money of each pack of cigarettes sold in America. I'm getting an even worse taste in my mouth for doctors and lawyers than I had- and it was plenty bad to begin with!
Anyway, in deference to Krys, please note that the combustion reaction mentioned in the quote above is the basic reaction in the cell, glucose + oxygen yields CO2 + H2O + energy. The usable enegry produced from the reaction goes to making ATP, which is the "energy carrier" for all the other reactions that Krys is talking about. The rest of the energy goes to such things as heating the body or away from the body vial the lungs and skin. This all happens when a glucose molecule and an oxygen molecule arrive at the mitochondria, the "power plant" of the cell.
When the cell runs out of oxygen, energy is still produced, but only a net of 1 ATP is produced in the anaerobic process for each 18 ATP produced in the aerobic one. And so the trick is to get enough oxygen into the cell so it doesn't run out- or runs out after everyone else in the race has run out first!
Once the anaerobic threshold has been reached damage begins to be done- which is why exercise physiologists advise to push the limit but not go over it (ie. don't exercise longer than your aerobic threshold allows you to, or, in other words, don't reach exhaustion.) For those particular muscle groups that are being exercised, one then doesn't push the max again until three days later- to allow the body to heal and supercompensate for the damage done during the exercise.
This is particularly noticable in weight lifting exercies like bench presses. One starts at a comfortable weight that allows him or her to do three sets of ten reps, with perhaps five minutes inbetween sets. The next two days one does something else and the third day (assuming he or she got the three sets of 10 reps in the previous time) 5# more of weight is added. Like clock work one can add 5# about once a week. Try to build up strength to fast and something pops and you're out of business for a month while major repair goes on.
It's been a lot of years since I did weight lifting exercise, but my guess is that if one's water intake is all water oxygenated to 75 ppm oxygen, the repair, building, and supercompensation proces will probably take only two days instead of three. I wouldn't bet on that at this point, but would bet that it is shorter, even if only half a day or a quarter of a day.
You can read lots of comments about the body not being able to store oxygen, but they are wrong. In the first place, hemoglobin normally only dumps off one of it's four oxygen molecules on it's way around the circuit. The other three are reserve capacity. Storage. Then there is myoglobin in the skeletal muscles and heart muscle that store oxygen for a rainly day- provided the oxygen pressure is high enough in the lymph surrounding each cell. How much storage is there remains to be seen. My guess is that it will hold more than hemoglobin holds for a rainy day. It is a well known fact that in the process of becoming fit, not only does the body lay down additional capillary structures, it also builds more myoglobin. But like an arm in a cast, muscles will atrophy when not used and no oxygen gets to them. Myoglobin will do the same as will the capillary bed.
Thanks to Otto Warburg we know the central role of oxygen in each cell- or we probably would still be in the dark ages regarding the subject. NO doubt lots of doctors are still in the dark ages.
I would like to believe in the benefits of oxygenated water and other such things. But in regards to oxygenated water, DA's word salads, pseudoscience and ad hominem attacks againt the naysayers have not convinced me.
It seems to me that if a normal person's blood oxygen is at 97 percent, then there is only room for a 3 percent increase in blood oxygen levels. This is a negligible increase. My guess is that the feel good effect of oxygenated water is simply a palcebo effect - but there is something to be said for placebo effects though.
There seem to be no peer reviewed scientific studies doccumenting the claims made by the oxygenated water folks - this is suspect. The only evidence of any real benefits is anecdotal - also suspect.
The only real study that I can find on this was done at the Univ. of Wisconsin. It found no meaureable benefits in regards to heart rate, blood pressure, blood lactate and oxygen consumption.
Like so many medical and alternative remedies, this seems like just another batch of snake oil that puts money in the pockets of those marketing it.
I could not agree with you more. I also looked for empiracle studies but found none.
I am a special case, since I can not keep my oxygen levels high. BUT those figures 97% and so on are really measurements of that bound to hemoglobin. In order to be used, it must unbind from hemoglobin, enter the cell-bathing solution (aka lymph) and meander into the cell.
Oxygen must first dissolve in the watery cell mucous surrounding the alveoli befor it can diffuse into the blood and hop on the hemoglobin.
Msybe this isn't a situation which encompasses all people. Maybe it does. I'm still looking and evaluating myself.
And I don't think you believe me to be a "flake" so you will have to take me at my word that I did find an energy increase. Also, realize I am oxygen compromised, as I said...so perhaps I notice it because it helps me and not the average guy.
I bought some Penta water to see what happened, and the results are what I've said above on this thread.
In my case, I absolutely know it is NOT a placebo effect. I do respect your words, Goey, because you use them well.
Actully - - since I've been consuming the Penta water...for all I know it could be the unclustered water.........which we know will be effective...it is a Nobel Prize winning award...maybe it's better hydration......
Think what you will. We no longer have to dine from the same can of spaghettios!
quote: The only real study that I can find on this was done at the Univ. of Wisconsin. It found no meaureable benefits in regards to heart rate, blood pressure, blood lactate and oxygen consumption.
Hey Goey, how about posting the link to the study you alude to so we can find out what they said and did't say for ourselves. At least your predecessors in the naysayer camp had the courtesy to do that much.
The 97% number you throw in is meaningless since you didn't tell us what it was 97% of. If it is suposed to mean that the hemoglobin is 97% saturated in the arterial side of the circulatory system, that's one thing. If it's suposed to mean that the red blood cells carry 97% of the oxygen in the circulatory system, that's something else. So which is it?
In the former case, 97% saturated hemoglobin (or SaO2) is almost meaningless since it doesn't tell you if you're in the process of dying because you have so few red blood cells left that you can't possibly furnish the oxygen needs of your body- even though those few cells and their hemoglobin is 97% saturated, or if you're so stinking healthy that your heart only needs to beat one time per minute to carry all the oxygen your body needs and your heart, arteries, veins and lungs are in such good shape that the resistance the heart sees when it does squeeze one stroke's worth of blood out is less than 120/80. In other words, the question "How's your hemoglobin doing" cannot be answered by a simple SaO2 measurement.
I do know, and I believe I mentioned it early on in this thread, that a person can be kept alive without any hemoglobin function whatsoever if the plasma oxygen concentration can be increased to 30ppm in a hyperbaric chamber. It's been done and so is simply a fact, not something that needs statistical analysis or double blind, peer reviewed papers to give it credibility.
Fact is that this thread is much more of a peer reviewed study than any you're likely to find coming out of any medical school- they're lucky to find 10 readers instead of hundreds or thousands. But then Martin Luther's Ninety Five Thesis probably doesn't count either because it wasn't a double blind peer reviewed study. He posted it on the church door at the university of Wittenburg so that everyone, professor and student alike could review it and comment on it as they liked. I dare say that they even gave their names when they commented- how unmodern of them!
But just to put the matter into some kind of perspective, the body is 60% water and 2/3's of that water is inside the cells of the body while only 1/3 is outside the cells. So a 200 pound person consists of 120 pounds of water, 80 pounds (or about 10 gallons- water weighs 8.3 pounds per gallon) are inside all the ten trillion cells of the body, leaving only 40 pounds (or about 5 gallons) to be spread around in the lymph system and the circulatory system.
The lymph system is twice the size of the circulatory system, leaving only 13 pounds of water in the circulatory system. In that 13 pounds of water all the red blood cells swim around and inside them all the hemoglobin molecules swim around.
Fact is that I'm not talking about hemoglobin at all, I'm talking about oxygenated water that one drinks. It bypasses the entire circulatory system and goes right into the lymph system (or about 2/3's of it does) and so one sixteen ounce glass of it can increase the oxygen partial pressure in the entire body, not just the 13 pounds of water in the plasma, by 20%. That's just a simple calculation of 1 pound of water at 75ppm oxygen added to 120 pounds at 3 ppm. Obviously some of it gets used up by the teeth, gums, tongue, etc. on it's way to the small intestine, and gets used up by the freindly bacteria (the aerobic kind) in the intestinal tract, but it appears that most of it gets into the 60% of the body that is water, one way or another. The equine and human tests mentioned in posts above attest to that.
Hey, if you want to do some double blind, placebo controled, cross-over tests with oxygenated water, you're free to do so. You can even post it here for peer review. Hey, maybe you can get your uncle stickey, or your grandfather gooooey, or aunt snotty, to fund your research. You might even make money at it, but don't count on it. There's no serious money to be made in water, expecially with a guy like me around to tell everybody how to make it themselves!
Fortunately I know what Jesus said about those who would not believe what he said even if he rose from the dead to prove it. But, they will, just give it a little time!
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krys
With all due respect to Dave and Galen...I haven't added much to this topic lately although I believe oxygenated water is a beneficial thing.
Galen...when you were in deep water...what was the atmospheric pressure that was maintained within the submarine? I doubt it was nearly as high as the pressure would have been on you had you been outside the sub.
I was interested in the % of the oxygen because I know that if an individual maintains a blood oxygen content of less than 90% over a period of time the body declines with brain function and heart function compromised. It's not the quantity of oxygen outside the body - normal folks can maintain oxygen % above 90 % because if the pressure is a little higher...and the individual has normal lung function to begin with...there would be no problem maintaining a % >90% in a relatively poor oxygen environment. (yes, C02 us the big buggaboo, but I was interested in the oxygen quantity.
David – with all due respect you think too much like an engineer! (sorry – don’t know how else to say it) I believe your ideas about how the body work are simplistic, unless I have grossly misread you.
We say that oxygen is a poison. Perhaps it would be more correct to say that it produces poisons if not properly utilized. Most people think that
C6H12O6 + 6 O2-----------------------------------> 6CO2 + 6H20
But that’s now how it actually works.
The reason or purpose of the above equation is to produce energy for the cell and the body. Energy is the whole reason for it. There are about 30 separate chemical reactions, each depending on the one before it…which cells use. Some of the CO2 is made in the beginning and most of it in the middle somewhere, but the oxygen isn’t used until the last few steps.
What happens is, that if too much sugar goes down this road….such that the cells cannot properly use the oxygen….poisonous products back up the system. So for convenience sake we say too much oxygen poisons the body. It is actually the buildup of these toxins which result in blindness of preemie infants or severe disorientation in very deep diving people.
Preemies aren’t put in hyperbaric chambers. Oxygen is delivered under pressure via a nasal cannula. Sometimes they are kept under an oxygen tent which is slightly pressurized….but not in a chamber.
Living systems are so complex. They break the geometric law stating that the whole cannot be greater than the sum of its parts…..in the case of living systems…it ain’t necessarily so!
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Galen
Krysilis-
“Galen...when you were in deep water...what was the atmospheric pressure that was maintained within the submarine? I doubt it was nearly as high as the pressure would have been on you had you been outside the sub.â€
Like I said, my boats generally kept things between 1 and 1.5 atm. We always had a couple pressure gauges that we re-calibrated on the surface, then while we were under we would always have some reference to be able to surface again. If the pressure inside the boat was a lot different from the outside air then opening hatches would be a problem [they would get stuck]. But the only time we really paid any attention to the actual pressure was when we were thinking about going up to the surface again, and at that time an effect would be made to regain 1 atm. Most of the time, the pressure would drift around depending on what we were doing.
With an O2 generator running and bleeding off some O2 to the crew [the rest of the O2 went into tanks for later use], it would add a little pressure to the boat and maintain O2 at 15-18%. The CO2 scrubbers ran to extract CO2 and we ported it overboard along with the excess H2 from the O2 generators. So you have some stuff running to add pressure, while other stuff is running to lower pressure.
But nobody really cares until it is time to resurface and open the hatches, or if we have a lot of smoke and we want to ventilate to get rid of the smoke [which happened a lot it seems].
The boats I served on [boomers] had no divers onboard. We were just there to maintain the missiles and keep ready to launch them into orbit, so that they could launch multiple warheads back down.
Other boats had divers [fast attacks] and some of them carry mini-subs in a hanger mounted on top so the divers could go ‘traveling about’, and can do so daily if they need. Then we developed those ‘brown-water’ boats [old boomers converted to carry and deploy troops] now they could rapidly deploy troops from underwater [uSS James K. Polk and the USS Kamahamaha]. Then of course we have over stuff like the NR-1 that does other stuff with divers for research.
Like I said, the greatest pressure that I have functioned in was at 400 feet, though it was only for a short period of time. All my boats went to depths of greater than 400 feet, and usually maintained something around 1 to 1.5 atm inside the boat [until we needed to surface or ventilate, when we made an effort to regain exactly 1 atm].
When we are on the surface and ventilating, preparing to go down, we do routinely ‘pressurize the boat’, meaning we continue sucking in air but we stop exhausting, to build up a little pressure just before we shut down the induction mast and dive. It kind of gives us just a little bit more air. Maybe it was a mental thing, but when you have to work to make your own air, getting that extra little bit of air for free was good.
Boats with divers routinely cycle their escape trunks, allowing divers to come and go. Each time they cycle those trunks the pressure inside the boat goes up some. Until the next time they need to surface, when they make an effort to regain exactly 1 atm, to allow them to ventilate.
Other vessels like the sea-labs would maintain an open diving hatch, so they would routinely maintain sea-pressure inside. But I have never served onboard one of those.
Once while we were inport and crewmembers were bringing their families and girlfriends onboard for tours, we were lined up to ‘surface-ventilate’. [Which meant that we sucked in air via an induction mast and we left the hatches open to naturally exhaust] On cold nights the topside watches liked to stand in front of the open hatches, as warm air from inside would blast them and keep them warm. Anyway this time, we had shut the aft hatch [probably as we were sitting a little low in the water and did not like water rushing in through an open hatch]. So we were ‘surface-ventilating’ with only one hatch open, the control room hatch, and the crew was bringing family and girlfriends aboard for tours. It was a common thing for girlfriends to come down to visit the boat wearing a skirt or a ‘sun-dress’, while climbing down the 30 feet ladder into the control room their dresses would be blown up over their heads and they would need assistance finding the rungs of the ladder to continue working their way down into the boat. So it work out as a nice form of entertainment for the crew as well. Now the control room hatch was round and 33 inches in diameter. And one time the COB brought his wife down to the boat, she was kind of portly, and while stepped down the ladder, the usual thing happened. One sight of that and everyone in the control room turned away so as not to look. But she got stuck. She wedged herself into the 33 inch hatch ring and her extra rolls of flab sealed that hatch ring good and tight. When the boat began pressurizing. Many crewmen ran to the control room to see what had happened and render aid. During this the Cob’s wife had let go of the ladder and was swinging her feet, in an effort to work her body down through the hatch. But the pressure kept building, and our ears were popping, so we decided that the quickest path to relief was to push her back out. I was one of the guys that went up the ladder, to attempt to support one leg and push her back up. Fortunately the building pressure was on our side and eventually the pressure lifted her right up out of the hatch ring.
:-)
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David Anderson
Hello Krys. I sure wish everyone thought like an engineer because maybe then I'd be able to talk to them. I'm a firm believer in "See it Big, Keep it Simple" and have all too much experience with those who see it small and then complicate the hell out of what little they see.
For example, engineers use a "black box" to solve lots of problems. In other words, they draw a box around what they are investigating and begin by admitting that they know nothing about what is inside the box. It's irrelivant to the problem at hand. They then look at what goes into the box and what comes out of the box rather than the myriad of things that are possible inside the box. It's simple, but I assure you it is not simplistic. It's usually those who are investigating very small parts inside the box that call the method simplistic.
So I began my investigation by not giving a damn about people, due to the hell I went through over the past 14 years trying to defend the right to liberty of an 81 year old woman. All I got from people was excuses why they couldn't help, wouldn't help, didn't care- or thought the concept was simplistic (ie. 81 years old women aught to die so that others could take their money and their space).
So I took up horses as much more interesting than people and far more thankful when you did them a favor. Simple solution but not simplistic at all. And it has led to some profound, yet simple discoveries- like the value of highly oxygenated water to one's health.
All it takes to understand is maybe a high school chemistry and physics course, although I've tried to make the subject even simpler than that- for we all understand that we need oxygen and water to live as well as food. And food is the least of these, not the greatest- at least we can live far longer without food than we can without oxygen or water.
My guess is that there are a million studies done on food (and drugs as a subset of food) for every one study done on water and/or oxygen. And we now must suffer through advertisements for pills to a greater extent than we used to suffer through ads for coke and Pepsi on the tv. So please excuse me for daring to have contempt for them all, and to think poorly of comments that would dismiss the subject of oxygen and water as "simplistic", worthy only of "private topic" status, or more lethal yet, those who would say "You'll only burp" or "it's as silly as anything I've come across"- as the medical doctor wrote about Millenium Coolers above.
Fact is that someone could discover a pill that contained the fountain of youth in it and still very few would take it- until everyone else did first that is. Then they would merely lie and tell everybody they'd been taking it for years.
So let's talk about a race horse for a minute. There "blood" volume is 72 cc per kilogram of weight. If they are very fit, this can go up to 100 cc per kilogram of weight, as they grow more capillaries as well as more muscle mass. That's a fact that speaks loudly to an engineer like me. It means that by proper exercise one can increase the size of the circulatory system in the horse's body from 7.2% to 10% of his body size, or(2.8/7.2= .389) almost a 40% increase in "horse" (assuming the circulatory system is a measure of how much horse one has at the beginning of the day- ie. how much work he can do).
That fact doesn't say a thing about how much hemoglobin is in the circulatory system, how much oxygen is in the plasma, how healthy the red blood cells are that make up about 18% of the "Blood", or how healthy the hemoglobin molecules are inside the red blood cells. They are all things inside the "black box" called the circulatory system. The whole system increases by 40%.
So an engineer would say that if you put in exercise of the correct amount and at the correct rate, to the black box, out will come increased speed and increased endurance- ie, the amount of work the black box can do will increase. It increase in the circulatory system is an aside- even if a remarkable one!
But let's look a little into the black box called the circulatory system. Let's say it comprises 7.2% of the normal human body as it does the normal horses body. Inside that black box one finds that 82% of it is water, leaving the rest to swim in the water and comprise only 18% of it, or 1.3% of the total body weight (7.2 x .18 = 1.296).
Further, evidently the maximum amount of hemoglobin in a red blood cell is 70% of it's mass. So we're left with hemoglobin comprising only a fraction of one percent of the body's weight (.9% if one excludes the white blood cells, platlets, and other solids in the blood stream and figures it's all red blood cells).
Yet everybody knows all about hemoglobin and nothing at all about water. (actually, the average person also knows nothing about hemoglobin, but thinks he does because he's heard the word used lots of times in place of "blood" and thinks they are synonomous.)
And this is what I pressume you are talking about when you say that the "blood" carrying less than 90% of the oxygen it should is a problem. You're talking about hemoglobin saturation, not total "blood" capacity.
The medical profession would have us believe that the amount of oxygen carried in the plasma is insignificant and only that carried by the hemoglobin in red blood cells is significant. But that is because they are too lazy to calculate out how much water there is in the body, or in the blood stream, let alone want to maximize the oxygen in it! Hell, they'd lose business and their "profit center" if they focused on good health rather than on quick fixes and come-back-in-two-weeks methodology.
So they take an artificial measurement by clipping on a clothes-pin-like divice to a finger, then measuring the relative concentration of light waves going through the finger, see that converted to another artificial number, SaO2, on the read-out, and then tell us that since it is over 90% that oxygen is not our problem. Talk about simplistic!!!
The measurement doesn't tell how many red blood cells are alive and well in the blood stream, it doesn't tell how much hemoglobin is inside each red blood cell, it doesn't tell whether those hemoglobin molecules are alive or dead as a door nail. In short, it is a quick demonstration that they "care", when, in fact, most don't care at all- no more than most lawyers care, most politicians care, most preachers care or most businessmen care about you or me. They care about money, and to most folks money is the measure of all things. A very bad measurement in my view- in fact it will kill you if you're not careful!
And so, the body is 60% water and less than 1% hemoglobin, and every oxygen molecule carried by hemoglobin has to get dumped off into water (the plasma) before it can do any good.
I tried to show in a previous post how drinking oxygen saturated water gets oxygen right next to the cells of the body without having to suffer the pressure loss inherent in the circulatory system. It goes right into the start of the lymph system (called Chyle) at the small intestine- and the lymph system is twice the size of the circulatory system!
Hemoglobin can only deliver it back into the plasma at a pressure of 39 millimeters of Mercury. And it must then get through the capillary wall before it can get into the intersticial fluid (the lymph system). Oxygen saturated water can get it beyond the capillary system and right into the intersticial water, and get it there at close to 760 millimeters of Mercury (assuming the person isn't so low on overall oxygen that it all gets consumed by the teeth, gums, etc. on it's way down to the small intestine.)
So, to use a baseball analogy, hemoglobin lays down lots of bunts and some of them might even get the oxygen to first base. The oxygen in oxygen saturated water is a home run. Most of the ten trillion cells in the body are happy with a lot of bunts, but those that are sick need a home run to make them happy again. A few home runs and they're ready to be happy with bunts again! Without the home runs they're dead in the water!
Then there's the take-out-the-trash guys (the immune system- 90% of which are evidently located right around the small intestines) and they aren't really up to their full strength at running or weightlifting unless the oxygen partial pressure in the lymph is up to 50-80 mm Hg- beyond what hemoglobin itself can deliver. So you can either eat lots of fruits or juices (provided they're not homoginized and therefore devoid of any oxygen) or you can drink highly oxygenated water. The latter is much less taxing on the wallet. And, if one developes the habit of drinking highly oxygenated water as a daily routine, he's likely to not even notice the trash being taken out, let alone lie in bed because of it- when the muscles are too weak to do any good due to the immune system demanding all the oxygen just to take out the huge volume of trash that caught up to all those 90 pound weaklings lazing around and calling themselves trash collectors. All of a sudden they are huffing and puffing and stealing the muscles oxygen just to take out the trash.
Why, with all the pill stuff around that claims to "improve the immune system" one would think the medical profession would pay a little more attention to the lymph system. In the US they evidently don't although in Europe they evidently do.
And, it's Mister Simplistic to you! (just kidding).
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krys
Dear Mr. Simplistic:
Engineers accept a black box as an unknown entity. They only measure what goes in and what comes out. That is a perfectly correct way to work if you're an engineer.
There are people on the planet, however, who love to peer inside these black boxes and figure them out. I am one of those people. I don't understand it all, but I do understand a great deal of it.
You maintain that oxygen is not poisonous. I have showed you that essentially, literally that is correct, however, by peering into the black box, I can understand how the oxygen behaves in such a way as to do cellular damage indirectly and act as a poison.
Keeping thins overly simple causes confusion sometimes in todays more highly enducated society. When you and I went to school, practically nothing was taught regarding the DNA black box, for example, because even the DNA wan't "discovered" much less understoon when I was in high school....but students today can understant what is meant when they are told something is "mutagenic". Keeping things overly simple does no service to modern day John Q. Public.
Yes, medical doctors measure blood oxygen with that clothspin thinggie (pulse oximiter). It measures the oxygen in the hemaglobin, but also the carbon monoxide too....so it is a false reading in smokers (by as much as 5 - 7 %) but is the only reliable way to get such a measurement since getting a true fix on the total oxygen requires a painful needle stab in a wrist artery and time to process the results. When and if technology gives them a better tool, I'm sure they'll use it.
Yes, it's true there have been a few wise-a$$ comments made on this thread...but there are also a lot more hits than I would expect given the number of posters....this leads me to believe that some are reading for information whether they act on it or not...they want to know what we're discussing. I think we should give them as full a picture as possible...and leaving out any of the black box mysteries sells them short.
You and I are on the same page, David, just in different paragraphs!
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David Anderson
You and I are on the same page, David, just in different paragraphs!
Hello Krys. I'd like to believe that, but which page are we on anyway. The other day I printed out the entire thread so I could try to see what I'd forgotten to answer or stated wrongly. To my amazement my printer gobbled up 70 pages to do the job while this thread says it's only five pages long!
You are right, there was a lot of stuff going on when we were in high school. Warburg got the Nobel Prize for showing the central role of oxygen (or more precisely the lack of it) in cancer formation and I think only a few years later the structure of DNA was worked out as well as the structure of the myoglobin molecule. During that time they were using hyperbarics on premature babies and although I don't know to what pressures or in what kind of chambers that were put, the bad rap on hyperbarics causing retenal failure set back the field of hyperbarics maybe thirty years- until someone showed it wasn't the pressure causing the problem but the rate of change of the pressure, and that reintroducing the pressure and then more slowly causing it to drop showed the damage was reversable. (and every engineer loves reversable things!) I think the same thing applies to damage to the nervous system- it's reversable if the pressure is taken off slower.
But just because lots of work has been done since the 50's doesn't mean that folks are one wit smarter than they were then. We may have discovered new and novel devices but the over-all education level has actually decreased, not increased- at least in Cleveland, Ohio it has!
By the way, I also disagree with the concept that great inventions are started by technicians and then given form by scientists, or a comment something like that.
It reminded me of a conversation I had with the chairman of the chemistry department at Wright State years ago. He was a polymer chemist and admitted that most significant discoveries were because someone threw the wrong ingredients into a vat and totally ruined the batch. But while looking at the mess they'd made they noticed some interesting properties of the mess. And so polymers were discovered. But the professor then added that after lots of new and novel devices were made using polymers, finally a university research department would get funded so they could find out HOW polymers worked- and thereby expand the usefulness (and profitableness) of them.
Teflon was like that. A recent graduate in chemical engineering, working for DuPont back in the 30's, hooked up a new bottle of some liquid under pressure that he needed for the tests he was doing. But nothing came out of the bottle. Normally one would just get another bottle to replace it. But it bothered him and so he cut the bottle in half (at the risk of it exploding in his face) and found the slippriest solid known to man- later to be called Teflon.
Anyway, what this all has to do with highly oxygenated water is that some doctor in Germany thirty years ago thought to add oxygen to water and do a test with his cancer patients (he evidently was a cancer surgeon). Within six minutes of giving the test group the water (Pakdaman's Water- distilled water with 50 ppm oxygen in it) their plasma oxygen partial pressure went from 20 to 30 mmHg, and stayed there for at least an hour.
When the test was done he reported that all in the test group improved and all in the control group continued to deteriorate as expected. And so he wondered why everybody didn't drink distilled, then oxygenated, water and concluded that it was either too costly to make commercially or too difficult to sell. If I'm not mistaken, he dealt with the gastro-intestinal tract, which goes right along with your comments about the friendly bacteria getting healthy rather than all the anaerobic bacteria having a field day on the road to producing cancers.
Actually, those of you that remember Grace Bliss will recall her position that all disease starts from an impacted colon. My experience with drinking Pneuma Water is that it "unimpacts" the colon- not by causing dysentery but merely by loosening up the stool somewhat. If Grace was right, or even close to being right, that is recomendation enough to drink highly oxygenated water. Sure beats coffee enemas and the like.
By the way, if thee are any of you who would like to make highly oxygenated water yourself but don't trust your own skills in doing so or lack the stuff needed, I have a half dozen extra corny kegs to sell and can get the rest of the stuff needed and send it all to you so that all you need is an oxygen bottle from your local welding supply store and a crescent wrench.
I should add that I can't do it for nothing, but if you will tell me what you think you can afford or you think it's worth in potential benifit, I think you'll find that I'm not hard to get along with. I know the scripture that says we are to work with our hands the thing that is good so we may have to give to him that needeth, but this is not a paying job that I'm in these days so I have no money to give- or things that cost money to buy either!
Information is freely given but "stuff" costs money. My email is anders@en.com.
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oldiesman
David,
If I start drinking the Penta water, how long does it take to feel better? How long did it take for you?
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krys
Oldiesman, I noticed a difference by the end of the first full day. But I am one whose blood oxygen is compromised, so I would see a difference sooner than the average persoj.
I'm a slow starter in the morning. As soon as I realize I'm up and alive and have finished in the bathroom I start sipping one bottle while making breakfast...and finish it with or just after breakfast. That has gotten me to the place where I can function much better in the morning hours.
I have a strict exercise regimen, so I drink a bottle before it...and some days after it, depending on what I had to do that day. I try to avoid drinking another bottle just before bed only because I loath getting out of bed for the bathroom, and I would have to do that....so I drink it about 2 hours before bedtime.
If I'm going out, or going to do something that requires me to use extra energy, I drink another bottle before that.
It has made a significant change in my energy level so I'm very thankful to know about it.
I would caution mothers....I think it unwise to give young children distilled water exclusively for long periods of time UNLESS you know they have superior nutrition and/or provide them with pediactric vitamin/mineral supplements.
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krys
oops
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krys
"On the same page" = agree about the importance and significance of oxygenated water
"On different paragraphs" = you don't peer into black boxes...that's fine...that's how your mid works...I'm not putting you down or making criticism. But since I do...and see the workings of the box, I can sometimes see the "why" of how the box works. That's all. It's a different frame of reference.
But I wish you could get a glimpse of what I tell you about the black box, because I don't think you can fully appreciate the beauty of your discovery, or it's significance.
For example: the simple equation for photosynthesis is
water + carbon dioxode ----------------> glucose + oxygen
You're more in tune with the input and output. I have to know what's going on inside the box called photosynthesis. That shows me that there's more than meets the eye. Plants do make the sugar, but sugar dissolves in water...and everything they've worked for gets washed away in the next rainstorm unless they "fix" it in position in the plant. So they convert it into insoluble starches, the most commonly known is cellulose....wood!
The average concentration of carbon dioxide over the whole earth's atmosphere is about 1/2 of 1 %.
Now - look at photosynthesis....all the forests, grasses etc that stand today were made by a process that used 1/2 of 1% of the atmosphere. And the process itself is only 33% efficient. Additionally - this process has fed all the animals as well....and look at what's left!
Doesn't that make you look at the planet as a whole and gasp in wonder? Doesn't that make the Creator even more wonderful?
I don't doubt that you think He's wonderful too, and I didn't mean to imply such in my statement.
It's just that we've each been trained to look at the same thing through a different perspective...both equally valid...both true. Together, we amplify each other. To use your words without any disrespect or mockery....."it's simple".
Hats off to Kit Sober who twisted your arm to make the post which started this thread.
affectionately,
krys
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oldiesman
Thanks Krys.
Bring on the Penta water.
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David Anderson
Hey Krys, I listen to every word you say, and weigh, evaluate, ponder, consider it- and am thankful for all of them. I just lack the ability to comment on everything here, much as I'd like to. For example, Galyn's problem with confusing data on atm or ATA I thought I had an answer for as I figured maybe ATA was "apparent" atmospheres. But it seems it also means atmospheres absolute. Oops, another good idea that went bust. I don't think I've ever come across a designation of "atmospheres guage" so don't know how to answer that yet.
But I just had to tell you that part of the "black box" trick is to be able to shrink and expand the black boxes and so I've gotten down to the mitochondria, the cells "Power Plant" in the cytoplasm, but not into the neucleous yet. I don't have the foggiest notion about that, other than that the carrier of energy to it must be ATP, produced by the mitochondria, as I would be surprised if it used oxygen directly.
On the other hand, I've expanded the box to include the universe and find amazing resemblence between how things work on a light year scale and an angstrom scale. I never was able to get God in the box that some claim to have Him in, but then I'm just a servant of His, not his master. Far be it from me to try to put Him in a box!
Anyway, I'm currently stuck on the black box surrounding myoglobin and trying to get a picture of how much of each muscle and heart cell is myoglobin. Seems that myoglobin is the first protein to have it's structure figured out forty or so years ago, but it's surprizing how little i've been able to find out about myoglobin research on the internet.
I'd like to assume it was 70% of the weight of a muscle cell like hemoglobin is in red blood cells because that would imply a far larger oxygen storage capacity in the body than is commonly supposed. It would also explain why people that are fit have less health problems than those who aren't since the ratio of muscle mass to body weight would be higher. Oxygen storage capacity would have far reaching implications as regards muscle exercise before hitting the anaerobic threshhold (ie. the race horse that hits that threshhold last wins!) Not that many horse trainers would listen to me, but then I hold out hope that one day I'll have my own race horse and whip them all in races and take all their money!
Anyway, in the process of trying to find out about myoglobin it was suggested that it's major role is to help transport oxygen from the cell wall to the mitochondria- as if mere diffusion down the pressure gradient wasn't sufficient.
But it seems that oxygen, like carbon dioxide, is mildly hydrophobic and so goes through cell walls easily (doesn't need aquaporin like water does, or active transport like most everything else does) to get into a cell. So I rather expect that the latest research is just more smoke and mirrors by the medical profession to belittle the role of oxygen since they can't make any money on it. I mean, how are they going to make money by simply telling folks how to breathe properly or to drink highly oxygenated water?
As for me "discovering" this great and simple thing, it has been a great discovery to me, but I doubt I'll ever make it into the history books as the discoveror, for surely there have been many before me that already knew what I've recently learned. I always laugh when I read about Mr X discovering something in England or whereever and Mr Y discovering it "independently" in Russia or somewhere else. Seems to me that good news travels just as fast as bad news, contrary to what The Man in Black sang. It's just that it travels in totally different circles and the bad news folks have all the money and control all the media and so can convince far more people that bad news is worthy of attention and good news is not! "Here, look at me, I'm bad news!"- and we're not even talking about the Really Good News of a man named Jesus raising from the dead because there was no sin in him.
Then there are the old prospectors that found the Mother Lode and covered it right back up and headed down the trail with their burro for fear they'd be killed or that exploiting such a find might change their whole lifestyle. No doubt there have been many of those since gold first got people's attention and interest.
Fact is that this "find" is so low grade to those in commerce that it hardly merits mention. If it gets shut down it will be because millions of noncommerce people have read about it and the drug companies and medical profession are beginning to feel the pain.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear you had such an immediate benifit from drinking Penta Water.
Best wishes,
Dave
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Kit Sober
Penta Water vs your own oxygenated water.
The stuff you make yourself is much cheaper and carries more oxygen than the Penta water.
(Dave's instructions are back at December 8, 2004.)
David's doctor in Germany used only 50 ppm, but Dave had Fred set our home brew system to 80 ppm.
With the nice glass bottles I have been using, the oxygen stays in a nice long time.
NOTE: Reno is having a worst-ever series of snowstorms from 12/30/04 to about 1/11/05 or so. 4 feet last week and we've already had over 2 feet today.
I was out there shoveling for 3 hours in freezing cold snow-blowing and didn't even freeze out. I think it's the water I've been drinking
:)-->
Thanks, Dave
:)-->
Kit
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David Anderson
Hello Oldiesman. My experience was different than Krys's because I've enjoyed good health my entire life and also am not very self-observant.
As mentioned somewhere above, I noticed the following morning, after drinking a glass or two the previous day, that my urine was colorless, something that probably hasn't happened since i took Grace Bliss's class "Lessons in Living" back in the 60's.
I made the water primarily because of my cousin Russ, who'd had lymphatic leukemia for five or more years and had fainted and collapsed to the floor on his way back from the water fountain at the Cleveland Clinic while we were waiting for him to be called for chemotherapy.
And so I made it for him but drank it myself in sympathy for him- sort of a laying on of hands kind of thing from a distance.
And so, when I discovered my urine was clear I called him to see if he'd noticed anything after drinking the water. He said his urine was colorless and added that it had been a dark brown due to all the pills he was taking and the chemotherapy. That told me there was indeed something happening but I didn't know what. Most of what I've posted on this thread I've learned since that time. All I really knew was that it was the best tasting water I'd ever consumed. That was in June, 2003.
That summer I drank a lot of it because I was working outside building a walkway along the river here. It seemed that i had lots more energy, but I couldn't prove it.
It was maybe September or October before I noticed that all those joint aches in knees, hips, shoulders and elbows that come with being 60 years old were gone and I could turn my head to a significantly greater degree as well.
But the thing that got my attention the most was discovering that my cigarette consumption had gone down from three packs a day to one pack a day. That made the water a personal profit center, what with the high cost of cigarettes these days!
So now that I've been drinking the water for a year and a half, I can truthfully say that I'm stronger than I've been in perhaps 15 years or more, many of the liver spots on my arms have either gone completely or else faded in color dramatically, my fingernails are almost smoothe again (they were like minature washboards before), I'm much less forgetful, and drinking a glass of it while waiting for the coffee to brew in the morning has me firing on all cylinders before the coffee is finished. And above all else, to go along with various doctors telling me that there was no known medical downside to drinking it, I now have a year and a half of personal evidence that there is no downside to drinking it period. That's a long way from the first batch I made, and drank a glass before taking it over to Russ, figuring there was a possibility it might kill me, even if very slight.
So with all upside and no downside, it's a no-brainer to me. I'd recommend it to anybody, anywhere, at any time.
Hope this helps.
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Kit Sober
Are there instructions for making distilled water on this thread somewhere?
If not, would someone please add this information?
Kit
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David Anderson
Hello Kit. I've noticed myself that my tolerance for cold has increased since drinking the water. My working theory on why this is so is as follows.
As we age everything in our bodies becomes less efficient. The oxygen partial pressure in the blood stream is 90% of max when we are 20, 80% of max by the time we're 40, 70% of max by the time we're 50-60, and 60% of max when we're 70. That means that our normal metabolism follows the same road down since the objective of breathing is to get oxygen to the mitochondria, or "Power Plant", within each cell. The less oxygen delivered, the less food that is metabolized.
As the oxygen delivery trucks suffer more and more roadblocks on the way to the Power Plant, the Power Plant is forced to keep cutting back the number of boilers and turbines in operation and consequently the city that depends on it suffers brown-outs from time to time, with all the attendant damage brown-outs cause. These happen more and more frequently until finally there is a blackout, the Power Plant is shut down and the city dies.
So we do our best to prevent brown-outs by eating right, exercising, maintaining a happy outlook, smiling instead of frowning (which takes far less muscles to do), study and apply the Word of God, and so to a certain extent slow the aging process down. But because the metabolism process isn't what it used to be, even if we eat the same things, they don't get burned as well in those boilers and so we gain weight- which requires more energy just to carry it around. So we tire more easily, don't breathe as well, and the brown-outs increase in frequency.
But lets say we add to the water we drink all the oxygen it will carry. It's like carrying it to the cells in a C5 Cargo plane! It avoids all the roadblocks, traffic jams, etc. and gets right to the Power Plants. But it's jet fuel instead of mere fuel oil or coal, or I should say pure oxygen rather than air. All those little brown-outs start going away, there is plenty of light in the city, people in it are happy again, have more energy, and as everyone knows who ever built a steam power plant, the heat thrown away in the process of running it keeps the body warmer for longer. And so one feels like he's thirty rather than sixty when out in the snow. (Well, maybe forty or fifty instead of thirty!)
I heard today on the news that the recent Tsunami will require six months of food to be supplied by the rest of the world for two million people before their lives can get back to some semblence of normality. One C5 Transport won't do the job. So it is with drinking highly oxygenated water. Those that are twenty, in good shape, and fit as a fiddle probably don't need it. But then again maybe they could well use it anyway- in case of emergency. But if any are not feeling like they're twenty, developing the habit of drinking a third of a gallon a day of the stuff, will insure that the C5 transports keep arriving systematically to all those Power Plants huffing and puffing around the body.
Anyway, that's my take on the matter.
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David Anderson
Hello Kit. The easiest way to make distilled water is to go to Sears and buy a Kenmore Water Purifier. They cost $130-$150. Actually the term "water purifier", while technically correct, is easily confused with lots of porducts that are no more than water filters.
The Kenmore actually is a distiller and is about the size of many coffee pots that sit on the kitchen counter. It makes a little less than a gallon a batch and runs off regular house current. A batch takes 4-6 hours to make and so will make enough in 24 hours to fill a corny keg. It's a perfect solution for use in winter time since the heat generated goes into the room and basically one gets the distilled water for nothing since he has to heat the room anyway.
So all one has to do is fill the first container with tap water, push the button, and come back four hours later to empty the second container that is filled with distilled water. The unit shuts off automatically when all the water is boiled out of the first container.
Of course there are a million different ways to boil water and condense it, but the Sears unit is the cheepest solution I know of.
The interesting thing to me after I got mine was when reading the instruction booklet it said that if the water didn't taste good to shake it up a little and get some air in it. At the time I thought, "Why Sears knows that oxygen in water makes it taste better!" Too bad they didn't take the next step and tell folks to saturate it with oxygen and then it will taste better than any other water on the planet.
Anyway, I don't own any stock in Sears either, in fact I don't particularly like them. But it is a relatively inexpensive, no hastle way to make distilled water. In fact, if a person had one of those oxygen generators that people on oxygen use in their homes, he probably could get close to 70 ppm oxygenated water by just sticking the tube into the distilled water carafe after it was put in the refrigerator a while to cool down to almost freezing. The trick would be to get the tube from the oxygen generator into the refrigerator or else just put ice cubes of distilled water in the carafe and let it bubble for an hour or so with the lid closed to prevent nitrogen from getting back in.
As they say, where there's a will there's a way. Learning enough to become convinced that this is a powerful, simple solution to lots of problems is the only way I know of to develope that will so as to make drinking oxygenated water a habitual process for the rest of ones life. Sure beats health insurance, hospital bills, pills, and an early death.
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David Anderson
Last summer MSN's web page ran a story on some medical research published in the December, 2003 issue of the Journal of Clinical Endrocrinology and Metabolism. It was a story on how to lose five pounds of weight in a year's time simply by drinking an additional 500ml (about 16 oz.) of water a day. The perfectly simple solution for all those weight watchers, diet consumers, pill poppers, home exercizer folks, etc.- just drink an extra large glass of water a day!
It caught my attention because it dealt with water- my favorite subject these days. Unfortunately, the medical journal wanted money before they would let me read the actual research paper (how common of them!) and so I sent an email to the researchers in Germany and they graciously sent me the full text of the research.
Seems seven men and seven women heroically volunteered for such a risky experiment! I mean, drinking an extra glass of water each day must take herculean effort!
Anyway, I went through the paper looking for what water they used, distilled, tap, well, oxygenated, unoxygenated, whatever. To my amazement the water they used was not defined! Imagine that, an article intitled "Water Induced Thermogenesis" and they didn't even define what water they used in the tests!
But their conclusion was striking, namely that "The effect of water on energy expenditure and fuel utilization is a powerful CONFOUNDING (emphasis mine) factor in metabolic studies"
And so, with seven men and seven women volunteers, some instrumentation, and an undefined source of water, these researchers managed to show that all previous research in metabolics was darn near worthless because they didn't factor in the amount of water consumed! A hundred years of research down the drain because everybody forgot to consider what water does to the generation of energy. Hell, any steam power plant engineer could have told them a hundred years ago that running a boiler without water was sure to destroy the boiler.
Anyway, after reading and rereading the paper I replied to the authors that if they think mere water is a confounding influence in metabolic studies, they aught to consider the amount of oxygen in water and see how much it confounds metabolic studies! They replied that they would look into the matter. I hope they do, but am not optimisitic. If it took the medical profession a hundred years just to realize that water helps metabolism, it will probably take a thousand years before they ever get around to funding research into the effect that oxygen in the water has on metabolism.
But at least they got as far as showing that heating the water to body temperature only accounts for 40% of the energy produced by the body in drinking 500ml of water.
Along these lines, one of my notes from research others have done on race horses says that dehydration of just 3% results in a loss of 10% contractile strength and an 8% loss of speed in a distance race. So just neglecting a horses water bucket can lose lots of races for a sloppy trainer, or an overworked trainer who is too cheep to hire any help (they want the $50 a day they get to train a horse all to stay in their pocket if possible), or a greedy trainer that has far too many horses than he or she can adequately train. And that's before they even take the time to read a thread like this one to get some idea that oxygen added to the water might change them from losers to winners and make their horses happy campers in the process. Ah, common sense ain't so common any more it seems!
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Kit Sober
Dave,
Maybe the medical profession doesn't recognize the benefit of oxygenated water, but i for one consider it to have given me a new lease on life.
And I do hope that the medical profession can miraculously incorporate oxygenated water into their treatment of cancer.
I sure would like to see that study.
hopeful and very thankful,
Kit
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David Anderson
I apologize for thinking that Otto Warburg received the Nobel Prize in the 1950's. As can be seen above, it was 1931. The "respratory ferment" in a cell, that Warburg was talking about, that contained iron, was later called myoglobin, the first protein to have it's structure worked out- for which the Nobel Prize was given in the 50's. The structure for some 30,000 proteins has now been determined and I dare say that each and every one of them can be found somewhere on the internet!
Also, one could spend a lifetime on the internet by starting with "Otto Warburg" in a search engine box and going from there. He evidently was offered a second Nobel Prize during the 40's but was not allowed to accept it by Hitler. He was one Jew however that enjoyed Hitler's protection and the Jewish lobby would do well to point that out (though, of course, they won't because it would weaken the stranglehold that holocaust and it's revenue stream has on the world.)
Anyway, to be linked from the time of Mayow (1670) to 1931, with only one name inbetween (Lavoisier) is a rare find in any field of science. And oxygen hadn't even been discovered at the time of Mayow! They knew something was going on, but didn't know what.
What I chuckled about when reading the above is that the field of medicine did not even have it's own category for a Nobel Prize as of 1931. Warburg was first a physiologist (PhD in chemistry) and afterwards an MD. He was a researcher, not a quack physician that poisons you with pills and takes your money. And, interestingly enough, his hobby was equine sports!
From the few articles I did read about him on the internet, it appears that in the 60's he and an associate were about to publish a work that could have obliterated cancer as a cause for concern. But some nefarious persons or group of people prevented that from happening. For example, he evidently knew of a simple "antidote" for excessive smoking that eliminated the need to quit. It eveidently had something to do with the vitamin nicotinic acid. Oh my, the Trial Lawyers of America would have hated that one since they now get something like half the money of each pack of cigarettes sold in America. I'm getting an even worse taste in my mouth for doctors and lawyers than I had- and it was plenty bad to begin with!
Anyway, in deference to Krys, please note that the combustion reaction mentioned in the quote above is the basic reaction in the cell, glucose + oxygen yields CO2 + H2O + energy. The usable enegry produced from the reaction goes to making ATP, which is the "energy carrier" for all the other reactions that Krys is talking about. The rest of the energy goes to such things as heating the body or away from the body vial the lungs and skin. This all happens when a glucose molecule and an oxygen molecule arrive at the mitochondria, the "power plant" of the cell.
When the cell runs out of oxygen, energy is still produced, but only a net of 1 ATP is produced in the anaerobic process for each 18 ATP produced in the aerobic one. And so the trick is to get enough oxygen into the cell so it doesn't run out- or runs out after everyone else in the race has run out first!
Once the anaerobic threshold has been reached damage begins to be done- which is why exercise physiologists advise to push the limit but not go over it (ie. don't exercise longer than your aerobic threshold allows you to, or, in other words, don't reach exhaustion.) For those particular muscle groups that are being exercised, one then doesn't push the max again until three days later- to allow the body to heal and supercompensate for the damage done during the exercise.
This is particularly noticable in weight lifting exercies like bench presses. One starts at a comfortable weight that allows him or her to do three sets of ten reps, with perhaps five minutes inbetween sets. The next two days one does something else and the third day (assuming he or she got the three sets of 10 reps in the previous time) 5# more of weight is added. Like clock work one can add 5# about once a week. Try to build up strength to fast and something pops and you're out of business for a month while major repair goes on.
It's been a lot of years since I did weight lifting exercise, but my guess is that if one's water intake is all water oxygenated to 75 ppm oxygen, the repair, building, and supercompensation proces will probably take only two days instead of three. I wouldn't bet on that at this point, but would bet that it is shorter, even if only half a day or a quarter of a day.
You can read lots of comments about the body not being able to store oxygen, but they are wrong. In the first place, hemoglobin normally only dumps off one of it's four oxygen molecules on it's way around the circuit. The other three are reserve capacity. Storage. Then there is myoglobin in the skeletal muscles and heart muscle that store oxygen for a rainly day- provided the oxygen pressure is high enough in the lymph surrounding each cell. How much storage is there remains to be seen. My guess is that it will hold more than hemoglobin holds for a rainy day. It is a well known fact that in the process of becoming fit, not only does the body lay down additional capillary structures, it also builds more myoglobin. But like an arm in a cast, muscles will atrophy when not used and no oxygen gets to them. Myoglobin will do the same as will the capillary bed.
Thanks to Otto Warburg we know the central role of oxygen in each cell- or we probably would still be in the dark ages regarding the subject. NO doubt lots of doctors are still in the dark ages.
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Goey
I would like to believe in the benefits of oxygenated water and other such things. But in regards to oxygenated water, DA's word salads, pseudoscience and ad hominem attacks againt the naysayers have not convinced me.
It seems to me that if a normal person's blood oxygen is at 97 percent, then there is only room for a 3 percent increase in blood oxygen levels. This is a negligible increase. My guess is that the feel good effect of oxygenated water is simply a palcebo effect - but there is something to be said for placebo effects though.
There seem to be no peer reviewed scientific studies doccumenting the claims made by the oxygenated water folks - this is suspect. The only evidence of any real benefits is anecdotal - also suspect.
The only real study that I can find on this was done at the Univ. of Wisconsin. It found no meaureable benefits in regards to heart rate, blood pressure, blood lactate and oxygen consumption.
Like so many medical and alternative remedies, this seems like just another batch of snake oil that puts money in the pockets of those marketing it.
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krys
Goey:
I could not agree with you more. I also looked for empiracle studies but found none.
I am a special case, since I can not keep my oxygen levels high. BUT those figures 97% and so on are really measurements of that bound to hemoglobin. In order to be used, it must unbind from hemoglobin, enter the cell-bathing solution (aka lymph) and meander into the cell.
Oxygen must first dissolve in the watery cell mucous surrounding the alveoli befor it can diffuse into the blood and hop on the hemoglobin.
Msybe this isn't a situation which encompasses all people. Maybe it does. I'm still looking and evaluating myself.
And I don't think you believe me to be a "flake" so you will have to take me at my word that I did find an energy increase. Also, realize I am oxygen compromised, as I said...so perhaps I notice it because it helps me and not the average guy.
I bought some Penta water to see what happened, and the results are what I've said above on this thread.
In my case, I absolutely know it is NOT a placebo effect. I do respect your words, Goey, because you use them well.
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George Aar
"I absolutely know it is NOT a placebo effect."
Of course there's always "communal reinforcement", "selective thinking", and "self-deception". Not to mention "confirmation bias".
Any one of which makes more sense than the claims of "unclustered water" and such like from the good folks at "Penta"...
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krys
Actully - - since I've been consuming the Penta water...for all I know it could be the unclustered water.........which we know will be effective...it is a Nobel Prize winning award...maybe it's better hydration......
Think what you will. We no longer have to dine from the same can of spaghettios!
I love you anyway!
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David Anderson
Hey Goey, how about posting the link to the study you alude to so we can find out what they said and did't say for ourselves. At least your predecessors in the naysayer camp had the courtesy to do that much.
The 97% number you throw in is meaningless since you didn't tell us what it was 97% of. If it is suposed to mean that the hemoglobin is 97% saturated in the arterial side of the circulatory system, that's one thing. If it's suposed to mean that the red blood cells carry 97% of the oxygen in the circulatory system, that's something else. So which is it?
In the former case, 97% saturated hemoglobin (or SaO2) is almost meaningless since it doesn't tell you if you're in the process of dying because you have so few red blood cells left that you can't possibly furnish the oxygen needs of your body- even though those few cells and their hemoglobin is 97% saturated, or if you're so stinking healthy that your heart only needs to beat one time per minute to carry all the oxygen your body needs and your heart, arteries, veins and lungs are in such good shape that the resistance the heart sees when it does squeeze one stroke's worth of blood out is less than 120/80. In other words, the question "How's your hemoglobin doing" cannot be answered by a simple SaO2 measurement.
I do know, and I believe I mentioned it early on in this thread, that a person can be kept alive without any hemoglobin function whatsoever if the plasma oxygen concentration can be increased to 30ppm in a hyperbaric chamber. It's been done and so is simply a fact, not something that needs statistical analysis or double blind, peer reviewed papers to give it credibility.
Fact is that this thread is much more of a peer reviewed study than any you're likely to find coming out of any medical school- they're lucky to find 10 readers instead of hundreds or thousands. But then Martin Luther's Ninety Five Thesis probably doesn't count either because it wasn't a double blind peer reviewed study. He posted it on the church door at the university of Wittenburg so that everyone, professor and student alike could review it and comment on it as they liked. I dare say that they even gave their names when they commented- how unmodern of them!
But just to put the matter into some kind of perspective, the body is 60% water and 2/3's of that water is inside the cells of the body while only 1/3 is outside the cells. So a 200 pound person consists of 120 pounds of water, 80 pounds (or about 10 gallons- water weighs 8.3 pounds per gallon) are inside all the ten trillion cells of the body, leaving only 40 pounds (or about 5 gallons) to be spread around in the lymph system and the circulatory system.
The lymph system is twice the size of the circulatory system, leaving only 13 pounds of water in the circulatory system. In that 13 pounds of water all the red blood cells swim around and inside them all the hemoglobin molecules swim around.
Fact is that I'm not talking about hemoglobin at all, I'm talking about oxygenated water that one drinks. It bypasses the entire circulatory system and goes right into the lymph system (or about 2/3's of it does) and so one sixteen ounce glass of it can increase the oxygen partial pressure in the entire body, not just the 13 pounds of water in the plasma, by 20%. That's just a simple calculation of 1 pound of water at 75ppm oxygen added to 120 pounds at 3 ppm. Obviously some of it gets used up by the teeth, gums, tongue, etc. on it's way to the small intestine, and gets used up by the freindly bacteria (the aerobic kind) in the intestinal tract, but it appears that most of it gets into the 60% of the body that is water, one way or another. The equine and human tests mentioned in posts above attest to that.
Hey, if you want to do some double blind, placebo controled, cross-over tests with oxygenated water, you're free to do so. You can even post it here for peer review. Hey, maybe you can get your uncle stickey, or your grandfather gooooey, or aunt snotty, to fund your research. You might even make money at it, but don't count on it. There's no serious money to be made in water, expecially with a guy like me around to tell everybody how to make it themselves!
Fortunately I know what Jesus said about those who would not believe what he said even if he rose from the dead to prove it. But, they will, just give it a little time!
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