People aren't praising Mark Gluckin for his buttering his bread Wierwille-style or any other way. They are speaking well of him because of more important reasons: acts of kindness, encouragement, being a friend, acting halfway decent even if he did have more of a respect for Wierwille than most people here do.
And, from what I've heard about the man, correct me if I'm wrong, but Mark didn't treat PFAL like it was a Reissuement of God's Word and play dishonest 'dodge ball' with questions that challenged PFAL ... like you do so blindly and mindlessly.
quote: He used that word once, "sin" in describing the slightest disrespect to his and my man of God. ... Mark attributed all of his good qualities to what he learned of God from Dr, and to think anything different is a slap in his face!
I tell you what guy. You tell this, using the EXACT same words, to all those who have been abused directly by VPW, .... and live to tell of it, then maybe I'll listen to you. ... And then again, maybe not, as his malvalent abuses and sadistic manipulation of the Bible to exercise control over people occured anyway.
"... 'sin' in describing the slightest disrespect to his and my man of God."
So how far am I on the 'sin' category, hmmm? (Probably the ONLY time you ever entertained that word. -->) Have I reached 'born of the seed of the serpent' yet?
would be thrown out of his funeral service if Mark could effect it."
No Mark would do as he always did in life, love them all the more.
As far as the rest of this thread you folks should be ashamed of yourselves. Mike should not be chastised for showing his regard for a man he respected.
Perhaps this is the wrong place to slam Mike for his differences with you. I don't care that you think he deserves it. It was poor taste and disrespectful to the deceased, particularly if Mark Gluckin had a relationship with Mike.
Mark told me a few years ago that that he had listened to a recent year Dale Sides tape teaching where Dr was slamed bad. When it got to the intense parts Mark told me he turned off the tape and asked God for forgiveness for the sin of tolerating such garbage and thanked Him for restored fellowship.
I think, this is MY opinion, that Mark would be insulted to see his name and life praised by many anti-VPW posters here.
It is intense HIPOCRISY to laud Mark and stand against everything he stood for!
As far as being thrown out of his funeral, that is admitedly hyperbole on my part. Mark would not tolerate, though, most posters to continue in any rants against Dr in his presence. THAT I know for sure.
I've discussed this type of hipocracy with another prominent poster here long ago, in the aftermath of Donnie Fugit's death and all the phoney shmoozing up to him we had to hold our noses for. In fact, it was he that elucidated it for me. I'm trying to locate him for his input.
Ahh not quite. Its one thing to acknowledge that Mark has learned a lot of good things from PFAL, VPW, TWI and all. But Smikeol takes it farther than that. He treats any criticism and making known of VPW's abuses as "'sin' in describing the slightest disrespect to his and my man of God." and tries to portray Mark as thinking the same thing. Look at what the man wrote, dude.
If there is any inappropriateness here, it is done by SMikeol in relating/associating Mark's respect for VPW with Mike's idol worship, and chastising those of us here at GS for daring to cross it!
Smikeol,
There are many of those here who have even known Mark better than you did, that would show no qualms at illustrating VPW for the abuser that he was, and would (I would dare to bet) not be one iota apologetic for it.
It has been my observation that many at GSC have two standards when it comes to holding people accountable while they were a part of TWI.
It pretty much depends on who they were and if they were perceived as "loving", "a wonderful person", "loved God", "just helped me so much", or similar attributes.
Most folks here at the cafe believe VPW stole much of what he taught in PFAL from others, used his position to intimidate others, and was a sexual preditor. It would be hard to get many here to argue these points. In fact most have condemned the current trustees for covering up VP's and LCM's similiar activities. They also point out and hold accountable other leadership who knew what was going on by either aiding, covereding up, or ignoring the facts and turning a blind eye.
Yet it is inconceivable to me the original trustees and their wive's did not know what VPW was doing in the motor coach with all those woman. But they are spoken of here with fond tenderness. Most of the time posters use terms of endearmont to describe their relationship with them.
A cover up is a cover up no matter if we think well of the person or not.
In the same vain, anyone who today expressed at GSC the same view of VPW as Mark apparently has, would be rousted out and challenged...just ask Mike.
In another thread recently the author was questioning how anyone today could stay and support TWI with all that has been exposed about it in recent years.
I think it is probably human nature to cut some people slack and not others. An extreme example is Jesse James and Bonnie and Clyde. All three were cold blooded murderers yet we have elevated them to legendary mythical status. On the other hand the only thing elevated with Scott Peterson is people's hatred of him.
I also knew Mark, quite well. I don't think he would want this thread to even exist. While I defend you and see the respect you have for his life I don't think he would see this as an appropriate epitaph to his life. I don't think he would appreciate any comments about people who also loved Mark, people he loved in return. This is the wrong place for such commentary.
He hated the damage left by division, in any form, and last twelve years of his life were spent trying repair that as much as possible.
quote: He hated the damage left by division, in any form, and last twelve years of his life were spent trying repair that as much as possible.
Dizzydog,
How about the damage left by silence due to fear/loyalty by those who knew better and yet looked the other way while the crap was going on and after, huh? ... Tell me what 'the Word' says about THAT?
Stayed,
quote: In the same vain, anyone who today expressed at GSC the same view of VPW as Mark apparently has, would be rousted out and challenged...just ask Mike.
And would that be any worse than those who would not bring up the challenge, usually for the reasons noted above? Perhaps it could be said of them that they 'stayed too long', ... ya think?
I made the decision a long time ago to stop posting here. The reason why? These threads wind up being endless diatribes of little relevance.
Here is a perfect example. Mark Gluckin was a good man who loved God and loved God's people. Yet he has barely drawn his last breath and already the bickering starts. A nice thread to show the man some honor and regard has to turn into all of this, it's vulgar and is a disgusting way to remember him.
I didn't say I 'knew the first thing about you'. So put your straw man away.
You haven't answered my question about what the Word says about the damage left by silence. And it is a legit question, regardless of whether or not it portrays VPW and Co. in a favorable light.
And is it really hypocrisy to give Mark honor for his life and still slam VPW, hmmm? Must we, in honor to Mark, silence the just complaints against VPW, many of which were silent for so many years due to blind and misplaced loyalty and/or fear of committing 'sin' in speaking out against the 'Man of God'? Tell me that please.
And would that be any worse than those who would not bring up the challenge, usually for the reasons noted above? Perhaps it could be said of them that they 'stayed too long', ... ya think?
________________________________________________
I am not arguing they should not be challenged....on the contrary they should be! Plagurism, using people, ruining lives, etc should be exposed. Those are some of the reasons I hang out here. Hopefully I can help others that it also has happened to.
My point in this matter is we hold some to different standards than others.
If we liked one person for some reason, like the person loved us, was of assistance us, or we thought they were one hell of a person and really cool, we will cut them some slack in their acceptance of VPW, et al. Praises will abound and the person's life presented as that of a wonderul human being.
On the other hand if someone comes in here that we do not know, and if that person supports VPW, et al,......well suffice it so say they had better be pretty thick skinned.
And I think it is just human nature to do this. Many of our decisions are really quite subjective.
Bill Clinton goes into Kosovo, the Republican's oppose him, and the Democrats back him. George H Bush goes into Kuwait, the Democrats oppose him, and the Republicans back him.
This is inappropriate, period. A man has died. If this is hypocrisy, then so be it. It is quite amazing that you take an opportunity when I am preoccupied to sneak this in.
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GarthP2000
Smikeol,
People aren't praising Mark Gluckin for his buttering his bread Wierwille-style or any other way. They are speaking well of him because of more important reasons: acts of kindness, encouragement, being a friend, acting halfway decent even if he did have more of a respect for Wierwille than most people here do.
And, from what I've heard about the man, correct me if I'm wrong, but Mark didn't treat PFAL like it was a Reissuement of God's Word and play dishonest 'dodge ball' with questions that challenged PFAL ... like you do so blindly and mindlessly.
And if he did, then thats his waste of his life!
So grow up!
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Cindy!
This thread is in extremely bad taste.
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Mike
There's nothing ripping apart of Mark's life in my posts. He stood exactly where I described him. I'm telling you all, Mark loved Dr more than I did.
I think it's bad taste to shmooze up to a superstar to get some of the glory, and yet stand agaist the heart of that same person.
We did not agree of the writings, but Mark and I agree that it is sin to say the things that are posted here in hate toward Dr.
He used that word once, "sin" in describing the slightest disrespect to his and my man of God.
I'm sure Barbara and his kids feel the same.
How many people posting here here so far actually knew them as friends?
Mark attributed all of his good qualities to what he learned of God from Dr, and to think anything different is a slap in his face!
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GarthP2000
I tell you what guy. You tell this, using the EXACT same words, to all those who have been abused directly by VPW, .... and live to tell of it, then maybe I'll listen to you. ... And then again, maybe not, as his malvalent abuses and sadistic manipulation of the Bible to exercise control over people occured anyway.
"... 'sin' in describing the slightest disrespect to his and my man of God."
So how far am I on the 'sin' category, hmmm? (Probably the ONLY time you ever entertained that word.
-->) Have I reached 'born of the seed of the serpent' yet?
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Raf
This is utterly inappropriate.
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dizzydog
Mike you wrote:
"Many, and maybe even MOST posters here,
.
if Mark had ever read their posts,
.
would be thrown out of his funeral service if Mark could effect it."
No Mark would do as he always did in life, love them all the more.
As far as the rest of this thread you folks should be ashamed of yourselves. Mike should not be chastised for showing his regard for a man he respected.
Perhaps this is the wrong place to slam Mike for his differences with you. I don't care that you think he deserves it. It was poor taste and disrespectful to the deceased, particularly if Mark Gluckin had a relationship with Mike.
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Mike
Thanks Diz,
Mark told me a few years ago that that he had listened to a recent year Dale Sides tape teaching where Dr was slamed bad. When it got to the intense parts Mark told me he turned off the tape and asked God for forgiveness for the sin of tolerating such garbage and thanked Him for restored fellowship.
I think, this is MY opinion, that Mark would be insulted to see his name and life praised by many anti-VPW posters here.
It is intense HIPOCRISY to laud Mark and stand against everything he stood for!
As far as being thrown out of his funeral, that is admitedly hyperbole on my part. Mark would not tolerate, though, most posters to continue in any rants against Dr in his presence. THAT I know for sure.
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dizzydog
You're right, he wouldn't.
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Mike
Raf,
You can thank WordWolf for starting the inappropriateness.
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Mike
Diz,
Thanks again.
I've discussed this type of hipocracy with another prominent poster here long ago, in the aftermath of Donnie Fugit's death and all the phoney shmoozing up to him we had to hold our noses for. In fact, it was he that elucidated it for me. I'm trying to locate him for his input.
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GarthP2000
Dizzydog,
Ahh not quite. Its one thing to acknowledge that Mark has learned a lot of good things from PFAL, VPW, TWI and all. But Smikeol takes it farther than that. He treats any criticism and making known of VPW's abuses as "'sin' in describing the slightest disrespect to his and my man of God." and tries to portray Mark as thinking the same thing. Look at what the man wrote, dude.
If there is any inappropriateness here, it is done by SMikeol in relating/associating Mark's respect for VPW with Mike's idol worship, and chastising those of us here at GS for daring to cross it!
Smikeol,
There are many of those here who have even known Mark better than you did, that would show no qualms at illustrating VPW for the abuser that he was, and would (I would dare to bet) not be one iota apologetic for it.
And they would get my respect!
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Stayed Too Long
It has been my observation that many at GSC have two standards when it comes to holding people accountable while they were a part of TWI.
It pretty much depends on who they were and if they were perceived as "loving", "a wonderful person", "loved God", "just helped me so much", or similar attributes.
Most folks here at the cafe believe VPW stole much of what he taught in PFAL from others, used his position to intimidate others, and was a sexual preditor. It would be hard to get many here to argue these points. In fact most have condemned the current trustees for covering up VP's and LCM's similiar activities. They also point out and hold accountable other leadership who knew what was going on by either aiding, covereding up, or ignoring the facts and turning a blind eye.
Yet it is inconceivable to me the original trustees and their wive's did not know what VPW was doing in the motor coach with all those woman. But they are spoken of here with fond tenderness. Most of the time posters use terms of endearmont to describe their relationship with them.
A cover up is a cover up no matter if we think well of the person or not.
In the same vain, anyone who today expressed at GSC the same view of VPW as Mark apparently has, would be rousted out and challenged...just ask Mike.
In another thread recently the author was questioning how anyone today could stay and support TWI with all that has been exposed about it in recent years.
I think it is probably human nature to cut some people slack and not others. An extreme example is Jesse James and Bonnie and Clyde. All three were cold blooded murderers yet we have elevated them to legendary mythical status. On the other hand the only thing elevated with Scott Peterson is people's hatred of him.
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dizzydog
Don't go overboard here Mike.
I also knew Mark, quite well. I don't think he would want this thread to even exist. While I defend you and see the respect you have for his life I don't think he would see this as an appropriate epitaph to his life. I don't think he would appreciate any comments about people who also loved Mark, people he loved in return. This is the wrong place for such commentary.
He hated the damage left by division, in any form, and last twelve years of his life were spent trying repair that as much as possible.
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GarthP2000
Dizzydog,
How about the damage left by silence due to fear/loyalty by those who knew better and yet looked the other way while the crap was going on and after, huh? ... Tell me what 'the Word' says about THAT?
Stayed,
And would that be any worse than those who would not bring up the challenge, usually for the reasons noted above? Perhaps it could be said of them that they 'stayed too long', ... ya think?
:-
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dizzydog
I made the decision a long time ago to stop posting here. The reason why? These threads wind up being endless diatribes of little relevance.
Here is a perfect example. Mark Gluckin was a good man who loved God and loved God's people. Yet he has barely drawn his last breath and already the bickering starts. A nice thread to show the man some honor and regard has to turn into all of this, it's vulgar and is a disgusting way to remember him.
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dizzydog
Garth,
I had some choice words for you but I ain't gonna take the bait. You don't know the first thing about me so put your flame thrower away.
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GarthP2000
Diz,
I didn't say I 'knew the first thing about you'. So put your straw man away.
You haven't answered my question about what the Word says about the damage left by silence. And it is a legit question, regardless of whether or not it portrays VPW and Co. in a favorable light.
And is it really hypocrisy to give Mark honor for his life and still slam VPW, hmmm? Must we, in honor to Mark, silence the just complaints against VPW, many of which were silent for so many years due to blind and misplaced loyalty and/or fear of committing 'sin' in speaking out against the 'Man of God'? Tell me that please.
If you can.
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Stayed Too Long
GarthP quote:
________________________________________________
And would that be any worse than those who would not bring up the challenge, usually for the reasons noted above? Perhaps it could be said of them that they 'stayed too long', ... ya think?
________________________________________________
I am not arguing they should not be challenged....on the contrary they should be! Plagurism, using people, ruining lives, etc should be exposed. Those are some of the reasons I hang out here. Hopefully I can help others that it also has happened to.
My point in this matter is we hold some to different standards than others.
If we liked one person for some reason, like the person loved us, was of assistance us, or we thought they were one hell of a person and really cool, we will cut them some slack in their acceptance of VPW, et al. Praises will abound and the person's life presented as that of a wonderul human being.
On the other hand if someone comes in here that we do not know, and if that person supports VPW, et al,......well suffice it so say they had better be pretty thick skinned.
And I think it is just human nature to do this. Many of our decisions are really quite subjective.
Bill Clinton goes into Kosovo, the Republican's oppose him, and the Democrats back him. George H Bush goes into Kuwait, the Democrats oppose him, and the Republicans back him.
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dizzydog
garth
whatever...
flame on
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pawtucket
Mike,
This is inappropriate, period. A man has died. If this is hypocrisy, then so be it. It is quite amazing that you take an opportunity when I am preoccupied to sneak this in.
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