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Is the draft going to came back?


wyteduv58
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I can totally relate to how wyteduv58 feels about sending her son off to a sick country to be killed in a war that is not being fought efficiently. icon_frown.gif:(-->

Who would want to?

This war is dragging on painfully.

We could have given Fallusha a 24 hour warning to the civilians, then napalmed it, which would have flatenend it.

End of problem in Falusha. icon_biggrin.gif:D-->

But we have OUR soldiers PROTECTING a MUSLIM place of worship while the TERORISTS use the "place of worship" to pick off our boys!!!!!

Why?? icon_confused.gif:confused:-->

I am sickened, as a War Veteran, so see soldiers being popped off, civilans being beheaded, and burned and hanged, then some

***-wipe press being alowed to be with the soldiers after a fight to go in and get the Muslim TERRORSTS, then having to shoot one, only to be attacked by the NAZI American press.

We are having our hands tied.

How is the American soldier supposed to DO HIS JOB if he fears a court martial because some liberal NAzi press twists this and fans the fire of anit-american sentiment??

Why are we didly dadling over there?????

And yes I am sure recrutment is down because of this.

Who wants to go over there to be picked off ?when all it takes is some anti personnel and anti tank etc to flatten a terrorist-hiding city after the civilians have been told to get out.

Geesh.

USE the stuff we used during the FIRST Desert Storm, when we flattenend buildings etc..... icon_razz.gif:P-->

Our hands are tied becuse we musnt make the Muslim Terrorists angry now can we?? icon_mad.gif

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TheSongRemainsTheSame:

"There are no exemptions even if the best or worst are sent to war. All are involved. I am not just hanging around my home oh hum, when i know our elite and weekend warriors are dying. If one is joining the military, that one is not joining a college education or retirement if ya make it alive. Sorry about the truckers, but they drive on a freeway. Surely you know that Galen."

I have no idea how I managed to survive 20+ years. Over the years I have had so many freinds die or become crippled, I have been terribly fortunate. Yes I have served in a combat theater. However I should point out that every shipmate or friend of mine that died or was seriously crippled was done outside of combat. We lived and worked in extremely hazardous environments. Dealing with: ship-board fires, hydraulic ruptures [3000lb hydraulic oil fires are nasty], toxic torpedeo fuels, Cadnium in the air, radiation, asbestos, floodings, etc.

Men are harmed and die while dealing with each of these, and for those who live the accumulations of all these give systemic health issues that can not be diagnosed.

From my observations, our worst enemy is young hormone-filled stupidity. Most men that I have seen maimed were doing something stupid, not following safety-procedures, or showing off their bravery. Obviously this does not address those whose career fields kept them in combat zones long term [my stint in Kosovo-theater was very short-term it was only 2 years].

I still think that over-all someone who chose a career in truck driving would likely face significantly higher mortality. During: WWI, WWII, and Korea, huge numbers of vets died or were maimed.

By the time we consider Vietnam:

9.7% of that generation served in the military; a total of 9,087,000 served from 64-75, of which 3,403,00 served in theater.

That means 37% of those vets from that era served in combat theater.

0.01% of that entire military [58,202 / 9.08million] have died [either then or now from service related injuries, both from hostile action and from non-hostile]. Or it could be stated that 0.02% of those who served in theater have died [58thousand / 3.4million]. 61% of the those who died were under 21years old.

0.3% of the military was wounded [303thousand / 9.08million].

25% of those wounded were draftees, meaning 75% of the wounded were volunteers.

Only 38% of draftees ever served in theater.

More recently:

El Salvador in '75,

Lebanon '83-87,

Grenada '83,

Libya '86,

Persian Gulf '87-90, and '95-now,

Panama '89-90,

Somalia '92-95,

Haiti '94-95,

Bosnia '96- now,

Kosovo '99-now,

[good gawd the list is long, please forgive me anyone who has served in any of the others that I have failed to list, wow that list is long I got tired of typing it.]

Yes people have served, and continue to serve honourably, but it is not as if a majority of those serving will die their first hitch. Very few die in these combats [compared to the numbers of servicemembers who serve]. Those that I have served with who have died, died from over the duration of my 20+ year career.

Had I driven a truck those same years, would I have seen more death? It is likely.

Truck drivers dont have good retirement plans, they dont have good medical coverage. I am not saying that truck-drivers are the most honourable profession, I am just picking that one out of the entire field of hard-working middle-class professions of Americans striving to make themselves better. They serve the needs of our nation, they put their lives on the line for us to have fresh butter in our supermarkets.

All things considered, when comparing all the various professions that exist today. I dont think that serving a career in the military is such a bad option. It is certainly not the most dangerous thing that you could do.

"Thank you Galen for your service for freedom. I do mean that with all mine heart."

Thank you.

"How is your son Sir?"

He is home now. He had bad experiences with tear-gas and dysentary in Bootcamp, while recuperating from he 'developed' a heart murmer. While in AIT [which he loved] his physical abilitys deteriated and his heart failed him numerous times. Eventually after serving for eight months he was given an Honourable dis-charge for medical conditions. The VA will not look at him, as his service was too short. We could argue the case of him being healthy when he went in, and dis-abled now; but he does not desire to 'focus' on his condition.

He is working full-time at McDonalds, attending college to finish his degree as a computer geek.

By the way, I got those numbers from the VFW website.

PS. my son is sitting here with me and expresses that there is no difference between reservists-called-up and active duty who serve normally.

Bless you.

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It's simply amazing the number of folks who won't take the word of a man who's been there over the fantasies they've already chosen to believe without question.

I don't see a single person here who is more qualified to talk about today's military than Galen.

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It is really a shame that so many people have such a negative view of the military as a career possibility. There are so many opportunities for young people who don't have money for college, or don't have a clear direction they want to go in.

If they enlist, they can learn a whole lot while maturing into young adulthood and have the potential to experience things they could not otherwise do. My husband spent his enlistment in the Marines in various places, Cuba, Italy, Egypt, Spain...as an ordinance man loading airplanes on an aircraft carrier. It was not easy work, not free from danger (loading bombs under running aircraft while on a rolling boat!), but he was able to enjoy some off time in "exotic" locations.

An agemate of mine was drafted and after their extensive testing, they discovered he had an unusually unique ability in the foreign languages eventhough he only studied 2 years of French in high school. They trained him in Vietnamese and he spent the majority of his first hitch translating intercepted messages while he himself was in safe terriroty. When he left after his second hitch, he was fluent in Japanese and functional in one of the Chinese dialects. He now works as an interpreter earning a substantial salary in the business world.

I often wished some of my students would have considered enlisting, not for life necessarily, but all they would learn, at no cost to themselves is certainly a plus! Additionally those inner city kids didn't have a "studious" bone in their bodies, but within the structured framework of the military, I know they would have gotten a better start in their young lives.

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krysilis:

"It is really a shame that so many people have such a negative view of the military as a career possibility."

True. I know it does make me sound like a recruiter. though I am not a recruiter, nor have I ever been a recruiter.

"There are so many opportunities for young people who don't have money for college, or don't have a clear direction they want to go in."

I agree; the opportunity to go somewhere new, to see new sights, to travel, to meet other people from other cultures, to learn and gain experience in a career field, to earn a degree or two, to earn a good income and be able to invest, etc.

"If they enlist, they can learn a whole lot while maturing into young adulthood and have the potential to experience things they could not otherwise do. My husband spent his enlistment in the Marines in various places, Cuba, Italy, Egypt, Spain...as an ordinance man loading airplanes on an aircraft carrier. It was not easy work, not free from danger (loading bombs under running aircraft while on a rolling boat!), but he was able to enjoy some off time in "exotic" locations."

I am glad that he enjoyed himself.

"An agemate of mine was drafted and after their extensive testing, they discovered he had an unusually unique ability in the foreign languages eventhough he only studied 2 years of French in high school. They trained him in Vietnamese and he spent the majority of his first hitch translating intercepted messages while he himself was in safe terriroty. When he left after his second hitch, he was fluent in Japanese and functional in one of the Chinese dialects. He now works as an interpreter earning a substantial salary in the business world."

Opened his eyes to a completely different type of career field. . . .

"I often wished some of my students would have considered enlisting, not for life necessarily, but all they would learn, at no cost to themselves is certainly a plus! Additionally those inner city kids didn't have a "studious" bone in their bodies, but within the structured framework of the military, I know they would have gotten a better start in their young lives."

Also everyone focuses on 'college money' from the various GI bills. Also while on active duty if you find you have any time on your hands, college courses are available. Using 'Tuition Assistance' the military will pay a portion of the costs [from 75% to 100%, lower paygrades get it for free, higher paygrades pay 25% of their tuition]. Also C.L.E.P. tests are available for free every week. Any topic that you have studied, or if you feel you know you can test on and recieve college credits for. C.L.E.P. testing for active-duty personnel is free. I got my degree mostly while on active duty.

The Department of Labor has an apprenticeship program. The Federal government has a listing of jobs and exactly what it is to be any one of those defined job titles. Under their program anyone who receives suffiecent training and works within a pre-defined job title can qualify for a 'Journeyman card' certifying you as that job title. Since I completed the military's Police Academy and worked as a police officer, I qualified to enter the DOL apprenticeship program. After documenting 5000 man hours working in dozens of categorys of Law Enforcement duties, I now hold a Certificate of completion of apprenticeship for the occupation "Police officer-1". Which would qualify me as a badge for hire, if I desired to work in about half the Police Departments around the Nation, starting off as a 6 year veteran of the force. When I returned stateside I did join the Police Officer's Union {FOP chapter 6 of New London county, Ct].

I am not saying this to "blow me own horn'. Rather to humbly submit that during a military career a servicemember can: earn their B.S. degree, join a profession and be recognized for it, make investments suffcient to build a respectable portfolio , all while seeing the World and growing up, and still get a pension when they turn 38 years old. .

Bless you.

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quote:
Zixar

posted November 29, 2004 10:55

It's simply amazing the number of folks who won't take the word of a man who's been there over the fantasies they've already chosen to believe without question.

I don't see a single person here who is more qualified to talk about today's military than Galen.


Zixar,

That is true.

I have seen my friends come home in body body bags, friends maimed, friends ptsd from the Viet Fkn Nam War. I turned 18 when that undeclared war was declared over. I supported those SOLDIERS, but not the war. I never burned a flag or my draft card or never spit on them or called them baby killers etc... I was ready to go, but did not want to. The draft was over. I was relieved.

Galen is a Soldier I totally respect, hence I know I can confront, speak, and be rest assured his service and his sons service that I can speak from my non military experience but yet know what military service is to the point my Grand father served as Colnel in WWII and my Dad served as a Master Sargent in the Korean War.

Rok On Galen!!!

Songster

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quote:
Originally posted by Zixar:

It's simply amazing the number of folks who won't take the word of a man who's been there over the fantasies they've already chosen to believe without question.

I don't see a single person here who is more qualified to talk about today's military than Galen.


I have taken the word of people who have been over there. Galen has served his country, which nobody questions or has made an issue other than you. However, I have talked to people that have served in Iraq within the past two years. Galen has not, which is no slight against him other than the one that you are trying to invent to pick a fight.

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Galen & Son,

Thank you both!!!

May your bond always be to da bone marrow

When my Grandfather died

When my Father died

They both died here upon this land

And both served in foreign wars

And both returned alive

And both received military honor 'pon death this soil

I was born

Then my two daughters were born

Then my two grandsons were born

I do not know what to say concerning draft war blood death

But I can say

FREEDOM!!!

i think i can say that

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quote:
Steve!

posted November 24, 2004 10:10

And the draft bill was being sponsored be dimmiecrats.

If Bush had wanted a draft, he could have gotten one passed in his first term.

It ain't gonna happen.


You seem so sure of this Steve!?

ever heard of Viet Fkn Nam?

of course you have.

I am glad you said ... "It ain't gonna happen." Rather than saying ..."It ain't gonna NEVER HAPPEN!"

You cover your *** well!

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Buffalo Springfield

There's something happening here

What it is ain't exactly clear

There's a man with a gun over there

Telling me I got to beware

I think it's time we stop

Children, what's that sound?

Everybody look what's going down

There's battle lines being drawn

Nobody's right if everybody's wrong

Young people speaking their minds

Getting so much resistance from behind

It's time we stop

Hey, what's that sound?

Everybody look what's going down

What a field-day for the heat / (Oooh)

A thousand people in the street / (Oooh)

Singing songs and carrying signs / (Oooh)

Mostly say, hooray for our side / (Oooh)

It's time we stop

Hey, what's that sound?

Everybody look what's going down

Paranoia strikes deep

Into your life it will creep

It starts when you're always afraid

You step out of line

The man come and take you away

We better stop

Hey, what's that sound?

Everybody look what's going down

Stop

Hey, what's that sound?

Everybody look what's going down

Stop

Now, what's that sound?

Everybody look what's going down

Stop

Children, what's that sound?

Everybody look what's going down

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Crosby Stills Nash Young - Four Dead In Ohio Lyrics

Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin'.

We're finally on our own.

This summer I hear the drummin'.

Four dead in Ohio.

Gotta get down to it.

Soldiers are gunning us down.

Should have been done long ago.

What if you knew her and

Found her dead on the ground?

How can you run when you know?

Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.

Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.

Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.

Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.

Gotta get down to it.

Soldiers are cutting us down.

Should have been done long ago.

What if you knew her and

Found her dead on the ground?

How can you run when you know?

Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin'.

We're finally on our own.

This summer I hear the drummin'.

Four dead in Ohio.

Four dead in Ohio.

Four dead in Ohio.

Four dead in Ohio.

Four dead in Ohio.

Four dead in Ohio.

Four dead in Ohio.

Four dead in Ohio.

Four dead in Ohio.

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quote:
Originally posted by TheSongRemainsTheSame:

quote:
Steve!

posted November 24, 2004 10:10

And the draft bill was being sponsored be dimmiecrats.

If Bush had wanted a draft, he could have gotten one passed in his first term.

It ain't gonna happen.


_You seem so sure of this Steve!?

ever heard of Viet Fkn Nam?

of course you have.

I am glad you said ... "It ain't gonna happen." Rather than saying ..."It ain't gonna NEVER HAPPEN!"

You cover your *** well!_


Look up 108th Congress, HR 163.

The bill was introduced on 1/7/2003 by Charles Rangel (D-NY). It had 14 co-sponsors:

Rep Abercrombie, Neil [D-HI]

Rep Brown, Corrine [D=FL]

Rep Christensen, Donna M. [D-VI]

Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy [D-MO]

Rep Conyers, John, Jr. [D-MI]

Rep Cummings, Elijah E. [D-MD]

Rep Hastings, Alcee L. [D-FL]

Rep Jackson, Jesse L., Jr. [D-IL]

Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila [D-TX]

Rep Lewis, John [D-GA]

Rep McDermott, Jim [D-WA]

Rep Moran, James P. [D-VA]

Rep Stark, Fortney Pete [D-CA]

Rep Velazquez, Nydia M. [D-NY]

Rep Norton, Eleanor Holmes [D-DC] (withdrawn - 6/21/2004)

It was defeated on 10/5/2004 in roll call vote 494.

There were 2 votes in favor and 402 votes opposed. Just as a matter of interest, Rep. Murtha and Rep. Stark ( a co-sponsor) were the yea votes. Rep. Brown did not vote. The remainder of the sponsors (including Rangel, who sponsored the bill), voted against the bill.

Hmmmm, imagine that...the sponsor of the bill voting against it.

So, unless it gets re-introduced in the 109th Congress, it ain't gonna happen.

Oh, and btw, one other thing...the previous draft started during WWII and ended after Vietnam. So, Vietnam did not start the draft.

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TheSongRemainsTheSame:

"wyteduv58,

has there ever been a time in your life that there was no war?"

Do you mean a time of no war anywhere in the World?, or just a time when America was not agressive with anyone.

For no war anywhere in the World, you would need to find a really good historian.

As for America, was there a time after fighting indians on the reservations and before WWI maybe?

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Just a quick note, then I'm gonna drop it.

The war in Iraq was a mistake from the git-go. Saddam Hussein was a threat, perhaps, but never the threat that Dubya made him out to be. Dubya wanted this war from the minute he assumed the office of Commander-in-Chief.

If you're going to fight a war on terrorism, go after the terrorists. Of the 19 people who commandeered the planes on 9-11, not ONE of them was Iraqi. Not ONE of them was Palestinian. 17 were Yemeni, and the other two were from Saudi Arabia. So much for our allies...

In order to get to the heart of the war on terror, an understanding of the conflict between Israel and Palestine is not optional. It is required.

We, the U. S., support Israel to the tune of around 3 billion dollars a year.

Now, look at what happens when there is a terrorist attack somewhere in Israel by a terrorist who blows him or herself up, taking out all those in the immediate area. Israel responds with fighter-bombers, helicopter gunships, armored personnel carriers, tanks, and state of the art weaponry for its ground troops. What do the Palestinians have?

Nothing.

Palestinans are treated as sub-human by the Israeli government. Are now, have always been. Frankly, you might be better off as a former slave in the period immediately following the American "Civil" war.

Palestinians have nothing left to lose. Nothing. That's why some of them wrap themselves in dynamite.

And the entire Arab community has focused on the plight of the Palestinians. This is one complaint echoed, perhaps more by implication than statement, by no other than Osama bin Laden.

If we want to keep ....ing off the terrorist elements in the Arabic world, then the current course of action is fine. However, in order to start to bring these elements into check, and eventually overcome them, then the administration has to take an entirely different, and even radical, approach, to our stance with the state if Israel.

There can be no more "Israel, right or wrong." Dubya has to yank hard on Ariel Sharon's collar and tell him, "Look, dip****, this is the way it's gonna be. And you will like it."

With the threat of losing 3 billion dollars a year, Sharon will listen to this thread of logic.

Ordilarily, I'm optimistic. On this subject, however, I'm not. And I know I will get a lot of crap for saying what I've said.

By the way, I served during Vietnam. (1968-1974) I have a DD-214 and an Honorable Discharge to prove it, in the event anyone has the balls to question my patriotism.

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quote:
Originally posted by Zixar:

And that makes YOU more qualified? It might make THEM more qualified, but hardly you.


As usual, you are being completely irrational. If you first said that we should listen Galen because he is a veteran, but that I am wrong because I listened to people who have served in this Iraq war, you are being logically inconsistent. You simply want us to listen to people that you agree with, and ignore those who you do not agree with. That's simply dishonest and disrespectful to the people who have served or are serving as you try to use them as pawns in a website argument.

quote:
Originally posted by Zixar:

If ego were fuel oil, you could push a battleship around the world with yours. Twice.


I don't think such a childish statement deserves a response. You're too old for this.

quote:
Originally posted by Zixar:

Galen knows what he's talking about. You don't.


What qualifies you then? When have you been in Iraq? What makes you an expert on the military? I have no question that Galen knows a lot about the military, and has much more practical experience than I do. I have never questioned his experience, I simply disagree with his statement about recruiters still pulling in record numbers of people and turning lots of people away. In any case, I'm sure Galen and I disagree and I respect that. He's chosen not to be whiny and try to pick a fight, which I also respect. If he wants to argue with me he is more than capable and willing to do so, and doesn't need you or anyone else here to "defend" him. He's fully capable of having his own discussions and using his own fingers to type what he wants to say. Your tactic of trying to put me in an argument with Galen will not work.

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Daryl,

I agree with you on the Iraq affair. Despite the evident potential to seriously alter the balance of power in the area, it has been so profoundly mismanaged, I have serious doubts that any good can be resurrected out of it.

Having said that, I actually see some positive trends to since Arafat's death. To the best that I can see, there have been no suicide bombings since his death on Nov 11th. The last bombing I was able to find was on Nov 1st in a Tel Aviv market. The turnover of the Gaza strip, delayed for a long period, appear to be back on track. So there are apparently some positive signs. Not enough for me to become actually optimistic on the issue, but, it is good to see some non-bad news every once in a while.

As to the draft (I don't mean to perpetuate a complete derail), no matter how bad the quagmire, you need to consider the following;

- where are the training facilities to handle the influx of troops?

- where is the equipment that these troops are going to be issued and operate?

- Although an MOS 11B grunt infantryman can be given rudimentary training in about 6 months, the other MOS' that are needed to provide support to the 11B's take over a year to get fully up to speed.

- Has congress authorized a force structure increase to provide the units within which these people are going to operate?

- Where, exactly, are the seasoned NCOs that will lead the conscript troops going to come from (don't say "Stop-Loss," "Stop-Loss" just allows existing units to maintain). Although corporals can be built in a couple of years, Staff Sergeants, Sergeants First Class, and Sergeants Major take considerably longer. The army of today cannot function without well seasoned NCOs.

Those who are forwarding the canard (deception) that a draft is imminent need to look at these other signs. If you see that those other signs (increase in force structure, major increases in equipment procurement to fill the TA for those units, etc.) are being acted on in Congress, then you might have cause for concern. Until that time, the chances of a draft happening are slim to none.

(Oh, btw, this is from a 21 year E-7 with the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal (3 campaign stars), the NATO Medal (Former Yugoslavia) and the NATO Medal (Kosovo))

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quote:

Hmmmm, imagine that...the sponsor of the bill voting against it.

So, unless it gets re-introduced in the 109th Congress, it ain't gonna happen.

Oh, and btw, one other thing...the previous draft started during WWII and ended after Vietnam. So, Vietnam did not start the draft.


You are correct. How funni history does not repeat itself anymore.

and which WW was the end of all wars?

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quote:
Originally posted by TheSongRemainsTheSame:

quote:

Hmmmm, imagine that...the sponsor of the bill voting against it.

So, unless it gets re-introduced in the 109th Congress, it ain't gonna happen.

Oh, and btw, one other thing...the previous draft started during WWII and ended after Vietnam. So, Vietnam did not start the draft.


You are correct. How funni history does not repeat itself anymore.

and which WW was the end of all wars?


Oh, I am not saying for a second that the SOBs wouldn't implement a draft in a flash if they a) thought it necessary b) thought it would do more good than harm and c) thought that it could have a positive impact in time to respond to the particular crisis of the day; the point I was getting at in my above posts was that implementing a draft is a systematic, strategic move (takes a long time to start and a long time to stop) that has a whole lot of other things have to go in place for a draft to be applied. When I see GM cutting production on cars so that they can make HMMWV's, then I'll be concerned about a draft. Until then, I will be a skeptic.

You know, its sort of funny if you think about it. All of these progressives and socialists out there (not just here on GSC, but in general), yet, the only strategic actions that have been taken to make a draft happen were done by the most progressive of politicians. The draft started prior to WWII (a little better than a year before) by FDR. Selective Service registration started under Carter: "The registration requirement was suspended in April 1975. It was resumed again in 1980 by President Carter in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan." And the bill to introduce the draft was introduced by Rangel. So they created the system and then whine about the system that they created. And then conveniently forget the system's history and ascribe it to others. If it wasn't so pitiful how "followers of the (progressive) way" allow themselves to be duped, it would be funny.

As to your war to end all wars question, it was World War I. And, had we minded our own business during that conflict, it is likely that many of the problems we are dealing with today would never have come about. The French and the British would not have been in a position to arbitrarily draw national borders with a straightedge on a map, defining the existence of most mideastern countries, Germany likely would still have been under imperial rule (no matter how bad Kaiser Wilhelm was, he was a piker compared to what came into power in 1932), etc., etc., etc.

Oh, btw, how in the world did this thread get started in "Open" rather than "Politacks," anyway?

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