Galen- yep, outside of limb meetings. Sometimes people that had sceduling conflicts with ministry activities were treated like they had leprosy or something. If they wouldn't "rearrange" their schedule- something must have been "really wrong" with them. They were supposed to get a second rate job that would allow them the time to come to fellowship, and be available to help and participate in classes.
If people going to school had scheduling "difficulties", the advice was practically "whadya mean? You think your precious education is bigger than da verd??!!! You WANT to DO the word, don't you?" That would be a more accurate assessment of the situation..
The sad thing is all of this insanity sounded pretty logical to me at the time.
I still don't know what happened to the guy with the Master's degree. They "escorted" him outside of the "holy be blessed" 250 mile radius of "headquarter protection". "Assigned" him at least ten states away. Put him in a place where "they" could keep a close eye on him. Haven't heard from him since. Un friggin believable..
Oh yes, the L.B.J.A.'s- they were SOME wannabes, but normally leadership. Maybe they thought somebody with a "miracle" WOW or Corps experience would look good on their resume, who knows..
My eyes must have been so glazed over- didn't even bat an eye at this crap after a while.
I guess I was like a lot of other people- thought that was the way life was supposed to really be.
From what I've seen, most people treat their horses better.
From what I read here, and from conversations I've had, I think we were trained to ignore problems. "Just believe, we KNOW da verd works, DON'T WE?" So I just let problems add up. Year after year. After a while, to me, they just weren't there anymore. But I did not get rid of them. Still just waiting silently to surface again. No wonder I can go nuts sometimes, heh heh.
Though it is easy to offend people here on GS, by mentioning such.
I agree. I try to leave a loophole in these arguments because I did indeed encounter Corps that had a heart of gold. One of them is my cousin- couldn't say enough nice things about her. Really into it to serve. After spewing out all the bad crap the bast***ds did, sometimes I can't say enough good about what some of them did.
Just seems that SOME- and quite a few- of those put in charge just happened to be among some of the worst. Sometimes its easy to be misunderstood.
Oldies, I think that was perhaps a fair assessment based on a someone's personal experience. Not a falsehood- perhaps even a reasonable assumption.
I saw this kind of thing firsthand also. I saw those, who would otherwise receive the same beatings, given the "priviledge" of sitting in the inner circle- simply because the person happened to intimately know or be related to the right person. "They" were smart even then- the consequences of chasing off whole families would have been more of a problem than they were prepared to deal with.
These FEW "exemptions" lasted in my area until the mid-ninties at the latest, then everybody was fair game for scrutiny, tongue lashing and worse.
Who knows.. maybe they went easy on you so that someday somebody would be suspicious as to why, heh heh.
Cripe- even Dillinger was a nice guy, to a FEW folks. Times he could turn on the charm- and they would have sworn on their mothers grave that he was the nicest guy since the earth cooled.
Interesting how oldies refused to address any of the examples of twi's "believing action" that I listed. He totally changed the subject by attacking my use of the word "we".
OK oldies...let's pretend that I used the word "I"...ok? Feel better? Now address the content of my post, if you can. Twi leaders consistantly gave BAD ADVICE to people...advised them to take "action" that was self destructive. I stand by my remarks.
...and your own personal experiences in twi do not negate or justify the evil that this cult espoused...and the damage they did to thousands of people...all in the name of God. Shame on them and shame on you for defending them.
oldies...if you had such a swell time fellowshipping with twi...why don't you find yourself a nice splinter group...many of them also hold on to the myth of "the good old days". Perhaps you can all sit around together and do a word study or something...hell, I hear some of them even hand out nametags!
"If you had a chronic health problem, you were not "believing"...."
Yeah, a real twist onto PFAL doctrine. Not actually taught in PFAL, and easily quashed but only if someone is sharp. By far the worst possible twisting of the idea of a 'Law of beleiving'.
Often they forgot that 'rain falls on saint and sinner alike', and that we dont control the World there is an entire system setup for those who do control it and PFAL states that such is not us.
I just like to ring in now and then that what Galen's stating is a reinvention of what PFAL taught. PFAL taught that we are now, in this world, "more than conquerors" through Him that loved us. That the promises of God are available to the person who knows them and applies them through believing action. That a person can be more than a conqueror in any situation in life regardless of the situation. That the devil is defeated and that we have the victory over him NOW, in life's dealings and challenges by believing the promises of God. Satan is the god of this world, but WE ARE the sons of god with all power, over Satan and his kingdom. This is man's day, Satan is the God of this world, but we are the sons of God manifesting the power of God and we're ringing the devil up, kicking his butt and taking names. That's PFAL.
If that can produce negative results - PFAL needs to be looked at in light of what it taught, not what we wish it meant to teach.
"How many do you know?"....the promises of God in the bible. PFAL asks the question of the student.
We can nuance all this out to some common sense understanding today, but PFAL doesn't do that. PFAL is a pedal to the metal, flat out, believe the Word and what it says and you WILL absolutely receive according to your believing. Or don't, it's up to you.
PFAL sets forth a workflow - not a process. The process is the manifestation of pneuma hagion in a "believer's" life and that can't be analyzed, only ascertained, PFAL teaches. You can apply a series of steps to receive from God but you can't break what's really happening down to it's component parts because the parts are spiritual and spiritual things are ascertained, known, received, but not dissected, compartmentalized or anaylyzed.
I'd call that a workflow, and I think it's important to understand that as a basic premise of PFAL. If you do x things, you will receive according to your believing. Drapes? Red drapes?
Chronic health problems? The answer to that in PFAL is to pray and believe for the promises of God to come to pass in your life. Find a promise and stick to it. If a person relied on that they would be perfectly in line with what PFAL taught.
If VPW were alive today he would no more cop to saying the devil controls our lives in the "real world" than he'd declare Jesus is God. :D--> :D-->
Oldiesman never saw the evil leadership in action because they were all chasing after Galen, trying to figure what port he would show up in after he was kicked out once again. They didn't have time for Oldies. :D-->
"... That a person can be more than a conqueror in any situation in life regardless of the situation"
That is adding a bit dont you think?
No, I don't. Tell me where you think I'm adding to it, and where it says otherwise in PFAL and I'll be happy to entertain your suggestions.
It's not a question of what I want it to have taught. It's a question of you not getting the message that it did teach, Galen. That's not a put down. I think it perfectly explains why your experience was so different than others who post theirs here on GS.
Like I said, if you want to cop to the devil's control over your life and say it's taught in PFAL that his strongholds govern your activity as a son of God, that's your story. Stick to it. It's not what PFAL teaches.
Here's a section that has a ring to it:
"A number of years ago a man came to see me about his fear. He told me that according to insurance statistics in the United States a traveling salesman is supposed to wreck his automobile every so many 1,000's of miles. This man had already driven 2,000 miles more than the average salesman, and his fear of an accident was becoming an obsession. He was losing business day after day and week after week because of this fear. He came to me and I explained to him the law of believing. The man changed his believing and has not had an accident to this day."
Which reminds me:
"He is not only able to do things abundantly, but exceeding abundantly. Believe and then receive.
The Law of Believing is the greatest law in the Word of God. As a matter of fact, it is not only the greatest law in The Word, is is the greatest law in the whole world. Believing works for saint and sinner alike".
Speaking of moving mountains:
"This is the great law in the Word of God, "...Whosoever..." It does not say Christian or non-Christian; whosoever means whosoever. "Whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be Thou removed, and...cast into the sea and shall not doubt...but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith." In other words, say it, believe it, and it will come to pass".
"The law of believing is the greatest law in the Word of God; whosoever says it, whosoever believes will act and receive."
Maybe you're not a Christian, or a non-Christian Galen, but a third category. PFAL teaches that a non-Christian, not even a person who reads or studies the bible, knows a promise from a pole, who never heard a Word of God to save his life, and who says to that mountain over there, giddyap, it's going to giddyap if he doesn't doubt. No promises, no revelation, no nothing. Just the giddyap and no doubt.
If you're disagreeing on PFAL's teaching of a believers control over the physical world, it may be because you're hanging on an "it".
"The law of believing is the greatest law in the Word of God; whosoever says IT,..."
If "it's" a matter of something like knowing "what's available", we have a contradiction in what's taught if you want to say that moving mountains is dependent on what's available because the above quotes clearly state that IT IS available, contingent on only one thing-believing.
If you want to say that moving mountains is figurative for big things, I think VPW picked a big record and a big thing to illustrate that point. IE, "moving mountains" points to exceeding abundantly above what we can ask or think. I can't think of any incident in recorded history that reports a mountain being moved at the word of a person because they believed. Everything else comes up as a molehill in comparison to it.
End of the world? I guess that depends on how much of your world you hang on which part.
It's a little out of balance, don't you think? Or am I overstating "it" again?
For me the Law of Believing as taught in PFAL was heavily influenced by 50s pop psychology icons such as Norman Vincent Peale, Earl Nightingale, and Maxwell Maltz all of whom espoused that a positive outlook enhances productivity and is entirely congruent with biblical teachings. That is God wants you to be optimistic about things. I think that a positive outlook is helpful since it does lift a certain amount of burden from our shoulders but its not a "fire engine red" machine that guarantees anyone their desires. For example the only person I've known who has a story comparable to VPW's "fire engine red" story was... VPW.
In my experience, I've applied myself to the accomplishment of personal goals and with hard work ,and the belief that I can get there, it usually works out. But not always exactly as I had imagined it or within the time frame I wanted it. The positive attitude and belief in a helpful divine being can obviously keep up the confidence during this process which is of great value.
On the other hand one thing that VPW tossed in - the so called "negative believing" has runined lots of people especially those combatting chronic healt problems. After all some people were being told that it was their lack of believing (or specfic fears) that resulted in the manifestation of illness. At what point does concern become worry ? At what does worry beome obsession ? At what point does the obsession become anxiety ? At what point does that anxiety turn into fear / negative believing ? And how long do you have to have this fear before something icky comes to pass ?
Seems to me they had excellor sessions for SIT but why didn't they have these for "the law of believing" which was presumably the foundation of the foundational class ? Its far too important a concept to leave to conjecture especially since, mishandled, it can lead to personal misfortune and even death (e.g. the woman who lost her son). And there was that reference to "needs and wants parallel" which I defy anyone to explain let alone apply in an actual setting. Are there measurement tools available for determining if you need something as much as you want it ? Is there any wiggle room ? At what point is a need the same a desire. Is a desire that isn't a need being selfish ? I never got any straight answers for any of these questions and was
usually told "well you will get it right eventually.. are you abundantly sharing ?". For such an immutable Law there were lots of problems getting a practical handle around it.
In my view, the negative believing concept was employed to explain why people weren't living the life described on the PFAL green card. If you weren't experiencing health or harmony in the home, then don't blame God or TWI - blame yourself for not renewing your mind to believe enough for these things. Its a convenient position for Way leadership to take since it lets them off the hook for the problems in a believer's life. For me the Law of Believing as taught by VPW was an attempt at marrying contemporary cultural trends with biblical teaching. It was a proposed forumla for obtaining the "abdundance" referred to in John 10:10 though the concept of "abundance" was relative since I knew many who were living stacked 4 to an appartment and sharing a clunker car. And lots of these people were so called "spiritual heavyweights". If they can't rise above near poverty level then something must be wrong with the concept of abundance and the associated "law of believing". "Oh I don't need a comfortable house for wife and kids. I prefer living with a large group of people (some of whom I don't even know) sharing one bathroom".
Alot of it was youth the crowd he was preaching to at the time.
To be young is often the ability to live in a world full of dreams.
Not neccesarily a bad thing just a season of life.
Then we grow older and assume the responsibility of adulthood and this believing theory gets real and alive and more IMPORTANT to life.
Your husband may not be there yet!! lol some people never grow up and just ignore the signs that responsibility and integrity and a number of virtues in life should bring.
so give it to God and keep playing like a child.
Take a look at the bible and the planning and vision and actions and deeds so many of the storys speak of.
folks who thought out what was happening how to take care of it and followed through with the plan. God gave Joseph a plan on how to avoid total destruction of the land and he then told the pharoah and then he spent YEARS taking care of what needed to be done to AVOID what God said would happen.
WE have common sense if we stand in the middle of the highway and believe for the truck to go another direction we will probably die a horrible death. When Jesus was tempted he didnt take it he stayed on his minute by minute walk with God His father and obeyed His instructions on what to do next.
God gives us choices to Chose!
I will share the very reason I never went back to fellowship and took up with the ranks, our fellowship leader "believed" they did a nice family but they suffered at the hand of twi dictates of classes and time and money to travel. One day my small son said to me, " Mom if God is so good to people that serve him then why do they always leave their children and beg us to babysit?" Why does *** (their son) always wear the same tee shirt everyday and it is dirty? Why do they not get a new car because theirs always is broken?
I looked at this child , I had to work everyday, raise children keep my house reasonable and all what life is and he really wanted to know. I said God is good son and so are you.
I never went back.
the witness of life is life are you peaceful? do you have a means to succeed in endeavers ? do you cherish wisdom as the bible tells us to?
the bottom line is it just didnt work for so many this believing equals receiving ideal, EXCEPT for those living off another pay check!!
for Om alot of illusion was in twi, we thought or assumed life was a certain manner for many to find them divorced and miserable in the real life that was hidden to uphold this delusion. huge lengths are taken to appear in a certain manner the pressure to maintain an appearance is incredible and denial is parmount.
not very real or healthy or Godly as the bible states we are to be honest and lie not to one another.
Rascal, I'm still waiting for your answer to my questions. What preferential treatment did I receive [edited]?
You asserted this in a prior post and I shrugged it off, but since you mention this yet again, I want you to reveal what specific things you're talking about.
quote:
Oldies, I think that was perhaps a fair assessment based on a someone's personal experience. Not a falsehood- perhaps even a reasonable assumption.
Mr. Hammeroni, it's not fair or reasonable to conclude that I received preferential treatment, or that protection was purchased on my behalf, based upon one of my family members' employment at twi. If anyone makes those allegations, they need to be specific. Put it on the table and let's see if it withstands scrutiny.
I will say this: my whole family was involved in twi. My mother got us in the Word, all of us. That was a blessing, that all of us were involved, and that point alone made my experience more pleasant than others. But that doesn't cover the accusations made on this thread. And, your blanket assumption that whole families were treated better than others because they were somehow "afraid" of losing them is so absurd. And it's insulting to my twig coordinators in NY, who basically had nothing to do with what was going on at hq.
and I already replied to you earlier....but if you insist I will elaborate....
Since you repeatedly claim that you personally never saw or experienced the varying forms of abuse the rest of us did, or that you were never held to the same standard the rest of us were.....and that YOU yourself personally said that you must have been in a different ministry than the rest of us.....THAT could and should be considered *preferencial treatment*...[snip]
Interesting how oldies refused to address any of the examples of twi's "believing action" that I listed. He totally changed the subject by attacking my use of the word "we".
Ok Groucho, UncleHairy?, I will try to address your examples:
quote:
...oldies...oh, we GOT IT all right. Like when a friend of mine was bleeding internally, and the twi leadership told him that the "proper" believing ACTION was to ignore the medical community and to let some jagoff lays hands on them and pray...
TWI didn't teach us to ignore the medical community. I don't doubt that some zealots got in leadership positions and said some stupid things, but that's not necessarily what was being promoted at twi. Heck there were medical doctors in TWI, (Rawkins, Winegarner, etc.) Do we ignore them? twi taught that when we are sick, we go to God first, but if that doesn't work, we seek medical attention.
quote:
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to sell your damn house and give twi the money...
This is ridiculous. Those going in the Corps and WOW couldn't be in debt. Therefore if someone was going Corps or WOW and they had a mortgage, they had to get rid of it. If they sold the house, I can see them thinking they should give 10%, although I don't see any mandate, at least in twi-1.
quote:
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was refuse to have any communication with your "earthly" family because they didn't go to the same church as you did.
Never saw that in twi-1, and it really sounds ridiculous. I knew of many folks who had family members who weren't in twi, and they were never taught to refuse to have any communication with earthy family. TWI did teach not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. But since twi purported to believe the bible, they taught that, and it was up to the individual participant how they wanted to apply that in their situation. You blame twi for something they have no control over.
quote:
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to quit college or quit your good job so that you could join the free labor force that twi utilized to build their "empire"
This was the individual's choice. In one sense I see your point because twi was all about "moving the Word" therefore that was the most important and godly thing to do. But it still was the individuals choice and there were plenty of folks who didn't follow that path.
quote:
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to leave your spouse because they didn't live up to the "standards" that twi had set.
I distinctly remember being taught in twi-1 that you should stay with your unbelieving spouse if they want to remain with you. I cannot speak for twi-2. And I doubt seriously if there was just one formula for this problem.
quote:
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to mark and avoid people on "spiritual suspicion"...
Here is the only point I totally agree with you on. Craig & co. was off the wall with this mentality.
I personally saw and experienced all of the above occur in twi 1...with the exception of being required to sell your house....I saw that in twi 2
I WAS however in twi 1, required to sell my horses (this was what the first genuine face melting vein popping spittle flying *confrontation* I ever experienced was all about) and required to sell my car to my tc at a very low price in accordance with the tc and lc`s demand....as well as get rid of my dog.
(After that first *confrontation* there wasn`t anything I wouldn`t have done to have avoided another)
They were viewed as an interferance with my spiritual *duty*
Since you repeatedly claim that you personally never saw or experienced the varying forms of abuse the rest of us did, or that you were never held to the same standard the rest of us were.....and that YOU yourself personally said that you must have been in a different ministry than the rest of us.....THAT could and should be considered *preferencial treatment*...[snip].
Rascal, you don't speak for everyone in twi. Who's "us"?
With regard to your accusations toward me, if you can't be specific, then all it does is confirm your false accusatory mindset. And it confirms what I say you engage in.
"and that point alone made my experience more pleasant than others."
You could call that the understatement of the year..
I hold no hostility towards you- just trying to figure this thing out.
Personally, after I was in a year or so, I wondered why they would treat ANYBODY nicely, at least on a consistent basis. With a whole family, maybe there is strength in numbers- some MOG trying to rape one of your family, and I would imagine there would be hell for him to pay. Others did not have the same "luxury".
My impression, and it is that only that, not even an opinion- having never seen some of the real bad stuff, it is almost unbelievable for you. Like finding out your best friend is some kind of monster.
Maybe you had good leadership. And I would bet they absorbed the crap for you- crap you never saw- barring what I read about your brief corps experience. They did the same for me too, but only sometimes.
I can see your point, but I see Rascal's too. Why is your experience so vastly different than that of the vast majority here? And they are not making the stuff up- I've witnessed enough of it myself. It's almost like you two are from two different planets.
Your planet "way" was a place of good, lightness, and joy- others, it was a nightmare they couldn't wake up from until they left, or were booted out. Mine was somewhere in between the two.
As far a VP and Loy are concerned- I did not personally know either of them- but learning what they did to my sisters, I think the world would have been better off without them. Both of the bastards betrayed us, betrayed us all.
Because it is bad form to name names. Specifics will give away identities of those involved and perhaps the person in question would not want this revealed here.
But anyway.. it does kind of fit in the topic of the thread. I ignored some REAL crap in the guise of "believing". Yep, I had my suspicions about some of the junk that was going on, but refused to let myself think "negative". All doubts were to be avoided- don't want negative results you know.
I think we were taught to equate trust in men and men's "ministries" with trust in God. "Owe your stinking life to my ministry" ptooie.
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rascal
Lol....How do YOU know who and what *I* know and don`t know?
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rascal
Oldies you repeatedly assert that you never experienced or saw the bad treatment that most of the rest of us endured.....
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Ham
Galen- yep, outside of limb meetings. Sometimes people that had sceduling conflicts with ministry activities were treated like they had leprosy or something. If they wouldn't "rearrange" their schedule- something must have been "really wrong" with them. They were supposed to get a second rate job that would allow them the time to come to fellowship, and be available to help and participate in classes.
If people going to school had scheduling "difficulties", the advice was practically "whadya mean? You think your precious education is bigger than da verd??!!! You WANT to DO the word, don't you?" That would be a more accurate assessment of the situation..
The sad thing is all of this insanity sounded pretty logical to me at the time.
I still don't know what happened to the guy with the Master's degree. They "escorted" him outside of the "holy be blessed" 250 mile radius of "headquarter protection". "Assigned" him at least ten states away. Put him in a place where "they" could keep a close eye on him. Haven't heard from him since. Un friggin believable..
Oh yes, the L.B.J.A.'s- they were SOME wannabes, but normally leadership. Maybe they thought somebody with a "miracle" WOW or Corps experience would look good on their resume, who knows..
My eyes must have been so glazed over- didn't even bat an eye at this crap after a while.
I guess I was like a lot of other people- thought that was the way life was supposed to really be.
From what I've seen, most people treat their horses better.
From what I read here, and from conversations I've had, I think we were trained to ignore problems. "Just believe, we KNOW da verd works, DON'T WE?" So I just let problems add up. Year after year. After a while, to me, they just weren't there anymore. But I did not get rid of them. Still just waiting silently to surface again. No wonder I can go nuts sometimes, heh heh.
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Ham
I agree. I try to leave a loophole in these arguments because I did indeed encounter Corps that had a heart of gold. One of them is my cousin- couldn't say enough nice things about her. Really into it to serve. After spewing out all the bad crap the bast***ds did, sometimes I can't say enough good about what some of them did.
Just seems that SOME- and quite a few- of those put in charge just happened to be among some of the worst. Sometimes its easy to be misunderstood.
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Ham
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Oldies, I think that was perhaps a fair assessment based on a someone's personal experience. Not a falsehood- perhaps even a reasonable assumption.
I saw this kind of thing firsthand also. I saw those, who would otherwise receive the same beatings, given the "priviledge" of sitting in the inner circle- simply because the person happened to intimately know or be related to the right person. "They" were smart even then- the consequences of chasing off whole families would have been more of a problem than they were prepared to deal with.
These FEW "exemptions" lasted in my area until the mid-ninties at the latest, then everybody was fair game for scrutiny, tongue lashing and worse.
Who knows.. maybe they went easy on you so that someday somebody would be suspicious as to why, heh heh.
Cripe- even Dillinger was a nice guy, to a FEW folks. Times he could turn on the charm- and they would have sworn on their mothers grave that he was the nicest guy since the earth cooled.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Interesting how oldies refused to address any of the examples of twi's "believing action" that I listed. He totally changed the subject by attacking my use of the word "we".
OK oldies...let's pretend that I used the word "I"...ok? Feel better? Now address the content of my post, if you can. Twi leaders consistantly gave BAD ADVICE to people...advised them to take "action" that was self destructive. I stand by my remarks.
...and your own personal experiences in twi do not negate or justify the evil that this cult espoused...and the damage they did to thousands of people...all in the name of God. Shame on them and shame on you for defending them.
oldies...if you had such a swell time fellowshipping with twi...why don't you find yourself a nice splinter group...many of them also hold on to the myth of "the good old days". Perhaps you can all sit around together and do a word study or something...hell, I hear some of them even hand out nametags!
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socks
I just like to ring in now and then that what Galen's stating is a reinvention of what PFAL taught. PFAL taught that we are now, in this world, "more than conquerors" through Him that loved us. That the promises of God are available to the person who knows them and applies them through believing action. That a person can be more than a conqueror in any situation in life regardless of the situation. That the devil is defeated and that we have the victory over him NOW, in life's dealings and challenges by believing the promises of God. Satan is the god of this world, but WE ARE the sons of god with all power, over Satan and his kingdom. This is man's day, Satan is the God of this world, but we are the sons of God manifesting the power of God and we're ringing the devil up, kicking his butt and taking names. That's PFAL.
If that can produce negative results - PFAL needs to be looked at in light of what it taught, not what we wish it meant to teach.
"How many do you know?"....the promises of God in the bible. PFAL asks the question of the student.
We can nuance all this out to some common sense understanding today, but PFAL doesn't do that. PFAL is a pedal to the metal, flat out, believe the Word and what it says and you WILL absolutely receive according to your believing. Or don't, it's up to you.
PFAL sets forth a workflow - not a process. The process is the manifestation of pneuma hagion in a "believer's" life and that can't be analyzed, only ascertained, PFAL teaches. You can apply a series of steps to receive from God but you can't break what's really happening down to it's component parts because the parts are spiritual and spiritual things are ascertained, known, received, but not dissected, compartmentalized or anaylyzed.
I'd call that a workflow, and I think it's important to understand that as a basic premise of PFAL. If you do x things, you will receive according to your believing. Drapes? Red drapes?
Chronic health problems? The answer to that in PFAL is to pray and believe for the promises of God to come to pass in your life. Find a promise and stick to it. If a person relied on that they would be perfectly in line with what PFAL taught.
If VPW were alive today he would no more cop to saying the devil controls our lives in the "real world" than he'd declare Jesus is God.
:D--> 
:D-->
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Galen
socks:
"... PFAL taught that we are now, in this world, "more than conquerors" through Him that loved us."
It certainly does, within the given context that the Adversary is still the god of this world and in full control.
"... That a person can be more than a conqueror in any situation in life regardless of the situation"
That is adding a bit dont you think?
"... That the devil is defeated and that we have the victory over him NOW,"
Only within the context that Christ got back up again and in so doing conquered death.
"PFAL needs to be looked at in light of what it taught, not what we wish it meant to teach."
I agree that it does need to be seen inlight what what is it, and NOT what people made from and twisted it into.
I have no idea what YOU want it to have taught.
:-)
"How many do you know?"....the promises of God in the bible. PFAL asks the question of the student.
Which is still a good question.
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Oakspear
Oldiesman never saw the evil leadership in action because they were all chasing after Galen, trying to figure what port he would show up in after he was kicked out once again. They didn't have time for Oldies.
:D-->
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socks
No, I don't. Tell me where you think I'm adding to it, and where it says otherwise in PFAL and I'll be happy to entertain your suggestions.
It's not a question of what I want it to have taught. It's a question of you not getting the message that it did teach, Galen. That's not a put down. I think it perfectly explains why your experience was so different than others who post theirs here on GS.
Like I said, if you want to cop to the devil's control over your life and say it's taught in PFAL that his strongholds govern your activity as a son of God, that's your story. Stick to it. It's not what PFAL teaches.
Here's a section that has a ring to it:
"A number of years ago a man came to see me about his fear. He told me that according to insurance statistics in the United States a traveling salesman is supposed to wreck his automobile every so many 1,000's of miles. This man had already driven 2,000 miles more than the average salesman, and his fear of an accident was becoming an obsession. He was losing business day after day and week after week because of this fear. He came to me and I explained to him the law of believing. The man changed his believing and has not had an accident to this day."
Which reminds me:
"He is not only able to do things abundantly, but exceeding abundantly. Believe and then receive.
The Law of Believing is the greatest law in the Word of God. As a matter of fact, it is not only the greatest law in The Word, is is the greatest law in the whole world. Believing works for saint and sinner alike".
Speaking of moving mountains:
"This is the great law in the Word of God, "...Whosoever..." It does not say Christian or non-Christian; whosoever means whosoever. "Whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be Thou removed, and...cast into the sea and shall not doubt...but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith." In other words, say it, believe it, and it will come to pass".
"The law of believing is the greatest law in the Word of God; whosoever says it, whosoever believes will act and receive."
Maybe you're not a Christian, or a non-Christian Galen, but a third category. PFAL teaches that a non-Christian, not even a person who reads or studies the bible, knows a promise from a pole, who never heard a Word of God to save his life, and who says to that mountain over there, giddyap, it's going to giddyap if he doesn't doubt. No promises, no revelation, no nothing. Just the giddyap and no doubt.
If you're disagreeing on PFAL's teaching of a believers control over the physical world, it may be because you're hanging on an "it".
"The law of believing is the greatest law in the Word of God; whosoever says IT,..."
If "it's" a matter of something like knowing "what's available", we have a contradiction in what's taught if you want to say that moving mountains is dependent on what's available because the above quotes clearly state that IT IS available, contingent on only one thing-believing.
If you want to say that moving mountains is figurative for big things, I think VPW picked a big record and a big thing to illustrate that point. IE, "moving mountains" points to exceeding abundantly above what we can ask or think. I can't think of any incident in recorded history that reports a mountain being moved at the word of a person because they believed. Everything else comes up as a molehill in comparison to it.
End of the world? I guess that depends on how much of your world you hang on which part.
It's a little out of balance, don't you think? Or am I overstating "it" again?
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Galen
:-)
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diazbro
For me the Law of Believing as taught in PFAL was heavily influenced by 50s pop psychology icons such as Norman Vincent Peale, Earl Nightingale, and Maxwell Maltz all of whom espoused that a positive outlook enhances productivity and is entirely congruent with biblical teachings. That is God wants you to be optimistic about things. I think that a positive outlook is helpful since it does lift a certain amount of burden from our shoulders but its not a "fire engine red" machine that guarantees anyone their desires. For example the only person I've known who has a story comparable to VPW's "fire engine red" story was... VPW.
In my experience, I've applied myself to the accomplishment of personal goals and with hard work ,and the belief that I can get there, it usually works out. But not always exactly as I had imagined it or within the time frame I wanted it. The positive attitude and belief in a helpful divine being can obviously keep up the confidence during this process which is of great value.
On the other hand one thing that VPW tossed in - the so called "negative believing" has runined lots of people especially those combatting chronic healt problems. After all some people were being told that it was their lack of believing (or specfic fears) that resulted in the manifestation of illness. At what point does concern become worry ? At what does worry beome obsession ? At what point does the obsession become anxiety ? At what point does that anxiety turn into fear / negative believing ? And how long do you have to have this fear before something icky comes to pass ?
Seems to me they had excellor sessions for SIT but why didn't they have these for "the law of believing" which was presumably the foundation of the foundational class ? Its far too important a concept to leave to conjecture especially since, mishandled, it can lead to personal misfortune and even death (e.g. the woman who lost her son). And there was that reference to "needs and wants parallel" which I defy anyone to explain let alone apply in an actual setting. Are there measurement tools available for determining if you need something as much as you want it ? Is there any wiggle room ? At what point is a need the same a desire. Is a desire that isn't a need being selfish ? I never got any straight answers for any of these questions and was
usually told "well you will get it right eventually.. are you abundantly sharing ?". For such an immutable Law there were lots of problems getting a practical handle around it.
In my view, the negative believing concept was employed to explain why people weren't living the life described on the PFAL green card. If you weren't experiencing health or harmony in the home, then don't blame God or TWI - blame yourself for not renewing your mind to believe enough for these things. Its a convenient position for Way leadership to take since it lets them off the hook for the problems in a believer's life. For me the Law of Believing as taught by VPW was an attempt at marrying contemporary cultural trends with biblical teaching. It was a proposed forumla for obtaining the "abdundance" referred to in John 10:10 though the concept of "abundance" was relative since I knew many who were living stacked 4 to an appartment and sharing a clunker car. And lots of these people were so called "spiritual heavyweights". If they can't rise above near poverty level then something must be wrong with the concept of abundance and the associated "law of believing". "Oh I don't need a comfortable house for wife and kids. I prefer living with a large group of people (some of whom I don't even know) sharing one bathroom".
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mj412
Alot of it was youth the crowd he was preaching to at the time.
To be young is often the ability to live in a world full of dreams.
Not neccesarily a bad thing just a season of life.
Then we grow older and assume the responsibility of adulthood and this believing theory gets real and alive and more IMPORTANT to life.
Your husband may not be there yet!! lol some people never grow up and just ignore the signs that responsibility and integrity and a number of virtues in life should bring.
so give it to God and keep playing like a child.
Take a look at the bible and the planning and vision and actions and deeds so many of the storys speak of.
folks who thought out what was happening how to take care of it and followed through with the plan. God gave Joseph a plan on how to avoid total destruction of the land and he then told the pharoah and then he spent YEARS taking care of what needed to be done to AVOID what God said would happen.
WE have common sense if we stand in the middle of the highway and believe for the truck to go another direction we will probably die a horrible death. When Jesus was tempted he didnt take it he stayed on his minute by minute walk with God His father and obeyed His instructions on what to do next.
God gives us choices to Chose!
I will share the very reason I never went back to fellowship and took up with the ranks, our fellowship leader "believed" they did a nice family but they suffered at the hand of twi dictates of classes and time and money to travel. One day my small son said to me, " Mom if God is so good to people that serve him then why do they always leave their children and beg us to babysit?" Why does *** (their son) always wear the same tee shirt everyday and it is dirty? Why do they not get a new car because theirs always is broken?
I looked at this child , I had to work everyday, raise children keep my house reasonable and all what life is and he really wanted to know. I said God is good son and so are you.
I never went back.
the witness of life is life are you peaceful? do you have a means to succeed in endeavers ? do you cherish wisdom as the bible tells us to?
the bottom line is it just didnt work for so many this believing equals receiving ideal, EXCEPT for those living off another pay check!!
for Om alot of illusion was in twi, we thought or assumed life was a certain manner for many to find them divorced and miserable in the real life that was hidden to uphold this delusion. huge lengths are taken to appear in a certain manner the pressure to maintain an appearance is incredible and denial is parmount.
not very real or healthy or Godly as the bible states we are to be honest and lie not to one another.
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oldiesman
Rascal said:
Rascal, I'm still waiting for your answer to my questions. What preferential treatment did I receive [edited]?
You asserted this in a prior post and I shrugged it off, but since you mention this yet again, I want you to reveal what specific things you're talking about.
Mr. Hammeroni, it's not fair or reasonable to conclude that I received preferential treatment, or that protection was purchased on my behalf, based upon one of my family members' employment at twi. If anyone makes those allegations, they need to be specific. Put it on the table and let's see if it withstands scrutiny.I will say this: my whole family was involved in twi. My mother got us in the Word, all of us. That was a blessing, that all of us were involved, and that point alone made my experience more pleasant than others. But that doesn't cover the accusations made on this thread. And, your blanket assumption that whole families were treated better than others because they were somehow "afraid" of losing them is so absurd. And it's insulting to my twig coordinators in NY, who basically had nothing to do with what was going on at hq.
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rascal
and I already replied to you earlier....but if you insist I will elaborate....
Since you repeatedly claim that you personally never saw or experienced the varying forms of abuse the rest of us did, or that you were never held to the same standard the rest of us were.....and that YOU yourself personally said that you must have been in a different ministry than the rest of us.....THAT could and should be considered *preferencial treatment*...[snip]
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Cindy!
Perhaps a PT is in order so that this thread isn't de-railed further, oldies n rascal.
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rascal
Yes ma`am
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Cindy!
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oldiesman
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rascal
I personally saw and experienced all of the above occur in twi 1...with the exception of being required to sell your house....I saw that in twi 2
I WAS however in twi 1, required to sell my horses (this was what the first genuine face melting vein popping spittle flying *confrontation* I ever experienced was all about) and required to sell my car to my tc at a very low price in accordance with the tc and lc`s demand....as well as get rid of my dog.
(After that first *confrontation* there wasn`t anything I wouldn`t have done to have avoided another)
They were viewed as an interferance with my spiritual *duty*
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oldiesman
With regard to your accusations toward me, if you can't be specific, then all it does is confirm your false accusatory mindset. And it confirms what I say you engage in.
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Ham
"and that point alone made my experience more pleasant than others."
You could call that the understatement of the year..
I hold no hostility towards you- just trying to figure this thing out.
Personally, after I was in a year or so, I wondered why they would treat ANYBODY nicely, at least on a consistent basis. With a whole family, maybe there is strength in numbers- some MOG trying to rape one of your family, and I would imagine there would be hell for him to pay. Others did not have the same "luxury".
My impression, and it is that only that, not even an opinion- having never seen some of the real bad stuff, it is almost unbelievable for you. Like finding out your best friend is some kind of monster.
Maybe you had good leadership. And I would bet they absorbed the crap for you- crap you never saw- barring what I read about your brief corps experience. They did the same for me too, but only sometimes.
I can see your point, but I see Rascal's too. Why is your experience so vastly different than that of the vast majority here? And they are not making the stuff up- I've witnessed enough of it myself. It's almost like you two are from two different planets.
Your planet "way" was a place of good, lightness, and joy- others, it was a nightmare they couldn't wake up from until they left, or were booted out. Mine was somewhere in between the two.
As far a VP and Loy are concerned- I did not personally know either of them- but learning what they did to my sisters, I think the world would have been better off without them. Both of the bastards betrayed us, betrayed us all.
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rascal
Because it is bad form to name names. Specifics will give away identities of those involved and perhaps the person in question would not want this revealed here.
This story is not mine to tell.
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Ham
But anyway.. it does kind of fit in the topic of the thread. I ignored some REAL crap in the guise of "believing". Yep, I had my suspicions about some of the junk that was going on, but refused to let myself think "negative". All doubts were to be avoided- don't want negative results you know.
I think we were taught to equate trust in men and men's "ministries" with trust in God. "Owe your stinking life to my ministry" ptooie.
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