When one refuses to face reality and chooses to "spiritualize" things that REALLY need to be planned for and taken care of, it is a problem that might need professional intervention.
God gave us brains and expects us to use them.
My ex did this ALL the time....would even get rid of all of our furniture because he was tired of it and, "God would provide"
It was very sad, very illogical, and served no purpose at all.
Taking care of what needs attention is common sense. Joseph (book of Genesis) did NOT become head of Potiphar's household, the prison he was cast into, and second to Pharoah in Egypt by "believing" for the famine to be "ok"
It may be he's just got a deficiency in that area, smurfette.
If we look back at Way doctrine, we can see "believing action" taught. The "God has no hands but our hands with which to, etc." idea.
Procrastination is a common "ailment". Uncomfortable and difficult things can be put off simply because we don't want to or like to deal with them.
Looking at it realistically - that's understandable. It's good to recognize something for what it is - if it's a major hassle, it's a major hassle and seing it as such isn't "negative" or bad, it's seeing it for what it is. The question is, what do we do, how do we handle it? Putting it off another day won't get anything done.
Planning is a good skill for procrastinators to develop. Instead of leaving something to the last minute, maybe work with your husband to start planning out for certain kinds of things, like car repairs. When to do them, how much will they cost, do we need to save for it, set aside a day and make an appointment with a shop or get some time on the weekend to work on it.
All of those things make up the substance of getting stuff done. With a little energy flowing towards getting it done it will be easier to complete it as each item comes up. There's a list to check off, a date something has to be done by, etc.
Just some thoughts, from a guy who can put the "P" in procrastinate. -->
I suppose it's human nature to WANT things to turn out positive. That human desire was what twi exploited with their destructive doctrine of "believing = receiving". Of course, as many of us now know, it was just another lie. This form of "mind power", is the same concept that is promoted in witchcraft.
I have personally witnessed numerous serious situations where the person would ignore the reality in favor of twi's "wishful thinking" doctrine. Invariably, they would suffer the negative consequences. A lot of former twi folks STILL do not know how destructive and counterproductive this doctrine was...
...oldies...oh, we GOT IT all right. Like when a friend of mine was bleeding internally, and the twi leadership told him that the "proper" believing ACTION was to ignore the medical community and to let some jagoff lays hands on them and pray...
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to sell your damn house and give twi the money...
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was refuse to have any communication with your "earthly" family because they didn't go to the same church as you did.
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to quit college or quit your good job so that you could join the free labor force that twi utilized to build their "empire"
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to leave your spouse because they didn't live up to the "standards" that twi had set.
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to mark and avoid people on "spiritual suspicion"...
Oh, we get it allright oldies...The "action" part of twi's false "believing equals receiving" doctrine was always geared towards filling their bank accounts and furthering their self serving agendas...
Thanks for the laugh! I was frustrated and not thinking. I guess I was trying to ask if this problem was caused by waybrain only. Some rationalize everything with, "God will take care of it"
Is what I feel like doing because I have to push so hard to get anything taken care of and i honestly don't seem to have the energy/will to do it in every situation.
Yes, smurfette, it's tiring because you are having to be a mother to someone who COULD do things on his own, but willingly does not...and then gets mad at YOU for being mature and responsible.
I remember it got to where it made me tired even THINKING about all that.
Using "believing" or the bible or anything else to justify immature behavior is revolting.
Hey smurff....I have that very same trouble with my spouse as far as health issues with myself and children.
He also refuses to allow me to drive *his* car because in his opinion I do not practice *believing* and praying for the damned thing...(he of course is free to utilize and trash my vehicle)
I have had to just ignore his sarcasm and ire and do what is necessary for the health and well being of our family.
God will hold me responsible for what I know and do ...in SPITE of my spouses beliefs....so I just do my own thing and let him splutter....eventually in his own time he will come to grips with the falacy of that teaching.
I have never PRESUMED to speak for everybody else....lol
You Oldies, have repeatedly called MY personal experience *lies*....the experiences spoken of first hand by other posters and coorberated...anything that disturbs your rose colored view of way world.....sorry fella, it happened....all of your deniles and protestations will never change it.
anyway.....what you doing trying to knock me offa MY pedestal anyway buddy? Get your own.
Like when a friend of mine was bleeding internally, and the twi leadership told him that the "proper" believing ACTION was to ignore the medical community and to let some jagoff lays hands on them and pray...
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to sell your damn house and give twi the money...
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was refuse to have any communication with your "earthly" family because they didn't go to the same church as you did.
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to quit college or quit your good job so that you could join the free labor force that twi utilized to build their "empire"
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to leave your spouse because they didn't live up to the "standards" that twi had set.
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to mark and avoid people on "spiritual suspicion"...
I personally was subjected to SOME, and witnessed ALL THE ABOVE and MORE. The "above" was bad enough- the "more" would make your hair stand on end..
May not speak for "everybody in da world" but Uncle H. speaks for me.
Add to this the religious bigotry exhibited by those on top of the dung heap- don't see how people put up with it- at least in their own thinking. "They" won't let you anywhere NEAR their drinking fountain. "Your kind" are not "welcome" in the least. It's almost like racism, with a religious twist- and you are certainly subjected to it, if you do not "take believing action" no matter how dire the consequences, at "their" slightest whim.
I saw one person berated for not "believing" to have their broken arm healed fast enough so as to be able to slave away for the local leadership here.
That's the condition of things in the group when I left.
"I personally was subjected to SOME, and witnessed ALL THE ABOVE and MORE. The "above" was bad enough- the "more" would make your hair stand on end.."
Perhaps the problem was in going to these leaders for advice?
I dont recall ever telling anyone to do any of those things.
I have read about people being told to sell their houses, but even in that case by TWI's on policy on tithing only 10% - 15% would be given to HQ [iF that money was first-fruits, or increase often times selling a house is not increasing your Net Worth].
I was confronted numerous times about going WOW, but this never happened in Twig, only at those idiotic Annual Limb Meetings and it only came from WC.
I think that as Ex has said many of these things were ongoing within the WC, but those of us outside that inner circle never saw it?
Galen, things were not always like that, and not as bad in some areas that I was in- I don't remember a lot of it when the ministry was "younger"- less health issues, younger people- didn't need as much money, but some did occur.
Even in those days, doc had to say "quit telling people to quit taking their medicine". Some still did though.
In the late seventies, I saw folks being talked out of a good career because some lame-brained jackass thought that it was his place in life to get another notch in his belt by motivating the people to "be all they could be" by going WOW, or corps, or more.. and most were young enough to not be concerned about what kind of financial condition they'd be in in twenty years or so. Or what kind of marketable skills they may or may not have acquired.
I guess that's OK when you are younger, but you grow up sometime.
In the eighties, we knew who to avoid. The "Hitler" types, the givers of stupid advice, etc. After a while, they got pretty angry- their "talents" being so under-utilized. But even then, we had the option of taking or leaving anything they had to say, and still retain ministry involvement. I saw some of the results of their counsel and refused to seek it from them.
In the nineties the "idiots" were IN CHARGE. At least in my area. Couldn't avoid them any longer. Even if you could walk on the water, it wasn't enough. I saw couples split up and one go away in the night.. little explanation, you'd just never hear from them again. "So and so decided not to "believe" the word anymore".
Later I find, the "unbeliever" just refused to take any more crap out of the local corps guy. Don't get me wrong. We had a share of some good guys too. But not very many.
I saw one marriage survive DESPITE the best efforts of the local clergy. This was in the late 70's. Called the guy possessed and worse because he would not obey a stupid mandate. Told the wife to leave him. I saw worse than that in more recent years.
I saw corps sell their homes and give loads of the proceeds to the ministry, because they were not "spiritually sharp" enough to handle MONEY. At least according to their overseers. Yep, they were out of debt alright..
The corps that came to our area HAD to sell their home, uproot their family, and move to an area that they did NOT like. Bitter? They proceeded to dismantle anything good left in this area, and did their best to leave no stone unturned. And their overseers could not see any wrong..
I was PERSONALLY advised to have no meaningful communication with inlaws that were "off the word". They were marked and avoided on "genuine spiritual suspicion". Apparently the wife did not appear as appealing to the limb jackass as he wished. "Must just be possessed.."
I saw others advised to not seek college education, that it was earthly, sensual, devilish, etc. That the time was better spent going for "REAL" education, i.e., corps, wow, taking all the ministry classes, etc. I saw one guy manage to get his master's degree, but he paid for it with a LOT of grief from the ministry. He was corps, and he was never really trusted again after he got the degree.
If you had a chronic health problem, you were not "believing". If you could not hold down a job, family, "twig", and clean, help the leadership move every two months, help them with their gardening, cart their kids around, etc., you were not "believing". Not "loving".
It may have been a learning experience, but it is one I am glad Oldies did NOT get. He got his own share of other ones, I am sure..
From what I know from most of the other people whom I know that are out, they have related to me the same, and or similar events.
I don't see how Oldies missed out on all this "loving" stuff, even in the seventies. I wish I was as "lucky".
At one point, there appeared to be enough good left in it to put up with the bad.
How did I get tangled up in that mess? I think a lot of ways, I was like a horse. The saddle didn't feel too bad, we had some good times and stuff-
But slowly, "they" started tightening the leather. More commitment, more giving, more obedience, more more more. Slowly, more and more restraints were added, and I didn't have a clue of what was really happening. I don't claim to be the brightest of the bright or anything..
Its pretty easy to see it looking back now. But don't try it on me, again- or my kids. Won't work anyway, they didn't see "believing" fix everything for their dad anyway. At least their are smarter than me!
Well gee, I'll try not to speak for anyone else, lest I draw the righteous ire of O.M., but I saw the same crap that U.H. and Hammeroni did as well.
In fact, one of the main things I wanted to see after first sitting through the "class" was my carpal tunnel symtoms to go away. So, rather than demonstrate blatant "unbelieving" by going to the doctor, I just prayed, got "ministered" to and then went back to work. I convinced myself for years that I had been healed (GLORY!) until one day I simply couldn't move my hands.
That was a sort of rude wake-up call. So I went to an evil, negative, unbelieving doctor (horrors!). He was absolutely beside himself at the condition of my arms/hands. He was a specialist who had done nothing but carpal tunnel surgery for the past 20 years or so. He said I was tied with one other patient as having been the worst case he'd ever seen. So much for "believing action".
So after this reprobate, worldly, negative-thinking doctor did about a half-hour surgery I felt better than I had in a couple of decades. Of course, I had done a lot of irreversable harm as well, but what's that when compared to the joy of "believing"?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
11
26
26
27
Popular Days
Mar 31
48
Mar 29
31
Apr 1
20
Apr 4
8
Top Posters In This Topic
Galen 11 posts
rascal 26 posts
oldiesman 26 posts
Ham 27 posts
Popular Days
Mar 31 2005
48 posts
Mar 29 2005
31 posts
Apr 1 2005
20 posts
Apr 4 2005
8 posts
Cindy!
That's called delusion.
When one refuses to face reality and chooses to "spiritualize" things that REALLY need to be planned for and taken care of, it is a problem that might need professional intervention.
God gave us brains and expects us to use them.
My ex did this ALL the time....would even get rid of all of our furniture because he was tired of it and, "God would provide"
It was very sad, very illogical, and served no purpose at all.
Taking care of what needs attention is common sense. Joseph (book of Genesis) did NOT become head of Potiphar's household, the prison he was cast into, and second to Pharoah in Egypt by "believing" for the famine to be "ok"
ewww
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shellon
Go to pics forum and look at my two incredible daughters who have no daddy because he was 'believing' for his heart problems to go away.
Uh huh, believing
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
It may be he's just got a deficiency in that area, smurfette.
If we look back at Way doctrine, we can see "believing action" taught. The "God has no hands but our hands with which to, etc." idea.
Procrastination is a common "ailment". Uncomfortable and difficult things can be put off simply because we don't want to or like to deal with them.
Looking at it realistically - that's understandable. It's good to recognize something for what it is - if it's a major hassle, it's a major hassle and seing it as such isn't "negative" or bad, it's seeing it for what it is. The question is, what do we do, how do we handle it? Putting it off another day won't get anything done.
Planning is a good skill for procrastinators to develop. Instead of leaving something to the last minute, maybe work with your husband to start planning out for certain kinds of things, like car repairs. When to do them, how much will they cost, do we need to save for it, set aside a day and make an appointment with a shop or get some time on the weekend to work on it.
All of those things make up the substance of getting stuff done. With a little energy flowing towards getting it done it will be easier to complete it as each item comes up. There's a list to check off, a date something has to be done by, etc.
Just some thoughts, from a guy who can put the "P" in procrastinate.
-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
I suppose it's human nature to WANT things to turn out positive. That human desire was what twi exploited with their destructive doctrine of "believing = receiving". Of course, as many of us now know, it was just another lie. This form of "mind power", is the same concept that is promoted in witchcraft.
I have personally witnessed numerous serious situations where the person would ignore the reality in favor of twi's "wishful thinking" doctrine. Invariably, they would suffer the negative consequences. A lot of former twi folks STILL do not know how destructive and counterproductive this doctrine was...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
My3Cents
I'm not sure there's a difference.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Smurf, what you describe seems like the exact opposite of believing. Sort of like mental assent. Maybe even tempting fate.
If my vehicle doesn't function properly, believing to get it fixed means getting up off my rear end and going to the shop to get it fixed.
Gee, I thought that was pretty clear in twi, but I suppose some folks didn't get that part either.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
...oldies...oh, we GOT IT all right. Like when a friend of mine was bleeding internally, and the twi leadership told him that the "proper" believing ACTION was to ignore the medical community and to let some jagoff lays hands on them and pray...
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to sell your damn house and give twi the money...
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was refuse to have any communication with your "earthly" family because they didn't go to the same church as you did.
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to quit college or quit your good job so that you could join the free labor force that twi utilized to build their "empire"
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to leave your spouse because they didn't live up to the "standards" that twi had set.
OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to mark and avoid people on "spiritual suspicion"...
Oh, we get it allright oldies...The "action" part of twi's false "believing equals receiving" doctrine was always geared towards filling their bank accounts and furthering their self serving agendas...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Uncle Hairy, who's "we"?
Please speak for yourself and not someone else. The idea that "we" all supposedly experienced all of the above is a bit much.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
*WE* that is to say those who participated in twi DID experiece all of the above...and more.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
smurfette
3 cents,
Thanks for the laugh! I was frustrated and not thinking. I guess I was trying to ask if this problem was caused by waybrain only. Some rationalize everything with, "God will take care of it"
Is what I feel like doing because I have to push so hard to get anything taken care of and i honestly don't seem to have the energy/will to do it in every situation.
Edited by smurfetteLink to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Rascal, and you wonder why you are sometimes thought of as a liar?
You would do well to speak only for yourself and your experiences, because you can't possibly speak for everyone else.
Please get off of your pedestal.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Cindy!
Yes, smurfette, it's tiring because you are having to be a mother to someone who COULD do things on his own, but willingly does not...and then gets mad at YOU for being mature and responsible.
I remember it got to where it made me tired even THINKING about all that.
Using "believing" or the bible or anything else to justify immature behavior is revolting.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Hey smurff....I have that very same trouble with my spouse as far as health issues with myself and children.
He also refuses to allow me to drive *his* car because in his opinion I do not practice *believing* and praying for the damned thing...(he of course is free to utilize and trash my vehicle)
I have had to just ignore his sarcasm and ire and do what is necessary for the health and well being of our family.
God will hold me responsible for what I know and do ...in SPITE of my spouses beliefs....so I just do my own thing and let him splutter....eventually in his own time he will come to grips with the falacy of that teaching.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I have never PRESUMED to speak for everybody else....lol
You Oldies, have repeatedly called MY personal experience *lies*....the experiences spoken of first hand by other posters and coorberated...anything that disturbs your rose colored view of way world.....sorry fella, it happened....all of your deniles and protestations will never change it.
anyway.....what you doing trying to knock me offa MY pedestal anyway buddy? Get your own.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I personally was subjected to SOME, and witnessed ALL THE ABOVE and MORE. The "above" was bad enough- the "more" would make your hair stand on end..
May not speak for "everybody in da world" but Uncle H. speaks for me.
Add to this the religious bigotry exhibited by those on top of the dung heap- don't see how people put up with it- at least in their own thinking. "They" won't let you anywhere NEAR their drinking fountain. "Your kind" are not "welcome" in the least. It's almost like racism, with a religious twist- and you are certainly subjected to it, if you do not "take believing action" no matter how dire the consequences, at "their" slightest whim.
I saw one person berated for not "believing" to have their broken arm healed fast enough so as to be able to slave away for the local leadership here.
That's the condition of things in the group when I left.
Some "country club" to "belong" to.
Ptooie.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Galen
Hammeroni:
"I personally was subjected to SOME, and witnessed ALL THE ABOVE and MORE. The "above" was bad enough- the "more" would make your hair stand on end.."
Perhaps the problem was in going to these leaders for advice?
I dont recall ever telling anyone to do any of those things.
I have read about people being told to sell their houses, but even in that case by TWI's on policy on tithing only 10% - 15% would be given to HQ [iF that money was first-fruits, or increase often times selling a house is not increasing your Net Worth].
I was confronted numerous times about going WOW, but this never happened in Twig, only at those idiotic Annual Limb Meetings and it only came from WC.
I think that as Ex has said many of these things were ongoing within the WC, but those of us outside that inner circle never saw it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Galen, things were not always like that, and not as bad in some areas that I was in- I don't remember a lot of it when the ministry was "younger"- less health issues, younger people- didn't need as much money, but some did occur.
Even in those days, doc had to say "quit telling people to quit taking their medicine". Some still did though.
In the late seventies, I saw folks being talked out of a good career because some lame-brained jackass thought that it was his place in life to get another notch in his belt by motivating the people to "be all they could be" by going WOW, or corps, or more.. and most were young enough to not be concerned about what kind of financial condition they'd be in in twenty years or so. Or what kind of marketable skills they may or may not have acquired.
I guess that's OK when you are younger, but you grow up sometime.
In the eighties, we knew who to avoid. The "Hitler" types, the givers of stupid advice, etc. After a while, they got pretty angry- their "talents" being so under-utilized. But even then, we had the option of taking or leaving anything they had to say, and still retain ministry involvement. I saw some of the results of their counsel and refused to seek it from them.
In the nineties the "idiots" were IN CHARGE. At least in my area. Couldn't avoid them any longer. Even if you could walk on the water, it wasn't enough. I saw couples split up and one go away in the night.. little explanation, you'd just never hear from them again. "So and so decided not to "believe" the word anymore".
Later I find, the "unbeliever" just refused to take any more crap out of the local corps guy. Don't get me wrong. We had a share of some good guys too. But not very many.
I saw one marriage survive DESPITE the best efforts of the local clergy. This was in the late 70's. Called the guy possessed and worse because he would not obey a stupid mandate. Told the wife to leave him. I saw worse than that in more recent years.
I saw corps sell their homes and give loads of the proceeds to the ministry, because they were not "spiritually sharp" enough to handle MONEY. At least according to their overseers. Yep, they were out of debt alright..
The corps that came to our area HAD to sell their home, uproot their family, and move to an area that they did NOT like. Bitter? They proceeded to dismantle anything good left in this area, and did their best to leave no stone unturned. And their overseers could not see any wrong..
I was PERSONALLY advised to have no meaningful communication with inlaws that were "off the word". They were marked and avoided on "genuine spiritual suspicion". Apparently the wife did not appear as appealing to the limb jackass as he wished. "Must just be possessed.."
I saw others advised to not seek college education, that it was earthly, sensual, devilish, etc. That the time was better spent going for "REAL" education, i.e., corps, wow, taking all the ministry classes, etc. I saw one guy manage to get his master's degree, but he paid for it with a LOT of grief from the ministry. He was corps, and he was never really trusted again after he got the degree.
If you had a chronic health problem, you were not "believing". If you could not hold down a job, family, "twig", and clean, help the leadership move every two months, help them with their gardening, cart their kids around, etc., you were not "believing". Not "loving".
It may have been a learning experience, but it is one I am glad Oldies did NOT get. He got his own share of other ones, I am sure..
From what I know from most of the other people whom I know that are out, they have related to me the same, and or similar events.
I don't see how Oldies missed out on all this "loving" stuff, even in the seventies. I wish I was as "lucky".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I was fortunate to be involved with excellent twigs and coordinators.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Anyway, why didn't I just leave?
At one point, there appeared to be enough good left in it to put up with the bad.
How did I get tangled up in that mess? I think a lot of ways, I was like a horse. The saddle didn't feel too bad, we had some good times and stuff-
But slowly, "they" started tightening the leather. More commitment, more giving, more obedience, more more more. Slowly, more and more restraints were added, and I didn't have a clue of what was really happening. I don't claim to be the brightest of the bright or anything..
Its pretty easy to see it looking back now. But don't try it on me, again- or my kids. Won't work anyway, they didn't see "believing" fix everything for their dad anyway. At least their are smarter than me!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
Well gee, I'll try not to speak for anyone else, lest I draw the righteous ire of O.M., but I saw the same crap that U.H. and Hammeroni did as well.
In fact, one of the main things I wanted to see after first sitting through the "class" was my carpal tunnel symtoms to go away. So, rather than demonstrate blatant "unbelieving" by going to the doctor, I just prayed, got "ministered" to and then went back to work. I convinced myself for years that I had been healed (GLORY!) until one day I simply couldn't move my hands.
That was a sort of rude wake-up call. So I went to an evil, negative, unbelieving doctor (horrors!). He was absolutely beside himself at the condition of my arms/hands. He was a specialist who had done nothing but carpal tunnel surgery for the past 20 years or so. He said I was tied with one other patient as having been the worst case he'd ever seen. So much for "believing action".
So after this reprobate, worldly, negative-thinking doctor did about a half-hour surgery I felt better than I had in a couple of decades. Of course, I had done a lot of irreversable harm as well, but what's that when compared to the joy of "believing"?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
You folks must have been in a different ministry than I was.
I NEVER was discouraged from going to the doctor.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Nope same ministry ..... same sh-t. Some were just a little more insulated from the evil is all.....doesn`t make the evil non existant....
I wish that the rest of us could have enjoyed the privelege of your preferencial treatmnent oldies.
[edit]
Too damn bad for the rest of us eh? I guess that we should have *believed* better.
Edited by moddishwasherLink to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
[edited]
Edited by moddishwasherLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.