I’ll address your points by the same numbers that you used.
(1) Nothing in my words you quoted discredits God in any way. The “if” statement assumes that the Bible is inspired by God. Surely you know that many Bible-believing Christians do not believe that the days of Genesis are literal days. If you don’t know that, then you know less about your Christian brethren than I do. Some Bible literalists believe that the verse is literal but that “day” literally means “unspecified period of time,” which is one definition for it. The other two are “daytime” and “24-hour period.” Some Bible-believing Christians take most of the Bible literally, but think that the enumeration of days in Genesis 1 is a literary device. Some Christians take the Bible less literally than the previous groups but believe that it is inspired by God and look to it more for the heart of what it says than the letter. There are three different groups of Christians, all of whom honor God, who disagree with you. I’m sure there are others who don’t quite fit into the groups I listed.
Re: “’Long Gone’ is a term that YOU use to represent the literal YOU. Its not a figure of speech, emphasizing something ABOUT you.” You've got that backwards. “Long Gone” is a screen name that refers to my GreaseSpot persona, which only represents a tiny part of who I am, and doesn’t even do that well. The name is also a play on one small thing about me, that I am “long gone” from TWI. In another sense, it's just the name applied to a GreaseSpot account. Anyone with access to my computer can post with the "Long Gone" screen name and change the profile. (Actually, anyone with access to any of three computers or any of my backup CDs, so they can copy a cookies file, can access my GS account. I never sign off.)
(2) I haven’t posted a single link to a site that discredits people who believe in God or people who love God. Regarding the quote, that’s as silly as saying that calling me an idiot discredits redheads. (It might discredit idiots, though.)
(3) Not believing a proposition is not the same as arguing against belief of the proposition, or as claiming that the proposition is false. They’re actually three different things.
(4) “Some factual claims or arguments of some people” means just what it says. That a Christian makes a claim does not make it a claim of Christianity. Later, I’ll post some links to sites where Bible-believing Christians make the same sorts of arguments against the same sorts of claims and arguments I have. If I have been arguing against Christianity, then those Christians are too. Also, saying that a statement is false is not the same as saying that the person making the statement is lying.
(4a) and (4b) Addressed in (2).
(5) Re: “Divine Creation in 7 ordinary days is NOT a claim of Christianity?” I said “basic Christian doctrine,” not “a claim of Christianity,” but “Divine Creation in 7 ordinary days” is neither. It may be the claim of some Christians, but most of the young earth creationists I’ve read say the creation happened in 6 ordinary days, then God rested. Plenty of other Christians disagree.
(6) Re: “Just WHAT are you referring to?” I’m referring to basic Christian doctrine. God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and Earth. Jesus Christ, only begotten son, crucified, died, buried, rose, ascended, will come again. Man created special, fall of man, consequences, need for redemption, redemption by grace, eternal life. That sort of thing. I don’t want to refute basic Christian doctrine and I couldn’t if I wanted to. I like Christianity. I just have not, for all I’ve tried in the past, been able to believe it. At this point, if there is a God who wants me, He’ll have to knock louder or something. If I’m just being hardheaded, like some Christians think, maybe He’ll have to knock me over the head. Otherwise, I’ll just go on living the best I can, which is pretty much according to Christian morals anyway.
Re: “Evidently you're limiting your scorn to the concept of the young earth and creation in 7 days? and only wish to rebuke those who believe that and refute their claims.” Actually, that’s a little strong. It doesn’t bother me one bit for people to believe those concepts. It bothers me that they trash honest science. Even that wouldn’t bother me much if they kept it among themselves, but they don’t. They keep trying to mess with science education.
God used terms 'evening and morning' to represent the literal truth of "the first day," which IS literally ONE day. You are using semantics to discredit God and insinuate He is lying in the sense that it could not have possibly taken only one (24 hour) day.
I don't think it is symantics that LG is challenging you with. You want to be literal, well, literally you can't have a day without the sun. You just have cold cold night. That is if you can have a night without a day. Dark and cold.
I know, but God said let there be light on the first day.
I know that many ID folks like to point out the perfect balance that the earth is in. If we were a little closer to the sun we would fry and a little further and we would be in an ice age. (not neccessarily true seeing that we are actually closer to the sun during our winter, but I digress) But it seems that you are saying the distance isn't that important because plants could survive just fine without it.
quote:
And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years
Seems that was the purpose of the sun, moon and stars, to seperate the night from the day. Apparently, before this there was no seperation. The way you make it sound that wasn't neccessary...three 24hr days had already passed.
quote:
He is lying in the sense that it could not have possibly taken only one (24 hour) day.
If we are saying God couldn't have done it in a mere 24 hrs, then you are saying that he (God Almighty all-powerful miraculous miracle worker) needed an entire 24 hrs to do something he could have done in an instant, a nanosecond. Why limit him? Then again to God a day is as a thousand years and vise versa.
Let's not forget you basic, garden variety death while we're at it Lindy.
Hey thanks man.. I knew that God dude just couldn't be trusted. Never could put my finger on why, though.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the reagular old garden variety death on a massive scale. Maybe I don't know about this, but was the natural extinction of entire species part of God's plan? I don't know of any examples. Usually, extinction involves large scale natual disaster or humans. Without those two things animals and nature tend to have a fluctuating balance. Supposedly, God wanted two or seven of every animal on the ark. He wanted to save them, protect them. Later....apparently not so much. If the Peleg idea is true and God seperated the continents in a short cataclysmic event, causing the death of many animals and the extinction of many species, as it would have... then why the lack of concern for those animals at that time. Did they sin against God after the flood? ;)-->
If the whole Peleg thing is true, it makes God look like he is just trying things out. If the point of the flood and the seperation of continents was to make it so that evil wouldn't congrigate and overrun the earth, then why start with the flood? The seperation of continents seems to have worked for much longer than the flood did, start with that.
I managed to become engrossed in reading various Christian writings. A lot of it is fascinating. I really need to get to bed, but I wanted to post this quote first. I’d not known of it before tonight.
quote:
What man of intelligence, I ask, will consider as a reasonable statement that the first and the second and the third day, in which there are said to be both morning and evening, existed without sun and moon and stars, while the first day was even without a heaven? … I do not think anyone will doubt that these are figurative expressions.
I understand that it’s easy and probably tempting to write off what I’ve said as being anti-Christian and anti-Biblical, because I am not a Christian and I don’t accept the Bible as being authoritative. But many Christians are saying pretty much the same things I have said. I’ll post a few links. All of these are creationist, in the sense that they believe in God as Creator. All are “old earth,” meaning they accept the ages of the universe and earth to be billions of years. I don’t agree with everything any of these folks say, but I respect their intellectual honesty and their faith (though I don’t share it).
Answers in Creation is an interesting site, which seems to be pretty honest with both science and the Bible. It has a lot of good information, of interest even to an unbeliever like me. Their Articles are well worth perusing. Their Rebuttal Articles include pretty much all the criticism of young earth creationism I have raised, plus much more. For a Christian attempting to sort out various ideas promoted by other Christians, I would think they’d be useful.
Perspectives on Theistic Evolution takes the position that the scientific theory of evolution is consistent with Christianity. It explores this from a scientific perspective and from a theological perspective.
Reasons to Believe has a lot of good information, from the perspective of a Christian geologist. It promotes ID theory, which I don’t agree is a valid scientific theory, but I’m all for people exploring it and writing about it.
I’ve looked at several other good sites, but these three pretty much cover everything on them, or link to them.
For all the spirited debate about matters not directly related to the actual thread topic, I think that any person, Christian or not, can get plenty of information on that topic by following some of the links posted to the thread, including the above three, and yes, also the AiG link HCW posted.
I've read your previous posts since my last two and have only had time to skim the rest of other people's posts this morning as I have an early appointment.
I wanted to say this before I go though.
Thank you for continuing to discuss this topic in a basically calm and rational way. Although we are on the 'opposite sides' of the fence on this one, I appreciate 'arguing' with you more than 985 of Christians I've ever seen, met or even heard of.
That speaks highly of you as a human being. My actual position on the Bible, Christianity, et.al. has EVOLVED to where it is now. I no longer see people so categically, I see, and attempt to deal with people as individuals. AN indivudual, by his thought, beliefs, and actions may place himself into a variety of categories. These, like an amoeba can and do change dynamically.
For example: utilizing some words you used. A "Christian" can show himself an "idiot" as he speaks "bogus" stuff he thinks the "Bible" says about "science."
I think we can interject, all of the terms we've used here and apply them to many of the people on both sides of the debate at large.
Since I have torn down my personal veils of separation in my own thinking, I just - don't - care, really, about anything that separates us as human beings.
That, new, evolved thinking, for me has, I believe, helped me to see God more clearly and understand the Bible AND what I know of science better.
Your last post makes it clear to me, as your previouse ones, at worst, have indicated, thay you and I probably agree on this more that we disagree.
Example:
quote:
Originally posted by Long Gone:
Answers in Creation is an interesting site, which seems to be pretty honest with both science and the Bible. It has a lot of good information, of interest even to an unbeliever like me. Their Articles are well worth perusing. Their Rebuttal Articles include pretty much all the criticism of young earth creationism I have raised, plus much more. For a Christian attempting to sort out various ideas promoted by other Christians, I would think they’d be useful.
That paragraph did an excellent job of saying what I feel about the AiG site., Basically, it is an interesting site with a good deal of information I think would be useful to anyone who wanted to read up on this stuff.
For the record. No I don't think of your last post as any typ of contrition. Were we actually having a spoken conversation we could have said what has been written here over days in a relatively few minutes.
I'm glad you didn't take my comments personally, I haven't, nor will I yours. Thank you.
I've enjoyed the conversation too, now I gotta run.
If the whole Peleg thing is true, it makes God look like he is just trying things out. If the point of the flood and the seperation of continents was to make it so that evil wouldn't congrigate and overrun the earth, then why start with the flood? The seperation of continents seems to have worked for much longer than the flood did, start with that.
anyway, sorry it is late.
Hi Lindy. Your statement about "the whole Peleg thing" is somewhat similar to LG's questions about light. We don't really know much about Peleg. Other than the fact that he was the son of Eber and the father of Reu, the entire volume of Biblical information about this man and his times is contained in just 14 words.
quote:
the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided;
We exWayfers think we understand those 14 words, but do we really?
We've all been taught that our seven continents used to be one land mass, dubbed Pangea. The Way's "scientifically precise" Bible approach demands that we corroborate accepted Geology with Theology, so they point to these 14 words about Peleg and declare that this is the Biblical documentation of the breakup of Pangea.
Maybe that's correct, but it's not much to go on.
Imho, it's the flip-side of the paleontologist trying to recontstruct an entire skeleton of an extinct creature based on a jawbone and a claw.
JerryB, I am with ya on the Peleg thing. I wonder how much we really know about the entire Bible, much less 14 words of it. Although, having been taught this stuff for so many years, I tend to look at it as, "if this were true, what would it mean about these other issues?".
I used to wonder how they could construct a skeleton out of just a few bones or a skull, until I took a class where we studied both current and fossilised bones. What you can learn from a skull or leg bone is astonishing. You know the song...the leg bone is connected to the and on and on.
I used to wonder when I saw archeological digs how they could pick out a house that has decomposed into dirt from the rest of the dirt. Then I did a dig at Jamestown. It became abundantly clear.
There are many things that I haven't understood until I got some first hand experience...an issue we all have to deal with.
I have a piece of wood on my desk that I found on the beach last summer. It appears to be oak because of the dot and dash tight grain. It's 1/4 of a circle that would fit into a 12x12 inch square. It's approximately 2 inches wide. On one end is an open 45 degree and the other end a closed 45 degree miter. On the closed 45 is a 3/8 th inch dowel. The piece is definitely from a boat made of wood and must be a port.
On the back side is another piece of wood that is square to the radius. It has a black tar like surface. Whiff, whiff. Smells like a new rubber tire. It is a an adhesive. Ahhh, there are lines pressed into the adhesive indicating a square piece of glass was once held in place.
The 3/8 th inch dowel on the front is a plug. On the back is a 1/8 th inch hole indicating a fastening device such as a nail or screw.
Okay. My point is, I only have a piece of wood, but I can damn well tell that it was from a boat that was built within the last 30 years. But the wood from the boat would obviously be older.
What I really would like to know is if this piece was from a "May Day, May Day" ?
forgive me that i can not find the quote on this thread about people being angry toward twi and that's why they post. I wish I could find that quote because I would like to say something in regard to it.
Since this thread offers a variety of thought I add this one.
I was just cruising First St. Jax Be last Friday noon and pulled into a parking space next to a handicap space. There was a Ranger XLT in that space next to me equipped with a device secured to the tail gate to load and unload a wheel chair, which i call all wheel chairs "chariot". I use to drive one, a chariot that is.
Beautiful day.
Opened my windows for that breeze and began a write.
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dmiller
What is *figurative* about one verse backing another up, using the same words?
And it still doesn't say *rainbow*.
(but ya do have me thinking about the dinosaurs, and the F.O.B thing, Lindy!)
:D-->
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LG
HCW,
Had a little delay.
I’ll address your points by the same numbers that you used.
(1) Nothing in my words you quoted discredits God in any way. The “if” statement assumes that the Bible is inspired by God. Surely you know that many Bible-believing Christians do not believe that the days of Genesis are literal days. If you don’t know that, then you know less about your Christian brethren than I do. Some Bible literalists believe that the verse is literal but that “day” literally means “unspecified period of time,” which is one definition for it. The other two are “daytime” and “24-hour period.” Some Bible-believing Christians take most of the Bible literally, but think that the enumeration of days in Genesis 1 is a literary device. Some Christians take the Bible less literally than the previous groups but believe that it is inspired by God and look to it more for the heart of what it says than the letter. There are three different groups of Christians, all of whom honor God, who disagree with you. I’m sure there are others who don’t quite fit into the groups I listed.
Re: “’Long Gone’ is a term that YOU use to represent the literal YOU. Its not a figure of speech, emphasizing something ABOUT you.” You've got that backwards. “Long Gone” is a screen name that refers to my GreaseSpot persona, which only represents a tiny part of who I am, and doesn’t even do that well. The name is also a play on one small thing about me, that I am “long gone” from TWI. In another sense, it's just the name applied to a GreaseSpot account. Anyone with access to my computer can post with the "Long Gone" screen name and change the profile. (Actually, anyone with access to any of three computers or any of my backup CDs, so they can copy a cookies file, can access my GS account. I never sign off.)
(2) I haven’t posted a single link to a site that discredits people who believe in God or people who love God. Regarding the quote, that’s as silly as saying that calling me an idiot discredits redheads. (It might discredit idiots, though.)
(3) Not believing a proposition is not the same as arguing against belief of the proposition, or as claiming that the proposition is false. They’re actually three different things.
(4) “Some factual claims or arguments of some people” means just what it says. That a Christian makes a claim does not make it a claim of Christianity. Later, I’ll post some links to sites where Bible-believing Christians make the same sorts of arguments against the same sorts of claims and arguments I have. If I have been arguing against Christianity, then those Christians are too. Also, saying that a statement is false is not the same as saying that the person making the statement is lying.
(4a) and (4b) Addressed in (2).
(5) Re: “Divine Creation in 7 ordinary days is NOT a claim of Christianity?” I said “basic Christian doctrine,” not “a claim of Christianity,” but “Divine Creation in 7 ordinary days” is neither. It may be the claim of some Christians, but most of the young earth creationists I’ve read say the creation happened in 6 ordinary days, then God rested. Plenty of other Christians disagree.
(6) Re: “Just WHAT are you referring to?” I’m referring to basic Christian doctrine. God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and Earth. Jesus Christ, only begotten son, crucified, died, buried, rose, ascended, will come again. Man created special, fall of man, consequences, need for redemption, redemption by grace, eternal life. That sort of thing. I don’t want to refute basic Christian doctrine and I couldn’t if I wanted to. I like Christianity. I just have not, for all I’ve tried in the past, been able to believe it. At this point, if there is a God who wants me, He’ll have to knock louder or something. If I’m just being hardheaded, like some Christians think, maybe He’ll have to knock me over the head. Otherwise, I’ll just go on living the best I can, which is pretty much according to Christian morals anyway.
Re: “Evidently you're limiting your scorn to the concept of the young earth and creation in 7 days? and only wish to rebuke those who believe that and refute their claims.” Actually, that’s a little strong. It doesn’t bother me one bit for people to believe those concepts. It bothers me that they trash honest science. Even that wouldn’t bother me much if they kept it among themselves, but they don’t. They keep trying to mess with science education.
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lindyhopper
Well, unless JC is an actual ccornerstone, an actual tent stake, or an actual battle bow, I would say the verses are figurative.
;)-->
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lindyhopper
I don't think it is symantics that LG is challenging you with. You want to be literal, well, literally you can't have a day without the sun. You just have cold cold night. That is if you can have a night without a day. Dark and cold.
I know, but God said let there be light on the first day.
I know that many ID folks like to point out the perfect balance that the earth is in. If we were a little closer to the sun we would fry and a little further and we would be in an ice age. (not neccessarily true seeing that we are actually closer to the sun during our winter, but I digress) But it seems that you are saying the distance isn't that important because plants could survive just fine without it.
Seems that was the purpose of the sun, moon and stars, to seperate the night from the day. Apparently, before this there was no seperation. The way you make it sound that wasn't neccessary...three 24hr days had already passed.
If we are saying God couldn't have done it in a mere 24 hrs, then you are saying that he (God Almighty all-powerful miraculous miracle worker) needed an entire 24 hrs to do something he could have done in an instant, a nanosecond. Why limit him? Then again to God a day is as a thousand years and vise versa.
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lindyhopper
Oh yeah, I forgot about the reagular old garden variety death on a massive scale. Maybe I don't know about this, but was the natural extinction of entire species part of God's plan? I don't know of any examples. Usually, extinction involves large scale natual disaster or humans. Without those two things animals and nature tend to have a fluctuating balance. Supposedly, God wanted two or seven of every animal on the ark. He wanted to save them, protect them. Later....apparently not so much. If the Peleg idea is true and God seperated the continents in a short cataclysmic event, causing the death of many animals and the extinction of many species, as it would have... then why the lack of concern for those animals at that time. Did they sin against God after the flood?
;)-->
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lindyhopper
One other thing.
side note
If the whole Peleg thing is true, it makes God look like he is just trying things out. If the point of the flood and the seperation of continents was to make it so that evil wouldn't congrigate and overrun the earth, then why start with the flood? The seperation of continents seems to have worked for much longer than the flood did, start with that.
anyway, sorry it is late.
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LG
I managed to become engrossed in reading various Christian writings. A lot of it is fascinating. I really need to get to bed, but I wanted to post this quote first. I’d not known of it before tonight.
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LG
I understand that it’s easy and probably tempting to write off what I’ve said as being anti-Christian and anti-Biblical, because I am not a Christian and I don’t accept the Bible as being authoritative. But many Christians are saying pretty much the same things I have said. I’ll post a few links. All of these are creationist, in the sense that they believe in God as Creator. All are “old earth,” meaning they accept the ages of the universe and earth to be billions of years. I don’t agree with everything any of these folks say, but I respect their intellectual honesty and their faith (though I don’t share it).
Answers in Creation is an interesting site, which seems to be pretty honest with both science and the Bible. It has a lot of good information, of interest even to an unbeliever like me. Their Articles are well worth perusing. Their Rebuttal Articles include pretty much all the criticism of young earth creationism I have raised, plus much more. For a Christian attempting to sort out various ideas promoted by other Christians, I would think they’d be useful.
Perspectives on Theistic Evolution takes the position that the scientific theory of evolution is consistent with Christianity. It explores this from a scientific perspective and from a theological perspective.
Reasons to Believe has a lot of good information, from the perspective of a Christian geologist. It promotes ID theory, which I don’t agree is a valid scientific theory, but I’m all for people exploring it and writing about it.
I’ve looked at several other good sites, but these three pretty much cover everything on them, or link to them.
For all the spirited debate about matters not directly related to the actual thread topic, I think that any person, Christian or not, can get plenty of information on that topic by following some of the links posted to the thread, including the above three, and yes, also the AiG link HCW posted.
I've enjoyed the discussion.
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HCW
Hey Long Gone;
I've read your previous posts since my last two and have only had time to skim the rest of other people's posts this morning as I have an early appointment.
I wanted to say this before I go though.
Thank you for continuing to discuss this topic in a basically calm and rational way. Although we are on the 'opposite sides' of the fence on this one, I appreciate 'arguing' with you more than 985 of Christians I've ever seen, met or even heard of.
That speaks highly of you as a human being. My actual position on the Bible, Christianity, et.al. has EVOLVED to where it is now. I no longer see people so categically, I see, and attempt to deal with people as individuals. AN indivudual, by his thought, beliefs, and actions may place himself into a variety of categories. These, like an amoeba can and do change dynamically.
For example: utilizing some words you used. A "Christian" can show himself an "idiot" as he speaks "bogus" stuff he thinks the "Bible" says about "science."
I think we can interject, all of the terms we've used here and apply them to many of the people on both sides of the debate at large.
Since I have torn down my personal veils of separation in my own thinking, I just - don't - care, really, about anything that separates us as human beings.
That, new, evolved thinking, for me has, I believe, helped me to see God more clearly and understand the Bible AND what I know of science better.
Your last post makes it clear to me, as your previouse ones, at worst, have indicated, thay you and I probably agree on this more that we disagree.
Example:
That paragraph did an excellent job of saying what I feel about the AiG site., Basically, it is an interesting site with a good deal of information I think would be useful to anyone who wanted to read up on this stuff.
For the record. No I don't think of your last post as any typ of contrition. Were we actually having a spoken conversation we could have said what has been written here over days in a relatively few minutes.
I'm glad you didn't take my comments personally, I haven't, nor will I yours. Thank you.
I've enjoyed the conversation too, now I gotta run.
to 'plagurize' jerry's sign off.
- peace
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Jbarrax
Hi Lindy. Your statement about "the whole Peleg thing" is somewhat similar to LG's questions about light. We don't really know much about Peleg. Other than the fact that he was the son of Eber and the father of Reu, the entire volume of Biblical information about this man and his times is contained in just 14 words.
We exWayfers think we understand those 14 words, but do we really?
We've all been taught that our seven continents used to be one land mass, dubbed Pangea. The Way's "scientifically precise" Bible approach demands that we corroborate accepted Geology with Theology, so they point to these 14 words about Peleg and declare that this is the Biblical documentation of the breakup of Pangea.
Maybe that's correct, but it's not much to go on.
Imho, it's the flip-side of the paleontologist trying to recontstruct an entire skeleton of an extinct creature based on a jawbone and a claw.
Peace
JerryB
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
If I could only find that missing rib, i'd like to have it back and start all over again
damn
sounds like a country song
pass the bbq
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
THE ILIAD
by Homer
translated by Samuel Butler
Book I
Book II
Book III
Book IV
Book V
Book VI
Book VII
Book VIII
Book IX
Book X
Book XI
Book XII
Book XIII
Book XIV
Book XV
Book XVI
Book XVII
Book XVIII
Book XIX
Book XX
Book XXI
Book XXII
Book XXIII
Book XXIV
BOOK I
Sing, O goddess, the anger of Achilles son of Peleus, that brought
countless ills upon the Achaeans. Many a brave soul did it send
hurrying down to Hades, and many a hero did it yield a prey to dogs
and vultures, for so were the counsels of Jove fulfilled from the
day on which the son of Atreus, king of men, and great Achilles, first
fell out with one another.
And which of the gods was it that set them on to quarrel? It was the
son of Jove and Leto; for he was angry with the king and sent a
pestilence upon the host to plague the people, because the son of
Atreus had dishonoured Chryses his priest. Now Chryses had come to the
ships of the Achaeans to free his daughter, and had brought with him a
great ransom: moreover he bore in his hand the sceptre of Apollo
wreathed with a suppliant's wreath and he besought the Achaeans, but
most of all the two sons of Atreus, who were their chiefs.
"Sons of Atreus," he cried, "and all other Achaeans, may the gods
who dwell in Olympus grant you to sack the city of Priam, and to reach
your homes in safety; but free my daughter, and accept a ransom for
her, in reverence to Apollo, son of Jove."
On this the rest of the Achaeans with one voice were for
respecting the priest and taking the ransom that he offered; but not
so Agamemnon, who spoke fiercely to him and sent him roughly away.
"Old man," said he, "let me not find you tarrying about our ships, nor
yet coming hereafter. Your sceptre of the god and your wreath shall
profit you nothing. I will not free her. She shall grow old in my
house at Argos far from her own home, busying herself with her loom
and visiting my couch; so go, and do not provoke me or it shall be the
worse for you."
The old man feared him and obeyed. Not a word he spoke, but went
by the shore of the sounding sea and prayed apart to King Apollo
whom lovely Leto had borne. "Hear me," he cried, "O god of the
silver bow, that protectest Chryse and holy Cilla and rulest Tenedos
with thy might, hear me oh thou of Sminthe. If I have ever decked your
temple with garlands, or burned your thigh-bones in fat of bulls or
goats, grant my prayer, and let your arrows avenge these my tears upon
the Danaans."
Thus did he pray, and Apollo heard his prayer. He came down
furious from the summits of Olympus, with his bow and his quiver
upon his shoulder, and the arrows rattled on his back with the rage
that trembled within him. He sat himself down away from the ships with
a face as dark as night, and his silver bow rang death as he shot
his arrow in the midst of them. First he smote their mules and their
hounds, but presently he aimed his shafts at the people themselves,
and all day long the pyres of the dead were burning.
For nine whole days he shot his arrows among the people, but upon
the tenth day Achilles called them in assembly- moved thereto by Juno,
who saw the Achaeans in their death-throes and had compassion upon
them. Then, when they were got together, he rose and spoke among them.
"Son of Atreus," said he, "I deem that we should now turn roving
home if we would escape destruction, for we are being cut down by
war and pestilence at once. Let us ask some priest or prophet, or some
reader of dreams (for dreams, too, are of Jove) who can tell us why
Phoebus Apollo is so angry, and say whether it is for some vow that we
have broken, or hecatomb that we have not offered, and whether he will
accept the savour of lambs and goats without blemish, so as to take
away the plague from us."
With these words he sat down, and Calchas son of Thestor, wisest
of augurs, who knew things past present and to come, rose to speak. He
it was who had guided the Achaeans with their fleet to Ilius,
through the prophesyings with which Phoebus Apollo had inspired him.
With all sincerity and goodwill he addressed them thus:-
"Achilles, loved of heaven, you bid me tell you about the anger of
King Apollo, I will therefore do so; but consider first and swear that
you will stand by me heartily in word and deed, for I know that I
shall offend one who rules the Argives with might, to whom all the
Achaeans are in subjection. A plain man cannot stand against the anger
of a king, who if he swallow his displeasure now, will yet nurse
revenge till he has wreaked it. Consider, therefore, whether or no you
will protect me."
And Achilles answered, "Fear not, but speak as it is borne in upon
you from heaven, for by Apollo, Calchas, to whom you pray, and whose
oracles you reveal to us, not a Danaan at our ships shall lay his hand
upon you, while I yet live to look upon the face of the earth- no, not
though you name Agamemnon himself, who is by far the foremost of the
Achaeans."
Thereon the seer spoke boldly. "The god," he said, "is angry neither
about vow nor hecatomb, but for his priest's sake, whom Agamemnon
has dishonoured, in that he would not free his daughter nor take a
ransom for her; therefore has he sent these evils upon us, and will
yet send others. He will not deliver the Danaans from this
pestilence till Agamemnon has restored the girl without fee or
ransom to her father, and has sent a holy hecatomb to Chryse. Thus
we may perhaps appease him."
With these words he sat down, and Agamemnon rose in anger. His heart
was black with rage, and his eyes flashed fire as he scowled on
Calchas and said, "Seer of evil, you never yet prophesied smooth
things concerning me, but have ever loved to foretell that which was
evil. You have brought me neither comfort nor performance; and now you
come seeing among Danaans, and saying that Apollo has plagued us
because I would not take a ransom for this girl, the daughter of
Chryses. I have set my heart on keeping her in my own house, for I
love her better even than my own wife Clytemnestra, whose peer she
is alike in form and feature, in understanding and accomplishments.
Still I will give her up if I must, for I would have the people
live, not die; but you must find me a prize instead, or I alone
among the Argives shall be without one. This is not well; for you
behold, all of you, that my prize is to go elsewhither."
And Achilles answered, "Most noble son of Atreus, covetous beyond
all mankind, how shall the Achaeans find you another prize? We have no
common store from which to take one. Those we took from the cities
have been awarded; we cannot disallow the awards that have been made
already. Give this girl, therefore, to the god, and if ever Jove
grants us to sack the city of Troy we will requite you three and
fourfold."
Then Agamemnon said, "Achilles, valiant though you be, you shall not
thus outwit me. You shall not overreach and you shall not persuade me.
Are you to keep your own prize, while I sit tamely under my loss and
give up the girl at your bidding? Let the Achaeans find me a prize
in fair exchange to my liking, or I will come and take your own, or
that of Ajax or of Ulysses; and he to whomsoever I may come shall
rue my coming. But of this we will take thought hereafter; for the
present, let us draw a ship into the sea, and find a crew for her
expressly; let us put a hecatomb on board, and let us send Chryseis
also; further, let some chief man among us be in command, either Ajax,
or Idomeneus, or yourself, son of Peleus, mighty warrior that you are,
that we may offer sacrifice and appease the the anger of the god."
Achilles scowled at him and answered, "You are steeped in
insolence and lust of gain. With what heart can any of the Achaeans do
your bidding, either on foray or in open fighting? I came not
warring here for any ill the Trojans had done me. I have no quarrel
with them. They have not raided my cattle nor my horses, nor cut
down my harvests on the rich plains of Phthia; for between me and them
there is a great space, both mountain and sounding sea. We have
followed you, Sir Insolence! for your pleasure, not ours- to gain
satisfaction from the Trojans for your shameless self and for
Menelaus. You forget this, and threaten to rob me of the prize for
which I have toiled, and which the sons of the Achaeans have given me.
Never when the Achaeans sack any rich city of the Trojans do I receive
so good a prize as you do, though it is my hands that do the better
part of the fighting. When the sharing comes, your share is far the
largest, and I, forsooth, must go back to my ships, take what I can
get and be thankful, when my labour of fighting is done. Now,
therefore, I shall go back to Phthia; it will be much better for me to
return home with my ships, for I will not stay here dishonoured to
gather gold and substance for you."
And Agamemnon answered, "Fly if you will, I shall make you no
prayers to stay you. I have others here who will do me honour, and
above all Jove, the lord of counsel. There is no king here so
hateful to me as you are, for you are ever quarrelsome and ill
affected. What though you be brave? Was it not heaven that made you
so? Go home, then, with your ships and comrades to lord it over the
Myrmidons. I care neither for you nor for your anger; and thus will
I do: since Phoebus Apollo is taking Chryseis from me, I shall send
her with my ship and my followers, but I shall come to your tent and
take your own prize Briseis, that you may learn how much stronger I am
than you are, and that another may fear to set himself up as equal
or comparable with me."
The son of Peleus was furious, and his heart within his shaggy
breast was divided whether to draw his sword, push the others aside,
and kill the son of Atreus, or to restrain himself and check his
anger. While he was thus in two minds, and was drawing his mighty
sword from its scabbard, Minerva came down from heaven (for Juno had
sent her in the love she bore to them both), and seized the son of
Peleus by his yellow hair, visible to him alone, for of the others
no man could see her. Achilles turned in amaze, and by the fire that
flashed from her eyes at once knew that she was Minerva. "Why are
you here," said he, "daughter of aegis-bearing Jove? To see the
pride of Agamemnon, son of Atreus? Let me tell you- and it shall
surely be- he shall pay for this insolence with his life."
And Minerva said, "I come from heaven, if you will hear me, to bid
you stay your anger. Juno has sent me, who cares for both of you
alike. Cease, then, this brawling, and do not draw your sword; rail at
him if you will, and your railing will not be vain, for I tell you-
and it shall surely be- that you shall hereafter receive gifts three
times as splendid by reason of this present insult. Hold, therefore,
and obey."
"Goddess," answered Achilles, "however angry a man may be, he must
do as you two command him. This will be best, for the gods ever hear
the prayers of him who has obeyed them."
He stayed his hand on the silver hilt of his sword, and thrust it
back into the scabbard as Minerva bade him. Then she went back to
Olympus among the other gods, and to the house of aegis-bearing Jove.
But the son of Peleus again began railing at the son of Atreus,
for he was still in a rage. "Wine-bibber," he cried, "with the face of
a dog and the heart of a hind, you never dare to go out with the
host in fight, nor yet with our chosen men in ambuscade. You shun this
as you do death itself. You had rather go round and rob his prizes
from any man who contradicts you. You devour your people, for you
are king over a feeble folk; otherwise, son of Atreus, henceforward
you would insult no man. Therefore I say, and swear it with a great
oath- nay, by this my sceptre which shalt sprout neither leaf nor
shoot, nor bud anew from the day on which it left its parent stem upon
the mountains- for the axe stripped it of leaf and bark, and now the
sons of the Achaeans bear it as judges and guardians of the decrees of
heaven- so surely and solemnly do I swear that hereafter they shall
look fondly for Achilles and shall not find him. In the day of your
distress, when your men fall dying by the murderous hand of Hector,
you shall not know how to help them, and shall rend your heart with
rage for the hour when you offered insult to the bravest of the
Achaeans."
With this the son of Peleus dashed his gold-bestudded sceptre on the
ground and took his seat, while the son of Atreus was beginning
fiercely from his place upon the other side. Then uprose
smooth-tongued Nestor, the facile speaker of the Pylians, and the
words fell from his lips sweeter than honey. Two generations of men
born and bred in Pylos had passed away under his rule, and he was
now reigning over the third. With all sincerity and goodwill,
therefore, he addressed them thus:-
"Of a truth," he said, "a great sorrow has befallen the Achaean
land. Surely Priam with his sons would rejoice, and the Trojans be
glad at heart if they could hear this quarrel between you two, who are
so excellent in fight and counsel. I am older than either of you;
therefore be guided by me. Moreover I have been the familiar friend of
men even greater than you are, and they did not disregard my counsels.
Never again can I behold such men as Pirithous and Dryas shepherd of
his people, or as Caeneus, Exadius, godlike Polyphemus, and Theseus
son of Aegeus, peer of the immortals. These were the mightiest men
ever born upon this earth: mightiest were they, and when they fought
the fiercest tribes of mountain savages they utterly overthrew them. I
came from distant Pylos, and went about among them, for they would
have me come, and I fought as it was in me to do. Not a man now living
could withstand them, but they heard my words, and were persuaded by
them. So be it also with yourselves, for this is the more excellent
way. Therefore, Agamemnon, though you be strong, take not this girl
away, for the sons of the Achaeans have already given her to Achilles;
and you, Achilles, strive not further with the king, for no man who by
the grace of Jove wields a sceptre has like honour with Agamemnon. You
are strong, and have a goddess for your mother; but Agamemnon is
stronger than you, for he has more people under him. Son of Atreus,
check your anger, I implore you; end this quarrel with Achilles, who
in the day of battle is a tower of strength to the Achaeans."
And Agamemnon answered, "Sir, all that you have said is true, but
this fellow must needs become our lord and master: he must be lord
of all, king of all, and captain of all, and this shall hardly be.
Granted that the gods have made him a great warrior, have they also
given him the right to speak with railing?"
Achilles interrupted him. "I should be a mean coward," he cried,
"were I to give in to you in all things. Order other people about, not
me, for I shall obey no longer. Furthermore I say- and lay my saying
to your heart- I shall fight neither you nor any man about this
girl, for those that take were those also that gave. But of all else
that is at my ship you shall carry away nothing by force. Try, that
others may see; if you do, my spear shall be reddened with your
blood."
When they had quarrelled thus angrily, they rose, and broke up the
assembly at the ships of the Achaeans. The son of Peleus went back
to his tents and ships with the son of Menoetius and his company,
while Agamemnon drew a vessel into the water and chose a crew of
twenty oarsmen. He escorted Chryseis on board and sent moreover a
hecatomb for the god. And Ulysses went as captain.
These, then, went on board and sailed their ways over the sea. But
the son of Atreus bade the people purify themselves; so they
purified themselves and cast their filth into the sea. Then they
offered hecatombs of bulls and goats without blemish on the sea-shore,
and the smoke with the savour of their sacrifice rose curling up
towards heaven.
Thus did they busy themselves throughout the host. But Agamemnon did
not forget the threat that he had made Achilles, and called his trusty
messengers and squires Talthybius and Eurybates. "Go," said he, "to
the tent of Achilles, son of Peleus; take Briseis by the hand and
bring her hither; if he will not give her I shall come with others and
take her- which will press him harder."
He charged them straightly further and dismissed them, whereon
they went their way sorrowfully by the seaside, till they came to
the tents and ships of the Myrmidons. They found Achilles sitting by
his tent and his ships, and ill-pleased he was when he beheld them.
They stood fearfully and reverently before him, and never a word did
they speak, but he knew them and said, "Welcome, heralds, messengers
of gods and men; draw near; my quarrel is not with you but with
Agamemnon who has sent you for the girl Briseis. Therefore, Patroclus,
bring her and give her to them, but let them be witnesses by the
blessed gods, by mortal men, and by the fierceness of Agamemnon's
anger, that if ever again there be need of me to save the people
from ruin, they shall seek and they shall not find. Agamemnon is mad
with rage and knows not how to look before and after that the Achaeans
may fight by their ships in safety."
Patroclus did as his dear comrade had bidden him. He brought Briseis
from the tent and gave her over to the heralds, who took her with them
to the ships of the Achaeans- and the woman was loth to go. Then
Achilles went all alone by the side of the hoar sea, weeping and
looking out upon the boundless waste of waters. He raised his hands in
prayer to his immortal mother, "Mother," he cried, "you bore me doomed
to live but for a little season; surely Jove, who thunders from
Olympus, might have made that little glorious. It is not so.
Agamemnon, son of Atreus, has done me dishonour, and has robbed me
of my prize by force."
As he spoke he wept aloud, and his mother heard him where she was
sitting in the depths of the sea hard by the old man her father.
Forthwith she rose as it were a grey mist out of the waves, sat down
before him as he stood weeping, caressed him with her hand, and
said, "My son, why are you weeping? What is it that grieves you?
Keep it not from me, but tell me, that we may know it together."
Achilles drew a deep sigh and said, "You know it; why tell you
what you know well already? We went to Thebe the strong city of
Eetion, sacked it, and brought hither the spoil. The sons of the
Achaeans shared it duly among themselves, and chose lovely Chryseis as
the meed of Agamemnon; but Chryses, priest of Apollo, came to the
ships of the Achaeans to free his daughter, and brought with him a
great ransom: moreover he bore in his hand the sceptre of Apollo,
wreathed with a suppliant's wreath, and he besought the Achaeans,
but most of all the two sons of Atreus who were their chiefs.
"On this the rest of the Achaeans with one voice were for respecting
the priest and taking the ransom that he offered; but not so
Agamemnon, who spoke fiercely to him and sent him roughly away. So
he went back in anger, and Apollo, who loved him dearly, heard his
prayer. Then the god sent a deadly dart upon the Argives, and the
people died thick on one another, for the arrows went everywhither
among the wide host of the Achaeans. At last a seer in the fulness
of his knowledge declared to us the oracles of Apollo, and I was
myself first to say that we should appease him. Whereon the son of
Atreus rose in anger, and threatened that which he has since done. The
Achaeans are now taking the girl in a ship to Chryse, and sending
gifts of sacrifice to the god; but the heralds have just taken from my
tent the daughter of Briseus, whom the Achaeans had awarded to myself.
"Help your brave son, therefore, if you are able. Go to Olympus, and
if you have ever done him service in word or deed, implore the aid
of Jove. Ofttimes in my father's house have I heard you glory in
that you alone of the immortals saved the son of Saturn from ruin,
when the others, with Juno, Neptune, and Pallas Minerva would have put
him in bonds. It was you, goddess, who delivered him by calling to
Olympus the hundred-handed monster whom gods call Briareus, but men
Aegaeon, for he is stronger even than his father; when therefore he
took his seat all-glorious beside the son of Saturn, the other gods
were afraid, and did not bind him. Go, then, to him, remind him of all
this, clasp his knees, and bid him give succour to the Trojans. Let
the Achaeans be hemmed in at the sterns of their ships, and perish
on the sea-shore, that they may reap what joy they may of their
king, and that Agamemnon may rue his blindness in offering insult to
the foremost of the Achaeans."
Thetis wept and answered, "My son, woe is me that I should have
borne or suckled you. Would indeed that you had lived your span free
from all sorrow at your ships, for it is all too brief; alas, that you
should be at once short of life and long of sorrow above your peers:
woe, therefore, was the hour in which I bore you; nevertheless I
will go to the snowy heights of Olympus, and tell this tale to Jove,
if he will hear our prayer: meanwhile stay where you are with your
ships, nurse your anger against the Achaeans, and hold aloof from
fight. For Jove went yesterday to Oceanus, to a feast among the
Ethiopians, and the other gods went with him. He will return to
Olympus twelve days hence; I will then go to his mansion paved with
bronze and will beseech him; nor do I doubt that I shall be able to
persuade him."
On this she left him, still furious at the loss of her that had been
taken from him. Meanwhile Ulysses reached Chryse with the hecatomb.
When they had come inside the harbour they furled the sails and laid
them in the ship's hold; they slackened the forestays, lowered the
mast into its place, and rowed the ship to the place where they
would have her lie; there they cast out their mooring-stones and
made fast the hawsers. They then got out upon the sea-shore and landed
the hecatomb for Apollo; Chryseis also left the ship, and Ulysses
led her to the altar to deliver her into the hands of her father.
"Chryses," said he, "King Agamemnon has sent me to bring you back your
child, and to offer sacrifice to Apollo on behalf of the Danaans, that
we may propitiate the god, who has now brought sorrow upon the
Argives."
So saying he gave the girl over to her father, who received her
gladly, and they ranged the holy hecatomb all orderly round the
altar of the god. They washed their hands and took up the
barley-meal to sprinkle over the victims, while Chryses lifted up
his hands and prayed aloud on their behalf. "Hear me," he cried, "O
god of the silver bow, that protectest Chryse and holy Cilla, and
rulest Tenedos with thy might. Even as thou didst hear me aforetime
when I prayed, and didst press hardly upon the Achaeans, so hear me
yet again, and stay this fearful pestilence from the Danaans."
Thus did he pray, and Apollo heard his prayer. When they had done
praying and sprinkling the barley-meal, they drew back the heads of
the victims and killed and flayed them. They cut out the
thigh-bones, wrapped them round in two layers of fat, set some
pieces of raw meat on the top of them, and then Chryses laid them on
the wood fire and poured wine over them, while the young men stood
near him with five-pronged spits in their hands. When the
thigh-bones were burned and they had tasted the inward meats, they cut
the rest up small, put the pieces upon the spits, roasted them till
they were done, and drew them off: then, when they had finished
their work and the feast was ready, they ate it, and every man had his
full share, so that all were satisfied. As soon as they had had enough
to eat and drink, pages filled the mixing-bowl with wine and water and
handed it round, after giving every man his drink-offering.
Thus all day long the young men worshipped the god with song,
hymning him and chaunting the joyous paean, and the god took
pleasure in their voices; but when the sun went down, and it came on
dark, they laid themselves down to sleep by the stern cables of the
ship, and when the child of morning, rosy-fingered Dawn, appeared they
again set sail for the host of the Achaeans. Apollo sent them a fair
wind, so they raised their mast and hoisted their white sails aloft.
As the sail bellied with the wind the ship flew through the deep
blue water, and the foam hissed against her bows as she sped onward.
When they reached the wide-stretching host of the Achaeans, they
drew the vessel ashore, high and dry upon the sands, set her strong
props beneath her, and went their ways to their own tents and ships.
But Achilles abode at his ships and nursed his anger. He went not to
the honourable assembly, and sallied not forth to fight, but gnawed at
his own heart, pining for battle and the war-cry.
Now after twelve days the immortal gods came back in a body to
Olympus, and Jove led the way. Thetis was not unmindful of the
charge her son had laid upon her, so she rose from under the sea and
went through great heaven with early morning to Olympus, where she
found the mighty son of Saturn sitting all alone upon its topmost
ridges. She sat herself down before him, and with her left hand seized
his knees, while with her right she caught him under the chin, and
besought him, saying-
"Father Jove, if I ever did you service in word or deed among the
immortals, hear my prayer, and do honour to my son, whose life is to
be cut short so early. King Agamemnon has dishonoured him by taking
his prize and keeping her. Honour him then yourself, Olympian lord
of counsel, and grant victory to the Trojans, till the Achaeans give
my son his due and load him with riches in requital."
Jove sat for a while silent, and without a word, but Thetis still
kept firm hold of his knees, and besought him a second time.
"Incline your head," said she, "and promise me surely, or else deny
me- for you have nothing to fear- that I may learn how greatly you
disdain me."
At this Jove was much troubled and answered, "I shall have trouble
if you set me quarrelling with Juno, for she will provoke me with
her taunting speeches; even now she is always railing at me before the
other gods and accusing me of giving aid to the Trojans. Go back
now, lest she should find out. I will consider the matter, and will
bring it about as wish. See, I incline my head that you believe me.
This is the most solemn that I can give to any god. I never recall
my word, or deceive, or fail to do what I say, when I have nodded my
head."
As he spoke the son of Saturn bowed his dark brows, and the
ambrosial locks swayed on his immortal head, till vast Olympus reeled.
When the pair had thus laid their plans, they parted- Jove to his
house, while the goddess quitted the splendour of Olympus, and plunged
into the depths of the sea. The gods rose from their seats, before the
coming of their sire. Not one of them dared to remain sitting, but all
stood up as he came among them. There, then, he took his seat. But
Juno, when she saw him, knew that he and the old merman's daughter,
silver-footed Thetis, had been hatching mischief, so she at once began
to upbraid him. "Trickster," she cried, "which of the gods have you
been taking into your counsels now? You are always settling matters in
secret behind my back, and have never yet told me, if you could help
it, one word of your intentions."
"Juno," replied the sire of gods and men, "you must not expect to be
informed of all my counsels. You are my wife, but you would find it
hard to understand them. When it is proper for you to hear, there is
no one, god or man, who will be told sooner, but when I mean to keep a
matter to myself, you must not pry nor ask questions."
"Dread son of Saturn," answered Juno, "what are you talking about?
I? Pry and ask questions? Never. I let you have your own way in
everything. Still, I have a strong misgiving that the old merman's
daughter Thetis has been talking you over, for she was with you and
had hold of your knees this self-same morning. I believe, therefore,
that you have been promising her to give glory to Achilles, and to
kill much people at the ships of the Achaeans."
"Wife," said Jove, "I can do nothing but you suspect me and find
it out. You will take nothing by it, for I shall only dislike you
the more, and it will go harder with you. Granted that it is as you
say; I mean to have it so; sit down and hold your tongue as I bid
you for if I once begin to lay my hands about you, though all heaven
were on your side it would profit you nothing."
On this Juno was frightened, so she curbed her stubborn will and sat
down in silence. But the heavenly beings were disquieted throughout
the house of Jove, till the cunning workman Vulcan began to try and
pacify his mother Juno. "It will be intolerable," said he, "if you two
fall to wrangling and setting heaven in an uproar about a pack of
mortals. If such ill counsels are to prevail, we shall have no
pleasure at our banquet. Let me then advise my mother- and she must
herself know that it will be better- to make friends with my dear
father Jove, lest he again scold her and disturb our feast. If the
Olympian Thunderer wants to hurl us all from our seats, he can do
so, for he is far the strongest, so give him fair words, and he will
then soon be in a good humour with us."
As he spoke, he took a double cup of nectar, and placed it in his
mother's hand. "Cheer up, my dear mother," said he, "and make the best
of it. I love you dearly, and should be very sorry to see you get a
thrashing; however grieved I might be, I could not help for there is
no standing against Jove. Once before when I was trying to help you,
he caught me by the foot and flung me from the heavenly threshold. All
day long from morn till eve, was I falling, till at sunset I came to
ground in the island of Lemnos, and there I lay, with very little life
left in me, till the Sintians came and tended me."
Juno smiled at this, and as she smiled she took the cup from her
son's hands. Then Vulcan drew sweet nectar from the mixing-bowl, and
served it round among the gods, going from left to right; and the
blessed gods laughed out a loud applause as they saw him ing
bustling about the heavenly mansion.
Thus through the livelong day to the going down of the sun they
feasted, and every one had his full share, so that all were satisfied.
Apollo struck his lyre, and the Muses lifted up their sweet voices,
calling and answering one another. But when the sun's glorious light
had faded, they went home to bed, each in his own abode, which lame
Vulcan with his consummate skill had fashioned for them. So Jove,
the Olympian Lord of Thunder, hied him to the bed in which he always
slept; and when he had got on to it he went to sleep, with Juno of the
golden throne by his side.
BOOK II
Now the other gods and the armed warriors on the plain slept
soundly, but Jove was wakeful, for he was thinking how to do honour to
Achilles, and destroyed much people at the ships of the Achaeans. In
the end he deemed it would be best to send a lying dream to King
Agamemnon; so he called one to him and said to it, "Lying Dream, go to
the ships of the Achaeans, into the tent of Agamemnon, and say to
him word to word as I now bid you. Tell him to get the Achaeans
instantly under arms, for he shall take Troy. There are no longer
divided counsels among the gods; Juno has brought them to her own
mind, and woe betides the Trojans."
The dream went when it had heard its message, and soon reached the
ships of the Achaeans. It sought Agamemnon son of Atreus and found him
in his tent, wrapped in a profound slumber. It hovered over his head
in the likeness of Nestor, son of Neleus, whom Agamemnon honoured
above all his councillors, and said:-
"You are sleeping, son of Atreus; one who has the welfare of his
host and so much other care upon his shoulders should dock his
sleep. Hear me at once, for I come as a messenger from Jove, who,
though he be not near, yet takes thought for you and pities you. He
bids you get the Achaeans instantly under arms, for you shall take
Troy. There are no longer divided counsels among the gods; Juno has
brought them over to her own mind, and woe betides the Trojans at
the hands of Jove. Remember this, and when you wake see that it does
not escape you."
The dream then left him, and he thought of things that were,
surely not to be accomplished. He thought that on that same day he was
to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind
of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for
Danaans and Trojans. Then presently he woke, with the divine message
still ringing in his ears; so he sat upright, and put on his soft
shirt so fair and new, and over this his heavy cloak. He bound his
sandals on to his comely feet, and slung his silver-studded sword
about his shoulders; then he took the imperishable staff of his
father, and sallied forth to the ships of the Achaeans.
The goddess Dawn now wended her way to vast Olympus that she might
herald day to Jove and to the other immortals, and Agamemnon sent
the criers round to call the people in assembly; so they called them
and the people gathered thereon. But first he summoned a meeting of
the elders at the ship of Nestor king of Pylos, and when they were
assembled he laid a cunning counsel before them.
"My friends," said he, "I have had a dream from heaven in the dead
of night, and its face and figure resembled none but Nestor's. It
hovered over my head and said, 'You are sleeping, son of Atreus; one
who has the welfare of his host and so much other care upon his
shoulders should dock his sleep. Hear me at once, for I am a messenger
from Jove, who, though he be not near, yet takes thought for you and
pities you. He bids you get the Achaeans instantly under arms, for you
shall take Troy. There are no longer divided counsels among the
gods; Juno has brought them over to her own mind, and woe betides
the Trojans at the hands of Jove. Remember this.' The dream then
vanished and I awoke. Let us now, therefore, arm the sons of the
Achaeans. But it will be well that I should first sound them, and to
this end I will tell them to fly with their ships; but do you others
go about among the host and prevent their doing so."
He then sat down, and Nestor the prince of Pylos with all
sincerity and goodwill addressed them thus: "My friends," said he,
"princes and councillors of the Argives, if any other man of the
Achaeans had told us of this dream we should have declared it false,
and would have had nothing to do with it. But he who has seen it is
the foremost man among us; we must therefore set about getting the
people under arms."
With this he led the way from the assembly, and the other sceptred
kings rose with him in obedience to the word of Agamemnon; but the
people pressed forward to hear. They swarmed like bees that sally from
some hollow cave and flit in countless throng among the spring
flowers, bunched in knots and clusters; even so did the mighty
multitude pour from ships and tents to the assembly, and range
themselves upon the wide-watered shore, while among them ran
Wildfire Rumour, messenger of Jove, urging them ever to the fore. Thus
they gathered in a pell-mell of mad confusion, and the earth groaned
under the tramp of men as the people sought their places. Nine heralds
went crying about among them to stay their tumult and bid them
listen to the kings, till at last they were got into their several
places and ceased their clamour. Then King Agamemnon rose, holding his
sceptre. This was the work of Vulcan, who gave it to Jove the son of
Saturn. Jove gave it to Mercury, slayer of Argus, guide and
guardian. King Mercury gave it to Pelops, the mighty charioteer, and
Pelops to Atreus, shepherd of his people. Atreus, when he died, left
it to Thyestes, rich in flocks, and Thyestes in his turn left it to be
borne by Agamemnon, that he might be lord of all Argos and of the
isles. Leaning, then, on his sceptre, he addressed the Argives.
"My friends," he said, "heroes, servants of Mars, the hand of heaven
has been laid heavily upon me. Cruel Jove gave me his solemn promise
that I should sack the city of Priam before returning, but he has
played me false, and is now bidding me go ingloriously back to Argos
with the loss of much people. Such is the will of Jove, who has laid
many a proud city in the dust, as he will yet lay others, for his
power is above all. It will be a sorry tale hereafter that an
Achaean host, at once so great and valiant, battled in vain against
men fewer in number than themselves; but as yet the end is not in
sight. Think that the Achaeans and Trojans have sworn to a solemn
covenant, and that they have each been numbered- the Trojans by the
roll of their householders, and we by companies of ten; think
further that each of our companies desired to have a Trojan
householder to pour out their wine; we are so greatly more in number
that full many a company would have to go without its cup-bearer.
But they have in the town allies from other places, and it is these
that hinder me from being able to sack the rich city of Ilius. Nine of
Jove years are gone; the timbers of our ships have rotted; their
tackling is sound no longer. Our wives and little ones at home look
anxiously for our coming, but the work that we came hither to do has
not been done. Now, therefore, let us all do as I say: let us sail
back to our own land, for we shall not take Troy."
With these words he moved the hearts of the multitude, so many of
them as knew not the cunning counsel of Agamemnon. They surged to
and fro like the waves of the Icarian Sea, when the east and south
winds break from heaven's clouds to lash them; or as when the west
wind sweeps over a field of corn and the ears bow beneath the blast,
even so were they swayed as they flew with loud cries towards the
ships, and the dust from under their feet rose heavenward. They
cheered each other on to draw the ships into the sea; they cleared the
channels in front of them; they began taking away the stays from
underneath them, and the welkin rang with their glad cries, so eager
were they to return.
Then surely the Argives would have returned after a fashion that was
not fated. But Juno said to Minerva, "Alas, daughter of
aegis-bearing Jove, unweariable, shall the Argives fly home to their
own land over the broad sea, and leave Priam and the Trojans the glory
of still keeping Helen, for whose sake so many of the Achaeans have
died at Troy, far from their homes? Go about at once among the host,
and speak fairly to them, man by man, that they draw not their ships
into the sea."
Minerva was not slack to do her bidding. Down she darted from the
topmost summits of Olympus, and in a moment she was at the ships of
the Achaeans. There she found Ulysses, peer of Jove in counsel,
standing alone. He had not as yet laid a hand upon his ship, for he
was grieved and sorry; so she went close up to him and said, "Ulysses,
noble son of Laertes, are you going to fling yourselves into your
ships and be off home to your own land in this way? Will you leave
Priam and the Trojans the glory of still keeping Helen, for whose sake
so many of the Achaeans have died at Troy, far from their homes? Go
about at once among the host, and speak fairly to them, man by man,
that they draw not their ships into the sea."
Ulysses knew the voice as that of the goddess: he flung his cloak
from him and set off to run. His servant Eurybates, a man of Ithaca,
who waited on him, took charge of the cloak, whereon Ulysses went
straight up to Agamemnon and received from him his ancestral,
imperishable staff. With this he went about among the ships of the
Achaeans.
Whenever he met a king or chieftain, he stood by him and spoke him
fairly. "Sir," said he, "this flight is cowardly and unworthy. Stand
to your post, and bid your people also keep their places. You do not
yet know the full mind of Agamemnon; he was sounding us, and ere
long will visit the Achaeans with his displeasure. We were not all
of us at the council to hear what he then said; see to it lest he be
angry and do us a mischief; for the pride of kings is great, and the
hand of Jove is with them."
But when he came across any common man who was making a noise, he
struck him with his staff and rebuked him, saying, "Sirrah, hold
your peace, and listen to better men than yourself. You are a coward
and no soldier; you are nobody either in fight or council; we cannot
all be kings; it is not well that there should be many masters; one
man must be supreme- one king to whom the son of scheming Saturn has
given the sceptre of sovereignty over you all."
Thus masterfully did he go about among the host, and the people
hurried back to the council from their tents and ships with a sound as
the thunder of surf when it comes crashing down upon the shore, and
all the sea is in an uproar.
The rest now took their seats and kept to their own several
places, but Thersites still went on wagging his unbridled tongue- a
man of many words, and those unseemly; a monger of sedition, a
railer against all who were in authority, who cared not what he
said, so that he might set the Achaeans in a laugh. He was the ugliest
man of all those that came before Troy- bandy-legged, lame of one
foot, with his two shoulders rounded and hunched over his chest. His
head ran up to a point, but there was little hair on the top of it.
Achilles and Ulysses hated him worst of all, for it was with them that
he was most wont to wrangle; now, however, with a shrill squeaky voice
he began heaping his abuse on Agamemnon. The Achaeans were angry and
disgusted, yet none the less he kept on brawling and bawling at the
son of Atreus.
"Agamemnon," he cried, "what ails you now, and what more do you
want? Your tents are filled with bronze and with fair women, for
whenever we take a town we give you the pick of them. Would you have
yet more gold, which some Trojan is to give you as a ransom for his
son, when I or another Achaean has taken him prisoner? or is it some
young girl to hide and lie with? It is not well that you, the ruler of
the Achaeans, should bring them into such misery. Weakling cowards,
women rather than men, let us sail home, and leave this fellow here at
Troy to stew in his own meeds of honour, and discover whether we
were of any service to him or no. Achilles is a much better man than
he is, and see how he has treated him- robbing him of his prize and
keeping it himself. Achilles takes it meekly and shows no fight; if he
did, son of Atreus, you would never again insult him."
Thus railed Thersites, but Ulysses at once went up to him and
rebuked him sternly. "Check your glib tongue, Thersites," said be,
"and babble not a word further. Chide not with princes when you have
none to back you. There is no viler creature come before Troy with the
sons of Atreus. Drop this chatter about kings, and neither revile them
nor keep harping about going home. We do not yet know how things are
going to be, nor whether the Achaeans are to return with good
success or evil. How dare you gibe at Agamemnon because the Danaans
have awarded him so many prizes? I tell you, therefore- and it shall
surely be- that if I again catch you talking such nonsense, I will
either forfeit my own head and be no more called father of Telemachus,
or I will take you, strip you stark naked, and whip you out of the
assembly till you go blubbering back to the ships."
On this he beat him with his staff about the back and shoulders till
he dropped and fell a-weeping. The golden sceptre raised a bloody weal
on his back, so he sat down frightened and in pain, looking foolish as
he wiped the tears from his eyes. The people were sorry for him, yet
they laughed heartily, and one would turn to his neighbour saying,
"Ulysses has done many a good thing ere now in fight and council,
but he never did the Argives a better turn than when he stopped this
fellow's mouth from prating further. He will give the kings no more of
his insolence."
Thus said the people. Then Ulysses rose, sceptre in hand, and
Minerva in the likeness of a herald bade the people be still, that
those who were far off might hear him and consider his council. He
therefore with all sincerity and goodwill addressed them thus:-
"King Agamemnon, the Achaeans are for making you a by-word among all
mankind. They forget the promise they made you when they set out
from Argos, that you should not return till you had sacked the town of
Troy, and, like children or widowed women, they murmur and would set
off homeward. True it is that they have had toil enough to be
disheartened. A man chafes at having to stay away from his wife even
for a single month, when he is on shipboard, at the mercy of wind
and sea, but it is now nine long years that we have been kept here;
I cannot, therefore, blame the Achaeans if they turn restive; still we
shall be shamed if we go home empty after so long a stay- therefore,
my friends, be patient yet a little longer that we may learn whether
the prophesyings of Calchas were false or true.
"All who have not since perished must remember as though it were
yesterday or the day before, how the ships of the Achaeans were
detained in Aulis when we were on our way hither to make war on
Priam and the Trojans. We were ranged round about a fountain
offering hecatombs to the gods upon their holy altars, and there was a
fine plane-tree from beneath which there welled a stream of pure
water. Then we saw a prodigy; for Jove sent a fearful serpent out of
the ground, with blood-red stains upon its back, and it darted from
under the altar on to the plane-tree. Now there was a brood of young
sparrows, quite small, upon the topmost bough, peeping out from
under the leaves, eight in all, and their mother that hatched them
made nine. The serpent ate the poor cheeping things, while the old
bird flew about lamenting her little ones; but the serpent threw his
coils about her and caught her by the wing as she was screaming. Then,
when he had eaten both the sparrow and her young, the god who had sent
him made him become a sign; for the son of scheming Saturn turned
him into stone, and we stood there wondering at that which had come to
pass. Seeing, then, that such a fearful portent had broken in upon our
hecatombs, Calchas forthwith declared to us the oracles of heaven.
'Why, Achaeans,' said he, 'are you thus speechless? Jove has sent us
this sign, long in coming, and long ere it be fulfilled, though its
fame shall last for ever. As the serpent ate the eight fledglings
and the sparrow that hatched them, which makes nine, so shall we fight
nine years at Troy, but in the tenth shall take the town.' This was
what he said, and now it is all coming true. Stay here, therefore, all
of you, till we take the city of Priam."
On this the Argives raised a shout, till the ships rang again with
the uproar. Nestor, knight of Gerene, then addressed them. "Shame on
you," he cried, "to stay talking here like children, when you should
fight like men. Where are our covenants now, and where the oaths
that we have taken? Shall our counsels be flung into the fire, with
our drink-offerings and the right hands of fellowship wherein we
have put our trust? We waste our time in words, and for all our
talking here shall be no further forward. Stand, therefore, son of
Atreus, by your own steadfast purpose; lead the Argives on to
battle, and leave this handful of men to rot, who scheme, and scheme
in vain, to get back to Argos
Edited by oneyedjackswild1 psLink to comment
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lindyhopper
JerryB, I am with ya on the Peleg thing. I wonder how much we really know about the entire Bible, much less 14 words of it. Although, having been taught this stuff for so many years, I tend to look at it as, "if this were true, what would it mean about these other issues?".
I used to wonder how they could construct a skeleton out of just a few bones or a skull, until I took a class where we studied both current and fossilised bones. What you can learn from a skull or leg bone is astonishing. You know the song...the leg bone is connected to the and on and on.
I used to wonder when I saw archeological digs how they could pick out a house that has decomposed into dirt from the rest of the dirt. Then I did a dig at Jamestown. It became abundantly clear.
There are many things that I haven't understood until I got some first hand experience...an issue we all have to deal with.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I have a piece of wood on my desk that I found on the beach last summer. It appears to be oak because of the dot and dash tight grain. It's 1/4 of a circle that would fit into a 12x12 inch square. It's approximately 2 inches wide. On one end is an open 45 degree and the other end a closed 45 degree miter. On the closed 45 is a 3/8 th inch dowel. The piece is definitely from a boat made of wood and must be a port.
On the back side is another piece of wood that is square to the radius. It has a black tar like surface. Whiff, whiff. Smells like a new rubber tire. It is a an adhesive. Ahhh, there are lines pressed into the adhesive indicating a square piece of glass was once held in place.
The 3/8 th inch dowel on the front is a plug. On the back is a 1/8 th inch hole indicating a fastening device such as a nail or screw.
Okay. My point is, I only have a piece of wood, but I can damn well tell that it was from a boat that was built within the last 30 years. But the wood from the boat would obviously be older.
What I really would like to know is if this piece was from a "May Day, May Day" ?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
forgive me that i can not find the quote on this thread about people being angry toward twi and that's why they post. I wish I could find that quote because I would like to say something in regard to it.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
XLT Empirical Data
Since this thread offers a variety of thought I add this one.
I was just cruising First St. Jax Be last Friday noon and pulled into a parking space next to a handicap space. There was a Ranger XLT in that space next to me equipped with a device secured to the tail gate to load and unload a wheel chair, which i call all wheel chairs "chariot". I use to drive one, a chariot that is.
Beautiful day.
Opened my windows for that breeze and began a write.
Here is the original uncut version:
i sit 'pon the oceans edge
mesmerized by unsychronized
rythem the waters ever flowing
tides
& all the folks who spend
the day 'pon ancient sand
to gather sun into their skin
and a hmeless walking north leaves a
long sleeve shirt
and another rides by south &
scopes the fabric & oft
the shirt goes again
and i wonder oh i do wander
the thots mine mind
and all the thots purposed
by those who find the oceans edge
the tymes of sand
breathed in breathed out
fromfar and further
than eyes can gather
then i wonder oh i wander
my thots to those blind
they see through eyes
of skin & scent & salt & sound
& so the ocean & sand continue
to new generations
to ponder the wonder
where have all the foot prints
gone
and surfers leave no trace
in wake waves they chase and choose to take
for they know there will be others to break
so you know as it goes
the tides ebb & flow
and all erodes at the
edges of time
& one might find
an answer or two
may be too many
to think through
adieu
a little ole lady
maybe 80
rides a chariot
her bone draped with alligator skin
with two fishing staff
'pon her back
comes from the pier
she is sad in her face
her mouth an unsmile
or maybe just determined in her fffrown
caused by time
i see her ride, glide effortlessly by me
and see that cooler
made a catch for
dinner & sunset grow oh so near
and i fellt a pity toward her
like the homeless gone b4
she stopped in front my truck
she looked at me with no shades for her eyes
i looked at her with shades so dark
& long hair i am
no wonder she gave me no smile
but i smiled
she nodded
i wondered her righteous dignity
she drove off the side walk
and i gave a slight wave of later on
and continued my view b4 me
surfers in wet suit load their boards
'pon their suvs
and the sound
of impudent youth
all 'round me
I smile and close my door
ready to crank my truck
to leave
i notice in my rear view
a little sound
and add to my wonder of wander
with immediate tears of laughter
that little ole lady
loading her chariot
into that XLT
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Twinky
Well, this looked like an interesting old thread so thought I'd bump it up.
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