You'll get a good deal on a musical instrument on Ebay - if you don't mind poor quality. Don't get me wrong, the instruments we've gotten are playable. But we showed them to the kids' music teachers, and they found it difficult to keep from snickering.
With musical instruments and sports equipment there is a wide variety of quality.
Sometimes you need help to find out if something is a good deal or not. When possible ask someone who has experience with whatever you are trying to get.
Also you will need to decide the level of dedication you are going to put into playing an instrument. If you are very serious, get the best quality you can afford. (and scale down some if you are not as serious)
I help people get racquets for playing racquetball. I have seen game improve alot with better equipment. I am sure the same thing could be said with music.
I don't know about musical instruments, but in racquetball, you don't reccomend a beginner a new "top of the line" racquet till they are playing on a regular basis and are wanting to improve there game.
Two schools of thought to be considered, when thinking of buying that "first instrument" -- either for yourself, or for someone else.
A.) Buy a cheap instrument, and if they are willing to learn, then invest more for a better one, after they have proven their desire to learn and progress. And;
B.) Buy the best you can afford, since the better instrument will enhance the efforts of even the most novice of students, thus will perhaps help bolster their willingnes to "stick it out", and continue on.
My-Humble-Opinion:
Forget "thought A", and thoroughly embrace "thought B". Not only are better instruments easier to play (making it extremely better for the novice), but they sound better as well, so even the mistakes don't sound all that bad.
If you can afford a better instrument, by all means, buy that one over the "cheap one" that you might have found in your want ad section of the newspaper. And when you go to look at one, take someone along that knows (in this case -- guitars), so that they can give you their perspective on that particular instrument.
I have several very good instruments here, and some of them were bought on the "say-so" of others, and I haven't been disappointed. If you are shopping locally, get someone who can offer "expertise" to go along with you.
If you are NOT FAMILIAR WITH INSTRUMENTS, stay away from e-bay, because you have no way of evaluating your intended purchase. I'll give you an example:
I saw on The Elderly Site, a Martin guitar (pre-war, D-45) for sale for $35,000. This is top of the line Martin, and anything pre-war brings big bucks. Even though I know what a Martin is worth, anyone buying that particular guitar would do so because of it's age, and because it is a D-45, and with no guarantee of whether or not it sounded good. Even if I had the money (which I do not), and given what I know about Martin Guitars, I would not buy that sight unseen, or unheard, and I know what I would be looking for.
My point is -- if you are unfamiliar with instruments, buy local, and take someone with you that can give you an honest assessment of the one you are thinking of buying. And if it is a little more expensive, well -- it is probably better, thus easier to play, it sounds better, and the "novice" may be inspired to continue, instead of giving up.
You DO NOT want a guitar that has "high action" (that means the strings are elevated high above the neck of the guitar. The higher the strings, the harder it is to press them down, causing discomfort for beginners, and experts alike. It will take a week or two to build up callouses on the hand that actually does the fingering, and if the strings are lower, it will hurt less.
Now -- the good side of this all. If -- the student decides NOT TO CONTINUE (whether or not they have a good instrument, or a poor one), you can always re-sell a quality instrument for what you put into it, whereas most folks will not give you your money's worth for a poorer quality instrument, that you picked up for "cheap". They will see it the same way, and if you decide to re-sell, you will most likely lose -- monetarily.
PS -- a decent guitar will run about $500+ bucks for a beginner (according to my standards). I have a friend who got a Yamaha "cheapie" from a pawn shop, for $100.00, that sounds almost as good as my 36 year old Martin, but he knew what he was looking for, and found it. Like I say -- take someone along that knows the instrument. If you do, you might find a better instrument, for a cheaper price, but I would guess that $500 is about what you are looking at.
Thanks so much, y'all! Steve!, Zshot and dmiller, I do want to buy something that's of good quality - especially now hearing your advice, but, I don't want to spend thousands of $$ either (I can't anyway).
ex, yeppers! This is my first TWIt-free Christmas! I LOVE saying that word -- CHRISTMAS, CHRISTMAS, CHRISTMAS!!! :D--> (put that in your pipe and smoke it, waygb!!!)
Shellon, I found out a co-worker here used to hang out with Stevie Ray Vaughan and played with him quite a bit (but for fun, not professionally). This is his advice to me and these stores have online sales also. If you want, I'm going with him to the brick & mortars next week or 1st week in December to shop & can tell you what I ended up getting.
quote:You can buy a good beginner acoustic for around $200-$300, but no need to go on Ebay to do it. I would suggest going to either Sam Ash or The Guitar Center and getting a Carlo Robelli acoustic. They are about the best bang for the buck. If you would like for me to go with you to check one out closely or pick a good one I would be happy to. Let me know.
dmiller, thanks for the detailed advice! I didn't want to spend $500, so hopefully the Carlo Robelli will be good enough quality for starting out. Are you familiar with them?
**Warning: Most guitars for sale in music stores are tuned down a half step - make sure the person "test driving" the guitars for you has his own tuner with them. The stores do this to make instruments seem more playable (the strings are looser than with standard tuning).**
Before picking what type of guitar you get for your friend you might want to consider what their tastes are in music, as well. If they're wanting to learn top-40 or country, then probably a steel string would be best. If they're wanting to learn classical pieces, flemenco, etc., then the nylon string would be the better choice.
Classical is a little easier on the fingers due to the nylon strings but has a wider neck and is fussier to care for (you have to consider a good case and excellent humidifier for the instrument). Fender makes a decent little classical that's around $300 new. Steel strings are harder on the fingers at first, but there are now polymer coated strings that make less "buzzing noise" and are easier to work with.
Yamaha and Fender both make decent low-end acoustics. The great thing about instruments is that you can trade-up with them later, if you desire. Hubby has six guitars - 3 acoustic and 3 electric, and two amps. He recently had a pick up put on his Martin acoustic so he can "plug-in" and play on stage. (He moonlights as a musician on weekends.) He makes a trade up about once a year on them - it's an addiction! (I was his groupie when I was his girlfriend - now that we're married, I'm his roadie!)
When dmiller warned you about "high action" - that is also something that a luthier can fix by lowering a bridge. Any music store worth it's weight in salt will have on-site repairs.
When considering the cost of an instrument, you must also consider the case, a humidifier (especially this time of year!), and a tuner for it. A good hard case is about $70, a humidifier is about $10 and a good digital tuner is about $15. Please please please don't put a guitar in a gig bag! They offer no protection!
Finally, when you make the purchase, have the salesman double check the tuning, the straightness of the neck and check the front for warping (caused by dryness). Make sure you get everything in writing about warantees and check their post-holiday return and exchange policy.
Another avenue that I have found for picking up guitars that are reasonable, are the swap and shop adds, and our local pawn shop.
It would be better if you could find a friend that plays to go with you and test it out.
I would recomend paying a little more and buy something that you will enjoy for many years, rather than a bargain that you will be dissatisfied with in 6 months when your skill improves.....
Even though I was never there at Christmas- time, it was my understanding that they had someone dress up as Santa Claus and exchanged gifts at HQ with the full pagan decorations, et al.
Check around where you might get guitar lessons. Often they will rent an instrument understanding that children often change their minds.
My oldest started with a rented clarinet and loved all the wind instruments. We bought her a decent clarinet once we realized how much she liked it and how good she was at it. Eventually, she learned to play all the woods in the high school orchestra....bassoon....oboe....all those things!
I went to Sam Ash in New York, who know pretty much everything about everything instrumental.
That Martin had a warped neck...and was on sale for $500 (this was 30 years ago mind you)...
The salesguy told me that Martins have a lifetime warranty and hence I could get the neck fixed...hence the half sale price.
I bought it (it was a gift) and got the neck fixed. It still works to this day...
I, personally, buy the top notch...I have a Rizotti hammer dulcimer which cost a pretty penny, and I don't play it much anymore...but...it is worth today what I bought it for 10 years ago because of the quality.
I dare guess what my Martin is worth...
Your other option is to go to your local "symphony hall"...or comparable local orchestra (most cities have them) and have someone there help you. They may even have or know of some for sale.
Belle -- there are some really good suggestions here for ya! ;)-->
Shellon -- you said ---
quote: I assume that when I walk into a store, they are going to tell me what I want to hear to make the sale.
Most folks who work in a music store, are players themselves, so they fall into the "different breed of cat" category. Unlike a used car salesman, they will most likely be genuinely interested in seeing you get the best instrument, and will often point out deficiencies of one over another, once they know what it is you are looking for.
Granted -- some of the music "chain stores" are more interested in making the sale, but over-all, you will find the salesman at a music store to be a warm, friendly, and helpful person.
ChasUFarley said ---
quote: Warning: Most guitars for sale in music stores are tuned down a half step - make sure the person "test driving" the guitars for you has his own tuner with them. The stores do this to make instruments seem more playable (the strings are looser than with standard tuning).**
This is VERY true, and if you don't have a tuner with you, and if they sell pianos at the music store, go to the piano, and use it to tune the guitar - since pianos are always at pitch.
High action of the strings can also be fixed by loosening the truss rod that goes throught the neck of the guitar, and is accessed by taking off the "coverplate" up on the peghead, where the tuners for the strings are. Martins have no truss rods (at least mine does not), but a guitar in your price range would definately have one. These are used for "fine-tuning" the neck, and the action of the strings, and not for making a major adjustment. If the strings are "way too high", it might be better to pass on that instrument, even though it can be corrected through adjustments.
You can find great deals at $300.00 also. Since you have a knowledgable guy going along with you, I'm sure you're going to find a good instrument, at a good price, and many fun hours of hearing it played. I've not heard of Carlo Robelli, but there are a lot of good guitars on the market today, and his sounds like one of them. :)-->
quote: Even though I was never there at Christmas- time, it was my understanding that they had someone dress up as Santa Claus and exchanged gifts at HQ with the full pagan decorations, et al.
Was this not the case when you were there?
Not when I was there! I left HQ in 2001. I never saw an angel, Santa Claus, or any pagan decorations (although there were "Household Holiday" decorations). The only gift exchange in which I ever participated was when my department did a "new to you" gift exchange. In other words, most people got used items. Now that was an abundant Christmas at The Way International Headquarters!! :D-->
BTW, we used to put on our own birthday parties. Nobody ever made me a cake at HQ. I always made my own. The Trustees, on the other hand, got a birthday cake made by Food Services. They were even asked ahead of time what kind of cake they wanted. They also got to pick the meal they wanted that day. They got this for their anniversaries also. God isn't a respector of persons, but The Way International Headquarters surely is.
WB, when I was on staff in the mid-80s, there was always a Santa handing out gifts at the kids' Christmas party, and I seem to remember that Mrs. Wierwille gave everyone on staff small gifts (like candles and such). There was a big Christmas tree in the OSC lobby and decorations around HQ.
At one year's party, Mrs. Owens, with a twinkle in her eye, whispered "Merry Christmas" to my friend who helped her with wedding planning. :D--> I never knew anyone who could really say Happy Household Holidays with a straight face.
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Steve!
You'll get a good deal on a musical instrument on Ebay - if you don't mind poor quality. Don't get me wrong, the instruments we've gotten are playable. But we showed them to the kids' music teachers, and they found it difficult to keep from snickering.
Caveat emptor.
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Zshot
Sometimes you do get what you pay for...
With musical instruments and sports equipment there is a wide variety of quality.
Sometimes you need help to find out if something is a good deal or not. When possible ask someone who has experience with whatever you are trying to get.
Also you will need to decide the level of dedication you are going to put into playing an instrument. If you are very serious, get the best quality you can afford. (and scale down some if you are not as serious)
I help people get racquets for playing racquetball. I have seen game improve alot with better equipment. I am sure the same thing could be said with music.
I don't know about musical instruments, but in racquetball, you don't reccomend a beginner a new "top of the line" racquet till they are playing on a regular basis and are wanting to improve there game.
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excathedra
sorry the musicians will have to help you
but i must ask
is this your "first" christmas doing this, belle, since the way ?.
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dmiller
Two schools of thought to be considered, when thinking of buying that "first instrument" -- either for yourself, or for someone else.
A.) Buy a cheap instrument, and if they are willing to learn, then invest more for a better one, after they have proven their desire to learn and progress. And;
B.) Buy the best you can afford, since the better instrument will enhance the efforts of even the most novice of students, thus will perhaps help bolster their willingnes to "stick it out", and continue on.
My-Humble-Opinion:
Forget "thought A", and thoroughly embrace "thought B". Not only are better instruments easier to play (making it extremely better for the novice), but they sound better as well, so even the mistakes don't sound all that bad.
If you can afford a better instrument, by all means, buy that one over the "cheap one" that you might have found in your want ad section of the newspaper. And when you go to look at one, take someone along that knows (in this case -- guitars), so that they can give you their perspective on that particular instrument.
I have several very good instruments here, and some of them were bought on the "say-so" of others, and I haven't been disappointed. If you are shopping locally, get someone who can offer "expertise" to go along with you.
If you are NOT FAMILIAR WITH INSTRUMENTS, stay away from e-bay, because you have no way of evaluating your intended purchase. I'll give you an example:
I saw on The Elderly Site, a Martin guitar (pre-war, D-45) for sale for $35,000. This is top of the line Martin, and anything pre-war brings big bucks. Even though I know what a Martin is worth, anyone buying that particular guitar would do so because of it's age, and because it is a D-45, and with no guarantee of whether or not it sounded good. Even if I had the money (which I do not), and given what I know about Martin Guitars, I would not buy that sight unseen, or unheard, and I know what I would be looking for.
My point is -- if you are unfamiliar with instruments, buy local, and take someone with you that can give you an honest assessment of the one you are thinking of buying. And if it is a little more expensive, well -- it is probably better, thus easier to play, it sounds better, and the "novice" may be inspired to continue, instead of giving up.
You DO NOT want a guitar that has "high action" (that means the strings are elevated high above the neck of the guitar. The higher the strings, the harder it is to press them down, causing discomfort for beginners, and experts alike. It will take a week or two to build up callouses on the hand that actually does the fingering, and if the strings are lower, it will hurt less.
Now -- the good side of this all. If -- the student decides NOT TO CONTINUE (whether or not they have a good instrument, or a poor one), you can always re-sell a quality instrument for what you put into it, whereas most folks will not give you your money's worth for a poorer quality instrument, that you picked up for "cheap". They will see it the same way, and if you decide to re-sell, you will most likely lose -- monetarily.
Good Luck!
:)-->
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dmiller
PS -- a decent guitar will run about $500+ bucks for a beginner (according to my standards). I have a friend who got a Yamaha "cheapie" from a pawn shop, for $100.00, that sounds almost as good as my 36 year old Martin, but he knew what he was looking for, and found it. Like I say -- take someone along that knows the instrument. If you do, you might find a better instrument, for a cheaper price, but I would guess that $500 is about what you are looking at.
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Belle
Thanks so much, y'all! Steve!, Zshot and dmiller, I do want to buy something that's of good quality - especially now hearing your advice, but, I don't want to spend thousands of $$ either (I can't anyway).
ex, yeppers! This is my first TWIt-free Christmas! I LOVE saying that word -- CHRISTMAS, CHRISTMAS, CHRISTMAS!!!
:D--> (put that in your pipe and smoke it, waygb!!!)
Shellon, I found out a co-worker here used to hang out with Stevie Ray Vaughan and played with him quite a bit (but for fun, not professionally). This is his advice to me and these stores have online sales also. If you want, I'm going with him to the brick & mortars next week or 1st week in December to shop & can tell you what I ended up getting.
dmiller, thanks for the detailed advice! I didn't want to spend $500, so hopefully the Carlo Robelli will be good enough quality for starting out. Are you familiar with them?
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excathedra
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Belle
LOVE IT!!
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ChasUFarley
**Warning: Most guitars for sale in music stores are tuned down a half step - make sure the person "test driving" the guitars for you has his own tuner with them. The stores do this to make instruments seem more playable (the strings are looser than with standard tuning).**
Before picking what type of guitar you get for your friend you might want to consider what their tastes are in music, as well. If they're wanting to learn top-40 or country, then probably a steel string would be best. If they're wanting to learn classical pieces, flemenco, etc., then the nylon string would be the better choice.
Classical is a little easier on the fingers due to the nylon strings but has a wider neck and is fussier to care for (you have to consider a good case and excellent humidifier for the instrument). Fender makes a decent little classical that's around $300 new. Steel strings are harder on the fingers at first, but there are now polymer coated strings that make less "buzzing noise" and are easier to work with.
Yamaha and Fender both make decent low-end acoustics. The great thing about instruments is that you can trade-up with them later, if you desire. Hubby has six guitars - 3 acoustic and 3 electric, and two amps. He recently had a pick up put on his Martin acoustic so he can "plug-in" and play on stage. (He moonlights as a musician on weekends.) He makes a trade up about once a year on them - it's an addiction! (I was his groupie when I was his girlfriend - now that we're married, I'm his roadie!)
When dmiller warned you about "high action" - that is also something that a luthier can fix by lowering a bridge. Any music store worth it's weight in salt will have on-site repairs.
When considering the cost of an instrument, you must also consider the case, a humidifier (especially this time of year!), and a tuner for it. A good hard case is about $70, a humidifier is about $10 and a good digital tuner is about $15. Please please please don't put a guitar in a gig bag! They offer no protection!
Finally, when you make the purchase, have the salesman double check the tuning, the straightness of the neck and check the front for warping (caused by dryness). Make sure you get everything in writing about warantees and check their post-holiday return and exchange policy.
Good luck!
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rascal
Another avenue that I have found for picking up guitars that are reasonable, are the swap and shop adds, and our local pawn shop.
It would be better if you could find a friend that plays to go with you and test it out.
I would recomend paying a little more and buy something that you will enjoy for many years, rather than a bargain that you will be dissatisfied with in 6 months when your skill improves.....
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waterbuffalo
Belle,
Even though I was never there at Christmas- time, it was my understanding that they had someone dress up as Santa Claus and exchanged gifts at HQ with the full pagan decorations, et al.
Was this not the case when you were there?
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krys
Check around where you might get guitar lessons. Often they will rent an instrument understanding that children often change their minds.
My oldest started with a rented clarinet and loved all the wind instruments. We bought her a decent clarinet once we realized how much she liked it and how good she was at it. Eventually, she learned to play all the woods in the high school orchestra....bassoon....oboe....all those things!
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Wacky Funster
Belle...my first guitar was a 12 string Martin!!!
I went to Sam Ash in New York, who know pretty much everything about everything instrumental.
That Martin had a warped neck...and was on sale for $500 (this was 30 years ago mind you)...
The salesguy told me that Martins have a lifetime warranty and hence I could get the neck fixed...hence the half sale price.
I bought it (it was a gift) and got the neck fixed. It still works to this day...
I, personally, buy the top notch...I have a Rizotti hammer dulcimer which cost a pretty penny, and I don't play it much anymore...but...it is worth today what I bought it for 10 years ago because of the quality.
I dare guess what my Martin is worth...
Your other option is to go to your local "symphony hall"...or comparable local orchestra (most cities have them) and have someone there help you. They may even have or know of some for sale.
Good Luck!!!
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dmiller
Belle -- there are some really good suggestions here for ya!
;)-->
Shellon -- you said ---
Most folks who work in a music store, are players themselves, so they fall into the "different breed of cat" category. Unlike a used car salesman, they will most likely be genuinely interested in seeing you get the best instrument, and will often point out deficiencies of one over another, once they know what it is you are looking for.
Granted -- some of the music "chain stores" are more interested in making the sale, but over-all, you will find the salesman at a music store to be a warm, friendly, and helpful person.
ChasUFarley said ---
This is VERY true, and if you don't have a tuner with you, and if they sell pianos at the music store, go to the piano, and use it to tune the guitar - since pianos are always at pitch.
High action of the strings can also be fixed by loosening the truss rod that goes throught the neck of the guitar, and is accessed by taking off the "coverplate" up on the peghead, where the tuners for the strings are. Martins have no truss rods (at least mine does not), but a guitar in your price range would definately have one. These are used for "fine-tuning" the neck, and the action of the strings, and not for making a major adjustment. If the strings are "way too high", it might be better to pass on that instrument, even though it can be corrected through adjustments.
You can find great deals at $300.00 also. Since you have a knowledgable guy going along with you, I'm sure you're going to find a good instrument, at a good price, and many fun hours of hearing it played. I've not heard of Carlo Robelli, but there are a lot of good guitars on the market today, and his sounds like one of them.
:)-->
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dmiller
Wacky -- what model is your 12-string Martin, and what year was it made??
I used to have a Martin D12-35. Beautiful instrument, both in sound and looks, but I sold it for $600.00 back in the early 80's.
:(--> 
:(-->
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Nottawayfer
BTW, we used to put on our own birthday parties. Nobody ever made me a cake at HQ. I always made my own. The Trustees, on the other hand, got a birthday cake made by Food Services. They were even asked ahead of time what kind of cake they wanted. They also got to pick the meal they wanted that day. They got this for their anniversaries also. God isn't a respector of persons, but The Way International Headquarters surely is.
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Linda Z
WB, when I was on staff in the mid-80s, there was always a Santa handing out gifts at the kids' Christmas party, and I seem to remember that Mrs. Wierwille gave everyone on staff small gifts (like candles and such). There was a big Christmas tree in the OSC lobby and decorations around HQ.
At one year's party, Mrs. Owens, with a twinkle in her eye, whispered "Merry Christmas" to my friend who helped her with wedding planning.
:D--> I never knew anyone who could really say Happy Household Holidays with a straight face.
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