We all believed at one time VP was something special...nine pages dedicated to him? I can point you to a FB page with comment after comment about how wonderful VP was.....should that give me a clue about him?
Here's the difference. We now have evidence (and I mean LOTS of it) that Wierwille was not what he pretended to be. That there are people who choose to ignore or refute the evidence is irrelevant. In contrast, we have zero evidence that Jim Doop was anything other than the man he is remembered to have been. Yes, I think that should give you, at the very least, "a clue".
Here's the difference. We now have evidence (and I mean LOTS of it) that Wierwille was not what he pretended to be. That there are people who choose to ignore or refute the evidence is irrelevant. In contrast, we have zero evidence that Jim Doop was anything other than the man he is remembered to have been. Yes, I think that should give you, at the very least, "a clue".
How's this Waysider? Sounds like people really loved him. That Sunesis thinks highly of him on this thread speaks to me....as I know her a bit and value her opinion. Work for you? There, I have a clue.
<br> <br>Oh, and for the record...I never met Jim Doop and didn't mention him in my posts. If he was genuine or full of it...I don't have a clue.<br><br>
<br>If that's true, then you need to sharpen your "powers of perception". <img src="http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif" class="bbc_emoticon" alt=":)"> <br>I say that with no animosity/ ill-will/ or denigration. I'm just stating a fact.<br>I've watched the "hijack" of this thread away from the original topic, and;<br>Even though topics get off course, this one went "down under". Wayyyyyy down under.<br><br>If you care to know (maybe you don't) about Jim, all you have to do is read the first few pages of this thread, and also read his "obit" that can be found here at the GSC also. Ooops - - - did I put the "also" in the right place? <img src="http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/public/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif"> Regardless - - - Jim was the "real deal". Working where he did/ when he did/ with whom he did/ and not promoting himself (unlike some other folks we're all familiar with), seems to speak volumes.<br><br>And - - - (speaking of "speaking volumes"), have you noticed that there is NOT ONE NEGATIVE thing said about him here at the cafe? Given the "track record" of others who were influential in twi and then got out, there's only a couple (that I can think of) who are still spoken of with respect. Ralph is one and Jim is another. There might be others, but it's a mighty, mighty "short list".<br><br>Given the "hardened"/ skeptical/ abrasive/ etc./ (and rightly so) crowd here, it really says a lot to me that there has been ZERO negative input on Jim Doop. When there is a crowd "this rough" recovering from past injustices, or trying to deal with reality (when reality wasn't an option previously), can only speak about the good he did, you have to sit up and take notice. I suppose there's probably a figure of speech for that, but if there is, I don't know what it is. <br><br>I mentioned Jim's "obit" here on GSC. You can see it - - - - - > > ><a href=" class="bbc_url" title="External link" rel="nofollow"><font color="#8B0000"><b>HERE!</b></font></a>. <br>My comments (from 4 1/2 years ago), can be seen on page one. Yes - - - Jim was "genuinely full of it", but not in the way you meant. <img src="http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/public/style_emoticons/default/beer.gif"><br><br>Oh - - - And I've got to commend you for your care for your elderly friend. I did much the same thing for an old fella who lived across the back alley from me (deceased now 15 years ago), who was incapacitated/ living sequestered in the 2nd floor of his two story house/ unable to get to the first floor/ had 5 dogs/ and the stench and filth was unimaginable (well maybe not to you). It pains me to think how many "lonely old" there are out there.<br><br>If you have the time - - - Take the time to read up on Jim. He's still listed as a member here.<br>I tried to find some of his posts to put up for you, but I can't find the 14 he posted, while here.<br>Perhaps WordWolf, or someone who understands the "search feature" better than I, can find them. <img src="http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif" class="bbc_emoticon" alt=":)">
<div><br></div><div>(edited to add "are" after lonely old)</div>
I never knew him. I am probably a bit younger than you...... it was before my time in twi.
It is great that people liked him. But, if you want me to form my opinion, based on what others say.....I can't and won't do that for you. Why would you ask me to?
It doesn't mean I can't say.....he sounds like a nice guy. It sounds like people loved him.
That is the best I have for you. :(
Really, why does it matter what I think of him? Especially since I never knew him.
I am sorry your friend is gone, it sounds like you loved him.....and I hope you cherish your memories of someone so important to you.
I never knew him. I am probably a bit younger than you...... it was before my time in twi.
It is great that people liked him. But, if you want me to form my opinion, based on what others say.....I can't and won't do that for you. Why would you ask me to?
It doesn't mean I can't say.....he sounds like a nice guy. It sounds like people loved him.
That is the best I have for you. :(
Really, why does it matter what I think of him? Especially since I never knew him.
I am sorry your friend is gone, it sounds like you loved him.....and I hope you cherish your memories of someone so important to you.
I didn't ask you to form an opinion of him. Nor (if you've never met him) would I expect you to, neither did I ask you to do so. My intent in posting (what I did) was to get you to focus back on the topic of Jim Doop, The Way West, and VPW (the title of this thread). What I posted and linked to was nothing more than a "tool" for you (and a few others here as well)) to take a look at his life. If you have no knowledge of him/ his life/ his ministry, then perhaps a new thread might be in order, eh? This one seems to have been pretty well derailed (in typical GSC fashion) by those who have something more relevant to say, other than the topic at hand.
If possible - - - It would be nice to "get back to topic".
So much for this "I am not attacking you personally. All in all I believe you are a wonderful person, very devoted, very giving, and in many ways a good Christian example."
I knew when I read that it was a line. Narrow mindedness? All this response to me...the I don't "get" it and the "stop it" is all because I don't conform to the way you think I should believe.
Whatever. You think the word 'churcy' is attacking you personally. I feel it is a very accurate adjective describing your activity on this thread. It has nothing to do with conforming to the way I believe, it has everything to do with confronting you on a condescending and non-Christian attitude backed up by scriptures. You've never addressed that, you've just tried to make up reasons why you are right. Of course, everybody here sees why it absolutely could never be anything you did wrong. And oh, everybody realizes you're not judging just trying to be good old little you helping people get back to church. Take off the mask. Put off the hypocrisy.
I have an opinion. You don't like it. I don't really care.
Your so-called opinion denigrates other Christian members of the body of Christ who are not members of a 'church' as you see fit to describe it. In your opnion, it could be any 'church' as long as it has 'accountability', and 'genuine pastoring'. The problem with that is there are 'churches' that handle snakes and other 'churches' with proven records of homosexually molesting children. They aren't labeled 'cults' but oh, confront you with a scriptural backing and look how the accusations fly. Not the same faith, another gospel, boy next thing you know you'll be accusing all those who don't go to church like you to be seed of the serpent.
Oh, and for the record...I never met Jim Doop and didn't mention him in my posts. If he was genuine or full of it...I don't have a clue.
Wow. And on a thread that has his name in the title. What are you trying to tell us? Since you never posted on topic in the whole thread, I guess the only reasonable alternative is you were trolling the thread. Right?
And Chockfull....sorry to disrupt your "church" here. Asking me to leave...is that like Mark and Avoid?
No, actually nothing like it. This forum is lightly moderated and seldom is anyone banned. Actually what it's like is just a reality check. If you feel that most of the people who post on this forum, i.e. most ex-cultists have the following characteristics:
1) Do not follow the same gospel of Jesus Christ as you do
2) Do not have the same faith as you do
3) Will argue with your genuine 'pastored' perspective
4) Are not really Christians, even though they say they are
it just leads to the logical conclusion that your only presence on this forum is for the purpose of trying to show people that unless they attend a church they are not a genuine Christian. And in that you may have a little more in common with your local church, which may emphasize 'accountability', and 'genuine pastoring' in a way that you feel you need to be 'under the authority' of a pastor. One thing your extreme viewpoint leads to asking is though, is in your local church, is your 'genuine pastor' the type that really stresses 'accountability' and teaches that unless you have that you're not a genuine Christian?
You see to me that seems exactly like the controlling nature of TWI. With a different clothing. Sorry, but no thanks. My freedom is in Christ, and is not dependant on all the other elements you wish to introduce into the Christian walk.
I didn't ask you to form an opinion of him. Nor (if you've never met him) would I expect you to, neither did I ask you to do so. My intent in posting (what I did) was to get you to focus back on the topic of Jim Doop, The Way West, and VPW (the title of this thread). What I posted and linked to was nothing more than a "tool" for you (and a few others here as well)) to take a look at his life. If you have no knowledge of him/ his life/ his ministry, then perhaps a new thread might be in order, eh? This one seems to have been pretty well derailed (in typical GSC fashion) by those who have something more relevant to say, other than the topic at hand.
If possible - - - It would be nice to "get back to topic".
Well, I think Chockfull still has a snootfull to say about me from his position as authority on what I should or should not think, but here, I will give it a go dmiller. For you.
It sounds like Jim Doop was still a part of TWI? Running classes and a graduate of VP's WC? Is that true at all? It also sounds like he got caught up in running a section of TWI.....was it the same class that I took? I took PFAL on audio....and eventually video. Was he leading people into that doctrine?
I know a few people from some early Corps and I must say...they are lovely people. But, does that make them any less tricked than the rest of us? Any less having been in a cult?
It sounds like Jim Doop was lucky VP booted him early. I hope he found a good home like Calvary Chapel or the Vineyard......one of the good things that came out of the Jesus Movement.
Unlike TWI.
I think I read somewhere that Lonnie Frisbee made it to session 3 of PFAL and walked out.....do you know anything about that? Why? I have thoughts on that but, I wonder if anyone knows why? Do we know why Jim Doop stayed?
Whatever. You think the word 'churcy' is attacking you personally. I feel it is a very accurate adjective describing your activity on this thread. It has nothing to do with conforming to the way I believe, it has everything to do with confronting you on a condescending and non-Christian attitude backed up by scriptures. You've never addressed that, you've just tried to make up reasons why you are right. Of course, everybody here sees why it absolutely could never be anything you did wrong. And oh, everybody realizes you're not judging just trying to be good old little you helping people get back to church. Take off the mask. Put off the hypocrisy.
Your so-called opinion denigrates other Christian members of the body of Christ who are not members of a 'church' as you see fit to describe it. In your opnion, it could be any 'church' as long as it has 'accountability', and 'genuine pastoring'. The problem with that is there are 'churches' that handle snakes and other 'churches' with proven records of homosexually molesting children. They aren't labeled 'cults' but oh, confront you with a scriptural backing and look how the accusations fly. Not the same faith, another gospel, boy next thing you know you'll be accusing all those who don't go to church like you to be seed of the serpent.
Wow. And on a thread that has his name in the title. What are you trying to tell us? Since you never posted on topic in the whole thread, I guess the only reasonable alternative is you were trolling the thread. Right?
No, actually nothing like it. This forum is lightly moderated and seldom is anyone banned. Actually what it's like is just a reality check. If you feel that most of the people who post on this forum, i.e. most ex-cultists have the following characteristics:
1) Do not follow the same gospel of Jesus Christ as you do
2) Do not have the same faith as you do
3) Will argue with your genuine 'pastored' perspective
4) Are not really Christians, even though they say they are
it just leads to the logical conclusion that your only presence on this forum is for the purpose of trying to show people that unless they attend a church they are not a genuine Christian. And in that you may have a little more in common with your local church, which may emphasize 'accountability', and 'genuine pastoring' in a way that you feel you need to be 'under the authority' of a pastor. One thing your extreme viewpoint leads to asking is though, is in your local church, is your 'genuine pastor' the type that really stresses 'accountability' and teaches that unless you have that you're not a genuine Christian?
You see to me that seems exactly like the controlling nature of TWI. With a different clothing. Sorry, but no thanks. My freedom is in Christ, and is not dependant on all the other elements you wish to introduce into the Christian walk.
I would just consider what the Apostle Paul said in Corinthians and elsewhere concerning those who left the church and lead others astray.
Again, you can't control what I believe....if you really think that what you understand and believe is so much better....that is your right...and I respect your right to believe what you want.
How many times or ways can I say that?
Hey...start a church. Be an itinerant......if you have it all sewn up....and are sure you know what you are saying is the gospel.....truth. Go for it. Nothing more you have to learn about your faith or what we were caught up in.
I think I will stick with "churchy". Hey, I admire the twisting it took to defend Tom's use of that as good....and that I shouldn't take it personally. LOL
LET IT GO!
PEOPLE ARE BEGGING FOR THE THREAD TO GET BACK ON TRACK!!!!
DESPISE ME AND WHAT I BELIEVE SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!! Oh wait, you already did.
And Chockfull, these guys we are discussing....what they did....was have an impact on the church....they set reforms in motion.....were somewhat influential in what we have today as contemporary Christian music......and set off a reaction that provides us today with really wonderful places of worship and church homes. It just seems a shame you don't partake fully in what they helped provide for us.
Absoluteley fascinating, Chockfull. Just a couple of months ago, I was reading a book about why certain things succeed and others don't. All kinds of things. Why & how the yoyo becomes popular every so often. I'm not sure he actually mentioned the yoyo, but stuff like that. Why certain businesses explode. Why certain churches explode. It had to do with group dynamics. There were a couple or three other factors that were intriinsically important & required, but one of the things, & I'm sorry I forget all the names, but there was a particular business, and a particular church, both of which were used as examples of certain principles in the study. The study was not prescriptive, telling people what they ought to do, but investigative, pursuing the reasons why certain social movements seemed to succeed when others failed.
Tom... I would love to know the name of the book, or the author... sounds like an excellent read!
I would just consider what the Apostle Paul said in Corinthians and elsewhere concerning those who left the church and lead others astray.
It's nice you can do that while ignoring the other sections of Corinthians talking about the one body.
Again, you can't control what I believe....if you really think that what you understand and believe is so much better....that is your right...and I respect your right to believe what you want.
How many times or ways can I say that?
I find it difficult to believe what you are saying here when in every single post you contradict it even within the same post. Like for instance you say you respect my right to believe what I want. Then below when you say 'It just seems a shame you don't partake fully in what they provided for us'.
Do you get that is hypocrisy? Or not?
Hey...start a church. Be an itinerant......if you have it all sewn up....and are sure you know what you are saying is the gospel.....truth. Go for it. Nothing more you have to learn about your faith or what we were caught up in.
I think I will stick with "churchy". Hey, I admire the twisting it took to defend Tom's use of that as good....and that I shouldn't take it personally. LOL
Churchy - an adjective that describes someone's primary goal and viewpoint of trying to convince others to go to church.
Tell me where that's not an accurate description. Whether or not you like it.
LET IT GO!
PEOPLE ARE BEGGING FOR THE THREAD TO GET BACK ON TRACK!!!!
You first. Now the only conversation on this thread is between you and me. There's no other participation. Oh, and your cap lock apparantly is stuck there. Or you're yelling at me.
DESPISE ME AND WHAT I BELIEVE SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!! Oh wait, you already did.
Actually, no that wasn't despising you. But nice try. Over there, you say:
"It sounds, from your posts, like you do love and need the Lord. It sounds like you do serve Him with what He has blessed you with."
But that's not what you really mean. What you really mean is:
"I know that you are an ex-cult member that believes in a different Christ and a different gospel than I do. But if you'll just attend a church regularly and get some 'real pastoring' and 'accountability' into your life, then you can have the potential to really love the Lord and serve Him."
See? Doesn't that translate more directly into what you believe exactly? If not, please fill me in as to what I'm missing, because when you get down deeper past flattering words in a conversation, that's really what you believe.
And Chockfull, these guys we are discussing....what they did....was have an impact on the church....they set reforms in motion.....were somewhat influential in what we have today as contemporary Christian music......and set off a reaction that provides us today with really wonderful places of worship and church homes. It just seems a shame you don't partake fully in what they helped provide for us.
Nice dig there at the end. It just seems a shame that you're a little too thick to understand it when people do partake fully yet it's outside of what you do.
It's nice you can do that while ignoring the other sections of Corinthians talking about the one body.
I find it difficult to believe what you are saying here when in every single post you contradict it even within the same post. Like for instance you say you respect my right to believe what I want. Then below when you say 'It just seems a shame you don't partake fully in what they provided for us'.
Do you get that is hypocrisy? Or not?
Churchy - an adjective that describes someone's primary goal and viewpoint of trying to convince others to go to church.
Tell me where that's not an accurate description. Whether or not you like it.
You first. Now the only conversation on this thread is between you and me. There's no other participation. Oh, and your cap lock apparantly is stuck there. Or you're yelling at me.
Actually, no that wasn't despising you. But nice try. Over there, you say:
"It sounds, from your posts, like you do love and need the Lord. It sounds like you do serve Him with what He has blessed you with."
But that's not what you really mean. What you really mean is:
"I know that you are an ex-cult member that believes in a different Christ and a different gospel than I do. But if you'll just attend a church regularly and get some 'real pastoring' and 'accountability' into your life, then you can have the potential to really love the Lord and serve Him."
See? Doesn't that translate more directly into what you believe exactly? If not, please fill me in as to what I'm missing, because when you get down deeper past flattering words in a conversation, that's really what you believe.
Nice dig there at the end. It just seems a shame that you're a little too thick to understand it when people do partake fully yet it's outside of what you do.
You really can't let it go....can you? You are seething. What would help Chockfull, if I repudiated what I understand from scripture and what I have learned through much suffering......so that you don't have to be convicted? Your reaction to my posts......screams conviction.
Just so we are clear. If you didn't care so much about what I believe....you would have blown me off pages ago......similar, to what I am about to do to you now. It must prick you pretty deep.
You really can't let it go....can you? You are seething. What would help Chockfull, if I repudiated what I understand from scripture and what I have learned through much suffering......so that you don't have to be convicted. Your reaction to my posts......screams conviction.
Just so we are clear. If you didn't care so much about what I believe....you would have blown me off pages ago......similar, to what I am about to do to you now. It must prick you pretty deep.
So you aren't letting it go yourself. That and cap locks makes you what? Seething yourself? Are you projecting here? You brought up the word.
For myself, part of my cult recovery involves instead of just letting someone accuse you falsely and dump all kinds of garbage on your brain to actually respond to it and confront people on their actions rather than just 'taking it'. As opposed to in TWI, where I just blindly accepted that people had spiritual authority. Now because you are being stubborn about this, it seems that we are in an argument over it. You keep telling me to let it go, and using various tactics to avoid responding. Now obviously at some point this argument is going to have to de-escalate.
Just so we are clear. Your hypocrisy does not 'convict' me in the least. All it is is 'your hypocrisy'. You do not speak for God when it concerns or is related to my life.
And also, I like how you avoid all the points of logic in the responses. Here are a number of them that you have not addressed. So why don't you address them before you start breaking your elbow patting yourself on the back as to how great a job for the Lord you are doing in 'convicting' people:
1) Churchy - how is that adjective inaccurate in describing you?
2) On the other thread, you flattered Gen-2 by saying she 'loves and serves the Lord'. How do you reconcile that with all your garbage on this thread about your beliefs about needing to attend a church? Are you talking out both sides of your mouth there? Why or why not?
3) Churches - many of these handle snakes and have gay priests that molest children. How do you reconcile that with your views on churches?
It really sounds like you will go to any lengths to avoid facing the truth about yourself. Well, that actually is a human defense mechanism. Rather than admitting you are being judgemental, you instead just re-frame the problem to be someone else's. Wow - you could do well in TWI with that kind of approach. That's exactly what they do to avoid any kind of public apologies.
I find the information about the jesus freaks and early twi fascinating. I was a kid in the 60s but it was a pivotal point for our country and the kids with long hair living like the book of acts caused a lot of upheaval because they were different. it sounds like vpw couldn't stand their non-conformity unless he was controlling it.
did Jim's book ever publish? I would love to read it.
From the posts here, it sounds like Jim wasn't quite happy with his manuscript yet, and wasn't going to publish it until he got it "just right"... so no, I don't think it ever has been published, but I would SURE love to have a copy!!
Tom... I would love to know the name of the book, or the author... sounds like an excellent read!
The book in question is:
The tipping point : how little things can make a big difference
Gladwell, Malcolm
It deals with how large-scale social movements come about. I saw many parallels to the Jesus Movement and tw (twi before Wierwille incorporated it and turned it into a hierarchical church) when it was still truly a grassroots movement – the organic Body of Christ in action. BTW, apparently, I was wrong about the number 200. It is 150.
Another fascinating book of his that deals with individual success is:
Outliers : the story of success
Gladwell, Malcolm, 1963-
Gladwell embarks on an intellectual journey through the world of "outliers"--the best and the brightest and the most successful. He investigates what makes high-achievers different [For example, as Bill Gates would be the first to admit, his success was due to many factors other than his brilliance, tireless curiousity, work ethic, and vision. Had he been born a few short years earlier or later, had he not gone to the only high school in the country that had computers at the time, had his parents no money or emotional support for him, his life would not having resulted in Microsoft or the revolution of personal computers] by looking at their culture, family, generation, and the idiosyncratic experiences of their upbringing.
It goes together rather well with The Tipping Point, although either book can be read alone.
From the posts here, it sounds like Jim wasn't quite happy with his manuscript yet, and wasn't going to publish it until he got it "just right"... so no, I don't think it ever has been published, but I would SURE love to have a copy!!
So would I love to have a copy. BTW, if the manuscript can be salvaged, or salvaged in part, with a result that would be acceptable, I'd be glad to help out in the process - for anyone who might be listening. I can edit for grammar & content & style, & I know other people who can edit very well.
BTW, I private messaged with Jim Doop here on gs briefly about his book. I forget the name of the thread that caused Jim to private message me, but, people were hypothesizing about the why(s) The Way turned. I posted that the Word says that the root of all evil is the love of money, so we didn't have to look any further for the reason. Jim PM'd me in response, & said that I was right. It was all about money. Ah, I wrote something that he told me was in his book, but I just deleted it. I'm sorry; I suppose it would be imprudent for me to say anything about what he told me was in his book. Especially this. And especially if it still might get published - there are spies. Again, I'm sorry, but you can add 2+2. There were no specifics shared, & I don't know anything else about what is in his book.
If you knew Jim Doop at all, I didn't know him all that well at all, but, if you knew him at all, his book is NOT all about happy days back on the farm. Everything I ever heard him say, or heard that he said, would take you up short. You would have to breathe deeply, admit what he was saying was the truth, & deal with it - if you wanted the truth to live. He was a true prophet. Despite the fact (because of the fact) that tw was not/is not the churchy hierarchical organization that twi became, the ministries were super-active. One of the reasons the Word so lived.
i have been going through one of the toughest times of my life and i do feel hell and back is a gooddescription of my past
i just want to say that god/christ is my only reason i am getting through this and i am very very thakful
Well, I don't think i would be too wrong in saying that we all are here for you if you need something. Prayers, support, whatever it be, just ask.. That is the purpose for the body, I believe.
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Ham
If so, I hope it is far more encompassing.. than some little movement in California, or New York..
Tom
Wow, well here’s what I see, and what I think I’m seeing. As always, God has the big picture. I’m just following the tracks the best I can. Sunesis: “…does it seem to you, less people are getting b
geisha779
Feel better? Maybe you are a bit confused....a church may MEET in a building.....but, it is a group of Christians who meet together in fellowship around the Lord. I wear jeans to church and rarely "d
OldSkool
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waysider
Here's the difference. We now have evidence (and I mean LOTS of it) that Wierwille was not what he pretended to be. That there are people who choose to ignore or refute the evidence is irrelevant. In contrast, we have zero evidence that Jim Doop was anything other than the man he is remembered to have been. Yes, I think that should give you, at the very least, "a clue".
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geisha779
For you? Anything!
And hey, I did take the heat off from Rascal! :)
How's this Waysider? Sounds like people really loved him. That Sunesis thinks highly of him on this thread speaks to me....as I know her a bit and value her opinion. Work for you? There, I have a clue.
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dmiller
<div><br></div><div>(edited to add "are" after lonely old)</div>
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geisha779
dmiller,
I never knew him. I am probably a bit younger than you...... it was before my time in twi.
It is great that people liked him. But, if you want me to form my opinion, based on what others say.....I can't and won't do that for you. Why would you ask me to?
It doesn't mean I can't say.....he sounds like a nice guy. It sounds like people loved him.
That is the best I have for you. :(
Really, why does it matter what I think of him? Especially since I never knew him.
I am sorry your friend is gone, it sounds like you loved him.....and I hope you cherish your memories of someone so important to you.
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dmiller
I didn't ask you to form an opinion of him. Nor (if you've never met him) would I expect you to, neither did I ask you to do so. My intent in posting (what I did) was to get you to focus back on the topic of Jim Doop, The Way West, and VPW (the title of this thread). What I posted and linked to was nothing more than a "tool" for you (and a few others here as well)) to take a look at his life. If you have no knowledge of him/ his life/ his ministry, then perhaps a new thread might be in order, eh? This one seems to have been pretty well derailed (in typical GSC fashion) by those who have something more relevant to say, other than the topic at hand.
If possible - - - It would be nice to "get back to topic".
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chockfull
Whatever. You think the word 'churcy' is attacking you personally. I feel it is a very accurate adjective describing your activity on this thread. It has nothing to do with conforming to the way I believe, it has everything to do with confronting you on a condescending and non-Christian attitude backed up by scriptures. You've never addressed that, you've just tried to make up reasons why you are right. Of course, everybody here sees why it absolutely could never be anything you did wrong. And oh, everybody realizes you're not judging just trying to be good old little you helping people get back to church. Take off the mask. Put off the hypocrisy.
Your so-called opinion denigrates other Christian members of the body of Christ who are not members of a 'church' as you see fit to describe it. In your opnion, it could be any 'church' as long as it has 'accountability', and 'genuine pastoring'. The problem with that is there are 'churches' that handle snakes and other 'churches' with proven records of homosexually molesting children. They aren't labeled 'cults' but oh, confront you with a scriptural backing and look how the accusations fly. Not the same faith, another gospel, boy next thing you know you'll be accusing all those who don't go to church like you to be seed of the serpent.
Wow. And on a thread that has his name in the title. What are you trying to tell us? Since you never posted on topic in the whole thread, I guess the only reasonable alternative is you were trolling the thread. Right?
No, actually nothing like it. This forum is lightly moderated and seldom is anyone banned. Actually what it's like is just a reality check. If you feel that most of the people who post on this forum, i.e. most ex-cultists have the following characteristics:
1) Do not follow the same gospel of Jesus Christ as you do
2) Do not have the same faith as you do
3) Will argue with your genuine 'pastored' perspective
4) Are not really Christians, even though they say they are
it just leads to the logical conclusion that your only presence on this forum is for the purpose of trying to show people that unless they attend a church they are not a genuine Christian. And in that you may have a little more in common with your local church, which may emphasize 'accountability', and 'genuine pastoring' in a way that you feel you need to be 'under the authority' of a pastor. One thing your extreme viewpoint leads to asking is though, is in your local church, is your 'genuine pastor' the type that really stresses 'accountability' and teaches that unless you have that you're not a genuine Christian?
You see to me that seems exactly like the controlling nature of TWI. With a different clothing. Sorry, but no thanks. My freedom is in Christ, and is not dependant on all the other elements you wish to introduce into the Christian walk.
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geisha779
Well, I think Chockfull still has a snootfull to say about me from his position as authority on what I should or should not think, but here, I will give it a go dmiller. For you.
It sounds like Jim Doop was still a part of TWI? Running classes and a graduate of VP's WC? Is that true at all? It also sounds like he got caught up in running a section of TWI.....was it the same class that I took? I took PFAL on audio....and eventually video. Was he leading people into that doctrine?
I know a few people from some early Corps and I must say...they are lovely people. But, does that make them any less tricked than the rest of us? Any less having been in a cult?
It sounds like Jim Doop was lucky VP booted him early. I hope he found a good home like Calvary Chapel or the Vineyard......one of the good things that came out of the Jesus Movement.
Unlike TWI.
I think I read somewhere that Lonnie Frisbee made it to session 3 of PFAL and walked out.....do you know anything about that? Why? I have thoughts on that but, I wonder if anyone knows why? Do we know why Jim Doop stayed?
http://www.lonniefrisbee.com/
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geisha779
I would just consider what the Apostle Paul said in Corinthians and elsewhere concerning those who left the church and lead others astray.
Again, you can't control what I believe....if you really think that what you understand and believe is so much better....that is your right...and I respect your right to believe what you want.
How many times or ways can I say that?
Hey...start a church. Be an itinerant......if you have it all sewn up....and are sure you know what you are saying is the gospel.....truth. Go for it. Nothing more you have to learn about your faith or what we were caught up in.
I think I will stick with "churchy". Hey, I admire the twisting it took to defend Tom's use of that as good....and that I shouldn't take it personally. LOL
LET IT GO!
PEOPLE ARE BEGGING FOR THE THREAD TO GET BACK ON TRACK!!!!
DESPISE ME AND WHAT I BELIEVE SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!! Oh wait, you already did.
And Chockfull, these guys we are discussing....what they did....was have an impact on the church....they set reforms in motion.....were somewhat influential in what we have today as contemporary Christian music......and set off a reaction that provides us today with really wonderful places of worship and church homes. It just seems a shame you don't partake fully in what they helped provide for us.
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TheHighWay
Tom... I would love to know the name of the book, or the author... sounds like an excellent read!
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chockfull
It's nice you can do that while ignoring the other sections of Corinthians talking about the one body.
I find it difficult to believe what you are saying here when in every single post you contradict it even within the same post. Like for instance you say you respect my right to believe what I want. Then below when you say 'It just seems a shame you don't partake fully in what they provided for us'.
Do you get that is hypocrisy? Or not?
Churchy - an adjective that describes someone's primary goal and viewpoint of trying to convince others to go to church.
Tell me where that's not an accurate description. Whether or not you like it.
You first. Now the only conversation on this thread is between you and me. There's no other participation. Oh, and your cap lock apparantly is stuck there. Or you're yelling at me.
Actually, no that wasn't despising you. But nice try. Over there, you say:
"It sounds, from your posts, like you do love and need the Lord. It sounds like you do serve Him with what He has blessed you with."
But that's not what you really mean. What you really mean is:
"I know that you are an ex-cult member that believes in a different Christ and a different gospel than I do. But if you'll just attend a church regularly and get some 'real pastoring' and 'accountability' into your life, then you can have the potential to really love the Lord and serve Him."
See? Doesn't that translate more directly into what you believe exactly? If not, please fill me in as to what I'm missing, because when you get down deeper past flattering words in a conversation, that's really what you believe.
Nice dig there at the end. It just seems a shame that you're a little too thick to understand it when people do partake fully yet it's outside of what you do.
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geisha779
You really can't let it go....can you? You are seething. What would help Chockfull, if I repudiated what I understand from scripture and what I have learned through much suffering......so that you don't have to be convicted? Your reaction to my posts......screams conviction.
Just so we are clear. If you didn't care so much about what I believe....you would have blown me off pages ago......similar, to what I am about to do to you now. It must prick you pretty deep.
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chockfull
So you aren't letting it go yourself. That and cap locks makes you what? Seething yourself? Are you projecting here? You brought up the word.
For myself, part of my cult recovery involves instead of just letting someone accuse you falsely and dump all kinds of garbage on your brain to actually respond to it and confront people on their actions rather than just 'taking it'. As opposed to in TWI, where I just blindly accepted that people had spiritual authority. Now because you are being stubborn about this, it seems that we are in an argument over it. You keep telling me to let it go, and using various tactics to avoid responding. Now obviously at some point this argument is going to have to de-escalate.
Just so we are clear. Your hypocrisy does not 'convict' me in the least. All it is is 'your hypocrisy'. You do not speak for God when it concerns or is related to my life.
And also, I like how you avoid all the points of logic in the responses. Here are a number of them that you have not addressed. So why don't you address them before you start breaking your elbow patting yourself on the back as to how great a job for the Lord you are doing in 'convicting' people:
1) Churchy - how is that adjective inaccurate in describing you?
2) On the other thread, you flattered Gen-2 by saying she 'loves and serves the Lord'. How do you reconcile that with all your garbage on this thread about your beliefs about needing to attend a church? Are you talking out both sides of your mouth there? Why or why not?
3) Churches - many of these handle snakes and have gay priests that molest children. How do you reconcile that with your views on churches?
It really sounds like you will go to any lengths to avoid facing the truth about yourself. Well, that actually is a human defense mechanism. Rather than admitting you are being judgemental, you instead just re-frame the problem to be someone else's. Wow - you could do well in TWI with that kind of approach. That's exactly what they do to avoid any kind of public apologies.
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potato
I find the information about the jesus freaks and early twi fascinating. I was a kid in the 60s but it was a pivotal point for our country and the kids with long hair living like the book of acts caused a lot of upheaval because they were different. it sounds like vpw couldn't stand their non-conformity unless he was controlling it.
did Jim's book ever publish? I would love to read it.
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chockfull
I would too, potato. And sorry for my part in the thread derail.
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TheHighWay
From the posts here, it sounds like Jim wasn't quite happy with his manuscript yet, and wasn't going to publish it until he got it "just right"... so no, I don't think it ever has been published, but I would SURE love to have a copy!!
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Tom
The book in question is:
The tipping point : how little things can make a big difference
Gladwell, Malcolm
It deals with how large-scale social movements come about. I saw many parallels to the Jesus Movement and tw (twi before Wierwille incorporated it and turned it into a hierarchical church) when it was still truly a grassroots movement – the organic Body of Christ in action. BTW, apparently, I was wrong about the number 200. It is 150.
Another fascinating book of his that deals with individual success is:
Outliers : the story of success
Gladwell, Malcolm, 1963-
Gladwell embarks on an intellectual journey through the world of "outliers"--the best and the brightest and the most successful. He investigates what makes high-achievers different [For example, as Bill Gates would be the first to admit, his success was due to many factors other than his brilliance, tireless curiousity, work ethic, and vision. Had he been born a few short years earlier or later, had he not gone to the only high school in the country that had computers at the time, had his parents no money or emotional support for him, his life would not having resulted in Microsoft or the revolution of personal computers] by looking at their culture, family, generation, and the idiosyncratic experiences of their upbringing.
It goes together rather well with The Tipping Point, although either book can be read alone.
Enjoy,
Tom
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Tom
So would I love to have a copy. BTW, if the manuscript can be salvaged, or salvaged in part, with a result that would be acceptable, I'd be glad to help out in the process - for anyone who might be listening. I can edit for grammar & content & style, & I know other people who can edit very well.
BTW, I private messaged with Jim Doop here on gs briefly about his book. I forget the name of the thread that caused Jim to private message me, but, people were hypothesizing about the why(s) The Way turned. I posted that the Word says that the root of all evil is the love of money, so we didn't have to look any further for the reason. Jim PM'd me in response, & said that I was right. It was all about money. Ah, I wrote something that he told me was in his book, but I just deleted it. I'm sorry; I suppose it would be imprudent for me to say anything about what he told me was in his book. Especially this. And especially if it still might get published - there are spies. Again, I'm sorry, but you can add 2+2. There were no specifics shared, & I don't know anything else about what is in his book.
Tom
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Tom
If you knew Jim Doop at all, I didn't know him all that well at all, but, if you knew him at all, his book is NOT all about happy days back on the farm. Everything I ever heard him say, or heard that he said, would take you up short. You would have to breathe deeply, admit what he was saying was the truth, & deal with it - if you wanted the truth to live. He was a true prophet. Despite the fact (because of the fact) that tw was not/is not the churchy hierarchical organization that twi became, the ministries were super-active. One of the reasons the Word so lived.
Tom
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waysider
That's like asking if B.G. Leonard ever took PFAL.
As I recall, Calvary Chapel and Vineyard spun, in part, out of the work Jim Doop was doing.
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excathedra
i wish i could read this whole thread, but i can't at the moment
i just have to say that my heart has always been prepared (grace beyond grace and mercy beyond mercy :))
i have been going through one of the toughest times of my life and i do feel hell and back is a gooddescription of my past
i just want to say that god/christ is my only reason i am getting through this and i am very very thakful
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TrustAndObey
Well, I don't think i would be too wrong in saying that we all are here for you if you need something. Prayers, support, whatever it be, just ask.. That is the purpose for the body, I believe.
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Tom
Anything I can do, you know I will. PM me if you want.
Love you, Ex,
Tom litwin
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Steve Lortz
For what it's worth, ex, my heart goes out to you.
Love,
Steve
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