Just a wee point here: The "ideal of the book" is Christ.
What the heck happened to speaking the truth of the gospel of Christ to one another in love? Life is not a continuum along a line between "churches don't do enough....are to enemic" and "micro-managing." Life is in Christ, and he lives among us when we gather in his name and speak the Word to one another in love like he commanded us.
Tom,
Thanks for your "wee point", but I really don't think Christ was the ideal in TWI, an interpretation of the scriptures was.....that was my point.
One the one hand I am reading that churches preach a watered down gospel....are not "spirit" filled or manifesting enough....and then I read the idea of accountability is unnerving....you figure out what I meant.
What happened to speaking the truth in love? Nothing. It happens all the time among Christians. Why? Do you think something happened to it?
The Holy Spirit is humble, and the reality of Him is often found in subtle more gentle things .... I am not sure He is grand and showy, but how He works is in a personal and meek manner. At least in my experience. His movements are not always immediately obvious.
I really believe we understand things very differently.
I did not mean to start any disagreements or arguments. I will say that Geisha, is probably one of the best, articulate Bible "teachers" I've read and whose posts I have enjoyed. She knows it, and I believe, lives it.
I also very much respect Tom and Chockful. All of us see things differently and what works best for our lives right now. My sister just loves her Baptist Church, and I've gone with her to it. Its very nice. But, just not for me currently. Maybe I will go one day, who knows.
I value Geisha's input immensely and think we need to just stand back a bit and agree to disagree :)
Maybe you are a bit confused....a church may MEET in a building.....but, it is a group of Christians who meet together in fellowship around the Lord. I wear jeans to church and rarely "dress up" for anything. What an assumption about people. You don't need church?
Geisha,
I think this above here was exactly my point. Some of us do this, yet are not associated with denominations, large local community churches, cults, or other organizations in buildings. I felt like you were starting to judge many of us in that category, saying we were looking at our own reflections in the water (implying we have no spiritual guidance), saying we are not 'looking for a place', equating not attending an official church with forsaking assembling together with saints, hinting that without accountability we 'know what happens', etc. I am not denigrating people who choose to associate with groups or organizations, however, between myself and God that is not the direction I believe He is leading me in currently. As a result, I actually seem to have exposure to many different people across many different churches. The body of Christ is much bigger than we all picture, and God is well able to keep track of all the different specialties and functions.
I am not attacking you personally. All in all I believe you are a wonderful person, very devoted, very giving, and in many ways a good Christian example.
As far as pastors and people having them because they need pastoring, I actually believe I fulfilled that role genuinely to the best of my ability within a corrupt organization for many, many years. Now it is time for a different direction. When I personally need pastoring, the Lord provides it through so many different means it is almost ridiculous. And I'm sure in the circles I travel in I contribute to that for others in a small way as well. As the Bible states, gifts and calling are without repentance.
I am glad we are having this conversation in spite of rough patches. This is very much learning to appreciate the different functions of the body. It transcends narrow-mindedness. The eye cannot say to the hand I have no need of you.
Hermit?? No Tom, you are not reading or understanding my points at all. My agreement and understanding of Geisha was not an attack of you or a negation of anything that you were posting. (Heck I didn`t even read it all..lol) I spoke of myself post twi, and the people that I have interacted with. They were simply my observations...ie that which we were taught to disdain and despise in the churches may indeed be the missing ingredients to that which can be instrumental in helping to heal and move on.
Trying to follow the same twi formulas and doctrines with people that only agree with our doctrinal perspectives, while comfortable and familiar, can I think limit ones perspective.
To me it seems to be a common difficulty after twi people experience....that because of a learned disdain of churches and the people that attend ... folks end up missing out on a great deal ....shrug
Geisha your analogy of the vine is a very apt one, what fires my husbands imagination and sound bells and whistles for him...bores me to tears... he has disdain for what energises and strengthens...me...what we find amazing is that we end up on the same page most of the time even though our beliefs have gone in such different directions...it took a long long time to learn that we didn`t have to, nor was it even healthy to walk the same path spiritually so to speak...lol it`s like you said...we are both still connected to the vine and the proof is in our continued health and growing...I get it :)
I just hate to see anyone dismiss the value and validity of what is out here simply because of a learned dislike...shrug.
Tom, I think that we were taught to disdain and dismiss those churches. I have come to the conclusion that if God could reach AND teach me in that evil snake infested twi ...as bad or in imo way worse than anything found in the supp-osed wicked witchcraft spirits governing a given pentecostal church (we have a dear friend that is a pentecostal minister btw)...shoot odds are he can work within the parameters boundaries and limitations of the doctrines of these churches to reach people no matter how distastfull we might personally find their practices.
My point being, that before you (we) sneer a church for their practices and understanding, you (one) might consider that is how God reaches, establishes and begins to lead an individual...what works and resounds with you might not necessarily work or resound with me or the people who enjoy fellowship within different understandings and parameters....and that others just might have long suits and understanding above and beyond our understanding in other equally important areas....shrug.
Having great volumes of doctrinal knowledge did very little to stem the flow of evil and hurt practiced in twi...so I have my doubts as to how important the search for doctrinal accuracy is compared to love God and love your neighbor.
edited to clarify who I meant as *you* it wasn`t directed at any one person :)
Tom, I think that we were taught to disdain and dismiss those churches. I have come to the conclusion that if God could reach AND teach me in that evil snake infested twi ...as bad or in imo way worse than the supp-osed wicked witchcraft spirits governing a pentecostal church (we have a dear friend that is a pentecostal minister)...shoot odds are he can work within the parameters boundaries and limitations of the doctrines of these churches to reach people no matter how distastefull you personally find their practices.
Before you sneer at a church for their practices and understanding, you might consider that is how God reaches, establishes and begins to lead an individual...shrug
See, now rascal, I thought you were talking about me, but you said I was wrong, I & apologized. Now, you are talking about me, or am I wrong again? Me? Sneering at a church for their practices and understanding? Where SUPP-OSED wicked witchcraft spirits govern? Maybe that wasn't what you WERE saying,but now IS what you're saying. Isn't THAT just a coincidence & a 1/2?
But somehow evil snake infested twi was way worse? Well, which snake would you like to be charmed with? So happens, I know a little something about witchcraft spirits from both the inside and the outside of their grasp. I'm not sneering, and I'm not judging; I'm making my own observation. Don't have to be a spiritual sharp shooter to know there is something wrong with someone rolling on the ground and convulsing - even if it is in name of worship. More subtle lack of control in the name of worship is still wrong. I know spiritual hate when I see it and spiritual love. And in answer to the initials church posts, I said how inspired the pastor could be by the true God of love, and people were born again there & loving and instructed very well in prophecy.
I got delivered from the spirit of witchcraft in tw. Not twi; tw, The Way (the Lord Jesus Christ), before it was incorporated by VP, I was delivered by Steve Heefner in the Way East, counterpart to what this thread is SUPPOSED to be about, Doop & the Way West & VPW. Actually, there were quite a few of us that had to be delivered from that particular evil before we could be free to move and grow in the Lord & let him grow his church so wonderfully as he did back then. Maybe that's one reason it happened. We KNEW what we had been delivered from. You don't KNOW me, and what I know, and what I don't know any more than I know you.
And FYI, I didn't need twi to teach me to not want to go to church. I came to that conclusion long before twi. That was one of the things I despised abut twi - all the putting down of churches. I didn't want to hear about churches. I wanted to hear about my Lord and his church.
Before you sneer at a church for their practices and understanding, you might consider that is how God reaches, establishes and begins to lead an individual...shrug
Silly me, & I thought it is supposed to the Word concerning the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ that is our power unto salvation. But all I read is church, church, church. I thought when she says "NO," the guy is supposed to accept that. What don't you understand about "NO."
Tom, You don`t see it, ok.....but that doesn`t mean I was intentionally disruptive or negate my identifying and agreeing with another`s point on this thread..really :)
When my perceptions and understanding were denigrated as churchy....ok...but is that parting insult necessarily Christian either?
Tom, I think that we were taught to disdain and dismiss those churches.
I agree. We were taught a condescending and elitist perspective in TWI towards churches and mainstream Christianity.
My point being, that before you sneer at a church ...
I don't do this. As a case in point, I was traveling, and stayed at a hotel across the street from a Baptist church offshoot - meaning a local community church whose pastors came from a Baptist background. On a Wed. night I desired some Christian conversation so walked over. I was fed a meal, treated with genuine hospitality and conversation. I attended the little service thing they had afterward. Basically this was more for church members, but they allowed guests. They were doing a ceremony where people joined their congregation. It involved immersion baptism. They had a little tub thing up front and people wore special robes for this with a bathing suit under it. They had a chance to share their personal testimony.
I didn't once have stupid thoughts about how water baptism was 'off the Word' or whether or not the people knew as much as I did. It was all genuine Christianity. Sure God was moving in that group of people. The ministers doing the ceremony were fulfilling their role in it, and came off as doing it without ego and with genuine motives. I thought that was a pretty cool church actually.
Now many aren't like that. In fact, a large number of them I have attended pressure you to fill out visitor cards, make you wear a little pin where you are a target for egotistical people to accost you, and act like high pressure salesmen because you walked through their door. Many of them have that same condescending type attitude that I dislike absolutely such as if you are not a member of their church then somehow you are a little inferior to them. They would probably act like that towards Jesus himself if he walked through the door, and not recognize him.
One problem in this overall thread is people being highly defensive about the very generalized term 'church'.
In fact, it kind of saddens me to observe this, but there is a disturbingly large number of people I encounter who outwardly label themselves Christians, but in their actions this appears to be a license to be obnoxious. They are less courteous, they are worse to deal with in business, they are narrowminded and bigoted, and in addition to all these beautiful traits they feel enabled and entitled in their behavior because 'they are Christians'. Also, it seems that people's interpersonal skills they are completely OK with them being very low because they are Christians.
As I stated before, the body of Christ is much larger than most of us realize, and we are not in charge of it. There is one head of it - the Lord Jesus Christ.
Now Rascal is being called names? "Churchy" That is classic. I love it! Rascal, do you mind if I call you that now? Catchy....got a nice feel to it.
I think you are absolutely right guys....maybe church really isn't the place for you.... you keep on practicing whatever faith it is, where you think you are discerning spirits of witchcraft, in a church where you know a genuine move of God in the pastor is taking place amidst that.....whatever faith that is....I am unfamiliar with it....but, if that is what you practice......I respect your right to do so. The name calling and insults might be OTT, but, we were defending the idea of Christians going to church after all...so, maybe that makes it okay.
If God is omnipresent, why do you need a church at all? Can't you communicate with God at the state park or the local beach or the public square of a large city? Now, if what we're really talking about is the value of having social interaction with other human beings, I can buy into that aspect of it.
Now Rascal is being called names? "Churchy" That is classic. I love it! Rascal, do you mind if I call you that now? Catchy....got a nice feel to it.
I think you are absolutely right guys....maybe church really isn't the place for you.... you keep on practicing whatever faith it is, where you think you are discerning spirits of witchcraft, in a church where you know a genuine move of God in the pastor is taking place amidst that.....whatever faith that is....I am unfamiliar with it....but, if that is what you practice......I respect your right to do so. The name calling and insults might be OTT, but, we were defending the idea of Christians going to church after all...so, maybe that makes it okay.
There Rascal...the heat is off from you.
Geisha, what frustrates me about discussing this with you is you just don't seem to get it. Right after a post where I share specifics about my direct involvment with a church, the next immediate post under it is "maybe church really isn't the place for you". What specifically is it that is so difficult to comprehend about a desire and practice to interact with other Christians in the body of Christ both inside and outside of specific church organizations and environments? What is so difficult to comprehend about the desire to do so without someone else being judgemental and condescending about it?
Maybe you do "get it" but you're simply angry that I called you out on an attitude, and so you won't concede anything in a discussion but really want to polarize it into sides. Whatever. All that is fine - as long as you get it straight with the Lord it's all good.
So, to spell it out a little more, no, it isn't 'whatever faith that is', it is the SAME faith you practice, with the same Lord, same Savior, and same body of Christ. It isn't where you 'think you are discerning spirits of witchcraft', that particular communication between a person and God is spiritual knowledge that isn't 'thinking'. Now I don't talk about those things publicly as I feel that kind of stuff is my personal private prayer life. What I would say about a situation like Tom describes is that I don't personally prefer to be around churches like Benny Hinn's where idiot preachers smack people in the head and poor deluded souls respond by wriggling around on the ground like they are having an epileptic attack. There I would say directly to the people stop smacking people in the head, and have some more respect for yourself, get off the ground and carry yourself with some dignity like a son or daughter of God. Spiritual matters are not supposed to work like that.
So Geisha, just stop it. Stop trying to polarize this discussion into those who belong to churches and those who don't. There is no need to 'defend' going to a church. It's absolutetly fine, and nobody ever said it wasn't on this thread. As is 'not attending a church'. And using the word 'churchy' to describe someone's behavior is really not an insult or name calling, any more than what you are doing with the offhand comments like 'whatever faith it is' is an insult or implied name calling. This is exactly what I'm talking about - non-Christians don't seem to have these kind of social defects interacting with one another. They can exchange ideas without all this ridiculous baggage. Their discussions don't predominantly involve the mind pictures of "attacks" and "defenses". This is just one very clear example where the Christians are just so far below par, and I'm in this argument too so before you get all "attacky" on me and need to be "defensive" just realize I'm including myself in this here.
In a way, this complete hijack of the original topic of the thread has some relevance to the thread. Jim Doop and Steve Heefner had something pure, genuine, and it was a movement of God. VPW came in with organization, structure, and turned it into legalism like we see happening in the history of the 1st century church in Acts with Peter, Paul, and Jerusalem.
Many times this is a universal problem in the growth of a Christian organization. Can you keep it genuine and grow it beyond a certain size? I believe so, but TWI didn't do that. Many traditional churches also have this problem. Close friends of ourselves and our family have a hard and fast rule that they do not remain members of a church once it exceeds 200 members - they move to a different one. It's their little rule to try and deal with this issue.
The natural human tendency is comparison, and Corinthians talks about how "comparing yourselves among yourselves" is not wise. Comparison leads to either condemnation or an egotistical or elitist viewpoint. That's the essence of the one body teachings in the Corinthian letters. Your human body just functions, doesn't compare and complain. So should the body of Christ.
In a way, this complete hijack of the original topic of the thread has some relevance to the thread. Jim Doop and Steve Heefner had something pure, genuine, and it was a movement of God. VPW came in with organization, structure, and turned it into legalism like we see happening in the history of the 1st century church in Acts with Peter, Paul, and Jerusalem.
Many times this is a universal problem in the growth of a Christian organization. Can you keep it genuine and grow it beyond a certain size? I believe so, but TWI didn't do that. Many traditional churches also have this problem. Close friends of ourselves and our family have a hard and fast rule that they do not remain members of a church once it exceeds 200 members - they move to a different one. It's their little rule to try and deal with this issue.
Absoluteley fascinating, Chockfull. Just a couple of months ago, I was reading a book about why certain things succeed and others don't. All kinds of things. Why & how the yoyo becomes popular every so often. I'm not sure he actually mentioned the yoyo, but stuff like that. Why certain businesses explode. Why certain churches explode. It had to do with group dynamics. There were a couple or three other factors that were intriinsically important & required, but one of the things, & I'm sorry I forget all the names, but there was a particular business, and a particular church, both of which were used as examples of certain principles in the study. The study was not prescriptive, telling people what they ought to do, but investigative, pursuing the reasons why certain social movements seemed to succeed when others failed.
This particular business - the investigator questioned was what would have been called an executive in most business structures. But his office was the same as anyone else's. He dressed like any other worker, and confessed to having no authority over and above that of any other worker. The conclusion was that the secret of their success was that they wouldn't let the organization get to the place that it needed any more than guess how many people to run the business - 200!!! When the business required more than that, they split the workers into two groups and opened another plant. The plant could be only a few miles down the road, but the key wasn't that they just split the work force at 200, but that each plant operated in total independence.
Appatently, 200 is a natural limit under which groups of people can operate in a manner they cannot at higher numbers. There is something they described as utilization of a group memory, sort of a group awareness. If someone in the think tank, or anywhere else in the organization, had an idea, he knew who he would need to talk with just down the hall in Research and Development, someone he knew in marketing, someone else in production - everyone he needed to talk to. If the idea was valid, everyone necessary to its accomplishment was already aware of it and involved in its accomplishment. If modifications were needed along the way, everyone was aware and engaged immediately.
Once more than 200 people are involved, the human mind isn't capable of keeping up the awareness of people's actions to keep the initiative in tact in his mind. Then it becomes necessary for someone "higher" up to introduce rules to keep any semblance of organization present in initiatives that arise - rules concerning authority, rules of procedure, rules of policy, rules concerning rules - you get the idea. If the group grows to over 200, & someone doesn't institute this hierarchical structure, the whole things falls apart. But the catch 22 is that, when the group grows to over 200, even if someone does institute a hierarchical structure, the effectiveness, the success potential, the group memory, group cooperation, group think, the "communion" of the group reality when it was under 200 - is lost.
So, it is not necessarily fatal to the overall success of the enterprise if a group grows to over 200, but it is not enough for the group to split into smaller groups of under 200. The key is that these groups must be allowed to operate independently.
Another example was a Christian group back in either colonial days (I think that was the time) or maybe early U.S. days (I think they were Baptist) that operated the same way. They spread the Word throughout the entire colonial area by developing small churches in an area, leaving them to operate independently, & moving on to develope another one on down the coast. They never developed big churches. I would presume there were ministries visiting the areas - I know, from historial accounts of the time, that's the way dedicated ministers operated in those days, but there was no hierarchical structure "governing" in these areas. And their success seems phenomenal. No phenomenon - that's the Body of Christ in operation. No Way Tree, or any other hierarchical structure needed (impeding), rather believers, speaking the truth in love, growing up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ.
Geisha, what frustrates me about discussing this with you is you just don't seem to get it. Right after a post where I share specifics about my direct involvment with a church, the next immediate post under it is "maybe church really isn't the place for you". What specifically is it that is so difficult to comprehend about a desire and practice to interact with other Christians in the body of Christ both inside and outside of specific church organizations and environments? What is so difficult to comprehend about the desire to do so without someone else being judgemental and condescending about it?
Maybe you do "get it" but you're simply angry that I called you out on an attitude, and so you won't concede anything in a discussion but really want to polarize it into sides. Whatever. All that is fine - as long as you get it straight with the Lord it's all good.
So, to spell it out a little more, no, it isn't 'whatever faith that is', it is the SAME faith you practice, with the same Lord, same Savior, and same body of Christ. It isn't where you 'think you are discerning spirits of witchcraft', that particular communication between a person and God is spiritual knowledge that isn't 'thinking'. Now I don't talk about those things publicly as I feel that kind of stuff is my personal private prayer life. What I would say about a situation like Tom describes is that I don't personally prefer to be around churches like Benny Hinn's where idiot preachers smack people in the head and poor deluded souls respond by wriggling around on the ground like they are having an epileptic attack. There I would say directly to the people stop smacking people in the head, and have some more respect for yourself, get off the ground and carry yourself with some dignity like a son or daughter of God. Spiritual matters are not supposed to work like that.
So Geisha, just stop it. Stop trying to polarize this discussion into those who belong to churches and those who don't. There is no need to 'defend' going to a church. It's absolutetly fine, and nobody ever said it wasn't on this thread. As is 'not attending a church'. And using the word 'churchy' to describe someone's behavior is really not an insult or name calling, any more than what you are doing with the offhand comments like 'whatever faith it is' is an insult or implied name calling. This is exactly what I'm talking about - non-Christians don't seem to have these kind of social defects interacting with one another. They can exchange ideas without all this ridiculous baggage. Their discussions don't predominantly involve the mind pictures of "attacks" and "defenses". This is just one very clear example where the Christians are just so far below par, and I'm in this argument too so before you get all "attacky" on me and need to be "defensive" just realize I'm including myself in this here.
In a way, this complete hijack of the original topic of the thread has some relevance to the thread. Jim Doop and Steve Heefner had something pure, genuine, and it was a movement of God. VPW came in with organization, structure, and turned it into legalism like we see happening in the history of the 1st century church in Acts with Peter, Paul, and Jerusalem.
Many times this is a universal problem in the growth of a Christian organization. Can you keep it genuine and grow it beyond a certain size? I believe so, but TWI didn't do that. Many traditional churches also have this problem. Close friends of ourselves and our family have a hard and fast rule that they do not remain members of a church once it exceeds 200 members - they move to a different one. It's their little rule to try and deal with this issue.
The natural human tendency is comparison, and Corinthians talks about how "comparing yourselves among yourselves" is not wise. Comparison leads to either condemnation or an egotistical or elitist viewpoint. That's the essence of the one body teachings in the Corinthian letters. Your human body just functions, doesn't compare and complain. So should the body of Christ.
Do you really believe that my wanting ex-cultists who have been so lead astray about Christianity,( that about the only thing recognizable is the name Jesus)...........to find a church home with a good overseer, some accountabilty, and a sweet fellowship with genuine loving Christians.....around sound doctrine.... is something I have to get right with the Lord?
Do you really believe the Lord is leading you away from this? Where do you think we find these things? TWI fellowships? Offshoots? Offshoots of other cults? On the fringe of Christianity looking in seeking to redefine it? No, we find it in churches....and yes...Christ IS preached there...just not the same one believed on by the cults. The gospel is taught there...just not the same gospel some here believe....and YES the Holy Spirit is there working in Christians....they are just not operating Him because it is as He the Spirit wills...and it is not as we wield Him.
Please don't tell me what I do and do not know.....because I do actually know who I place my faith in.....and I do know what I can and cannot share fully with people here. I am much more aware of it than you.
If I were to try and have a discussion about how we love the Holy Spirit because of that gentle and meek way He deals with us. How our heart skips a beat in His presence and we are filled with worship and praise.....or how the symbol of the dove speaks to us of His nature and person.....melts our hearts.....how He is with us, comforts and teaches us.....I can PROMISE you I would end up in a debate about pronouns. That is not sharing a faith! That is seeking to redefine it.
If I were to say ....BTW you and I individually are not "a Son of God".....we are a child of God ....it is collectively we are the Son's of God.....Jesus is THE Son of God.....someone would take umbrage and debate would ensue.
Or if I said....Jesus became sin, became the thing God despises and God did turn away and pour out His wrath on Him who never sinned....because that is what we deserved....I know I would hear about it...because I have. Or that it was God Himself who saved us? Who did this for us? If I spoke of Jesus' eternal nature.....how He has always been....would we as Christians share that fully? How He emptied Himself? Could we praise and awe at how God interacts within Himself diverse as 3 yet unified as one? No.
If I said ...yeah...God sometimes allows bad things to happen, because it is sometimes the only way we learn......watch out! 15 pages of drama.
Why? Because evoking the name Jesus and quoting scripture doesn't mean we all believe the same thing about Him. What we believe about Jesus, The Holy Spirit...The Father...what scripture says.....it does matter to our faith...it defines it. who we call on to save us...matters.
So, I respect Tom's right to believe whatever he wants.....and yours for that matter....but, I don't think it is the same faith, whether you declare it to be or not.. ...I don't like that it isn't the same, but I am not going to pretend it is...and I still think a good Christian church home is a sound bet for all of us who call ourselves Christians...I stand by that.
And to add this morning......why don't you take a look at your attitude Chockfull, all because I don't except everything everyone says as gospel truth....of course I don't believe Jesus is leading you away from the structure and consistent pastoral guidance set up in church. Why would I? Because you say so....I know that is not how the Lord works.
Of course I don't believe what Tom says about his experience with the Holy Spirit.....spirits of "witchcraft" and genuine moves of God....should I? Is that how the Holy Spirit operates? Taking ONE Christian in a church setting and giving him revelation.....but, letting all the others just wander in that mess...including the overseer? That would mean Tom was more important to God than all those others there.....another little nugget....Christians don't get possessed.
In general, do I have to just accept what people tell me about movements of God......when the things they say stand in opposition to who God is?
You may not like who I believe God is.....but, that would make sense if we don't share the same faith. Isn't that the problem many of us had with churches and why we sought outside church?
You feel fine making judgments about me....maybe because I refuse to conform to what you think and how you think. That I don't accept all things as true or genuine? Isn't it a bit ironic? Isn't that the problem you have with me? I don't "get" it? I get it....I just don't accept it. So, according to you....I am narrow minded....
Ever occur to you I might have something of value to impart even though it might be other than how you think I should believe? Isn't that what you expect me to do and see?
I'm not going back and forth with you any more - it's divisive, and completely off topic with discussing the genuine movement of God present in the early days of TWI with Jim Doop and Steve Heefner.
Quite obviously from your words you don't believe that it was a genuine movement of God. You only believe genuine movements of God happen in 'churches'.
So do yourself a favor - why keep wasting your time on people you don't believe to be geniune Christians? Go back to your little church where you are comfortable, and head up the baking committee or something else like that.
I for one will not be brought under false authority again. Not through power-mongering cult leaders, and definitely not through narrow-minded 'churchy' people who feel they have the corner on the market to genuine Christianity.
I never knew Jim Doop. But, from everything I've heard about him over the last 40 years, I can only surmise that, right or wrong, his motives were genuine and altruistic.
I'm not going back and forth with you any more - it's divisive, and completely off topic with discussing the genuine movement of God present in the early days of TWI with Jim Doop and Steve Heefner.
Quite obviously from your words you don't believe that it was a genuine movement of God. You only believe genuine movements of God happen in 'churches'.
So do yourself a favor - why keep wasting your time on people you don't believe to be geniune Christians? Go back to your little church where you are comfortable, and head up the baking committee or something else like that.
I for one will not be brought under false authority again. Not through power-mongering cult leaders, and definitely not through narrow-minded 'churchy' people who feel they have the corner on the market to genuine Christianity.
-Chockfull
So much for this "I am not attacking you personally. All in all I believe you are a wonderful person, very devoted, very giving, and in many ways a good Christian example."
I knew when I read that it was a line. Narrow mindedness? All this response to me...the I don't "get" it and the "stop it" is all because I don't conform to the way you think I should believe.
I have an opinion. You don't like it. I don't really care.
Oh, and for the record...I never met Jim Doop and didn't mention him in my posts. If he was genuine or full of it...I don't have a clue.
And Chockfull....sorry to disrupt your "church" here. Asking me to leave...is that like Mark and Avoid?
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Ham
If so, I hope it is far more encompassing.. than some little movement in California, or New York..
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Wow, well here’s what I see, and what I think I’m seeing. As always, God has the big picture. I’m just following the tracks the best I can. Sunesis: “…does it seem to you, less people are getting b
geisha779
Feel better? Maybe you are a bit confused....a church may MEET in a building.....but, it is a group of Christians who meet together in fellowship around the Lord. I wear jeans to church and rarely "d
geisha779
Tom,
Thanks for your "wee point", but I really don't think Christ was the ideal in TWI, an interpretation of the scriptures was.....that was my point.
One the one hand I am reading that churches preach a watered down gospel....are not "spirit" filled or manifesting enough....and then I read the idea of accountability is unnerving....you figure out what I meant.
What happened to speaking the truth in love? Nothing. It happens all the time among Christians. Why? Do you think something happened to it?
The Holy Spirit is humble, and the reality of Him is often found in subtle more gentle things .... I am not sure He is grand and showy, but how He works is in a personal and meek manner. At least in my experience. His movements are not always immediately obvious.
I really believe we understand things very differently.
Take that for whatever you want or don't.....
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geisha779
Thanks sister...and I love you too. :)
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chockfull
Geisha,
I think this above here was exactly my point. Some of us do this, yet are not associated with denominations, large local community churches, cults, or other organizations in buildings. I felt like you were starting to judge many of us in that category, saying we were looking at our own reflections in the water (implying we have no spiritual guidance), saying we are not 'looking for a place', equating not attending an official church with forsaking assembling together with saints, hinting that without accountability we 'know what happens', etc. I am not denigrating people who choose to associate with groups or organizations, however, between myself and God that is not the direction I believe He is leading me in currently. As a result, I actually seem to have exposure to many different people across many different churches. The body of Christ is much bigger than we all picture, and God is well able to keep track of all the different specialties and functions.
I am not attacking you personally. All in all I believe you are a wonderful person, very devoted, very giving, and in many ways a good Christian example.
As far as pastors and people having them because they need pastoring, I actually believe I fulfilled that role genuinely to the best of my ability within a corrupt organization for many, many years. Now it is time for a different direction. When I personally need pastoring, the Lord provides it through so many different means it is almost ridiculous. And I'm sure in the circles I travel in I contribute to that for others in a small way as well. As the Bible states, gifts and calling are without repentance.
I am glad we are having this conversation in spite of rough patches. This is very much learning to appreciate the different functions of the body. It transcends narrow-mindedness. The eye cannot say to the hand I have no need of you.
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Tom
Hi Chockfull, I just wanted to give you a quick thanks for your insight, voice, & heart - so thank you!!
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rascal
Hermit?? No Tom, you are not reading or understanding my points at all. My agreement and understanding of Geisha was not an attack of you or a negation of anything that you were posting. (Heck I didn`t even read it all..lol) I spoke of myself post twi, and the people that I have interacted with. They were simply my observations...ie that which we were taught to disdain and despise in the churches may indeed be the missing ingredients to that which can be instrumental in helping to heal and move on.
Trying to follow the same twi formulas and doctrines with people that only agree with our doctrinal perspectives, while comfortable and familiar, can I think limit ones perspective.
To me it seems to be a common difficulty after twi people experience....that because of a learned disdain of churches and the people that attend ... folks end up missing out on a great deal ....shrug
Geisha your analogy of the vine is a very apt one, what fires my husbands imagination and sound bells and whistles for him...bores me to tears... he has disdain for what energises and strengthens...me...what we find amazing is that we end up on the same page most of the time even though our beliefs have gone in such different directions...it took a long long time to learn that we didn`t have to, nor was it even healthy to walk the same path spiritually so to speak...lol it`s like you said...we are both still connected to the vine and the proof is in our continued health and growing...I get it :)
I just hate to see anyone dismiss the value and validity of what is out here simply because of a learned dislike...shrug.
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rascal
Oh, and what you do for people Geisha?? You have my respect, people will see God`s hand in what you do far more than any scriptural sermon.
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rascal
oops double post
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Tom
Ah, I stand corrected - thanks.
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rascal
sorry
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rascal
Tom, I think that we were taught to disdain and dismiss those churches. I have come to the conclusion that if God could reach AND teach me in that evil snake infested twi ...as bad or in imo way worse than anything found in the supp-osed wicked witchcraft spirits governing a given pentecostal church (we have a dear friend that is a pentecostal minister btw)...shoot odds are he can work within the parameters boundaries and limitations of the doctrines of these churches to reach people no matter how distastfull we might personally find their practices.
My point being, that before you (we) sneer a church for their practices and understanding, you (one) might consider that is how God reaches, establishes and begins to lead an individual...what works and resounds with you might not necessarily work or resound with me or the people who enjoy fellowship within different understandings and parameters....and that others just might have long suits and understanding above and beyond our understanding in other equally important areas....shrug.
Having great volumes of doctrinal knowledge did very little to stem the flow of evil and hurt practiced in twi...so I have my doubts as to how important the search for doctrinal accuracy is compared to love God and love your neighbor.
edited to clarify who I meant as *you* it wasn`t directed at any one person :)
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Tom
See, now rascal, I thought you were talking about me, but you said I was wrong, I & apologized. Now, you are talking about me, or am I wrong again? Me? Sneering at a church for their practices and understanding? Where SUPP-OSED wicked witchcraft spirits govern? Maybe that wasn't what you WERE saying,but now IS what you're saying. Isn't THAT just a coincidence & a 1/2?
But somehow evil snake infested twi was way worse? Well, which snake would you like to be charmed with? So happens, I know a little something about witchcraft spirits from both the inside and the outside of their grasp. I'm not sneering, and I'm not judging; I'm making my own observation. Don't have to be a spiritual sharp shooter to know there is something wrong with someone rolling on the ground and convulsing - even if it is in name of worship. More subtle lack of control in the name of worship is still wrong. I know spiritual hate when I see it and spiritual love. And in answer to the initials church posts, I said how inspired the pastor could be by the true God of love, and people were born again there & loving and instructed very well in prophecy.
I got delivered from the spirit of witchcraft in tw. Not twi; tw, The Way (the Lord Jesus Christ), before it was incorporated by VP, I was delivered by Steve Heefner in the Way East, counterpart to what this thread is SUPPOSED to be about, Doop & the Way West & VPW. Actually, there were quite a few of us that had to be delivered from that particular evil before we could be free to move and grow in the Lord & let him grow his church so wonderfully as he did back then. Maybe that's one reason it happened. We KNEW what we had been delivered from. You don't KNOW me, and what I know, and what I don't know any more than I know you.
And FYI, I didn't need twi to teach me to not want to go to church. I came to that conclusion long before twi. That was one of the things I despised abut twi - all the putting down of churches. I didn't want to hear about churches. I wanted to hear about my Lord and his church.
Silly me, & I thought it is supposed to the Word concerning the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ that is our power unto salvation. But all I read is church, church, church. I thought when she says "NO," the guy is supposed to accept that. What don't you understand about "NO."
Yuck!
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Tom
Look, you've got this thread sufficiently hijacked - at least for the time being. I'm out of here.
Nice move - CHURCHY move. Yuck.
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rascal
Tom, You don`t see it, ok.....but that doesn`t mean I was intentionally disruptive or negate my identifying and agreeing with another`s point on this thread..really :)
When my perceptions and understanding were denigrated as churchy....ok...but is that parting insult necessarily Christian either?
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chockfull
I agree. We were taught a condescending and elitist perspective in TWI towards churches and mainstream Christianity.
I don't do this. As a case in point, I was traveling, and stayed at a hotel across the street from a Baptist church offshoot - meaning a local community church whose pastors came from a Baptist background. On a Wed. night I desired some Christian conversation so walked over. I was fed a meal, treated with genuine hospitality and conversation. I attended the little service thing they had afterward. Basically this was more for church members, but they allowed guests. They were doing a ceremony where people joined their congregation. It involved immersion baptism. They had a little tub thing up front and people wore special robes for this with a bathing suit under it. They had a chance to share their personal testimony.
I didn't once have stupid thoughts about how water baptism was 'off the Word' or whether or not the people knew as much as I did. It was all genuine Christianity. Sure God was moving in that group of people. The ministers doing the ceremony were fulfilling their role in it, and came off as doing it without ego and with genuine motives. I thought that was a pretty cool church actually.
Now many aren't like that. In fact, a large number of them I have attended pressure you to fill out visitor cards, make you wear a little pin where you are a target for egotistical people to accost you, and act like high pressure salesmen because you walked through their door. Many of them have that same condescending type attitude that I dislike absolutely such as if you are not a member of their church then somehow you are a little inferior to them. They would probably act like that towards Jesus himself if he walked through the door, and not recognize him.
One problem in this overall thread is people being highly defensive about the very generalized term 'church'.
In fact, it kind of saddens me to observe this, but there is a disturbingly large number of people I encounter who outwardly label themselves Christians, but in their actions this appears to be a license to be obnoxious. They are less courteous, they are worse to deal with in business, they are narrowminded and bigoted, and in addition to all these beautiful traits they feel enabled and entitled in their behavior because 'they are Christians'. Also, it seems that people's interpersonal skills they are completely OK with them being very low because they are Christians.
As I stated before, the body of Christ is much larger than most of us realize, and we are not in charge of it. There is one head of it - the Lord Jesus Christ.
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geisha779
Now Rascal is being called names? "Churchy" That is classic. I love it! Rascal, do you mind if I call you that now? Catchy....got a nice feel to it.
I think you are absolutely right guys....maybe church really isn't the place for you.... you keep on practicing whatever faith it is, where you think you are discerning spirits of witchcraft, in a church where you know a genuine move of God in the pastor is taking place amidst that.....whatever faith that is....I am unfamiliar with it....but, if that is what you practice......I respect your right to do so. The name calling and insults might be OTT, but, we were defending the idea of Christians going to church after all...so, maybe that makes it okay.
There Rascal...the heat is off from you.
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waysider
If God is omnipresent, why do you need a church at all? Can't you communicate with God at the state park or the local beach or the public square of a large city? Now, if what we're really talking about is the value of having social interaction with other human beings, I can buy into that aspect of it.
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chockfull
Geisha, what frustrates me about discussing this with you is you just don't seem to get it. Right after a post where I share specifics about my direct involvment with a church, the next immediate post under it is "maybe church really isn't the place for you". What specifically is it that is so difficult to comprehend about a desire and practice to interact with other Christians in the body of Christ both inside and outside of specific church organizations and environments? What is so difficult to comprehend about the desire to do so without someone else being judgemental and condescending about it?
Maybe you do "get it" but you're simply angry that I called you out on an attitude, and so you won't concede anything in a discussion but really want to polarize it into sides. Whatever. All that is fine - as long as you get it straight with the Lord it's all good.
So, to spell it out a little more, no, it isn't 'whatever faith that is', it is the SAME faith you practice, with the same Lord, same Savior, and same body of Christ. It isn't where you 'think you are discerning spirits of witchcraft', that particular communication between a person and God is spiritual knowledge that isn't 'thinking'. Now I don't talk about those things publicly as I feel that kind of stuff is my personal private prayer life. What I would say about a situation like Tom describes is that I don't personally prefer to be around churches like Benny Hinn's where idiot preachers smack people in the head and poor deluded souls respond by wriggling around on the ground like they are having an epileptic attack. There I would say directly to the people stop smacking people in the head, and have some more respect for yourself, get off the ground and carry yourself with some dignity like a son or daughter of God. Spiritual matters are not supposed to work like that.
So Geisha, just stop it. Stop trying to polarize this discussion into those who belong to churches and those who don't. There is no need to 'defend' going to a church. It's absolutetly fine, and nobody ever said it wasn't on this thread. As is 'not attending a church'. And using the word 'churchy' to describe someone's behavior is really not an insult or name calling, any more than what you are doing with the offhand comments like 'whatever faith it is' is an insult or implied name calling. This is exactly what I'm talking about - non-Christians don't seem to have these kind of social defects interacting with one another. They can exchange ideas without all this ridiculous baggage. Their discussions don't predominantly involve the mind pictures of "attacks" and "defenses". This is just one very clear example where the Christians are just so far below par, and I'm in this argument too so before you get all "attacky" on me and need to be "defensive" just realize I'm including myself in this here.
In a way, this complete hijack of the original topic of the thread has some relevance to the thread. Jim Doop and Steve Heefner had something pure, genuine, and it was a movement of God. VPW came in with organization, structure, and turned it into legalism like we see happening in the history of the 1st century church in Acts with Peter, Paul, and Jerusalem.
Many times this is a universal problem in the growth of a Christian organization. Can you keep it genuine and grow it beyond a certain size? I believe so, but TWI didn't do that. Many traditional churches also have this problem. Close friends of ourselves and our family have a hard and fast rule that they do not remain members of a church once it exceeds 200 members - they move to a different one. It's their little rule to try and deal with this issue.
The natural human tendency is comparison, and Corinthians talks about how "comparing yourselves among yourselves" is not wise. Comparison leads to either condemnation or an egotistical or elitist viewpoint. That's the essence of the one body teachings in the Corinthian letters. Your human body just functions, doesn't compare and complain. So should the body of Christ.
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Tom
Absoluteley fascinating, Chockfull. Just a couple of months ago, I was reading a book about why certain things succeed and others don't. All kinds of things. Why & how the yoyo becomes popular every so often. I'm not sure he actually mentioned the yoyo, but stuff like that. Why certain businesses explode. Why certain churches explode. It had to do with group dynamics. There were a couple or three other factors that were intriinsically important & required, but one of the things, & I'm sorry I forget all the names, but there was a particular business, and a particular church, both of which were used as examples of certain principles in the study. The study was not prescriptive, telling people what they ought to do, but investigative, pursuing the reasons why certain social movements seemed to succeed when others failed.
This particular business - the investigator questioned was what would have been called an executive in most business structures. But his office was the same as anyone else's. He dressed like any other worker, and confessed to having no authority over and above that of any other worker. The conclusion was that the secret of their success was that they wouldn't let the organization get to the place that it needed any more than guess how many people to run the business - 200!!! When the business required more than that, they split the workers into two groups and opened another plant. The plant could be only a few miles down the road, but the key wasn't that they just split the work force at 200, but that each plant operated in total independence.
Appatently, 200 is a natural limit under which groups of people can operate in a manner they cannot at higher numbers. There is something they described as utilization of a group memory, sort of a group awareness. If someone in the think tank, or anywhere else in the organization, had an idea, he knew who he would need to talk with just down the hall in Research and Development, someone he knew in marketing, someone else in production - everyone he needed to talk to. If the idea was valid, everyone necessary to its accomplishment was already aware of it and involved in its accomplishment. If modifications were needed along the way, everyone was aware and engaged immediately.
Once more than 200 people are involved, the human mind isn't capable of keeping up the awareness of people's actions to keep the initiative in tact in his mind. Then it becomes necessary for someone "higher" up to introduce rules to keep any semblance of organization present in initiatives that arise - rules concerning authority, rules of procedure, rules of policy, rules concerning rules - you get the idea. If the group grows to over 200, & someone doesn't institute this hierarchical structure, the whole things falls apart. But the catch 22 is that, when the group grows to over 200, even if someone does institute a hierarchical structure, the effectiveness, the success potential, the group memory, group cooperation, group think, the "communion" of the group reality when it was under 200 - is lost.
So, it is not necessarily fatal to the overall success of the enterprise if a group grows to over 200, but it is not enough for the group to split into smaller groups of under 200. The key is that these groups must be allowed to operate independently.
Another example was a Christian group back in either colonial days (I think that was the time) or maybe early U.S. days (I think they were Baptist) that operated the same way. They spread the Word throughout the entire colonial area by developing small churches in an area, leaving them to operate independently, & moving on to develope another one on down the coast. They never developed big churches. I would presume there were ministries visiting the areas - I know, from historial accounts of the time, that's the way dedicated ministers operated in those days, but there was no hierarchical structure "governing" in these areas. And their success seems phenomenal. No phenomenon - that's the Body of Christ in operation. No Way Tree, or any other hierarchical structure needed (impeding), rather believers, speaking the truth in love, growing up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ.
Yea and amen.
Tom
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geisha779
Do you really believe that my wanting ex-cultists who have been so lead astray about Christianity,( that about the only thing recognizable is the name Jesus)...........to find a church home with a good overseer, some accountabilty, and a sweet fellowship with genuine loving Christians.....around sound doctrine.... is something I have to get right with the Lord?
Do you really believe the Lord is leading you away from this? Where do you think we find these things? TWI fellowships? Offshoots? Offshoots of other cults? On the fringe of Christianity looking in seeking to redefine it? No, we find it in churches....and yes...Christ IS preached there...just not the same one believed on by the cults. The gospel is taught there...just not the same gospel some here believe....and YES the Holy Spirit is there working in Christians....they are just not operating Him because it is as He the Spirit wills...and it is not as we wield Him.
Please don't tell me what I do and do not know.....because I do actually know who I place my faith in.....and I do know what I can and cannot share fully with people here. I am much more aware of it than you.
If I were to try and have a discussion about how we love the Holy Spirit because of that gentle and meek way He deals with us. How our heart skips a beat in His presence and we are filled with worship and praise.....or how the symbol of the dove speaks to us of His nature and person.....melts our hearts.....how He is with us, comforts and teaches us.....I can PROMISE you I would end up in a debate about pronouns. That is not sharing a faith! That is seeking to redefine it.
If I were to say ....BTW you and I individually are not "a Son of God".....we are a child of God ....it is collectively we are the Son's of God.....Jesus is THE Son of God.....someone would take umbrage and debate would ensue.
Or if I said....Jesus became sin, became the thing God despises and God did turn away and pour out His wrath on Him who never sinned....because that is what we deserved....I know I would hear about it...because I have. Or that it was God Himself who saved us? Who did this for us? If I spoke of Jesus' eternal nature.....how He has always been....would we as Christians share that fully? How He emptied Himself? Could we praise and awe at how God interacts within Himself diverse as 3 yet unified as one? No.
If I said ...yeah...God sometimes allows bad things to happen, because it is sometimes the only way we learn......watch out! 15 pages of drama.
Why? Because evoking the name Jesus and quoting scripture doesn't mean we all believe the same thing about Him. What we believe about Jesus, The Holy Spirit...The Father...what scripture says.....it does matter to our faith...it defines it. who we call on to save us...matters.
So, I respect Tom's right to believe whatever he wants.....and yours for that matter....but, I don't think it is the same faith, whether you declare it to be or not.. ...I don't like that it isn't the same, but I am not going to pretend it is...and I still think a good Christian church home is a sound bet for all of us who call ourselves Christians...I stand by that.
And to add this morning......why don't you take a look at your attitude Chockfull, all because I don't except everything everyone says as gospel truth....of course I don't believe Jesus is leading you away from the structure and consistent pastoral guidance set up in church. Why would I? Because you say so....I know that is not how the Lord works.
Of course I don't believe what Tom says about his experience with the Holy Spirit.....spirits of "witchcraft" and genuine moves of God....should I? Is that how the Holy Spirit operates? Taking ONE Christian in a church setting and giving him revelation.....but, letting all the others just wander in that mess...including the overseer? That would mean Tom was more important to God than all those others there.....another little nugget....Christians don't get possessed.
In general, do I have to just accept what people tell me about movements of God......when the things they say stand in opposition to who God is?
You may not like who I believe God is.....but, that would make sense if we don't share the same faith. Isn't that the problem many of us had with churches and why we sought outside church?
You feel fine making judgments about me....maybe because I refuse to conform to what you think and how you think. That I don't accept all things as true or genuine? Isn't it a bit ironic? Isn't that the problem you have with me? I don't "get" it? I get it....I just don't accept it. So, according to you....I am narrow minded....
Ever occur to you I might have something of value to impart even though it might be other than how you think I should believe? Isn't that what you expect me to do and see?
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chockfull
Geisha,
I'm not going back and forth with you any more - it's divisive, and completely off topic with discussing the genuine movement of God present in the early days of TWI with Jim Doop and Steve Heefner.
Quite obviously from your words you don't believe that it was a genuine movement of God. You only believe genuine movements of God happen in 'churches'.
So do yourself a favor - why keep wasting your time on people you don't believe to be geniune Christians? Go back to your little church where you are comfortable, and head up the baking committee or something else like that.
I for one will not be brought under false authority again. Not through power-mongering cult leaders, and definitely not through narrow-minded 'churchy' people who feel they have the corner on the market to genuine Christianity.
-Chockfull
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waysider
I never knew Jim Doop. But, from everything I've heard about him over the last 40 years, I can only surmise that, right or wrong, his motives were genuine and altruistic.
May he rest in peace.
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Tzaia
same attitude - different loyalty
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geisha779
So much for this "I am not attacking you personally. All in all I believe you are a wonderful person, very devoted, very giving, and in many ways a good Christian example."
I knew when I read that it was a line. Narrow mindedness? All this response to me...the I don't "get" it and the "stop it" is all because I don't conform to the way you think I should believe.
I have an opinion. You don't like it. I don't really care.
Oh, and for the record...I never met Jim Doop and didn't mention him in my posts. If he was genuine or full of it...I don't have a clue.
And Chockfull....sorry to disrupt your "church" here. Asking me to leave...is that like Mark and Avoid?
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waysider
I didn't say anything about him being genuine (as in "the real deal").
I said: "I can only surmise that, right or wrong, his motives were genuine and altruistic."
One would think, though, that after reading a nine page thread dedicated to Jim Doop and his work, you would at least have "a clue".
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