For me more and more personally, my church in my understanding is one without walls. It consists of people who touch my life and I touch theirs. There are amazing Christians within a 2 mile radius of where I live, "diamonds in the rough", once I dropped the egotistical blinders and judgemental attitudes. They are all in my 'church'. My earthly family are amazing people and beautiful believers, and in my 'church'. In a sense, with the barriers that are broken down with the Internet, there are many more that can touch me and vice versa, such as great people like yourself here on GS. Of course the 'touch' is more limited but my God's big enough to sort that out. Many of you guys in GS are my 'church'.
I met an amazing friend from Iran, raised a Moslem, never considered Christianity. He hates the narrow-minded interpretation of the Koran the leaders there maintain, and the power-mongering in back of it. He tells of US sanctions making it unable for them to do airline repairs in his country and thousands dying in plane crashes every year as a result - the common people, as the government is rich. He received a telemarketing call from someone helping orphans. He didn't blow them off, he investigated. He one-upped them, becoming personally involved in becoming a benefactor to orphan children in Iran and placing them through his own expense with childless Iranian couples in the US. Why this story? Because he too is in my 'church'.
I think the true intent of the body and bride of Christ is nothing like the narrow-minded, David Duke like KKK interpretation of it that those fooled enough to drink the TWI kool-aid espouse. I don't need a building, babysitting, a paid staff who make a living off 'The Word' tm to experience the real church. I don't need ABS 75% to HQ / 25% local to experience the real 'church'. I don't need another intercessor when I have a Savior. I don't need to 'find a church that I'm happy with', when God has provided one all around me. I don't need a 'filter' for God for me, I need Him 'unfiltered'.
I am not 'alone' where I used to have 'a family'. I used to have people all around me, showing up at my house regularly, engaging in limited, narrow-minded conversation, talking to me with flattering words. I was just a part of their ritual. I was a means to their end about feeling better about themselves, their bribe to God so that things could go right in their lives. In so many ways they were just way too dense to touch their lives. They would say they were my friends but they weren't. So they've dropped off and others have stepped up. Not my choice always, but that's just fine. I don't need to spend a lot of time worrying about evangelizing, teaching 'the Whole Word' tm, just live, move, interact from the heart with those in front of me.
I don't know, man. That's where I'm at with all this lately. I agree with you - if you sit around and wait for a harvest, you'll grow old with unfulfilled hopes. Dream with God and move ahead a step or two. And take man's blinders off that he's put on the eyes. The love of God doesn't need an 'Advanced Class syllabus'. Membership in an organization, while fine for many, is just another form of vanity to me.
Again, I may be crazy, man. I'm just trying to put things together the best I can and make sense of my world and living life with God in it.
Fabulous posts Tom and Chockful. I live my life looking for Christians - the ones in life, people you meet. For example, at my job, I have "found" the Christians. It evolved over time. We hang out, have lunch, occasionally talk about things and I end up sharing what God has taught me lately, or this or that. They think I am some kind of genius - I laugh, but they ask, how do you know so much? I tell them I pray and ask God to teach me and to show me Christ. It slowly dawned on me - what I have is basically a fellowship - its just Christians fellowshipping, at lunch, in the hallways, the guy from the mailroom who gives me the mail, etc.
I used to think, well, maybe I should find a church, but my family, friends, even neighbors - the Christians are out there. I just ask God to find them for me.
One thing about churches I have noticed, is they are so intent on "growing" their church, they have shows, music, plays, get lots of people, then, don't want to offend them so teach a watered down gospel, or, continually teach "milk." the older ones drift away because they are ready for meat and there is none.
The Lord knows - I'll open my mouth if someone's heart is prepared.
That's another thing - its talking to people whose hearts are prepared. When Christians witness to "natural man" for lack of a better word - no wonder they get annoyed and feel Christians are pushy people who, and tell them to butt out. I don't blame them. The Holy Spirit prepares peoples' hearts. I believe God can show us who is ready and would like to know. Like my homeless guy who I buy the street newspaper from and slip him money here and there - I just "knew" we were children of the same God and every morning he likes a little Word - a thought, and we go on our way. He is an old, homeless black man (who recently now has a place with a family member) named James, but he is so faithful selling his street newspaper. Christians are everywhere. I think, those of us outside the walls, make our own fellowship whereever we go, with the people we meet outside the gate (I love that analogy).
Now, I have a question for you, does it seem to you, less people are getting born again? It just doesn't seem to be as many as when we were young, or, because we aren't young any more, we wouldn't know because we're out of the loop. I think about it at times and wonder.
Church can be a great place for accountability. Most of the Christian men I know from local churches have accountability partners or groups....they get together to pray a few times a week....they fellowship and they help each other stay on track. Without that accountability......
well....we know what can happen.
and.......anyone can look at their own reflection in the water.
Out of curiosity...if you don't even go to a church.....how do you know there is a watered down gospel being preached in many churches?
Hi Geisha :) Arrrrggggghhhhh - I just wrote a huge answer to you and it disappeared. Its getting late, I'll start over in the morning. That is so annoying.
Hi Geisha :) Arrrrggggghhhhh - I just wrote a huge answer to you and it disappeared. Its getting late, I'll start over in the morning. That is so annoying.
Well, you know I love hearing from you! :) So, if you get a chance I look forward to it.
I will tell you though....I know many, many, many Christians from churches....my house is like Grand Central for young Christian 20 somethings....and you would most likely be blown away by what these kids understand and moreover....what they do. I am in awe of them.
I actually found a niche post TWI...it took a long time and some inner-reflection on the "why's" of not being comfortable before I found a home. The people I know...I sometimes feel so unworthy of their friendship....they are amazing....I love the Christians I know...I respect them, admire them, and LEARN from them. So, I see a different side perhaps than those of you who don't have a church or desire one...or believe you need one.
No church is perfect and some are a better fit than others, but church is where Christian often congregate together ......it is a community of believers....it is a family.
To add: There are some really amazing Pastors and teachers as well..in churches!
Wow, well here’s what I see, and what I think I’m seeing. As always, God has the big picture. I’m just following the tracks the best I can.
Sunesis: “…does it seem to you, less people are getting born again? It just doesn't seem to be as many as when we were young, or, because we aren't young any more, we wouldn't know because we're out of the loop. I think about it at times and wonder.”
Good question. There’s a mega-church here. It’s growing like crazy. IMO, they’re teaching a watered down gospel (Geisha, another good question – later, OK?). My earlier remark, “their teachings are sometimes inspired. That’s a testimony to Gods’ infinite grace; I’m so thankful,” was about churches like this one. In fact, the church is named “Christ Fellowship.” Here is an email I got recently from my wife, uh, oh, can’t find the dang thing – but the gist was she said this guy had delivered a great sermon in the midst of a great service. She had to say so because we both saw this guy as just a salesman the first time we saw him “teach.” Could have been more Word, she said, but his point was good, & made well.
So, point is many outside the gate are coming into their gate, & many are being born again. All praise goes to God who, as always, is doing the best he can with what he has to work with.
Yes, Sunesis, I think we are “out of the loop,” or should I rather say, we are out of the many loops that are presently presenting themselves as THE loop. Remember, I teach 11th grade English. Many of my believing students are quite active in the faith & ready to say so given the opportunity. I have many sanctions on what I can say in class, but they don’t, & I can certainly afford them the opportunity to speak. I can say the bible says so & so. I can even say what I believe – I just can’t say what I believe is the truth. You really can’t touch a piece of American Lit. that doesn’t have allusions or foundations in the bible – really, that’s an amazing reality. Believing students are amazed that I know & believe. They would be in my “fellowship” in a heartbeat if I were allowed to hold one on campus – which, of course, I’m not.
So, yes, I think that we are outside of the many loops that God is using to take c/o his own.
But, I don’t think that leaves us out of God’s loop. He has, generally, throughout history, worked more outside the gates than within. He has no more respect for man’s gates than he has respect of persons – none.
As far as churches go, Geisha, I’ve been to quite a few over the years.
Lately, I’ve been listening to Christ Fellowship, especially if my wife recommends it. OK, here’s the list.
Christ Fellowship
Old ex-Way grad from back in the day
Another old (not SO old) ex-Way grad
Pentecostal
Even been to some Way fellowships lately
Christ Fellowship: Watered down – read above. Filled with many beautiful believers – how beautiful are the feet…, loving. Not only are they a mega-church, but they have a home fellowship contingent. They call them small groups. We went to one for quite a while – felt like God led us to this group.. It was very refreshing. I loved the way they all interacted – the Spirit was working among the group many times.
I even took one of their “foundational classes.” The class was run by a very humble and Spirit inspired individual. But when I tried to approach him on the subject of the Spirit – specifically power in evidence, he was like a chameleon. Couldn’t get a straight answer from him.
I KNEW the lady who ran the small fellowship was overflowing with Spirit, so one day I asked her about why it seemed like many of the people in the church were overflowing with spiritual power, but wouldn't admit it.. She admitted to speaking in tongues, and agreed with me that it seemed like quite a few of the people in the church did so also, and that there seemed to be an unspoken silencing on the whole subject. It was as weird to her as it was to me. Although she was more mature spiritually than what was taught in the church in many ways, she would never contradict church doctrine or teach anything not already “baptized” as OK by the church. Everything basically proceeded from that guy who wrote “Power for Abundant Living.” I guess they think that any talk of the specifics of the Spirit might scare away all the new people. All the hard corps “fundamentalist” churches term the church Laodicean.
Old ex-Way grad from back in the day: Good teaching, but added stuff to the gospel. Stuff I had to do to be made whole. I guess the gospel isn’t sufficient for that purpose. Why do people have to always add to the gospel? Sure clue that their “gospel” is watered down.
Another old (not SO old) ex-Way grad: I’ll mention this guy’s name. It is Mike Brophy. I’ve joined a phone hook-up, & downloaded one of his classes off the internet. Very refreshing. The gospel was presented as complete, the redemptive work of Christ as sufficient for every need. I called him a while ago, & we spoke. In the course of the conversation, he asked me what I working in the Word. I hesitated to answer him honestly, because I had been working a couple of things that definitely contradict Way doctrine – things about the One Spirit, & I didn’t want to start with an argument, but I figured what the heck, & told him. Turns out he and others he works with had worked through all that some years back & come to the same realization. God is up to something.
Pentecostal: Saw some beautiful believers there, & some nice prophecy, but they wanted our money and our commitment before they even got to know us. Sure clue you are engaging in a hierarchical power structure that has the One Body under wraps. That was it for me, but I kept going because my wife liked the fellowship & the praise worship. We hung out long enough to see that there were some very wicked witchcraft spirits that were governing the thing. Yet God blessed them where he could, as his manner is.
Even been to some Way fellowships lately: These guys love me from way back – I brought a lot of healing to their lives. They would love me no matter what I did. Strange, but I presented the stuff to them that I brought up to Mike Brophy, & they were receptive – said they’ve been wondering about these things for years. They said we should put this stuff together in a presentable form & show it to the Way HQ – maybe it could be in the next advanced class. Ha, good luck on that one, but it is good to hang with them from time to time. They have matured so well spiritually. Does my heart good to see it. Their fellowships don’t really have any fellowship to them until the fellowship proper is over with though.
As far as accountability, “Church can be a great place for accountability. Most of the Christian men I know from local churches have accountability partners or groups....they get together to pray a few times a week....they fellowship and they help each other stay on track. Without that accountability......
well....we know what can happen.”
The word “accountability” scares me. I don’t know about you, but I was still with the way when they were micromanaging everyone’s’ life – all in the name of accountability, so we all know what can happen with that too. I’m thankful to have a few believers who know me & will speak the Word to me where I need it – I suppose that’s what you’re talking about really. I hope so.
Anyway, Geisha, that brings us to present day. I am through looking for a church. I am through looking for anything on my own. I am looking to the God of all increase. He is up to something these days, & I am following the tracks. It is between my heart and his. And due to his big heart, my heart is growing bigger. He’ll send as many as I tell him my heart is ready to receive in love. They’re changing me, & I’m changing them.
Church can be a great place for accountability. Most of the Christian men I know from local churches have accountability partners or groups....they get together to pray a few times a week....they fellowship and they help each other stay on track. Without that accountability......
well....we know what can happen.
and.......anyone can look at their own reflection in the water.
Out of curiosity...if you don't even go to a church.....how do you know there is a watered down gospel being preached in many churches?
Churches can be a place for accountability. They can also be a place for politics, a profession for those so inclined, and a source for divisions. Accountability is not by nature greater in a church environment - there are as many accounts of "what can happen" within as there are without. Anyone looking at their own reflection in the water seeking the Christ within will not be disappointed. A paid pastor doing his job presenting a message doesn't necessarily improve the reflection.
I personally have been to many churches. They do a lot of good, but sometimes the lack of depth reminds me of why I left a denomination in the first place and sought TWI.
Now, I have a question for you, does it seem to you, less people are getting born again? It just doesn't seem to be as many as when we were young, or, because we aren't young any more, we wouldn't know because we're out of the loop. I think about it at times and wonder.
Sunesis, honestly I don't know. Lately I seem to look at that as God's responsibility, and I just try to move with Him. But come to think of it, many of the youth and youth groups in churches are doing well, great places for young people.
Tom and Chockfull, thank you for your sharings. I don't spend much time around young people, but my neice goes to a wonderful Christian College in Colorado and loves it. My nephew is taking 7 months before his freshman year of college to go with a group doing ministry in Thailand, then Turkey. I know kids love their youth ministries, and Tom, that must be awesome with the young believers in your class. That is just wonderful to hear. Sounds like you've done a lot of different church exploring too.
Ham - yeah, it is insanity doing the same things expecting a different result :) Oh well, I've decided to pull back from that area a bit. It is what it is and will be what it will be.
Geisha, I have read quite a few different Christian sites and forums over the years on the 'net. The one I look at now is one of the biggest on the net. You still see the drama, the questions, is our Pastor leading us to hell??? (just kidding - but close) Should we leave our church? Is our church becoming emergent? It almost seems that people are being called out of their churches many times. I see the same drama and politics I saw in TWI.
I have a dear friend who is a Methodist Pastor, has been for a couple of decades and recently received her Ph.d from Oxford. We were talking and she said its a terrible problem as church attendance has been way down now for years. Not just her church only, but in general. I know the bigger, or mega churches use music, bands, plays, productions, etc. to get people there. It just seems that so many churches want to grow their church, but not "offend" the new people. So the teachings are kept simple. I asked two of my friends, what does your church do for people who want to learn more. That's where small bible study groups either at the church or at someone's home comes in.
So, I don't know, maybe I overstated. My boss, who has loved his church for 13 years recently told me he is thinking of leaving with his family. He feels it is getting off track. Maybe its just that people come and go from churches as their lives and needs change.
Anyway, Geisha, that brings us to present day. I am through looking for a church. I am through looking for anything on my own. I am looking to the God of all increase. He is up to something these days, & I am following the tracks. It is between my heart and his. And due to his big heart, my heart is growing bigger. He’ll send as many as I tell him my heart is ready to receive in love. They’re changing me, & I’m changing them.
Amen, bro. I'm with you 100% on that. Great sharing too.
Geisha, I have read quite a few different Christian sites and forums over the years on the 'net. The one I look at now is one of the biggest on the net. You still see the drama, the questions, is our Pastor leading us to hell??? (just kidding - but close) Should we leave our church? Is our church becoming emergent? It almost seems that people are being called out of their churches many times. I see the same drama and politics I saw in TWI.
I have a dear friend who is a Methodist Pastor, has been for a couple of decades and recently received her Ph.d from Oxford. We were talking and she said its a terrible problem as church attendance has been way down now for years. Not just her church only, but in general. I know the bigger, or mega churches use music, bands, plays, productions, etc. to get people there. It just seems that so many churches want to grow their church, but not "offend" the new people. So the teachings are kept simple. I asked two of my friends, what does your church do for people who want to learn more. That's where small bible study groups either at the church or at someone's home comes in.
So, I don't know, maybe I overstated. My boss, who has loved his church for 13 years recently told me he is thinking of leaving with his family. He feels it is getting off track. Maybe its just that people come and go from churches as their lives and needs change.
I guess it all depends on who you ask and what you are listening for...and I mean no disrespect, but maybe you should check out some place like Village church in Denton Texas....which grew so quickly they had to open separate campuses. Great Podcasts btw... :) and people from all over the world have come together to pray for a beloved Pastor who has a brain tumor. People have really united ....I am touched to be a part of it and to genuinely love this Pastor I have never met.
People love to complain about church because there is no such thing as a perfect church...which makes sense...since a church is made up of people...and people are not perfect.
I am just not sure why we would not be running to be with each other in family and fellowship? To be with those who love the Lord...in prayer and worship together? Church is where we congregate and we meet each other....for that purpose. Especially if we know so much...we should be out there sharing our gifts...because our gifts are not for ourselves but for the edification of the body.
People in China risk death and imprisonment to hold church....Many places have laws against holding church, there are prisons are filled with people who have known how important is is to gather together anyway....I can't ever imagine taking it for granted.
He'll send as many as I tell him my heart is ready to receive in love. They're changing me, & I'm changing them.
I don't even know what this means. Again, I mean no disrespect but, it is really not about you....it is about God. As many as your heart can receive for what? To love? To praise with...to worship with...to serve with....what do you mean?
If you are not even looking for a place....it doesn't sound like you are willing to receive anybody.
We probably have very different ideas of how God works and what our part in all this means.....fair enough I suppose...but, we should not forsake gathering together. Which to me implies that we can forsake it.
I guess it all depends on who you ask and what you are listening for...and I mean no disrespect, but maybe you should check out some place like Village church in Denton Texas....which grew so quickly they had to open separate campuses. Great Podcasts btw... :) and people from all over the world have come together to pray for a beloved Pastor who has a brain tumor. People have really united ....I am touched to be a part of it and to genuinely love this Pastor I have never met.
Sure. And Joel Olsteen's church has grown similarly. It sounds like your motivations 'to be a part of it' are more that you want to be caught up in something big as opposed to the personal touch of Christian relationships with those you actually know and interact with.
People love to complain about church because there is no such thing as a perfect church...which makes sense...since a church is made up of people...and people are not perfect.
I have no complaints about church. I do have complaints about people acting in a condescending fashion towards others. You know, kind of like making comments about 'anyone can look at their reflection in the water'. Why don't you look at your own reflection in the water and take the beam out of your eye that you see in it?
I am just not sure why we would not be running to be with each other in family and fellowship? To be with those who love the Lord...in prayer and worship together? Church is where we congregate and we meet each other....for that purpose. Especially if we know so much...we should be out there sharing our gifts...because our gifts are not for ourselves but for the edification of the body.
Where exactly did you get the idea that 'we' are not doing this? It's not necessary to dress up and go to a building to accomplish this. Jesus didn't do that.
People in China risk death and imprisonment to hold church....I can't ever imagine taking it for granted.
Just my thoughts.
People in China risk death and imprisonment for having more than one child. Or at least they used to. Now China is growing to be mostly capitalist and those controls aren't there any longer. Watchman Nee, one of the greatest Christian examples in all of China, who literally was imprisoned from 1952 until he died in 1972 for his faith, traveled all over the Chinese countryside personally interacting with other Christians, fellowshipping, discussing the Bible, teaching some. Not 'holding church'.
I don't even know what this means. Again, I mean no disrespect but, it is really not about you....it is about God. As many as your heart can receive for what? To love? To praise with...to worship with...to serve with....what do you mean?
I just love how people say 'I mean no disrespect', then the next thing that comes out of their mouth is disrespect. Do hypocrisy much? There is a physical, emotional, and mental limit to how many people you can interact with in a given day, week, month. Yes, love, praise with, worship with, serve with, all of the above.
If you are not even looking for a place....it doesn't sound like you are willing to receive anybody.
Because Jesus himself spent his life and ministry wandering around 'looking for a place'. It doesn't sound like you read the Bible much with understanding. It sounds more like you are enamored with the hype surrounding religion. I would suggest less ego and more reading. You are not better than your Christian brothers and sisters because you like to go to church. I'd be willing to bet that Tom does more genuine interaction, receiving, giving with 30 students on a daily basis than you do on any day of the week. Including your dress up and act holy day.
We probably have very different ideas of how God works and what our part in all this means.....fair enough I suppose...but, we should not forsake gathering together. Which to me implies that we can forsake it.
You certainly seem to have a very different idea about how God works than I do. He is not a respecter of persons, groups of people, or buildings. He doesn't like it when people denigrate their brothers and sisters through ego. Maybe you really ought to look at the exact teaching of what is meant by the assembling together of the saints. How about when 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, I will be there? Why does it say 2 or 3, not 200 or 300? If you want to have your little narrowminded interpretation of that scripture to mean that the Bible teaches you're supposed to go to church, then that's your problem. But when you bring that attitude into my church then it also becomes my problem. Which is why I'm telling you straight that attitude is very poor and not an example of Christian teachings and discipline.
I don't even know what this means. Again, I mean no disrespect but, it is really not about you....it is about God. As many as your heart can receive for what? To love? To praise with...to worship with...to serve with....what do you mean?
If you are not even looking for a place....it doesn't sound like you are willing to receive anybody.
We probably have very different ideas of how God works and what our part in all this means.....fair enough I suppose...but, we should not forsake gathering together. Which to me implies that we can forsake it.
"To love? To praise with...to worship with...to serve with"
Exactly - see, you know what it means, "receive in love." God's love.
I just received this email shortly before I received the email about your post. In part, it read, "I look forward to dialoguing more regarding reality in Christ as our days draw closer to our Lord’s return.
In Christ with you forever (no strings attached)."
He knows what it means also. God is bringing his people together. I know you said you meant no disrespect, but where does the remark, "it is really not about you....it is about God" come from? I don't think I ever indicated that it was about me.
I just don't equate a place with people. I don't need to look for a place. God does the placing, & he has placed me in the Body where it pleases him. I've just come to believe that. If I didn't, I'd probably be still looking for a place, instead of having my eyes open to all the beautiful believers that the God of ALL increase has placed by my place. He's much better at placing than I am.
"We probably have very different ideas of how God works and what our part in all this means"
Maybe so.
".....fair enough I suppose...but, we should not forsake gathering together"
I do get together with believers, but I don't want to place myself - again, God does the placing. I think Jesus Christ is doing something here, & I don't want to tell Christ how to build his church - or tell him that I have some PLACE else to go. I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense, Geisha. It's the best I can do at the moment.
Sure. And Joel Olsteen's church has grown similarly. It sounds like your motivations 'to be a part of it' are more that you want to be caught up in something big as opposed to the personal touch of Christian relationships with those you actually know and interact with.
I have no complaints about church. I do have complaints about people acting in a condescending fashion towards others. You know, kind of like making comments about 'anyone can look at their reflection in the water'. Why don't you look at your own reflection in the water and take the beam out of your eye that you see in it?
Where exactly did you get the idea that 'we' are not doing this? It's not necessary to dress up and go to a building to accomplish this. Jesus didn't do that.
People in China risk death and imprisonment for having more than one child. Or at least they used to. Now China is growing to be mostly capitalist and those controls aren't there any longer. Watchman Nee, one of the greatest Christian examples in all of China, who literally was imprisoned from 1952 until he died in 1972 for his faith, traveled all over the Chinese countryside personally interacting with other Christians, fellowshipping, discussing the Bible, teaching some. Not 'holding church'.
I just love how people say 'I mean no disrespect', then the next thing that comes out of their mouth is disrespect. Do hypocrisy much? There is a physical, emotional, and mental limit to how many people you can interact with in a given day, week, month. Yes, love, praise with, worship with, serve with, all of the above.
Because Jesus himself spent his life and ministry wandering around 'looking for a place'. It doesn't sound like you read the Bible much with understanding. It sounds more like you are enamored with the hype surrounding religion. I would suggest less ego and more reading. You are not better than your Christian brothers and sisters because you like to go to church. I'd be willing to bet that Tom does more genuine interaction, receiving, giving with 30 students on a daily basis than you do on any day of the week. Including your dress up and act holy day.
You certainly seem to have a very different idea about how God works than I do. He is not a respecter of persons, groups of people, or buildings. He doesn't like it when people denigrate their brothers and sisters through ego. Maybe you really ought to look at the exact teaching of what is meant by the assembling together of the saints. How about when 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, I will be there? Why does it say 2 or 3, not 200 or 300? If you want to have your little narrowminded interpretation of that scripture to mean that the Bible teaches you're supposed to go to church, then that's your problem. But when you bring that attitude into my church then it also becomes my problem. Which is why I'm telling you straight that attitude is very poor and not an example of Christian teachings and discipline.
Feel better?
Maybe you are a bit confused....a church may MEET in a building.....but, it is a group of Christians who meet together in fellowship around the Lord. I wear jeans to church and rarely "dress up" for anything. What an assumption about people. You don't need church?
I am not the one sitting from a lofty perch raining blanket judgment down on the nameless, faceless of God's people by declaring them political and shallow.....especially without being there addressing the problems I say I see. Without using the gifts I claim to have to make a difference. Could have sworn I said I had a church and many, many, many Christians in my life....up close and personal too...as most of them are in my home at one time or another. So, how you get I don't interact is anyone's guess.
I love it when someone pulls out the old beam in the eye when they hear something they don't like....but, if I hadn't been in TWI and had the same issues with church that are being discussed here...it might possibly be relevant....but I have HAD to pull that beam out of my eye....and now I see church differently.
You can tell it to the Lord Chockful...tell Him how awful His church is....tell Him His people are not worthy of your presence....tell Him you don't need it and your attitude is justified because He didn't go to church...He did go to the Temple though....I simply made an observation.....tell Him how narrow minded I am because I pointed out meeting together, accountability, and having a fellowship of believers is important to our Christian walk...... How we are to esteem each other....and a church is where you find Christians meeting.
We have pastors because people need pastoring....you and I included.....so we don't get taken so far afield....not all pastors are good pastors, but the ones I know are good pastors. They are out there....in churches ......because that is how it is set up. We have teachers because people need sound doctrine...... again, teachers teach in churches...in ministry. We go to a church to gather together and to be a part of a particular body of Christians for the purpose of learning together, helping one another, accountability, communion, fellowship and to have others who also love God to share our burdens with......oh the horror of it all. Bad Geisha for pointing this out. For wanting this for you....tell the Lord you don't like the way it is set up. Maybe you can start something else...like a small bible study that meets in the home and is set up like a tree...with twigs, branches, and a root.
As far as China is concerned or a place like Entreia I am sure those still in prison for having a church, being a pastor, or simply being caught with a bible....will be glad to hear this is all over now.....except those who have been executed that is. You don't know what you are talking about....but, if you became involved in serving the persecuted CHURCH, as we call them....you might. Groups like VOM train people to go the CHURCHES to speak to CHRISTIANS about the plight of the persecuted CHURCH. CHURCHES have them come speak to their CONGREGATIONS so that the CHURCH here better might understand better what is happening to our BRETHREN in other parts of the world. So we might better serve them.
Enamored of religion? No...but I do like church because it is made up of Christians and I am enamored of them. We are suppose to be. Not standing from the outside pointing fingers....there are other people who have that job.....it shouldn't come from those who say they belong to the same body.
I understand what you are saying geisha, We have attended a marvelous little church as the kids have grown up. The people at first glance were certainly not whom I would typically consider hanging out with....and no doubt vice versa...lol but this minister has the tremendous ability to see the christ in an individual ... finding and valuing long suits and ones unique insights and perspectives.
I have learned so much above and beyond doctrinal issues from so many many people in this church and surrounding community, but it took me putting aside my own personal aquired arrogance and bias as to what and who were important.
Our beloved minister and now dear friend will retire this month...who knows if the lessons she has imparted will survive in this particular group...if we can continue to see one another as individual works in progress, one together in Christ...strengthening and caring for one another...I don`t know.
I just think that in dismissing churches or certain people because they don`t measure up to our particular standards or conform to our belief systems ... one runs the risk of limited understanding.... I have found that folks have a tendency to become confined..when only allowing input from people whom they like or totally agree with...
Makes sense, one doesn`t have to challenge ones self if the only people they allow into their sphere of influence are those who believe exactly as or are willing to learn to believe exactly as we do..no?
edited to add... Geisha, I was typing this before you posted, your post said it all better and more succinctly, but I will leave my thoughts out here any way
I just think that in dismissing churches or certain people because they don`t measure up to our particular standards or conform to our belief systems ... one runs the risk of limited understanding.... I have found that folks have a tendency to become confined..when only allowing input from people whom they like or totally agree with...
Makes sense, one doesn`t have to challenge ones self if the only people they allow into their sphere of influence are those who believe exactly as or are willing to learn to believe exactly as we do..no?
edited to add... Geisha, I was typing this before you posted, your post said it all better and more succinctly, but I will leave my thoughts out here any way
That is it exactly Rascal....sometimes it is good to be committed to something....and work out the differences in love and put in the effort. That is one way we grow in grace. We don't have to all be cookie cutter alike in church, but when we are connected to the vine instead of man or the ideal of a book....it is so much more personal. We are accountable to each other before the Lord.
TWI took something and perverted it....what fellowship should really be....so I do understand why people would shy away. VP came from the church and he took what we are as a family of Christians...used all the right words....but twisted the meaning as a way of control and abuse. Things like accountability took on an insane meaning...or micro managing as Tom points out....but, as Christians we are accountable.
VP just ruined what should be something we desire and made it something we want to avoid....he did it with most all of it. The ironic thing is....we got used to the intensity of it and it seems a catch-22 now.....churches don't do enough....are to enemic....but we don't want micro-managing or the intensity.....sometimes it seems it is a no win.
People will never find a perfect church. There are none. That doesn't mean we, as Christians, don't need a fellowship or church.
Maybe you are a bit confused....a church may MEET in a building.....but, it is a group of Christians who meet together in fellowship around the Lord. I wear jeans to church and rarely "dress up" for anything. What an assumption about people. You don't need church?
I am not the one sitting from a lofty perch raining blanket judgment down on the nameless, faceless of God's people by declaring them political and shallow.....especially without being there addressing the problems I say I see. Without using the gifts I claim to have to make a difference. Could have sworn I said I had a church and many, many, many Christians in my life....up close and personal too...as most of them are in my home at one time or another. So, how you get I don't interact is anyone's guess.
I love it when someone pulls out the old beam in the eye when they hear something they don't like....but, if I hadn't been in TWI and had the same issues with church that are being discussed here...it might possibly be relevant....but I have HAD to pull that beam out of my eye....and now I see church differently.
You can tell it to the Lord Chockful...tell Him how awful His church is....tell Him His people are not worthy of your presence....tell Him you don't need it and your attitude is justified because He didn't go to church...He did go to the Temple though....I simply made an observation.....tell Him how narrow minded I am because I pointed out meeting together, accountability, and having a fellowship of believers is important to our Christian walk...... How we are to esteem each other....and a church is where you find Christians meeting.
We have pastors because people need pastoring....you and I included.....so we don't get taken so far afield....not all pastors are good pastors, but the ones I know are good pastors. They are out there....in churches ......because that is how it is set up. We have teachers because people need sound doctrine...... again, teachers teach in churches...in ministry. We go to a church to gather together and to be a part of a particular body of Christians for the purpose of learning together, helping one another, accountability, communion, fellowship and to have others who also love God to share our burdens with......oh the horror of it all. Bad Geisha for pointing this out. For wanting this for you....tell the Lord you don't like the way it is set up. Maybe you can start something else...like a small bible study that meets in the home and is set up like a tree...with twigs, branches, and a root.
As far as China is concerned or a place like Entreia I am sure those still in prison for having a church, being a pastor, or simply being caught with a bible....will be glad to hear this is all over now.....except those who have been executed that is. You don't know what you are talking about....but, if you became involved in serving the persecuted CHURCH, as we call them....you might. Groups like VOM train people to go the CHURCHES to speak to CHRISTIANS about the plight of the persecuted CHURCH. CHURCHES have them come speak to their CONGREGATIONS so that the CHURCH here better might understand better what is happening to our BRETHREN in other parts of the world. So we might better serve them.
Enamored of religion? No...but I do like church because it is made up of Christians and I am enamored of them. We are suppose to be. Not standing from the outside pointing fingers....there are other people who have that job.....it shouldn't come from those who say they belong to the same body.
Why is it that others are making judgments, but you are just making observations? Oh, nevermind, please don't answer that - it's rhetorical. You use that word accountability often. I don't read that in the revelation to the church - or any revelation anywhere. I see submitting ourselves to one another in the fear of God and speaking the truth in love. If that's what you mean, fine. It is the power of the gospel concerning Christ spoken and believed that makes us whole. If that's what you mean, fine. Any accountability defined outside that is man's set up, not the Lord's. It's vanity. If submitting to one another in the fear of God and speaking the truth to one another is what we are talking about here, I'd prefer saying so. It gives the glory to God and his son.
not all pastors are good pastors, but the ones I know are good pastors. They are out there....in churches ......because that is how it is set up. We have teachers because people need sound doctrine...... again, teachers teach in churches...in ministry. We go to a church to gather together and to be a part of a particular body of Christians for the purpose of learning together, helping one another, accountability, communion, fellowship and to have others who also love God to share our burdens with......oh the horror of it all. Bad Geisha for pointing this out. For wanting this for you....tell the Lord you don't like the way it is set up. Maybe you can start something else...like a small bible study that meets in the home and is set up like a tree...with twigs, branches, and a root.
Teachers teach outside of churches also, and pastors pastor outside of churches.
They are out there....in churches ......because that is how it is set up. ....tell the Lord you don't like the way it is set up.
That's a non-sequitor, geisha. Just because it IS set up that way, doesn't mean the LORD set it up that way.
Maybe you can start something else...like a small bible study that meets in the home and is set up like a tree...with twigs, branches, and a root.
The Way Tree: another man-made structure. It was just the systematizing of error in the name of accountability. They also pawned it off as the Lord having set it up that way.
There is a physical, emotional, and mental limit to how many people you can interact with in a given day, week, month. Yes, love, praise with, worship with, serve with, all of the above.
It sounds more like you are enamored with the hype surrounding religion. I would suggest less ego and more reading. You are not better than your Christian brothers and sisters because you like to go to church. I'd be willing to bet that Tom does more genuine interaction, receiving, giving with 30 students on a daily basis than you do on any day of the week. Including your dress up and act holy day.
You certainly seem to have a very different idea about how God works than I do. He is not a respecter of persons, groups of people, or buildings. He doesn't like it when people denigrate their brothers and sisters through ego. Maybe you really ought to look at the exact teaching of what is meant by the assembling together of the saints. How about when 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, I will be there? Why does it say 2 or 3, not 200 or 300? If you want to have your little narrowminded interpretation of that scripture to mean that the Bible teaches you're supposed to go to church, then that's your problem. But when you bring that attitude into my church then it also becomes my problem. Which is why I'm telling you straight that attitude is very poor and not an example of Christian teachings and discipline.
Maybe that is why we set time aside every week to gather together and praise, worship, listen and learn...possibly?
You know what Chockfull this really really hurt me...because you don't know me or what I do.....and you made this assumption by my defense of CHURCH!! Normally, my personal life is none of your business...but here, let me tell you what I have been doing for the last month or so....
Two times a week I go to someone's house who has liver cancer. My husband takes him to his chemo appointment and I stay at his house to clean. The first time he let me into the house I nearly threw up from the smell. It was wretched and filthy is not descript enough.
What I do.... is clean up after his dog who doesn't get walked when I am not there because he is too weak to take him out. The dog uses the floor as a place to potty. I clean up mountains of dog poop and urine first thing...and that is so I can get to the piles of dishes and cans and bottles laying in the kitchen. Once I get the junk cleared away...I have the pleasure of cleaning up the food spills and getting rid of the rancid food laying around. Then I get down on my hands and knees and bleach his kitchen floor....the counters....clean the fridge....remove the trash and clean the bile from the walls. Once the kitchen is immaculate I move to the bathroom....
He had colon cancer first and has little control over his functions so I get to clean a toilet covered in runny, smelly human feces....then the walls, then the shower and then the floor..basically I have been wading in poop for the last month.
I change a disgusting bed where the dog sleeps with him....scrub his floors and walls, paint, organize loads of mail unopened for two years....do all his laundry ...I take it home and buy the best detergent and in my "spare" time do his poop covered clothes. I use cheaper detergent on my clothes...I can't afford both.
THEN, I make him meals so that he can eat....after buying his groceries...and paying for them. I have bought new curtains for his home....replaced bedding....replaced a good deal of pee soaked furniture and moved an actual truck load of trash from his house. I take his trash and recycling every week to my house...at my expense....three dollars a bag...and until this week when I finally got it under control....10 bags a week.
This is also the first week the house no longer smells...trust me, that is a big deal. I have made his disgusting house into a home....so that he has a place to heal. He has no one else...I am it.
This is a guy who is NOT a Christian....he is someone who got angry with me years ago over real estate and stopped speaking to me....and was very cruel to me. So he doesn't feel bad about the mess I clean up...I tell him I love doing it...I love a challenge....and that it is my pleasure. You know what...it is.
I have two people living in my house...rent free...on me...because they got into finacial trouble and we want to help them get back on their feet.....they are two Christian kids who got in over their heads....and we know what it is like to need a hand. I cook and clean for them.
Lucky me...can you guess which gifts the Lord blessed me with?
I go to prisons and I visit with prisoners....I speak to people about the persecuted church.....and I am a wife and mom who works two jobs. I have two jobs yet no money to spend on myself...I buy my clothes at the salvation army or walmart.....I get my hair cut twice a year.....anything good I have was a gift or from a time when I actually gave a care about that stuff. I don't anymore...and somehow I manage to get by.
Real enough for you? Oh wait did I mention my husband is disabled and can only work part-time? The money making falls to me? Then there is our 10 acres and 100 year old house to see to....I have to hire someone to mow....I have huge gardens and outbuilding which are falling down and I get to do most of it myself...a leaky roof that isn't getting fixed and a load of worries I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
But, as long as you know all about me and can make such judgments.....
I understand what you are saying geisha, We have attended a marvelous little church as the kids have grown up. The people at first glance were certainly not whom I would typically consider hanging out with....and no doubt vice versa...lol but this minister has the tremendous ability to see the christ in an individual ... finding and valuing long suits and ones unique insights and perspectives.
I have learned so much above and beyond doctrinal issues from so many many people in this church and surrounding community, but it took me putting aside my own personal aquired arrogance and bias as to what and who were important.
Our beloved minister and now dear friend will retire this month...who knows if the lessons she has imparted will survive in this particular group...if we can continue to see one another as individual works in progress, one together in Christ...strengthening and caring for one another...I don`t know.
I just think that in dismissing churches or certain people because they don`t measure up to our particular standards or conform to our belief systems ... one runs the risk of limited understanding.... I have found that folks have a tendency to become confined..when only allowing input from people whom they like or totally agree with...
Makes sense, one doesn`t have to challenge ones self if the only people they allow into their sphere of influence are those who believe exactly as or are willing to learn to believe exactly as we do..no?
edited to add... Geisha, I was typing this before you posted, your post said it all better and more succinctly, but I will leave my thoughts out here any way
Good for you, rascal. Really.
I just think that in dismissing churches or certain people because they don`t measure up to our particular standards or conform to our belief systems ... one runs the risk of limited understanding....
Which church or people do you think I shouldn't have dismissed that I talked about earlier or others I've gone to that I didn't talk about? The Way Fellowship that I've gone to several times out here? Hmm? How about the Pentecostal church that had wicked witchcraft spirits governing the church - even though the pastor many times was inspired by the true God? The Trinity church (that's the name of the church) that also sometimes had great teachings and wonderful praise - until people started rolling in the isles and convulsing? How about the mega-church that refuses to talk about the things of the Spirit?
I have found that folks have a tendency to become confined..when only allowing input from people whom they like or totally agree with
I guess you're exaggerating. Who has ever found another human being that he totally agreed with? Sounds like a hermit to me.
I did not mean to start any disagreements or arguments. I will say that Geisha, is probably one of the best, articulate Bible "teachers" I've read and whose posts I have enjoyed. She knows it, and I believe, lives it.
I also very much respect Tom and Chockful. All of us see things differently and what works best for our lives right now. My sister just loves her Baptist Church, and I've gone with her to it. Its very nice. But, just not for me currently. Maybe I will go one day, who knows.
I value Geisha's input immensely and think we need to just stand back a bit and agree to disagree :)
when we are connected to the vine instead of man or the ideal of a book....it is so much more personal. We are accountable to each other before the Lord.
...
The ironic thing is....we got used to the intensity of it and it seems a catch-22 now.....churches don't do enough....are to enemic....but we don't want micro-managing or the intensity.....sometimes it seems it is a no win.
Just a wee point here: The "ideal of the book" is Christ.
The ironic thing is....we got used to the intensity of it and it seems a catch-22 now.....churches don't do enough....are to enemic....but we don't want micro-managing or the intensity.....sometimes it seems it is a no win.
What the heck happened to speaking the truth of the gospel of Christ to one another in love? Life is not a continuum along a line between "churches don't do enough....are to enemic" and "micro-managing." Life is in Christ, and he lives among us when we gather in his name and speak the Word to one another in love like he commanded us.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
36
15
18
18
Popular Days
Jun 14
21
Jun 9
17
Jun 15
16
Mar 24
13
Top Posters In This Topic
Tom 36 posts
Sunesis 15 posts
geisha779 18 posts
chockfull 18 posts
Popular Days
Jun 14 2010
21 posts
Jun 9 2010
17 posts
Jun 15 2006
16 posts
Mar 24 2005
13 posts
Popular Posts
Ham
If so, I hope it is far more encompassing.. than some little movement in California, or New York..
Tom
Wow, well here’s what I see, and what I think I’m seeing. As always, God has the big picture. I’m just following the tracks the best I can. Sunesis: “…does it seem to you, less people are getting b
geisha779
Feel better? Maybe you are a bit confused....a church may MEET in a building.....but, it is a group of Christians who meet together in fellowship around the Lord. I wear jeans to church and rarely "d
Tom
Ah, deep breath, :).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
Fabulous posts Tom and Chockful. I live my life looking for Christians - the ones in life, people you meet. For example, at my job, I have "found" the Christians. It evolved over time. We hang out, have lunch, occasionally talk about things and I end up sharing what God has taught me lately, or this or that. They think I am some kind of genius - I laugh, but they ask, how do you know so much? I tell them I pray and ask God to teach me and to show me Christ. It slowly dawned on me - what I have is basically a fellowship - its just Christians fellowshipping, at lunch, in the hallways, the guy from the mailroom who gives me the mail, etc.
I used to think, well, maybe I should find a church, but my family, friends, even neighbors - the Christians are out there. I just ask God to find them for me.
One thing about churches I have noticed, is they are so intent on "growing" their church, they have shows, music, plays, get lots of people, then, don't want to offend them so teach a watered down gospel, or, continually teach "milk." the older ones drift away because they are ready for meat and there is none.
The Lord knows - I'll open my mouth if someone's heart is prepared.
That's another thing - its talking to people whose hearts are prepared. When Christians witness to "natural man" for lack of a better word - no wonder they get annoyed and feel Christians are pushy people who, and tell them to butt out. I don't blame them. The Holy Spirit prepares peoples' hearts. I believe God can show us who is ready and would like to know. Like my homeless guy who I buy the street newspaper from and slip him money here and there - I just "knew" we were children of the same God and every morning he likes a little Word - a thought, and we go on our way. He is an old, homeless black man (who recently now has a place with a family member) named James, but he is so faithful selling his street newspaper. Christians are everywhere. I think, those of us outside the walls, make our own fellowship whereever we go, with the people we meet outside the gate (I love that analogy).
Now, I have a question for you, does it seem to you, less people are getting born again? It just doesn't seem to be as many as when we were young, or, because we aren't young any more, we wouldn't know because we're out of the loop. I think about it at times and wonder.
Edited by SunesisLink to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Church can be a great place for accountability. Most of the Christian men I know from local churches have accountability partners or groups....they get together to pray a few times a week....they fellowship and they help each other stay on track. Without that accountability......
well....we know what can happen.
and.......anyone can look at their own reflection in the water.
Out of curiosity...if you don't even go to a church.....how do you know there is a watered down gospel being preached in many churches?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
Hi Geisha :) Arrrrggggghhhhh - I just wrote a huge answer to you and it disappeared. Its getting late, I'll start over in the morning. That is so annoying.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Thanks.
:)
In many ways I feel the same..
I think we have two versions of insanity, both trying to fix the problems the other has (supposedly) caused..
honestly.. I think it is a façade..
I voted *almost* straight Democrat in the same election for the same reasons.. sure worked, didn't it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Well, you know I love hearing from you! :) So, if you get a chance I look forward to it.
I will tell you though....I know many, many, many Christians from churches....my house is like Grand Central for young Christian 20 somethings....and you would most likely be blown away by what these kids understand and moreover....what they do. I am in awe of them.
I actually found a niche post TWI...it took a long time and some inner-reflection on the "why's" of not being comfortable before I found a home. The people I know...I sometimes feel so unworthy of their friendship....they are amazing....I love the Christians I know...I respect them, admire them, and LEARN from them. So, I see a different side perhaps than those of you who don't have a church or desire one...or believe you need one.
No church is perfect and some are a better fit than others, but church is where Christian often congregate together ......it is a community of believers....it is a family.
To add: There are some really amazing Pastors and teachers as well..in churches!
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
Wow, well here’s what I see, and what I think I’m seeing. As always, God has the big picture. I’m just following the tracks the best I can.
Sunesis: “…does it seem to you, less people are getting born again? It just doesn't seem to be as many as when we were young, or, because we aren't young any more, we wouldn't know because we're out of the loop. I think about it at times and wonder.”
Good question. There’s a mega-church here. It’s growing like crazy. IMO, they’re teaching a watered down gospel (Geisha, another good question – later, OK?). My earlier remark, “their teachings are sometimes inspired. That’s a testimony to Gods’ infinite grace; I’m so thankful,” was about churches like this one. In fact, the church is named “Christ Fellowship.” Here is an email I got recently from my wife, uh, oh, can’t find the dang thing – but the gist was she said this guy had delivered a great sermon in the midst of a great service. She had to say so because we both saw this guy as just a salesman the first time we saw him “teach.” Could have been more Word, she said, but his point was good, & made well.
So, point is many outside the gate are coming into their gate, & many are being born again. All praise goes to God who, as always, is doing the best he can with what he has to work with.
Yes, Sunesis, I think we are “out of the loop,” or should I rather say, we are out of the many loops that are presently presenting themselves as THE loop. Remember, I teach 11th grade English. Many of my believing students are quite active in the faith & ready to say so given the opportunity. I have many sanctions on what I can say in class, but they don’t, & I can certainly afford them the opportunity to speak. I can say the bible says so & so. I can even say what I believe – I just can’t say what I believe is the truth. You really can’t touch a piece of American Lit. that doesn’t have allusions or foundations in the bible – really, that’s an amazing reality. Believing students are amazed that I know & believe. They would be in my “fellowship” in a heartbeat if I were allowed to hold one on campus – which, of course, I’m not.
So, yes, I think that we are outside of the many loops that God is using to take c/o his own.
But, I don’t think that leaves us out of God’s loop. He has, generally, throughout history, worked more outside the gates than within. He has no more respect for man’s gates than he has respect of persons – none.
As far as churches go, Geisha, I’ve been to quite a few over the years.
Lately, I’ve been listening to Christ Fellowship, especially if my wife recommends it. OK, here’s the list.
Christ Fellowship
Old ex-Way grad from back in the day
Another old (not SO old) ex-Way grad
Pentecostal
Even been to some Way fellowships lately
Christ Fellowship: Watered down – read above. Filled with many beautiful believers – how beautiful are the feet…, loving. Not only are they a mega-church, but they have a home fellowship contingent. They call them small groups. We went to one for quite a while – felt like God led us to this group.. It was very refreshing. I loved the way they all interacted – the Spirit was working among the group many times.
I even took one of their “foundational classes.” The class was run by a very humble and Spirit inspired individual. But when I tried to approach him on the subject of the Spirit – specifically power in evidence, he was like a chameleon. Couldn’t get a straight answer from him.
I KNEW the lady who ran the small fellowship was overflowing with Spirit, so one day I asked her about why it seemed like many of the people in the church were overflowing with spiritual power, but wouldn't admit it.. She admitted to speaking in tongues, and agreed with me that it seemed like quite a few of the people in the church did so also, and that there seemed to be an unspoken silencing on the whole subject. It was as weird to her as it was to me. Although she was more mature spiritually than what was taught in the church in many ways, she would never contradict church doctrine or teach anything not already “baptized” as OK by the church. Everything basically proceeded from that guy who wrote “Power for Abundant Living.” I guess they think that any talk of the specifics of the Spirit might scare away all the new people. All the hard corps “fundamentalist” churches term the church Laodicean.
Old ex-Way grad from back in the day: Good teaching, but added stuff to the gospel. Stuff I had to do to be made whole. I guess the gospel isn’t sufficient for that purpose. Why do people have to always add to the gospel? Sure clue that their “gospel” is watered down.
Another old (not SO old) ex-Way grad: I’ll mention this guy’s name. It is Mike Brophy. I’ve joined a phone hook-up, & downloaded one of his classes off the internet. Very refreshing. The gospel was presented as complete, the redemptive work of Christ as sufficient for every need. I called him a while ago, & we spoke. In the course of the conversation, he asked me what I working in the Word. I hesitated to answer him honestly, because I had been working a couple of things that definitely contradict Way doctrine – things about the One Spirit, & I didn’t want to start with an argument, but I figured what the heck, & told him. Turns out he and others he works with had worked through all that some years back & come to the same realization. God is up to something.
Pentecostal: Saw some beautiful believers there, & some nice prophecy, but they wanted our money and our commitment before they even got to know us. Sure clue you are engaging in a hierarchical power structure that has the One Body under wraps. That was it for me, but I kept going because my wife liked the fellowship & the praise worship. We hung out long enough to see that there were some very wicked witchcraft spirits that were governing the thing. Yet God blessed them where he could, as his manner is.
Even been to some Way fellowships lately: These guys love me from way back – I brought a lot of healing to their lives. They would love me no matter what I did. Strange, but I presented the stuff to them that I brought up to Mike Brophy, & they were receptive – said they’ve been wondering about these things for years. They said we should put this stuff together in a presentable form & show it to the Way HQ – maybe it could be in the next advanced class. Ha, good luck on that one, but it is good to hang with them from time to time. They have matured so well spiritually. Does my heart good to see it. Their fellowships don’t really have any fellowship to them until the fellowship proper is over with though.
As far as accountability, “Church can be a great place for accountability. Most of the Christian men I know from local churches have accountability partners or groups....they get together to pray a few times a week....they fellowship and they help each other stay on track. Without that accountability......
well....we know what can happen.”
The word “accountability” scares me. I don’t know about you, but I was still with the way when they were micromanaging everyone’s’ life – all in the name of accountability, so we all know what can happen with that too. I’m thankful to have a few believers who know me & will speak the Word to me where I need it – I suppose that’s what you’re talking about really. I hope so.
Anyway, Geisha, that brings us to present day. I am through looking for a church. I am through looking for anything on my own. I am looking to the God of all increase. He is up to something these days, & I am following the tracks. It is between my heart and his. And due to his big heart, my heart is growing bigger. He’ll send as many as I tell him my heart is ready to receive in love. They’re changing me, & I’m changing them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Churches can be a place for accountability. They can also be a place for politics, a profession for those so inclined, and a source for divisions. Accountability is not by nature greater in a church environment - there are as many accounts of "what can happen" within as there are without. Anyone looking at their own reflection in the water seeking the Christ within will not be disappointed. A paid pastor doing his job presenting a message doesn't necessarily improve the reflection.
I personally have been to many churches. They do a lot of good, but sometimes the lack of depth reminds me of why I left a denomination in the first place and sought TWI.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Sunesis, honestly I don't know. Lately I seem to look at that as God's responsibility, and I just try to move with Him. But come to think of it, many of the youth and youth groups in churches are doing well, great places for young people.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Galen
It is difficult to find a fellowship that 'fits'.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
Tom and Chockfull, thank you for your sharings. I don't spend much time around young people, but my neice goes to a wonderful Christian College in Colorado and loves it. My nephew is taking 7 months before his freshman year of college to go with a group doing ministry in Thailand, then Turkey. I know kids love their youth ministries, and Tom, that must be awesome with the young believers in your class. That is just wonderful to hear. Sounds like you've done a lot of different church exploring too.
Ham - yeah, it is insanity doing the same things expecting a different result :) Oh well, I've decided to pull back from that area a bit. It is what it is and will be what it will be.
Geisha, I have read quite a few different Christian sites and forums over the years on the 'net. The one I look at now is one of the biggest on the net. You still see the drama, the questions, is our Pastor leading us to hell??? (just kidding - but close) Should we leave our church? Is our church becoming emergent? It almost seems that people are being called out of their churches many times. I see the same drama and politics I saw in TWI.
I have a dear friend who is a Methodist Pastor, has been for a couple of decades and recently received her Ph.d from Oxford. We were talking and she said its a terrible problem as church attendance has been way down now for years. Not just her church only, but in general. I know the bigger, or mega churches use music, bands, plays, productions, etc. to get people there. It just seems that so many churches want to grow their church, but not "offend" the new people. So the teachings are kept simple. I asked two of my friends, what does your church do for people who want to learn more. That's where small bible study groups either at the church or at someone's home comes in.
So, I don't know, maybe I overstated. My boss, who has loved his church for 13 years recently told me he is thinking of leaving with his family. He feels it is getting off track. Maybe its just that people come and go from churches as their lives and needs change.
Edited by SunesisLink to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Amen, bro. I'm with you 100% on that. Great sharing too.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I guess it all depends on who you ask and what you are listening for...and I mean no disrespect, but maybe you should check out some place like Village church in Denton Texas....which grew so quickly they had to open separate campuses. Great Podcasts btw... :) and people from all over the world have come together to pray for a beloved Pastor who has a brain tumor. People have really united ....I am touched to be a part of it and to genuinely love this Pastor I have never met.
People love to complain about church because there is no such thing as a perfect church...which makes sense...since a church is made up of people...and people are not perfect.
I am just not sure why we would not be running to be with each other in family and fellowship? To be with those who love the Lord...in prayer and worship together? Church is where we congregate and we meet each other....for that purpose. Especially if we know so much...we should be out there sharing our gifts...because our gifts are not for ourselves but for the edification of the body.
People in China risk death and imprisonment to hold church....Many places have laws against holding church, there are prisons are filled with people who have known how important is is to gather together anyway....I can't ever imagine taking it for granted.
Just my thoughts.
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I don't even know what this means. Again, I mean no disrespect but, it is really not about you....it is about God. As many as your heart can receive for what? To love? To praise with...to worship with...to serve with....what do you mean?
If you are not even looking for a place....it doesn't sound like you are willing to receive anybody.
We probably have very different ideas of how God works and what our part in all this means.....fair enough I suppose...but, we should not forsake gathering together. Which to me implies that we can forsake it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Sure. And Joel Olsteen's church has grown similarly. It sounds like your motivations 'to be a part of it' are more that you want to be caught up in something big as opposed to the personal touch of Christian relationships with those you actually know and interact with.
I have no complaints about church. I do have complaints about people acting in a condescending fashion towards others. You know, kind of like making comments about 'anyone can look at their reflection in the water'. Why don't you look at your own reflection in the water and take the beam out of your eye that you see in it?
Where exactly did you get the idea that 'we' are not doing this? It's not necessary to dress up and go to a building to accomplish this. Jesus didn't do that.
People in China risk death and imprisonment for having more than one child. Or at least they used to. Now China is growing to be mostly capitalist and those controls aren't there any longer. Watchman Nee, one of the greatest Christian examples in all of China, who literally was imprisoned from 1952 until he died in 1972 for his faith, traveled all over the Chinese countryside personally interacting with other Christians, fellowshipping, discussing the Bible, teaching some. Not 'holding church'.
I just love how people say 'I mean no disrespect', then the next thing that comes out of their mouth is disrespect. Do hypocrisy much? There is a physical, emotional, and mental limit to how many people you can interact with in a given day, week, month. Yes, love, praise with, worship with, serve with, all of the above.
Because Jesus himself spent his life and ministry wandering around 'looking for a place'. It doesn't sound like you read the Bible much with understanding. It sounds more like you are enamored with the hype surrounding religion. I would suggest less ego and more reading. You are not better than your Christian brothers and sisters because you like to go to church. I'd be willing to bet that Tom does more genuine interaction, receiving, giving with 30 students on a daily basis than you do on any day of the week. Including your dress up and act holy day.
You certainly seem to have a very different idea about how God works than I do. He is not a respecter of persons, groups of people, or buildings. He doesn't like it when people denigrate their brothers and sisters through ego. Maybe you really ought to look at the exact teaching of what is meant by the assembling together of the saints. How about when 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, I will be there? Why does it say 2 or 3, not 200 or 300? If you want to have your little narrowminded interpretation of that scripture to mean that the Bible teaches you're supposed to go to church, then that's your problem. But when you bring that attitude into my church then it also becomes my problem. Which is why I'm telling you straight that attitude is very poor and not an example of Christian teachings and discipline.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
"To love? To praise with...to worship with...to serve with"
Exactly - see, you know what it means, "receive in love." God's love.
I just received this email shortly before I received the email about your post. In part, it read, "I look forward to dialoguing more regarding reality in Christ as our days draw closer to our Lord’s return.
In Christ with you forever (no strings attached)."
He knows what it means also. God is bringing his people together. I know you said you meant no disrespect, but where does the remark, "it is really not about you....it is about God" come from? I don't think I ever indicated that it was about me.
I just don't equate a place with people. I don't need to look for a place. God does the placing, & he has placed me in the Body where it pleases him. I've just come to believe that. If I didn't, I'd probably be still looking for a place, instead of having my eyes open to all the beautiful believers that the God of ALL increase has placed by my place. He's much better at placing than I am.
"We probably have very different ideas of how God works and what our part in all this means"
Maybe so.
".....fair enough I suppose...but, we should not forsake gathering together"
I do get together with believers, but I don't want to place myself - again, God does the placing. I think Jesus Christ is doing something here, & I don't want to tell Christ how to build his church - or tell him that I have some PLACE else to go. I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense, Geisha. It's the best I can do at the moment.
Thanks for your concern.
Tom
Edited by TomLink to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Feel better?
Maybe you are a bit confused....a church may MEET in a building.....but, it is a group of Christians who meet together in fellowship around the Lord. I wear jeans to church and rarely "dress up" for anything. What an assumption about people. You don't need church?
I am not the one sitting from a lofty perch raining blanket judgment down on the nameless, faceless of God's people by declaring them political and shallow.....especially without being there addressing the problems I say I see. Without using the gifts I claim to have to make a difference. Could have sworn I said I had a church and many, many, many Christians in my life....up close and personal too...as most of them are in my home at one time or another. So, how you get I don't interact is anyone's guess.
I love it when someone pulls out the old beam in the eye when they hear something they don't like....but, if I hadn't been in TWI and had the same issues with church that are being discussed here...it might possibly be relevant....but I have HAD to pull that beam out of my eye....and now I see church differently.
You can tell it to the Lord Chockful...tell Him how awful His church is....tell Him His people are not worthy of your presence....tell Him you don't need it and your attitude is justified because He didn't go to church...He did go to the Temple though....I simply made an observation.....tell Him how narrow minded I am because I pointed out meeting together, accountability, and having a fellowship of believers is important to our Christian walk...... How we are to esteem each other....and a church is where you find Christians meeting.
We have pastors because people need pastoring....you and I included.....so we don't get taken so far afield....not all pastors are good pastors, but the ones I know are good pastors. They are out there....in churches ......because that is how it is set up. We have teachers because people need sound doctrine...... again, teachers teach in churches...in ministry. We go to a church to gather together and to be a part of a particular body of Christians for the purpose of learning together, helping one another, accountability, communion, fellowship and to have others who also love God to share our burdens with......oh the horror of it all. Bad Geisha for pointing this out. For wanting this for you....tell the Lord you don't like the way it is set up. Maybe you can start something else...like a small bible study that meets in the home and is set up like a tree...with twigs, branches, and a root.
As far as China is concerned or a place like Entreia I am sure those still in prison for having a church, being a pastor, or simply being caught with a bible....will be glad to hear this is all over now.....except those who have been executed that is. You don't know what you are talking about....but, if you became involved in serving the persecuted CHURCH, as we call them....you might. Groups like VOM train people to go the CHURCHES to speak to CHRISTIANS about the plight of the persecuted CHURCH. CHURCHES have them come speak to their CONGREGATIONS so that the CHURCH here better might understand better what is happening to our BRETHREN in other parts of the world. So we might better serve them.
Enamored of religion? No...but I do like church because it is made up of Christians and I am enamored of them. We are suppose to be. Not standing from the outside pointing fingers....there are other people who have that job.....it shouldn't come from those who say they belong to the same body.
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I understand what you are saying geisha, We have attended a marvelous little church as the kids have grown up. The people at first glance were certainly not whom I would typically consider hanging out with....and no doubt vice versa...lol but this minister has the tremendous ability to see the christ in an individual ... finding and valuing long suits and ones unique insights and perspectives.
I have learned so much above and beyond doctrinal issues from so many many people in this church and surrounding community, but it took me putting aside my own personal aquired arrogance and bias as to what and who were important.
Our beloved minister and now dear friend will retire this month...who knows if the lessons she has imparted will survive in this particular group...if we can continue to see one another as individual works in progress, one together in Christ...strengthening and caring for one another...I don`t know.
I just think that in dismissing churches or certain people because they don`t measure up to our particular standards or conform to our belief systems ... one runs the risk of limited understanding.... I have found that folks have a tendency to become confined..when only allowing input from people whom they like or totally agree with...
Makes sense, one doesn`t have to challenge ones self if the only people they allow into their sphere of influence are those who believe exactly as or are willing to learn to believe exactly as we do..no?
edited to add... Geisha, I was typing this before you posted, your post said it all better and more succinctly, but I will leave my thoughts out here any way
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
That is it exactly Rascal....sometimes it is good to be committed to something....and work out the differences in love and put in the effort. That is one way we grow in grace. We don't have to all be cookie cutter alike in church, but when we are connected to the vine instead of man or the ideal of a book....it is so much more personal. We are accountable to each other before the Lord.
TWI took something and perverted it....what fellowship should really be....so I do understand why people would shy away. VP came from the church and he took what we are as a family of Christians...used all the right words....but twisted the meaning as a way of control and abuse. Things like accountability took on an insane meaning...or micro managing as Tom points out....but, as Christians we are accountable.
VP just ruined what should be something we desire and made it something we want to avoid....he did it with most all of it. The ironic thing is....we got used to the intensity of it and it seems a catch-22 now.....churches don't do enough....are to enemic....but we don't want micro-managing or the intensity.....sometimes it seems it is a no win.
People will never find a perfect church. There are none. That doesn't mean we, as Christians, don't need a fellowship or church.
http://www.9marks.or...are-the-9marks/
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
Why is it that others are making judgments, but you are just making observations? Oh, nevermind, please don't answer that - it's rhetorical. You use that word accountability often. I don't read that in the revelation to the church - or any revelation anywhere. I see submitting ourselves to one another in the fear of God and speaking the truth in love. If that's what you mean, fine. It is the power of the gospel concerning Christ spoken and believed that makes us whole. If that's what you mean, fine. Any accountability defined outside that is man's set up, not the Lord's. It's vanity. If submitting to one another in the fear of God and speaking the truth to one another is what we are talking about here, I'd prefer saying so. It gives the glory to God and his son.
Teachers teach outside of churches also, and pastors pastor outside of churches.
That's a non-sequitor, geisha. Just because it IS set up that way, doesn't mean the LORD set it up that way.
The Way Tree: another man-made structure. It was just the systematizing of error in the name of accountability. They also pawned it off as the Lord having set it up that way.
We, plural - as THE church - are complete in him.
No strings needed.
Tom
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Maybe that is why we set time aside every week to gather together and praise, worship, listen and learn...possibly?
You know what Chockfull this really really hurt me...because you don't know me or what I do.....and you made this assumption by my defense of CHURCH!! Normally, my personal life is none of your business...but here, let me tell you what I have been doing for the last month or so....
Two times a week I go to someone's house who has liver cancer. My husband takes him to his chemo appointment and I stay at his house to clean. The first time he let me into the house I nearly threw up from the smell. It was wretched and filthy is not descript enough.
What I do.... is clean up after his dog who doesn't get walked when I am not there because he is too weak to take him out. The dog uses the floor as a place to potty. I clean up mountains of dog poop and urine first thing...and that is so I can get to the piles of dishes and cans and bottles laying in the kitchen. Once I get the junk cleared away...I have the pleasure of cleaning up the food spills and getting rid of the rancid food laying around. Then I get down on my hands and knees and bleach his kitchen floor....the counters....clean the fridge....remove the trash and clean the bile from the walls. Once the kitchen is immaculate I move to the bathroom....
He had colon cancer first and has little control over his functions so I get to clean a toilet covered in runny, smelly human feces....then the walls, then the shower and then the floor..basically I have been wading in poop for the last month.
I change a disgusting bed where the dog sleeps with him....scrub his floors and walls, paint, organize loads of mail unopened for two years....do all his laundry ...I take it home and buy the best detergent and in my "spare" time do his poop covered clothes. I use cheaper detergent on my clothes...I can't afford both.
THEN, I make him meals so that he can eat....after buying his groceries...and paying for them. I have bought new curtains for his home....replaced bedding....replaced a good deal of pee soaked furniture and moved an actual truck load of trash from his house. I take his trash and recycling every week to my house...at my expense....three dollars a bag...and until this week when I finally got it under control....10 bags a week.
This is also the first week the house no longer smells...trust me, that is a big deal. I have made his disgusting house into a home....so that he has a place to heal. He has no one else...I am it.
This is a guy who is NOT a Christian....he is someone who got angry with me years ago over real estate and stopped speaking to me....and was very cruel to me. So he doesn't feel bad about the mess I clean up...I tell him I love doing it...I love a challenge....and that it is my pleasure. You know what...it is.
I have two people living in my house...rent free...on me...because they got into finacial trouble and we want to help them get back on their feet.....they are two Christian kids who got in over their heads....and we know what it is like to need a hand. I cook and clean for them.
Lucky me...can you guess which gifts the Lord blessed me with?
I go to prisons and I visit with prisoners....I speak to people about the persecuted church.....and I am a wife and mom who works two jobs. I have two jobs yet no money to spend on myself...I buy my clothes at the salvation army or walmart.....I get my hair cut twice a year.....anything good I have was a gift or from a time when I actually gave a care about that stuff. I don't anymore...and somehow I manage to get by.
Real enough for you? Oh wait did I mention my husband is disabled and can only work part-time? The money making falls to me? Then there is our 10 acres and 100 year old house to see to....I have to hire someone to mow....I have huge gardens and outbuilding which are falling down and I get to do most of it myself...a leaky roof that isn't getting fixed and a load of worries I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
But, as long as you know all about me and can make such judgments.....
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
Good for you, rascal. Really.
Which church or people do you think I shouldn't have dismissed that I talked about earlier or others I've gone to that I didn't talk about? The Way Fellowship that I've gone to several times out here? Hmm? How about the Pentecostal church that had wicked witchcraft spirits governing the church - even though the pastor many times was inspired by the true God? The Trinity church (that's the name of the church) that also sometimes had great teachings and wonderful praise - until people started rolling in the isles and convulsing? How about the mega-church that refuses to talk about the things of the Spirit?
I guess you're exaggerating. Who has ever found another human being that he totally agreed with? Sounds like a hermit to me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
I did not mean to start any disagreements or arguments. I will say that Geisha, is probably one of the best, articulate Bible "teachers" I've read and whose posts I have enjoyed. She knows it, and I believe, lives it.
I also very much respect Tom and Chockful. All of us see things differently and what works best for our lives right now. My sister just loves her Baptist Church, and I've gone with her to it. Its very nice. But, just not for me currently. Maybe I will go one day, who knows.
I value Geisha's input immensely and think we need to just stand back a bit and agree to disagree :)
Edited by SunesisLink to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
Just a wee point here: The "ideal of the book" is Christ.
What the heck happened to speaking the truth of the gospel of Christ to one another in love? Life is not a continuum along a line between "churches don't do enough....are to enemic" and "micro-managing." Life is in Christ, and he lives among us when we gather in his name and speak the Word to one another in love like he commanded us.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.