Wow Tom, thank you for sharing that. I think you are right, drugs were being pushed out by the Holy Spirit. I know several people from my high school who did them and after a few fellowships stopped doing them.
The part about Heefner, as you walked in, thanking God for deliverance from the drug heroin - that's what I saw, things that maybe applied to one person, walking with God, they knew, they followed the guidance of the Holy Spirt, and people got delivered. And you'd watch these guys, called by God to lead us, and the things they did and said that were from God. There was a sense that the Holy Spirit was with them and us. They were our older experienced teachers.
They taught, and their actions backed it up, people were delivered - and they did it so naturally - true ministry of evangelization in action. People saw power in their friends' lives and deliverance, they wanted the Word too.
" From which all sorts of things branched off: Calvary Chapel in SoCal (out of which later came Vineyard), the birth of "Contemporary Christian Music", etc. "
Interesting....Have any of you ever seen the video promoted by Calvary Chapel on how they started? When I first saw it, it was like I was watching the video on how The Way started (sorry, I cant recall the name of it). Don't get me wrong, I'm not clumping CCs with The Way, but just thought it was such a coincidence how they both started with the same goal, bring in the "unlovables" that no other church accepted. It is uncanny the resemblance on both videos.
It was after the back to back classes stopped that drugs and sex came into the LI fellowship.
Really - I remember the back to back classes, I remember the drugs coming back in, & I remember the sex coming into the fellowship. And it was after the back to back classes and as the rift between HQ & Heefner & Perez started to happen.
That was a good question & a damn good answer.
Yeah, it was a good answer :)
Great to hear that happened ... I was just blurring in some of the stories about the smokin' at ROA and all. Deliverance from H sounds genuine to me. Thanks for telling about it.
It was Way year 86-87, I was Family Corps and Jim was in charge of grounds, my wife worked with him and I think Judy was in charge of housekeeping. Jim used to hang out with us in the second floor lobby at night after meetings, some of the secret smoking corps would get a cigarette from him, Camel filters, if memory serves.
He was very cool and non-religous/legalistic, still wondering how he wound up back there.
Jim, if your still reading, your manner was always graceful and a blessing. I've tried to emulate that "vibe", I think I've succeeded, I sincerely hope you are well!
Was Jim an older man? Was there a Tony at that time as well? I have a cool story to tell, but I really cant recall the gentleman's name.
I was in between First year In Residence and Interim year. It was the summer break and i was sent to RC to help out. I was assigned to work Grounds and worked hard that summer. Picking strawberries and killing the chickens and working the corn fields.
The one day we were working the corn fields, we had to go row by row and just make sure that the newly born corn stalks would not be covered by dirt, and so we had to go stalk by stalk clearing the dirt off each corn stalk down the long corn rows. As I was clearing the dirt, I saw something shiny peering out from just right under the ground. I got curious and started digging, and found, to my surpirse a graduate dove ring. you know the kind they used to sell at TWI with the red ruby and the dove...etc. I immediately picked it, cleaned it on my jeans and gave it a good look. It had an engraving inside. I cant recall what it said inside but I believe it had a name or maybe just initials inside. I told a few of my fellow workers around me about the ring and since our coordinator was not around at the time, I just pocketed the ring and went back to work with intentions to take it Lost and Found or somebody in Admin. (For some reason, I want to call our coordinator, Tony...maybe that was his name). So when our coordinator came back to check back on us and gather us up for lunch, several of the co-workers told him about the ring. Immediately the coordinator was very interested and said "You found a ring? Where?" So I explained to him and took out the ring. He practically snatched it off my hand and looked inside for the inscription. He then said, "Oh my God! this is MY ring!!! I lost it about 10...." and hesitated as he was thinking about how long he had lost his ring. I thought he was goint to say something like "10 days ago or even 10 weeks ago or so" was I surprised when he finished his sentence with "10 YEARS ago!!!!!" He proceeded to tell us the story that 10 years ago he had been in RC working on the grounds (why was he working on the grounds with a ring on, is beyond me), but he lost his ring on those same grounds. He never found it then, until now. You could tell it was an older ring because it had the dove INSIDE the ruby instead of ON TOP as they were selling them that way in the later years. Anyway...he was delighted as you can imagine. I just thought this was an amazing God story and it was cool to see somebody rejoice as they got back something they had lost so long agon. I love to tell this story.
Im sorry for going on blabbing....probably not the right forum to post this on, but just thought about this story as you were mentioning RC. It was a wild summer, will never forget it.
MC
PS...i just realized that I posted this story a while back (2 years ago), in case it sounded familiar...geez...am I getting THAT old?????
i talked to jimmy doop last night and told him about this thread. he's having trouble logging into greasespot. i sent him a link and i hope it works.
i really like him. his stories about the early days (similar to what tom said about the money and power changing hands) makes me think the god stuff was really happening. i feel like veepee stole it.....
This is interesting thread. I didn't get into twi until the late 70's or maybe it was early 80's, but I had already met God by then. The church where I was going at the time was wonderful. Most of the people there were either teens or 20 something year olds-long hair and blue jeans everywhere. We were so young and innocent then and we loved God with everything we had. We would regularly go to the French Quarters to witness, sing praises to God with abandonment as we drove around in the old delivery van (and I can't sing a lick!) and it seems that our life style had changed over night from drugs to Jesus people. Once I was part of twi everything changed, it went from loving with your heart to loving with your head. It was so hard to live up to expectations.
I'm so sorry that Jim Doop has died, I was thinking of e-mailing him about his book :( I guess I can't now.
Yeah gc, I know what you mean, I tried emailing him the week before he past away, I too would like to read his book.
One other thing, I was talking to Waysider in chat the other day, and he told me about Bill McNulty in Cleveland, OH. It seems he was much like Doop, Heefner, Perez, Fugit, etc in the early days, he had built a huge following in Cleveland, until one day VPee swooped in replaced him and others who were leading, and took his work away from him, took all the ABS to Hq's and ruined Bill and his wife's reputation the same way they did to the Heefner's and Doop's. Here's a post by DontWorryBeHappy about it:
hey there waysider and lindaZ!..........yeah........mcnulty....cleveland...........early 70's...........IIRC, bill was close with dave anderson who was from up in your neck of the woods.......the former "extension and outreach coordinator" of twi......the man behind the filming/taping of "the class", who resigned in dissention and disgust in 1973, betrayed and bamboozled by vic...........bill had a nice thing goin' up there in northern ohio...........kaderly's in ashtabula...........lots of nice folks!!
in my first year in-rez, in the early fall of '73, vic put together a quick little way productions group for a big meeting vic was doing in cleveland with and for earl burton, the lc of ohio..........they "billed it" it as a kinda "way presents" type of rally.........installing the new, "official", vic endorsed "way tree structure" for the home limb of twi hq.........the "northern ohio branch" which mcnulty's thing had been called, was now gonna be the new, "right on" way tree set-up..........dave daniel*s was to be a branc leader, in cleveland, and jim dufal*a was to be the branch leader in lorrain, and there may have been another person doing another branch or twig-area up there somewhere, in the place of what mcnulty's set-up was.........no mention was ever made of bill and the works he had done for twi up there.........neither vic nor burton ever told us "younger corps" what the story was.........but, having known what happened at "the way presents" in california in early '72, where howard and vic walked right down the middle of the aisle of the packed auditorium, up to the podium, and "announced" the "departure" of jimmy doop from the way west, and installing del duncan as the first lc of the way of ca............and, having been present at the open sunday night session of the ac in rye, ny in march,1972, when vic and howard did basically the same thing to steve heefner and the way east, installing bob moynihan as the first lc of the way of ny..........i kinda put 2 and 2 together as to what was going on "behind the scenes"........
that trip was memorable because we all flew to cleveland in some cramped, crappy little twin engine plane with vic and dotsie.........the way productions group was ted ferrel, claudettee, dean ellenwoo*d, richie dibartol*o, ken mca*w, and myself......along with vic, dotsie and howard..........and, on our approach to the cleveland airport, our little, crappy plane hit a thunderstorm and the turbulence made richie so sick that he vomitted his guts out into his bible cover, and all over his new suit!........in full view of all of us......for it seemed like forever!!............we tried our best not to laugh, but i could'nt help myself........the entire scene was so absurd!!..........anyway........we did a "meet'n'greet" with the limb staff and the "new way tree leaders" at some nice restaurant, and then went on to do the meeting thing...........the next morning, minus ted, the rest of us flew to sheboygan, wi, to meet up with don and wanda wierwille, and attend the homecoming football game at lakeland mission house college and seminary, of which vic was an alumnus..........vic had arranged for our little way prod group to play at the alumni association's homecoming dance for the students...........so, we put together 2 hour long sets of cover tunes and played the homecoming dance at vic's alma mater in the fall of 1973!.........that was the first time i ever met don, who was an elementary school principal somewhere up there in wisconsin...........what a strange trip that was!............
no one was ever told, at that meeting in cleveland, or in any other public meeting, about "whatever happened to" the mcnulty's, and all the work they had done for twi in cleveland, and northern ohio....why they left, or even that they left...........it was all done "behind the scenes", orchestrated by and controlled by vic and howard, with the usual not-so-subtle slander, innuendo, false accusations, and, of course, the "requisite rumours" of devil spirit activity and possession, another vic-designed act of "betrayal" as jimmy doop described what was done to him and judi in ca, to sunesis,........... and as i had witnessed the same done to steve and sandi in the way east, and as i experienced myself in the winter of 1986-87!............the goal was always the same............get the money directly to the mog, and centralize control and command to new knoxville!.........and, by all means necessary, cover it all up, spin it vic's way and cover his big, fat, lying, perverted arse!!...........for this was, after all, "the wonderful, matchless, word and will of god"!!..........once again, the "ministry of the teacher" rising up AGAINST the ministry of reconciliation, the ministry of jesus christ himself,.......choking the life out of the "good seed" revivals by sowing "the tares" of "the teacher" among them, stifling genuine "spiritual fruit", and palming off the rotten fruit of that rotten way tree, as "the real deal".................to twi, and all its rotten offshoots, and all those splinters from its rotted way tree.............ENOUGH ALREADY!!!...............................peace.
It really sux we had such a band of false prophet wolves at the helm of twi destroying the work of God as it was outpouring in the early 70's. What a loss to all of us, these men and women who were walking with God, these God placed examples for us, were wiped away and replaced by man made cheap imitations groomed and orchestrated by an anti-christ self worshipper.
After reading some of the stories of what went on, I do sometime feel the fool.
gc
In many respects we all play the fool, gc. Year by year, I'm more impressed with how messed up man is and how wonderful God is. I think we're supposed to be learning that.
Even the greats were foolish at times.
Take this word about Moses, Aaron, and Samuel, for example:
Psalms 99:5 Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy.
6 ¶Moses and Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them that call upon his name; they called upon the LORD, and he answered them.
7 He spake unto them in the cloudy pillar: they kept his testimonies, and the ordinance that he gave them.
8 Thou answeredst them, O LORD our God: thou wast a God that forgavest them, though thou tookest vengeance of their inventions.
"Their inventions," yet God forgave them and answered them, so we exalt the Lord our God.
Even Solomon, the wisest man, didn't he screw around with over 1,000 wives or some ridiculous number, and so get corrupted? And didn't that lead to the downward spiral of David's kingdom?
One day, when I was young and evil, I fell on my face before the Lord and asked him to save me. And he did. And I became like a child, surrounded and filled by his love in my innocence. He loved me, saved me, and protected me despite my foolishness without requiring a damn thing of me. That relationship was just fine, fine, fine, by me.
Jesus said unless you become like a little child, there's no way you can enter into the kingdom of God.
Still true. Anything else is just foolish pretension.
Are we too "wise" to be children again. Pshaw! Be children again. It's the only way.
Jesus said unless you become like a little child, there's no way you can enter into the kingdom of God.
Still true. Anything else is just foolish pretension.
Are we too "wise" to be children again. Pshaw! Be children again. It's the only way.
Then children we shall be!...I think too many folks in this country get swept away with our minute rice mind culture and the instant gratification that the American consumer craves daily...perhaps your financial portfolio and the condition of your 401k is not the most important thing in life afterall...because in the final analysis the only thing you really have is your personal integrity and your faith...
I talked with Jim Doop for 2 hours...a few months before his death...it was one of the greatest conversations I have ever had. He told me the whole story of the "waywest" and the arrival of VP cornfield...he told me a lot of things...
As far as his book goes, he mentioned it in passing to me...but only vaguely. I believe that a family member of his posted here when he passed away...to let us know...perhaps that would be the person to ask about the book?
One day, when I was young and evil, I fell on my face before the Lord and asked him to save me. And he did. And I became like a child, surrounded and filled by his love in my innocence. He loved me, saved me, and protected me despite my foolishness without requiring a damn thing of me. That relationship was just fine, fine, fine, by me.
Cool translation of Psalm 119:41 in the Message version of the bible:
Let your love, God, shape my life with salvation, exactly as you promised.
I was in The Way East - under Jim's cohort, Steve Heefner, so I don't know all the details but I know some. Here's my story.
Jim & Steve and others were in some jesus freak movement on the west coast. Vpw read about them in Christianity Today magazine and went to visit. He invited them to come to way hq for camps, classes, free love - whatever. They accepted and took vpw's teachings and classes back to Calif and started getting lots of people involved.
Somehow, a sister of a buddy of mine got involved through them and came back to Rye, NY where she started telling her friends about it. Among them were Chris Geer, and others who've been mentioned here. As things started to heat up, there were a few pockets of way-dom in the US. The one led by Doop in CA, John Lynn was leading one in Indiana, there was one in Carolina (started I think by John Sommerville - vpw's son-in-law) Bob Moynihan was involved in that one but don't know what role he had in leadership. And of course some old fellowships around hq in Ohio.
At some point Steve Heefner came to NY to lead the Way East (don't know if he was asked or if he volunteered).
I think all these organizations were separate legal corporations from the way hq. I'm sure the way east and way west were. The people were obviously working toward the same end, but I don't know the legal relationship with Ohio, though there must have been some, because vpw was obviously the top dog.
At some point he thought these guys were getting too uppity and he came out to Calif and fired Jim Doop in a big public meeting. Don't know the details - I just heard it through Heefner. His take on it was vpw didn't like that they were using the money locally, and in some personally beneficial ways (like buying new cadilacs) I guess vpw wanted to be the only one doing that.
Shortly after that vpw came to NY to teach a live advanced class - it was in spring of 1972. At that point, he fired Heefner (also in a public meeting) and brought Bob Monynihan up from carolina to run NY. Geer was the underling to Heefner, then vpw through the transition and then to Moynihan till he (Geer) was moved to Massachusets.
Heefner left town after that and I never did hear much about him. Doop left the way as well for a while, then came back (to much fan fare) and ended up in the 5th way corps - same as I was. Hi Jim if you're reading this.
Hope that sheds a little light on the subject.
I wonder about the relationship between the Way East & West & HQ.
It was definitely before the way was incorporated. In those days - in my mind, at least - VP wasn't the big dog back then. Jesus was.
I remember the Way Corps light bearers came to NY (in '72 or '73?) to "set us straight" because we werent following the way tree properly. One of them went witnessing with my fellowship & took me aside & asked me if I was loyal to Dr. W. That question had no place in my mind. I told him that God had placed me in a position to feed all these people that were showing up for fellowship & that I was like an animal that eats light & feeds light to these people & that was all I cared about. If VP gave me light to feed them - fine; if Heefner gave me light to feed them - fine. It was the light that mattered. I told him that I hadn't confessed VP as Lord, but Jesus.
Personally, I believe Jesus had set up what I refered to as bands of ministering - the joints and bands refered to in Ephesians by which the whole body has nourishment ministered to it from the head, Jesus. It was an organic thing - a beauty to behold. I quickly had over 30 people in my fellowship & it was like I always knew where everyone was & how they were doing. I also knew whom I should go to for what - depending on my need.
THe Way Corps light bearers came in & just chopped all that up - replaced it with the lines of authority of the way tree.
That was in Long Island after Heefner left in Rye & Perez left in Long Island.
My understanding was that God told Heefner that if he went to NY to move the Word, there would be a great following of the Lord Jesus Christ that would rise up there.
Perez came to NY - Long Island - from California - for the same reason - God told him to go to NY & that the Word would move there if he did.
All that very effective God telling people to go places to move the Word was, of course, replaced by the WOW program. As I remember it, VP said that he instituted the WOW program because people weren't rising up to go where God was telling them to go. It was to help them get over their fear, & it was just supposed to be for 2 or 3 years until people matured in their believing to follow God's lead on their own. How the fambobula are people supposed to rise up to follow God's direct direction when VP just instituted that all such guidance was to flow down from HQ? Duh!! Obviously THAT never happened.
My memory of the centralization of the ABS is similar. VP complained that immature believers were abusing the ABS - & poor little VP had no way of knowing where the ABS was going. That summer, Perez & his assistant, Eddie Goebel, a couple of sharp fellas, put together a system whereby VP could track the ABS. At summer school - I guess in '73 - they presented the plan to VP. I remember them coming back after meeting with VP - they were bummed. VP had made up his mind that all the money was going to go directly to HQ. I don't know about him saying that it was OTHERS who moved him to do that against his wishes - I find THAT very hard to believe. He might have said that, but phffft - in those days VP was all about becoming the top dog. That was the direct effect of the WOW program, the "takeover" in Kansas, California, & NY, the centralization of the ABS, the incorporation of the way, the insitition of the way tree. All those moves replaced Jesus with VP, & changed the character of the Way West & East into something that looked similar, but was, in nature and character, very different. I do remember Perez & Goebel said that VP had said that the centralization of the ABS was only going to be for a brief period until people rose up to be maturely responsible enough to hadn't the money themselves. Again, like the WOW program, THAT never happened. How the heck were all these people doing such a great job with the souls of people when they couldn't handle the unrighteous mammon? Isn't that supposed to be impossible according to the bible? VP left them in charge of souls, but took the money. Just not right, biblically!
Again, I wonder about the legal relationship of the Ways East & West to HQ. It seemed to me that Doop, Heefner, & Perez just sort of handed the thing over to VP when we all should have told him just to kiss off, but maybe there was something other than VP being THE MAN working, something legal.
Still, wouldn't it have been royal if everyone said, "Fine, VP, you keep it," and all left & kept doing what we were doing anyway?
Why didn't we?
BTW, I wish I knew who all you 5th Corps people were. I was in that 1st year in the 1st Special Corps.
Tom
Gosh.....dmiller...thanks for bringing this thread back to our attention.
Some great testimonies from folks who were there in the early years. A reminder of the heart that people had...the way that it evolved...seeing how Veepee stepped in and grabbed the power and glory for himself.
I hope that some of the "innies" venture in here and read this stuff...this was how it started. Doop and Heefner were SO instrumental in the early years...great hearts, humble men, men of faith who worked hard for the Lord...and then came the great ego...VP farking Wierwille.
For anyone who really wants to know about twi...these years tell the story of how the cornfield preacher stepped in and proclaimed "I am the great one!"...grabbing the money and trashing the honest work that had begun.
If you do a search on the net re: Jesus Movement or Jesus Freaks, you can find the history of a true revival among us young kids that was a true movement of God in the mid'60s through early '70s.
As time goes on, I believe it is us who have loved God since those days and our kids and grandkids who may be the last generation before the Lord returns.
The Jesus movement was a true revival, which has not been seen since in the U.S. Wise, Heefner, Dopp, Lonnie Frisbee, and a few others, were the ones God worked with to bring this about. It all started with a vision and revelation to Lonnie Frisbee, who won literally thousands to the Lord in California. He was 18, 19? I consider Jim Dopp to be not only a spiritual man, but a founder, and historical figure of this movement, along with Frisbee, Heefner and a handful of others. Jim Dopp is living history.
My take, from what I know is that these men, inspired of God, started a true revival.
VP reads about it and went to California for the sole reason of finding these men. He did not go for loving reasons. He plays the class for them, Frisbee and others leave after a few sessions and decide to keep doing what they were doing, the result is the Vineyard here and in Canada.
Dopp and Heefner liked the class, go to H.Q. and one does the Way West, the other the Way East. I was there - a "groovy Christian of Rye" in high school in the Way East in NY. I have never seen another revival like this in my lifetime. It truly was amazing.
VP promises them there will be little intereference in their ministries.
Then, VP sits back and waits.
He waits for these men to grow THEIR ministries.
Once it gets big enough, he fires them - publically. He humiliates, shames and demeans them, in front of the body of Christ, and the money is now sent to H.Q. VP now takes over.
My feeling is, VP hijacked these mens' ministries. VP was a wolf in sheep's clothing, - he waited until the evangelization these men and their ministries were doing for God resulted in thousands of people being won to Christ through them. VP waited until it was exploding then fired them, and took their ministries for himself. He was able to get two of the founders of a true revival of God to our baby-boom generation, away from the true movement and into his.
The men were young, they loved God and his Word, and were manipulated by VP. They woke up soon enough though.
Compare the fruit of those men who, in the meetings and class VP ran for them when he first visited, decided not to go with him and continue with their ministries. Result?
The Vineyard is still thriving and growing today, TWI is a dead ministry.
Regardless though, Dopp, Heefner, and others will have their rewards in heaven.
Hello all.
Just a hypothetical question, but after reading these threads has it ever ocurred to anybody that maybe VP was the adversaries means of squelching this movement? Just a thought. I got in in 1974 and never knew any of this stuff. Forutunately I met my wife in the ministry and we both realized things weren't right in 1981 and left.
When you fit all the pieces together (like a jigsaw puzzle), the picture that emerges is one of VP Wierwille with horns on his head...
Looking at how Veepee hijacked the ministries of Doop and Heefner through manipulation, declaring himself in charge and grabbing all the money...
combine that with how he stole the works of BG Leonard and others...
You got a guy who stole the academics of other men, and then stole the practical ministries of the Jesus movement...got himself a "Dr.'s degree" through a phoney mail order "college" and then set himself up as the MOG!
...and through it all he was a drunk and an adulterer...
He was a conman and a grifter of the first degree. It was always about self glory and money for him...he couldn't have done any of it without being a ruthless liar and thief.
...and this is the guy that Mike and others STILL put up on a pedestal...ouch!
Rascal, it is an interesting thought tho isn't it? VP was able to gather all of the best on both coasts and stick the headquarters for the movement out in the middle of nowhere in the midwest. When I got in in 1974 it was all hugs, kisses and the folks I was around were sincere about god, jesus and moving the word. Not to long after tho came the forced witnessing at malls, door to door knocking and general stuff that I just didn't feel comfortable with. I was in Raleigh NC at the time and spent lots of time at the way home in Greenville. I was living in the Raleigh way home when I met my wife. I met her at a backyard party we were giving for the area believers and she had been in the ministry for about a year before me. She immediately caught my eye and we were married by Rev Randy An*der**son in 1977. Been married 29 years the 9th of July. I've always said that was one of the few things that I got out of the ministry that I am really thankful for. John Sch*ien*height(sp) was leading the way home and the teachings were very good. That was a good time! But it quickly fell into something that I didn't want to be a part of and my wife felt the same. We came to hear the word taught, not worship some dude on a stage. Once the way corp hit town everything changed. In 1976 I was still living in the way home and Richard Mar**MOr blew into town with his wife and family, driving a brand new BMW that lord knows who paid for. First thing he did was kick me and a couple of my buddies out of the way home so that he would have a place to live. Thats what really ....ed me off and started my exit out the door. I was just too young, stupid and didn't have the B a ll s
to stand up to him. Things would be different now. Now back into lurkdom.
Waytomuch - yes, that thought had crossed my mind :)
I see, looking back in hindsight, where VP, in order to be successful, hijacked two ministries. The first, was B.G. Leonard's - he stole his class, almost word for word, charts, etc. This class gave him a product to sell.
The second, was his going to CA, and finding men who would win the youth for him. He knew he never could. VP could be very loving and charismatic and kind to people when he wanted something or their allegiance. I do not fault Doop or Heefner at all. They heard the Word in PFAL, which was Leonard's teaching and realized this was a great way to get the message out. It was a tool for them to spread the Word.
All of the members in TWI were a direct result of Doop and Heefner. As we kids moved, we told others. The hippie kids got in TWI because of these two in CA and NY, some travelled to Kansas and other states - over a couple of years it moved out all over the country. Remember, the sixties and early '70s was a time of wandering, hitchhiking youth all over the place, a nomadic generation.
Once Doop and Heefner were gone, you never had quite the explosion of the early years. Yes, people were won for a while after, mostly by men who had been with Doop and Heefner, but that leveled off, the explosiveness was lost. Once VP took the reigns it became rule oriented. I remember I was sorely disappointed in '71 when I was told I couldn't fellowship in Rye anymore, I now had to go to Larchmont fellowships. All of a sudden, the go where you want, fellowship with whoever, was being taken away. The rules started coming down, many of us started drifting away. It started becoming corporate under VPs rule - and I believe he knew exactly what he was doing, since, with the expulsion of Doop and Heefner, it was now "his" ministry.
Yes, I have wondered what would have happened if VP hadn't stuck his finger in the pie and siphoned off, maybe one-third of the movement to himself.
He would have been a little preacher on a cornfield with a handful of followers. VP could never have attracted the hippie youth people by himself. Never in a million years.
Back out of lurkdom for a second. Sunesis I couldn't agree with you more. I also think that the reason we were encouraged to get an education in the early years is because it provided them with an easily accessible and very vulnerable crop from which to harvest. I am very thankful that I stayed in school and had something to do after I decided to leave. And like you say about vp, he certainly didn't have any 'charisma' that I saw. I saw him as an elderly man who seemed to know the word and was willing to share it with me. And thats all I saw him as... little did I know what hid beneath. When I got fed up enough to leave I had just had way 2 much. Hence my monikor. Without doop, heefner and leonard Vp would have been nothing. He just lucked into a generation of freespirited, trusting and loving youngsters searching for answers and truth. But I do wonder tho how much was luck. He did manage to kill off alot of the truth that existed and today is pretty much buried. I wonder if a generation of the same spirit will ever arise again. I certainly don't see it in the kids of today. As they say.... timing is everything..
I think that when people say it was over - at least this is what I think - that refers to the fact that the leaven was in, & it was only a matter of time till the whole was leavened.
You're definitely right about the numbers going higher between about '75 & '80, but a lot of that movement was generated from the hearts of people that wanted to see what happened in the early '70's happen again.
And you're also correct that as the leaven was posited first in the center, HQ, it moved further and farther out from there (that is both in the expansion and the degree of the iron legalism - the leaven).
But the increase that was happening in the early '70's was never duplicated. We were all over bars & parties - I mean sometimes we took them over. I remember a young lady at fellowship said that she believed we should all go to this apartment where she had visited the night before where people were all tripping on LSD - that she thought there would be fruit there. We went there a couple of times. The second night, I told everyone at the party what we were all into - a short nutshell version of the giving of holy spirit. The girl who said we should go there spoke in tongues & interpreted (it was cool - I knew in my spirit that she would - it was sweet working with people in a synched up relationship like that). A guy on the couch sitting next to her, tripping, went into convulsions, & she ministered to him. He stopped convulsing, & went to sleep as she was ministering. Then I spoke in tongues and interpreted. Then one of the tripping partiers spoke in tongues and interpreted - & I have to tell you, the messages were amazing - God was there working with us - no boring messages. In Long Island, we had PDSTRO playing in bars. They played at parks - impromptu. I mean we knew they were going to play, but no one else did. We had what we called guerilla theater that we also did impromptu whether in a park or a college student center.
You needed 30 new students to have a film class. From the time there were like, I don't know, 20-30 people in fellowship, for over a year, we ran film classes back to back. Sometimes in the beginning, there were more new students than grads.
By the time the years between '75 & '80 came around, it should have exploded in a manner - well, the increase in numbers that was seen then was - I'm sorry, I'm lost for words here. stupid analogy - it was like a rocket ship exploding off the launch pad on the way to Mars, having the navigation system malfunction, and screeching to a halt in the desert while the people in the desert looked on & said, "Wow, that was cool!" Compared to what would have happened had the ship went where it was supposed to - my God, who knows.
Not to discredit the true experiences of those who walked with God in that desert or before or after.
But that's what I think.
Future hasn't happened yet, & the fat lady hasn't sung.
Yes, I too see that B.G. Leonard's class cataputed wierwille's reach beyond a corner in ohio. Even mrs. wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, spells this out.
And, in hindsight...........IMO the corps program was a wierwille-engraved attempt at "the school of tyrannus" with self-serving agendas of control and manipulation. With strong emphasis of pfal indoctrination, dale carnegie principles, self-improvement, and wierwille-based corps principles.....the corps program was rooted on stony ground. Only lip service to God and Jesus as lord......but in actuality, a production mill of "pfal class instructors" and allegiance to wierwille.
Martindale is the epitome of one who sold out to wierwille doctrine.
Twi is not "the true ministry" spreading the Word. The Scriptures shine the LIGHT of twi's idolatry and blinded allegiance and the fruit that it will bear.
God honors true ministries, not corporate structures.
Yes, I got your question. In the area I'm talking about - Long Island, the sex & drugs didn't come in - okay, let me back up here.
I was absolutely a heroin junkie when I got involved with TWI. My street senses were honed to the max, & I was in the middle of what was going on with TWI (in LI). If there were any drugs happening, I would have known. Not saying there weren't any anywhere, but it just wasn't happening - if you know what I mean. What was happening was that people like me, & lighter users, were going straight & turning on to the power of God. Perez on LI told me that anything that could ever happen that had anything genuine about it with Acid or any other drug, God could & would trump. Any drug user could relate to that sell. I could. And God backed it up.
I was like the ultimate questioner when I got involved. Maybe I was a real pain, I don't know. I remember the 1st time I saw Steve Heefner. He taught at a fellowship down someone's basement in LI. After his teaching, we touched base on the stairway there. I asked question after question for about 20 minutes, & all Steve did was answer them, answer them, answer them. He had to know how hungry I was. He filled me up for 20 minutes, & said he had to go, & he would see me in Rye on Sunday. Damn straight he would.
I thought I had done a fairly good job of kickin H after I got involved with fellowship - course people kick the physical habit time & time again, & the experience SUCKS, but they havent' taken care of what they need, so they go back. Yeah, & that's really stupid, & every time is worse than the last.
Anyway, at this point, I was pretty convinced that these people had real power (I had been involved in some fairly amazing ESP, & some basic, but real magic - I knew there was spiritual power around), but I was still pretty confused about the difference between the genuine & the counterfeit. I was really uptight about witnessing. I ran into someone at that time who had some good H, & I copped a nice fat hit from him from which I got a "righteous" high (excuse the slang). Next thing I know, I'm witnessing all over town without any fear, having an awesome day. Call it counterfeit if you will, I don't care; it's not my point.
That night, I'm finally at home; it's been a great day, & I'm reading the Word before I go to sleep - still nodding out from the H as I do so. Right then, I'm visited by a spirit, complete with classic banshee laugh/scream, chains rattling, vocal deal from the devil - if you do this, I'll do that - the whole freakin bit. Well, I've never had anything like this happen, I'm freaked out. I rebuke him in the name of Jesus Christ (which is always supposed to work). He laughs at me - LAUGHS at me. Now I'm really freaked out. I ask God to show me a way out. That's when the spirit offered "if you do this, I'll do that ." Well, I'm a junkie - I know that if there was ever a set up, that was it, & I tell the spirit that he is a liar. Blam, he leaves.
Next day is Sunday fellowship in Rye, NY. BE THERE ON TIME (You Rye people have to be able to relate to Steve's efforts to get us there on time.) I'm still messed up from the day before, & I show up late. As I come up to the double doors there, & open them as quietly as I can ( I know how to open doors quietly), I hear Steve finishing up his opening prayer. His next words are "...and I thank you God for rebuking the effects of the drug heroin," and, immediately I feel like as if I never had gotten high. As Steve said that, & as I moved quietly up the isle, Steve Perez, the guy who was moving it oni LI, turned around & looked at me. Perez knew, Heefner knew, the Holy Spirit knew, & I knew. Watching Steve work with God was the way a lot of us learned how to walk. He was just so open about it, & if you had your eyes open, you learned how to do stuff.
So, I'm all healed from the heroin, the teaching is amazing, but I'm still worried about the spirit and the banshee laugh. I'm POSSESSED!!! Yeah, funny, right.
After the fellowship, I make my way to the back where Steve is. Wow, we're alone. I start telling him about the night before, & when I get to the laugh, he cuts me off. He doesn't want to hear it; he's heard it before himself. Its a spirit of witchcraft, & he doesn't want to hear my version of the scream. And he starts to walk away. Holy cow, how can he leave me like this? I start to stutter, & finally I get it out, "Don't you think maybe that I still need deliverance from this spirit?" As soon as I get the courage to say that, I feel totally delivered. I dont say anything to that effect to Steve, but right after I got the deliverance, Steve says to me that he thinks that I just got it - which, of course, I just did. Well, there I am, jumping & leaping & praising God on my way out.
But the point is that you don't fool Holy Spirit. The move of the Word at that point wasn't happening because people were turned on by drugs & sex. Drugs & sex were being moved out by Holy Spirit.
It was after the back to back classes stopped that drugs and sex came into the LI fellowship.
Really - I remember the back to back classes, I remember the drugs coming back in, & I remember the sex coming into the fellowship. And it was after the back to back classes, and as the rift between HQ & Heefner & Perez started to happen.
That was a good question & a damn good answer.
Wow Tom, thank you for sharing that. I think you are right, drugs were being pushed out by the Holy Spirit. I know several people from my high school who did them and after a few fellowships stopped doing them.
The part about Heefner, as you walked in, thanking God for deliverance from the drug heroin - that's what I saw, things that maybe applied to one person, walking with God, they knew, they followed the guidance of the Holy Spirt, and people got delivered. And you'd watch these guys, called by God to lead us, and the things they did and said that were from God. There was a sense that the Holy Spirit was with them and us. They were our older experienced teachers.
They taught, and their actions backed it up, people were delivered - and they did it so naturally - true ministry of evangelization in action. People saw power in their friends' lives and deliverance, they wanted the Word too.
Is anyone in a position to inquire of the Doop family regarding Jim's book? It sure would be illuminating for so many of us to read his account of what took place all those years ago...
Ha! Kids learn. It's what they're good at. Verbose teachings bore them. They love to get into the mix and see what happens. Touch the stove to see if it's really HOT! Figure out who to trust, who not to trust.
By the time we get all grown up, we figure we've got that all settled. "Tryin' to make a living and doing the best we can." and all. We forget to wonder. We dismiss things out of hand. We fail to attempt to learn. We know it all..... Share something with a grown up that's gotten to that point and they'll tell you "Been there, done that kid. You are doing it all wrong."
they've given up
They only want to stratify what they have already considered by them to be the truth, and they won't let the truth get in their way.
Yeah, oh yeah,... be a kid, go out and play - learn new things. DO STUFF!!! Do stuff you think is silly. Especially stuff you've never tried before. I tried to raise a guy from the dead once, didn't happen but I TRIED. I was really mad at God for a while after that, sort of like a kid that was told she couldn't have her favorite thing. But I've tried other stuff that worked. If I didn't try, I guess I'd just never get much done beyond go to work, watch TV, go to bed, ... wrinse and repeat.
I tried to stay on topic here, even though I wasn't even alive for Jim Doop, The Way West and VPW
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Ham
If so, I hope it is far more encompassing.. than some little movement in California, or New York..
Tom
Wow, well here’s what I see, and what I think I’m seeing. As always, God has the big picture. I’m just following the tracks the best I can. Sunesis: “…does it seem to you, less people are getting b
geisha779
Feel better? Maybe you are a bit confused....a church may MEET in a building.....but, it is a group of Christians who meet together in fellowship around the Lord. I wear jeans to church and rarely "d
Sunesis
Wow Tom, thank you for sharing that. I think you are right, drugs were being pushed out by the Holy Spirit. I know several people from my high school who did them and after a few fellowships stopped doing them.
The part about Heefner, as you walked in, thanking God for deliverance from the drug heroin - that's what I saw, things that maybe applied to one person, walking with God, they knew, they followed the guidance of the Holy Spirt, and people got delivered. And you'd watch these guys, called by God to lead us, and the things they did and said that were from God. There was a sense that the Holy Spirit was with them and us. They were our older experienced teachers.
They taught, and their actions backed it up, people were delivered - and they did it so naturally - true ministry of evangelization in action. People saw power in their friends' lives and deliverance, they wanted the Word too.
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MCarroll
Interesting....Have any of you ever seen the video promoted by Calvary Chapel on how they started? When I first saw it, it was like I was watching the video on how The Way started (sorry, I cant recall the name of it). Don't get me wrong, I'm not clumping CCs with The Way, but just thought it was such a coincidence how they both started with the same goal, bring in the "unlovables" that no other church accepted. It is uncanny the resemblance on both videos.
MC
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rhino
Great to hear that happened ... I was just blurring in some of the stories about the smokin' at ROA and all. Deliverance from H sounds genuine to me. Thanks for telling about it.
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MCarroll
Was Jim an older man? Was there a Tony at that time as well? I have a cool story to tell, but I really cant recall the gentleman's name.
I was in between First year In Residence and Interim year. It was the summer break and i was sent to RC to help out. I was assigned to work Grounds and worked hard that summer. Picking strawberries and killing the chickens and working the corn fields.
The one day we were working the corn fields, we had to go row by row and just make sure that the newly born corn stalks would not be covered by dirt, and so we had to go stalk by stalk clearing the dirt off each corn stalk down the long corn rows. As I was clearing the dirt, I saw something shiny peering out from just right under the ground. I got curious and started digging, and found, to my surpirse a graduate dove ring. you know the kind they used to sell at TWI with the red ruby and the dove...etc. I immediately picked it, cleaned it on my jeans and gave it a good look. It had an engraving inside. I cant recall what it said inside but I believe it had a name or maybe just initials inside. I told a few of my fellow workers around me about the ring and since our coordinator was not around at the time, I just pocketed the ring and went back to work with intentions to take it Lost and Found or somebody in Admin. (For some reason, I want to call our coordinator, Tony...maybe that was his name). So when our coordinator came back to check back on us and gather us up for lunch, several of the co-workers told him about the ring. Immediately the coordinator was very interested and said "You found a ring? Where?" So I explained to him and took out the ring. He practically snatched it off my hand and looked inside for the inscription. He then said, "Oh my God! this is MY ring!!! I lost it about 10...." and hesitated as he was thinking about how long he had lost his ring. I thought he was goint to say something like "10 days ago or even 10 weeks ago or so" was I surprised when he finished his sentence with "10 YEARS ago!!!!!" He proceeded to tell us the story that 10 years ago he had been in RC working on the grounds (why was he working on the grounds with a ring on, is beyond me), but he lost his ring on those same grounds. He never found it then, until now. You could tell it was an older ring because it had the dove INSIDE the ruby instead of ON TOP as they were selling them that way in the later years. Anyway...he was delighted as you can imagine. I just thought this was an amazing God story and it was cool to see somebody rejoice as they got back something they had lost so long agon. I love to tell this story.
Im sorry for going on blabbing....probably not the right forum to post this on, but just thought about this story as you were mentioning RC. It was a wild summer, will never forget it.
MC
PS...i just realized that I posted this story a while back (2 years ago), in case it sounded familiar...geez...am I getting THAT old?????
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Tom
Hi Ex,
Thanks for the welcome. I love you too, sweetheart.
Always
,
Tom
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excathedra
same, tomlitwin
i talked to jimmy doop last night and told him about this thread. he's having trouble logging into greasespot. i sent him a link and i hope it works.
i really like him. his stories about the early days (similar to what tom said about the money and power changing hands) makes me think the god stuff was really happening. i feel like veepee stole it.....
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Oakspear
bump
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anotherDan
thanks for the bump, Oakspear
I asked on another thread, but I've lost it. Does anyone have information on the book Jim D00p was writing? Is it available?
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coolchef
sorry dan
jim passed away a while ago
he was a great guy
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anotherDan
yes, I know.
Just wondering about the book. Does anyone know? If it's not published, maybe some of his friends could do it. I'd be willing to help, if I can.
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now I see
Me too, Dan.
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coolchef
i would also
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gc
This is interesting thread. I didn't get into twi until the late 70's or maybe it was early 80's, but I had already met God by then. The church where I was going at the time was wonderful. Most of the people there were either teens or 20 something year olds-long hair and blue jeans everywhere. We were so young and innocent then and we loved God with everything we had. We would regularly go to the French Quarters to witness, sing praises to God with abandonment as we drove around in the old delivery van (and I can't sing a lick!) and it seems that our life style had changed over night from drugs to Jesus people. Once I was part of twi everything changed, it went from loving with your heart to loving with your head. It was so hard to live up to expectations.
I'm so sorry that Jim Doop has died, I was thinking of e-mailing him about his book :( I guess I can't now.
gc
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now I see
Yeah gc, I know what you mean, I tried emailing him the week before he past away, I too would like to read his book.
One other thing, I was talking to Waysider in chat the other day, and he told me about Bill McNulty in Cleveland, OH. It seems he was much like Doop, Heefner, Perez, Fugit, etc in the early days, he had built a huge following in Cleveland, until one day VPee swooped in replaced him and others who were leading, and took his work away from him, took all the ABS to Hq's and ruined Bill and his wife's reputation the same way they did to the Heefner's and Doop's. Here's a post by DontWorryBeHappy about it:
It really sux we had such a band of false prophet wolves at the helm of twi destroying the work of God as it was outpouring in the early 70's. What a loss to all of us, these men and women who were walking with God, these God placed examples for us, were wiped away and replaced by man made cheap imitations groomed and orchestrated by an anti-christ self worshipper.
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gc
After reading some of the stories of what went on, I do sometime feel the fool.
gc
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Tom
In many respects we all play the fool, gc. Year by year, I'm more impressed with how messed up man is and how wonderful God is. I think we're supposed to be learning that.
Even the greats were foolish at times.
Take this word about Moses, Aaron, and Samuel, for example:
Psalms 99:5 Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy.
6 ¶Moses and Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them that call upon his name; they called upon the LORD, and he answered them.
7 He spake unto them in the cloudy pillar: they kept his testimonies, and the ordinance that he gave them.
8 Thou answeredst them, O LORD our God: thou wast a God that forgavest them, though thou tookest vengeance of their inventions.
"Their inventions," yet God forgave them and answered them, so we exalt the Lord our God.
Even Solomon, the wisest man, didn't he screw around with over 1,000 wives or some ridiculous number, and so get corrupted? And didn't that lead to the downward spiral of David's kingdom?
One day, when I was young and evil, I fell on my face before the Lord and asked him to save me. And he did. And I became like a child, surrounded and filled by his love in my innocence. He loved me, saved me, and protected me despite my foolishness without requiring a damn thing of me. That relationship was just fine, fine, fine, by me.
Jesus said unless you become like a little child, there's no way you can enter into the kingdom of God.
Still true. Anything else is just foolish pretension.
Are we too "wise" to be children again. Pshaw! Be children again. It's the only way.
Tom
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GrouchoMarxJr
Then children we shall be!...I think too many folks in this country get swept away with our minute rice mind culture and the instant gratification that the American consumer craves daily...perhaps your financial portfolio and the condition of your 401k is not the most important thing in life afterall...because in the final analysis the only thing you really have is your personal integrity and your faith...
I talked with Jim Doop for 2 hours...a few months before his death...it was one of the greatest conversations I have ever had. He told me the whole story of the "waywest" and the arrival of VP cornfield...he told me a lot of things...
As far as his book goes, he mentioned it in passing to me...but only vaguely. I believe that a family member of his posted here when he passed away...to let us know...perhaps that would be the person to ask about the book?
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HAPe4me
that is true Groucho. His nephew posted with the announcement:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=11735
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Tom
Cool translation of Psalm 119:41 in the Message version of the bible:
Let your love, God, shape my life with salvation, exactly as you promised.
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WordWolf
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WordWolf
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Sunesis
Wow - thanks for bringing this up again - its always wonderful to see what happened, where we were, and those of us still here. :)
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TheHighWay
Is anyone in a position to inquire of the Doop family regarding Jim's book? It sure would be illuminating for so many of us to read his account of what took place all those years ago...
TheHighWay
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Gen-2
Ha! Kids learn. It's what they're good at. Verbose teachings bore them. They love to get into the mix and see what happens. Touch the stove to see if it's really HOT! Figure out who to trust, who not to trust.
By the time we get all grown up, we figure we've got that all settled. "Tryin' to make a living and doing the best we can." and all. We forget to wonder. We dismiss things out of hand. We fail to attempt to learn. We know it all..... Share something with a grown up that's gotten to that point and they'll tell you "Been there, done that kid. You are doing it all wrong."
they've given up
They only want to stratify what they have already considered by them to be the truth, and they won't let the truth get in their way.
Yeah, oh yeah,... be a kid, go out and play - learn new things. DO STUFF!!! Do stuff you think is silly. Especially stuff you've never tried before. I tried to raise a guy from the dead once, didn't happen but I TRIED. I was really mad at God for a while after that, sort of like a kid that was told she couldn't have her favorite thing. But I've tried other stuff that worked. If I didn't try, I guess I'd just never get much done beyond go to work, watch TV, go to bed, ... wrinse and repeat.
I tried to stay on topic here, even though I wasn't even alive for Jim Doop, The Way West and VPW
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