Just a hypothetical question, but after reading these threads has it ever ocurred to anybody that maybe VP was the adversaries means of squelching this movement? Just a thought. I got in in 1974 and never knew any of this stuff. Forutunately I met my wife in the ministry and we both realized things weren't right in 1981 and left.
I think VP used these men in just the way you say. Whether that was his intention from the start it's hard to say, but I'll agree VP was ever the wolf.
I read a book on the nascent Jesus movement & the "House of Acts", that rambling Victorian house in Novato that morphed into a Way phenomenon. Heefner & Doop are mentioned. Very interesting.
Now whether the Jesus movement was a true revival or not (at least on the scale you present), I'm not sure. But I have no doubts those men were genuine & sincere.
Wow Way2much...now THAT is an interesting thought.
I have always wonder what great good might have been accomplished in the name of God had all of our selfless efforts, the millions of man hours of labor, millions of dollars, millions of hours of prayer not been sucked into serving a few evil men.
I think that Sunesis is right....it would seem that what was good and attracted people to twi was due directly to other mens ministries.... VPW just hijacked them for his own illicit purposes.
I knew that his ministry interupted and derailed many individual lives, but I never thought of it interfering with an entire movement :(
there's a lot to that, i think. certainly, a lot of twi's appeal to younger people is due to what they co-opted from these movements. i can't imagine many of us would've been able to stomach the earlier incarnation--when they were still all vesper chimes churchy, prayed in king james english (with "thee"s and "thou"s), etc.
When you fit all the pieces together (like a jigsaw puzzle), the picture that emerges is one of VP Wierwille with horns on his head...
Looking at how Veepee hijacked the ministries of Doop and Heefner through manipulation, declaring himself in charge and grabbing all the money...
combine that with how he stole the works of BG Leonard and others...
You got a guy who stole the academics of other men, and then stole the practical ministries of the Jesus movement...got himself a "Dr.'s degree" through a phoney mail order "college" and then set himself up as the MOG!
...and through it all he was a drunk and an adulterer...
He was a conman and a grifter of the first degree. It was always about self glory and money for him...he couldn't have done any of it without being a ruthless liar and thief.
...and this is the guy that Mike and others STILL put up on a pedestal...ouch!
Rascal, it is an interesting thought tho isn't it? VP was able to gather all of the best on both coasts and stick the headquarters for the movement out in the middle of nowhere in the midwest. When I got in in 1974 it was all hugs, kisses and the folks I was around were sincere about god, jesus and moving the word. Not to long after tho came the forced witnessing at malls, door to door knocking and general stuff that I just didn't feel comfortable with. I was in Raleigh NC at the time and spent lots of time at the way home in Greenville. I was living in the Raleigh way home when I met my wife. I met her at a backyard party we were giving for the area believers and she had been in the ministry for about a year before me. She immediately caught my eye and we were married by Rev Randy An*der**son in 1977. Been married 29 years the 9th of July. I've always said that was one of the few things that I got out of the ministry that I am really thankful for. John Sch*ien*height(sp) was leading the way home and the teachings were very good. That was a good time! But it quickly fell into something that I didn't want to be a part of and my wife felt the same. We came to hear the word taught, not worship some dude on a stage. Once the way corp hit town everything changed. In 1976 I was still living in the way home and Richard Mar**MOr blew into town with his wife and family, driving a brand new BMW that lord knows who paid for. First thing he did was kick me and a couple of my buddies out of the way home so that he would have a place to live. Thats what really ....ed me off and started my exit out the door. I was just too young, stupid and didn't have the B a ll s
to stand up to him. Things would be different now. Now back into lurkdom.
Waytomuch - yes, that thought had crossed my mind :)
I see, looking back in hindsight, where VP, in order to be successful, hijacked two ministries. The first, was B.G. Leonard's - he stole his class, almost word for word, charts, etc. This class gave him a product to sell.
The second, was his going to CA, and finding men who would win the youth for him. He knew he never could. VP could be very loving and charismatic and kind to people when he wanted something or their allegiance. I do not fault Doop or Heefner at all. They heard the Word in PFAL, which was Leonard's teaching and realized this was a great way to get the message out. It was a tool for them to spread the Word.
All of the members in TWI were a direct result of Doop and Heefner. As we kids moved, we told others. The hippie kids got in TWI because of these two in CA and NY, some travelled to Kansas and other states - over a couple of years it moved out all over the country. Remember, the sixties and early '70s was a time of wandering, hitchhiking youth all over the place, a nomadic generation.
Once Doop and Heefner were gone, you never had quite the explosion of the early years. Yes, people were won for a while after, mostly by men who had been with Doop and Heefner, but that leveled off, the explosiveness was lost. Once VP took the reigns it became rule oriented. I remember I was sorely disappointed in '71 when I was told I couldn't fellowship in Rye anymore, I now had to go to Larchmont fellowships. All of a sudden, the go where you want, fellowship with whoever, was being taken away. The rules started coming down, many of us started drifting away. It started becoming corporate under VPs rule - and I believe he knew exactly what he was doing, since, with the expulsion of Doop and Heefner, it was now "his" ministry.
Yes, I have wondered what would have happened if VP hadn't stuck his finger in the pie and siphoned off, maybe one-third of the movement to himself.
He would have been a little preacher on a cornfield with a handful of followers. VP could never have attracted the hippie youth people by himself. Never in a million years.
Back out of lurkdom for a second. Sunesis I couldn't agree with you more. I also think that the reason we were encouraged to get an education in the early years is because it provided them with an easily accessible and very vulnerable crop from which to harvest. I am very thankful that I stayed in school and had something to do after I decided to leave. And like you say about vp, he certainly didn't have any 'charisma' that I saw. I saw him as an elderly man who seemed to know the word and was willing to share it with me. And thats all I saw him as... little did I know what hid beneath. When I got fed up enough to leave I had just had way 2 much. Hence my monikor. Without doop, heefner and leonard Vp would have been nothing. He just lucked into a generation of freespirited, trusting and loving youngsters searching for answers and truth. But I do wonder tho how much was luck. He did manage to kill off alot of the truth that existed and today is pretty much buried. I wonder if a generation of the same spirit will ever arise again. I certainly don't see it in the kids of today. As they say.... timing is everything..
wish i knew more about what exactly bg leonard taught (not enough to pay for it!), but it looks to me like he had plenty of his own goofiness. on his ministry's ugly mess of a website, i found this statement:
"The King James Version of the Bible is the only Authorized and God-appointed translation of the Bible."
hello? earth to bg...this is rationality calling.
oh, and i like this one, too, from the foreward of his "gifts of the spirit" book:
"One day God spoke to me. "If thou wilt wait patiently before me, I will give thee the revelation concerning that which is written in my Word touching these things; the revelation my people need to bring them out of their chaos and confusion."
god speaks in king james english? i'm sorry, but bg either was full of it, or a few bricks shy of a full load--why in hell would god speak to a 20th-century man in 17th-century english?
Without doop, heefner and leonard Vp would have been nothing. He just lucked into a generation of freespirited, trusting and loving youngsters searching for answers and truth. But I do wonder tho how much was luck. He did manage to kill off alot of the truth that existed and today is pretty much buried. I wonder if a generation of the same spirit will ever arise again. I certainly don't see it in the kids of today. As they say.... timing is everything..
Just a hypothetical question, but after reading these threads has it ever ocurred to anybody that maybe VP was the adversaries means of squelching this movement? Just a thought. I got in in 1974 and never knew any of this stuff. Forutunately I met my wife in the ministry and we both realized things weren't right in 1981 and left.
Welome to Grease Spot, Way2much...And thanks for that very, very, very, exceeding abundantly interesting post...I think you might have something there!!!
A few of us here on this board were living at RC from 84-86 and they were not on staff then. After POP, I would doubt they even would have been welcome, so my guess it had to be pre-84 (if at all), as VP was spending more and more time at RC after being a persona non grata at HQ after lcm took over the reigns. Hope someone else knows.
A few of us here on this board were living at RC from 84-86 and they were not on staff then. After POP, I would doubt they even would have been welcome, so my guess it had to be pre-84 (if at all), as VP was spending more and more time at RC after being a persona non grata at HQ after lcm took over the reigns. Hope someone else knows.
J.
Thanks for the welcome!
It was Way year 86-87, I was Family Corps and Jim was in charge of grounds, my wife worked with him and I think Judy was in charge of housekeeping. Jim used to hang out with us in the second floor lobby at night after meetings, some of the secret smoking corps would get a cigarette from him, Camel filters, if memory serves.
He was very cool and non-religous/legalistic, still wondering how he wound up back there.
Jim, if your still reading, your manner was always graceful and a blessing. I've tried to emulate that "vibe", I think I've succeeded, I sincerely hope you are well!
"Over-by-then". I got *in* in '75 also. Had anyone told me it was *over* when I was just starting,I'd have told them they were nuts. Not now. :(
Well I'm not so sure ... I'm not so enamored with the hippie, tie die dope Jesus aspect ... though from what I hear those guys were certainly more sincere than VP. Maybe the Jesus part was good, but wasn't there a "bigger" ministry after that for a few years. I was in in '75, it seems then till '80 was the peak maybe number wise, before the greed and sex stuff started to dominate and drive folks away? I'm thinking people on the outskirts could do their own thing a little before they got too involved with the oppressive parts. As things got bigger everything was dictated ... mandates established ...
Maybe it's over as soon as one starts letting someone else tell them what to believe. Perhaps those guys had some genuine stuff going on and it was ground to a halt by vp and company. But I don't remember anything from those guys, just VP and the local guys. But it was the local long hair guy that initiated things I guess ... perhaps it was his inspiration from the earlier era that got it going at U of IL. Hmmmmmm :)
Well I'm not so sure ... I'm not so enamored with the hippie, tie die dope Jesus aspect ... though from what I hear those guys were certainly more sincere than VP. Maybe the Jesus part was good, but wasn't there a "bigger" ministry after that for a few years. I was in in '75, it seems then till '80 was the peak maybe number wise, before the greed and sex stuff started to dominate and drive folks away? I'm thinking people on the outskirts could do their own thing a little before they got too involved with the oppressive parts. As things got bigger everything was dictated ... mandates established ...
Maybe it's over as soon as one starts letting someone else tell them what to believe. Perhaps those guys had some genuine stuff going on and it was ground to a halt by vp and company. But I don't remember anything from those guys, just VP and the local guys. But it was the local long hair guy that initiated things I guess ... perhaps it was his inspiration from the earlier era that got it going at U of IL. Hmmmmmm :)
I think that when people say it was over - at least this is what I think - that refers to the fact that the leaven was in, & it was only a matter of time till the whole was leavened.
You're definitely right about the numbers going higher between about '75 & '80, but a lot of that movement was generated from the hearts of people that wanted to see what happened in the early '70's happen again.
And you're also correct that as the leaven was posited first in the center, HQ, it moved further and farther out from there (that is both in the expansion and the degree of the iron legalism - the leaven).
But the increase that was happening in the early '70's was never duplicated. We were all over bars & parties - I mean sometimes we took them over. I remember a young lady at fellowship said that she believed we should all go to this apartment where she had visited the night before where people were all tripping on LSD - that she thought there would be fruit there. We went there a couple of times. The second night, I told everyone at the party what we were all into - a short nutshell version of the giving of holy spirit. The girl who said we should go there spoke in tongues & interpreted (it was cool - I knew in my spirit that she would - it was sweet working with people in a synched up relationship like that). A guy on the couch sitting next to her, tripping, went into convulsions, & she ministered to him. He stopped convulsing, & went to sleep as she was ministering. Then I spoke in tongues and interpreted. Then one of the tripping partiers spoke in tongues and interpreted - & I have to tell you, the messages were amazing - God was there working with us - no boring messages. In Long Island, we had PDSTRO playing in bars. They played at parks - impromptu. I mean we knew they were going to play, but no one else did. We had what we called guerilla theater that we also did impromptu whether in a park or a college student center.
You needed 30 new students to have a film class. From the time there were like, I don't know, 20-30 people in fellowship, for over a year, we ran film classes back to back. Sometimes in the beginning, there were more new students than grads.
By the time the years between '75 & '80 came around, it should have exploded in a manner - well, the increase in numbers that was seen then was - I'm sorry, I'm lost for words here. stupid analogy - it was like a rocket ship exploding off the launch pad on the way to Mars, having the navigation system malfunction, and screeching to a halt in the desert while the people in the desert looked on & said, "Wow, that was cool!" Compared to what would have happened had the ship went where it was supposed to - my God, who knows.
Not to discredit the true experiences of those who walked with God in that desert or before or after.
But that's what I think.
Future hasn't happened yet, & the fat lady hasn't sung.
Waytomuch - yes, that thought had crossed my mind :)
I see, looking back in hindsight, where VP, in order to be successful, hijacked two ministries. The first, was B.G. Leonard's - he stole his class, almost word for word, charts, etc. This class gave him a product to sell.
The second, was his going to CA, and finding men who would win the youth for him. He knew he never could. VP could be very loving and charismatic and kind to people when he wanted something or their allegiance. I do not fault Doop or Heefner at all. They heard the Word in PFAL, which was Leonard's teaching and realized this was a great way to get the message out. It was a tool for them to spread the Word.
Yes, I too see that B.G. Leonard's class cataputed wierwille's reach beyond a corner in ohio. Even mrs. wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, spells this out.
And, in hindsight...........IMO the corps program was a wierwille-engraved attempt at "the school of tyrannus" with self-serving agendas of control and manipulation. With strong emphasis of pfal indoctrination, dale carnegie principles, self-improvement, and wierwille-based corps principles.....the corps program was rooted on stony ground. Only lip service to God and Jesus as lord......but in actuality, a production mill of "pfal class instructors" and allegiance to wierwille.
Martindale is the epitome of one who sold out to wierwille doctrine.
Twi is not "the true ministry" spreading the Word. The Scriptures shine the LIGHT of twi's idolatry and blinded allegiance and the fruit that it will bear.
God honors true ministries, not corporate structures.
This is a great thread. This is why I keep coming back to GSpot. I love history and believe that gaining an historical perspective on things is the only way to fully understand them. I got involved in TWI in 1982. There was still an aspect of TWI that reflected this freedom ( this is what drew me to TWI) but it continually got ratcheted down and then squelched by the end of the 80’s or beginning of the 90’s.
Jim, I await with great eagerness for you to inform us more about your book and how it can be purchased.
I don’t visit GSpot all the time so I hope Pawtuckett will send out an all-mailing when the book is available and how to purchase it.
Yes, I too see that B.G. Leonard's class cataputed wierwille's reach beyond a corner in ohio. Even mrs. wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, spells this out.
And, in hindsight...........IMO the corps program was a wierwille-engraved attempt at "the school of tyrannus" with self-serving agendas of control and manipulation. With strong emphasis of pfal indoctrination, dale carnegie principles, self-improvement, and wierwille-based corps principles.....the corps program was rooted on stony ground. Only lip service to God and Jesus as lord......but in actuality, a production mill of "pfal class instructors" and allegiance to wierwille.
...
Twi is not "the true ministry" spreading the Word. The Scriptures shine the LIGHT of twi's idolatry and blinded allegiance and the fruit that it will bear.
God honors true ministries, not corporate structures.
The thing that is weird about all this - & I agree with everything that's been said basically ("basically," one of Wierwille's favorite words. If you say "basically," you can follow it with anything you want, & your have CYA :) ); heck, I posted some of it - is that I have to say that I still think that I saw VPW do some snappy (what was snappy to me, & I don't think I was fooled by a dog & pony show - not that there wasn't a dog & pony show going on) things spiritually.
Another thing: When I was on the rez, we were studying Ephesians (hi all you 5th Corps, 1st Recognized Corps, 1st Special Corps, 1st Family Corps - they had a real hard time categorizing a lot of us didn't they?), & I have to say that I gained a fairly comprehensive (if somewhat surface; hmm, somewhat surface - is there such a thing as a surface comprehensive understanding?) understanding of Ephesians. Now, a lot of that understanding, no doubt, came about because I was reading the whole book three times a day for a whole year as part of the program (well, pretty much once a day, twice quite a bit, three times sometimes - were we really reading the thing three times a day?)
Anyway, VP said later that if we did that, we would gain an understanding of what the revelation was trying to convey, AND THAT would enable us to understand all the other church epistles much more readily - that a deep understanding of any one church epistle would bring that benefit.
I think that happened. That really seems to be a bad move for the adversary - if indeed, Wierwille was the adversary's man from the gate to screw up the move of the Word as has been posited on this thread.
Not that I don't believe that insight - as I said I basically go along with everything that has been posted here so far.
Isn't that a conundrum?
I'm thinking that we're all God's men & women (God says so, doesn't he), & we're all the adversary's people (he'll take whatever we still give him, & leverage it as far as he can).
Betcha Solomon has something to say about this, but I know that he says that there is nothing better than that a man should eat & drink... It is the gift of God. And dinners ready.
I'm thinking that we're all God's men & women (God says so, doesn't he), & we're all the adversary's people (he'll take whatever we still give him, & leverage it as far as he can)....
Still putting it together,
Tomo
Yeah, me too ... I'm just wonderin' if the sex and drugs weren't an integral part of the back to back film classes ... ya know? My long hair twig guy said smokin was wrong ... so was it vp that was the leaven ... or the end of the sex and drugs (covertly switched to behind the scenes sex and alcohol) that was the "leaven". You know what I'm sayin'?
Just a little thought ... I don't know ... I love sincere people :)
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Ham
If so, I hope it is far more encompassing.. than some little movement in California, or New York..
Tom
Wow, well here’s what I see, and what I think I’m seeing. As always, God has the big picture. I’m just following the tracks the best I can. Sunesis: “…does it seem to you, less people are getting b
geisha779
Feel better? Maybe you are a bit confused....a church may MEET in a building.....but, it is a group of Christians who meet together in fellowship around the Lord. I wear jeans to church and rarely "d
way2much
Hello all.
Just a hypothetical question, but after reading these threads has it ever ocurred to anybody that maybe VP was the adversaries means of squelching this movement? Just a thought. I got in in 1974 and never knew any of this stuff. Forutunately I met my wife in the ministry and we both realized things weren't right in 1981 and left.
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shortfuse
Was Jim's book ever published?
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TheEvan
Interesting analysis, Sunesis.
I think VP used these men in just the way you say. Whether that was his intention from the start it's hard to say, but I'll agree VP was ever the wolf.
I read a book on the nascent Jesus movement & the "House of Acts", that rambling Victorian house in Novato that morphed into a Way phenomenon. Heefner & Doop are mentioned. Very interesting.
Now whether the Jesus movement was a true revival or not (at least on the scale you present), I'm not sure. But I have no doubts those men were genuine & sincere.
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rascal
Wow Way2much...now THAT is an interesting thought.
I have always wonder what great good might have been accomplished in the name of God had all of our selfless efforts, the millions of man hours of labor, millions of dollars, millions of hours of prayer not been sucked into serving a few evil men.
I think that Sunesis is right....it would seem that what was good and attracted people to twi was due directly to other mens ministries.... VPW just hijacked them for his own illicit purposes.
I knew that his ministry interupted and derailed many individual lives, but I never thought of it interfering with an entire movement :(
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sprawled out
there's a lot to that, i think. certainly, a lot of twi's appeal to younger people is due to what they co-opted from these movements. i can't imagine many of us would've been able to stomach the earlier incarnation--when they were still all vesper chimes churchy, prayed in king james english (with "thee"s and "thou"s), etc.
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GrouchoMarxJr
When you fit all the pieces together (like a jigsaw puzzle), the picture that emerges is one of VP Wierwille with horns on his head...
Looking at how Veepee hijacked the ministries of Doop and Heefner through manipulation, declaring himself in charge and grabbing all the money...
combine that with how he stole the works of BG Leonard and others...
You got a guy who stole the academics of other men, and then stole the practical ministries of the Jesus movement...got himself a "Dr.'s degree" through a phoney mail order "college" and then set himself up as the MOG!
...and through it all he was a drunk and an adulterer...
He was a conman and a grifter of the first degree. It was always about self glory and money for him...he couldn't have done any of it without being a ruthless liar and thief.
...and this is the guy that Mike and others STILL put up on a pedestal...ouch!
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way2much
Rascal, it is an interesting thought tho isn't it? VP was able to gather all of the best on both coasts and stick the headquarters for the movement out in the middle of nowhere in the midwest. When I got in in 1974 it was all hugs, kisses and the folks I was around were sincere about god, jesus and moving the word. Not to long after tho came the forced witnessing at malls, door to door knocking and general stuff that I just didn't feel comfortable with. I was in Raleigh NC at the time and spent lots of time at the way home in Greenville. I was living in the Raleigh way home when I met my wife. I met her at a backyard party we were giving for the area believers and she had been in the ministry for about a year before me. She immediately caught my eye and we were married by Rev Randy An*der**son in 1977. Been married 29 years the 9th of July. I've always said that was one of the few things that I got out of the ministry that I am really thankful for. John Sch*ien*height(sp) was leading the way home and the teachings were very good. That was a good time! But it quickly fell into something that I didn't want to be a part of and my wife felt the same. We came to hear the word taught, not worship some dude on a stage. Once the way corp hit town everything changed. In 1976 I was still living in the way home and Richard Mar**MOr blew into town with his wife and family, driving a brand new BMW that lord knows who paid for. First thing he did was kick me and a couple of my buddies out of the way home so that he would have a place to live. Thats what really ....ed me off and started my exit out the door. I was just too young, stupid and didn't have the B a ll s
to stand up to him. Things would be different now. Now back into lurkdom.
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Sunesis
Waytomuch - yes, that thought had crossed my mind :)
I see, looking back in hindsight, where VP, in order to be successful, hijacked two ministries. The first, was B.G. Leonard's - he stole his class, almost word for word, charts, etc. This class gave him a product to sell.
The second, was his going to CA, and finding men who would win the youth for him. He knew he never could. VP could be very loving and charismatic and kind to people when he wanted something or their allegiance. I do not fault Doop or Heefner at all. They heard the Word in PFAL, which was Leonard's teaching and realized this was a great way to get the message out. It was a tool for them to spread the Word.
All of the members in TWI were a direct result of Doop and Heefner. As we kids moved, we told others. The hippie kids got in TWI because of these two in CA and NY, some travelled to Kansas and other states - over a couple of years it moved out all over the country. Remember, the sixties and early '70s was a time of wandering, hitchhiking youth all over the place, a nomadic generation.
Once Doop and Heefner were gone, you never had quite the explosion of the early years. Yes, people were won for a while after, mostly by men who had been with Doop and Heefner, but that leveled off, the explosiveness was lost. Once VP took the reigns it became rule oriented. I remember I was sorely disappointed in '71 when I was told I couldn't fellowship in Rye anymore, I now had to go to Larchmont fellowships. All of a sudden, the go where you want, fellowship with whoever, was being taken away. The rules started coming down, many of us started drifting away. It started becoming corporate under VPs rule - and I believe he knew exactly what he was doing, since, with the expulsion of Doop and Heefner, it was now "his" ministry.
Yes, I have wondered what would have happened if VP hadn't stuck his finger in the pie and siphoned off, maybe one-third of the movement to himself.
He would have been a little preacher on a cornfield with a handful of followers. VP could never have attracted the hippie youth people by himself. Never in a million years.
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way2much
Back out of lurkdom for a second. Sunesis I couldn't agree with you more. I also think that the reason we were encouraged to get an education in the early years is because it provided them with an easily accessible and very vulnerable crop from which to harvest. I am very thankful that I stayed in school and had something to do after I decided to leave. And like you say about vp, he certainly didn't have any 'charisma' that I saw. I saw him as an elderly man who seemed to know the word and was willing to share it with me. And thats all I saw him as... little did I know what hid beneath. When I got fed up enough to leave I had just had way 2 much. Hence my monikor. Without doop, heefner and leonard Vp would have been nothing. He just lucked into a generation of freespirited, trusting and loving youngsters searching for answers and truth. But I do wonder tho how much was luck. He did manage to kill off alot of the truth that existed and today is pretty much buried. I wonder if a generation of the same spirit will ever arise again. I certainly don't see it in the kids of today. As they say.... timing is everything..
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sprawled out
wish i knew more about what exactly bg leonard taught (not enough to pay for it!), but it looks to me like he had plenty of his own goofiness. on his ministry's ugly mess of a website, i found this statement:
"The King James Version of the Bible is the only Authorized and God-appointed translation of the Bible."
hello?
earth to bg...this is rationality calling.
oh, and i like this one, too, from the foreward of his "gifts of the spirit" book:
"One day God spoke to me. "If thou wilt wait patiently before me, I will give thee the revelation concerning that which is written in my Word touching these things; the revelation my people need to bring them out of their chaos and confusion."
god speaks in king james english? i'm sorry, but bg either was full of it, or a few bricks shy of a full load--why in hell would god speak to a 20th-century man in 17th-century english?
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dmiller
Worthy of being repeated. Thank you way2much.
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T-Bone
Welome to Grease Spot, Way2much...And thanks for that very, very, very, exceeding abundantly interesting post...I think you might have something there!!!
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dmiller
Sunesis -- thanks soooo much for your input! (You too, way2much)
It adds volumes of understanding.
"Over-by-then". I got *in* in '75 also. Had anyone told me it was *over* when I was just starting,
I'd have told them they were nuts. Not now. :(
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frickafrack
Does anyone know how/why Jim and Judy were at Rome City as staff in the mid 80's?
this topic and that question prompted my registering here, I'm very curious now.
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jardinero
Welcome Frickafrack ~
A few of us here on this board were living at RC from 84-86 and they were not on staff then. After POP, I would doubt they even would have been welcome, so my guess it had to be pre-84 (if at all), as VP was spending more and more time at RC after being a persona non grata at HQ after lcm took over the reigns. Hope someone else knows.
J.
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frickafrack
Thanks for the welcome!
It was Way year 86-87, I was Family Corps and Jim was in charge of grounds, my wife worked with him and I think Judy was in charge of housekeeping. Jim used to hang out with us in the second floor lobby at night after meetings, some of the secret smoking corps would get a cigarette from him, Camel filters, if memory serves.
He was very cool and non-religous/legalistic, still wondering how he wound up back there.
Jim, if your still reading, your manner was always graceful and a blessing. I've tried to emulate that "vibe", I think I've succeeded, I sincerely hope you are well!
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jardinero
Well, I wasn't there in 86-87 - - but could it be you are thinking of Jim and M*rjorie Plunk*tt???
J.
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rhino
Maybe it's over as soon as one starts letting someone else tell them what to believe. Perhaps those guys had some genuine stuff going on and it was ground to a halt by vp and company. But I don't remember anything from those guys, just VP and the local guys. But it was the local long hair guy that initiated things I guess ... perhaps it was his inspiration from the earlier era that got it going at U of IL. Hmmmmmm :)
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Tom
I think that when people say it was over - at least this is what I think - that refers to the fact that the leaven was in, & it was only a matter of time till the whole was leavened.
You're definitely right about the numbers going higher between about '75 & '80, but a lot of that movement was generated from the hearts of people that wanted to see what happened in the early '70's happen again.
And you're also correct that as the leaven was posited first in the center, HQ, it moved further and farther out from there (that is both in the expansion and the degree of the iron legalism - the leaven).
But the increase that was happening in the early '70's was never duplicated. We were all over bars & parties - I mean sometimes we took them over. I remember a young lady at fellowship said that she believed we should all go to this apartment where she had visited the night before where people were all tripping on LSD - that she thought there would be fruit there. We went there a couple of times. The second night, I told everyone at the party what we were all into - a short nutshell version of the giving of holy spirit. The girl who said we should go there spoke in tongues & interpreted (it was cool - I knew in my spirit that she would - it was sweet working with people in a synched up relationship like that). A guy on the couch sitting next to her, tripping, went into convulsions, & she ministered to him. He stopped convulsing, & went to sleep as she was ministering. Then I spoke in tongues and interpreted. Then one of the tripping partiers spoke in tongues and interpreted - & I have to tell you, the messages were amazing - God was there working with us - no boring messages. In Long Island, we had PDSTRO playing in bars. They played at parks - impromptu. I mean we knew they were going to play, but no one else did. We had what we called guerilla theater that we also did impromptu whether in a park or a college student center.
You needed 30 new students to have a film class. From the time there were like, I don't know, 20-30 people in fellowship, for over a year, we ran film classes back to back. Sometimes in the beginning, there were more new students than grads.
By the time the years between '75 & '80 came around, it should have exploded in a manner - well, the increase in numbers that was seen then was - I'm sorry, I'm lost for words here. stupid analogy - it was like a rocket ship exploding off the launch pad on the way to Mars, having the navigation system malfunction, and screeching to a halt in the desert while the people in the desert looked on & said, "Wow, that was cool!" Compared to what would have happened had the ship went where it was supposed to - my God, who knows.
Not to discredit the true experiences of those who walked with God in that desert or before or after.
But that's what I think.
Future hasn't happened yet, & the fat lady hasn't sung.
Tom
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skyrider
Yes, I too see that B.G. Leonard's class cataputed wierwille's reach beyond a corner in ohio. Even mrs. wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, spells this out.
And, in hindsight...........IMO the corps program was a wierwille-engraved attempt at "the school of tyrannus" with self-serving agendas of control and manipulation. With strong emphasis of pfal indoctrination, dale carnegie principles, self-improvement, and wierwille-based corps principles.....the corps program was rooted on stony ground. Only lip service to God and Jesus as lord......but in actuality, a production mill of "pfal class instructors" and allegiance to wierwille.
Martindale is the epitome of one who sold out to wierwille doctrine.
Twi is not "the true ministry" spreading the Word. The Scriptures shine the LIGHT of twi's idolatry and blinded allegiance and the fruit that it will bear.
God honors true ministries, not corporate structures.
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MountainTopCO
This is a great thread. This is why I keep coming back to GSpot. I love history and believe that gaining an historical perspective on things is the only way to fully understand them. I got involved in TWI in 1982. There was still an aspect of TWI that reflected this freedom ( this is what drew me to TWI) but it continually got ratcheted down and then squelched by the end of the 80’s or beginning of the 90’s.
Jim, I await with great eagerness for you to inform us more about your book and how it can be purchased.
I don’t visit GSpot all the time so I hope Pawtuckett will send out an all-mailing when the book is available and how to purchase it.
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Tom
The thing that is weird about all this - & I agree with everything that's been said basically ("basically," one of Wierwille's favorite words. If you say "basically," you can follow it with anything you want, & your have CYA :) ); heck, I posted some of it - is that I have to say that I still think that I saw VPW do some snappy (what was snappy to me, & I don't think I was fooled by a dog & pony show - not that there wasn't a dog & pony show going on) things spiritually.
Another thing: When I was on the rez, we were studying Ephesians (hi all you 5th Corps, 1st Recognized Corps, 1st Special Corps, 1st Family Corps - they had a real hard time categorizing a lot of us didn't they?), & I have to say that I gained a fairly comprehensive (if somewhat surface; hmm, somewhat surface - is there such a thing as a surface comprehensive understanding?) understanding of Ephesians. Now, a lot of that understanding, no doubt, came about because I was reading the whole book three times a day for a whole year as part of the program (well, pretty much once a day, twice quite a bit, three times sometimes - were we really reading the thing three times a day?)
Anyway, VP said later that if we did that, we would gain an understanding of what the revelation was trying to convey, AND THAT would enable us to understand all the other church epistles much more readily - that a deep understanding of any one church epistle would bring that benefit.
I think that happened. That really seems to be a bad move for the adversary - if indeed, Wierwille was the adversary's man from the gate to screw up the move of the Word as has been posited on this thread.
Not that I don't believe that insight - as I said I basically go along with everything that has been posted here so far.
Isn't that a conundrum?
I'm thinking that we're all God's men & women (God says so, doesn't he), & we're all the adversary's people (he'll take whatever we still give him, & leverage it as far as he can).
Betcha Solomon has something to say about this, but I know that he says that there is nothing better than that a man should eat & drink... It is the gift of God. And dinners ready.
Still putting it together,
Tomo
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excathedra
hafta catch up with this thread still
but i have to say litwin i'm so glad it's summer !!!!!!!!!
love you
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rhino
Yeah, me too ... I'm just wonderin' if the sex and drugs weren't an integral part of the back to back film classes ... ya know? My long hair twig guy said smokin was wrong ... so was it vp that was the leaven ... or the end of the sex and drugs (covertly switched to behind the scenes sex and alcohol) that was the "leaven". You know what I'm sayin'?
Just a little thought ... I don't know ... I love sincere people :)
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