“Galen said very little about child molesting, most of his remarks concerned adult men (at least sexually adult around 18 at least). What he said about these men is true.”
“Men are turned on by sight.”
Some would obviously want documentation to prove this point. I know that I have heard it many times, I would imagine that it has been written about.
“... but if there is something they see, some young thing, that is appealing they are likely to get turned on. And by "some young thing' I don't mean a child.”
From conversation this response is often what is being refered to when someone says “red-blooded male”.
“When men get aroused, it's not something they can control. It is an automatic physiological response to what their eyes see. Some men are much more prone to this than others,”
I agree that it is a ‘seemingly’ automatic response. From my own observation it does not appear to ‘work’ in all men. And in others [myself included] it can be controlled. I don’t not agree that it is a fully ‘automatic’ response, as I believe that there are times when a guy can focus on something and NOT get the automatic response. Or is able to ‘cancel’ it.
Consider the doctor who examines a buxom young lady, if he can maintain ‘professionalism’.
“In the whole realm of mammals, all males will go for the youngest healthiest female because that way they have the greatest opportunity for their offspring to survive and be born. That is pure biology. I know we are much more than biological creatures, but we cannot escape the features that are built into our bodies, so it is normal and natural for men to be attracted to younger women. As men mature, not necessarily age-wise, they are less inclined to follow their physiology and behave in a more "civilized" fashion.”
I do agree. Which is why in taking this issue to the Word, we end up looking closer at ‘adultery’.
Our society has changed and modified itself.
Historically X---X was a common and accepted thing. The Bible makes allowances to for even in The Law. Today we say that X---X is wrong, does that make it a sin, or just illegal?
X---X could be substituted for many things: slavery, child-wives, tyrannical kingdoms, Honouring religious holy-days. Even quarantine procedures: once upon a time AIDs would have been reason for quarantining, today we are too sensitive to people’s feelings to quarantine them for such a communicable and deadly disease.
Even a young girl must be under someone’s household making violating her a sin against her father. And what sin would that be?
“child-molesting” is not a phrase found within the Biblical text, did people have sex with what we would say were children? Most certainly, absolutely. Does Leviticus say it is a sin? We would have to look at whose household the girl is under and whether the man has rights to her.
“Young women do not understand this erection response.”
I would tend to agree with this statement.
“They are just as interested in having sex as men are,”
I would have to take your word for this. I do not know. From my limited experience and reading on the subject it seems that often females have other motives behind what appears as a male ‘sex drive’.
“. . . ROTC . . . “
Men who can and do work in High-schools, without any appearance of misbehavior and under purely professional demeanors; are truly men to be respected.
“Galen, forgive me if I've embarrassed you, that was not my intention. It just seemed to me that some people either forgot about the sight-response thing or ignored it...and I know very few people really know what ROTC treaining in a high school really involves. I just don't want anyone to have an excuse to think ill of you.”
Nothing to forgive, you are a joy as always. Bless you and your kindness.
“No Galen, not all men are attracted to teenage girls. Are the girls pretty? You bet they are...but there is a HUGE difference between finding a girl attractive and being attracted to her. Every now and then I enjoy eating a good apple, but I am never tempted to pick an unripe one off the tree...and of course there is a difference between a 16 year old and an 8 year old...I think we all know the difference between a child and someone who can pass a fake ID...My concern is for children. To protect them from the monsters that stalk this earth...and if that means putting up posters in public, then lets make the posters big.”
Perhaps I have spent too many years, working and living among submariners.
From my observaton, experience and culture; perhaps not ALL men, but many if not the majority.
“Golly gee whiz, I KNOW about the male arousal thing! But I do think it starts between the ears.”
Well there is a physical arousal. And there is a mental one, but the mental one needs to be controlled. For some that control is difficult, perhaps for others it is not.
“I never thought for one minute that Galen was encouraging or condoning child sexual abuse.”
Such certainly never entered my mind. [did it sound like I was condoning it?
“But I don't agree with his post, okay? It's just my opinion, based on what I've seen happen to more than one child.”
“What he is saying is that you know in yourself whether or not you are capable of being a child molester. That is, if you take an honest look at yourself, can you say that you would not be a child molester? In my case the answer is: I could not be a child molester. Not everyone can answer honestly that way.”
I admit that from my own behavior, at one time in my life, I could have been arrested for statutory rape [having sex with an under-age girl]. I could have been convicted and I could possibly be out of prison today as an ex-con rapist, or even child-molester. I certainly would be on these “sex offender” lists.
That did not happen to me. Her parents liked me, and realistically they encouraged her seeing me. But it does not change that fact that I violated the law of the land. And I consider such each time that I read about a rapist, or a child-molester.
“He's NOT saying that everyone is capable of being child molesters.”
I don’t think that I could be capable of anything like that with a pre-pubescent female. But from my own history, I know that post-pubescent ladies I do find attractive.
“He IS saying "take an honest look at yourself".”
I think, I believe, I know; that there are far more out there, than are on any list of “sex offenders”.
“Steve, I would welcome clarification from Galen....I find it repulsive for him to intimate that ANY normal adult would tolerate, much less consider child molestation if only we were simply *honest*”
So much you make a lot of sense about...then you go right into stereotyping."
I am sorry, exactly what stereotype did I violate?
I do not mean to be argumentative here, just asking. I did not intend to step on your toes.
Are you talking about the single-family homne that I mentioned? Heather is a 27 year old mother, with a 12 year old daughter and a 10 year old son. She is single, she is out of work, she routinely stays out all night bar-hopping, She does not hold a full-time job. She has had numerous part-time jobs, but to my knowledge she rarely holds any given job for more than a week. Her 12 year old daughter does 'hope' to drive a convertible at 16 without a blouse on so that she can 'tease' the boys and make them 'chase' her. [those were her own words].
This is not a stereotype, these are my neighbors.
When I go to foster-parent support-group meetings [We jsut got home from one as I type this post], other foster-parents work routinely with very similar homes as this.
We discussed this tonight at our support-group. Many foster-families work with the ‘dysfunctional’ bio-family members.
“. . . it is a learned behaviour and it is abosolutly BOTH FEMALE and male, . . . “
In a fairly small percentage, some of the foster-children in the system are of this variety. The ‘sexual-predator’s. Locally we have seen them diagnosed as young as 8 years old. They have been so abused, that even after removal to better foster-homes and therapy, a few years later and they will be attacking other children. But all is a show of ‘love’. And of course they can not be diagnosed until after they have assaulted another child.
I have been amazed at how many sexual predators we have that are under 12 years old.
Maybe all those centuries ago, isolated penal colonies weren't such a bad idea.
Sure beats a picture posted in a post office somewhere. Lot's of good points being made here, and unfortunately a lot from personal experience.
In my immediate neighborhood, there are 8 or 9 "level 3" sex offenders living in various houses amongst all the rest of the residents of the area. I don't know if the housing is "subsidized" by the state, but I suspect so. All are men, who have been caught previously, were tried and convicted, have served their time, and are now "deemed fit for return to society" by the local law enforcement.
Needless to say, their "relocation" to a highly populated area (mine --- replete with families, single mothers, and other "vulnerables", was not gone un-noticed, and public meetings were held in each and every "re-location" case, so that the community was aware of who was moving in, and where.
Don't know about all of your various areas, but here -- "level 3" means more than likely to repeat. One of those "known to repeat" level 3 offenders ( a convicted, time served, and released pedophile) was housed 1 1/2 blocks from an elementary school (again -- I am assuming), by the state. Public outcry was so vociferous and outraged, he was moved immediately -- though still within the range of children.
I don't pretend to know all the answers, nor will I make any assumptions other than --- I think Krys is right about the isolated colonies, though that may not be plausible in today's society, and even if it were -- it would only apply to those caught, therefore not dealing with the "rest of the iceberg" that is hidden beneath the surface.
Pictures on a wall somewhere are great, but after a while, one gets used to them, and they lose their significance (imo). Holding the informational meetings we had help also, yet they fade in significance as time passes also. Our neighborhood "watch committee" makes it a point to monitor these "malefactors" (is that too kind a word?), as well as the streets in general -- and so far -- nothing detrimental has happend.
Again -- I realize that this only deals with the known offenders, and not the rest. Dealing with the "hidden factor" is beyond my expertise. From our experience here, being vocal means everything -- and the louder, the better. I know it is not always easy to be "vocal", but when it happens, a bit more of the iceberg is exposed, and we can chip away at it, bit by bit.
I understand that what you see and hear about the most is what you have described.
Have you ever considered that you see a microcosm of what really is?
Me, my sister and my brother were not in the system...we would have never been in a foster home. No social workers were looking in on our well-being, no judges were giving orders for our parents to get therapy, not one hint of the system.
We were not the only ones in our neighborhood, either...nor in our schools.
The system gets ahold of the types of families you describe because these families do not have the money to keep things in the private sector.
I do not think that you are espousing pedophilia.
I do wonder, however, if you have teenaged daughters. If so, I cannot understand your position.
Maybe that's just it: I don't understand what you're saying.
Are you saying that at a certain age it is no longer abuse, but most probably is just 'natural'?
Yeah...it's hard to know how to handle this situation.
Scapegoating the few knowns does not address the problem...just relieves the vindictive natures of some people.
A few years ago we had a halfway house move in kitty-corner from us. We were very nervous because the house is right on the path the elementary school children use to get to and from school...and the house is right across the street from a family of 8 children.
As soon as the guys started moving in, my husband went right up to the owner and talked to him about the concerns we and the neighbors had. My husband let the owner know that the neighborhood would keep a close eye on things.
The owner was understanding. He even said that he appreciated such involved neighbors.
Quite honestly, that halfway house has proven to be the best neighbors ever on that block. These guys live in a fish bowl. Their whole lives are open books into which the whole system is reading. There is no opportunity for these guys to mess up.
At least not in public. When they put up a privacy fence around the yard, the neighborhood nerves were rattled again.
We had a meeting with all of the children present to talk about how to stay safe. Not just from the guys in the halfway house, but from all possible predators. We were very clear about not going inside a privacy fence or a house or a garage or going anywhere with anybody. We also set up code words for the children to learn so that they would know if their parents had sent someone or not. We did lots of safety things with the kids.
It was very good for all in involved. If that halfway house had never been there, I don't think that many of the parents would have known how to help their children stay safe.
The guys in that halfway house are still very good neighbors. They, in fact, are the first ones to volunteer their labor and efforts for any neighborhood improvement project.
I believe in halfway houses. However, I do not believe in clumping them together. There is one neighborhood just a few blocks from ours that has 7 halfway houses in 2 blocks. There is nothing but problems.
I think that grouping them all together leads to an 'us v them' mentality...and stuff happens.
I dunno.
As you have pointed out, these things deal only with those who are caught.
I was married at the age of 16 and had dated mu husband for almost two years, in the state of calif. you can marry an underage girl with her parents permission, I had a friend who married at 13 don't knoe if it lasted or not.
I don't beleive an 18 year old is a child molester for dating a 15-16 year old girl and I mean just dating if they are having sex together then I don't know especially if the girl is consenting. And if the parents allow thier girl to date a 18 year old then aren't they consenting? Hormones run amock at the age so they will probably expieriment a the very least.
As for genuine child molesters, pre puberty children boy or girl the guy should be hun by his ba!!s til they fall of and spend the rest of his life in prison.
“I understand that what you see and hear about the most is what you have described.
Have you ever considered that you see a microcosm of what really is? Me, my sister and my brother were not in the system...we would have never been in a foster home. No social workers were looking in on our well-being, no judges were giving orders for our parents to get therapy, not one hint of the system.”
What I hear you saying is that: I ‘see’ the issue existing within a microcosm or a minority of our society. Whereas In your opinion the majority of child molesters are outside of my knowledge. The difference you explain is due to income. [i.e. because these families do not have the money to keep things in the private sector.]
Could be,
I don’t really know anyone who is terribly wealthy. Mostly working-class: both among foster-families and otherwise.
It is my impression that most of the children that run through the state-controlled foster care system are lower-income to middle-income level families.
So perhaps, there does exist a large number of families out there who molest or neglect their children, but that they are too wealthy to come within the scope of DCF [Dept Children & Families, or whatever it is called in your particular state].
While the overall percentages [or ratios] of wealthy : middle-class : poor, do change and vary from region to region. It is my over-all impression that the wealthy are few. Whereas the middle-class and poor are in the majority.
“I do not think that you are espousing pedophilia.”
Thank you.
”I do wonder, however, if you have teenaged daughters. If so, I cannot understand your position.”
Our current foster-daughter is 11. She turns 12 this coming weekend.
”Are you saying that at a certain age it is no longer abuse, but most probably is just 'natural'?”
I think that abusive behavior is abusive behavior and should be treated as such. It often is taught to very young children who in turn perform abusive behavior to others [commonly anyone younger or smaller than themselves]. There are many varied forms of abusive behavior; sexual predators, bullies, sadists, etc. They can be seen as abusive spouses, controlling people, micro-managers, etc.
I don’t see any magic ‘line’ or demarcation that happens when someone turns 18, that suddenly turns them into an adult. One day they are a child and protected, and the next day they are an adult. Our society made this demarcation, and formed laws around it, building it up. Regardless of how sexually active a person is before or after this one day. Regardless of how they have progressed toward maturity: physically or behaviorally. We as a society have built this demarcation at an arbitrary age. If a person has physically developed and matured and puberty is behind them; and their behavior tends to suggest that they have entered into ‘adult’ sexual relationships, then calling them a ‘child’ is mis-leading.
I do agree with earlier cultures that did or still do, use formalized arranged marriages for people once they have reached this demarcation. Trying to find guidance for ‘dating’ from within the Scripture is difficult. Why? Because it really did not happen. Which is largely responsible for why we today have so much confusion and mis-understanding among single adults. There are no guidelines in existence, because as a group we are operating outside of Biblical guidelines.
Is it a disease when a [red-blooded] X---X sees a young [fully developed] X---X, and feels a sexual attraction? Either of these X---Xs could have been male or female.
No, I don’t think so, I think it is biology. Are we as humans, higher than dogs and cats? Sure. Should we be able to control ourselves and act ‘professionally’? Sure.
Does this mean that just because a cute young thing walks by that I have to sin in my mind? No.
Can my mind-body find her attractive without ‘fantasizing’ about having sex? Sure can.
If she is under 18 and I am over 18; am I now a pedophile? What if I am over 40? Now do I become a pedophile?
I do not fantasize about having sex with under-age females. In fact I generally don’t fantasize about sex outside of marriage at all. But that does not mean that I don’t see the young ladies around me. Or that I don’t see other men around me also looking at those young ladies. From what I can see, it appears fairly common among adult men, to notice and look at young ladies. From what I read here on GS, I would presume that it is not un-common among adult ladies as well. Are they all pedophiles? Are we all pedophiles?
I am certainly concerned about raising this daughter. I am concerned about her friends. Two years ago for Halloween a friend came over for a party that we were hosting, she was ‘costumed’ as a hooker. She was 10. Is that appropriate? I did not think so. But that also appears to be our society today.
I did put it on a money level, didn't I? Well, that's too broad a brush...and I know it. But what I was trying to point out is that there is a larger group that does not fall into the system...for one reason or another. Not telling or not being believed seems to be more common than being able to afford to hide the whole mess.
You bring up some very interesting points in all of your posts on this subject.
One of the most misunderstood aspects of childhood sexual abuse is that often the child finds the experience physically pleasurable. And if there is no other type of abuse going on, then the child also experiences emotional pleasure.
There are many cultures that believe the father is the person who should introduce his daughters to sexuality.
In our culture, that is taboo.
Should it be?
Your points about arranged marriages comes into play here, imo.
If a 12yo is going to be married to a 40yo, somebody had better teach her what to expect...and something needs to happen physically before she gets into the wedding bed...or there is going to be damage physically, mentally and emotionally.
Then there is the custom of waiting a year before the marriage is consummated. (I learned this in piffle, so I have no idea if it is real or not.) This custom would, imo, solve the issue of preparing a very young girl for sex with an adult male.
Taboos are usually based upon horror stories.
What about the stories that aren't so horrific?
One of the deepest shames for many victims of pedophilia is that the victim had natural arousal responses.
I don't know the answers here at all. I sometimes wonder if my dad hadn't been so mean and forceful, would I have felt so violated? I can't say for sure because it wasn't that way.
I do know that as an adult I've had one night encounters that were as loving and giving and respectful as anything I've experienced in marriage. I've also experienced rape.
Again, where is the line drawn?
As the mother of a daughter who got involved with a 23yo when she was 16yo, I know that his main goal was control. She married him because of her daughter. She divorced him 2 years later because of the abuse. He is now awaiting trial for illegal intercourse with a 12yo. My daughter was shocked at this. I was not. After all, he honed in on my daughter as a minor, why wouldn't he hone in on someone else's daughter as a minor?
But our society is duplicitous in these things.
A 16yo cannot legally vote, go into the military, work overtime, drink or smoke because they are considered too immature to make good decisions concerning these things. But they can 'consent' to sex and, naturally, to being a parent if that arises?
the ages of consent vary in the state for marriage and ALSO for consentual sex.
IN NY you can legaly have sex at the age of seventeen . YOU have the right of CONSENT to sex. at 16 or any other age it is assumed illegal(for the one having sex with you hence the coin "jail bait") regardless of how the 16 or under feels about it. the state presses the charge. it is sexual abuse of a minor child .
this is the law for both male and female. it isnt illegal for a minor o have sex it is illegal for a person 18 years and older to have sex with a minor. because the law states a minor is NOT allowed to consent . they can have sex with other minors and they can have sex with a person over 18 but the peron 18 or older can be charged with a crime.
Rape is a different charge all together.
In NY you can not legaly marry untill your 18 . you can not purchase a license or file a license to marry in NY untill BOTH are 18 unless a parent gets permission from the court to allow the minor child to marry. I suppose the money aspect of who is paying for these kids plays a large part of why the state needs to know and get involved.
In NY a parent is financial responsibile for a child till they reach the age of 21 regardless if they live at home or not UNLESS they are married which is a legal contract as well. the state is concerned a teen would get married and then unable to maintain a proper household and end up asking the state for money .
Incest is a whole different story all together many times even today incest is treated as a mental health family issues and dealt with in the family courts with conseling for the entire family as it is a mental health issue and a dysfunctional family issue as is most child abuse. the family courts focus is to keep the family together and repair the cycles that generate from these mental health issues such as incest. This is why foster care is sometimes needed while a family works on these issues , not just the evil man who had sex with the child every family meber now has the learned patterns and behaviours of the mental disease and more than likely will carry into their own families .
many incest victims stay within the family it is the goal of the court to "help" the situation by conseling and other interventions. ONLY IN very extreme cases with other conditions such as maybe drug use or physical abuse as well is a child removed for any length of time for just sexual abuse. IT is considered a mental health issue within the family and addressed as such for remedy. Yes some are also charged in criminal court it is a seperate court, and how the family works with the conseling and the family court system ( how much money and what type of lawyer you may have being a big factor) can influence how the charges are levied if at all.
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excathedra
it sure is, herb
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excathedra
does anyone here think it's okay for a relative, say an uncle, grandfather, father, to teach a young girl, how to "use" her body sexually ?
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Galen
Krysilis-
“Galen said very little about child molesting, most of his remarks concerned adult men (at least sexually adult around 18 at least). What he said about these men is true.”
“Men are turned on by sight.”
Some would obviously want documentation to prove this point. I know that I have heard it many times, I would imagine that it has been written about.
“... but if there is something they see, some young thing, that is appealing they are likely to get turned on. And by "some young thing' I don't mean a child.”
From conversation this response is often what is being refered to when someone says “red-blooded male”.
“When men get aroused, it's not something they can control. It is an automatic physiological response to what their eyes see. Some men are much more prone to this than others,”
I agree that it is a ‘seemingly’ automatic response. From my own observation it does not appear to ‘work’ in all men. And in others [myself included] it can be controlled. I don’t not agree that it is a fully ‘automatic’ response, as I believe that there are times when a guy can focus on something and NOT get the automatic response. Or is able to ‘cancel’ it.
Consider the doctor who examines a buxom young lady, if he can maintain ‘professionalism’.
“In the whole realm of mammals, all males will go for the youngest healthiest female because that way they have the greatest opportunity for their offspring to survive and be born. That is pure biology. I know we are much more than biological creatures, but we cannot escape the features that are built into our bodies, so it is normal and natural for men to be attracted to younger women. As men mature, not necessarily age-wise, they are less inclined to follow their physiology and behave in a more "civilized" fashion.”
I do agree. Which is why in taking this issue to the Word, we end up looking closer at ‘adultery’.
Our society has changed and modified itself.
Historically X---X was a common and accepted thing. The Bible makes allowances to for even in The Law. Today we say that X---X is wrong, does that make it a sin, or just illegal?
X---X could be substituted for many things: slavery, child-wives, tyrannical kingdoms, Honouring religious holy-days. Even quarantine procedures: once upon a time AIDs would have been reason for quarantining, today we are too sensitive to people’s feelings to quarantine them for such a communicable and deadly disease.
Even a young girl must be under someone’s household making violating her a sin against her father. And what sin would that be?
“child-molesting” is not a phrase found within the Biblical text, did people have sex with what we would say were children? Most certainly, absolutely. Does Leviticus say it is a sin? We would have to look at whose household the girl is under and whether the man has rights to her.
“Young women do not understand this erection response.”
I would tend to agree with this statement.
“They are just as interested in having sex as men are,”
I would have to take your word for this. I do not know. From my limited experience and reading on the subject it seems that often females have other motives behind what appears as a male ‘sex drive’.
“. . . ROTC . . . “
Men who can and do work in High-schools, without any appearance of misbehavior and under purely professional demeanors; are truly men to be respected.
“Galen, forgive me if I've embarrassed you, that was not my intention. It just seemed to me that some people either forgot about the sight-response thing or ignored it...and I know very few people really know what ROTC treaining in a high school really involves. I just don't want anyone to have an excuse to think ill of you.”
Nothing to forgive, you are a joy as always. Bless you and your kindness.
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Galen
UH-
“No Galen, not all men are attracted to teenage girls. Are the girls pretty? You bet they are...but there is a HUGE difference between finding a girl attractive and being attracted to her. Every now and then I enjoy eating a good apple, but I am never tempted to pick an unripe one off the tree...and of course there is a difference between a 16 year old and an 8 year old...I think we all know the difference between a child and someone who can pass a fake ID...My concern is for children. To protect them from the monsters that stalk this earth...and if that means putting up posters in public, then lets make the posters big.”
Perhaps I have spent too many years, working and living among submariners.
From my observaton, experience and culture; perhaps not ALL men, but many if not the majority.
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Galen
WG-
“Golly gee whiz, I KNOW about the male arousal thing! But I do think it starts between the ears.”
Well there is a physical arousal. And there is a mental one, but the mental one needs to be controlled. For some that control is difficult, perhaps for others it is not.
“I never thought for one minute that Galen was encouraging or condoning child sexual abuse.”
Such certainly never entered my mind. [did it sound like I was condoning it?
“But I don't agree with his post, okay? It's just my opinion, based on what I've seen happen to more than one child.”
Okay.
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Galen
Steve-
“He may have phrased it poorly.”
Gee, could be. I must have upset someone.
“What he is saying is that you know in yourself whether or not you are capable of being a child molester. That is, if you take an honest look at yourself, can you say that you would not be a child molester? In my case the answer is: I could not be a child molester. Not everyone can answer honestly that way.”
I admit that from my own behavior, at one time in my life, I could have been arrested for statutory rape [having sex with an under-age girl]. I could have been convicted and I could possibly be out of prison today as an ex-con rapist, or even child-molester. I certainly would be on these “sex offender” lists.
That did not happen to me. Her parents liked me, and realistically they encouraged her seeing me. But it does not change that fact that I violated the law of the land. And I consider such each time that I read about a rapist, or a child-molester.
“He's NOT saying that everyone is capable of being child molesters.”
I don’t think that I could be capable of anything like that with a pre-pubescent female. But from my own history, I know that post-pubescent ladies I do find attractive.
“He IS saying "take an honest look at yourself".”
I think, I believe, I know; that there are far more out there, than are on any list of “sex offenders”.
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Galen
Rascal-
“Steve, I would welcome clarification from Galen....I find it repulsive for him to intimate that ANY normal adult would tolerate, much less consider child molestation if only we were simply *honest*”
I apologize.
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Galen
CoolWaters:
"Galen,
OK.
So much you make a lot of sense about...then you go right into stereotyping."
I am sorry, exactly what stereotype did I violate?
I do not mean to be argumentative here, just asking. I did not intend to step on your toes.
Are you talking about the single-family homne that I mentioned? Heather is a 27 year old mother, with a 12 year old daughter and a 10 year old son. She is single, she is out of work, she routinely stays out all night bar-hopping, She does not hold a full-time job. She has had numerous part-time jobs, but to my knowledge she rarely holds any given job for more than a week. Her 12 year old daughter does 'hope' to drive a convertible at 16 without a blouse on so that she can 'tease' the boys and make them 'chase' her. [those were her own words].
This is not a stereotype, these are my neighbors.
When I go to foster-parent support-group meetings [We jsut got home from one as I type this post], other foster-parents work routinely with very similar homes as this.
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Galen
excathedra:
"does anyone here think it's okay for a relative, say an uncle, grandfather, father, to teach a young girl, how to "use" her body sexually ?"
No
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excathedra
or were you trying to say you don't have the time either ?
(meant with a regular voice, not a mean one)
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Galen
MJ-
“the cycle of abuse continues . . . .”
Very well documented.
We discussed this tonight at our support-group. Many foster-families work with the ‘dysfunctional’ bio-family members.
“. . . it is a learned behaviour and it is abosolutly BOTH FEMALE and male, . . . “
In a fairly small percentage, some of the foster-children in the system are of this variety. The ‘sexual-predator’s. Locally we have seen them diagnosed as young as 8 years old. They have been so abused, that even after removal to better foster-homes and therapy, a few years later and they will be attacking other children. But all is a show of ‘love’. And of course they can not be diagnosed until after they have assaulted another child.
I have been amazed at how many sexual predators we have that are under 12 years old.
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Galen
excathedra:
"or were you trying to say you don't have the time either"
For you I would attempt to find the time.
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dmiller
Sure beats a picture posted in a post office somewhere. Lot's of good points being made here, and unfortunately a lot from personal experience.
In my immediate neighborhood, there are 8 or 9 "level 3" sex offenders living in various houses amongst all the rest of the residents of the area. I don't know if the housing is "subsidized" by the state, but I suspect so. All are men, who have been caught previously, were tried and convicted, have served their time, and are now "deemed fit for return to society" by the local law enforcement.
Needless to say, their "relocation" to a highly populated area (mine --- replete with families, single mothers, and other "vulnerables", was not gone un-noticed, and public meetings were held in each and every "re-location" case, so that the community was aware of who was moving in, and where.
Don't know about all of your various areas, but here -- "level 3" means more than likely to repeat. One of those "known to repeat" level 3 offenders ( a convicted, time served, and released pedophile) was housed 1 1/2 blocks from an elementary school (again -- I am assuming), by the state. Public outcry was so vociferous and outraged, he was moved immediately -- though still within the range of children.
I don't pretend to know all the answers, nor will I make any assumptions other than --- I think Krys is right about the isolated colonies, though that may not be plausible in today's society, and even if it were -- it would only apply to those caught, therefore not dealing with the "rest of the iceberg" that is hidden beneath the surface.
Pictures on a wall somewhere are great, but after a while, one gets used to them, and they lose their significance (imo). Holding the informational meetings we had help also, yet they fade in significance as time passes also. Our neighborhood "watch committee" makes it a point to monitor these "malefactors" (is that too kind a word?), as well as the streets in general -- and so far -- nothing detrimental has happend.
Again -- I realize that this only deals with the known offenders, and not the rest. Dealing with the "hidden factor" is beyond my expertise. From our experience here, being vocal means everything -- and the louder, the better. I know it is not always easy to be "vocal", but when it happens, a bit more of the iceberg is exposed, and we can chip away at it, bit by bit.
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CoolWaters
Galen,
I understand that what you see and hear about the most is what you have described.
Have you ever considered that you see a microcosm of what really is?
Me, my sister and my brother were not in the system...we would have never been in a foster home. No social workers were looking in on our well-being, no judges were giving orders for our parents to get therapy, not one hint of the system.
We were not the only ones in our neighborhood, either...nor in our schools.
The system gets ahold of the types of families you describe because these families do not have the money to keep things in the private sector.
I do not think that you are espousing pedophilia.
I do wonder, however, if you have teenaged daughters. If so, I cannot understand your position.
Maybe that's just it: I don't understand what you're saying.
Are you saying that at a certain age it is no longer abuse, but most probably is just 'natural'?
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CoolWaters
dmiller,
Yeah...it's hard to know how to handle this situation.
Scapegoating the few knowns does not address the problem...just relieves the vindictive natures of some people.
A few years ago we had a halfway house move in kitty-corner from us. We were very nervous because the house is right on the path the elementary school children use to get to and from school...and the house is right across the street from a family of 8 children.
As soon as the guys started moving in, my husband went right up to the owner and talked to him about the concerns we and the neighbors had. My husband let the owner know that the neighborhood would keep a close eye on things.
The owner was understanding. He even said that he appreciated such involved neighbors.
Quite honestly, that halfway house has proven to be the best neighbors ever on that block. These guys live in a fish bowl. Their whole lives are open books into which the whole system is reading. There is no opportunity for these guys to mess up.
At least not in public. When they put up a privacy fence around the yard, the neighborhood nerves were rattled again.
We had a meeting with all of the children present to talk about how to stay safe. Not just from the guys in the halfway house, but from all possible predators. We were very clear about not going inside a privacy fence or a house or a garage or going anywhere with anybody. We also set up code words for the children to learn so that they would know if their parents had sent someone or not. We did lots of safety things with the kids.
It was very good for all in involved. If that halfway house had never been there, I don't think that many of the parents would have known how to help their children stay safe.
The guys in that halfway house are still very good neighbors. They, in fact, are the first ones to volunteer their labor and efforts for any neighborhood improvement project.
I believe in halfway houses. However, I do not believe in clumping them together. There is one neighborhood just a few blocks from ours that has 7 halfway houses in 2 blocks. There is nothing but problems.
I think that grouping them all together leads to an 'us v them' mentality...and stuff happens.
I dunno.
As you have pointed out, these things deal only with those who are caught.
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wyteduv58
I was married at the age of 16 and had dated mu husband for almost two years, in the state of calif. you can marry an underage girl with her parents permission, I had a friend who married at 13 don't knoe if it lasted or not.
I don't beleive an 18 year old is a child molester for dating a 15-16 year old girl and I mean just dating if they are having sex together then I don't know especially if the girl is consenting. And if the parents allow thier girl to date a 18 year old then aren't they consenting? Hormones run amock at the age so they will probably expieriment a the very least.
As for genuine child molesters, pre puberty children boy or girl the guy should be hun by his ba!!s til they fall of and spend the rest of his life in prison.
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Galen
CW-
“I understand that what you see and hear about the most is what you have described.
Have you ever considered that you see a microcosm of what really is? Me, my sister and my brother were not in the system...we would have never been in a foster home. No social workers were looking in on our well-being, no judges were giving orders for our parents to get therapy, not one hint of the system.”
What I hear you saying is that: I ‘see’ the issue existing within a microcosm or a minority of our society. Whereas In your opinion the majority of child molesters are outside of my knowledge. The difference you explain is due to income. [i.e. because these families do not have the money to keep things in the private sector.]
Could be,
I don’t really know anyone who is terribly wealthy. Mostly working-class: both among foster-families and otherwise.
It is my impression that most of the children that run through the state-controlled foster care system are lower-income to middle-income level families.
So perhaps, there does exist a large number of families out there who molest or neglect their children, but that they are too wealthy to come within the scope of DCF [Dept Children & Families, or whatever it is called in your particular state].
While the overall percentages [or ratios] of wealthy : middle-class : poor, do change and vary from region to region. It is my over-all impression that the wealthy are few. Whereas the middle-class and poor are in the majority.
“I do not think that you are espousing pedophilia.”
Thank you.
”I do wonder, however, if you have teenaged daughters. If so, I cannot understand your position.”
Our current foster-daughter is 11. She turns 12 this coming weekend.
”Are you saying that at a certain age it is no longer abuse, but most probably is just 'natural'?”
I think that abusive behavior is abusive behavior and should be treated as such. It often is taught to very young children who in turn perform abusive behavior to others [commonly anyone younger or smaller than themselves]. There are many varied forms of abusive behavior; sexual predators, bullies, sadists, etc. They can be seen as abusive spouses, controlling people, micro-managers, etc.
I don’t see any magic ‘line’ or demarcation that happens when someone turns 18, that suddenly turns them into an adult. One day they are a child and protected, and the next day they are an adult. Our society made this demarcation, and formed laws around it, building it up. Regardless of how sexually active a person is before or after this one day. Regardless of how they have progressed toward maturity: physically or behaviorally. We as a society have built this demarcation at an arbitrary age. If a person has physically developed and matured and puberty is behind them; and their behavior tends to suggest that they have entered into ‘adult’ sexual relationships, then calling them a ‘child’ is mis-leading.
I do agree with earlier cultures that did or still do, use formalized arranged marriages for people once they have reached this demarcation. Trying to find guidance for ‘dating’ from within the Scripture is difficult. Why? Because it really did not happen. Which is largely responsible for why we today have so much confusion and mis-understanding among single adults. There are no guidelines in existence, because as a group we are operating outside of Biblical guidelines.
Is it a disease when a [red-blooded] X---X sees a young [fully developed] X---X, and feels a sexual attraction? Either of these X---Xs could have been male or female.
No, I don’t think so, I think it is biology. Are we as humans, higher than dogs and cats? Sure. Should we be able to control ourselves and act ‘professionally’? Sure.
Does this mean that just because a cute young thing walks by that I have to sin in my mind? No.
Can my mind-body find her attractive without ‘fantasizing’ about having sex? Sure can.
If she is under 18 and I am over 18; am I now a pedophile? What if I am over 40? Now do I become a pedophile?
I do not fantasize about having sex with under-age females. In fact I generally don’t fantasize about sex outside of marriage at all. But that does not mean that I don’t see the young ladies around me. Or that I don’t see other men around me also looking at those young ladies. From what I can see, it appears fairly common among adult men, to notice and look at young ladies. From what I read here on GS, I would presume that it is not un-common among adult ladies as well. Are they all pedophiles? Are we all pedophiles?
I am certainly concerned about raising this daughter. I am concerned about her friends. Two years ago for Halloween a friend came over for a party that we were hosting, she was ‘costumed’ as a hooker. She was 10. Is that appropriate? I did not think so. But that also appears to be our society today.
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wyteduv58
Galen you couldn't have said it better.
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CoolWaters
Galen,
I did put it on a money level, didn't I? Well, that's too broad a brush...and I know it. But what I was trying to point out is that there is a larger group that does not fall into the system...for one reason or another. Not telling or not being believed seems to be more common than being able to afford to hide the whole mess.
You bring up some very interesting points in all of your posts on this subject.
One of the most misunderstood aspects of childhood sexual abuse is that often the child finds the experience physically pleasurable. And if there is no other type of abuse going on, then the child also experiences emotional pleasure.
There are many cultures that believe the father is the person who should introduce his daughters to sexuality.
In our culture, that is taboo.
Should it be?
Your points about arranged marriages comes into play here, imo.
If a 12yo is going to be married to a 40yo, somebody had better teach her what to expect...and something needs to happen physically before she gets into the wedding bed...or there is going to be damage physically, mentally and emotionally.
Then there is the custom of waiting a year before the marriage is consummated. (I learned this in piffle, so I have no idea if it is real or not.) This custom would, imo, solve the issue of preparing a very young girl for sex with an adult male.
Taboos are usually based upon horror stories.
What about the stories that aren't so horrific?
One of the deepest shames for many victims of pedophilia is that the victim had natural arousal responses.
I don't know the answers here at all. I sometimes wonder if my dad hadn't been so mean and forceful, would I have felt so violated? I can't say for sure because it wasn't that way.
I do know that as an adult I've had one night encounters that were as loving and giving and respectful as anything I've experienced in marriage. I've also experienced rape.
Again, where is the line drawn?
As the mother of a daughter who got involved with a 23yo when she was 16yo, I know that his main goal was control. She married him because of her daughter. She divorced him 2 years later because of the abuse. He is now awaiting trial for illegal intercourse with a 12yo. My daughter was shocked at this. I was not. After all, he honed in on my daughter as a minor, why wouldn't he hone in on someone else's daughter as a minor?
But our society is duplicitous in these things.
A 16yo cannot legally vote, go into the military, work overtime, drink or smoke because they are considered too immature to make good decisions concerning these things. But they can 'consent' to sex and, naturally, to being a parent if that arises?
Again, I don't know the answers.
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mj412
the ages of consent vary in the state for marriage and ALSO for consentual sex.
IN NY you can legaly have sex at the age of seventeen . YOU have the right of CONSENT to sex. at 16 or any other age it is assumed illegal(for the one having sex with you hence the coin "jail bait") regardless of how the 16 or under feels about it. the state presses the charge. it is sexual abuse of a minor child .
this is the law for both male and female. it isnt illegal for a minor o have sex it is illegal for a person 18 years and older to have sex with a minor. because the law states a minor is NOT allowed to consent . they can have sex with other minors and they can have sex with a person over 18 but the peron 18 or older can be charged with a crime.
Rape is a different charge all together.
In NY you can not legaly marry untill your 18 . you can not purchase a license or file a license to marry in NY untill BOTH are 18 unless a parent gets permission from the court to allow the minor child to marry. I suppose the money aspect of who is paying for these kids plays a large part of why the state needs to know and get involved.
In NY a parent is financial responsibile for a child till they reach the age of 21 regardless if they live at home or not UNLESS they are married which is a legal contract as well. the state is concerned a teen would get married and then unable to maintain a proper household and end up asking the state for money .
Incest is a whole different story all together many times even today incest is treated as a mental health family issues and dealt with in the family courts with conseling for the entire family as it is a mental health issue and a dysfunctional family issue as is most child abuse. the family courts focus is to keep the family together and repair the cycles that generate from these mental health issues such as incest. This is why foster care is sometimes needed while a family works on these issues , not just the evil man who had sex with the child every family meber now has the learned patterns and behaviours of the mental disease and more than likely will carry into their own families .
many incest victims stay within the family it is the goal of the court to "help" the situation by conseling and other interventions. ONLY IN very extreme cases with other conditions such as maybe drug use or physical abuse as well is a child removed for any length of time for just sexual abuse. IT is considered a mental health issue within the family and addressed as such for remedy. Yes some are also charged in criminal court it is a seperate court, and how the family works with the conseling and the family court system ( how much money and what type of lawyer you may have being a big factor) can influence how the charges are levied if at all.
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