Sorry you were treated so horribly once again. Like the lady in this story I think you were for some reason branded as a resister and then were of course in some sick way expendable. Boy does this sound familiar.
A stream of letters from troubled Christians around the world.
They had watched as the focus of their churches shifted from Bible-based teaching to purpose-driven experiences. Many had sensed something wrong but couldn't define the problem. Some wondered how God's guidance fit into this tightly controlled man-made system. They had asked questions, but no one could calm their concern. They had tried to warn their pastor and friends but had been rebuffed. Some were even told to find another church. All shared the pain of rejection.
The following letter from Pat Johnson illustrates the struggle faced by those who cannot, with a clear conscience, go along with a church that embraces the world's transformative marketing and management methods:
"I just read 'Small Groups and the Dialectic Process.' Absolutely dead-on! At the end of it, I read this paragraph which took my breath away: 'In today's Church Growth Movement, resisters are usually sifted out fairly early in the process. In the next installment, we will look at some of the ways non-conformists are assessed, exposed, vilified and dismissed from the church families they have loved, served and supported.
"I have been forced out of two churches for being such a 'resister.' I am a normal wife and mom and teacher who would not conform and, as you stated above, have been shunned and vilified. This has caused me considerable heartbreak and torment. For years I have struggled to cope with the shock of losing my church family and being branded as divisive.
"The ONLY way I have been able to come through this is to return to my Lord and trust His Word only. For years, I didn't really realize that I had drifted away from Him. Then when the storm hit, I didn't have the means to withstand it. By His grace and mercy, I have emerged from the mind-hell that shaming and shunning create...."
Vilifying and shaming "resisters" is nothing new. Old Testament prophets like Jeremiah and Isaiah described the rejection and mockery they endured for speaking God's truth. At least one early Church was torn by similar hostilities. The apostle John told us about a church who modeled the kinds of tactics used in the Church Growth movement.
The same is true in postmodern churches. Like secular change agents, from UN visionaries to local educators, church leaders are being trained in the latest business management theories. They envision a unified community where all members participate in the required "lifelong learning" and facilitated consensus groups. No one would be exempt from the continual assessments that measure cooperation, monitor compliance and provide leaders with the feedback needed .
Since change agents must be totally committed to their strategic mission or purpose, they must also view dissenters as wrong. While some issues can be negotiated, this is not one of them. Successful transformation depends on persuading the vast majority to share their single-minded focus. Those who disagree with their manipulative strategies are viewed as intolerable barriers to the ultimate goal: a new way of collective thinking, being and serving.
In the end, the specific vision or stated purposes matter little. What counts are the unity and conformity derived from the common focus, the feel-good group experiences, the peer pressure, and the facilitated process. The only real obstacles to mass compliance are those (usually faithful members) who oppose the essential steps to top-down control and infect others with their doubts. You may recognize some of the steps
Identify resisters. In the Church Growth Movement, the resisters are those who question the need for systemic change (total restructuring of all facets), distrust the dialectic process, and criticize the transformational methods. What's worse, they refuse to shift their primary focus from the actual Scriptures to the positively phrased "purpose" or "vision" or "mission statement."
"Change leaders should expect resistance to team learning. ... Recognizing and making this resistance explicit to other team members tends to lessen its grip. It takes time for a group to emerge as a team, and all the concerns and resistance related to teams will resurface during this period."
Rick Warren is more subtle, and his references to health versus disease cloak his hostility toward "unhealthy" members who resist his agenda. In The Purpose Driven Church, he writes:
"When a human body is out of balance we call that disease.... Likewise, when the body of Christ becomes unbalanced, disease occurs.... Health will occur only when everything is brought back into balance. The task of church leadership is to discover and remove growth-restricting diseases and barriers so that natural, normal growth can occur."
Since change agents must be totally committed to their strategic mission or purpose, they must also view dissenters as wrong. While some issues can be negotiated, this is not one of them. Successful transformation depends on persuading the vast majority to share their single-minded focus. Those who disagree with their manipulative strategies are viewed as intolerable barriers to the ultimate goal: a new way of collective thinking, being and serving.
Establish rules, regulations, laws and principles that silence, punish or drive out resisters. At Saddleback, every new member must sign a "Membership Covenant." It includes this innocuous promise: "I will protect the unity of my church... by following the leaders."
This covenant is backed by Scriptures such as Ephesians 4: 29 ("Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths....) and Hebrews 13:17 ("Obey your leaders and submit to their authority....")
But taking a stand on God's Word is hardly what the Bible refers to as "unwholesome talk." And, if church leaders followed the world's management system rather than God's way, the command to "obey your leader and submit...." would be overruled by other relevant Scriptures. For example, when the religious leaders in Jerusalem told John and Peter to stop teaching "in the name of Jesus," they answered,
Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.” Acts 4:19
Sometimes it seems like modern-day American Christianity is turning into another Mars Hill.
I've read a little of "Purpose Driven Life" and, rebel that I am, have not "committed" myself to reading it for 40 days straight. I can't get past even that mandate. Don't get me wrong, I believe that if something gets you closer to God and Jesus, hooray. As for me, I'm still in the process of learning not to follow men or movements. I'm learning how to select the parts of a book or ministry that I can apply to my life without letting it take over.
I don't know if I'll ever get to a point where I can give myself to a Christian ministry or group the way I did TWI and CES. It just wasn't healthy for me. But I believe everybody has to go through that same process that I'm going through.
Even in Christianity, I believe there's such a thing as information overload, when it's not the Bible you're overloading on.
In the early to mid 1990's LCM began to systematically weed out people who had been around TWI when VPW was alive and running things. We were told we were "old wine" and would not be compatible with the "new wine" of the Present Truth. The little smarmy bastard who was our BC said he just didn't think any of you old people will be strong enough to stand on the present truth. Then the attacks on anyone who had been around much before LCM's ascendancy to the throne were individually called on the carpet. Debt was a good excuse - most of us were no longer footloose youth, but married couples with children and jobs and houses we were purchasing. Thus a mortgage loan, which Uncle Harry had said was not a debt since property usually increases in value, became the worst sort of debt. When I reminded someone of this, I was sharply informed, "Uncle Harry is dead! And this is a different administration we are living under, The Present Truth. It is different from the truth Uncle Harry knew!"
Well at one time last summer, we owned 3 houses! Happily we sold 2 of them but I look back now with a "Take that, you fool!" attitude!
The church I attend is indeed growing but not through the 40 days stuff. I guess. I kind of sing in the choir and mind my own business.
But Saddleback sure sounds like New Knoxville West.
We were made for God's pleasure? Our purpose is to offer worship? Does God need His ego constantly stroked by us, his children? That sounds like the beginnings of a co-dependent relationship with the Divine. Perhaps, we were made for Him to pour His love into and having experienced His love and we can offer it back to Him and our fellow humans. That sounds like the basis of a healthier relationship with God and our fellow man. Like the bumper stickers my church gives out "Love Wins."
Def I guess I felt like I was put on the spot. If I was being egotistically self-centered, and not being others oriented, I was definitely wrong. However, it's kind of hard to think "What can I do to bless this person?" when that person has a figurative gun to your head.
Did you leave TWI on your own? Were you strong enough to stand up to the Man/Woman of God for your city and tell him/her to go to he11? If you did, good for you! I was yelled at, screamed at, criticized beyond measure and by people I thought I could trust.
The WOW Ambassador Program was about others, not self. It was about selling others on a class and getting their money for that class, other classes, abundant sharing, etc. It was about getting them to buy, literally and figuratively, a lifestyle and a pattern of thought that were often contrary to the simple teachings of Jesus.
WG
I walked away from TWI in 1989 and no one ever called me back. I have stopped people from joining.
TWI was all about meeting the needs of the self and the leadership and to h*** with the others.
PDL is a book that has helped many marginal Christians see that God is more than Santa Claus and that he has a purpose for all of us and watches over us.
When we seize on that purpose, we can experience true freedom and reach out to others with pure intentions.
I agree with the part about worship. I liked the book immensely and it helped me a lot, right up to the parts about discipline, abandonment, etc. That was straight TWI, Def, from about 1993 on. I realize you were not around to enjoy the witch hunts, the inquisitions, the friends disappearing from fellowship with no explanation, then hearing them villified and slandered in a couple weeks, then having it happen to you.
I believe that we live and move in God's Grace. I do not believe grace is an excuse to sin. I believe that we need to help others, but not to force them into cookie-cutter molds of phony cordiality. Waybots if you will.
Seeing the obvious direction things were headed in and seeing no hint of any return to any resemblance of sanity I took my leave around 1988 so I missed the new truth years.
Quote:
We were told we were "old wine" and would not be compatible with the "new wine" of the Present Truth. The little smarmy bastard who was our BC said he just didn't think any of you old people will be strong enough to stand on the present truth. Then the attacks on anyone who had been around much before LCM's ascendancy to the throne were individually called on the carpet.
I wonder didn't anyone notice that Craig and the other BOT and others were also "old wine"? Logically if they were old wine and somehow made it into the "present truth" whatever that is then it must be possible for others to also.
Quote:
And this is a different administration we are living under, The Present Truth. It is different from the truth Uncle Harry knew!"
I don't recall there being a Present Truth Administration between the Grace and the Appearing or Revelation Administration.
I think most people were too intimidated by his tyranny to think straight. I know one of our initial confrontations with our HFC's we were told our marriage sucked, we did not communicate, and we needed to "get rid of" our son. My husband went storming out and the HFC continued to deride my husband, a man who had mentored his own wonderful self, as "weak and of no character." We were putting our son ahead of God and His Wonderful Ministry!!!
I was terrified. Caught between a rock and a hard place. Shocked and horrified. I did, however, leave, and pick up my husband on the way home.
A couple months later, the BC congratulated me on learning better communication skills in our marriage and how much more wonderful things now were!
We hadn't changed a damn thing nor had we lied and said we did! To this day, I don't know what he was talking about.
But see where this doctrine of confrontation and abandonment can lead?
These same HFC's a year later had a hefty medical bill to pay. We overheard the wife telling someone how they had written it off to Medicaid. Then we got confronted about the same thing by the BC's who used them as an example of someone who paid the medical bills and cleared their just debt!
People lie to make themselves acceptable. This should NEVER be forced to happen.
And my question now to them and to the small group and anyone else is this:
If I stand approved before God, what makes you think you have the right and the ability to improve on that? Who the he11 do you think you are? If Jesus Christ died for me and I live and breathe and move in God's grace, what do you think you have to add? Are you smarter than God? Do you love me more than He does?
Of course we know the answers those TWIers would come up with, don't we?
Sorry, Def but I cannot buy into the "we are made for God's pleasure argument" that serves as the basis for Warren's book. I find it fatally flawed. It is like another one of those a priori assumptions that seem innocent and reasonable at first but once accepted you must follow it all the way through to it's logical conclusions that in the end are devastating. Remember from the twi days the assumption among others that we were asked to swallow without engaging our critical thinking
went something like this...twi is the only place that teaches the rightly divided Word of God...therefore, you must only fellowship with twi and count others as "unbelievers"...therefore, this includes your family if they choose not to take the class and "stand"...therefore, only fellow twi'ers are worthy of your love...therefore, everyone else must be tricked and is either worshipping the Devil directly or indirectly...therefore, ad nauseum.
I agree God is Holy and as such is deserving of our highest praise but the metaphors He uses to describe the relationship He desires to have with us are the relationship of a loving Father with His children and marriage. What do these metaphors have as their common basis? Isn't it a relationship based on love, intimacy and a full sharing rather than God made us for his pleasure. What kind of family results from the notion that children are for the parents pleasure? Sounds, pretty dysfunctional doesn't it? What kind of marriage results from the basis that the woman is for the man's pleasure? Doesn't sound very nurturing does it? What makes God holy after all if it's not the unfathomable riches of His love?
Ooooo Another book to run my life and run others lives by---
I stood in Costco and read this thing thinking....oh hmm a cleaned up bible tells me so ...'
I dont think so, the church that I hang on the periphery of is doing this now....the amount of labor needs and helpin ght fellow christian out reminds me of a monumentus Way event...needless to say I have stayed away at this time.
This book is just too schmarmy for me....and so is all the stuff people are knee deep in at the church...
Interestingly enough, it didn't take off too much at our church. I think part of this was because the canned sermons were so non-genuine. They are practically recited and no one likes that. A lot of people there do respect the Bible, and some of them are just plain stubborn.
It would be interesting to discuss the monograph Dovey posted the link to with the pastors, but I just am not that interested. I have no idea whether the small group I mentioned is still regurgitating this crap (discussed by the men only, of course) and I could frankly care less. Right now, I'm just hovering on the fringes, myself.
QUOTE: I have no idea whether the small group I mentioned is still regurgitating this crap (discussed by the men only, of course) and I could frankly care less. Right now, I'm just hovering on the fringes, myself.
Well now Watered Garden there ya go,you just wern't playin' by the men's rules. Mr. Purpose Driven has a name for people like you. You rascaly rabbit you:D-->
"Today's culture of independent individualism has created many spiritual orphans—'bunny believers' who hop around from one church to another without any identity, accountability or commitments. Many believe one can be a "good Christian' without joining (or even attending ) a local church, but God would strongly disagree."[ page 133]
My purpose for getting involved in the PDL study groups at this time is to get to know the people in the church better. I see good and I see TWI in this book and I'm not altogether smitten with it, but I do see merit in some aspects and I also see opportunities to debunk some things.
I HATE/DETEST/ABHOR having to memorize scripture because someone told me to and I'm not looking forward to the parts on "everyone has to give." and the witnessing aspects of it. But so far we have only met once and that was to work out the details of our individual study group. We were talking about witnessing and I shared with them the "No one cares what you know until they know you care" phrase from TWI and they loved that so it's our "scripture" for the week.
They know I come from a cult and that I'm only recently out and the tender loving care I've received is nothing short of phenomenal. My group is all ladies and even on the first night there was a great deal of heart sharing. We're serious about utilizing the admonition to do what works for your group and that the group alone makes the "rules" so to speak. I don't see or feel the legalism in our group and can guaran-dam*-tee you that if it creeps in I will speak up and/or move out.
So far, I see it being good for them and I also see how I can contribute and keep the balance in our group because of my experience. A lot of this is things they've never been taught or even thought about. It's also a great time of bonding in the church.
I know this may sound harsh, but this book is not PFAL nor does it try to be. It is geared toward a self-centered culture of christians and non-christians who thinks the creator of the universe revolves aroud them.
Warren is a good-ole Southern Baptist who, like Willow Creek in Chicago has formulated the great commandment and commission into great success and numbers.
Warren is not pushing anything new here. It is basic Christianity. He is trinitarian and evangelical and believes God's love is for all.
There are many reformed theologians who are appalled at his book, so any critics here are in good company.
For me, it was the best book I have read in the past 10-15 years that rejuvenated my spiritual walk. A second book I read that may be more appealing is Max Lucado's "Next Door Savior." That book is all about Jesus.
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Watered Garden
Sorry you were treated so horribly once again. Like the lady in this story I think you were for some reason branded as a resister and then were of course in some sick way expendable. Boy does this sound familiar.
A stream of letters from troubled Christians around the world.
They had watched as the focus of their churches shifted from Bible-based teaching to purpose-driven experiences. Many had sensed something wrong but couldn't define the problem. Some wondered how God's guidance fit into this tightly controlled man-made system. They had asked questions, but no one could calm their concern. They had tried to warn their pastor and friends but had been rebuffed. Some were even told to find another church. All shared the pain of rejection.
The following letter from Pat Johnson illustrates the struggle faced by those who cannot, with a clear conscience, go along with a church that embraces the world's transformative marketing and management methods:
"I just read 'Small Groups and the Dialectic Process.' Absolutely dead-on! At the end of it, I read this paragraph which took my breath away: 'In today's Church Growth Movement, resisters are usually sifted out fairly early in the process. In the next installment, we will look at some of the ways non-conformists are assessed, exposed, vilified and dismissed from the church families they have loved, served and supported.
"I have been forced out of two churches for being such a 'resister.' I am a normal wife and mom and teacher who would not conform and, as you stated above, have been shunned and vilified. This has caused me considerable heartbreak and torment. For years I have struggled to cope with the shock of losing my church family and being branded as divisive.
"The ONLY way I have been able to come through this is to return to my Lord and trust His Word only. For years, I didn't really realize that I had drifted away from Him. Then when the storm hit, I didn't have the means to withstand it. By His grace and mercy, I have emerged from the mind-hell that shaming and shunning create...."
Vilifying and shaming "resisters" is nothing new. Old Testament prophets like Jeremiah and Isaiah described the rejection and mockery they endured for speaking God's truth. At least one early Church was torn by similar hostilities. The apostle John told us about a church who modeled the kinds of tactics used in the Church Growth movement.
The same is true in postmodern churches. Like secular change agents, from UN visionaries to local educators, church leaders are being trained in the latest business management theories. They envision a unified community where all members participate in the required "lifelong learning" and facilitated consensus groups. No one would be exempt from the continual assessments that measure cooperation, monitor compliance and provide leaders with the feedback needed .
Since change agents must be totally committed to their strategic mission or purpose, they must also view dissenters as wrong. While some issues can be negotiated, this is not one of them. Successful transformation depends on persuading the vast majority to share their single-minded focus. Those who disagree with their manipulative strategies are viewed as intolerable barriers to the ultimate goal: a new way of collective thinking, being and serving.
In the end, the specific vision or stated purposes matter little. What counts are the unity and conformity derived from the common focus, the feel-good group experiences, the peer pressure, and the facilitated process. The only real obstacles to mass compliance are those (usually faithful members) who oppose the essential steps to top-down control and infect others with their doubts. You may recognize some of the steps
Identify resisters. In the Church Growth Movement, the resisters are those who question the need for systemic change (total restructuring of all facets), distrust the dialectic process, and criticize the transformational methods. What's worse, they refuse to shift their primary focus from the actual Scriptures to the positively phrased "purpose" or "vision" or "mission statement."
"Change leaders should expect resistance to team learning. ... Recognizing and making this resistance explicit to other team members tends to lessen its grip. It takes time for a group to emerge as a team, and all the concerns and resistance related to teams will resurface during this period."
Rick Warren is more subtle, and his references to health versus disease cloak his hostility toward "unhealthy" members who resist his agenda. In The Purpose Driven Church, he writes:
"When a human body is out of balance we call that disease.... Likewise, when the body of Christ becomes unbalanced, disease occurs.... Health will occur only when everything is brought back into balance. The task of church leadership is to discover and remove growth-restricting diseases and barriers so that natural, normal growth can occur."
Since change agents must be totally committed to their strategic mission or purpose, they must also view dissenters as wrong. While some issues can be negotiated, this is not one of them. Successful transformation depends on persuading the vast majority to share their single-minded focus. Those who disagree with their manipulative strategies are viewed as intolerable barriers to the ultimate goal: a new way of collective thinking, being and serving.
Establish rules, regulations, laws and principles that silence, punish or drive out resisters. At Saddleback, every new member must sign a "Membership Covenant." It includes this innocuous promise: "I will protect the unity of my church... by following the leaders."
This covenant is backed by Scriptures such as Ephesians 4: 29 ("Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths....) and Hebrews 13:17 ("Obey your leaders and submit to their authority....")
But taking a stand on God's Word is hardly what the Bible refers to as "unwholesome talk." And, if church leaders followed the world's management system rather than God's way, the command to "obey your leader and submit...." would be overruled by other relevant Scriptures. For example, when the religious leaders in Jerusalem told John and Peter to stop teaching "in the name of Jesus," they answered,
Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.” Acts 4:19
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wwjesuslaughat
Sometimes it seems like modern-day American Christianity is turning into another Mars Hill.
I've read a little of "Purpose Driven Life" and, rebel that I am, have not "committed" myself to reading it for 40 days straight. I can't get past even that mandate. Don't get me wrong, I believe that if something gets you closer to God and Jesus, hooray. As for me, I'm still in the process of learning not to follow men or movements. I'm learning how to select the parts of a book or ministry that I can apply to my life without letting it take over.
I don't know if I'll ever get to a point where I can give myself to a Christian ministry or group the way I did TWI and CES. It just wasn't healthy for me. But I believe everybody has to go through that same process that I'm going through.
Even in Christianity, I believe there's such a thing as information overload, when it's not the Bible you're overloading on.
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Watered Garden
Dove,
In the early to mid 1990's LCM began to systematically weed out people who had been around TWI when VPW was alive and running things. We were told we were "old wine" and would not be compatible with the "new wine" of the Present Truth. The little smarmy bastard who was our BC said he just didn't think any of you old people will be strong enough to stand on the present truth. Then the attacks on anyone who had been around much before LCM's ascendancy to the throne were individually called on the carpet. Debt was a good excuse - most of us were no longer footloose youth, but married couples with children and jobs and houses we were purchasing. Thus a mortgage loan, which Uncle Harry had said was not a debt since property usually increases in value, became the worst sort of debt. When I reminded someone of this, I was sharply informed, "Uncle Harry is dead! And this is a different administration we are living under, The Present Truth. It is different from the truth Uncle Harry knew!"
Well at one time last summer, we owned 3 houses! Happily we sold 2 of them but I look back now with a "Take that, you fool!" attitude!
The church I attend is indeed growing but not through the 40 days stuff. I guess. I kind of sing in the choir and mind my own business.
But Saddleback sure sounds like New Knoxville West.
WG
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oenophile
We were made for God's pleasure? Our purpose is to offer worship? Does God need His ego constantly stroked by us, his children? That sounds like the beginnings of a co-dependent relationship with the Divine. Perhaps, we were made for Him to pour His love into and having experienced His love and we can offer it back to Him and our fellow humans. That sounds like the basis of a healthier relationship with God and our fellow man. Like the bumper stickers my church gives out "Love Wins."
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excathedra
thank you oenophile
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def59
I walked away from TWI in 1989 and no one ever called me back. I have stopped people from joining.
TWI was all about meeting the needs of the self and the leadership and to h*** with the others.
PDL is a book that has helped many marginal Christians see that God is more than Santa Claus and that he has a purpose for all of us and watches over us.
When we seize on that purpose, we can experience true freedom and reach out to others with pure intentions.
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def59
Oeno
God wants a relationship with us, one based on love and voluntary desire. We are called to worship Him, why? Because he needs his ego stroked? No!
We worship him because of who he is and because he is holy. I have followed the precepts in PDL and my worship has increased immensely.
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Watered Garden
I agree with the part about worship. I liked the book immensely and it helped me a lot, right up to the parts about discipline, abandonment, etc. That was straight TWI, Def, from about 1993 on. I realize you were not around to enjoy the witch hunts, the inquisitions, the friends disappearing from fellowship with no explanation, then hearing them villified and slandered in a couple weeks, then having it happen to you.
I believe that we live and move in God's Grace. I do not believe grace is an excuse to sin. I believe that we need to help others, but not to force them into cookie-cutter molds of phony cordiality. Waybots if you will.
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WhiteDove
WG
Seeing the obvious direction things were headed in and seeing no hint of any return to any resemblance of sanity I took my leave around 1988 so I missed the new truth years.
Quote:
We were told we were "old wine" and would not be compatible with the "new wine" of the Present Truth. The little smarmy bastard who was our BC said he just didn't think any of you old people will be strong enough to stand on the present truth. Then the attacks on anyone who had been around much before LCM's ascendancy to the throne were individually called on the carpet.
I wonder didn't anyone notice that Craig and the other BOT and others were also "old wine"? Logically if they were old wine and somehow made it into the "present truth" whatever that is then it must be possible for others to also.
Quote:
And this is a different administration we are living under, The Present Truth. It is different from the truth Uncle Harry knew!"
I don't recall there being a Present Truth Administration between the Grace and the Appearing or Revelation Administration.
I wonder did he have an answer for why that is?
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Watered Garden
I think most people were too intimidated by his tyranny to think straight. I know one of our initial confrontations with our HFC's we were told our marriage sucked, we did not communicate, and we needed to "get rid of" our son. My husband went storming out and the HFC continued to deride my husband, a man who had mentored his own wonderful self, as "weak and of no character." We were putting our son ahead of God and His Wonderful Ministry!!!
I was terrified. Caught between a rock and a hard place. Shocked and horrified. I did, however, leave, and pick up my husband on the way home.
A couple months later, the BC congratulated me on learning better communication skills in our marriage and how much more wonderful things now were!
We hadn't changed a damn thing nor had we lied and said we did! To this day, I don't know what he was talking about.
But see where this doctrine of confrontation and abandonment can lead?
These same HFC's a year later had a hefty medical bill to pay. We overheard the wife telling someone how they had written it off to Medicaid. Then we got confronted about the same thing by the BC's who used them as an example of someone who paid the medical bills and cleared their just debt!
People lie to make themselves acceptable. This should NEVER be forced to happen.
And my question now to them and to the small group and anyone else is this:
If I stand approved before God, what makes you think you have the right and the ability to improve on that? Who the he11 do you think you are? If Jesus Christ died for me and I live and breathe and move in God's grace, what do you think you have to add? Are you smarter than God? Do you love me more than He does?
Of course we know the answers those TWIers would come up with, don't we?
WG
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oenophile
Sorry, Def but I cannot buy into the "we are made for God's pleasure argument" that serves as the basis for Warren's book. I find it fatally flawed. It is like another one of those a priori assumptions that seem innocent and reasonable at first but once accepted you must follow it all the way through to it's logical conclusions that in the end are devastating. Remember from the twi days the assumption among others that we were asked to swallow without engaging our critical thinking
went something like this...twi is the only place that teaches the rightly divided Word of God...therefore, you must only fellowship with twi and count others as "unbelievers"...therefore, this includes your family if they choose not to take the class and "stand"...therefore, only fellow twi'ers are worthy of your love...therefore, everyone else must be tricked and is either worshipping the Devil directly or indirectly...therefore, ad nauseum.
I agree God is Holy and as such is deserving of our highest praise but the metaphors He uses to describe the relationship He desires to have with us are the relationship of a loving Father with His children and marriage. What do these metaphors have as their common basis? Isn't it a relationship based on love, intimacy and a full sharing rather than God made us for his pleasure. What kind of family results from the notion that children are for the parents pleasure? Sounds, pretty dysfunctional doesn't it? What kind of marriage results from the basis that the woman is for the man's pleasure? Doesn't sound very nurturing does it? What makes God holy after all if it's not the unfathomable riches of His love?
Love Wins. And I love you!
:)-->
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Watered Garden
Oenophile,
That was awesome! Thank you!
WG
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DaddyHoundog
Washingtonweather here:
Ooooo Another book to run my life and run others lives by---
I stood in Costco and read this thing thinking....oh hmm a cleaned up bible tells me so ...'
I dont think so, the church that I hang on the periphery of is doing this now....the amount of labor needs and helpin ght fellow christian out reminds me of a monumentus Way event...needless to say I have stayed away at this time.
This book is just too schmarmy for me....and so is all the stuff people are knee deep in at the church...
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Watered Garden
Interestingly enough, it didn't take off too much at our church. I think part of this was because the canned sermons were so non-genuine. They are practically recited and no one likes that. A lot of people there do respect the Bible, and some of them are just plain stubborn.
It would be interesting to discuss the monograph Dovey posted the link to with the pastors, but I just am not that interested. I have no idea whether the small group I mentioned is still regurgitating this crap (discussed by the men only, of course) and I could frankly care less. Right now, I'm just hovering on the fringes, myself.
WG
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WhiteDove
QUOTE: I have no idea whether the small group I mentioned is still regurgitating this crap (discussed by the men only, of course) and I could frankly care less. Right now, I'm just hovering on the fringes, myself.
Well now Watered Garden there ya go,you just wern't playin' by the men's rules. Mr. Purpose Driven has a name for people like you. You rascaly rabbit you
:D-->
"Today's culture of independent individualism has created many spiritual orphans—'bunny believers' who hop around from one church to another without any identity, accountability or commitments. Many believe one can be a "good Christian' without joining (or even attending ) a local church, but God would strongly disagree."[ page 133]
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Watered Garden
Wow that last quote...do you suppose this guy was ever connected with our good old buddies on the farm???
I swear that reminds me of something from PFAL.
WG
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WhiteDove
Hop Hop Hop....
Another Bunny Believer
attends the first church of Hef
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excathedra
you know, my initial barflike reaction was not really against god; it was against the purpose driven life
:)-->
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Belle
My purpose for getting involved in the PDL study groups at this time is to get to know the people in the church better. I see good and I see TWI in this book and I'm not altogether smitten with it, but I do see merit in some aspects and I also see opportunities to debunk some things.
I HATE/DETEST/ABHOR having to memorize scripture because someone told me to and I'm not looking forward to the parts on "everyone has to give." and the witnessing aspects of it. But so far we have only met once and that was to work out the details of our individual study group. We were talking about witnessing and I shared with them the "No one cares what you know until they know you care" phrase from TWI and they loved that so it's our "scripture" for the week.
They know I come from a cult and that I'm only recently out and the tender loving care I've received is nothing short of phenomenal. My group is all ladies and even on the first night there was a great deal of heart sharing. We're serious about utilizing the admonition to do what works for your group and that the group alone makes the "rules" so to speak. I don't see or feel the legalism in our group and can guaran-dam*-tee you that if it creeps in I will speak up and/or move out.
So far, I see it being good for them and I also see how I can contribute and keep the balance in our group because of my experience. A lot of this is things they've never been taught or even thought about. It's also a great time of bonding in the church.
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Belle
p.s. WhiteDove where did you get that picture of me???
:D-->
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Watered Garden
Belle - is that your choir robe????
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Belle
WG, the Singing Ladies we ain't!
;)--> 
:D-->
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Catcup
Just trying to imagine Debra Sleepr in that bunny outfit nearly made me lose my breakfast!
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def59
I know this may sound harsh, but this book is not PFAL nor does it try to be. It is geared toward a self-centered culture of christians and non-christians who thinks the creator of the universe revolves aroud them.
Warren is a good-ole Southern Baptist who, like Willow Creek in Chicago has formulated the great commandment and commission into great success and numbers.
Warren is not pushing anything new here. It is basic Christianity. He is trinitarian and evangelical and believes God's love is for all.
There are many reformed theologians who are appalled at his book, so any critics here are in good company.
For me, it was the best book I have read in the past 10-15 years that rejuvenated my spiritual walk. A second book I read that may be more appealing is Max Lucado's "Next Door Savior." That book is all about Jesus.
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