My church (Baptist) is doing a kick-off tailgate party Oct. 9th complete with BBQ, moonwalk rides for the kids, the UT game and then the simulcast with Rick Warren himself at 8pm.
We will be covering it in the sunday schools and in home groups for those people who don't attend our church.
My daughters church (methodist) is also doing it in the same time frame so even though we attend different churches, we can do it together.
The church I attended in San Diego studied that book last year. It was a great time. The weekly teachings were based on it, and our small groups discussed the teachings. It was a refreshing experience because a lot of things were shared from the heart, not just because you were called upon.
I saw a great sense of "togetherness" in our congregation as a result of that book. And the feeling of togetherness was not just our congregation but with other churches in the community. My small group had women in it from other churches.
My church starts this week. I'm pretty excited about it as I've already read the book and I'm fairly new to the church.
They're very excited and have been wearing their "Got Purpose?" t-shirts once a month to the contemporary service for a while. My t-shirt should be in this week.
The church wants people to participate so bad that the books and study aids are free. When did TWI ever do THAT???
AHAT the kick off sounds like a blast.
Wayfer Not! I love the idea of getting together with other churches. We are doing ours simultaneously with other churches in the area, but not combining groups. That is really cool.
I will be watching this thread with intrigue. Maybe one of you can explain what the Purpose of this book was other than to make Mr. Warren very wealthy. I read this book with a group of people I thought it sounded promising no one at the end saw any great purpose.
All the unbiblical reteric aside most of what was left seemed pretty common sense like Christianity 101 ie God wanted a family, We are not accidents Transformed by Truth ( I think that was a SNS tape) How to serve and so on...
I don't know mabe if I would have sprung for the deluxe set with the calander and key chain it would have turned out different.
Gee -- I'm feeling left out. I've not heard of this book before. I guess I can go to the local "Christian Bookstore" for it. Sounds popular. -->
I went there once for a bible, and they had one shelf only, for bibles. :(--> The entire store was filled with "feel good" parephenalia, and I don't want to categorize this book before I have read it, but it sounds like it fits the description.
Notice the difference between being "driven" and being "led":
Driven usually implies a controlling force pushing or forcing a passive subject (cattle, enemies, rebellious people, ship, etc):
"...until He has driven out His enemies from before Him." Numbers 32:21
"...you shall be driven mad because of the sight which your eyes see." Deuteronomy 28:34-35
“For the Lord has driven out from before you great and strong nations; but as for you, no one has been able to stand against you to this day." Joshua 23:9
"David took all the flocks and herds they had driven before those other livestock." 1 Samuel 30:19-20
"Will You frighten a leaf driven to and fro?" Job 13:25
"Then they will look to the earth, and see trouble and darkness, gloom of anguish; and they will be driven into darkness." Isaiah 8:22
"But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds." Jeremiah 23:3
"You shall be driven out, everyone headlong, and no one will gather those who wander off." Jeremiah 49:5
"But when his heart was lifted up, and his spirit was hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him. Then he was driven from the sons of men, his heart was made like the beasts." Daniel 5:20-21
"But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways." James 1:6-8
"Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds." James 3:4
Led or lead usually implies a choice on the part of God's people -- those who look to His Word and want to know and follow His ways:
"And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way." Exodus 13:21
Oh, send out Your light and Your truth! Let them lead me." Psalm 43:3
"O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err, and destroy the way of your paths.” Isaiah 3:12
"Lead me in Your truth and teach me, for You are the God of my salvation; on You I wait all the day." Psalm 25:5
"I will lead them in paths they have not known. I will make darkness light before them, and crooked places straight. " Isaiah 42:16
"Even there Your hand shall lead me, and Your right hand shall hold me." Psalm 139:10
"...see if there is any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." Psalm 139:24
"Teach me to do Your will, for You are my God; Your Spirit is good. Lead me in the land of uprightness." Psalm 143:10
"I will bring the blind by a way they did not know; I will lead them in paths they have not known. I will make darkness light before them, and crooked places straight. " Isaiah 42:16
"And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever." Matthew 6:13
"...for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” Revelation 7:17
I think there could be skepticism from ex-way people about this book. I already knew a lot of the principles from twi, but the difference IMHO is that the book covers it in a light of the WHOLE BODY OF CHRIST!! That is a HUGE difference from twi.
And the other differences are that it's taught from a perspective of Christ TRULY being the Head of the Church, not witnessing some stupid class. It was refreshing for me to participate in it with people who really want to strengthen their relationship with God not just get to the Advanced Class. There's a lot more heart in this book.
I would be willing to bet that the author of the book has donated a lot of books to churches. He already has a HUGE church in southern California who has already been "raised". He's teaching other churches how to be unified like he's seen in his own church. That's is a great task. But it truly is wonderful when you see it work.
I miss my church in San Diego. If any of you are interested in hearing any of the teachings from it, the website is www.cvcf.com. The pastor at that church really helped to revive my trust and love in God after twi.
"The Bible knows nothing of solitary saints or spiritual hermits isolated from other believers and deprived of fellowship." [ page 130]
Really? Is that true?
The imprisoned apostle Paul, a "solitary saint" separated from his fellow believers toward the end of his life, is only one of numerous Biblical examples of faithful men and women who grew strong in faith while standing alone. Check the Psalms, the Books of Isaiah, Jeremiah and other persecuted prophets, the Gospels.... Remember that in many Communist prisons, the uncompromising Biblical faith of tortured believers brought multitudes of fellow prisoners—even cold-hearted inquisitors and torturers—to Christ. Yes, our visible God-given love for one another demonstrates a divine gift that the world craves but cannot duplicate. But only the Truth of the gospel (doctrine), made alive by the Spirit, can spark that same divine life and love in another person. "Love" without Truth cannot bring unbelievers into God's Family.
Our small group at church studied this book a chapter at a time through much of last year. I liked it right up to I think Ch. 24, the one of reproof and discipline in the church.
First some guy hammered me for no reason, using me as an example of someone who needed to be told to shut up. Then the wife of the group leader said we should get to the point where this kind of confrontation happens all the time.
I began to sweat, cry, have profuse abdominal pain and flashbacks to my pre-M&A session with the MOGFODAT of the city where we lived.
To ice the cake, I led the discussion on the chapter on love, just a week or two before. I worked hard on that, and gave it my best shot. Everybody loved it, and I was thanked for doing such a "good job." So this next week, this leader's wife announces that from now on ONLY THE MEN should lead discussions!!!!
Now of course my reaction and experience was at least in part due to my feelings about my previous experiences. But I disagree with the whole concept, because there are always little TWI-wannabes like this woman, who want to run peoples' lives. I wonder if she would respond with the meekness she wants from others if I shared James on the tongue is evil with her? (She's got a very sharp tongue and will say nasty things to people in a very loving way. Sound familiar?)
The wonderful thing is I finally understand that evil is not exclusive to TWI - there are people who thrive on that kind of put-you-down, build-me-up mentality in every denomination.
I hope this makes some sense. It is pretty specific to the specific situation I found myself in. And, as a whole, the book was just great. But it's just a book. It can't contain God and shouldn't be worshipped as if it does.
The Power Players behind the BOOK and what they are selling.
As most of you know, Rick Warren, the founding pastor of Saddleback Church in Southern California, has been leading the way and breaking new ground in today's Church Growth Movement. With over 50,000 names on his church roll, he models the success of the church management process he outlined in his earlier book, The Purpose-Driven Church.
Peter Drucker the legendary management guru began teaching large corporations decades ago and this has now been applied to God's churches as well as to communities and governments around the world. Since the new methods seemed to "work" equally well for churches as for corporations -- and since the measured results offer statistical "proof" of "success" -- pastors from countless nations have embraced and implemented Drucker's marketing approach to "doing church."
In a 2002 article in Business Week titled "Peter Drucker's Search for Community," Ken Witty describes the world view that drives Drucker's plans and purpose:
"He brings a comunitarian philosophy to his consulting.... He said that what he's all about is this search for community, the search for where people and organizations find community for noneconomic satisfaction....
"A lot of his ideas have become so accepted that it's hard for anyone to understand how original they were at the time he introduced them. It's sort of like Freud and psychoanalysis. Peter was the first, for example, to help managers understand that they had to define their businesses from a customer's perspective.
Focusing on the "customer's perspective" brings success. People feel satisfied. They come and they buy. When this process is applied to churches, it works! With polls and surveys, a church can easily uncover the "felt needs" of the unbelievers in the local community -- then target their services to their intended consumers.
Why focus on the felt needs of unbelievers rather than the true needs of God's family? Doesn't this strategy turn God's principles upside down?
"...in this movement, it is imperative that unbelievers are brought into the church; otherwise, the process of continual change cannot begin. There must be an antithesis (unbelievers) present to oppose the thesis (believers), in order to move towards consensus.(compromise), and move the believers away from their moral absolutism (resistance to change). If all members of the church stand firm on the Word of God, and it’s final authority in all doctrine and tradition, then the church cannot and will not change. This is common faith. Soon, we will see why these “change agents” are pushing so hard for change to occur in the church."
Pastor Warren's current tutor in this management process is CMS a "full-service custom marketing and communications agency head-quartered in Covina, California." It's shows its mission:
"At CMS, we view it as our mission to help our clients grow their businesses. We do this by working with each client identifying opportunities and developing innovative, creative and profitable services which assist them in the execution of effective marketing, sales and communications program.... We are best able to serve clients when they allow us to act as partners.... CMS is made up of a team of talented individuals whose dedication and expertise have earned them a solid reputation for creating results.
While CMS partners includes secular giants such as Quaker and Isuzu Motors America, it also serves clients such as the City of West Covina, "Purpose Driven Ministries," "Saddleback Valley Community Church," "Smalley Relationship Center" and "Walk Thru the Bible." The latter was founded and led by Bruce Wilkinson, author of the well marketed bestseller , The Prayer of Jabez.
No wonder curious visitors are flocking to Purpose-Driven churches. Small wonder pastors around the world are watching, listening, ready to follow.
Peter Drucker's unbiblical emphasis on success by man's standards should stir great alarm among Christians. What happens to people who don't fit his blueprint for productive human resources? Sarah Leslie, co-author of The Pied Pipers of Purpose, a vital document that makes the complexities and connections behind the new management systems understandable, wrote:
"We’ve come across numerous references in the Purpose-Driven literature to a concept called 'abandonment.' It is a Peter Drucker concept that has to do with businesses abandoning parts of their business that don’t make money. In the private sector (churches) it translates into churches abandoning projects that don’t produce pre-defined 'results' (the measurable kind, 'outcomes,' etc.). This also means abandoning people who don’t go along with the flow — the 'laggards' who won’t participate in the transformation. A church split is seen as a good thing, in that it gets rid of those people who are blocking progress towards church restructuring."
If someone were to rewrite the parable of the Shepherd who leaves the 99 sheep to search for the one that was lost, do you wonder if he would check to make sure the one lost sheep would fit the new management standards?
In 1994-95-96, There were several things that happened in TWI that fit with WD's post. Well, even before that.
1. The LOYalty letter culled out those who were blocking the MOGFODAT's agenda.
2. The mark and avoid policy was defined and implemented.
3. People who had been involved with TWI from the early days were targeted as weak believers who would not be able to stand on and live the Present Truth which was presented in the new marketing program, aka Loy's new class.
And of course, regarding the Purpose Driven stuff, most people "out there" are not seeing the marketing aspect at all and think it's all godly stuff.
I KNEW when I saw how a few people were reacting to the Purpose Driven book, that part of it was bad, bad news. Fortunately, our church went on to something else after a while, and taught on the Left Behind series over the summer, which I have never bothered to read.
It did encourage me to stop going to that small group tho, which I greatly miss. But my husband is working on the night they decided to meet and they were carrying on that he wasn't there, to the point the woman mentioned above (no surprise) suggested he needed to get his hours changed. And I'm sure not going by myself!!!
quote: It did encourage me to stop going to that small group tho, which I greatly miss
After what you just told us, you miss them?
WG, there are alot of good people out there without the need to control and demean, who actually have a sense of christian values when it comes to relating to people. If they cant get loving their neighbor right I doubt they have much else of value to offer...
Im not even gonna touch on churches that model themselves after corporations, I think they were supposed to model someone else, who himself was a little less corporate or concerned with numbers
Mstar, when we started going to this group, a different couple, calm and loving, was in charge. We met on Sunday evenings. They went to Florida for the winter and this second couple took over, we got a couple of newbies in, and they started clamoring for Saturday nights for their convenience. My husband had arranged his work schedule to be off on Sundays and wasn't interested in re-arranging it. The second couple who were group leaders wanted it Saturday also. The female half is very sharp tongued and outspoken. Everybody is pretty cowed by her, even though she thinks women should be silent in the church, etc, apparently she doesn't include herself. The male half of the newbie couple was the guy who hammered me to tears, then came over afterward, gave me a brotherly whack on the shoulder and said he hoped I didn't take it personally. He also interrupted every time I said anything, which is why I think he was making a definite point.
We are not going to be going there much longer. There is a new church starting up closer to where we live. Hopefully it will be fun again. I like this church. They do teach out of the Bible and some of the minister are quite well versed. But some of them need to read 1 Cor 13 again.
I read the book in February-March, did the 40 days in 50 days. I tried leading a men's group, but the book is not suited for a small-group study.
I led my Sunday school class on the Purpose Driven Church which is what PDL is based on. That study got people think about what and to whom our church ministered best and where we could improve.
It is not a perfect book and it is not altogether deep. But it is written to spiritually weak people to begin with. It's main purpose is to point us to Christ and how we fit into his plans.
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AHAT
Yes.
My church (Baptist) is doing a kick-off tailgate party Oct. 9th complete with BBQ, moonwalk rides for the kids, the UT game and then the simulcast with Rick Warren himself at 8pm.
We will be covering it in the sunday schools and in home groups for those people who don't attend our church.
My daughters church (methodist) is also doing it in the same time frame so even though we attend different churches, we can do it together.
We're still considering being a host home.
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Nottawayfer
The church I attended in San Diego studied that book last year. It was a great time. The weekly teachings were based on it, and our small groups discussed the teachings. It was a refreshing experience because a lot of things were shared from the heart, not just because you were called upon.
I saw a great sense of "togetherness" in our congregation as a result of that book. And the feeling of togetherness was not just our congregation but with other churches in the community. My small group had women in it from other churches.
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Belle
My church starts this week. I'm pretty excited about it as I've already read the book and I'm fairly new to the church.
They're very excited and have been wearing their "Got Purpose?" t-shirts once a month to the contemporary service for a while. My t-shirt should be in this week.
The church wants people to participate so bad that the books and study aids are free. When did TWI ever do THAT???
AHAT the kick off sounds like a blast.
Wayfer Not! I love the idea of getting together with other churches. We are doing ours simultaneously with other churches in the area, but not combining groups. That is really cool.
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WhiteDove
Ok I'll be the odd man out but
I will be watching this thread with intrigue. Maybe one of you can explain what the Purpose of this book was other than to make Mr. Warren very wealthy. I read this book with a group of people I thought it sounded promising no one at the end saw any great purpose.
All the unbiblical reteric aside most of what was left seemed pretty common sense like Christianity 101 ie God wanted a family, We are not accidents Transformed by Truth ( I think that was a SNS tape) How to serve and so on...
I don't know mabe if I would have sprung for the deluxe set with the calander and key chain it would have turned out different.
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dmiller
Gee -- I'm feeling left out. I've not heard of this book before. I guess I can go to the local "Christian Bookstore" for it. Sounds popular.
-->
I went there once for a bible, and they had one shelf only, for bibles.
:(--> The entire store was filled with "feel good" parephenalia, and I don't want to categorize this book before I have read it, but it sounds like it fits the description.
I'll try to find it, and take a look at it.
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WhiteDove
Quote:
Gee -- I'm feeling left out. I've not heard of this book before. I guess I can go to the local "Christian Bookstore" for it. Sounds popular.
David
It is,I think it has sold something like two million copies.
IF you have a Sams Club near you they are pretty cheap there around $10.00.
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WhiteDove
Driven or Led? (Some Food For Thought)
Notice the difference between being "driven" and being "led":
Driven usually implies a controlling force pushing or forcing a passive subject (cattle, enemies, rebellious people, ship, etc):
"...until He has driven out His enemies from before Him." Numbers 32:21
"...you shall be driven mad because of the sight which your eyes see." Deuteronomy 28:34-35
“For the Lord has driven out from before you great and strong nations; but as for you, no one has been able to stand against you to this day." Joshua 23:9
"David took all the flocks and herds they had driven before those other livestock." 1 Samuel 30:19-20
"Will You frighten a leaf driven to and fro?" Job 13:25
"Then they will look to the earth, and see trouble and darkness, gloom of anguish; and they will be driven into darkness." Isaiah 8:22
"But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds." Jeremiah 23:3
"You shall be driven out, everyone headlong, and no one will gather those who wander off." Jeremiah 49:5
"But when his heart was lifted up, and his spirit was hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him. Then he was driven from the sons of men, his heart was made like the beasts." Daniel 5:20-21
"But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways." James 1:6-8
"Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds." James 3:4
Led or lead usually implies a choice on the part of God's people -- those who look to His Word and want to know and follow His ways:
"And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way." Exodus 13:21
Oh, send out Your light and Your truth! Let them lead me." Psalm 43:3
"O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err, and destroy the way of your paths.” Isaiah 3:12
"Lead me in Your truth and teach me, for You are the God of my salvation; on You I wait all the day." Psalm 25:5
"I will lead them in paths they have not known. I will make darkness light before them, and crooked places straight. " Isaiah 42:16
"Even there Your hand shall lead me, and Your right hand shall hold me." Psalm 139:10
"...see if there is any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." Psalm 139:24
"Teach me to do Your will, for You are my God; Your Spirit is good. Lead me in the land of uprightness." Psalm 143:10
"I will bring the blind by a way they did not know; I will lead them in paths they have not known. I will make darkness light before them, and crooked places straight. " Isaiah 42:16
"And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever." Matthew 6:13
"...for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” Revelation 7:17
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Nottawayfer
Dmiller,
Go to Walmart. You can find the book there.
I think there could be skepticism from ex-way people about this book. I already knew a lot of the principles from twi, but the difference IMHO is that the book covers it in a light of the WHOLE BODY OF CHRIST!! That is a HUGE difference from twi.
And the other differences are that it's taught from a perspective of Christ TRULY being the Head of the Church, not witnessing some stupid class. It was refreshing for me to participate in it with people who really want to strengthen their relationship with God not just get to the Advanced Class. There's a lot more heart in this book.
I would be willing to bet that the author of the book has donated a lot of books to churches. He already has a HUGE church in southern California who has already been "raised". He's teaching other churches how to be unified like he's seen in his own church. That's is a great task. But it truly is wonderful when you see it work.
I miss my church in San Diego. If any of you are interested in hearing any of the teachings from it, the website is www.cvcf.com. The pastor at that church really helped to revive my trust and love in God after twi.
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excathedra
i don't like the look of that tree
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Nottawayfer
Excie,
Trust me; there is absolutely nothing that is remotely similar to twi in this book. Had it been, I would have been the first person to back out of it.
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dmiller
Wayfer Not!, WhiteDove -- Thanks!
:)-->
I'm headed to Sam's Club today. I'm getting low on coffee, and need to get some more for next week. I'll check out the book section while there.
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excathedra
from the web site
i'll do so when He gives me pleasure.... after all these years....
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Jim
Sounds a little too much like "listening with a purpose" to me...
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WhiteDove
"The Bible knows nothing of solitary saints or spiritual hermits isolated from other believers and deprived of fellowship." [ page 130]
Really? Is that true?
The imprisoned apostle Paul, a "solitary saint" separated from his fellow believers toward the end of his life, is only one of numerous Biblical examples of faithful men and women who grew strong in faith while standing alone. Check the Psalms, the Books of Isaiah, Jeremiah and other persecuted prophets, the Gospels.... Remember that in many Communist prisons, the uncompromising Biblical faith of tortured believers brought multitudes of fellow prisoners—even cold-hearted inquisitors and torturers—to Christ. Yes, our visible God-given love for one another demonstrates a divine gift that the world craves but cannot duplicate. But only the Truth of the gospel (doctrine), made alive by the Spirit, can spark that same divine life and love in another person. "Love" without Truth cannot bring unbelievers into God's Family.
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Watered Garden
Our small group at church studied this book a chapter at a time through much of last year. I liked it right up to I think Ch. 24, the one of reproof and discipline in the church.
First some guy hammered me for no reason, using me as an example of someone who needed to be told to shut up. Then the wife of the group leader said we should get to the point where this kind of confrontation happens all the time.
I began to sweat, cry, have profuse abdominal pain and flashbacks to my pre-M&A session with the MOGFODAT of the city where we lived.
To ice the cake, I led the discussion on the chapter on love, just a week or two before. I worked hard on that, and gave it my best shot. Everybody loved it, and I was thanked for doing such a "good job." So this next week, this leader's wife announces that from now on ONLY THE MEN should lead discussions!!!!
Now of course my reaction and experience was at least in part due to my feelings about my previous experiences. But I disagree with the whole concept, because there are always little TWI-wannabes like this woman, who want to run peoples' lives. I wonder if she would respond with the meekness she wants from others if I shared James on the tongue is evil with her? (She's got a very sharp tongue and will say nasty things to people in a very loving way. Sound familiar?)
The wonderful thing is I finally understand that evil is not exclusive to TWI - there are people who thrive on that kind of put-you-down, build-me-up mentality in every denomination.
I hope this makes some sense. It is pretty specific to the specific situation I found myself in. And, as a whole, the book was just great. But it's just a book. It can't contain God and shouldn't be worshipped as if it does.
IMO.
WG
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MATILDA
Excathedra,
"After all these years," what pleasure is it that "He" would have to give you that might merit offering "real worship?"
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excathedra
forget i said anything. i already told Him i didn't mean it (which he knew).
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mstar1
Im fairly wary of anything or anyone who is 'driven',
I spent enough years in TWI being highly driven and it usually ended up in a scenario like the one Watered Garden described.
Good Luck to the rest of you, hope it works for you but I'll pass
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CoolWaters
I thought this was a book by twi...too familiar...and the only familiars I get into anymore are the ones that don't tell me what to do...
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WhiteDove
The Power Players behind the BOOK and what they are selling.
As most of you know, Rick Warren, the founding pastor of Saddleback Church in Southern California, has been leading the way and breaking new ground in today's Church Growth Movement. With over 50,000 names on his church roll, he models the success of the church management process he outlined in his earlier book, The Purpose-Driven Church.
Peter Drucker the legendary management guru began teaching large corporations decades ago and this has now been applied to God's churches as well as to communities and governments around the world. Since the new methods seemed to "work" equally well for churches as for corporations -- and since the measured results offer statistical "proof" of "success" -- pastors from countless nations have embraced and implemented Drucker's marketing approach to "doing church."
In a 2002 article in Business Week titled "Peter Drucker's Search for Community," Ken Witty describes the world view that drives Drucker's plans and purpose:
"He brings a comunitarian philosophy to his consulting.... He said that what he's all about is this search for community, the search for where people and organizations find community for noneconomic satisfaction....
"A lot of his ideas have become so accepted that it's hard for anyone to understand how original they were at the time he introduced them. It's sort of like Freud and psychoanalysis. Peter was the first, for example, to help managers understand that they had to define their businesses from a customer's perspective.
Focusing on the "customer's perspective" brings success. People feel satisfied. They come and they buy. When this process is applied to churches, it works! With polls and surveys, a church can easily uncover the "felt needs" of the unbelievers in the local community -- then target their services to their intended consumers.
Why focus on the felt needs of unbelievers rather than the true needs of God's family? Doesn't this strategy turn God's principles upside down?
"...in this movement, it is imperative that unbelievers are brought into the church; otherwise, the process of continual change cannot begin. There must be an antithesis (unbelievers) present to oppose the thesis (believers), in order to move towards consensus.(compromise), and move the believers away from their moral absolutism (resistance to change). If all members of the church stand firm on the Word of God, and it’s final authority in all doctrine and tradition, then the church cannot and will not change. This is common faith. Soon, we will see why these “change agents” are pushing so hard for change to occur in the church."
Pastor Warren's current tutor in this management process is CMS a "full-service custom marketing and communications agency head-quartered in Covina, California." It's shows its mission:
"At CMS, we view it as our mission to help our clients grow their businesses. We do this by working with each client identifying opportunities and developing innovative, creative and profitable services which assist them in the execution of effective marketing, sales and communications program.... We are best able to serve clients when they allow us to act as partners.... CMS is made up of a team of talented individuals whose dedication and expertise have earned them a solid reputation for creating results.
While CMS partners includes secular giants such as Quaker and Isuzu Motors America, it also serves clients such as the City of West Covina, "Purpose Driven Ministries," "Saddleback Valley Community Church," "Smalley Relationship Center" and "Walk Thru the Bible." The latter was founded and led by Bruce Wilkinson, author of the well marketed bestseller , The Prayer of Jabez.
No wonder curious visitors are flocking to Purpose-Driven churches. Small wonder pastors around the world are watching, listening, ready to follow.
Peter Drucker's unbiblical emphasis on success by man's standards should stir great alarm among Christians. What happens to people who don't fit his blueprint for productive human resources? Sarah Leslie, co-author of The Pied Pipers of Purpose, a vital document that makes the complexities and connections behind the new management systems understandable, wrote:
"We’ve come across numerous references in the Purpose-Driven literature to a concept called 'abandonment.' It is a Peter Drucker concept that has to do with businesses abandoning parts of their business that don’t make money. In the private sector (churches) it translates into churches abandoning projects that don’t produce pre-defined 'results' (the measurable kind, 'outcomes,' etc.). This also means abandoning people who don’t go along with the flow — the 'laggards' who won’t participate in the transformation. A church split is seen as a good thing, in that it gets rid of those people who are blocking progress towards church restructuring."
If someone were to rewrite the parable of the Shepherd who leaves the 99 sheep to search for the one that was lost, do you wonder if he would check to make sure the one lost sheep would fit the new management standards?
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Watered Garden
In 1994-95-96, There were several things that happened in TWI that fit with WD's post. Well, even before that.
1. The LOYalty letter culled out those who were blocking the MOGFODAT's agenda.
2. The mark and avoid policy was defined and implemented.
3. People who had been involved with TWI from the early days were targeted as weak believers who would not be able to stand on and live the Present Truth which was presented in the new marketing program, aka Loy's new class.
And of course, regarding the Purpose Driven stuff, most people "out there" are not seeing the marketing aspect at all and think it's all godly stuff.
I KNEW when I saw how a few people were reacting to the Purpose Driven book, that part of it was bad, bad news. Fortunately, our church went on to something else after a while, and taught on the Left Behind series over the summer, which I have never bothered to read.
It did encourage me to stop going to that small group tho, which I greatly miss. But my husband is working on the night they decided to meet and they were carrying on that he wasn't there, to the point the woman mentioned above (no surprise) suggested he needed to get his hours changed. And I'm sure not going by myself!!!
WG
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mstar1
After what you just told us, you miss them?
WG, there are alot of good people out there without the need to control and demean, who actually have a sense of christian values when it comes to relating to people. If they cant get loving their neighbor right I doubt they have much else of value to offer...
Im not even gonna touch on churches that model themselves after corporations, I think they were supposed to model someone else, who himself was a little less corporate or concerned with numbers
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Watered Garden
Mstar, when we started going to this group, a different couple, calm and loving, was in charge. We met on Sunday evenings. They went to Florida for the winter and this second couple took over, we got a couple of newbies in, and they started clamoring for Saturday nights for their convenience. My husband had arranged his work schedule to be off on Sundays and wasn't interested in re-arranging it. The second couple who were group leaders wanted it Saturday also. The female half is very sharp tongued and outspoken. Everybody is pretty cowed by her, even though she thinks women should be silent in the church, etc, apparently she doesn't include herself. The male half of the newbie couple was the guy who hammered me to tears, then came over afterward, gave me a brotherly whack on the shoulder and said he hoped I didn't take it personally. He also interrupted every time I said anything, which is why I think he was making a definite point.
We are not going to be going there much longer. There is a new church starting up closer to where we live. Hopefully it will be fun again. I like this church. They do teach out of the Bible and some of the minister are quite well versed. But some of them need to read 1 Cor 13 again.
I read over briefly the link Dovie posted.
HOLY SH--! Sounds like the TWIlight zone to me!
WG
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def59
I read the book in February-March, did the 40 days in 50 days. I tried leading a men's group, but the book is not suited for a small-group study.
I led my Sunday school class on the Purpose Driven Church which is what PDL is based on. That study got people think about what and to whom our church ministered best and where we could improve.
It is not a perfect book and it is not altogether deep. But it is written to spiritually weak people to begin with. It's main purpose is to point us to Christ and how we fit into his plans.
The focus is not about us, but others.
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