Lifted, if I remember correctly, Steve charges between $5,000 - $8,000 per day plus expenses. And I think it's well worth the money when you're talking about getting a loved one back, emotionally healthy and out of the clutches of such destruction. We were willing to pay whatever he would have charged.
Steve suggests meeting in a neutral place, but a private place, like a hotel room suite. It's not supposed to have a lot of people and it's to be a discussion, not a yelling match and both sides are free to speak. In fact, a lot of the meeting is asking questions and stimulating thought and doubts that way. It's not a yelling or arguing match. No one "throws" anything. :)-->
In my case I had lined up a couple of pretty high up leadership that my ex respected a great deal to share what they really knew first hand. I also had someone here at GSpot who is a master at handling the doctrinal issues willing to help. The discussion would have just been 3 or 4 of us including Steve.
I had absolutely no credibility with my ex and he considered me a complete and utter idiot, so anything doctrinal that would have come out of my mouth would have been shot down no matter how right I was. Steve's methods are pretty detailed in his book "Freedom of Mind: Enabling People to Think for Themselves" and it's a process of helping people remember their "authentic self" and getting them to think about what they're learning and living in the cult atmosphere. The discussion session is really the final step with some people and with others, like my situation, it's the last resort because nothing else has worked.
A few weeks before this was to happen he asked for a divorce. That's about the only reason we didn't follow through with trying it - that, and I don't know if I would have been able to get him to agree to a meeting. I seriously doubt if it would have worked, though. He's so adamant and thoroughly indoctrinated in TWIt logic. I think, though, that Steve's processes would work with other people who aren't like my ex.
The discussion session is really the final step with some people and with others, like my situation, it's the last resort because nothing else has worked.
Well it be good news if such a discussion really is the "final step". Unfortunately for me, it wasn't in my time.
That amount you quoted does indeed seem "astronomical" to me. The key words being, plus expenses. If you have to bring several people in, as was done in my deprogramming, expenses can run up. In the "discussion" that you describe, it wouldnt be quite so bad. But 5 to 8 grand a day BEYOND expenses, even if it were split between four or so people (which I doubt, since you said YOU were lining up the other people) does seem more like a get rich quick scheme. Especially when someone may be "willing to pay whatever he would have charged".
Belle what you describe is not the deprogramming of the 1970's & 80's. It sounds more like an AA intervention to me.
Back then people were kidnapped from their homes, bound, and held against their will. They were deprived of food and water. Deprogrammers would scream them and sleep deprieve them. The deprogramming could take weeks so these unfortunate people were tied in a bed for long periods of time.
What would have happened if your then husband met with you and all these folks, and decided he wanted no part of the deprogramming? Would he have been allowed to leave? Would you have held him against his will? Would he have been bound and sleep deprived?
" ... charges between $5,000 - $8,000 per day plus expenses ... in a neutral place ... a private place ... a hotel room suite ... a discussion ... not a yelling match ... both sides are free to speak ... asking questions and stimulating thought ... It's not a yelling or arguing match"
In 1985, when we had a twig in Atwater Ca, one of our followers was kidnapped for deprogramming. Later when we did see him again and he returned to our twig. He said that it had cost his parents around $40k, not $8k. Yes a neutral place, a rented hotel room, and a very long discussion, lots of yelling, both sides free to speak in that no body gagged him, questioning, grilling yelling and arguing. They kept him awake for 3 days and submitted him to their arguments, before un-tying him and releasing him.
Once in 1987, I was in San Diego for a couple months. There was a group in the Navy called 'The Navigators' operating to evangelize through-out the Navy and to deal with 'cult' involvement. Well they got permission, and I was tag-teamed for one week. Stayed in that room, no sleep, a team of guys pulling shifts yelling, screaming, and arguing. Scripture, church history, and logic, I was accused of every so called evil that The Way had been reported of doing. Then I got orders out of there. Soon afterwards The Navigators were officially dis-banded.
Basically folks, what the anti-'cult' organizations are trying to communicate when they support this 'interventionist' activity (even with one as 'civilized' as Hassan's) is that while you're in the 'cult', you can't or are incapable of making decisions on your own. That you can't think for yourself enough to live your own life. That you are more or less, legally and mentally incompetent. That's basically what it all boils down to, regardless of what song-and-dance terminology they use. And they want to intervene to save you from yourself, since you are too 'brainwashed' to do it for yourself.
Okay, since that is their goal, there is, beleive it or not, a legal way to accomplish that goal. Its called a Mental Competency Hearing, and its done in a courtroom in front of the appropriate judge, along with an attorney for both sides, and all the 'experts' that both sides wish to bring to make their case.
Want to know why deprogrammers/exit counselors/interventionists won't go for it? (IMNSHO) Its because of the following:
1) BOTH sides are represented/advised by their respective attorneys, and has to be done in a public court of law. (Whereas in even the most user-friendly of exit counseling situations, the 'cultee' has nobody to represent/speak with him except himself)
2) $$$$$. Dollars. LOTS and LOTS of dollars. Moolah. High rate of cash outflow. ... And more $$$$$. And its usually done by the 'prosecuting' side. Ie., the 'deprogrammers', as it were. (Again, in 'exit counseling' cases, the cash comes from the frantic relatives, and NO financial burden is from the 'intervention consultant'. ... Yeah, what a business plan! -->)
3) And this is where the main pain in the a$$ comes in. .... Proof. They (the accusing side) MUST prove beyond at *least* a reasonable doubt (if not beyond any shadow of a doubt, which is how *I* think it should be done) that the defendant is mentally incompetent, and must be put under the 'protective care' of the accusing side. Or some other such arrangement. ... Ask any attorney. Proving your side against the defendent is a b*tch! (Whereas under Hassan's model, the burden of proof rests squarely upon 'defendent' that he is NOT under 'mind control'. Can anyone see what's wrong with this picture yet?)
Now, back to the courtroom version, realize that simply bringing up the crap done in 'cults' isn't in and of itself is enough. What must be proven is that the 'cultee' is unable to think for himself such that he cannot live his life or make any decisions. And the legal standard of proving such is quite high. (Again, such a standard is painfully lacking in the Patrick/Hassan/Ross Version of a Competency 'Hearing'))
Want to know something? That's the way it should be! And I'll be willing to bet even $$money$$ that many, if not ALL deprogramming/exit counseling/intervention cases would fail **miserably** (ie., within the first 15 minutes after the bailiff says "The courtroom will now come to order!") under this standard. And that many, if not all of the aforementioned deprogrammers/exit counselors/interventionists know of such legal avenues, and know of such dismal chances.
Thus, their 'shortcut' tactics.
And if they whine about "not being able to afford the legal route"? ... At $5,000-$8,000 per day? Plus expenses?? ... Bull paddies!! Besides, w/o the 'expenses', what is that 5-8 grande for? For simply sitting on his a$$ and gabbing anti-cult material? Puh-leeeze! That's more in one day than I make in 3 months! And I do professional work.
Even without the 'kidnapping them in a van and tying them up till they break' routine, there is something still very wrong here. And keep in mind that the *vast majority* of us got out, and we didn't need any of this crap.
What would have happened if your then husband met with you and all these folks, and decided he wanted no part of the deprogramming? Would he have been allowed to leave? Would you have held him against his will? Would he have been bound and sleep deprived?
If he decided he wanted to leave he would be free to leave. That's why I think in my case it wouldn't have worked. My ex is adamant about not even considering that he is being lied to, manipulated and controlled. He would not have been tied up, yelled at or sleep deprived.
I realize this is extremely different from what y'all experienced, however I DO know of some situations where it has worked among friends and acquaintances here in my neck of the woods. The difference being the people were either not in their particular cult for very long and/or they were young college age or fresh out of college and the fact that their family loved them enough to go to that much trouble probably played as much of a part in the success as hearing from former very high up members of said cult.
Another key phrase Belle used was "because nothing else has worked". Well, in my case, nothing else was tried...too much Jim Jones fear flying around. But I bring this up because time was evidently not considered when deprogrammings were done or attempted...that is, trusting an adult to make his/her own decisions, even if it is not what the family members or others consider a desirable decision.
Of course, many were allowed to make their own decisions, and many eventually decided to leave TWI on their own without being yanked out. They decided such often, to be sure, because of bad things going on. But the idea behind the deprogrammings was that nobody could or would ever decide to leave on their own, no matter how bad things got, because we were completely controlled. Thus, time was not given a chance because the Lifton doctrine said it would never work.
What I would like to see is someone pitching in who went through a deprogramming and did/does NOT view it as a terrible thing. IMO that does not justify deprogramming such as I went through in the least, but we could have an interesting discussion. Actually, I had some of thoise discussions, to some extent anyway, with someone who was around the forums a few years ago.
Once in 1987, I was in San Diego for a couple months. There was a group in the Navy called 'The Navigators' operating to evangelize through-out the Navy and to deal with 'cult' involvement. Well they got permission, and I was tag-teamed for one week. Stayed in that room, no sleep, a team of guys pulling shifts yelling, screaming, and arguing. Scripture, church history, and logic, I was accused of every so called evil that The Way had been reported of doing. Then I got orders out of there. Soon afterwards The Navigators were officially dis-banded.
Whne you say "well they got permission", does that mean the U.S. Navy gave them the okay to "tag-team" you?
Maybe you could explain exactly what the conditions were you had to endure? Were you held against your will? Would they allow you to sleep if you desired?
The person who said that he'd love to hear from people who went through it (deprogramming), then ignored the subject when he found out that I considered it a terrible experience, did not go through the experience himself.
"Whne you say "well they got permission", does that mean the U.S. Navy gave them the okay to "tag-team" you?
Maybe you could explain exactly what the conditions were you had to endure? Were you held against your will? Would they allow you to sleep if you desired?
Sounds like pretty strange actions by the Navy."
I left the Navy for a period of four years [1983-1987], when I went back in, I reported to San Diego Bootcamp, The Veterans [or Nav-Vets] were kept in a separate barracks with a fence around it [so our behavior would not corrupt the new recruits]. We left that enclosure only with the chief's permission, after being inspected to ensure that we were presentable.
Some of the Nav-Vets were held in that enclosure for as long as six months awaiting PSD to get all of their records [pay, medical, dental, personnel] together and to get orders. I witnessed to a couple of the guys, and one weekend got permission and took a few to a local twig. The next week the bunking assignments were changed, and I had roomies that were all 'Navigators'. Talking to the chief about it, I learned that the group had influence through-out the Navy and were a pet project of the Chaplains Corp. Apparently 'cults' had become some issue with the pentagon.
While stationed at Nav-Vets company San Diego RTC; I was never beaten, I was never tied-up, I was never electro-shocked; so overall I was better treated that I had been as a child.
I was tag-teamed for one week by 6 men. They pulling rotating shifts to argue the scripture with me, to read various books detailing the evils that TWI had done, and to convince me the 'truth' of the trinity. There was yelling and screaming. Overall I only went a few days without sleep, I believe that I did get a couple hours of rest a couple of those days. They had prepared lists of Scriptures, and highlighted arguments in a couple books for 'witnessing to cult members'. I was accused of every so called evil that The Way had been reported of doing.
Some Nav-Vets that I saw in that compound were dragging their feet about getting orders from there. By blowing off appointments and not really helping the various offices to generate new records for them to be able to return to full active service. I saw that my opportunity was in getting orders and shipping out as fast as possible. Once I saw that the chief was not in a position to assist me, I got out of the compound at every opportunity to make trips to dental, and medical and PSD. I had to be interviewed by a 'Special Projects Office Manager' to be re-screened for sub-duty, It turned out to be an old bubblehead friend Tom Fox, who I had served with on the George C. Marshall. He helped to expedite my processing back into the submarine service.
During that period of time I was escorted by one or more of the Navigators, pretty much 24 hours a day. I did get a bit of assistance from another sailor, in distracting them. They never attempted to physically assault me, and I did not assault them, it would have held me there for months awaiting mast.
On a Friday afternoon my orders were finally faxed, I was packed, with the assistance of a friend I got off that base and to the airport within a couple hours. [Navy orders customarily have 4 days 'proceed' time, which are separate from the travel time, to allow the servicemember to pack and to check-out from the previous command, and to ship household goods, etc] I was gone before those boneheads realized that I was gone. I would imagine that they had further ‘fun’ planned for me for over that coming weekend.
Within a couple years The Navigators were officially dis-banded. They proved to be a far greater danger to the Navy than any threat from any other cult.
However in 1993, when I reported onboard the USS Casimir Pulaski, the previous Protestant Lay-Leader had been a Navigator. During my check-in process the Boat’s XO made it clear that I would likely be assigned as their new Lay-Leader. But I told later that I had an interview with one of the Lts. When I did meet with him, I found that he had been their lay-leader. He interrogated me about my background, and beliefs for a couple of hours. He tried very hard to find something that he could use as hard evidence of why I should not be the Lay-leader. But by having my ordination, he really did not have anything other than the obvious differences between any two denominations. The CO did assign me as the Lay Leader, to perform all on-board Worship services for Protestants and LDS. Onboard I did find a lot of Navigator literature, which I destroyed.
When unsucessful attempts are made to argue wayfers out of way-world, the wayfer is either unwilling to listen to any argument, or the argument is unpersuasive.
If the argument focusses on abuses or other questionable practices, the wayfer has either already heard about them, and dismissed them as either false or unimportant; or has not heard about them and will question the source of the accuser. It is very easy for a wayfer to deny the truth of any evidence presented, to label the victim as a disgruntled ex-wayfer who is "copped out", or as possessed.
Even if the wayfer believes that some or all of the accusations are true, it is possible to minimize them as abberations, or rationalize that the end justifies the means: these things are bad, but they taught me The Word.
Arguing against Way doctrine poses other problems. Much of what The Way is also believed by other denominations. The Unitarians and Jehovah's Winesses don't believe in the Trinity, Catholic charismatics, Pentecostals, and other denominations speak in tongues, many groups require tithing; Wierwille drew from so many sources that most of it isn't unique. Most wayfers learn early on to trust Wierwille's definitions and interpretations. Any dismantling of his doctrine will probably require relearning definitions of words that Wierwille changed. Heck, most of us were willing to accept his claim that "some old document", long since lost, was enough to document that illegitimate boys did the bar-mitzvah at age 12, despite any evidence to back up the claim, despite the bible not saying that what Jesus was doing at age 12 was a bar-mitvah...etc. We swallowed Wierwille's definitions of Greek words when we had a lexicon in our hands that defined them differently.
To get to the point: people aren't going to change their minds unless they are ready to change their minds. I wasn't ready to listen until I had reached a point where I had sufficient doubt in what I was hearing.
Hell, there is ample documentation that numerous representatives of the Catholic Church in the U.S. sexually molested young boys and that their higher-ups swept it under the rug, and then moved them somewhere else where they could start again.
There have been convictions, more than can be said about the leaders of our little cult, not to mention the policy of burning heretics, and the like in centuries past.
Yet there are plenty of people who have no problem remaining Catholics.
But we weren't capable of making our own decisions -->
"When unsucessful attempts are made to argue wayfers out of way-world, the wayfer is either unwilling to listen to any argument, or the argument is unpersuasive."
I was possibly on the verge of being persuaded. I prayed a lot. I remember not really being able to think clearly about much of anything. I was just tired, and the more they talked and talked, got me more and more confused.
Much more and I would have likely began worshipping boot-polish if it got them to go away from me.
"If the argument focusses on abuses or other questionable practices, ..."
Having been raised in the Baptist church, I was fully familiar with the idea of ministers sneaking aroung with the church secratary or the town whores. About the time that I turned 18 I had been a member of a Methodist church, during the time-frame that se discovered that the conference that the churches paid tithes into had gone to South America and paid for guns for rebels who had recnetly killed a group of nuns in a mission.
So comparing abuses to abuses, I admit that I did not care.
"... the wayfer has either already heard about them."
I had.
"... and dismissed them as either false or unimportant;"
I dont think that it surprized me all that much, I think that on some level, I expected it from an upper level minister.
So I guess that is my label: dismissed them as unimportant.
"Much of what The Way is also believed by other denominations ..."
I was possibly on the verge of being persuaded. I prayed a lot. I remember not really being able to think clearly about much of anything. I was just tired, and the more they talked and talked, got me more and more confused.
Much more and I would have likely began worshipping boot-polish if it got them to go away from me.
Yet Another Tactic that isn't practiced in a legal competancy hearing, ....
... and another advantage that has over the kind of crap Galen went thru.
I wasn't clear that I was talking about non-deprogramming-type persuasion, such as a discussion over the kitchen table, or reading literature. Getting locked away and ganged up on necessarily introduces different circumstances.
I remember when I was stationed in Okinawa in 1975 hearing about the Navagators from some who were in our group - the Hansen Christian Center. I never actually met any of these Navigators myself, but I recall several of our group who had met them. They described them as completely paranoid "fundamental" fanatics. The type who would not bend in their beliefs at all, even when proven absolutely wrong. Because of these witnesses, most of us tended to avoid anyone calling themselves a Navigator.
With that in mind, it's a wonder they didn't break you, Galen, before you were transfered.
"I remember ... the Navagators ... They described them as completely paranoid "fundamental" fanatics. The type who would not bend in their beliefs at all, even when proven absolutely wrong. Because of these witnesses, most of us tended to avoid anyone calling themselves a Navigator."
I was wondering if anyone else had heard of them, thank you for stepping forward with confirmation that such a group existed.
:-)
"With that in mind, it's a wonder they didn't break you, Galen, before you were transfered."
Thanx.
They say [No, I have no idea who 'they' are, it is just a common saying to say: "They say" ], that commonly people repeat their errors. Maybe not individuals, but at least within groups.
During my last tour 1997-2001, in Europe, it did appear that some brilliant Chaplain somewhere had discovered a vault filled with old 'Navigator' junk and that he had started spilling that junk out to his congregate.
We had a guy [did not work for me, this guy was in another section], who was among the 'later' version of Navigators. His Watch-Commander found him at 02:00 on post [he was assigned as gate-guard for one of our bases, Agnano], he had taken all his bullets out of his magazines, and lined them up on the window ledge of his guard-shack, he had his Bible out and he was preaching a sermon to those bullets. He had named his bullets, with the names of various Catholic 'saints', and he was preaching to them. His Watch-Commander stood there and let him finish his sermon, while someone else was on his way to take-over that guard-shack and releive the 'Navigator'. We never saw that 'Navigator' again.
During a discussion with Stephen and Patty Faye Roberts the acts of deprogramming were also praticed by TWI. She admitted to me that TWI would go after the ones who were snatched by deprogrammers and brought back.
Why would TWI do this? Is it because those believers wanted to be in TWI and they were going to save them from evil spirits?
"During a discussion with Stephen and Patty Faye Roberts the acts of deprogramming were also praticed by TWI. She admitted to me that TWI would go after the ones who were snatched by deprogrammers and brought back."
Your saying that these two told you that:
1. TWI also practiced 'De-Programming' techniques?, and
2. that TWI would approach followers who had been 'de-programmed', to bring them back into fellowship?
If TWI did, I dont think that I have heard of it.
"Why would TWI do this? Is it because those believers wanted to be in TWI and they were going to save them from evil spirits?"
I understand that TWI used possible 'programming-techniques', I am not sure whether they ever tried to use any 'De-Programming-techniques'. But I have no idea of what was done at HQ.
Would TWI go after somenoe who had been 'successfully' De-Programmed? I would not imagine so.
If someone that I knew had been through a 'successful' de-programming, I could see where I might approach them to say "Hi", to see if they are okay, to ask if there was anything that I could do to help them. Food, water a chance to sleep, maybe bandages, would all be appropriate.
"Evil spirits"? I never heard about this one, it could be that I just was not a follower of TWI long enough [1979-1997].
"During a discussion with Stephen and Patty Faye Roberts the acts of deprogramming were also praticed by TWI. She admitted to me that TWI would go after the ones who were snatched by deprogrammers and brought back."
Your saying that these two told you that:
1. TWI also practiced 'De-Programming' techniques?, and
2. that TWI would approach followers who had been 'de-programmed', to bring them back into fellowship?
If TWI did, I dont think that I have heard of it.
I never heard of it either. I would be interested in hearing of one case when it DID happen.
It certainly didnt happen in my case. Not that there was any publicity involved in my case. But it didnt even happen after I accidently ran into BT, my former 8th corps bro in town a year or so after the event, while he was the local ruler of this state/region.
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Belle
Lifted, if I remember correctly, Steve charges between $5,000 - $8,000 per day plus expenses. And I think it's well worth the money when you're talking about getting a loved one back, emotionally healthy and out of the clutches of such destruction. We were willing to pay whatever he would have charged.
Steve suggests meeting in a neutral place, but a private place, like a hotel room suite. It's not supposed to have a lot of people and it's to be a discussion, not a yelling match and both sides are free to speak. In fact, a lot of the meeting is asking questions and stimulating thought and doubts that way. It's not a yelling or arguing match. No one "throws" anything.
:)-->
In my case I had lined up a couple of pretty high up leadership that my ex respected a great deal to share what they really knew first hand. I also had someone here at GSpot who is a master at handling the doctrinal issues willing to help. The discussion would have just been 3 or 4 of us including Steve.
I had absolutely no credibility with my ex and he considered me a complete and utter idiot, so anything doctrinal that would have come out of my mouth would have been shot down no matter how right I was. Steve's methods are pretty detailed in his book "Freedom of Mind: Enabling People to Think for Themselves" and it's a process of helping people remember their "authentic self" and getting them to think about what they're learning and living in the cult atmosphere. The discussion session is really the final step with some people and with others, like my situation, it's the last resort because nothing else has worked.
A few weeks before this was to happen he asked for a divorce. That's about the only reason we didn't follow through with trying it - that, and I don't know if I would have been able to get him to agree to a meeting. I seriously doubt if it would have worked, though. He's so adamant and thoroughly indoctrinated in TWIt logic. I think, though, that Steve's processes would work with other people who aren't like my ex.
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Lifted Up
Well it be good news if such a discussion really is the "final step". Unfortunately for me, it wasn't in my time.
That amount you quoted does indeed seem "astronomical" to me. The key words being, plus expenses. If you have to bring several people in, as was done in my deprogramming, expenses can run up. In the "discussion" that you describe, it wouldnt be quite so bad. But 5 to 8 grand a day BEYOND expenses, even if it were split between four or so people (which I doubt, since you said YOU were lining up the other people) does seem more like a get rich quick scheme. Especially when someone may be "willing to pay whatever he would have charged".
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Stayed Too Long
Belle what you describe is not the deprogramming of the 1970's & 80's. It sounds more like an AA intervention to me.
Back then people were kidnapped from their homes, bound, and held against their will. They were deprived of food and water. Deprogrammers would scream them and sleep deprieve them. The deprogramming could take weeks so these unfortunate people were tied in a bed for long periods of time.
What would have happened if your then husband met with you and all these folks, and decided he wanted no part of the deprogramming? Would he have been allowed to leave? Would you have held him against his will? Would he have been bound and sleep deprived?
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Galen
Belle:
" ... charges between $5,000 - $8,000 per day plus expenses ... in a neutral place ... a private place ... a hotel room suite ... a discussion ... not a yelling match ... both sides are free to speak ... asking questions and stimulating thought ... It's not a yelling or arguing match"
In 1985, when we had a twig in Atwater Ca, one of our followers was kidnapped for deprogramming. Later when we did see him again and he returned to our twig. He said that it had cost his parents around $40k, not $8k. Yes a neutral place, a rented hotel room, and a very long discussion, lots of yelling, both sides free to speak in that no body gagged him, questioning, grilling yelling and arguing. They kept him awake for 3 days and submitted him to their arguments, before un-tying him and releasing him.
Once in 1987, I was in San Diego for a couple months. There was a group in the Navy called 'The Navigators' operating to evangelize through-out the Navy and to deal with 'cult' involvement. Well they got permission, and I was tag-teamed for one week. Stayed in that room, no sleep, a team of guys pulling shifts yelling, screaming, and arguing. Scripture, church history, and logic, I was accused of every so called evil that The Way had been reported of doing. Then I got orders out of there. Soon afterwards The Navigators were officially dis-banded.
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GarthP2000
Basically folks, what the anti-'cult' organizations are trying to communicate when they support this 'interventionist' activity (even with one as 'civilized' as Hassan's) is that while you're in the 'cult', you can't or are incapable of making decisions on your own. That you can't think for yourself enough to live your own life. That you are more or less, legally and mentally incompetent. That's basically what it all boils down to, regardless of what song-and-dance terminology they use. And they want to intervene to save you from yourself, since you are too 'brainwashed' to do it for yourself.
Okay, since that is their goal, there is, beleive it or not, a legal way to accomplish that goal. Its called a Mental Competency Hearing, and its done in a courtroom in front of the appropriate judge, along with an attorney for both sides, and all the 'experts' that both sides wish to bring to make their case.
Want to know why deprogrammers/exit counselors/interventionists won't go for it? (IMNSHO) Its because of the following:
1) BOTH sides are represented/advised by their respective attorneys, and has to be done in a public court of law. (Whereas in even the most user-friendly of exit counseling situations, the 'cultee' has nobody to represent/speak with him except himself)
2) $$$$$. Dollars. LOTS and LOTS of dollars. Moolah. High rate of cash outflow. ... And more $$$$$. And its usually done by the 'prosecuting' side. Ie., the 'deprogrammers', as it were. (Again, in 'exit counseling' cases, the cash comes from the frantic relatives, and NO financial burden is from the 'intervention consultant'. ... Yeah, what a business plan!
-->)
3) And this is where the main pain in the a$$ comes in. .... Proof. They (the accusing side) MUST prove beyond at *least* a reasonable doubt (if not beyond any shadow of a doubt, which is how *I* think it should be done) that the defendant is mentally incompetent, and must be put under the 'protective care' of the accusing side. Or some other such arrangement. ... Ask any attorney. Proving your side against the defendent is a b*tch! (Whereas under Hassan's model, the burden of proof rests squarely upon 'defendent' that he is NOT under 'mind control'. Can anyone see what's wrong with this picture yet?)
Now, back to the courtroom version, realize that simply bringing up the crap done in 'cults' isn't in and of itself is enough. What must be proven is that the 'cultee' is unable to think for himself such that he cannot live his life or make any decisions. And the legal standard of proving such is quite high. (Again, such a standard is painfully lacking in the Patrick/Hassan/Ross Version of a Competency 'Hearing'))
Want to know something? That's the way it should be! And I'll be willing to bet even $$money$$ that many, if not ALL deprogramming/exit counseling/intervention cases would fail **miserably** (ie., within the first 15 minutes after the bailiff says "The courtroom will now come to order!") under this standard. And that many, if not all of the aforementioned deprogrammers/exit counselors/interventionists know of such legal avenues, and know of such dismal chances.
Thus, their 'shortcut' tactics.
And if they whine about "not being able to afford the legal route"? ... At $5,000-$8,000 per day? Plus expenses??
... Bull paddies!! Besides, w/o the 'expenses', what is that 5-8 grande for? For simply sitting on his a$$ and gabbing anti-cult material? Puh-leeeze! That's more in one day than I make in 3 months! And I do professional work. 
Even without the 'kidnapping them in a van and tying them up till they break' routine, there is something still very wrong here. And keep in mind that the *vast majority* of us got out, and we didn't need any of this crap.
(Getting down off of my b*tch box now)
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Belle
If he decided he wanted to leave he would be free to leave. That's why I think in my case it wouldn't have worked. My ex is adamant about not even considering that he is being lied to, manipulated and controlled. He would not have been tied up, yelled at or sleep deprived.
I realize this is extremely different from what y'all experienced, however I DO know of some situations where it has worked among friends and acquaintances here in my neck of the woods. The difference being the people were either not in their particular cult for very long and/or they were young college age or fresh out of college and the fact that their family loved them enough to go to that much trouble probably played as much of a part in the success as hearing from former very high up members of said cult.
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Lifted Up
Another key phrase Belle used was "because nothing else has worked". Well, in my case, nothing else was tried...too much Jim Jones fear flying around. But I bring this up because time was evidently not considered when deprogrammings were done or attempted...that is, trusting an adult to make his/her own decisions, even if it is not what the family members or others consider a desirable decision.
Of course, many were allowed to make their own decisions, and many eventually decided to leave TWI on their own without being yanked out. They decided such often, to be sure, because of bad things going on. But the idea behind the deprogrammings was that nobody could or would ever decide to leave on their own, no matter how bad things got, because we were completely controlled. Thus, time was not given a chance because the Lifton doctrine said it would never work.
What I would like to see is someone pitching in who went through a deprogramming and did/does NOT view it as a terrible thing. IMO that does not justify deprogramming such as I went through in the least, but we could have an interesting discussion. Actually, I had some of thoise discussions, to some extent anyway, with someone who was around the forums a few years ago.
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GarthP2000
Why does a question like that have the distinct familiar ring similar to:
"What I would like to see is someone pitching in who went through a lynching and did/does NOT view it as a terrible thing."
Hhmmm?
-->
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Stayed Too Long
Whne you say "well they got permission", does that mean the U.S. Navy gave them the okay to "tag-team" you?
Maybe you could explain exactly what the conditions were you had to endure? Were you held against your will? Would they allow you to sleep if you desired?
Sounds like pretty strange actions by the Navy.
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Stayed Too Long
Gotta agree with you.
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Lifted Up
So do I. That is why I would like to see it.
The person who said that he'd love to hear from people who went through it (deprogramming), then ignored the subject when he found out that I considered it a terrible experience, did not go through the experience himself.
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Galen
Stayed Too Long:
"Whne you say "well they got permission", does that mean the U.S. Navy gave them the okay to "tag-team" you?
Maybe you could explain exactly what the conditions were you had to endure? Were you held against your will? Would they allow you to sleep if you desired?
Sounds like pretty strange actions by the Navy."
I left the Navy for a period of four years [1983-1987], when I went back in, I reported to San Diego Bootcamp, The Veterans [or Nav-Vets] were kept in a separate barracks with a fence around it [so our behavior would not corrupt the new recruits]. We left that enclosure only with the chief's permission, after being inspected to ensure that we were presentable.
Some of the Nav-Vets were held in that enclosure for as long as six months awaiting PSD to get all of their records [pay, medical, dental, personnel] together and to get orders. I witnessed to a couple of the guys, and one weekend got permission and took a few to a local twig. The next week the bunking assignments were changed, and I had roomies that were all 'Navigators'. Talking to the chief about it, I learned that the group had influence through-out the Navy and were a pet project of the Chaplains Corp. Apparently 'cults' had become some issue with the pentagon.
While stationed at Nav-Vets company San Diego RTC; I was never beaten, I was never tied-up, I was never electro-shocked; so overall I was better treated that I had been as a child.
I was tag-teamed for one week by 6 men. They pulling rotating shifts to argue the scripture with me, to read various books detailing the evils that TWI had done, and to convince me the 'truth' of the trinity. There was yelling and screaming. Overall I only went a few days without sleep, I believe that I did get a couple hours of rest a couple of those days. They had prepared lists of Scriptures, and highlighted arguments in a couple books for 'witnessing to cult members'. I was accused of every so called evil that The Way had been reported of doing.
Some Nav-Vets that I saw in that compound were dragging their feet about getting orders from there. By blowing off appointments and not really helping the various offices to generate new records for them to be able to return to full active service. I saw that my opportunity was in getting orders and shipping out as fast as possible. Once I saw that the chief was not in a position to assist me, I got out of the compound at every opportunity to make trips to dental, and medical and PSD. I had to be interviewed by a 'Special Projects Office Manager' to be re-screened for sub-duty, It turned out to be an old bubblehead friend Tom Fox, who I had served with on the George C. Marshall. He helped to expedite my processing back into the submarine service.
During that period of time I was escorted by one or more of the Navigators, pretty much 24 hours a day. I did get a bit of assistance from another sailor, in distracting them. They never attempted to physically assault me, and I did not assault them, it would have held me there for months awaiting mast.
On a Friday afternoon my orders were finally faxed, I was packed, with the assistance of a friend I got off that base and to the airport within a couple hours. [Navy orders customarily have 4 days 'proceed' time, which are separate from the travel time, to allow the servicemember to pack and to check-out from the previous command, and to ship household goods, etc] I was gone before those boneheads realized that I was gone. I would imagine that they had further ‘fun’ planned for me for over that coming weekend.
Within a couple years The Navigators were officially dis-banded. They proved to be a far greater danger to the Navy than any threat from any other cult.
However in 1993, when I reported onboard the USS Casimir Pulaski, the previous Protestant Lay-Leader had been a Navigator. During my check-in process the Boat’s XO made it clear that I would likely be assigned as their new Lay-Leader. But I told later that I had an interview with one of the Lts. When I did meet with him, I found that he had been their lay-leader. He interrogated me about my background, and beliefs for a couple of hours. He tried very hard to find something that he could use as hard evidence of why I should not be the Lay-leader. But by having my ordination, he really did not have anything other than the obvious differences between any two denominations. The CO did assign me as the Lay Leader, to perform all on-board Worship services for Protestants and LDS. Onboard I did find a lot of Navigator literature, which I destroyed.
:-)
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Oakspear
When unsucessful attempts are made to argue wayfers out of way-world, the wayfer is either unwilling to listen to any argument, or the argument is unpersuasive.
If the argument focusses on abuses or other questionable practices, the wayfer has either already heard about them, and dismissed them as either false or unimportant; or has not heard about them and will question the source of the accuser. It is very easy for a wayfer to deny the truth of any evidence presented, to label the victim as a disgruntled ex-wayfer who is "copped out", or as possessed.
Even if the wayfer believes that some or all of the accusations are true, it is possible to minimize them as abberations, or rationalize that the end justifies the means: these things are bad, but they taught me The Word.
Arguing against Way doctrine poses other problems. Much of what The Way is also believed by other denominations. The Unitarians and Jehovah's Winesses don't believe in the Trinity, Catholic charismatics, Pentecostals, and other denominations speak in tongues, many groups require tithing; Wierwille drew from so many sources that most of it isn't unique. Most wayfers learn early on to trust Wierwille's definitions and interpretations. Any dismantling of his doctrine will probably require relearning definitions of words that Wierwille changed. Heck, most of us were willing to accept his claim that "some old document", long since lost, was enough to document that illegitimate boys did the bar-mitzvah at age 12, despite any evidence to back up the claim, despite the bible not saying that what Jesus was doing at age 12 was a bar-mitvah...etc. We swallowed Wierwille's definitions of Greek words when we had a lexicon in our hands that defined them differently.
To get to the point: people aren't going to change their minds unless they are ready to change their minds. I wasn't ready to listen until I had reached a point where I had sufficient doubt in what I was hearing.
The end does not justify the means.
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Oakspear
Hell, there is ample documentation that numerous representatives of the Catholic Church in the U.S. sexually molested young boys and that their higher-ups swept it under the rug, and then moved them somewhere else where they could start again.
There have been convictions, more than can be said about the leaders of our little cult, not to mention the policy of burning heretics, and the like in centuries past.
Yet there are plenty of people who have no problem remaining Catholics.
But we weren't capable of making our own decisions
--> 
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learning
Garth, the post which contained the above quote was, well - bee-u-tiful
I could not agree more.
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Galen
Oakspear:
"When unsucessful attempts are made to argue wayfers out of way-world, the wayfer is either unwilling to listen to any argument, or the argument is unpersuasive."
I was possibly on the verge of being persuaded. I prayed a lot. I remember not really being able to think clearly about much of anything. I was just tired, and the more they talked and talked, got me more and more confused.
Much more and I would have likely began worshipping boot-polish if it got them to go away from me.
"If the argument focusses on abuses or other questionable practices, ..."
Having been raised in the Baptist church, I was fully familiar with the idea of ministers sneaking aroung with the church secratary or the town whores. About the time that I turned 18 I had been a member of a Methodist church, during the time-frame that se discovered that the conference that the churches paid tithes into had gone to South America and paid for guns for rebels who had recnetly killed a group of nuns in a mission.
So comparing abuses to abuses, I admit that I did not care.
"... the wayfer has either already heard about them."
I had.
"... and dismissed them as either false or unimportant;"
I dont think that it surprized me all that much, I think that on some level, I expected it from an upper level minister.
So I guess that is my label: dismissed them as unimportant.
"Much of what The Way is also believed by other denominations ..."
True.
:-)
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GarthP2000
Yet Another Tactic that isn't practiced in a legal competancy hearing, ....
... and another advantage that has over the kind of crap Galen went thru.
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Oakspear
Galen:
I wasn't clear that I was talking about non-deprogramming-type persuasion, such as a discussion over the kitchen table, or reading literature. Getting locked away and ganged up on necessarily introduces different circumstances.
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Galen
Oakspear:
"I wasn't clear that I was talking about non-deprogramming-type persuasion"
Okay
:-)
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Steve Swenton
I remember when I was stationed in Okinawa in 1975 hearing about the Navagators from some who were in our group - the Hansen Christian Center. I never actually met any of these Navigators myself, but I recall several of our group who had met them. They described them as completely paranoid "fundamental" fanatics. The type who would not bend in their beliefs at all, even when proven absolutely wrong. Because of these witnesses, most of us tended to avoid anyone calling themselves a Navigator.
With that in mind, it's a wonder they didn't break you, Galen, before you were transfered.
Just a thought...
Steve.
¥
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Galen
Steve Swenton:
"I remember ... the Navagators ... They described them as completely paranoid "fundamental" fanatics. The type who would not bend in their beliefs at all, even when proven absolutely wrong. Because of these witnesses, most of us tended to avoid anyone calling themselves a Navigator."
I was wondering if anyone else had heard of them, thank you for stepping forward with confirmation that such a group existed.
:-)
"With that in mind, it's a wonder they didn't break you, Galen, before you were transfered."
Thanx.
They say [No, I have no idea who 'they' are, it is just a common saying to say: "They say" ], that commonly people repeat their errors. Maybe not individuals, but at least within groups.
During my last tour 1997-2001, in Europe, it did appear that some brilliant Chaplain somewhere had discovered a vault filled with old 'Navigator' junk and that he had started spilling that junk out to his congregate.
We had a guy [did not work for me, this guy was in another section], who was among the 'later' version of Navigators. His Watch-Commander found him at 02:00 on post [he was assigned as gate-guard for one of our bases, Agnano], he had taken all his bullets out of his magazines, and lined them up on the window ledge of his guard-shack, he had his Bible out and he was preaching a sermon to those bullets. He had named his bullets, with the names of various Catholic 'saints', and he was preaching to them. His Watch-Commander stood there and let him finish his sermon, while someone else was on his way to take-over that guard-shack and releive the 'Navigator'. We never saw that 'Navigator' again.
:-)
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sadie
During a discussion with Stephen and Patty Faye Roberts the acts of deprogramming were also praticed by TWI. She admitted to me that TWI would go after the ones who were snatched by deprogrammers and brought back.
Why would TWI do this? Is it because those believers wanted to be in TWI and they were going to save them from evil spirits?
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Galen
sadie:
"During a discussion with Stephen and Patty Faye Roberts the acts of deprogramming were also praticed by TWI. She admitted to me that TWI would go after the ones who were snatched by deprogrammers and brought back."
Your saying that these two told you that:
1. TWI also practiced 'De-Programming' techniques?, and
2. that TWI would approach followers who had been 'de-programmed', to bring them back into fellowship?
If TWI did, I dont think that I have heard of it.
"Why would TWI do this? Is it because those believers wanted to be in TWI and they were going to save them from evil spirits?"
I understand that TWI used possible 'programming-techniques', I am not sure whether they ever tried to use any 'De-Programming-techniques'. But I have no idea of what was done at HQ.
Would TWI go after somenoe who had been 'successfully' De-Programmed? I would not imagine so.
If someone that I knew had been through a 'successful' de-programming, I could see where I might approach them to say "Hi", to see if they are okay, to ask if there was anything that I could do to help them. Food, water a chance to sleep, maybe bandages, would all be appropriate.
"Evil spirits"? I never heard about this one, it could be that I just was not a follower of TWI long enough [1979-1997].
:-)
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Lifted Up
I never heard of it either. I would be interested in hearing of one case when it DID happen.
It certainly didnt happen in my case. Not that there was any publicity involved in my case. But it didnt even happen after I accidently ran into BT, my former 8th corps bro in town a year or so after the event, while he was the local ruler of this state/region.
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