Obviously twi and it's cohorts have been guilty in every one of these guidelines. I think there could be some legal recourse in certain situations, especially ones that affect a person's physical health.
I would guess (not being a lawyer, nor playing one on teevee) that it would depend on several things, including what "paperwork" was filled out.
Was your business incorporated or otherwise operating "legally", or were you operating on a cash under the table basis?
When you sold the business were there legal documents drawn up? Was there a bill of sale of any kind for the tools? Was the 10% in perpetuity, or for a limited time?
I would imagine that if you didn't establish the paper trail, pay the right fees and taxes, etc, then there is no legal obligation to do anything. Moral and ethical is another matter.
I'm glad that the love makes up for the money. I'd prefer both :D-->
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Well, I'm not an attorney, Just Thinking. But my understanding is you don't have to be qualified to give out advice, people do it all the time.
It is when you ARE qualified and give out bad advice, that you get sued.
In other words, if Joe Neighbor was not working or educated in the legal profession and gave you bad legal advice, you can't sue him. BUT, if he was an attorney or paralegal and gave you bad advice, then you have grounds to sue.
These types of matters are usually governed by a "standard of care/duty of profession", which has to do with what one might reasonably expect from someone of equal education/knowledge/training, etc.
Otherwise, think of all the people who would be suing each other over bad advice.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
I have by-polar desease and was taking meds to controll it and when leadership found out I was told not advised to get off the meds and let God heal me. That almost killed me and ultimatly ruined my health. I was also told to stop taking my dilantin for a sezure disorder. Like an *** I did as I was told and started having grand mal seizures. The first one was on the top of bleachers at a little league game, only the quik thinking of the man next to me kept me from falling all the way down. I went back on my meds without telling anyone and the seizures and manic attacks stopped and they had the nerve to tell me it was thier prayers and beleiving that helped me.
HELPED ME? THEY ALMOST KILLED ME WITH THIER "i KNOW EVERYTHING " attitude.
Even there so called councelling screwed me up more than I was. They had no training in councelling a dog nevermind a human.
I beleive in Gods healing and have had his healing many times, but God also gave us Doctors.
oN A LIGHTER NOTE I remember when my brother broke his ankle and our limb leader ministered to him and wanted to take the cast off his leg my brother replyed get God to straigten your teeth first then I'll take the cast off. lol the leaders teeth are still crooked but my brothers ankle healed with the cast on. lol
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
As a student of Human Service, a helping profession, for the last 4 years, I now understand that twi has not clue one as to how to help professionally. All the books I've read, the texts I've studied, the practice sessions I've participated in and the tests that have been to determine understanding, again I say they are fulla poopy.
What I'm also interested in is the practicing of medicine without a medical license. Especially because it's that action has killed people. I pray for those that are on life support at twi and hope that twi doesn't pull the plug or cut off their oxygen. As it is, they are putting rotten food through their feeding tubes. How long till more die?
That is what I understood as well. There have been cases where religious institutions have been sued over harmful advice. My clearest memories though are of parents who denied their children medical care. Are you aware of cases like that where the church has been held liable as well? None come to mind for me. This line of thinking seems to be on more shaky ground than I thought. Thanks for the insight.
Another thought: Would the fact that they are in a position to give counsel bestow liability at all? It just seems odd that a person could be in such a trusted position and be so free to abuse it.
"There have been cases where religious institutions have been sued over harmful advice. My clearest memories though are of parents who denied their children medical care. Are you aware of cases like that where the church has been held liable as well?"
I know there have been instances where States have taken away a parents right to make medical decisions for their kids. Essentially, the State has authorized medical treatment, which the parents would not.
I think there have also been a few cases where parents were charged with crimes for refusing to allow their kid(s) needed medical treatment and the children died as a result.
I cannot think of a single case where the church was successfullly sued or criminally charged for teaching doctrine which was opposed to medical treatment. This doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't occurred. But I would think it would have been a pretty controversial case because of the separation of church and state.
"Another thought: Would the fact that they are in a position to give counsel bestow liability at all? It just seems odd that a person could be in such a trusted position and be so free to abuse it. "
It would be a very gray area of the law, again because of separation of church and state. Additionally, one might have to consider the type of training the individual "church leader" has received.
However, I do know in cases involving polygamy and Mormons, the State did overrule their religious freedom, so there is a degree of precedent there. But generally, the only time the state gets involved in the Mormon polygamy issue is when minors are involved. Such as when someone marries a minor or has so many children with so many different women he can't support them and they end up on welfare.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
[This message was edited by Abigail on December 15, 2003 at 4:53.]
I noticed in a recent post of yours here that bad advice from leadership in the area of ?medications versus believing? had hurt you. I've seen similar situations, myself, and sympathize with you.
Some consolation may be found in something I heard Dr. Wierwille say about this at the 1972 Rock of Ages. As the years progressed through the 70's leadership blew off many things Dr tried to teach them, and this is a good example.
At that 1972 Rock Dr announced an emergency meeting one afternoon at the racetrack (it was held at the County Fairgrounds that year).
After a large group assembled, Dr said that if anybody got healed there at the Rock, it was important for them to continue taking their medicine. If they were truly healed, AND their medicine started making them sick, AND their medical Doctor said so, THEN they should stop taking their medicine.
It was a ten minute meeting where he said the above with a few elaborations and repetitions, and then he disbursed the crowd.
The reason so much bad advice abounded in leadership is because from the top down, they all drifted from the Word Dr offered to teach them, and they drifted into their own broken cisterns of religion.
This drift was earlier and fiercer in the upper leadership, but all levels were eventually affected. Some individuals resisted the drift better than others, for a time, but by 1985 all the top leadership had totally rejected the authority God had invested in Dr, and thus had rejected God. In lower leadership levels the rejection, like where I resided, the drift was less fierce, but by the mid 90?s had come to the same practical endpoint.
The bad advice that abounded was a mere consequence of the drift from God?s Word. In the earlier years, and in the areas uncontaminated by the Corps, much good advice (like Dr?s 1972 Rock lecture on medicine) abounded in all levels of leadership.
When we come back to this Word we were taught and master it, we?ll gain the wisdom we?ve lacked in the past.
I fail to see any connection between your thoughts and what happened. If VPW were such a great leader, why would this topic rate "an emergency...ten minute meeting?" Ten minutes?! People are dying and we give it a whole ten minutes? We give a whole day EVERY YEAR to spring cleaning (Uncle Harry Day) but 600 seconds to this? No Sunday night service, no Way Mag articles, no letters from HQ?
In any large organization, if something is important, then leaders can do many things to emphasize change and make sure it occurs.
SUCCESSFUL and WELL RUN groups have faced less serious problems than people losing their lives, invested much more time than 10 minutes and succeeded in overcoming it. To me, this shows just how important the subject was to him. And how unimportant those poor people were.
One last thought. Can you give me a single date, location and verses taught where he addressed this subject in public? Surely, I must be wrong. Overeager TWI employees giving bad medical advice which actually KILLED people he loved so much? He must have done something in a public forum. Not in some vague, "if you read into it" way. Very specific and on this topic where he gives CLEAR direction.
Mike, didn't he?
[This message was edited by JustThinking on December 15, 2003 at 8:13.]
quote:After a large group assembled, Dr said that if anybody got healed there at the Rock, it was important for them to continue taking their medicine. If they were truly healed, AND their medicine started making them sick, AND their medical Doctor said so, THEN they should stop taking their medicine.
Far be it from me to defend TWI. But if we are to convict them, it should be for those things they are actually guilty of.
I don't know what VPW did or didn't teach on the subject. However, I do know LCM taught in his advance class that people should take medication if it is prescribed by a doctor. He also taught if one wasn't "healed" within 24 hours of any sickness, they should seek a doctor.
Now that is not what I saw practiced and taught in the field by leadership, but it was what LCM said.
The problem wasn't simply in the doctrine or even the practice, it was with the set up of the waytree. I saw it happen here more than once, where a leader would give someone bad advice and the person was either afraid to go over their head or tried and failed because leadership was so bent on backing each other up, regardless of cost, regardless of right or wrong.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
At that 1972 Rock Dr announced an emergency meeting one afternoon at the racetrack (it was held at the County Fairgrounds that year).
After a large group assembled, Dr said that if anybody got healed there at the Rock, it was important for them to continue taking their medicine. If they were truly healed, AND their medicine started making them sick, AND their medical Doctor said so, THEN they should stop taking their medicine.
If there were such a meeting, it would have to have been at ROA '75, at Lima. It seems to me that you've made quite a big deal about the grifter's written works, with a secondary emphasis on his tape recorded words. Now you want people to excuse him on the basis of your provably faulty memory? Ha! (Even if your memory were correct, which it isn't, Just Thinking's reply would apply.)
PS. The above doesn't indicate that I think TWI had legal liability for their teachings. Sometimes gullible fools, like most of us were, just have to take their lumps and go on, hopefully a little wiser.
From the "waybrain" thread", it occurred to me that TWI leaders may have given advice at times without proper qualification. Do we have any attorneys on this site? If so, would there be liablity there? If a Way employee advises someone to not seek medical care or take prescribed medication, does that make them and/or their employer liable?
We probably all have guesses. Let's see if we can hear from someone with a legal background.
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Nottawayfer
Three guidelines to live by:
1) Never tell anyone to marry someone.
2) Never tell anyone to get divorced.
3) Never tell anyone how to live their life.
Obviously twi and it's cohorts have been guilty in every one of these guidelines. I think there could be some legal recourse in certain situations, especially ones that affect a person's physical health.
Laughter is a tranquilizer with no side effects.
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JustThinking
My guess is that you did not learn that in the WC.
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Nottawayfer
Maybe we should send it to Gr*g B*lch*lk to give to the in rez people.
Laughter is a tranquilizer with no side effects.
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Oakspear
Roy:
I would guess (not being a lawyer, nor playing one on teevee) that it would depend on several things, including what "paperwork" was filled out.
Was your business incorporated or otherwise operating "legally", or were you operating on a cash under the table basis?
When you sold the business were there legal documents drawn up? Was there a bill of sale of any kind for the tools? Was the 10% in perpetuity, or for a limited time?
I would imagine that if you didn't establish the paper trail, pay the right fees and taxes, etc, then there is no legal obligation to do anything. Moral and ethical is another matter.
I'm glad that the love makes up for the money. I'd prefer both
:D-->
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Abigail
Well, I'm not an attorney, Just Thinking. But my understanding is you don't have to be qualified to give out advice, people do it all the time.
It is when you ARE qualified and give out bad advice, that you get sued.
In other words, if Joe Neighbor was not working or educated in the legal profession and gave you bad legal advice, you can't sue him. BUT, if he was an attorney or paralegal and gave you bad advice, then you have grounds to sue.
These types of matters are usually governed by a "standard of care/duty of profession", which has to do with what one might reasonably expect from someone of equal education/knowledge/training, etc.
Otherwise, think of all the people who would be suing each other over bad advice.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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wyteduv58
I have by-polar desease and was taking meds to controll it and when leadership found out I was told not advised to get off the meds and let God heal me. That almost killed me and ultimatly ruined my health. I was also told to stop taking my dilantin for a sezure disorder. Like an *** I did as I was told and started having grand mal seizures. The first one was on the top of bleachers at a little league game, only the quik thinking of the man next to me kept me from falling all the way down. I went back on my meds without telling anyone and the seizures and manic attacks stopped and they had the nerve to tell me it was thier prayers and beleiving that helped me.
HELPED ME? THEY ALMOST KILLED ME WITH THIER "i KNOW EVERYTHING " attitude.
Even there so called councelling screwed me up more than I was. They had no training in councelling a dog nevermind a human.
I beleive in Gods healing and have had his healing many times, but God also gave us Doctors.
oN A LIGHTER NOTE I remember when my brother broke his ankle and our limb leader ministered to him and wanted to take the cast off his leg my brother replyed get God to straigten your teeth first then I'll take the cast off. lol the leaders teeth are still crooked but my brothers ankle healed with the cast on. lol
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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Shellon
As a student of Human Service, a helping profession, for the last 4 years, I now understand that twi has not clue one as to how to help professionally. All the books I've read, the texts I've studied, the practice sessions I've participated in and the tests that have been to determine understanding, again I say they are fulla poopy.
What I'm also interested in is the practicing of medicine without a medical license. Especially because it's that action has killed people. I pray for those that are on life support at twi and hope that twi doesn't pull the plug or cut off their oxygen. As it is, they are putting rotten food through their feeding tubes. How long till more die?
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JustThinking
Abigail
That is what I understood as well. There have been cases where religious institutions have been sued over harmful advice. My clearest memories though are of parents who denied their children medical care. Are you aware of cases like that where the church has been held liable as well? None come to mind for me. This line of thinking seems to be on more shaky ground than I thought. Thanks for the insight.
Another thought: Would the fact that they are in a position to give counsel bestow liability at all? It just seems odd that a person could be in such a trusted position and be so free to abuse it.
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Abigail
"There have been cases where religious institutions have been sued over harmful advice. My clearest memories though are of parents who denied their children medical care. Are you aware of cases like that where the church has been held liable as well?"
I know there have been instances where States have taken away a parents right to make medical decisions for their kids. Essentially, the State has authorized medical treatment, which the parents would not.
I think there have also been a few cases where parents were charged with crimes for refusing to allow their kid(s) needed medical treatment and the children died as a result.
I cannot think of a single case where the church was successfullly sued or criminally charged for teaching doctrine which was opposed to medical treatment. This doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't occurred. But I would think it would have been a pretty controversial case because of the separation of church and state.
"Another thought: Would the fact that they are in a position to give counsel bestow liability at all? It just seems odd that a person could be in such a trusted position and be so free to abuse it. "
It would be a very gray area of the law, again because of separation of church and state. Additionally, one might have to consider the type of training the individual "church leader" has received.
However, I do know in cases involving polygamy and Mormons, the State did overrule their religious freedom, so there is a degree of precedent there. But generally, the only time the state gets involved in the Mormon polygamy issue is when minors are involved. Such as when someone marries a minor or has so many children with so many different women he can't support them and they end up on welfare.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
[This message was edited by Abigail on December 15, 2003 at 4:53.]
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Abigail
duplicate - sorry
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JustThinking
Abigail,
Thank you for the insight. It seems like this is an example of despicable but, in the end, legal abuse of people.
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Mike
Hi wytedove58,
I noticed in a recent post of yours here that bad advice from leadership in the area of ?medications versus believing? had hurt you. I've seen similar situations, myself, and sympathize with you.
Some consolation may be found in something I heard Dr. Wierwille say about this at the 1972 Rock of Ages. As the years progressed through the 70's leadership blew off many things Dr tried to teach them, and this is a good example.
At that 1972 Rock Dr announced an emergency meeting one afternoon at the racetrack (it was held at the County Fairgrounds that year).
After a large group assembled, Dr said that if anybody got healed there at the Rock, it was important for them to continue taking their medicine. If they were truly healed, AND their medicine started making them sick, AND their medical Doctor said so, THEN they should stop taking their medicine.
It was a ten minute meeting where he said the above with a few elaborations and repetitions, and then he disbursed the crowd.
The reason so much bad advice abounded in leadership is because from the top down, they all drifted from the Word Dr offered to teach them, and they drifted into their own broken cisterns of religion.
This drift was earlier and fiercer in the upper leadership, but all levels were eventually affected. Some individuals resisted the drift better than others, for a time, but by 1985 all the top leadership had totally rejected the authority God had invested in Dr, and thus had rejected God. In lower leadership levels the rejection, like where I resided, the drift was less fierce, but by the mid 90?s had come to the same practical endpoint.
The bad advice that abounded was a mere consequence of the drift from God?s Word. In the earlier years, and in the areas uncontaminated by the Corps, much good advice (like Dr?s 1972 Rock lecture on medicine) abounded in all levels of leadership.
When we come back to this Word we were taught and master it, we?ll gain the wisdom we?ve lacked in the past.
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JustThinking
Mike,
I fail to see any connection between your thoughts and what happened. If VPW were such a great leader, why would this topic rate "an emergency...ten minute meeting?" Ten minutes?! People are dying and we give it a whole ten minutes? We give a whole day EVERY YEAR to spring cleaning (Uncle Harry Day) but 600 seconds to this? No Sunday night service, no Way Mag articles, no letters from HQ?
In any large organization, if something is important, then leaders can do many things to emphasize change and make sure it occurs.
SUCCESSFUL and WELL RUN groups have faced less serious problems than people losing their lives, invested much more time than 10 minutes and succeeded in overcoming it. To me, this shows just how important the subject was to him. And how unimportant those poor people were.
One last thought. Can you give me a single date, location and verses taught where he addressed this subject in public? Surely, I must be wrong. Overeager TWI employees giving bad medical advice which actually KILLED people he loved so much? He must have done something in a public forum. Not in some vague, "if you read into it" way. Very specific and on this topic where he gives CLEAR direction.
Mike, didn't he?
[This message was edited by JustThinking on December 15, 2003 at 8:13.]
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oldiesman
Mike, thanks for mentioning this incident.
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Abigail
Far be it from me to defend TWI. But if we are to convict them, it should be for those things they are actually guilty of.
I don't know what VPW did or didn't teach on the subject. However, I do know LCM taught in his advance class that people should take medication if it is prescribed by a doctor. He also taught if one wasn't "healed" within 24 hours of any sickness, they should seek a doctor.
Now that is not what I saw practiced and taught in the field by leadership, but it was what LCM said.
The problem wasn't simply in the doctrine or even the practice, it was with the set up of the waytree. I saw it happen here more than once, where a leader would give someone bad advice and the person was either afraid to go over their head or tried and failed because leadership was so bent on backing each other up, regardless of cost, regardless of right or wrong.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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LG
PS. The above doesn't indicate that I think TWI had legal liability for their teachings. Sometimes gullible fools, like most of us were, just have to take their lumps and go on, hopefully a little wiser.
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JustThinking
Long Gone,
And hopefully still alive.
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Grace Valerie Claire
JT, good question!
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